cover of episode In This House, We’re Angry When Government Fails

In This House, We’re Angry When Government Fails

2024/11/22
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Ezra Klein
一位深受欢迎的美国记者、政治分析师和《纽约时报》专栏作家,通过其《The Ezra Klein Show》podcast 探讨各种社会和政治问题。
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Jennifer Pahlka
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Steven Teles
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Ezra Klein: 本期节目讨论了美国政治中围绕体制的两极分化现象。民主党捍卫体制,而共和党对其不信任甚至试图将其摧毁。这种对立不仅在共和党执政时危及体制,也在民主党执政时造成问题,因为民主党对体制的维护过于僵化,忽视了体制的不足和民众的诉求,从而为右翼势力留下了空间。 Klein 认为,民主党未能承认美国民众普遍看到的政府机构效率低下问题,为右翼势力留下了巨大的空间。他以纽约地铁建设为例,说明政府效率低下。他呼吁民主党成为一个关注结果而非流程的政党。 Steven Teles: Teles 认为,美国政治正在围绕“专业权威的对象和主体”这一新的阶级维度展开两极分化,这与传统的资本家与劳动者之间的阶级划分有所不同。他指出,美国人对体制的看法发生了转变,政府机构现在被视为民主党扩展网络的一部分,而共和党则因此而对其持反对态度。他还指出,民主党已成为礼仪的政党,他们设定规则和行为准则,而共和党则成为对这些规则和准则的反叛者。 Teles 认为,自由主义的专业化导致了对体制的信任危机,并引发了民粹主义的兴起。他认为,许多机构曾经高效运作,但由于缺乏强有力的领导和持续的改革,其效率有所下降。他还指出,机构问题的产生并非源于刻意设计,而是由于不断累积的流程和规章制度而导致的。 Jennifer Pahlka: Pahlka 认为,支持体制的联盟忽视了那些希望改革体制而非仅仅捍卫现状的人。她指出,自由主义者过于关注流程而非结果,这导致了民众对政府的不满。她批评政府机构过于依赖公务员加班工作,而不是改进流程以提高效率。 Pahlka 还指出,自由主义者对“F计划”(Schedule F)的抵制过于僵化,忽视了现行公务员制度的不足。她认为,公务员制度的基础很好,但其运作方式已经偏离了初衷,需要进行彻底的改革。她还指出,机构的风险规避行为源于对抗性的法律环境。Pahlka 认为,政府改革应该关注赋能和能力建设,而不是简单的增加限制。她还强调了信任的重要性,认为政府改革需要建立信任,既要信任政府官员,也要信任民众。

Deep Dive

Key Insights

Why have Democrats become the party of defending institutions while Republicans have become the party of distrusting them?

Democrats defend institutions because they prioritize respect for expertise and science, while Republicans distrust them due to a perception of liberal bias and a desire to dismantle or weaponize them for political gain.

What are the dangers associated with Democrats' strong defense of institutions?

Democrats' defense can lead to a lack of clear-eyed criticism, making it difficult to address institutional failures that many Americans experience, thereby creating an opening for right-wing criticism and reform proposals.

How did the COVID-19 pandemic supercharge polarization over institutions?

The pandemic exposed deep flaws in institutional responses, such as school closures and economic lockdowns, which were perceived as coercive and often ineffective, leading to a loss of trust and increased polarization.

Why are government agencies often focused on process rather than outcomes?

Agencies are driven by a need to defend their decisions against potential legal and political attacks, leading to a culture of risk aversion and a focus on process to avoid criticism rather than achieving desired outcomes.

What role does adversarial legalism play in the current state of government institutions?

Adversarial legalism, characterized by frequent lawsuits against the government, creates a culture of fear and risk aversion, driving agencies to rely on rigid processes to defend their decisions and avoid legal scrutiny.

How has the Democratic Party's approach to managing dissent within its coalition affected its relationship with the public?

The Democratic Party's tendency to marginalize and ostracize dissenting voices, rather than engaging in constructive conflict, has contributed to a perception of insularity and a lack of responsiveness to public concerns.

What is 'I-95-ness' and why is it important for the Democratic Party?

'I-95-ness' refers to the ability to prioritize and swiftly address critical issues, as demonstrated by Josh Shapiro's response to the I-95 collapse. It is important for Democrats to show this kind of leadership to build trust and demonstrate effectiveness.

What are some key books recommended by the guests that explore the failures and challenges of government institutions?

Recommended books include 'Why Nothing Works' by Mark Dunkelman, which examines how the left has hindered its own goals, and 'The Unaccountability Machine' by Dan Davies, which explores why institutional failures often result in no clear accountability.

Chapters
Democrats' anger over RFK Jr.'s nomination reveals their prioritization of institutional respect and expertise, contrasting with Republicans' distrust and desire to dismantle these institutions.
  • Democrats prioritize respect for institutions and expertise.
  • Republicans distrust institutions and seek to dismantle or weaponize them.
  • The core conflict in politics is now over institutions.

Shownotes Transcript

The core conflict in our politics right now is over institutions. Democrats defend them, while Republicans distrust them, and seek, in some cases, to eliminate them.

This is really bad. It’s bad for institutions when Republicans are elected, because of the damage they might inflict. And it’s bad for institutions when Democrats are elected, because when you’re so committed to protecting something, it’s hard to be clear-eyed or honest about all the ways it’s failing. And when Democrats won’t admit to the problems that so many Americans can see and feel, that creates a huge opening for the right. So, what are Democrats missing?

Steven Teles is a political scientist and director of the Center for Economy and Society at Johns Hopkins, and a senior fellow at the Niskanen Center. Jennifer Pahlka is the founder of Code for America and the author of one of my favorite books on why government doesn’t deliver, “Recoding America: Why Government is Failing in the Digital Age and How We Can Do Better).” She’s also a senior fellow at Niskanen.

In this conversation, we discuss how and why the country has become polarized over institutions; the ways this was supercharged during the pandemic; the reasons government agencies are so focused on process, often at the expense of outcomes; how a second Trump administration will probably distract from some much needed institutional reforms; and more.

This episode contains strong language.

Recommendations:

Voice and Inequality: The Transformation of American Civic Democracy)” by Theda Skocpol

Infrastructure Costs)” by Leah Brooks and Zachary D. Liscow

Why Nothing Works) by Marc Dunkelman

The Unaccountability Machine) by Dan Davies

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast). Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs).

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith, and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

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