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Stacey was a beautiful young woman whose life was stripped away from her far too soon by someone. While investigating Stacey's murder, I could not exclude the story of Clifton Spencer from my work. Clifton was incarcerated for most of his life after being convicted of a heinous crime. A brutal murder for which there is no hard evidence or testimony that supports he's the perpetrator.
In today's episode, we're sitting down for a raw, one-on-one conversation with Clifton. I'm your host, Delia D'Ambra. Friends say 28-year-old Stacey Stanton was a sweet, intelligent, and attractive young woman. Stacey loved everybody. Stacey, she never met a Henry. Although Spencer is fighting extradition, Dare County is optimistic he'll stand trial. I say he took a plea to something he didn't do anymore.
They absolutely had tunnel vision that it was the black man who killed the white woman. When I met Clifton Spencer for the first time in person, I felt like I was meeting a friend I hadn't seen in years. Travel restrictions due to COVID-19 and his busy truck driving schedule limited most of our conversations during the last year to text messages, phone calls, and FaceTime.
Throughout those conversations, I've learned that he often goes by the name Cliff instead of Clifton. If you know him, if you're a person he trusts, you can call him Cliff. As I investigated extensively the mountain of evidence that points to his wrongful conviction, I've been angered, confused, and disheartened. He and I have talked about it a lot, but he doesn't ever get as outraged as I do, at least not that he shows on the outside.
He has a surprisingly optimistic outlook on life, despite being imprisoned for 17 and a half, call it almost 18 years. He's a positive person. He likes to make people smile. I know he likes to make me smile. And he has a grounded faith that he says gets him through each day. Meeting together face to face in late August on the outdoor patio of a hotel in Louisville, Kentucky was no problem for him.
We talked it over and planned it out a few weeks ahead of time, and we met two days before his 62nd birthday. And come Monday, one thing I know, my mother will give me a phone call and sing happy birthday and want to pick at me, you know, like how it feels to be at my age, right? And I'm starting to think, she's picking at me? And she's older than me? What do I do? You know what I'm saying? It brings joy to me to actually get a laugh with her from time to time.
That kind of laughter and small moments of joy, appreciating family who's always stuck by him, are naturally just who Cliff is. He's easygoing and cheerful. But when he's not visiting his mom or sisters in North Carolina, for the most part, Cliff keeps to himself. He enjoys time alone, driving his truck, just being on the road. It's a thing that they usually say about men and women that stay in prison for a long period of time, they become institutionalized.
in some form or fashion. And with me, I just like having my time to myself a lot. You know, I'm not anti-social by no means. I'm not that. But, you know, I like being able to sit down at the end of some days and just reflect on my day, the good and the bad, and the in-between.
I have to admit, it took Cliff a while to warm up to me. Me, a complete stranger, and a journalist who cold-called him at night and asked him if he murdered a woman in Manteo in 1990. We couldn't be a more unlikely pair, except for the fact that we both grew up in the same area of eastern North Carolina. We both know Dare County. But even with that in common, we had seriously different upbringings.
Over the past few months, we've gotten to the point where we can swap stories, talk about our faith, political views, and yeah, even our parents picking at us on our birthdays. After several interviews, Cliff went from someone who didn't want to talk in detail much about his life story to being willing to publicly share his experience in the criminal justice system.
He says he hopes in some small way his story can inspire and educate other men and women who've been convicted of crimes they didn't commit. He also wants true justice for Stacey Stanton, a woman who was his friend. Stacey was a friend.
And, you know, when friends, when things happen to friends, you try to do what you can. And the approach they took with me was pretty much ask me a few questions. And I'm trying to think of all I could and then try to help them in the process of their investigation. They don't know who did it. I don't know who did it. But they're trying to put it on me.
Cliff has always wanted to have a conversation with the Stanton family to emphasize how much he feels for them. He says they deserve to know the truth as much as he does. I wanted to reach out, but I didn't know if I should. This was years ago. And because that was on my mind, reaching out. But, you know, like in a situation like that, you know, and I didn't know how to. I only think I knew they were in New Jersey.
But I didn't know how to reach any of them. But, you know, I did want to say to them that, you know, like my heart goes out to the family, you know, because Stacy was a friend of mine as well. And I pray that this whole case will be resolved. And I would have told them then that I said, even though I took that plea of no contest, I did not kill your sister. You know, I did not do that.
As we talked for two hours on the patio of the hotel, he reiterated how badly he wishes he could remember more from the night of the crime. He knows his unhindered use of drugs and alcohol at that time is why law enforcement picked him as a fall guy. He was easy to cast blame on.
It was a rough time in my life. You know, I was strung out on drugs and things like that. I really had lost who I was. I mean, I was just someone walking around. But I wasn't, you know, I wasn't being productive. And that was, and it's sad when I look back on some of the things, how I wasted those years of my life doing stuff like that, using drugs.
But I'm not disposable. I don't think it's a single person in this world that's disposable. Like, ah, use them and then throw them away. Aside from being strung out, he was also a black man in a white area that was demanding someone be prosecuted for a crime against a white woman. I don't like to throw a race card out there for anything, you know, but it's, you know, racism is alive and it's well. And it's something that, you know, we've,
all have to deal with to some extent. Even so, Cliff harbors no ill feelings towards most of the people of Manteo or the local police officers in Dare County.
But he strongly believes the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation agents in 1990 are the ones to blame for his illegal interrogations, illegal detention, and fabricated facts about him. You know, I had a lot of time, Delia, to think about all of this. You know, every day, you know, I wake up inside of a cell thinking about this and thinking about how they did me.
They took me down to this old airport road. And it's like an old hangar. I guess the drug agents usually use that or whatever. And he just took me out there. And supposedly they're supposed to have been taking me around, but that's where they took me. And that's where a lot of these so-called incriminating statements supposed to have happened. He had been questioning me for a while. They left me in a room.
with no handcuffs on by myself and right beside me was a rifle. Okay. And I'm looking at this, I said, I'm sitting up in this room, they got a gun over there in the corner and they got me sitting and they walk out and they knew the gun was there. I'm sure they did. But, uh,
You think they were trying to set you up? I feel that either that or put some kind of added pressure on me some kind of way. But I knew the gun was in. I told my look, I want to go back to Terrell County to jail. Over the years, I've heard a lot of people come forth with statements. And I don't know how many of them are after the fact that Mike had already passed away or whatever.
But before that, the only thing that ever was brought to my attention is what people say that, supposedly, I've done, which was outright lies. But then I've come to find out that the people that suppose they made a lot of these statements actually didn't make those statements. It was more or less a fabrication from the SBI.
The blips of clear memories that Cliff does have of the night Stacey was killed have never changed in 30 years. He can't recall specific times of where he was on the night of February 2nd and into the morning of February 3rd, but he maintains that the last time he saw Stacey, she was alive. I was coming from the Green Dolphin. I was coming across that area where the apartment where Stacey stays, and she was out there in the...
driveway or in the lot area. And she was drunk. She saw me and she asked me, she said, Cliff, that's you? I said, yeah. I went over there. She said, come here. And I went over there to see what she wanted. And she was telling me that bits and pieces that she, she said, would you go back down there to Green Dolphin, you know, and tell Mike. See, at that time, I didn't know it has nothing to do with Patty. I didn't know, I didn't know that at that particular time. But would you tell him to come, you know, please come by the house, you know.
I said, "Well, all right." You know, I said, "Here I go going back to the Green Dolphin." And so I decided to shoot a game of pool and all that stuff. That's when it happened with the guy about the quarter. But before that happened, even Mike got kind of funny. I said, "Well, Stacy told me to let you know to go by this." He said, you know, he's, "What did he say?"
The transcript says from his side of things that he said, screw Stacey. I can't remember exactly what he said, but the thing of it is, is it wasn't nice. Do you remember being inside of Stacey's apartment with another white guy there? I think, since you brought it up, I think, I don't remember if it was anybody. It was somebody, she was talking to somebody out there in the office.
In the lot. That's how she saw me. It might have been him because somebody was out in the lot with her. But do you remember being in the apartment with another person drinking at all? Not right off. I can't remember that. One of your statements was you went back, you knocked on the door, no one answered, so you left.
Cliff says no one for a long time ever got to hear his side of the story.
including his first defense attorney, Romalis Murphy. And being that Cliff was uneducated about the criminal justice system 30 years ago, he wishes Romalis had done more to help him and not pressured him into taking a plea deal he didn't understand. He said, I'm trying to save his life. I'm trying to save your life. I'm trying to save your life. What life are you saving? You're not saving my life by putting me in prison. You know, you just complicated not only my life,
my family's life, and Stacy's family life, because now they'd say, well, he's in prison for it, but they don't know. So who you helping? That's the way I look at it. Who benefited from this? Only the state. The state of North Carolina, I didn't know until I got in because Mr. Murphy told me otherwise. He said, 10 years is the max that you'll do.
He said, they might let you go before then, but you won't do no more than 10 years. You'll probably get out before then. But the thing of it is, in North Carolina, if you got a life sentence, they ain't never got to let you go. The only people Cliff says believed him, other than his own family, were Edgar Barnes, Letitia Echols, and Christine Mumma.
the three attorneys that came into his life at different points in time in the aftermath of his conviction in 1991. Those three were the only people he says who actually informed him of the evidence, or rather lack of evidence, that the Dare County District Attorney had against him. I've always wondered about some of this stuff that was found. From what my understanding was, it was a
washcloth or something found. I don't know if it had blood on it or whatever. - There was like spots on the washcloth that could have been blood and it was found out in the street actually. It wasn't even in the apartment. And it's listed on an evidence log as being found in the street. And you know, Chris had that tested in 2005. There wasn't enough on it to determine like for sure whose blood it was or if it was even relevant to the crime. But yeah, you're right. It creates a question of
What is that? What does that mean? And where was it found in the street? You know, and that's another. So I never I never had an opportunity to look at this discovery evidence in its whole. Only thing I received from my attorney, it was at that particular time was a few fabricated statements saying I did this and I said this and all this in this in this bar.
and my demeanor, you know, like I was trying to pick a fight and things like this. These are the only things that he shared with me. Now, what all he had, I don't know. I don't know how much of it he had. But it seems to me, if all of this stuff, it was a lot of things that were there that it should have been shared with me or he should have asked for it. And he would have known then that this is a bunch of nonsense. The only time I got
The evidence is when Christine, I got all the evidence was when Christine actually got involved. Before Christine, it was Edgar Barnes. He did a wonderful job for me. When you got hooked up with Eddie, did you really realize the maybe potential ineptness of Mr. Murphy? Like, was it that emphasized to you then after having worked with Eddie? Well...
He brought a lot of stuff to light because I didn't have any, I hadn't seen anything. You know, Edgar did a lot of stuff and he pushed and pushed and pushed on the NFL since he was a counselor. He asked me, did you know this? Did you know that? I said, I didn't know any of these things.
And I'm saying, well, they weren't sharing with me. And I really don't know if Ashley, if Mr. Murphy actually got that stuff from the DA. I don't know if he got it. And if he did, he just decided not to share it with me or whatever. The bottom line was, and I told Edgar, I said, Edgar, the bottom line with this whole thing is I didn't do this. And I just, I don't, and I don't know who did it. And I said, that's something I don't, because if I did, I would tell him.
Tell you who done this, but I don't. As a waitress poured us more ice water and coffee at our creaky patio table, we just kept talking about players in the criminal justice system who impacted his case and, in all reality, his life.
Players who for years strongly believed that he was guilty. People like H.P. Williams, the former district attorney in 1990. And people like Jasper Williams, the Dare County Sheriff's Colonel involved in the initial investigation in 1990. Both of these men declined formal interviews with me for this show. I don't see how he can't comment. He was a piece of it.
He was a big part of it because his name is on hundreds of documents in the initial investigation. Well, it seemed to me he can comment on the things that he put his name on. And Jasper Williams actually ran the report on you when they got your name from Mike Brandon on the afternoon when Stacey was seen, her body was found. Jasper Williams is the one that had the warrant search report requested for you before they even...
found you in person. He's the one that asked one of his deputies to run a warrant check so that if there was an open warrant on you, they could take you in and talk to you. So that right there tells me he was a big part of the initial investigation. And so to see his name on a lot of stuff and then to have him not want to participate and just sort of hand off the responsibility to deflect it to another agency was really disappointing for sure.
I like to say to him, you know, like Mr. Williams is, I would like to say to him that, you know, anything, if you have any doubts in your mind about some of the stuff that you're writing on that paper, I think you need, you know, everybody deserves to hear that, you know, because you're talking about my family and Stacy's family and the community of Derry County. But I would like to know if there's anything
that he felt that wasn't right, that he would, Ashley,
you know, clear his mind of it. H.P. Williams, the district attorney, I had mentioned to you in our talks that H.P. Williams doesn't seem to want to participate either, but he plays an integral role in this whole story because he's the one that sought your conviction and put the death penalty on the table at one point, then took the death penalty off and wanted you to
plead guilty to second-degree murder, which ultimately you did. But what's your message to H.P. Williams about what happened then? And, you know, if he doesn't feel the same way now, like, what do you want to know about that? To me, he's just, I don't really know what he is to me because it took me about five years or so to get off of, you know, I was kind of, it was a lot of hate in my heart behind all of this stuff and how they did it.
After I got over that ache, you know, and then I started realizing, I said, look, I'm not going to let this place be the end of me. I'm going to get out and I'm going to live a positive life. And eventually, if I can find, you know, young people that I can actually help, you know, share my story with them or something like that, I'll be doing that more willingly to do that. I don't have a problem with it. But H.P. Williams, you know, to me...
If you know something ain't right, you don't supposed to do it. You know, you supposed to be a person that's supposed to uphold the laws of the state of North Carolina. Upholding those laws don't mean if you don't, if you look at the evidence, if the evidence doesn't show that this person actually may have not committed this crime, you don't do what you do. If he feels differently now that you are in fact
not guilty of this crime, like, don't you want him to say that? Don't you think he has a responsibility to come forward? - He always had that responsibility, you know, but he won't do it. He won't do it. It's a lot of people who won't comment. Most people will comment on stuff if they believe that, you know, oh, he did, oh yeah, that'd be first one in line to say, yeah, he did this. Yeah, we know he did this, he did this, we got this and got that. When you got people that don't want to say anything about stuff like that, why?
you know, like good, bad or in between. You know, I don't expect you to be my friend, but if you want to be truthful about what it is, just be truthful. Cliff thinks H.P. Williams and law enforcement in 1990 trusted Mike Brandon's alibi too much. Cliff and Mike both had potential to be easy fall guys. They both used drugs, had criminal records, and knew Stacey. The only significant difference between the men was their skin color.
Mike was white and Cliff was black. Mike was from Manteo and Cliff was from Columbia. In hindsight, Cliff thinks, for whatever reason, maybe because of his race, maybe not, the cops gave Mike the benefit of the doubt when maybe they shouldn't have. Cliff knew a side of Mike that he thinks the police decided to ignore.
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Cliff says law enforcement and the NCSBI should have looked at Mike Brandon just as intensely as they looked at him. Cliff says that Mike had a side to his personality that was certainly dangerous. Our friendship was brought together because of drugs, and drugs was pretty much our friend. So, you know, as far as being an addict, addicts hang with addicts, okay?
And he was an addict, so he was my friend. As far as knowing him as a person, he was kind of aggressive with people. You know, I didn't pay him no mind. Usually he didn't bother me like that. You know, I never had a problem with him. But he would always be aggressive with people. And, you know, he was real aggressive at times with Stacy. You know, the way he talked to her, hollered at her, and stuff like that. You know, he...
He pretty much intimidated her, you know. Did you ever know him to be abusive towards her? I've never seen him strike her, no. But I've seen him holler at her and, you know, tell her get, you know, and she normally did whatever he said.
Cliff says until Letitia Echols and eventually Christine Mumma took over his case in the late 90s into the early 2000s, he never really knew how relevant Mike was to the whole story or that his girlfriend turned wife, Patty Rowe, was also someone to suspect.
Cliff was hopeful that Christine Muma's legal victory in 2005 to have more DNA testing in Stacey's case done would have proven once and for all if Mike or Patty were involved in the murder. But when the results came back from the labs, it wasn't a slam dunk. Cliff got his hopes up again when the science improved and the North Carolina Innocence Inquiry Commission took on his claim of innocence.
He was assured they were going to do even more DNA testing, including running new comparisons with a fresh sample of his DNA. He remembers clearly meeting staff with the commission so they could get a cheek swab from him, and this was back in 2016. When I did meet with him, it was almost like a touch and go type of thing. It was a
swab of saliva and they put it in a Ziploc bag and that was it. They never asked me one single question. But Chris was with me, of course. But, you know, being that you're the ones who wanted to test this or something like that, I would think that you would ask me something. We all were there standing in the parking lot together. I met them there and I met Christine there as well. And so when I got there, they were all there before I got there.
And I, me and Christina walked up towards them and she introduced this, blah, blah, blah. She told me the names of the ladies, but I forgot since then. And they just come with the swab in the bag. But, you know, pretty much, it wasn't a whole lot of, they never asked me anything about what they were trying to do with, or if they were going to look at this or do that. They didn't say anything.
A month or two later, they sent a letter saying that it wasn't going to pursue the case any longer. But that's all they said. You know, I don't know, you know, with the swab, if they found anything new or if they tested it or they just said we just don't want to deal with the case. Once you take, and this is supposed to be an innocent inquiry, and, you know, this project is supposed to be for the unjust case.
So if when you take something up like that, you need to let them know what you're doing or if you did anything at all. I truly believe that the way that that happened, you know, I didn't I didn't have a good feeling about it anyway. Standing in a parking lot with a swab in my mouth, put it in a bag. Bye.
I don't remember neither one of the ladies' names that were there that day. The lack of follow-up from the Innocence Inquiry Commission is frustrating. I talked a lot about it earlier this season. Because of this, Cliff fully supports petitioning legislators in North Carolina to reform how the Innocence Inquiry Commission operates. It starts at the top, from the governor, attorney general, the people and the...
State Senate, you know, the representatives for the state. To keep this from happening as often as it does, you know, you got to have at least two people looking at it from two different angles. So it doesn't become, okay, what's best for the state? He says he's excited to see what will happen when the commission gives its files to Christine Mumma. He hopes that will help her get him a new hearing.
And a new hearing would mean he could get a new trial. And according to Christine Mumma, a new trial would likely force the state to drop any of the past charges against Cliff, which would trigger North Carolina to clear the second-degree murder conviction from his record. Cliff says only at that point will he truly feel free. Until then, he's stuck in a weird state of limbo. There's a lot of stuff that I couldn't do because of...
People look at my background, they'll look at that I was convicted, and that's there. So it stopped me from doing a lot of stuff that I really wanted to do. And I do pray that I'll find a way to show that I didn't do this, so I can at least get that off my record, and I can show to the people that I'm not an animal as they think.
proclaimed that I was. And I just pray that this thing will turn up and they will find out who actually was the perpetrator. Right now, as it stands, Cliff has no retirement, and he works every day driving long distances to get decent-paying hauling jobs. His goal right now is to be able to buy his own rig and drive deliveries at his own pace on his own time.
Ideally, he wants to get back to driving fuel tanker trucks, a good-paying job he had while in the Army years ago. But because of his felony record, he's prohibited by federal law from hauling those kinds of loads, which sucks because he says they pay way better.
Right now, Clifton and some of his friends in the trucking industry have launched a GoFundMe campaign for Cliff to get him the money for a retirement and a rig. So if you want to contribute to that, go find the link on our website, counterclockpodcast.com. You can also find it in the blog post for this episode. ♪
The highest priority, though, right now in Cliff's life, as he makes his way into senior citizen status, is continuing to build a healthy relationship with his adult daughter, Dominique. He says missing out on the majority of her life while he was in prison can never be repaid by anyone. No court, no judge, no piece of legal paper can ever give those lost years back to him. But Cliff isn't bitter.
He's bound and determined to make every day better for those he loves and himself, to make the best of the life that he's been given. There's one thing that was a little prayer I used to say every morning when I would get up. When I was locked up, I would ask God to, you know, I would ask God every morning,
to give me the strength to be a better person than I was yesterday. You know, with all my faults and things like that, you know, I always ask him just, you know, make me wiser so I can be a better man today. Thank you all again for listening to the show this season. I hope that you'll consider donating to Clifton's GoFundMe account to help him purchase his own truck and save for retirement.
Information and the link to the GoFundMe is on our website, counterclockpodcast.com. And you can also find it on our social media posts for this episode. As a reminder, don't forget that next week, Ashley Flowers and I will be back with another bonus episode of Counter Clock.
We'll be discussing the ins and outs and all of your burning questions you emailed in with about the Denise Johnson investigation from season one and any lingering questions you still have about Stacey Stanton's case. And let me tell you, there will be an update about the Denise Johnson case in this upcoming episode. It's a result of a lead that I've been following for months.
Make sure you're subscribed to the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts so you don't miss this next bonus episode.
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