cover of episode Ta-Nehisi Coates on Israel: ‘I Felt Lied To.’

Ta-Nehisi Coates on Israel: ‘I Felt Lied To.’

2024/10/11
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Ezra Klein
一位深受欢迎的美国记者、政治分析师和《纽约时报》专栏作家,通过其《The Ezra Klein Show》podcast 探讨各种社会和政治问题。
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Ta-Nehisi Coates
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Ta-Nehisi Coates: 科茨讲述了他2023年5月对以色列和西岸的访问,以及这次经历如何挑战了他之前对该地区冲突的理解。他认为主流媒体和既有叙事未能充分反映巴勒斯坦人的生活现实,并对以色列的政策和行动提出了尖锐的批评。他详细描述了检查站、水资源短缺、贫困以及以色列对巴勒斯坦人的日常控制等问题,并指出以色列的政策目标是迫使巴勒斯坦人离开。他还探讨了以色列社会内部的权力动态,以及以色列对巴勒斯坦人的压迫如何通过看似非种族主义的官僚体系来实现。Coates 认为,即使是拥有以色列公民身份的巴勒斯坦人,也仍然是二等公民,这与以色列将自己定义为犹太民族国家有关。他认为,以色列的政策旨在阻止巴勒斯坦人发展政治权力,并最终迫使他们迁移到约旦。Coates 还反思了暴力在冲突中的作用,以及他如何试图理解以色列犹太人的安全关切,同时批评了将犹太民族国家的定义建立在人口比例上的做法。他强调,巴勒斯坦人遭受的暴力行为不能减轻以色列建立公正社会的责任。Coates 认为,哈马斯的行动不能作为以色列暴力行为的理由,并且他认为,如果对民主和人权的承诺无法承受暴力,那么这种承诺就是虚假的。他最后呼吁更多地倾听巴勒斯坦人的声音,并认为美国媒体对巴勒斯坦人的报道不足,限制了人们的政治想象力。 Ezra Klein: Klein 对 Coates 的报告表示赞同,但他指出,Coates 的著作忽略了巴勒斯坦对以色列的暴力行为,这使得对冲突的理解不完整。Klein 认为,要理解以色列的现状,需要考虑巴勒斯坦方面的政治行为和愿望,并且冲突的复杂性在于各方利益、需求和叙事的不可调和性。他还指出,以色列的现状与早期极端民族主义者的思想和暴力行为有关,并且哈马斯的行动增强了以色列右翼势力的力量。Klein 认为,专注于当前的现实,而不是假设的未来解决方案,对于解决冲突至关重要,并且他认为,美国人对以色列和巴勒斯坦的看法存在错觉。Klein 还指出,Coates 的著作由于缺乏对哈马斯的讨论,可能会被一些读者轻易驳斥。

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Chapters
Ta-Nehisi Coates discusses his evolving understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, from his upbringing in a Black activist tradition to his career in journalism. He describes a default Zionism within his field and how his visit to Israel and the West Bank challenged his preconceived notions.
  • Coates grew up believing the narrative that Israelis were oppressing Palestinians, similar to the Black experience.
  • He found journalism offered a path to knowledge but noticed a default Zionism within the field.
  • His reparations essay, using Israel as an analogy, went unquestioned initially, revealing underlying biases.

Shownotes Transcript

In his new book of essays, “The Message),” Ta-Nehisi Coates writes about a trip he took to Israel and the West Bank in May 2023. “I felt lied to,” he told me. “I felt lied to by my craft. I felt lied to by major media organizations.”

Coates’s essay is a searing portrait of Palestinian life under Israeli rule. It has also been criticized for leaving much out: Hamas is never mentioned. Nor is Oct. 7. Nor are any of the peace processes. So I asked him on the show to discuss what he saw when he was there and what he chose to leave outside the frame.

Mentioned:

The Case for Reparations)” by Ta-Nehisi Coates

Book Recommendations:

Justice for Some) by Noura Erakat

Our American Israel) by Amy Kaplan

The Unspoken Alliance) by Sasha Polakow-Suransky

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast). Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs).

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Efim Shapiro and Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

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