How to approach and develop relationships with procurement, with Jessica Bowler & Iris Gatzweiler
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Transcript:Welcome to episode nine. I'm continuing the theme today of talking directly to clients to understand their perspective on working with creative agencies, and particularly how agency account managers can help enhance relationships. So today's guests are Iris Gatzweiler and Jess Bowler, both of whom work for a global pharmaceutical company in the procurement team, both of whom have a huge amount of experience dealing with agency relationships. So in this episode, we discuss what procurement look for in long term agency suppliers, where procurement see value in agency account management, and how to ensure you keep the relationship on track, advice for how to approach procurement for the first time if you have no relationship currently, why involving procurement in how you expand your relationship within the company makes total sense and how procurement make an agency selection and how you can stand out from the crowd. There are so many golden nuggets in this episode, I really hope you're going to come away with some value areas. Iris and Jess are very generous with their time and their insight and sharing some examples of both good practice and also some things to avoid. So grab a pen and enjoy this episode, I’ll go straight over now. Jenny: So I'm delighted to welcome Iris and Jess. Iris and Jess both hold senior procurement roles for a global pharmaceutical company. And the reason I've invited them on today is that I believe that agency account managers need to have a better understanding of how their clients work. And also to understand the role of procurement. Because I think sometimes procurement is treated a bit revered, you know, we can't possibly approach them or talk to them, we don't quite know how to manage that relationship. So the reason I've invited Jess and Iris on is to really share some insight into their everyday role. And also some ideas maybe for how agencies can optimise the relationship with procurement, how to approach them, how to deal with them, how to manage the relationship. So I want to hand over to my guests so that they can spend a couple of minutes just talking a bit about their background, and also their experience of working with agencies. So Iris, can I start with you? Iris: Sure. Thank you, Jenny. So yeah, Iris is my name. I have nearly 20 years of experience in procurement, mostly in the pharmaceutical industry a little bit in FMCG, when I started my career. And I've had various types of roles in the local market and cluster markets, or in regional roles, and also in different parts of the world. And currently, I'm based in Asia. I've managed personally, marketing, procurement and agencies since the beginning of my career really. And since the last five to six years, it's more about managing a team. So it's my team being operationally involved with the agencies, managing the relationships with the agencies on a day to day level. Nevertheless, I'm still involved in some of the strategic aspects like QBR meetings, evaluation meetings, and some of the strategic reviews that we do. Jenny: Fantastic. Thanks, Sarah. That's brilliant. Jess? JessicaL Sure, hi, Jessica here. And I have been working in healthcare for over 20 years, and in pharmaceuticals for the majority of that, and in terms of marketing agencies and the operations with that about the last 12 to 13 years. Before that I managed other categories within medical and marketing, for procurement as well. And for me, it's nuts to bolts marketing agencies, from bringing them in to evaluating them to having the tough conversations, and I really enjoy the partnership. Jenny: Amazing. I mean, I can see that you're both hugely experienced. So I'm quite excited about diving into my questions. Now I think the other thing to mention is Iris and I met many years ago when she was working for another pharma company. And we kind of hit it off, didn't we Iris and it's testament to the fact that you're here now that we've continued that relationship so it was successful. So Jess, first for you a quick question. What for you is a good solid, long term agency partnership? Jess: Sure, that's a great question, Jenny. For me, the most important thing is trust, I think it's really, really important to sort of build that foundation of relationship. And without trust, you really can't build that foundation. For me in the job I currently hold long term relationships are key, we don't want to be looking for new agencies all the time. So again, it's just building that foundation. And you know, problems will come up, right. So it's about being proactive, catching them early, working together in that partnership, to come to resolution, whatever that might be and remembering that it's business and not personal. So especially when you're asking an agency maybe to rearrange their people. It's not easy, these conversations are tough. But at the end of the day, they only make the partnership stronger. You have to feel like you're on the same team, working for the same goals. And you know, the lines do get a little bit blurred in terms of agency and pharma, in terms of you’re that kind of partnership. Jenny: Brilliant answer, Jess, and interesting that you talk about sometimes tough conversations to be had with an agency or, you know, making sure that you and the agency are on the same page? Principally, who do you tend to have the contact with? Is it the account management team or is it the agency leadership team typically? Jess: Sure, it really depends on the situation at hand. But certainly both those people are always involved in those types of tough conversations. It also depends on that agency and the relationship that we have with them. But I would say the majority of the time for us, it is the agency lead overseeing our company that we reach out to first and sort of brainstorm about the best way to then go speak to the account management about it. Because you want to make sure that you're doing that in the best possible way, again, not offending anyone reminding them that it's business, but I think it's important to have both those lines of communication open. So again, I tend to go to the lead first, and then we have the conversation together with the account management. Jenny: Great. I mean, from what you've just said, I'm assuming that many times where those tough conversations need to be had, does it involve the account management team? Jess: It can, I think more times than not, you know, it's an issue we're seeing with creative, or it's an issue we're seeing with managing the budget. So it's not always with the account manager per se, I've seen that. And when you have that kind of issue, that you would really, you know, have to talk to the agency lead about and let them handle that internally. But a lot of times if it's with a specific person on the team, or say we have a vacancy, or sometimes it's an uptick, you know, as we're heading, say, to a launch, and we don't feel like we have enough support. So again, it's just trying to be proactive about whatever the issue is, and making sure that we resolve it as quickly as possible. I always say that cracks come first. And if you don't sort of fix the cracks, then the foundation starts to crumble. So the minute you see an issue, even if it seems super tiny, and it's getting marketers to come forward and tell you about the small issues, because small issues become big issues. Jenny: This is brilliant Jess, this is really useful. I know, I'm going a little bit granular. I'm just curious to know, is the fact that your marketing team flags an issue to you mean that it's got that bad? i.e, do you usually find that most day to day issues can be resolved between the marketing team and the agency? So does it have to get quite bad before you're involved? Or is there just that flow of communication between you? Jess: Yeah, um, no, I appreciate the granularity, Jenny, I think that it really depends on your relationship with the marketer, because I've been where I've been for so long, and I've managed some of these people, maybe they've switched brands, but I've been with them for a long time. And I try up front, you know, during the pitch process to say, if you see little problems, just make me aware, even if you're going to handle them on your own, I just want to be aware. So if the issue which hopefully it won't, starts to snowball, and get bigger than I've been made aware through the whole process, so that when it is time for me to jump in, I would love them to handle it on their own, I think it's important part of them building the relationship. And I have a saying, you know, where I like to talk about, you know, we sort of tried to fix it as quickly as we can. And if that's the marketer fixing it on their own, and just making me aware, that's fine. If the marketer wants my support, you know, I always say to the marketer, I want you to build the relationship, but I don't want you to do anything to hurt your relationship. So if you're starting to have a conversation that you feel like might hurt, then I want to take it up a level to my agency contact, and I want to start that conversation for you. Jenny: Hmm, sounds very sensible. Iris, can I just direct a couple of questions to you, what value do you see in the actual account management team, because many of my listeners are in the account management team, and they are responsible, really for developing and growing the relationship on behalf of the agency. They're the ambassador, let's say. So what do you see as the key value for the procurement department that an agency account manager can bring? Iris: Thank you, Jenny, I think this is a great question. And for me, first and foremost, the account manager is something like a conductor, you know, it's really the person who orchestrates everything, especially inside the agency, and then with the client, you know, they need to really be well connected. They need to be empathetic, they need to understand where different people are coming from, you know, they have to deal inside the agency with a lot of different roles and a different people. And then they have the clients. So for me, the agency client relationship is all about people. It's about chemistry, you know, if you have that chemistry, yes, you mentioned at the beginning, you know, you and I, I think we had a level of chemistry straight away, which helped us to be and establish a successful relationship. So for me, that's key, you know, we're in the people business, whatever, you may say, a client agency relationship is all about people. To Jess’s point, I think that account manager needs to be very present to pick up any little things that may happen. Because I totally agree with Jess even little things that go wrong, especially when it's a new account, we have to fix them straight up, we'll have to bring them up straight away, because if we let them go, they will escalate, they will bubble up and become a much bigger issue to deal with. So I think that account manager for me, when I see them working at their best is when they have been very present to the client and wanting to have feedback all the time. And you know, they're ready to hear the small things that involves a lot of transparency and honest conversation from both sides. So again, they must not be offended, or, you know, take a defensive stance, when we bring this up and say, Oh, you know, it's my agent, you know, it's, they need to be quite factual. They need to listen, they need to go and of course, hear the other side of the story. And I've seen a comment just becoming quite offensive, of course, I want to defend their business. But I think someone who can really, you know, see, both sides of the story, for me brings the most value to such as such a relationship. Yeah, and transparency, because they sometimes have to admit that things have gone wrong on their side. But also, it's not always the agency fault, by far, you know, and it's also for us to be able to say, yeah, maybe this brief hasn't been as strong as it could have been, or they haven't been able to really express our needs. So I'm always saying to marketers, the agencies don't have a crystal ball, if you don't, you know, express your needs clearly, you can't expect that they can just, you know, read in your mind and come up with the perfect solution for you. Jenny: That's a really good point. I'm going to direct the same question that we asked Jess, Jess mentioned, that sometimes issues arise around creative work or budget. Those are the two things Jess mentioned. In your experience, what are the most common issues that you see with agency client relationships? Iris: I think the creative like Jess mentioned already is in because it's something about expectation management, you know, you people go in with different expectations when it comes to creative and sometimes you know, the agency hits it, sometimes the agency is just about on point, and sometimes the person had an expectation that is not met. So that can be sometimes challenging. The other areas, for me are more like ways of working, you know, operational topics that if you don't say at the beginning how you want to work together, then it can cause you know, frustrations, you know, some people like to, you know, jump on a call, some people want to have an email, read through and then respond. So you have to basically establish some ground rules and say, how do we want to work together? What's our operating model ways of working? And I think if that's clear, then it's a lot less issues or problems that I have been observing. Jenny: So this has come up a lot then expectation management and setting ground rules from the beginning. Do you find generally this is directed at both of you really, the agencies don't do a very thorough job of setting the ground rules, or how this is going to work or how we're going to run this account, how we're going to make sure that we're communicating with you in the way that you would like us to communicate etc? Iris: It's probably not the first discussion or the topic that is top of their mind when it comes to starting an account. But I think that's what I feel that procurement, we can add value and have a role and we can force that discussion and say, you know, it's not the sexy topic. It's not about the creative it's not but let's sit down and have a conversation how we going to run the account, what works for whom alternating escalation is super important, because the last thing you want to see is like this email being sent to, you know, everyone in the agency, everyone in the company at a very high level, you know, you should understand you can make certain decisions and who should be a point of escalation, you know, depending on what issues we're incurring. And I feel if that's kind of set out at the beginning, then that usually, again, everybody knows what to expect. I'm not saying that it works perfectly. But you have to force that discussion a bit. And I think I see this as part of our role, it doesn't necessarily come natural to the agency or the marketeers. So we might be forcing that discussion a bit. But I think it adds value later down the line.  Jenny: Very much so. Do you feel the same, Jess? Jess: Yep. I agree with everything Iris said. And I would say I think we've gotten better at it. Right? As our roles have evolved, I think we've gotten better at making sure we say to the marketers, this is important out of the gate, and I think our agencies that we've worked with, for longer periods of time, have gotten better at it as well and see it as something they expect to do, especially when they have a new account, or people change, right, you need to change those expectations when people change on the accounts as well. I think when newer agencies come into our fold, it's really important that we sort of train them to do that, because they might not do that with all the different companies that they work with. Most of these agencies span across, you know, not just pharmaceuticals, but other industries. And you know, I'm sure we all work a little bit differently. But I think really managing that upfront, and establishing those ways of working, like Aaron said, you know, do they prefer an email? Do they prefer a phone call? If you're going to tell them some bad news? Do they want it over email first. And so I think it's just it all comes back to what we talked about in the beginning to partnership, right? And knowing that every team probably will want to work a little bit differently. Jenny: Before we leave this topic of just general sort of roles and responsibilities in agencies, I want to pick up on the creative part, because I know that creative directors also tune into this. And I think partly I suppose because there's a certain amount of intangibility about creativeness, isn't there? What do you believe, to avoid mismanagement of expectations in terms of creative? What could agencies be doing better in that sort of creative development process to set and manage expectations? Jess: So I think it's like many of the things we've spoken about it is really that open two way communication. And I know typically, agencies come forward with tissues before they present the real creative. But I think it's even meeting prior to that having, you know, an idea session, just to make sure you're headed down the right road, right. Because when you're working in, you know, whatever you want to call it, a war room of such, where you're developing creative, which is obviously different now, in the land of COVID, they're doing those types of sessions remotely, which I'm sure is not easy for them. But you know, there's certain things that they need to hit, especially for pharmaceuticals with regard to our strategy and things they're able to say. So sometimes pie in the sky isn't quite right with like our legal or medical. So I do think it's having those checkpoints along the way, just to make sure you're not headed down the wrong road, you don't want your agency to go down a rabbit hole, and then the tissues and then the main creative and you're completely off track, because then you're starting over.    Jenny: Fantastic advice. Really, really useful. Thank you for sharing. Let's talk a bit about agency selection when you're selecting an agency for the first time. And this is kind of directed at both of you. How do you go about that process of selecting an agency? Iris: So maybe I’ll start and I’ll really cover this question more from sort of a local or regional point of view. So within the company, there's, you know, certain strategies, and agencies are certainly an area where we, you know, we have done a lot of work in the past. So we have good, what we call a category strategy, which kind of gives a little bit of a playbook to our regions and our markets. So certain choices, we can only make them within boundaries of global strategy. And other areas were a little bit more flexible. So on a local and regional point of view, it's a mixture between, you know, following a brand and an agency of record all the way through to the local or regional level, and then where it's more local work, also someone who has to be to understand the local culture, the local language needs to then would we call transcreate or translate really that material more into what is going to work in the local market? So we definitely have a combination here and of course, we have what's a different maturity. You know, I'm I told you before that I'm currently based in Asia and we have very mature markets in Asia with a lot of agencies present then we have other markets where, you know, agencies are not as mature. And you know, they're doing pretty much everything that can be doing the printing, they're doing a one stop shop. But that's maybe what is needed for that market.  Jenny: Great. And what about for you, Jess? Jess: Sure, I'll take it from a different standpoint, just because my role is slightly different. I come at it more from either North America or global. And for me, it really depends on the product, we're looking at the geographic reach, I need the therapeutic expertise, the correct size for the business, because no products are the same, where they are in the lifecycle. And we have everything from, you know, niche to large. And it really is finding that right fit, because I don't want to try to make a match. That's a mismatch. So it's really using the knowledge that I have both about my agencies, as well as the knowledge I have about the brand. And trying to marry that forward. We also take into account, previous track record, you know, how have they done in the past with these types of brands or situations or the need that I have? It's very important to look historically, it's not always completely accurate predictor, but it is it is a good predictor. And it's what we utilise, and it works for us. Jenny: And do you tend to put it out to tender through like a middle person that would find that agency for you? Or do you principally look at your current agency records, and then decide from there, Jess: We have pretty robust lists. So we tend to go off those lists. But let's say you are looking for something new and different, you know, I might end up you know, doing some research, talking to other procurement colleagues inside and outside of my company, it really depends on the need. But for the most part, I would say for the needs that we have, we do have lists in place. Jenny: Okay, great, because I'm sure there's some agencies that are listening, thinking, I would love to work with a global pharma company, you know, and I think I've got something a little bit different, you know, how would I even begin to be considered, maybe because they are very specialist. And maybe it's a new technology or some kind of expertise that's very sort of digitally focused, that's just emerging. So what advice would you give for a company like that that wanted to get themselves on your radar? Jess: Sure, that's a great question, Jenny. I think a lot of people get intimidated, but they shouldn't. Because there's a lot of great tools out there from LinkedIn, obviously, which is a great tool, and I get a lot of LinkedIn invitations or emails sent to me, I do also get cold calls and what I would call a cold email. And I'll tell you that our needs are changing all the time, right, the marketing landscape is changing all the time. So I do have different needs all the time. And our brands are, you know, no two are alike. So I definitely read those emails, I read the messages. And I have a folder where I keep everything, if it's something I think is coming down the pipe, or something I might need relatively soon, I'll respond, I'll set up a meeting, either for myself. I tend to do a pre screen just to make sure it's a good fit for us. And then we'll meet with my larger team, so that we have it on the radar. We also keep slide decks of capabilities on agencies and I have to tell you more and more, we've been really relying on them. So I don't think that people should feel like they shouldn't reach out. I think it depends on the time of year as well, like right now is a very busy time of year. So it would probably be very difficult for a new agency or provider of any kind to get someone's attention. But the beginning of the year, and then once I speak to an agency, and I think it might be something really promising. I asked them to communicate with me, quarterly, or twice a year, we set up a cadence that makes sense , a check in to see you know, if I have anything on the horizon. It's good for me because it allows them to stay top of mind for me, I don't want to forget them. And I think people would be surprised to know how often we do sort of go off our preferred list and bring new entities in. Jenny: I think this is phenomenal. Actually, for those that are listening thinking, wow, maybe I do have a chance. I mean, the fact that you've said actually I'm very open to it. And I'm I'm willing to kind of listen to everyone and receive cold calls. Iris? Iris: Yeah, just to add something because I think it's an area where we have to get better. And I think as a company this year, we've done a couple of things. In my region in particular, we've done a project to see how we can use technology also a little bit better for this because not everyone is organised as Jess, you know, has folders and I know I have sort of agency contacts a little bit all over the place and then I'm not necessarily going to the right place when I need them. So we're looking at getting technology in place where we can open up a platform to agencies to register themselves. They will have to kind of go through a couple of hurdles and give us a little bit upfront information. But once they're in there, you know, we'll really screen also what their capabilities are that they have the ability to attach them slide decks or testimonials. So I think that is something that we're hoping to develop further, because I think it would be really great, especially also in a region like, now, Asia where some agencies bridge more than one market. So if we have visibility, whether they can do, you know, serve a couple of markets, then that's another plus. And we can see that because we have the visibility in the tool. And I know in the local market, also people, my colleagues, they invite agencies for supplier days. And that's been quite successful. And that has been particularly successful when we were looking for something new, innovative, like niche technologies that have a lot of around digital, of course, any kind of AI virtual reality, these kind of things. So, to Jess’s point, you know, don't be intimidated, it is happening. And I think we're getting better at keeping the information and pulling the information out when we need it. Jenny: Thank you for sharing that. I think that's super organised, actually having a tool that  sounds the perfect solution, because like just said, the needs are changing. So therefore, it might not be the right time now, but who's to say that's not going to change? Just picking up on this theme about people approaching you? Jess you sounded so open to everyone approaching you. But I'm sure there are approaches and approaches like the wrong way to do it and the right way, can you share some tips for anyone that's thinking of approaching you? Jess: Sure, I agree with you, right, there's always a good and bad approach to everything that we all do as humans. So I think it's being careful not to be too aggressive. And knowing that it's okay to send a reminder, but I would say if you know, if someone hasn't gotten back to you, after two approaches, you should probably back off for a little while, it’s either not the right time or not the right fit. And I think, you know, it's just people being natural and friendly and asking for that opportunity. And what I've been doing a lot lately is I can't give you an hour of my time. 30 minutes is even really tough right now, given that we're in Q4, but 15 minutes is a good snapshot of who an agency is, and if they would be the right fit for where I work. So I've been doing that a lot, lately, I've been responding and saying, hey, can give you 15 minutes on that, again, it's like a pre screen. And then for a lot of those that have been coming up, I've been setting up meetings for January, February, March for my larger team, as Iris said, you know, mostly in sort of those new innovation and digital areas. It's interesting to hear what's new and what's coming. It's just not a perfect time for that right now. Jenny: Great tips. Thank you so much. Let's turn our attentions away from new business. And let's talk about the existing client agency relationships you have, because I'm really I'm really keen to kind of ask you both what kind of stands out for you in terms of a well performing agency? You know, that's been with you a while. And, you know, how do they continually stand out from the rest of the agencies? Jess: Sure. So I think for me, it's managing the business you have as well as being proactive about new business, and they think you're only as good as your business is today. So I don't really want an agency who's after the next piece of business, if something is struggling in their current portfolio. For me, also, it goes back to you know, sort of how we started the meeting with that honest, open two way communication. I think Iris really had it right when she spoke about the fact that we're not perfect, either. It's a two way street. And we need to make sure that we're setting our expectations that we're treating our agencies well. For us, it's really important to maintain the relationships we have, let's be honest, the RFP process is not easy. It's time consuming. It's laborious. And we have to do it sometimes. But fixing what we have before we go and try to bring in a new agency is really important to me personally, it speaks to sort of those staff changes that we should do sooner than later if we’re seeing a problem. If there's budgetary concerns, we should speak about them as quickly as possible. If creative doesn't go well, you know, I've had agency say, you know, that just didn't go well. So that one is on us. And we're going to do a new round. And that's what you'll be paying for. Sometimes you need to bring higher leadership in, you know, things just aren't going right. And a lot of times our agencies will say we're going to give you this person for a period of time, and it's on us. I think little things like that go a long way to that partnership. Jenny: I think that's great advice. And I'm sure a lot of agencies are thinking yeah, that makes total sense. It shows that trust building, doesn't it in the collaboration element, era, see where you're going to say something to add Iris: Maybe just one point to add. I think you can really see an agency's enthusiastic about working with you or not, and also about the brands. And let's not forget, you know, we’re pharmaceutical and we have, in the last couple of years really made sure, again that we talked about the patient. And I think when the agency also brings in that patient perspective, and is really passionate about what together, as you know, client and agency we can do to make things better for patients. That's when I see especially in our world a real difference. And so when I see this enthusiasm, and I see like sparkles in people's eyes when they talk about our product, you know, this, for me makes a huge difference between someone who just sees us as a client and a brand as a job or someone who's passionate about the brand and the entire supply chain and actually hits the patient. Jenny: I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because there's a couple of agencies that spring to mind that really do have this purpose angle, you know, and for personal reasons, one owner lost his father to cancer, and is very much driven by that he's in healthcare communications. Another partnership I'm thinking of they have a doctor in the family and health has always been part of their lives. And, again, it's very much about doing the right thing for the patient. So do you think that's become more important for companies, big companies like yours, to actually work with partners that do have that purpose behind them? Iris: Personally, I think yes, but Jess might have a bit of a different route, because she sees the bigger picture. But I think in market, that's definitely more important these days, Jess: I would definitely agree, I think it's so important. And I think it comes through in everything that they do. You know, we live in a world where everyone in some way, shape or form has been impacted by cancer, or some other disease. And it doesn't take much for them to find an example of how it's impacted their life. And I think you start to see that come through and how they feel about the product. You see it through the creative, it's great to see that passion, I think they have to have that passion in order to do a great job and be a great partner. So I think it's a great point, Jenny. Jenny: Fantastic. That's good to hear. And turning our attention specifically to the account management role. One of the key roles that they have is to develop relationships, not just with their marketing team, but with the procurement team. So can you give me some examples of where agencies do that really well, or how procurement facilitate that relationship to sort of happen? Jess? Jenny: Sure. I think that it's really important that that's done in conjunction with procurement. I think that whatever senior level person, we're talking about senior director, Executive Vice President, I think they like to do it hand in hand with us. So that it's not ever seen in the outside world as given preferential treatment. But let's be honest, people move around agencies over the life of their career, and they bring those relationships forward. So I think it is about utilising procurement, either in those meetings, or giving us a heads up that you're having those meetings, don't go behind our back, it's great to try to forge them. And I think to also remember that every leader is different. So while some leaders appreciate those relationships, and having those contacts, others may refer you back to procurement. And I think you have to be okay with the fact and respect the boundaries of how certain people work. That's their way of working. And being respectful of that. Jenny: That's really good advice, Jess actually, is it the same for yours? Would you say in your experience? Iris: Yeah, definitely. I think agencies have gotten better at this and they’ve seen the value that procurement can bring. So I think today, they do come to us, and they ask us, you know, how to approach people in the company. And I think that that's not doing that, because to Jess's point, not everyone has, you know, the door open, it's not always a good time for a leader, you know, we can really facilitate that. One of the things that I love about procurement still today is that we have so many different touch points in the company, we are connected with everyone, we're connected to the assistants, we're connected to leadership team, you know, if it's not me personally, and someone else in the organisation who can facilitate that. So I think it's a shame if agencies don't take advantage of that kind of pivotal role that we have to play and we can advise and connect them. And we can also advise on the best way to approach these people. And usually, you know, we can say we can set up a meeting, we can facilitate a meeting or it's better to send this person an email or I would wait till you know, the operating plan is done and they will be much more receptive again. These are the things that you know, we know because we know how the company functions and you know, if they don't listen to that, and if they're not receptive to that feedback, then you know, they can burn bridges very quickly. Jenny: I think this is fantastic advice because I know having spoken to , I train my account accelerator programme, I'm talking to agencies all the time. Some don't even have a relationship with procurement. You know, and they've been working with their companies for years. So I think this is a really good reminder, if you don't currently have a relationship with the procurement team, then, you know, aim to have one. And to that point, what would you suggest the first approach. You mentioned before Iris having QBR meetings, quarterly business review meetings? How would I go about, as an account manager that doesn't have a relationship with procurement? Sort of how do I go about sort of setting that up? Iris: Well for me, I think they should request whoever is in charge of the meeting, maybe you know, just to point out, wouldn't it be useful or good if we invite procurement? And again, Jess and I, we work in an organisation where this function is very established and is quite mature. And that might not necessarily the case the case everywhere. So it could be that the marketing team has actually never really thought about procurement or  engaging procurement than any of these discussions. So it could be a way for the agency to bring it up. It could also be, you know, for them to reach out and say, again, if they haven't have the relationship yet, say to marketing, we believe it would be good to build those relationships with your procurement department, could you maybe introduce us to them and then have a short discussion because, of course, it's a different, you know, we're discussing different things with the agency than the marketeers. And I think that's, again, the value, you know, we're coming from a different point of view. So we can, you know, we can facilitate many things, we can remove obstacles, we can sometimes have that tough discussion on behalf of marketing so that they preserve the relationship. So it's usually in my opinion can only be beneficial. Having said that, they might not find that the procurement team is ready for that. I can’t comment on that. But I think it would be good if they seek out the relationship and read out why existing contacts and want to build that relationship. Jenny: I think it's great advice. Just a point, do you get involved in the actual QPR meetings yourself? Jess: I do. Um, we're set up in a way we're responsible for certain suppliers. And we run those QB RS for those suppliers we’re responsible for. And during that, obviously, we speak about the accounts that they have and how they're performing. We also talk about innovation, things that might have been done differently over the past year, whether it be for us, or for other companies that they work with, that we might want to think about doing ourselves. It's a two way street. It's a lengthy meeting. It's part of that partnership, you know, we speak, they speak, we know we're not perfect, we are looking for feedback in those meetings. The other thing that we do is, you know, there's a lot of M&A in this industry. And so during that, we always give them time to show us any new capabilities, new companies they have acquired something else, we might think about something they think we might need down the road. So I think all the components, you know, are really, really helpful. Just to go back to your prior point, Jenny, I think sometimes people arrive at our company with suppliers they might have worked with before, especially agencies, and maybe they don't work with our company. So I think it's really important when you meet that internal customer, most likely a marketer, and they bring forward a company that they're interested in, that you get them to make that introduction, you start having those conversations, because if it's something they're going to try to bring forward to where they are now, it's important that we get ahead of that relationship. They do need us as their partner as much as they need their agency, we really see that as a two way street Jenny: Great advice. Thank you so much. Honestly, this is just gold, I think really, really valuable. So just sort of coming to the end of our interview, sadly, cos I'm sure we could go on all day. How would you say that the role of procurement is changing? Jess, can I direct that one to you? Jess: Sure. I think it evolves every day, right? And it changes year over a year, I've been here long enough to see it change. I think we really now have a seat at the table. I think we're extremely valued by our customers, they truly see us as a partner, the way they see our suppliers as a partner. And that wasn't always the case. I'm very proud of it. I think, as Iris said, we're very mature organisation. So I think we're fortunate that way, it took us a long time to get here. And you can't rush that process. But you know, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of the relationships I have. I love that my marketers feel that they can come to me and tell me anything. You know, I'm seeing this, but I don't want to talk to the agency about it yet or I'm going to speak to the agency about it. But I just wanted you to be aware. I think we've established our own ways of working, which I think is just as important as the ways of working with our suppliers. Jenny: It's such a good insight into how it works behind the scenes from the outside looking in, Jess, and you just forget actually that that's going on, you know, people see you in your company, as the go to person to discuss issues. So it makes sense, total sense for agencies to kind of make sure that they involve the procurement team. So thank you for sharing this is really brilliant. What about you Iris? What about the trends in how procurement work with agencies, there's anything, anything that you're seeing obviously Jess was saying about a seat at the table and being seen as the go to person. Anything else that you'd like to add?  Iris: I think Jess mentioned that, I think we're also trying all the time to simplify and streamline the pitch process, you know, this is not always ideal. So I think we're looking at ways to making it simpler, making it quicker, you know, now that we're in a phase where we're launching a lot of products, we don't necessarily have the time to do really long pitches, you know, so we're looking at ways to connect with agencies quicker, you know, doing most of credential meetings, first, it goes to the point of like having a good understanding who's out there so you get it right the first time, you don't like invite a really large group, and then you narrow it down. So you be a bit more specific. I think the other point is definitely with the evolving needs around digital that this was before COVID, this is going to be even more, you know, as we're going through this pandemic, and as we come out on the other end, I think digital will be even more important going forward. The patient centricity, I think, is something that we're looking for. And also, I think agencies have understood that they need to, you know, internally, I have seen that they used to be these, you know, the big networks, but they weren't necessarily well connected. So they would kind of show us all the capabilities that they have. But in essence, they would still be individual companies and be very cumbersome to, like wanting to get the PR side or the medic side or the digital side involved. I think they've gotten better at connecting the dots internally. And this is something that I always questioned them. How's your internal governance? You know, can you actually bring someone in from the PR division? Or do you know, is it a different cost centre budget or, or even a different entity? So it's really important to understand who the decision makers on how the agency governance is structured? Jenny: That's a really good point. Are you finding the same thing, Jess? Is that the same question that you have in your mind when you're dealing with maybe a network rather than a independent? Jess: Absolutely, I think Iris, you know, spoke about it perfectly it's exactly how we feel. Jenny: Fantastic. Look, this has been amazing. And just one last question. Obviously, we're recording this in November, as you just mentioned, Iris we’re in the Covid situation in the UK, we've just gone into the second lockdown of the year. So how have agencies adapted to this remote style of working? Have you seen any particular successes? Or maybe challenges around this? Iris: Yeah, so just one point for me, I've seen them being quite proactive and coming with like, Hey, we tried this approach, you know, this is all new, we're kind of all learning, we're figuring out how to do things in this new way in this new norm. So I've really appreciated them coming forward, saying, Hey, we tried this, it might not be 100% perfect for you but we want to share, you know, can you give us a bit of time? Or do you want us to send the slides. Some suppliers have sent regular updates about about covid situation and what it means for the industry in particular, or healthcare. So I think the agencies have adapted quickly. And they have also tried to kind of get us on board to think about now and also to make us think about what it's going to be when this is sort of behind us, because we know we're not going to necessarily go back to the same ways of working then before.   Jess: I agree with that point completely, also think that there's a sense of sort of maintaining that relationship, right, you know, we would see our agencies live within pitches, we would meet them at our offices, might have a coffee or lunch and get updates. So it's really about sort of maintaining that relationship both for ourselves, as well as our internal customers, as we discussed. I've been putting some Zoom chats on, and they've been doing that with me as well, just to see how they're doing, how they're operating. How's it going for other companies? Are there any learnings they want to bring forward? Is there anything we need to know? I just think it's important. And it's important that we're all supporting each other. And this isn't easy. So making sure you know if there's anything that we can do better, if there's anything we can do for them, and vice versa. I think it's really, really important. And I think it's it's about adapting to our ways of working. You know, we're doing pitches over Zooms or WebEx, that makes it really difficult to figure out who a person is what makes them tick. What's their chemistry, like? Is their chemistry good with our marketers? So coming up with unique ways to do that, whether it be a workshop model or asking them a question, so you really understand how they think. I think it's really important and I think our agencies have been asking for that during this difficult time because it's very hard for them. to just show us creative, and then have us choose. Jenny: I love that so some great tips there for agencies listening, interactive sessions, so fantastic. Any parting words of wisdom or advice for an agency account manager that's listening to this, that is thinking, oh my god, from everything they've said, I need a relationship with procurement. Iris: Maybe two points for me two key takeaways. The one is around the, you know, the ways of working and establishing the relationship from the outset and having this open and honest conversation about it. And the second point, I just want agencies account managers to hear when they listen to this, they may have noticed that we have spoken very little about costs during this entire time. And so I think by now most agencies understand that procurement is not all about costs, and that we have moved on. And in my personal experience, if the relationship works, there's rarely an issue about costs. So I just want them to hear that we're no longer the cost killer, or the you know, the traditional procurement people that they may have come across a couple of years ago, I think, as a profession, we have really moved on. Jenny: Brilliant advice. And Jess? Jess: I think that's a great point, Iris. And really important because we have evolved a lot. I think it just goes back to a lot of the key words and themes we've used throughout this session. transparency, open communication, trust, two way street, really seeing it as a partnership. And to make sure you sort of find that fine line, if you don't have the relationship between pushy and persistent. I really think that there's a difference. And just making sure that you're forging ahead on your relationships, whether it be with your marketers, or procurement, or making sure that you have them with both entities.  Jenny: Fantastic point to finish. Thank you so much. And thank you so much both for joining me, this has been gold and I know that agencies listening are going to get a huge amount of value. From this. I'm looking forward to putting it out there and hearing the feedback. So thank you both so much for taking the time to talk to me.  Jess: Thank you so much, Jenny. It was really fun.  Iris: Thank you, Jenny for having us. I hope you enjoyed that chat with Jess and Iris. And you've come away with some ideas for how you can develop and grow your business using the relationship building approach with procurement. I'd love to hear what you thought of that episode. So if you're not already, please come and connect with me on LinkedIn. It's Jenny Plant or come over to my website accountmanagementskills.com and take the quiz to find out how good your agency is at growing existing business. I look forward to hearing from you soon.