Episode 10: The Long Game
56:50 Share

Want the same expert advice you get from the pros in the store while shopping online at DiscountTire.com? Meet Treadwell, your personal online tire guide that matches you with the perfect tire for your vehicle. Get your best match in one minute or less with Treadwell by Discount Tire. Let's get you taken care of.

As a busy mom, do you struggle to find time to shop for clothes? Try Daily Look, the number one highest rated premium clothing subscription service for women like you. Get personalized outfits curated by your very own stylist and delivered right to your door. Keep what you love, return the rest. Shipping is free both ways. For a limited time, get 50% off your first styling fee with code TRUECRIME at dailylook.com. That's dailylook.com, code TRUECRIME.

elevate your style with Daily Look today. This episode is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus, auto customers qualify for an average of seven discounts. Quote now at Progressive.com to see if you could save. Progressive.

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. National average 12-month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary, discounts not available in all states and situations. Today is the season finale of CounterClock, but I could not stop this series with just giving you guys 10 episodes.

I've decided to extend this series and put out two more episodes that I think you all will be gripped by. Next Thursday, I'll be releasing a bonus episode that is a one-on-one sit-down interview with Clifton Spencer in person. He and I met face-to-face recently after months of communicating remotely, and I think you all are going to be fascinated with our discussion.

His story is extremely interesting and powerful, and our conversation covers all aspects of what he's been through over the past 30 years. Then, a week after that, so two weeks from today, Ashley Flowers and I will be hosting a Q&A episode to discuss Season 1 and Season 2.

Between now and then, I'll be reviewing questions you guys submit to us via email, counterclock at audiochuck.com, and Ashley and I will talk about them together. I'll try my best to answer everything that I can. I have a lot of knowledge on both cases in my head, and there are little bits of info I can't always pack into each episode. Okay, now, let's get right into the season finale of Counter Clock Season 2.

Someone fatally stabbed Stacey Stanton inside her apartment on February 3rd. This was violent. It was brutal. On February 3rd, 1990, someone brutally murdered 28-year-old Stacey Stanton inside of her second-story apartment in North Carolina, then cleaned up and disappeared. Residents of Manteo have lived in fear.

For 30 years, Stanton's killer has had one face and one name. North Carolina investigators and Manteo police believe that someone is Clifton Spencer.

But his prejudice... They absolutely had tunnel vision that it was the black man who killed the white woman. Keeping an innocent man convicted... They even know now some of them old skogies or them good old boys, they know this man didn't do that. And covering up more than one crime. I feel bad for that guy. I just really seriously don't think he did that.

This is CounterClock, the investigation into the murder of Stacey Stanton. I'm your host, Delia D'Ambra. According to a court order, when additional DNA testing on evidence in Stacey's case started, the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation ran tests first. They used evidence samples pulled from the disarray of storage boxes in the Dare County Sheriff's Office. A lot of the evidence hadn't been stored properly, so the lab was up against tough odds from the start.

Still, at least they had some stuff to work with. Christine Mumma, the attorney who worked for the Center on Actual Innocence and was representing Clifton, definitely wanted the lab to run tests on trace evidence, which included the short hairs that were found on Stacey's body. She also wanted tests ran on small amounts of blood found on the paper towel left in Stacey's kitchen.

There was also the matter of that green-colored washcloth that had been found outside of the apartment in the street. Original luminol test reports from the SBI in 1990 read that the washcloth had detectable blood specs on it. So to Christine, it was important that that also get tested. The main point of all of this testing was to extract DNA profiles from the pieces of evidence.

Christine wanted to know if any of Patty Rowe and Mike Brandon's DNA was on any of the evidence. She also wanted to prove, once and for all, that Clifton's DNA wasn't on any items, thus excluding him as a contributor and helping his claim of innocence. This DNA testing was especially important because by this time, Patty had recanted her 1990 version of events.

She now stated that she could no longer be Mike's alibi for the early morning of February 3rd, the potential window of time Stacey was killed in. In 2004, Patty was unequivocally pointing the finger at Mike, identifying him as Stacey's killer, and she said she would swear to that if police put him into custody. Immediately after that, though, nothing really happened.

But a few months later, in January 2005, the search warrants were granted, which required Patty and Mike provide their DNA. Authorities in central North Carolina obtained a vial of Patty's blood, and police where Mike was living at the time, in Beaufort County, got cheek swabs from him. By the start of 2005, it was finally time to begin performing the forensic tests on the evidence, then wait for the results.

According to court paperwork, the SBI lab was limited in what specific DNA test it could run on the hairs found at Stacey's crime scene. For hair evidence, the SBI lab was only able to conduct what's called "STR testing." STR DNA analysis on hairs requires the hairs you want to test include a root.

If the hair you want to test doesn't have a root, your next best option is to perform what's called mitochondrial DNA sequencing. The problem was, at the time in 2005, the SBI lab wasn't capable of doing mitochondrial DNA sequencing.

So essentially, because the SBI lab could only do STR testing and many of the hairs in Stacey's evidence didn't have roots, they couldn't do a whole lot to help identify the DNA in the hairs. The SBI lab wasn't a complete bust, though. Staff there ran tests on other pieces of evidence and found the following.

There were numerous Caucasian head hairs and pubic hairs found in the tapings taken from Stacey's body, but only one of the hairs was suitable for the SBI lab's available STR DNA testing. That single hair was determined to be Stacey's, therefore no further DNA testing was done on it.

According to documents from September 2005, when SBI lab techs swabbed the paper towel from Stacey's kitchen for skin cells, they found a partial DNA profile. The profile had a mixture of alleles. Alleles are what identify versions of our genes. Stacey couldn't be excluded as a predominant source of the alleles, which meant most of the mixture was probably her DNA.

There were other alleles present on the paper towel that weren't hers. Those extra alleles were determined not to be Clifton's, but the lab couldn't exclude Mike or Patty as possible contributors. The next piece of evidence the SBI took a close look at was the washcloth from the street. Technicians found a male DNA profile on it, but the profile did not match Clifton or Mike.

They ran the profile through CODIS and other criminal databases to check it against known offenders, but no match came back. So that makes me think two things about the washcloth. One, maybe it was dropped by the killer and the DNA on it was theirs and they just never committed any other crimes. Or two, the washcloth is a total red herring and has nothing to do with the crime.

How or if the washcloth even fits into the crime is still a mystery to Christine Mumma, Clifton's post-conviction attorney. It was a washcloth found down the street that had blood on it, you know, so I don't know how often are you going to find a washcloth with blood on it down the street from a crime scene where there's someone who's been bloodily murdered. So we did test that washcloth as part of our testing. Did it come back to anybody? No, no.

In addition to the SBI lab performing DNA testing, the court also agreed that LabCorp, a private lab, should test the physical evidence. Unlike the SBI, LabCorp was equipped to conduct mitochondrial DNA sequencing. They could test hairs that didn't have roots.

According to documents from June through October 2005, LabCorp determined one of the short hairs found in Stacey's right hand and one short hair found in the slash wound in her breast excluded Mike and Clifton's DNA, but not Patty or Stacey's. The lab couldn't narrow it down any further because of the deteriorated state of the hair sample. Next, they ran a test on a hair found in Stacey's left hand.

It wasn't a match for her, Mike, Clifton, or Patty. Which is strange, but really there are only three explanations. One, maybe it was just a hair floating around in the apartment. I mean, after all, the ceiling fan was reported to be on for hours before evidence was even collected. Or two, that hair could have gotten on her hand from so many people being inside of the crime scene, basically contaminating it.

Or three: There is someone else we should be looking for who has stayed completely off of everyone's radar. According to the LabCorp report, none of the other hairs found on Stacey's body were in good enough condition to provide any conclusive results. The next piece of evidence LabCorp tested was the paper towel from the kitchen. Technicians found a mix of alleles on it, just like the SBI lab had.

The results indicated that some of the alleles could be Stacy's, and at least one could belong to Patty and possibly Mike, but none of the alleles on the paper towel belonged to Clifton. The report stated that more precise testing needed to be done, but that didn't happen, or at least it's not documented that I can find. Technicians with LabCorp also tested the green washcloth that was found on the street.

They determined, just like the SBI had, that a male DNA profile was on it. But the profile wasn't a match for Clifton or Mike, and it didn't have a match in CODIS or any criminal database. With a lot of DNA testing now complete and the results proving that Clifton's DNA was not on critical pieces of physical evidence, Christine focused even more on exonerating him.

She requested the SBI's full investigative volumes on the case. She wanted those to help build her argument that a lot of things had gone awry in the initial investigation, and there was substantial evidence to prove Clifton was innocent. She had to get the DA to sign off on the request for the SBI's files, though, and furthermore, get the SBI to cooperate. It took more than a year for that to happen.

On February 21, 2007, the SBI handed over to Christine copies of the full case file. It was hundreds of pages of information and transcripts. Some documents were handwritten, others were typed. It was going to take time to get through it all, but she knew whatever she found was going to help show Clifton was wrongfully convicted. Here's what's interesting, though.

Five months, almost to the day that Christine received the SBI's files while she's trying to get through them and prepare her case, the North Carolina Parole Board did a complete 180 and granted Clifton parole.

On July 20, 2007, Clifton walked out of Harnett Correctional Facility a free man. Sure, he would forever have the felony conviction on his record, and he'd be on supervised probation and monitored, but he was out. At that point, Christine says her passion to clear Clifton's name didn't fade, but a huge part of her and the Center on Actual Innocence's goal all along had been to get Clifton a new trial with the hopes of getting him out of prison.

When he was paroled, technically, they'd reached a big part of the end goal. Now, Clifton's case is harder because he's out, right? So going through all this, what you want in the end result is to get him into trial, to get him out. Unless you can identify the true perpetrator, you're not going to get him exonerated. The forensic testing that had been done pointed to Clifton's innocence, but it wasn't enough to exonerate him.

So, Christine turned to a state agency that had more reach and investigative and financial means to truly figure out who killed Stacey, thus exonerating Clifton. This agency is the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission. The North Carolina General Assembly established the commission in 2006, and staff there began reviewing cases in 2007.

But this agency, which held so much promise, would prove to be more of a hurdle to the case than a help.

Do you want to set your child up for success? IXL Learning is an online learning program for kids covering math, language arts, science, and social studies. IXL is designed to help them really understand and master topics in a fun way. Powered by advanced algorithms, IXL gives the right help to each kid no matter the age or personality. IXL is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the US.

There's one site for all the kids in your home, pre-K to 12th grade. Kids can even access IXL on the go through the app or on your phone or tablet. No more trying to figure out how to explain math equations or grammar rules yourself. IXL has built-in explanation videos.

And look, my son is only two and a half right now, but I can already tell by the time he is in school, he is going to appreciate having someone explain why something is the way it is. He doesn't like just to be told. So those explanation videos are going to be super helpful. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get IXL now. And CounterClock listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at ixl.com slash clock.

Visit iXL.com slash clock to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.

This message is sponsored by Greenlight. A new school year is starting soon, and if you're a parent, you want to make this school year an opportunity for your kids to learn important life skills and continue building independence. For that, there's Greenlight. Greenlight is a debit card and money app for families where kids learn how to save, invest, and spend wisely, and parents can keep an eye on kids' new money habits.

There's even Greenlight's Infinity Plan, which includes the same access to financial literacy education that makes Greenlight a valuable resource for millions of parents and kids. Plus, built-in safety to give you peace of mind. My son is only two and a half, but already he knows what a card is and what it does. He actually took it up to a vending machine the other day, swiped it, and, well, let's just say he's going to be a spender when he's older.

And so Greenlight is the perfect thing for him. There's even a chores feature that lets you reward your kids for honoring their responsibilities around the house. So what are you waiting for? Sign up for Greenlight today and get your first month free when you go to greenlight.com slash counterclock. That's greenlight.com slash counterclock to try Greenlight for free. greenlight.com slash counterclock. ♪♪

On its website, the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission defines itself as a neutral, fact-finding state agency tasked with investigating and evaluating post-conviction claims of innocence. It's a mouthful, but essentially, it looks very closely at someone's claim of innocence and decides whether it's legit. The agency has more direct access to case evidence and has the financial means to pay for additional DNA testing.

Here's Christine Mumma again. We were really committed to doing whatever we could in these cases, but DNA testing was very, very expensive. And the commission had a grant specifically for DNA testing. The North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission is made up of a superior court judge, a prosecutor, a defense attorney, a victim advocate, a member of the public, a sheriff, and a few other positions.

On the commission's website, there's a statistics page that has a running tally of how many cases it's ever reviewed. The data shows that in 14 years, the commission has reviewed more than 2,800 cases and only exonerated 12 people. Christine says the commission's criteria for finding actual proof that someone is innocent is stringent.

She was aware of this when she wrote a letter recommending Clifton's case to the agency in June 2010. She felt there were so many glaring facts that showed Clifton was innocent, and she was hopeful the commission would recognize that and be able to do and pay for the work to prove it. Unfortunately, the commission operates in total independence.

Christine says after she submitted Clifton's case and the commission decided to investigate it further, the work they did on it and whatever findings they made have never been shared with anyone.

And the Commission had the power to go in and search for evidence. They could actually conduct a physical search. And there's been so many cases where we've been told evidence has been destroyed or it's lost or, you know, you don't know whether somebody's actually gotten up out of their chair and done a search in response to our request. But the Commission staff can go in and actually do a search. And they have found evidence

In many cases where we've been told all the evidence is destroyed, but we don't even know what they found. So it's kind of ridiculous that the state of North Carolina is paying for this work and a lot of times the testing and the searches and the stuff, and then it's put into a locked box where no one knows.

has the benefit of it, whether it be Cliff or the state. The concept of transparency in justice has increased. And even as that has increased, the Innocence Inquiry Commission process has become less transparent. I can't remember when they closed it. I think it was like 2016 or 15. And they didn't exonerate him. They did not. They didn't even take it forward to the eight-member panel.

which is a problem because they had it for five years. They did a lot of testing. They probably obtained some files that I had never obtained, and now we can't get access to them. She's definitely right about the confidentiality of this agency's review process. I couldn't find any paper trail related to what the commission investigated regarding Clifton and Stacey. It's all sealed away in their records.

According to the Commission's website, in order for staff to review a claim, there has to be credible and verifiable evidence of innocence, or new evidence that was not available prior to a plea. North Carolina law prohibits the Commission from reviewing procedural errors in court.

They have to look solely at the facts of the case. But again, they do this in complete confidentiality. Once their review is done, they can turn over additional evidence of a crime or proof that the defendant is not the true perpetrator to law enforcement. But again, that's only if they choose to, ultimately. The commission has been very, I would say they're territorial-wise.

and resistant to change, which is the problem in our justice system overall. I emailed a page of questions to the commission's associate director, Beth Tanner, to learn more about what the commission did with Clifton's case. She replied to many of my inquiries saying she couldn't answer due to the commission's confidentiality policy. Not surprising.

She did confirm for me, though, what Christine had said, which is that the commission closed its review of Clifton's case in 2016. Beth verified that commission members did not present anything after five years of investigation to the three-judge panel that could have found Clifton's claim of innocence was true.

I asked Beth if a court-ordered preserve and protect order I'd uncovered that the commission slapped on the Dare County Sheriff's Office and DA in 2011 was still binding. Remember, this document ordered both the DA and the sheriff to preserve the physical evidence in the case. Beth's response to my question was disappointing.

She said when the commission closed its review of Clifton's case in 2016, the DA and Sheriff in Dare County no longer had the duty to preserve case evidence. So, who knows what's happened to it now or where it might be? Everything could have been destroyed.

I submitted Freedom of Information Act requests to both the sheriff's office and the district attorney, inquiring if they were still abiding by the order. But literally, in eight months, I have received no response. Here's Christine again.

When the commission starts working on a case, they automatically, in every case, send an order to preserve. Because if the law enforcement, law enforcement can dispose of evidence if they follow the statute and Cliff's out. So they have no obligation to keep it because he's out. And so the statutory law is you only have to preserve it for as long as he's in. And actually, it could be destroyed now because the commission has closed the case.

So that order is only for while they're investigating the case. And they closed the case in 2015 or something. So right now, who knows whether they kept it or not. One question Beth Tanner didn't answer in my email was why the commission never released an official reason for closing its review of Clifton's case without recommending it for a hearing. She said she couldn't provide me with that information. It was confidential.

The only document that gives me an inkling as to why the commission did what it did is the formal case closure letter it sent to Christine in 2016. It reads in part, The commission has completed its review of your claim and has closed your case. During the commission's review of your claim, the commission located physical evidence collected at or near the crime scene.

Significant testing was conducted on several items. However, results of the testing do not further your innocence claim. Additionally, the commission conducted numerous interviews, including but not limited to an interview of Tyrell Charity. After conducting the interview, the commission obtained an affidavit from Mr. Charity, a copy of which is enclosed.

Although the information provided in the affidavit may be viewed as favorable to you, the affidavit alone, in conjunction with the remainder of the commission's investigation, is not sufficient to move your case forward. At this time, there is no other credible and verifiable evidence of innocence on which the commission can proceed.

Did your ears perk up when you heard the name Terrell Charity? Yeah, mine did too. Because until I read that letter and the attached affidavit, I never heard Terrell Charity's name come up in this case. He was an entirely new character.

What he told the Innocence Inquiry Commission just four years ago is an all too familiar story. I've learned three languages in my life: English, Spanish, and French. And I can tell you the most difficult part for me at times was when I was doing the classroom work. And even though I was having conversations with people in those languages, it wasn't the same as being immersed in that language.

But with Rosetta Stone, I get the best of both worlds. Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program, and it's available on desktop or can be used on an app on your phone or tablet. The big thing for me when it comes to learning a language or sprucing up on one I already know is to have that immersive experience, like I said, and really naturally try and pick up the language, first with words, then phrases, and then sentences.

And something that's been really helpful with that is Rosetta Stone's True Accent feature. You get feedback on how well you're pronouncing words. It's like having a personal trainer for your accent. Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. For a very limited time, CounterClock listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash counterclock.

That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash counterclock today. All right, so for a long time, I was completely unaware of like what was good wine and what was bad wine. In fact, I used to drink a lot of wine.

I usually just didn't even buy it because I was worried I was gonna take too much of a risk. And when I did, I usually let myself down. But now that's completely changed thanks to First Leaf. It's a wine club that's not your average wine club. It's better.

With each shipment, you get a personalized selection of wines from all over the world, handpicked just for you. First Leaf has this great questionnaire on their website that helps me a lot because it asks me questions like what kinds of foods do I like? Sweet or salty or nutty or oaky?

And all of those things created results that had wines paired perfectly for me. You can tailor your membership to your needs, and you can choose between six or 12 bottles, decide how many reds or whites you want, and select a shipping window that works for your schedule. So get wines to sip and share all summer long with First Leaf. Go to tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock to sign up, and you'll get your first six hand-picked bottles for just $44.95.

That's T-R-Y-F-I-R-S-T-L-E-A-F dot com slash counterclock. Tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock. According to a sworn affidavit with the Innocence Inquiry Commission's case closure notice to Christine, Antonio Terrell Charity provided testimony to the commission in 2016.

This would have been at the very tail end of the commission's investigation and review of Clifton's case. Antonio swore in the signed statement that he'd known Clifton Spencer and Mike Brandon since childhood. He said Mike grew up to become a jealous man and was violent towards women. Sometime around 1993 or 1994, Antonio said he'd spent time in a two-person cell in the Dare County Jail.

Mike Brandon was his cellmate. Antonio admitted he couldn't remember everything Mike said to him, but while they were housed together, Mike admitted to him that he, quote, had taken care of Stacey, end quote. And he'd done that because he didn't want Stacey to be with Clifton, because Clifton was black. Antonio said that Mike told him he believed Stacey was secretly dating Clifton behind his back in 1990.

Antonio said Mike specifically stated that he had cut Stacey's neck and vagina with a knife. Unfortunately, there was no one else present when Mike allegedly shared this information with Antonio in their jail cell. Now, I know what you're thinking. This sounds a lot like a jailhouse snitch situation. But just bear with me for a minute.

Antonio came forward with this information when he was interviewed in 2016, six years after Mike Brandon died. From everything I could see, Antonio had nothing to personally gain when he provided this information about Mike to the Innocence Inquiry Commission.

According to Antonio's Department of Corrections record, he was in prison in 2016, but not until July 2016, one month after he provided the commission with his story about Mike. So because Antonio wasn't in prison when he gave the commission his testimony, it doesn't seem likely that he was trying to cut himself a better deal by sharing the information about Mike in exchange for something for himself.

Your next question, which I also had, might be, well, what if Antonio just told this story about Mike to get Clifton, his friend, out of prison early? The problem with that is, it's impossible. When Antonio came forward with this information in 2016, Clifton had been a free man for nine years. North Carolina had let him out of prison on parole in 2007.

So my question became, why did Antonio swear to this information about Mike in 2016? So long after the murder, and so long after Clifton was already out of prison, and so long after Mike's death. And why did the Innocence Inquiry Commission think that what Antonio said was insufficient to move Clifton's claim of innocence forward to the three-judge panel?

Because again, it's not that they ruled the conviction should be upheld. It was that the commission's staff never even brought Clifton's claim of innocence forward to a ruling at all.

Antonio is currently in prison at Pasquotank Correctional Institute in Elizabeth City, North Carolina. He's a convicted felon and has a criminal history. I wrote him a letter asking him to do a phone interview with me about what he told the Innocence Inquiry Commission, but he didn't write me back. He's scheduled to be released this December. So Antonio, if you're listening or you ever do listen to this show, please contact me.

In all of this, there's one hard truth that's frustrated me my entire investigation into this case. Clifton is labeled a murderer, and there's been a handful of people for 30 years who claim the opposite is true. And not only that, according to these witnesses, Mike Brandon was the person allegedly going around stating that he committed the murder, not Clifton.

Because the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission chooses to keep its case files confidential, we'll never really be able to know what other information they dug up or found that supports witnesses' claims that Clifton is innocent. Scrolling through the commission's website is super frustrating. Of all the cases that they claim to have reviewed, only 18 are available in public record on their website. And even then, some of those files are redacted.

Christine shares my frustration about this. Any work that they do on a case, at a minimum, should be available to the district attorney. And then the district attorney can decide whether it should be turned over as part of discovery. After months of working on this show and Christine and I pushing to access the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission's case file, we finally had a breakthrough.

On August 6, 2020, Christine Mumma filed a motion requesting a Superior Court judge in Dare County court order the Innocence Inquiry Commission disclose its files for Clifton Spencer.

After going back and forth all summer long, the Commission has finally agreed to release some information to Christine about what they did in the nearly six years their staff investigated Clifton's claim of innocence. This includes new fingerprint analysis, reports from LabCorp regarding testing done in 2012, additional lab reports dated for 2015 and 2016, and the Commission's forensic analysis chart for the case.

Christine also specifically requested the commission disclose all audio recordings and transcripts of interviews with Patti Rowe and her second husband, Ernest Moore. Ernest recently became a figure of interest to me because according to that probable cause statement from 2005, Ernest mentioned to authorities that one day he was working on a job with Mike and Mike, quote, all but admitted to killing Stacey, end quote.

I did some digging and after speaking with several people from Mike's past, I learned that Ernest and Mike did work together in the 1990s as painters. Ernest's background and criminal record confirms he lived in the Outer Banks up until 1997 or 1998.

I can prove that Ernest Moore and Mike Brandon knew each other and worked together in the years after Stacey's murder. So Ernest's story that while working with Mike one day, Mike all but confessed to killing Stacey could hold water. Ernest's testimony to authorities in 2004 about Mike being the killer lines up perfectly with what Patty was also saying at that exact time.

But because I can't get either one of them to speak with me, I'm left with just more questions. All I know is that Ernest now joins a growing number of people who were documented as stating Clifton is not the murderer, and Mike Brandon is. Once Christine gets all of the files from the Innocence Inquiry Commission, she may be able to clear a lot of this up. But until that happens, we just have to wait.

In the meantime, the whole experience of going through months of hurdles to force the Innocence Inquiry Commission to cough up pertinent records that could prove someone is innocent makes me infuriated. The same goes for Christine. She runs into this problem with the Innocence Inquiry Commission with many of her wrongful conviction cases, not just Clifton's.

It seems so ridiculous to me that the state allows the Innocence Inquiry Commission to operate with so much confidentiality to the point where they don't even have to explain themselves. Just a few weeks ago, I traveled to meet up with Clifton in person to talk about this. He took the day off of work and parked his semi-truck in Louisville, Kentucky, just to meet with me. We sat outside in the courtyard of a Crowne Plaza hotel for two hours talking.

He remembers well when staff from the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission took his DNA sample to use in their review process. When I did meet with him, it was almost like a touch and go type of thing. It was a swab, you know, of saliva. And they put it in a Ziploc bag and that was it. Standing in a parking lot with a swab in my mouth, put it in a bag, bap.

I don't remember neither one of the ladies' names that were there that day. A month or two later, they sent a letter saying that they wasn't going to pursue the case any longer. But that's all they said. You know, I don't know, you know, with the swab, if they found anything new or if they tested it or they just said, we just don't want to deal with the case. They never asked me one single question.

But Chris was with me, of course. But, you know, being that you're the ones who wanted to test this or something like that, I would think that you were asking me something. That kind of lack of follow-up frustrates Clifton. But at this point, what can he do? What can we do? Well, after a lot of thought and discussion with Christine Mumma, I and Ashley Flowers, the executive producer of this show, decided something should change.

We want your help in petitioning how the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission operates. On our website, counterclockpodcast.com, we've crafted two messages you can copy and send to the members of the commission, as well as the North Carolina General Assembly, which created the commission.

I've listed out the names and office contact information for every member of the Commission who you can email, snail mail, or call to demand change. In the same area on our website, I've also listed contact information for members of the North Carolina General Assembly who hold the power to reform the Innocence Inquiry Commission's overly confidential process.

If we want to solve Stacey's case and shed light on Clifton's wrongful conviction, this is what will help make that happen. If this doesn't get you fired up, what I stumbled upon while putting this call to action together will. I came across two documents from way back in 1993 that didn't really make sense to me. They're itemized lists of expenses for court-appointed attorney Edgar Barnes.

The fees are from Clifton's first MAR hearing, the one Edgar represented him at. I thought these fees were just standard documentation of what the court paid on Clifton's behalf, because he was indigent and couldn't afford a private attorney for that hearing.

It turns out that these fees are still hanging around three decades later, and the state of North Carolina, which has said Clifton served his time for his accused crime, is still after his wallet.

Walmart Plus members save on meeting up with friends. Save on having them over for dinner with free delivery with no hidden fees or markups. That's groceries plus napkins plus that vegetable chopper to make things a bit easier. Plus, members save on gas to go meet them in their neck of the woods. Plus, when you're ready for the ultimate sign of friendship...

In June and July, I made calls every week to the Dare County Clerk of Court's office. I wanted to find out exactly how much money in court fees Clifton's former court-appointed attorney had cost the state.

But every time I called, Dean Tolson, the current Dare County Clerk, told me that he was waiting to find out from the state's Office of Indigent Defense Services what the amount was.

To be honest, every time we spoke, it didn't seem like Dean really even knew how to find an answer to my question. Dean's hesitation and inability to give me an answer was the same kind of response Clifton got when he tried to sort out the issue right after he was paroled in 2007. At that time, Dean Tolson wasn't the clerk. A woman was. When I first got out, the first thing I did was I went up there to the...

the clerk of court's office in Manteo and tried to set up something like a pet. And I don't remember the lady's name that was a clerk of court at that particular time, but it was like $10,000 then. And she wanted it all. I said, I don't have $10,000. I'm just getting out there. I don't have. I said, can we make some payments or something like that? Then she suggested

Well, I suggest that you go and get an attorney and let him come back and file the paper. So that's another $1,000 or something I've got to pay an attorney to get them to do this. I said, well, I can't afford that right now. I wanted to do something with you guys, work something out. And so she told me, well, I said, that's the only other way. And I told her, I said, I guess I'm not going to be able to pay it then if you want it all at one time.

After my conversations with Clifton, looking at the documents from 1993, and a few brief conversations with Dean Tolson, I'd heard that the amount he owed was everything from $3,000 to $8,000 to $9,000 to $10,000 and possibly more. There was no consistency and no real record that I or Clifton could easily access that could be trusted as accurate.

In July, I wrote to the interim executive director of North Carolina's Office of Indigent Defense Services, also known as IDS. I finally got a straight answer from the interim executive director, Whitney Fairbanks. According to IDS's current records, in total, by the end of 1994, the state of North Carolina had paid $13,803.01 in attorney's fees for Clifton.

Because Judge Gary Trawick ruled against Clifton in the first MAR hearing in 93, Clifton remained in prison until 2007, and obviously he was never able to address the outstanding attorney's fees the state had fronted him. So every day since 1994, that principal amount, roughly $13,800, has accrued interest at a rate of 8%.

As of the 1st of August, 2020, the amount of money North Carolina is still seeking from Clifton is $41,867.94, and it's still growing. That is a big sum of money for anyone to pay, let alone a felon who struggles to hold a steady job because he's got a murder conviction on his record. There's a lot of stuff that I couldn't do because of...

People look at my background, they'll look at that I was convicted, and that's there. So it stopped me from doing a lot of stuff that I really wanted to do. Whitney Fairbanks from IDS told me that her agency is required by state statute to seek compensation for attorney's fees from a defendant who has had a judgment placed against them.

If fees are not paid at the time of a legal disposition—in Clifton's case, they couldn't be because he was in prison—then the fees are converted into a civil judgment which accrues interest. That's why the outstanding fees are so high. Whitney says this happens to a lot of men and women who go to prison and don't know that their fees are growing larger and larger every year.

Clifton's case is just one of many cases IDS manages and is trying to keep track of. Whitney says one way IDS is able to recoup fees without directly interacting with a defendant is through the Department of Revenue. That entity seizes a defendant's state income tax return. This is exactly what happened to Clifton.

In 2008, the North Carolina Department of Revenue began intercepting Clifton's North Carolina state income tax return. They then redirected the money to IDS to pay down the outstanding fees. But after seven or eight years of doing that, the money recovered barely made a dent in the grand total with IDS.

According to records, IDS, via the Department of Revenue, only collected about $1,500. It threw that towards paying down the nearly $41,000 Clifton owes. It's a drop in the bucket, essentially.

The principal of Clifton's initial fees has never gone down. But as the interest on that principal amount grows, every day it only puts him further in the hole. I tried and I tried and I tried, and it's not fair. It's really not fair. Whitney Fairbanks says that the scenario that is playing out for Clifton is an all-too-common occurrence with many, many criminal defendants.

She ended her email to me with that thought and a very interesting statement about Clifton. She wrote, "...it is IDS's position that there may be remedies available to Mr. Spencer, particularly the strong suggestions of wrongful conviction that can never be formally resolved and our recognition that a challenge to the validity of the judgments would likely involve complex litigation."

What Whitney is telling me is that her office realizes Clifton has a very strong case that he was wrongfully convicted, and she recognizes that there may never be a way for that to be proven without a never-ending legal fight. So, her office is willing to consider remedies to address his large debt.

When I asked her to clarify if IDS will consider forgiving or greatly reducing Clifton's outstanding debt, her answer was yes, in a way. Whitney told me when I called her to follow up that IDS can consider settling with the defendant on the fees they owe if IDS determines there's cause for it.

After my repeated inquiries and Christine Mumma writing a letter to IDS, it's my understanding that IDS is now considering taking a path to reduce Clifton's debt. But I don't know the specifics beyond that. And to be honest, it's not something I should be involved in ironing out.

I just wanted to make sure it was at least being addressed and these government entities couldn't just keep playing the blame game and not giving anyone, especially Clifton, a straightforward answer on how to resolve it. I'm glad I was able to get the right people's attention about this issue.

If you're out there in a similar situation or have someone you know going through what Clifton is in regards to outstanding fees, contact the North Carolina Office of Indigent Defense Services. Don't just keep existing with confusion. Demand answers. Demand that people do their jobs. After all of this work, one undeniable roadblock I've wrestled with during my entire investigation is that Mike Brandon is dead.

Also, his sister Tina is dead. She's the person who first found Stacey's body. In fact, all of the blood relatives in the Brandon family are dead. Mike, his parents, his siblings, everyone is gone. The only people living that I believe could know anything about Stacey's murder that Mike may have known are Patty and maybe his now adult son, Mike Jr., but neither of them will speak with me.

Ernest Moore, Patty's second husband after Mike, also won't respond to my calls or letters. Because there's been nothing but silence from these critical players in this story, Christine says getting any real answers about who killed Stacy is limited. According to her, the likelihood at this point that Clifton could ever be exonerated is incredibly low.

What blows my mind is that according to Christine, under today's legal standards, she says there is almost zero chance that the case and evidence the prosecution presented in 1990 would ever go to trial today.

I don't believe that could ever have been a capital trial. The death penalty was clearly being used as a threat, as it still is today. Former District Attorney Frank Parrish said as much in his letter to the state parole board on Clifton's behalf in the early 2000s. So if everyone agrees that the state's case against Clifton would never hold up in court now, that left me pondering the question, what can be done to clear Clifton's name?

Here's Clifton again. I do pray that I'll find a way to show that I didn't do this so I can at least get that off my record and I can show to the people that I'm not an animal as they proclaimed that I was. And I just pray that this thing will turn up and they will find out who actually was the perpetrator.

After talking it over with Christine, I learned there are only a few options available to exonerate Clifton. Option one: He could get a pardon, but historically pardons aren't given out unless someone is formally declared innocent. Even in the best-case scenario, which would be a North Carolina judge hearing the case and deciding to declare Clifton innocent, that wouldn't really mean anything unless Clifton is able to obtain a pardon from the North Carolina governor.

And historically, governors aren't just handing out pardons to people unless the true perpetrator of a crime has been identified or there's exonerating DNA evidence. Neither of those things have happened currently in Clifton's case. Option two, Christine could file a motion for a new trial based on new evidence coming to light. But the evidence or information would have to be something new that comes up or maybe even out of this podcast that wasn't known prior till now.

Only then could Clifton get a new hearing. The advantage of a podcast is word gets out. Somebody is out there that knows more than they've said, and maybe that will happen with this. According to Christine, it's very possible the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission's investigative file might include some type of new evidence that Clifton wouldn't have had access to prior to any of his MAR hearings.

That's why it's so important that you take action after this episode and petition with us that the commission's file be made available, at least to the Dare County District Attorney. Even though the commission's investigation was only looking for definitive evidence of Clifton's innocence, there may be something they uncovered that could establish evidence was withheld in the past hearings for the case.

Christine says if Clifton were ever to win a hearing to get a new trial, the state wouldn't have the evidence to retry him for the crime, so they'd have no choice but to dismiss the charges. He wouldn't be exonerated, but at least a murder conviction wouldn't be on his record anymore. And if that doesn't happen, the last and final option would be a long shot, but I think it could work.

A person who knows the truth, the real truth about Stacey's murder, coming forward to answer the unanswered questions. At this point, Clifton believes that's his only hope to clear his name. In this day and age, it's always been DNA that's exonerated people. And I don't know if there's anything that's in, as far as the evidence that's left, that hasn't been tested, that could...

you know, be helpful for me. That our judicial system is not really, it doesn't work.

It doesn't work at all. Being that you're from, originally from that area, is do the best you can and let your voice, you know, be heard through what you write. And that podcast, because, you know, there's still a lot of people that's there. There's, you know, it might be some people that know more information that might come out after all of this and say, look, this is what I need, you know,

You know, this is what I know about this. You never know. You never know where a person's heart will be after they, when somebody brings this back up and put it in the limelight. If you can put facts on in your podcast and or either things that are very questionable or

New information will not only provide more answers that would benefit Clifton, it will give answers to the Stanton family, a family that's been wanting answers for 30 years.

Throughout most of my investigation, I've been in touch with the only living member of Stacey's family who wanted to be involved in this podcast, her younger brother, Edward. A few weeks after I first messaged him, he expressed interest in my investigation. We talked on and off for a few months, mostly through his wife writing back to me speaking for him, but eventually he agreed to provide me with some of his own comments about this case and his sister's murder.

His wife wrote me this message that I had a voice actor read in first person. "Stacey was three years older than me. At the time of her murder, I was in my mid-20s and had actually just celebrated my 25th birthday in December 1989. Stacey and I were always especially close. Stacey was home in New Jersey for Christmas and while she was there, she said that she felt the lowest she'd ever been before in her entire life.

When our family was told that Stacey had been murdered, we were in disbelief. When the police made an arrest and the trial followed, we stayed in New Jersey. We were never sure who committed the murder, and we wanted more information. I always thought it was Mike Brandon or someone else who did this. I believe the black man who was arrested may be innocent, and it was all a big cover-up in that town.

Edward ended his message saying that he wanted to tell you, the listeners, that his big sister Stacey was very friendly, loved life, and was usually super happy. She knew everyone like a friend, and what he misses most about her is the great, fun times that they had together. Times that were cut short far too soon.

As I wrap up working on this case and my investigation is coming to a close, the final thought I'm left with is, you have to make up your own mind about who really committed this crime. Right now, there's no court determining that. There's no jury weighing any evidence.

You have to decide if you think justice has been served, or if you think injustice is still happening. You have to make up your mind about whether Clifton Spencer was wrongfully convicted and is still being punished in many ways for something he didn't do. When you look at the timeline of what happened to him in the wake of Stacey's murder, it's all very shady.

For years, the courts and judges in North Carolina kept denying clear arguments that pointed to Clifton's innocence, and the parole board would not let him out of prison even though he was eligible. Then, magically, as soon as his post-conviction attorney Christine Mumma starts digging and actually having evidence retested, the state decides to let Clifton out.

He has his freedom, but a lot of his life was taken and is still being stolen by the state of North Carolina. He can't get certain jobs, he has no retirement, and has a mountain of 30-year-old legal debt that North Carolina expects him to pay. Getting out of prison didn't give him his life back. The state is still holding him in a grip, just not behind metal bars anymore. True freedom will be a reversal of his conviction and a court exonerating him.

Righting the wrong also involves reforming how the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission operates and handles cases like Clifton's. In the end, Stacey is gone, and it's possible the physical evidence in her case is gone too. Exonerating Clifton may be impossible, but I think finding the true perpetrator of this crime is possible with modern technology. Someone just has to be dedicated to doing it.

Finally, there's strong evidence that people connected to Stacey Stanton may have also known Denise Johnson, too. That should remind you how important the real truth is.

It's the reason I'm calling on the Kill Devil Hills Police Department, the Dare County Sheriff's Office, and the Dare County District Attorney's Office to consider everything I've researched in these two cases and read the tips I've sent into the Dare County Crime Line. Call me. Email me. Look at my files. Look at my notes. Do whatever you need to do to solve these heinous murders. Do the work.

And the answers might just be waiting in the past. Thank you all for tuning in every week. Investigating what happened to Stacey Stanton and Clifton Spencer has been a journey. Continuing to follow leads in Denise Johnson's case is a mission I will always be on. I'm really glad you guys have stuck around to join me.

Next week, be sure to tune in for the bonus episode with Clifton and me. This one will be a raw discussion where we'll discuss several angles of the case. I also want to let you guys know, many of you have written in asking, how can we help Clifton? Well, he and his family have set up a GoFundMe account to help him with his finances, to give him a retirement fund, and also help him buy his own semi-truck. So, if you're interested in helping him,

So if you want to donate to that GoFundMe, you can find the link on our website, counterclockpodcast.com. It's also on the social media and blog posts for this episode. I also want to remind you that Ashley Flowers and I will be releasing a Q&A episode in two weeks to discuss both the Denise Johnson and Stacey Stanton cases in depth. If you have questions you want to ask me, this is your chance to write in via email, and I'll try my best to answer them.

Send your email to counterclock at audio chuck.com. That's counterclock at audio chuck.com. And I'll take the time to go through them. And if you thought I was going away for good, think again. I'm already hard at work on counter clock season three, turning back the hands of time on another twisted case. Counter clock is an audio chuck original show.

Ashley Flowers is the executive producer, and all reporting and hosting is done by me, Dilya D'Ambra.

The National Sales Event is on at your Toyota dealer, making now the perfect time to get a great deal on a dependable new car like a legendary Camry. Built for performance and available with all-wheel drive, you can count on your new Camry to get anywhere you need to go. Or check out an affordable and reliable Corolla with a trim for every lifestyle. From the hip sedan to the sporty hatchback, there's a Corolla built just for you. Check out more National Sales Event deals when you visit buyatoyota.com.

Toyota, let's go places. Walmart Plus members save on meeting up with friends. Save on having them over for dinner with free delivery with no hidden fees or markups. That's groceries plus napkins plus that vegetable chopper to make things a bit easier. Plus, members save on gas to go meet them in their neck of the woods. Plus, when you're ready for the ultimate sign of friendship...

Start a show together with your included Paramount Plus subscription. Walmart Plus members save on this plus so much more. Start a 30-day free trial at WalmartPlus.com. Paramount Plus is central plan only. Separate registration required. See Walmart Plus terms and conditions.