Episode 1: Cluttered
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Someone fatally stabbed Stacey Stanton inside her apartment on February 3rd. This was violent. It was brutal. On February 3rd, 1990, someone brutally murdered 28-year-old Stacey Stanton inside of her second-story apartment in North Carolina, then cleaned up and disappeared. Residents of Manteo have lived in fear.

For 30 years, Stanton's killer has had one face and one name. North Carolina investigators and Manteo police believe that someone is Clifton Spencer. But is prejudice. They absolutely had tunnel vision that it was the black man who killed the white woman. Keeping an innocent man convicted. They even know now some of them old skogies or them good old boys, they know this man didn't do that.

and covering up more than one crime. I feel bad for that guy. I just really seriously don't think he did that. This is CounterClock, the investigation into the murder of Stacey Stanton. I'm your host, Delia D'Ambra.

A small speck of land floating along the outer banks of North Carolina called Roanoke Island is where my investigation starts. To give you an idea of the area we're talking about, Roanoke Island is really small. It's only about eight miles long from end to end, and it's where I grew up. If you listen to season one, you'll know we're talking about a place about 25 minutes from Kill Devil Hills and other towns in the outer banks like Nags Head and Kitty Hawk.

Highway US-64 cuts through Roanoke Island and actually cuts it in half. It's the main road right through the center of the town of Manteo. The town's roughly 1,400 residents live on streets that for the most part branch off of 64. Most people live in the official township of Manteo or somewhere just outside the town limits.

Like my family's home, for example. It's just outside the town limits, but everything on this island is so close that if you live anywhere on the island, you just say you're from Manteo. Not from the beach, not from the mainland, just Manteo. It can get boring being surrounded by water, but the one saving grace is the downtown waterfront. This area is like the hub of everything. There's a few restaurants, bars, government buildings, shops, and of course, water access.

Every street from the main road leading into downtown has a historic name. They're all associated with the island's claim to fame, being the site of the first English colony in America. English settlers landed on the north end of Roanoke Island in the 1500s and became known as what's called the Lost Colony because one day they just all disappeared. And to this day, no one really knows what happened to them.

Downtown streets are related to figures in that story. For example, there's Queen Elizabeth Street. Well, we all know her. Then there's Sir Walter Raleigh Street, named after the English explorer who led the settlers. Next is Ananias Dare Street. That's named after the guy who fathered the first English child born in America. It's history like that that draws a lot of people to the island every year. And with the tourists comes the need for service industry workers.

the parasail instructors, boat captains, bed and breakfast operators, and of course, waiters and waitresses. In 1987, Elizabeth Stacy Stanton, who everyone just called Stacy, moved from Northfield, New Jersey to the town of Manio. She was working as a waitress and part-time hairdresser. She was 25 years old and knew the area well. She'd been vacationing on the Outer Banks since she was a kid, and her family had some distant relatives who lived in Manio.

Stacey knew she could make good money waitressing in the summertime, enough that she probably wouldn't even have to work for a few months in the winter when things slowed down. That's how the industry sort of goes in the Outer Banks. You make a ton of money when the weather is warm, then everything closes from January to late March, then it all starts up again in the spring. After leaving New Jersey, Stacey moved into a second-story, two-bedroom apartment at 506 Ananias Dare Street in downtown.

Some of her family friends rented the unit to her. And it was the perfect spot because it was walking distance to the Duchess of Dare restaurant, the diner she was working at. When I say you could walk from where Stacey lived to the Duchess, literally you could, and she often did. Her front door was seven minutes from the diner. The building where the diner used to be isn't standing anymore. A businessman gutted and remodeled it into a wedding and reception hall called 108 Budleigh.

That venue is now sort of a landmark in downtown. But back in 1990, the Walker family who built and was running the diner, they hired Stacy, and they couldn't have been happier to have her working for them. To get a better idea of what it was like at the diner and what it was like working with Stacy, I got in touch with a man named Carl Walker. Well, my mother, she owned the Duchess of Dare in downtown Mania. Of course, that's where I worked. I worked there.

eventually took it over. And we were there for over 50-some years. From the time his parents opened the diner in the 1930s, Carl says the Duchess of Dare was always a center point of downtown, and he was the general manager in 1990. Anyone and everyone hung out at the Duchess. A lot of locals. We had a lot of coffee drinkers mornings, and then we'd have a lot of locals come in for lunch. Of course, we had the tourists.

Carl says Stacey didn't stop working when January and February of 1990 rolled around, because local foot traffic and good tip money made it worth it. I think Stacey had been there maybe a year or so, maybe. I can't remember if it's been so long, but I think it was, you know, at least probably about a year. Stacey was full of joy, you know. If she'd come to work, she never had a bad day. She was always, always happy.

Just nice to be around. She was good to customers. She knew how to do her job. She made good money. On Saturday, February 3rd, Stacey was scheduled to work at 145 in the afternoon. The weekend brunch and lunch crowd made Saturday one of the best days to work. So by 2 o'clock, when Stacey still hadn't shown up for her shift, her co-workers began to notice.

The first person to speak up about Stacey's tardiness was a woman named Terri Williams, who was working as a part-time hostess. After a few weeks of searching, I found Terri's number and I gave her a call. She answered, and for the next hour, we spoke about the case. She didn't want our interview to be recorded for the show, and she specifically didn't want her voice recorded.

But she told me I could report everything we discussed because she, quote, "wanted Stacey's family to finally have some closure," end quote. I wasn't sure what she meant by that, but I agreed to just relay her story here to you. Back in 1990, while she was a part-time hostess at the diner, Terri was also a full-time Dare County Sheriff's deputy, a job she worked Monday through Friday.

The Saturday Stacey was late, Terry was, like I said, the first to notice. So maybe just call it a cop's instinct, maybe just had something with her having to do with being a deputy. Terry says she told another waitress named Tina to go check on Stacey and see where she was. After all, everyone knew Stacey only lived right around the block from the diner. Tina told Terry she would do it. She was wrapping up the end of her shift anyway, so it was no big deal.

Tina, Terry, and Carl are all thinking at this point, maybe Stacey just overslept or stayed out late with friends. Who knows? You know, we all enjoyed partying a little bit, having a good time, but I never thought she was, you know, partying too much. She was always showing up for work, was always happy. So she did her job, so she wasn't partying all that much. Terry says five minutes after Tina drove off to go to Stacey's, she returned to the diner hysterical.

Tina told Terry that she'd gone into Stacey's apartment, set her newspaper on a living room chair, and then looked over into the living room where she saw Stacey on the floor bleeding all over. Tina said the lights were off and it was really dim and she couldn't be sure what she was really looking at. Terry says in Tina's upset state, Tina couldn't provide much more detail. The only thing Tina said was, quote, "I think Stacey fell or is hurt. There's blood everywhere," end quote.

Because Tina knew that Terry was a sheriff's deputy, Tina told Terry to use the diner's phone to call police and get officers over to Stacy's. Terry says she did that, but instead of waiting at the diner, her and Tina went back over to Stacy's apartment. Now, here is just the first of many critical errors you're going to hear with this case. Terry says when she and Tina got to Stacy's apartment, no police had arrived yet. She says she made Tina stay outside.

and she walked up the outdoor staircase to the apartment's porch door, opened it, and then a few feet after that, opened the unit's actual front door. Terry says both of these doors were unlocked. As soon as Terry walks inside the apartment and turns the corner into the living room, she sees Stacy's partially naked body sprawled out in the middle of the living room. She was laying near a small mattress on the floor.

Terry said next she walked over to Stacy's body, stood over it looking for any signs that maybe she was breathing or still alive. But Terry says she made sure not to touch Stacy or anything in the living room. She immediately noticed a lot of blood around Stacy's head and on her shirt. And the blood was also soaking into the floor. It was obvious to Terry that Stacy was gone. Terry says she quickly backed up out of the crime scene and shut the front door.

It's right then, once back outside, that Terry says she sees the first Manny-O police officer arriving on scene. That officer gets caught up to speed from Terry, and then he goes inside. But despite Terry telling him that Stacy is obviously dead, this officer wants to check it out for himself. Once he's gotten a look, he lets a paramedic into the apartment behind him.

That EMT goes in and essentially does exactly what Terry just did: stands in the living room, looks at Stacy's body, and tells the officer that Stacy is deceased and there's nothing he can do for her. The next person on the scene, according to Terry, is a colonel from the Dare County Sheriff's Office, and he goes inside of Stacy's apartment to check the scene out too.

So just to recap here, according to Terry, that's five people who have been in and out of the crime scene in less than 10 minutes. They've all walked on the carpet, touched the doorknobs, climbed the stairs, everything. Jasper Williams, the colonel from the sheriff's office, is finally the one to make the call to close the crime scene down. He realizes they have a murder on their hands, and the town of Manteo police chief is going to need some help gaining control of this situation.

Now, at the time, the guy running the show at the town's small, very small police department was Chief Steve Day. Steve had only been in his role as chief for five months, and up until Stacy's murder, he'd never investigated a homicide in the town, ever. Jasper, with the sheriff's office, knew pretty quickly that this scene was going to require the full attention of his deputies. So he alerts his boss, Sheriff Burt Austin, and it's all hands on deck from there.

But here's the thing. Even the sheriff's office in 1990 wasn't equipped to investigate this kind of homicide, at least not like the State Bureau of Investigation could. The SBI is a much bigger law enforcement entity that has special agents trained to investigate major crimes. Here's former Dare County Sheriff Burt Austin to explain why the SBI needs to come in on this case.

I don't think anyone ever would have thought that would happen, but the world was changing, and this is one of the things that we started to have to deal with, not on a big amount, but we were getting into stuff like that. What was Dare County like in 1990? It was growing, but it was like a flower opening all of a sudden. The growth of the county and the area was just way ahead of us keeping ahead of it.

What were the kind of crimes your agency was investigating? Mostly drugs. Very rarely did you have a major felony crime. Like a murder? Murder or rape or anything like that. At that time, Matto's police department was a small police department. They didn't have the manpower. They did not have the equipment. The sheriff's office was a little bit larger, and the sheriff has jurisdiction anywhere in the county. So they asked us to assist them

And, of course, we don't have or didn't have near the type of equipment that we would need to get into that. Immediately, with the consent of the town, we asked the SBI in. And that's pretty standard all over the state, small towns especially. Burt knew that getting SBI agents to the scene as fast as possible was paramount. If you don't know what you're doing and you can mess it up and it never gets to court,

We still weren't very large at that time. When I went in office, I had 13 deputies, and that was in '80, 10 years later. I doubt if we had maybe 20 at the most. I don't remember the exact amount, but it makes a big difference. You've got to have the manpower and the people to do this. Bert put Jasper in charge of coordinating with the state agents who'd be coming from Greenville, North Carolina, several hours away.

Burt knew that Jasper would make sure the SBI's forensic equipment, lab techs, multiple detectives, the whole nine yards, would arrive as soon as possible. Jasper put his whole heart in his job. I've known him since he was born. And he was the most capable one at that time we had for the county. He was third in line to the sheriff.

So him being at the scene of a murder would be pretty standard? If it happened in the county, yes, definitely. He and the chief deputy both would probably have been very heavily involved. We were asked by the town to assist them, so he was the man that we sent. While they waited for the SBI to get there, keeping Stacy's apartment building clear of onlookers and securing it was the sheriff's office's top priority.

But by 2.30 in the afternoon, the influx of so many police cars and even a few town commissioners at the crime scene got the small community's attention. Tina and Terry knew what was happening, and word quickly spread, eventually making its way back to the diner. Here's Carl Walker again. Everybody was saying, we couldn't believe it.

We couldn't believe that it even happened. You know, growing up here in Manny, I grew up here, and you very seldom seen anybody getting killed around here. There was a few during my days, but it was an everyday thing or every week. So it was kind of shocking to hear how bad it was. That's what was so shocking about it, I thought, how somebody, you know, could be so cruel to a human being like that and do what they did to her.

Burt Austin and his deputies didn't want too much information about how Stacy had been killed getting out to the public yet. But just like in every small town, the rumor mill started turning. First thing you try to do is calm down and people get the situation with everybody thinking that I know the answer to this. You learn a lot listening to some of them pick up on stuff.

And everybody has their own answers to it in a small town, or in a lot of other areas too, but everybody speculates too much. And it's this narrowly focused speculation that is about to define the trajectory of the entire case.

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At 4:45 in the afternoon on February 3rd, two and a half hours after Stacey is found murdered, the first two SBI agents arrived on scene. These detectives still had to wait for their crime scene forensics tech to arrive with a special mobile crime lab. With him still hours away, they got to work questioning the first people at the scene, Terry and Tina. And here's where things get strange.

Teri gave the agents her full statement of what I've already recapped for you. She explained it was Tina who first discovered Stacey's body in the apartment and had come back to the diner to report something was wrong. There are a few discrepancies though with Tina and Teri's statements when you look at them side by side, particularly when it comes to the sequence of events about what they each did and when.

For example, Tina told Jasper Williams from the sheriff's office that when she and Terry went to the apartment after calling police at the diner, they both went inside and Terry turned on the light switch in the living room. Then they both retreated back outside. Now, Terry's statements say nothing about this.

Terry is adamant that it was only her who went into the apartment after they left the diner. Terry to this day says she did not turn on the light, and Tina was not with her when she stood over Stacy's dead body. Now, this inconsistency may not seem that important right now, but you need to remember it because it will become important later.

By the time investigators gather these basic statements from Tina and Terry, and they get their bearings on the crime scene, the SBI mobile lab arrives. It's 7.30 at night at this point, and Stacey had been dead for hours, still laying inside of her apartment. The man in charge of going through the crime scene, taking photos, and collecting evidence is Dennis Honeycutt. Some of you may remember his name from season one. He's the same guy who processed Denise Johnson's crime scene.

In the 90s, Dennis was the North Carolina SBI's go-to forensic tech. By nighttime on February 3rd, he starts his examination of Stacey's crime scene, starting outside in the driveway of the apartment building. We have several crime scene photos that he took. They're on our website, counterclockpodcast.com. I encourage you to go take a look at these photos because you'll get a better visual sense of the next part of this episode I'm going to take you through.

For starters, it's important to understand where Stacey's apartment building sits on Ananias Dare Street. It's set back off of the road, and a long driveway takes you to it. That driveway is situated between two houses that are closer to the street. The family that lived in one of those houses in 1990 actually still owns the apartment building today. It's all one big piece of property.

I went by to get a better look last time I was in town. I'm standing in front of 506 Ananias Stair Street, and when you look at it, Stacey Stanton's apartment would have been on the far right. And when you go up to it, it's just like it looks in the pictures from 1990. There's a staircase on the side that leads up to a porch. And then at the top of that staircase, there's a door to like a little porch area.

It looks like the porch looks exactly how it did in 1990. It's kind of off to the side of the entire building and looks like there's a new front door now for sure. So you go into this little porch area and then right through there is the front door to the apartment. Where I was standing was exactly where Dennis Honeycutt walked 30 years before as he began his crime scene sweep.

The first thing he notes in his report is that by the time he got there, someone had roped off the staircase leading to the second story apartment. They'd finally cut people off from going inside of this apartment. Someone alerts Dennis to a washcloth that had been found out in the street, and this washcloth appeared to have blood on it. Dennis bags that and keeps going. He's just getting started at this point.

As he makes his way up the stairs, he notices a large floodlight turn on that's triggered by his motion. This is obviously something that would have turned on if and when the killer walked in front of it. As Dennis heads up to the apartment, he takes pictures of the staircase, the doorframe, everything. He notices that the first door he comes to at the top of the steps lets you into a small enclosed porch. He wrote in his report that this exterior door was in really bad shape.

Several horizontal pieces of glass on the door that were designed to roll out to open cracks for lighter air were missing. But there was no broken glass around the door or on the porch. Just beyond these holes, where glass should have been, there was a section of the screen on the door that had been pulled back, and it appeared someone had tampered with the lock. Dennis, realizing this is obviously important, dusts the lock area for fingerprints and picks up some.

Next, he observes stuff laying around in the enclosed porch. There were some broken beer bottles, beer cans, a small dresser, and a cement block. Inside the top drawer of that dresser, he finds a crack pipe, which he took as evidence. He then continues to dust all of the surfaces and the doorframe of the actual front door to Stacy's apartment. After doing that, the next thing he comes across is a small hallway leading from the front door into the apartment.

We have a full diagram of the SBI sketch of the apartment's layout on our website, which I think will help you understand the layout of this scene. When Dennis is in the hallway, he notices that the overhead light is on and there are several patches on the wall where the sheetrock was being repaired. As he turns and goes into the living room, that's where he sees Stacy's body, laying in the middle of the room on a small mattress.

He makes a note that the light is on, and so is the ceiling fan. Which, can we just stop here for a second? I mean, I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure it's never good practice to have a large ceiling fan blowing on a crime scene for hours before you can even process it. You could disturb a lot of evidence.

Tina said Terry turned on the light in the living room before they backed out, which might explain why the fan and light are on. But Terry, again, said she didn't do that. It's unclear, though, if Terry did this or perhaps some other person, like a police officer, might have. Either way, Dennis found that it was on. Before he even goes over to Stacy's body, he takes pictures of the entire living room scene.

Then he snaps a quick shot of a local newspaper that's wrapped in a plastic delivery bag. It's sitting in a chair. The newspaper is dated for February 3rd, meaning it was the newspaper for that day and had been delivered early that morning and then brought inside. Remember, Tina told investigators that she was the one who brought it inside when she first found Stacey.

As Dennis makes his way toward Stacy's body, he observes a couple of other items scattered on the floor, including old newspapers, a magazine, and a match pack. Among these items, he also notices a lot of other stuff cluttered in the room: several cups, beer cans, cigarettes of different brands and ashtrays, a magazine spread open on the couch, food wrappers, lots of just stuff. He bags all of it as evidence.

Once he gets over to Stacey's body, Dennis clearly sees that Stacey has been stabbed, mostly in her neck and face. Her wounds are obvious. She's laying on her back, partially on a small mattress, and she doesn't have pants or a bra or any underwear on. And her shirt is pushed up over her breasts, up to her neck. She had a gaping slash wound to one of her breasts, and upon closer examination, Dennis notices more slash wounds to her genitals.

There was no blood coming out of the wounds to her breast and genitals, though, which Dennis noted meant they were likely made after she was killed. But we'll get back to that when we go through her full autopsy in a bit. In addition to her horrific wounds, Dennis notes that Stacey's body is positioned peculiarly, almost like she was purposely staged.

Her arms were over her head and her legs appeared to have been spread open and bent at the knees. This gruesome posture was only made more disturbing by the massive amount of blood pooling around her. Blood was soaked into the mattress, a sheet nearby, a pillowcase, and splatters of it were on a couch, TV, small table, and most of the walls. Laying around Stacey was the outfit she'd obviously been wearing when she was attacked.

a pair of gray sweatpants, underwear, pink socks, and white tennis shoes. All had blood on them. Dennis noted that one of the shoes was still tied and had blood drops and smears on it. The matching shoe had blood on the bottom of it, almost like Stacey had stepped in her own blood at some point. Her pants and underwear were towards her feet, which to Dennis appeared like the killer undressed her after she was dead or undressed her while she was dying.

Her clothing had blood stains and smears on them, but looking at it, Dennis could tell the blood hadn't soaked through from the inside out. It appeared the blood stains had dropped onto the pants and underwear and soaked them from the outside in. Something else kind of strange was that Stacey was still wearing gold stud earrings and two gold chain necklaces. There was a third gold chain necklace that was smeared with blood sitting on the floor by her head beneath the front of the couch.

It had been broken at the clasp, but before falling to the ground, had landed on the couch. Dennis took pictures of an imprint of blood that the necklace left on the couch cushion, which meant it was likely broken off of Stacey's neck during a struggle and flew off onto the couch with blood on it after she started bleeding. Then it fell on the floor. The fact that all of this gold jewelry was still with Stacey means whoever killed her, whatever motive they had, it probably wasn't robbery.

Another strange clue was the position of the TV in some plants near Stacy's feet. The TV was nudged back on one side, like someone had been standing in front of it and bumped into it, causing it to sit crooked. Then there were the several plants near it that were turned over. Again, all signs of a serious struggle.

Now, I know this is a lot of information I'm giving you to take in all at once. So again, I'd encourage you to check out our website because we have a diagram of the SBI sketch of this area. Very close to where Dennis found the turned over plants and Stacy's clothing, he noticed cuts in the mattress that Stacy was laying on.

It had several deep slash marks in it at the bottom near her legs, like someone had intentionally stabbed into it, either to keep her from kicking them or just to be destructive. After almost five hours into his examination, it was now 12:15 in the morning on February 4th, and it's then that men from a local funeral home were allowed to come in and remove Stacey's body from the crime scene.

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That's T-R-Y-F-I-R-S-T-L-E-A-F dot com slash counterclock. Tryfirstleaf.com slash counterclock. When the state medical examiner started his autopsy on Stacey, the first things he noticed were multiple stab wounds to her neck.

In total, Stacey's killer stabbed her roughly 18 times in the neck, throat, chest, and several places superficially on her body. The blade was thin and very sharp, most likely a razor blade or a box cutter type knife. Stacey had officially died from blood loss after the murderer severed her carotid artery, which is located in your neck. It's also sometimes called the jugular vein.

The medical examiner noted that a lot of the other cuts on Stacey weren't very deep. They were made fast and indicated the person committing the crime was acting furiously. Drops and smears of her own blood had been transferred onto her torso, legs, and the bottom of one of her feet. The medical examiner explained that he believed the smudges of Stacey's own blood were likely left by the killer, who was positioning her body after the attack.

Stacey was also mutilated. Her killer had cut her right breast and slashed several times at her genitalia. And the medical examiner confirmed what Dennis Honeycutt had suspected back at the crime scene, that based on the absence of blood flow from these wounds, they were inflicted after Stacey was already dead.

They also performed a rape kit, and that came back clear. There was no semen on Stacey, and there wasn't any other sign that she'd been sexually assaulted, which started to eliminate more motives, but it doesn't completely rule out a sexual motive. The doctor said in his report that the mutilation strongly indicated the attacker was displaying fetish-type behavior, but that was it. He didn't go into any further detail.

The only other major things noted in the report were that the doctor found and collected several small hairs on Stacey's body. These hairs were very short, like the size of chest hair or pubic hair. They were in Stacey's mouth, the wounds in her chest and neck, and on her fingertips and in her fingernails. Now, Stacey didn't have short hairs like these. She had shoulder-length hair. So whoever they belonged to was likely her killer.

The SBI had a lot of interest in these hairs, and they retrieved the samples right away and combined them with all of the evidence from the apartment they planned on testing for DNA. But we're talking 1990 here. DNA testing was still in its infancy. The SBI knew they weren't going to get the results back for a while, like probably a few months at least. So in the meantime, they had to come up with a suspect, anyone they thought could be involved.

To do that, the SBI focused heavily on the crime scene itself, and not just the evidence found in the living room, but what the rest of the apartment was telling them. Dennis had found no traces of blood in either of the two bedrooms in Stacey's apartment. The rooms were messy with clothing strewn about, but nothing showed there had been any kind of struggle in those areas. The only thing missing from Stacey's bedroom was her mattress, which clearly she'd moved into the living room at some point.

Investigators knew Dennis had found bloodstains and several fingerprints in the bathroom and kitchen. These blood smears were near the top of the bathroom sink, in the basin, and they had dripped onto items in the trash can. Scattered among clutter and booze in the kitchen, he'd found blood on a table and on a paper towel in the trash can.

It was clear whoever killed Stacey had attempted to clean up both in the kitchen and in the bathroom. They left smudges of blood wherever their hands or arms touched, which even included the door frames. All of the clutter, the cups, the cigarettes, and various types of beer brands and vodka laying around indicated to the SBI that multiple people might have been in Stacey's apartment in the last 24 hours.

Agents noticed that Stacy's pocketbook and wallet were sitting at the kitchen table. Again, not something that would still be around if her killer wanted to rob her. Something else on that table, which seemed eerie, was a bunch of construction tools. A hammer, screwdriver, pliers, and a ruler. The only thing missing from the collection was a knife.

Just like in the hallway, the kitchen wall had a patch of missing sheetrock. It looked like work was in the middle of being done but had just stopped. Nowhere in the house was there any kind of thin knife or box cutter, something you'd expect a sheetrock installer to use. Next to these tools were some unpaid bills and strangely, cards and mail addressed to a person named Mike Brandon. Now as far as police had been told up until this point, Stacey lived alone.

But this Mike guy receiving mail at her apartment only meant one thing. He had to know her and know her well. Police needed to talk with him. But right when they head out to track him down, he actually comes to them and points the finger at a completely unexpected suspect. Not to be ugly, but we are in the South and he was pretty quickly picked as the only person that had nothing to back themselves up.

They asked me questions about Stacey. When was the last time I saw her? And I said, I saw her last night. That's next time on CounterClock. Be sure to follow CounterClock on social media and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. CounterClock is an AudioChuck original show. Ashley Flowers is the executive producer. And all reporting and hosting is done by me, Delia D'Ambra.

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