Wadey’s Wittle Phiwosophy Hour (Part 2)
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This episode, Waymarking Wade summons the Jonas Brothers, hates an army cards, and asks his pals if they have free willies. Machine-like Mark is edging his slumber and equitiously lectures on Black Hole. Bedouin Bob debuffs his ride, rejects determinism, and actively advocates for individual agency. From the will of God to Westworld.

It's time for Wadey's Little Philosophy Hour, Part 2. Now sit back and prepare to be distracted and enjoy the show.

Yes, finally!

That's a point. I am choosing to lose all my hair. I believe that having hair is against God. Huh? Huh? You get a bald point. All right. Never thought I'd get a bald point. Not until I went bald anyway. If all your hair doesn't fall out in the next five seconds, I don't think that point should count. Whoa, whoa.

Editors! No one ever will tell us apart now. How you guys doing? Been on that edge of sleep crying, you know how it be. No, I never worked on it. Alright. Well, I watched it. I don't want to spoil it. Like, I do want to spoil it, but I'm not going to. But I watched it, and I enjoyed it and want more of it. Well, you gotta follow the plan. And there was that one scene that I can't talk about and won't. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. And then what happened? Which I could say...

There's no reason why I actually can't. I'm just trying to be respectful of people who haven't seen it yet. But hopefully if you watch this podcast, you've already seen it. Yeah, who hasn't seen it yet? Unless they're outside the US and then they're shit out of luck. Everyone who watches this podcast supports all three of us and all of our endeavors individually and together. So I know they've all watched it already. Well, they better. I don't even have any endeavors. So there's a lot of extra bandwidth there to support you guys. You post YouTube video.

That's not an endeavor. It's kind of an endeavor. That's a pretty low-key endeavor. I endeavor to continue doing that. The bar doesn't have to be long to be a bar. That's true. Edge of Sleep, good. People like and popular. I saw it as high as number four on the charts. Maybe it got higher. Yeah, it got to number four, and then all through the weekend, it floated at five. So that's pretty good sustenance, in my opinion. Yeah, there's a lot of things to watch, and that one stayed pretty high for...

probably still is up there but yeah i think it's eight today but this is like by the time people hear this it'll probably be at number one if it gets to number one mark's already naked i mean i'm holding that in the back pocket just in case i need it because i do have i do have the the photos of what was supposed to be the third only fans drop i'm holding on to that just in case i need to bust out one last incentive to get it out there so uh well we can make distractible number one again oh

Oh man, dude, I have busy. I can only focus on, you know, task switching. It's an ADHD thing. I can't. Yeah, I can't. How dare you ask me? I think how good it would be for edge of sleep. If distractible was the number one podcast though, that'd be great. It would be.

incredible. There's probably a lot of crossover between platforms. Everyone knows jumping platform to platform is what viewers do best. Nobody has ever been against following us from one platform to the next. No, never. They love that. That's maybe their favorite thing we do. And who

Anything new? Anything exciting going on in your lives other than obviously Edge of Sleep being out? That's pretty big. Well, so I talked about it on this a fair amount multiple times. And you know all that work I did on the Subaru? And I was updating people and it's all undone now.

Turns out it's way easier to undo all that shit than it was to do it in the first place. Oh, cool. I spent multiple long days laying on my back under the car and doing... Yesterday, I undid 95% of everything, and the car is almost completely back to stock, and I'm going to sell it.

I thought you were going to say the doors are off, the hood's on the roof, the bumper's on the street. Pants are long gone. It is a Subaru, so it's not long until it does that to itself. But for everyone, I've mentioned in passing I'm selling the car. Yes, I'm selling the car. Sorry, everybody. I'm the only one in the entire...

house and extended family that both Mandy and I have that can drive stick shift. It just didn't make sense for me to have a car that no one else could drive, like in case there's an emergency or if two people want to go to two separate places or, you know, so I still have a fun car, but it's more of a family car now.

So if you want Bob's car, come to Bob's auction and you can bid it up and pay 10 times the amount he paid for it. I mean, yeah, I guess. What a deal. Mark was in there once. So, you know, all three of us were in there. I got cool footage of it. You can use that on the selling page. There he is.

And we almost bought a theater from that car. We almost did. Do you think it's on sale? God, I hope so. Maybe the auction fell through. Maybe it's back on the market. Maybe our time isn't past. I wonder if the owner of whoever bought Envision afterwards figured out that I was only there to scout out to see if they were going to go out of business. They're our number one fan. We broke their hearts.

Subaru, you want it. It might be for sale someday and you probably won't get it. It is will be and probably not. Other news. You guys want to know something random? I was in Virginia a while back, like back in, I think July with bird and some friends. I was playing a game, Tyler, actually Hanabi, which I think I've talked about. It's like a firework building game. You like get fireworks. You try to like build them up. Super addicted. Love it. They have a tile version, which is the version I played originally. And it's,

It does not exist. I cannot find it. I want it so bad and I cannot find it. There are websites that are like, you want the Tile version? It's right here. Click buy it. You can buy it. I click it and they're like, give us your email. Let's get your payment info. Hey, dude, silliest thing. It's actually out of stock. It's happened like four times. I'm so sorry. But everyone's got the cards. The cards in Tile.

blow they suck hanabi cards are like the worst thing i've ever played in my life hate it the tiles god tier like i would sacrifice my firstborn for the tiles

cards no what else would you sacrifice your firstborn for i don't have one because i already sacrificed them okay but if you didn't yeah bob subaru would you sacrifice for that oh yeah a car i don't have one of those uh some meat yeah somehow you still don't have a car crazy how that happens free lunch but for cards no not for the card hanabi cards bottom regret they're terrible

great game why are the what the card shouldn't exist go back to the top please i need the tiles they don't exist anyway that's my rant that's one of the greatest games i've ever played and that's um the difference between just a physical tile because of the ways you need to like keep track of what's on the tiles because you can't see your own tiles so you have to play based on clues other people give you you need to be able to maneuver them a little bit and whenever you're just holding cards in your hand it's like how do i keep track of all these pieces of information whenever i can't really maneuver much i can flip a card sideways i guess

But like, I don't know. Anyway, I digress. Hanabi, if you're watching this, you're an MVP. Play like one. You signed that big contract. You got the tiles out there. Let's see it. Been a few years since you've been at your peak. I believe in you. I'm trying to think of snarky stuff to say about this, but honestly, I appreciate your enthusiasm and I hope that someday you

you get the tiles that you deserve. It's at the point where I'm trying to figure out if I can just buy like dominoes or something like that. And then it's like, okay, I need to get like a sticker printing set and just print my own stickers, put them over some dominoes and just make my own set. And it's like, God, this is so much more complicated than if I could just find the thing that they have sold twice that apparently a lot of people online are looking for and can't seem to...

Why doesn't it exist anymore? Everyone wants it! At least five people have gone to every website and commented the same thing. Actually, you know, it is probably just production is a bit difficult. Anytime you're making a physical product, it's always going to be a bit harder than anything else. So, I mean, you can't really fault it, right? No, I fault it. I want it. Gimme. Yeah, you can't really fault it. I'm a consumerism who lives under capitalism. I need it and I want it now. Mm-hmm.

all right good small talk i'm gonna give myself a point there

That was an easy point. I put some passion in there. You know, I'm gonna get a passion point. Oh, are we only giving passion points out? I didn't say that. Oh. Well, let me tell you, Passion of the Christ is blowing you guys out of the water. A lot of passion in that one. Passion of the Christ 2, you mean? Passion of the Christ 2 Fast 2 Furious. You mean 9 Fast 9 Furious? Yeah, Passion of the Christ Resurrection. It's coming. I remember he came back and he was like, Dudes, that sucked. And then we crucified him again.

It's kind of a guns blazing thing. I hope they have like a Passion 2 Ginger Dead Man crossover. I can't not think of the... I think it's a Family Guy joke where it's a trailer for Passion 2, but then it's the guy from...

Rush hour, not Jackie Chan, but the other guy, what the hell is this? Chris Tucker. And it's him and Jesus. And they're like behind cover and the bullets are flying. And Jesus holds up a gun and is like, do you know how to use one of these? And Chris Tucker holds up a blunt and goes, do you know how to use one of these?

If it's not that movie, I don't want to see it. Yeah, well, I think we can rest assured in the age of AI, if it's not that movie now, it will be that movie. I think South Park did a thing like that years and years ago where like Jesus jumps out and like takes bullets to protect Santa Claus or something. Oh man, I just have to do this. Oh, look at this. It's so weird that you just had to do that right then. Oh yeah, yeah. Hold on, hold on.

Huh? Are you smelling me? Flexing my nostril muscles. You know, no one ever really shows those off. Yeah, this is the greatest beginning of an episode ever. So, some of you have been asking, and by that I mean one very consistent person. So this is for you. Wade's Philosophy Corner is back. Ooh.

Who has been asking that? My alt account. It's been a while since I've made myself look really smart, and so I decided to put that off for another week and dive into a topic I didn't really spend a lot of time studying in philosophy, but one that I think is interesting.

and that you boys might have some input on. And maybe this will be a really short episode because you guys will just agree. Maybe you'll surprise me. Maybe you'll have your own takes. But the question we'll be debating today is, do we have free will? And I've got some info from smarter people than us. Oh, I thought you got some info from on high. I got Jesus in my left ear, Buddha in the right, and I'm going to be listening to all God's

uppercase and lowercase g's no i do have like you know some some spark notes basically of uh actual moral theories i was diving in before we started today to read up on this a bit so i've got some info there but before i dive into things i've looked up i'm just curious what your guys intuition is what you think why you think or we can think through it talk through it debate uh is there free will i think therefore you are well

You think, therefore you are. Oh, okay. You think, yeah, that's what I was going for. Thank you. I'll take my points. No, no, no, no. I think, well, give me the points, but I think it's one of those questions. It's very, I mean, this is obviously philosophy, right? And moral theories and whatnot. It's like, it's very hard to end the debate because there is like what we talked about last time. There is,

really no way to objectively prove it because the objective point of view is kind of beyond our ability to comprehend. You would need to have a bird's eye view of the branching path of your life if that exists. If you don't have free will, then it's not a branching path. But you would need to have like that overview effect of the full course of it. And it's a perspective that we as people can't ever really achieve because we can only like

kind of predict the future and then look into the past, right? I'm a believer of that we have free will, and I'll probably, as we continue to talk about it, I'll probably push that a bit further. But it's also just because I kind of ascribe to that belief just because it has...

helps me and i mean a lot of belief-based systems come from a perspective of you you rally under the banner that you feel personally helps you it helps me move forward in my life to believe that there is free will because that coincides with what i want and

to believe, right? And that's driven by the wants that I have in my life in general. So by wanting there to be free will and opposing the idea that there isn't, it helps align me with going forward and moving forward with my life. Whether or not that's a true statement is whatever. And I can and probably will eventually defend why I think it is. But at the end of the day, on a more objective standpoint, it's because it helps me.

Okay. Bob, what's your initial reaction to the question? It's douchey, but I'm going to stick with it. I love it.

This is often my reaction to questions like this. My initial thought is, well, what exactly do we mean by free will? If we're going to address the idea of whether or not we have free will, obviously we live in a universe where there are seem to be like universal physical laws. Physics is kind of telling us that there are probably laws that they're still trying to work them all out. We don't understand how it works.

But so if we do live in a world where physical laws are consistent, that basically means we live in a deterministic world, right? If you could accurately simulate down to the minutest of details that we can't even perceive right now, the world, theoretically, you could figure out what someone might decide because you could have a model of their brain. And there are physical rules about how electronic impulses travel and how neurons work and how things work.

in the brain interact like, is that free will? Or is the free will the fact that humans, even if our thoughts may be dictated or influenced by things that are not conscious choices, not conscious free will, is the free will the part of how we choose to act

and react to whatever our thoughts are, whatever our unconscious motivations are, whatever stimuli we get from outside of our bodies. And that's kind of where I fall. What we think may not be

be completely conscious. You might not be able to consciously control how you react to things based on your life experience. You might not be able to consciously choose what you think or what you want to do, but you do get to choose when you do or do not do things, when you do or do not act

on thoughts that you have. So I think it's an important distinction. Maybe this is reductive, but I feel like one of the things that the free will question, people who might think that or might want to say that we don't have free will like to use that as like, well, then we're not responsible, are we? If I don't have, you know, if I can prove we don't have free will, then no one's morally responsible for what they do.

are they because it's not their choice that they did that they were made to do that by whatever thing by god or the laws of physics or whatever because we all have a fate or destiny but i don't personally believe that i kind of with you mark it's what helps me get through the day it's the idea that at least part of the world i have agency over and i feel like even if someone might want to say that our thoughts are dictated or predetermined in some way what you actually do

in the world to other humans, other living things, what you actually do or do not do is definitely still dictated by your free will. Thus, you are morally responsible for your actions, whether or not

You know, maybe some people have thoughts that they can't get rid of that are bad. You know, universally, everyone would agree that's a bad thought. You should not act on that. But if you don't act on it, it's just a thought. It's not a real thing. And so there's a line there that I feel like it's hard to define clearly, but I can kind of see it in my own head.

And that's what helps me feel like I have agency, even in a deterministic physical world. You know, it's funny you mentioned the thought experiment. Like if you were able to map out every single thing and analyze every single particle in the universe, you'd be able to do it. I always think of that. And then I think of like the double slit experiment, which is where they fired an electron through two slits and they were able to do it one at a time. And, you know, it created a wave pattern and they were like, okay, but how? And then they

observed it, or they took a measurement of which one it was going through, and that changed the outcome to be just two slits. So it changed from being a wave formation to like a very deterministic, it depicts one or the other, because we were looking at which one it goes through, and it was like one or the other. And so I imagine a similar thing would happen if you tried to map out every single particle in the universe. The moment you do, they would change. And so I think it's almost a fallacy to believe that we...

It's a fallacy to believe we ever could map out every particle in the universe. You'd have to have measurements on every single particle in the universe, and that's actually impossible. There is no way to do that. The only way that that could ever occur is if all of the particles in the universe were to collapse down into a singular black hole, because they've talked about this before of like there's been videos and, you know, Kurtzgesagt made a video and there's deeper, more accurate.

accurate information out there about it, but accurate is only as far as our theories on how black holes work even go. But what that does is in a way, because of our current understanding of light and matter, the moment that it crosses the event horizon over there, it's kind of like that part of the

particle obviously gets collapsed into the black hole, whether it's a singularity or not. But once it crosses there, it can never come back as it was. It's an effectively destroying the information of what that is. That's why it breaks physics a little bit, because it's just there's like laws of conservation of energy and information, because information is just basically the arrangement of those particles.

And it kind of writes all that information on the surface of the event horizon. Theoretically, it doesn't literally, it's just like, you know, hypothetically or looking at it in an abstract way, it writes it. But that determines, okay, this particle is this forever and therefore it will never change and therefore it never moves and therefore it's effectively dead.

And so I think like with life and the universe in a greater capacity as it is right now and in a constant flux state, that's probably a very poorly explained and poorly accurate way of scientifically going like there probably is free will because, you know, it's really hard to determine anything. And the moment you observe anything, it kind of changes and things are so complex that we could never observe anything. So I'm like, yeah, probably free.

will up until it all ends because that's the only not free thing we have well i want to go back to ask you a couple questions because you seemed very because what i said was more interesting yeah got it thank you well you kind of you turned on a bit because it seemed like at first you were going very deterministic as far as like that's where you used and which is actually a moral theory determinism

But you kind of like at the end, you're like, well, I don't want to let people off the hook for the decisions they make, the actions they do. So if they're going to be held accountability, there has to be some kind of free will, I think is where you ended. So are you team free will or are you team determinism or something else? Kind of what Mark just said, I guess. I don't know if there's a definitive way to say if...

the universe is or is not deterministic to me it seems likely that it is but also to Mark's point of where when you're observing something changes the nature of the thing as part of physics is confusing because I'm stupid but even if there are determined like it is deterministic how physics works and perhaps

perhaps how people think is deterministic in a way that like we can't comprehend, but maybe it is. Maybe there's a way that minds work that is, is figurable is understandable. It's not to me that doesn't get around free will.

because it's not deterministic what exactly you do. Or even if you do something that is a sort of unconscious reaction, if you just blurt something out or if you take an action without considering it, that's not the ultimate action that you have in this universe. You can take subsequent actions. You can...

You can change your mind. I mean, unless you are killing someone, which you can't undo, unless you're doing something that's unundoable, there's a lot of action that you can take after even a, if you would say, oh, well, I was beyond my control. It was my destiny. It was my fate. I didn't choose to do that. You choose to do everything else that you do subsequent to that.

I think. I don't know if it is, if the world is deterministic, but even if it is, I don't think that's necessarily what is or isn't free will. I think there is another component of free will and it's more, it's more human and societal. And it has to do with, even if you do something and you feel like it was outside of your control, you still maintain the autonomy of how you continue to act once that thing has happened.

Once you've said or done something, you can continue to say and do other things. So like, I guess I was trying to get more at like, what is free will? Because I've seen arguments where it basically ends at some philosopher or physicist or someone is like, well, I'm pretty sure the universe is deterministic. So there can't be free will. That's it. Yeah. And like, I guess I don't buy that.

There is a lot of support for hard determinism, which is basically that there is no free will. And if you go that route, the conclusion is that if there is no free will, people can't be held accountable for their actions because they didn't choose them. They were destined to perform them or whatever have you. And then there's like metaphysical libertarianism, which has a few different aspects to it. But that's basically team free will, which is like.

hey, people can and do veto actions that causation would say they wouldn't do. Therefore, there's probably free will or there is free will. Causation doesn't make sense. However, I think what you're approaching is compatibilism, which is there is causation, there is determinism, but they

They aren't externally constrained. When they get to you, you internally get to control that aspect. So sure, it's determined, but you are the determining factor. That's what makes you you, which is still a form of free will. Yes, there is causation that comes into you. You process it and spit out action. And the things in your life that have shaped you and made you, you determine what you're going to spit out. So it is determined.

But the you that is you still determines it. And therefore, you are the agent responsible. You are the free will and you are accountable for your actions. It's probably both. There's probably a moral theory like that, right? Where it's like it's both. Compatibilism is that if you think, yeah, if you think of it from like a physics standpoint, a star will create.

a light particle, its path is determined because no matter what, it's going to bounce against other particles, yes, and that will change its trajectory. But the moment that it's born, that path is set. And let's say that path sends it in a... Once it gets out of the star, it takes a long time, gets out of the star...

and it's straight line, it's going to go. And whether it gets curved by a black hole, whether it gets impacted, it's going to hit something or maybe not, but it's going to go somewhere. Like that path is determined. So you could say from a physics standpoint, well, everything's determined.

determined but also it's i'm not 100 sure if that's true either because there can be determined things in a system and then there can still be choices that affect it because a light particle doesn't think but also you break it down further you're like his thoughts just electrons falling down in your brain and it's like is the magic of the brain just collapsing those possibilities down into different particles or different deterministic moments at will is like it it

chooses when to make things deterministic. And in a weird way, that's free will. So it's, it comes and goes, or you can just look at it like we're all going to die. We don't know when, and we don't know what choice we makes, makes that hypothetical light particle that can kill that will kill us. Let's just say it's just a, it's a light bullet that's coming straight for us. We don't know when that's going to hit us, but you know, we,

we live in a box. Even if it's the illusion of free will, it's a very convincing illusion. And at the end of the day, what's the difference between that and reality? It's, it's, uh, again, it comes down to just what you believe. And even if that's not a choice, then I believe it's a choice. And therefore I think, uh, therefore I am.

This episode is brought to you by Coca-Cola Creations. I love Coca-Cola and I have had Coke in my life for my entire life. You love Coke. I love Oreos. Oreos are delicious. Coke is delicious. What happens when the best drink and the best cookie in the world get together? The best become besties. Try the new Coca-Cola Oreo Zero Sugar Limited Edition. Besties for a limited time. Taste it while it lasts. Copyright 2024, The Coca-Cola Company. Copyright 2024, Mondelez International Group.

This episode is brought to you by Coca-Cola Creations. What happens when the best drink and the best cookie in the world get together? The best become besties. Let's taste the new Coca-Cola Oreos, your sugar limited edition. Mark, do you have yours? Are you excited? They sent us these special, and then we're going to try them. I've been in an undisclosed location, kind of in a... Sucks to be you. Cheers, Bob. Yeah. Yeah.

I actually haven't had like a tasty treat in a while. It's been... It's like if Oreos was a drink, honestly. It's kind of unexpected flavor, but it's almost like kind of like the icing of an Oreo. What do you think, Mark? Editors, put in the sound of me glugging. It's great, guys. So good. Try the new Coca-Cola Oreo Zero Sugar Limited Edition. Besties for a limited time. Taste it while it lasts. Ah.

Copyright 2024, The Coca-Cola Company. Copyright 2024, Mondelez International Group. I wonder, okay, I wonder if this will shape your guys' thoughts at all. The existence of God or just...

omniscience in general if you know the past present and future the fact that that already is determined in some way does that eliminate free will if someone can know the future that goes back to what we were talking about before that's the knowing where every particle is at any time because if you know that if you had the ability to know where every particle all the the the 10 to the 40 something power

particles that are in existence, if you were to know where they are, you would know everything. That is the definition of knowing everything. You have the information of every single particle and the assembly of it, its relation to other particles around it, because to know where something is, you have to base it on where everything else is around it, and you effectively know everything. The amount of data that that is, is so unquantifiable to the human mind, you can't comprehend its magnitude. But if you knew that, that would be omniscience, right? It would literally be it.

If you knew that, it would kind of go back to, well, would that just...

everything. Because like that same light particle, when you're moving at the speed of light, everything else is basically static. But to a light particle, if it could think, its journey from where it started to where it ended, it would be instantaneous. It never existed to its perspective, so it could never understand its existence. And I think the moment that it does, it kind of starts to probably slow down, you know, just because it's, wait a minute, hold on. But it's over so fast for the light particle, it never, it never,

It basically effectively never was to the particle, but to everything else around it, observing the relativity of that, you know, it's different. So omniscience, if it did exist, it would exist in a way that we could never understand. Do you think it would mean that free will is impossible? Or do you think that we can still have free will and they just know what will come? But if they already know what will come, do we really get to choose it?

I guess. Honestly, I don't think it would matter because if there was something that was like completely omniscient to the point where it could understand everything, like obviously like godliness and whatnot, it would exist like in a higher perspective than we could ever appreciate. What you throwing there, bud? There's a long cord and I pulled it and my speaker fell. I don't think if that knowledge doesn't stop everything immediately, I

Then I don't think it matters for us inside the box, because to us and our perspective and our experiences, all we have is the unfortunate circumstance of the very convincing illusion of free will. And therefore, all we do is think that we have free will. And therefore, there is no other. So both is and isn't. Bob, you agree with that?

I agree. No, I actually have thought about this a fair amount in just to myself, basically. But the notion of omnipotence existing is basically incompatible with the way that we understand the universe. I think like it, like Mark is saying, if there was a being, some entity that that

had that, not only would time lose all meaning to them in terms of their existence, but literally it's a thing humanity can't really comprehend. It's an amount of information nothing that we've ever invented or the human brain itself can't

can't contain or conceive of. So it's just like, even if it's the worst case of what Mark said, we still live in a world where as far as we can really tell, yeah, we basically do have free will because there's no amount of understanding we could gain that would get beyond that.

that at least unless like unless our brains evolve, unless our species evolves, unless something changes dramatically, the way we are right now, it's inconceivable. It's really more of a concept. The idea of an omnipotent God or being or whatever, another species of some sort. And in a way to be

whatever you want to call it, energy or substance or, you know, power, whatever it would take to know every particle is more than is in the universe itself, because it would take more than exists to know where everything is. Um,

Therefore, it would obviously exist outside of the universe. And I think that distinction is very important because if it does take more than what is within, then it has to be without. And therefore, they don't even exist in the system that they are saying is deterministic. Therefore...

the perspective is, is not only just different, it's, it's impossible to conflate with the experience within the system. Um, so to, to them, we are also kind of both knowable and they will never know our perspective. They probably could have, they would probably have moral quandaries of whether we have free will or not, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's interesting. Do you think then that the mind and body are separate entities because

because a lot of the free will questions lead into what's called the mind-body problem. And if everything is physical, likely it can be determined by physical causes. But if the mind is separate and you have free will, unless you can find a way to rationalize having free will and it all being one thing, do you think the mind and body are truly separate things then? Or are they one entity? And for those of you out there that know this subject well,

This is a very rough, again, approximation, so I apologize if I misconstrue something or don't get something exactly right or say the things you want me to say, but I'm trying to guide on a subject I'm not super familiar with. I've been saving this one because I actually had this in the chamber, and while Mark was talking, I did some Googling to make sure I remember enough facts to talk about it. I think neuroscience has done some interesting stuff to sort of speak to

kind of what you're asking. Basically, there were some studies where researchers were taking an active scan of participants brains and then they were offered choices

And the summary, my summary of their findings is basically before the participants had a conscious understanding of what decision they were making, they could detect in their brain there was already a choice that was made neurologically. And I don't know the technical details, but basically they could tell from the brain activity that the participant's brain had

had already like prepared to make the decision and had sort of done the decision process. And this is called readiness potential, I think, in what they published. This research was considered by a lot of people to sort of debunk the idea of free will, that this is a demonstration, scientifically measured demonstration of determinism.

Because your brain is doing things before you're even consciously aware that you're making a choice. And then you just feel like when you think about it consciously, you feel like you're making a choice, but it's already in there. Right. But there were subsequent experiments that challenged this sort of finding and found basically that there's a difference between an important decision and an

an inconsequential decision that the readiness potential only happens when you're being presented with some kind of choice that is not a huge deal. Like there, an example of that is there is a, you're given two options, one or two. You pick either one and inevitably,

in an immaterial decision, it would be, it's two nonprofits and they each get $500. They just want you to pick one that you like the most, but like it doesn't affect the outcome. You're just making a choice. The unconscious readiness potential was found in decisions like that. But

If they gave you a thousand, they said, here's, you're responsible for a thousand dollars and you're picking one or two and the thousand dollars goes to one, the one you pick and doesn't go to the other nonprofit. The unconscious decision-making that came before the conscious expression of it was not found

in the scans they were doing. There's a difference between maybe some things kind of are predetermined. Maybe you make a lot of choices. I mean, everything you do is a choice, right? Over the course of a day of your life. But maybe there are some choices where you really choose to exercise your free will more assertively, or you just choose to bring out the free will. It of course begs the question, what in your brain decides whether a choice is or is not meaningful? Because that is not objective.

things are or are not meaningful to different people for different reasons. But the researchers who did that research basically said, we're not trying to like just make the argument at a deeper level that there's still some deterministic thing that you don't have control over. Our argument would be the human brain is so inscrutable. It's so complex.

that our science might never have the ability to fully comprehend everything that happens, but that there's clearly a complexity beyond either

either you are or are not making a choice and so there's clearly some component of free will buried in all of these you know sort of esoteric scans and findings but i just i find that interesting because it is it sort of gets back to mark's point about if you really could know everything you couldn't be part of the system so there's no way humans are ever gonna you know create a one-to-one simulation of the entire universe that would tell us all of the outcomes of everything that's just

just resource wise, not possible. No, it's much more of a God conversation with omniscience than it is us. It just makes it makes me it doesn't give me an argument. It just gives me the personal feeling of like, there has to be free will. There just clearly is some component of free will. And I think part of that is that your mind and your body and the physiology and the physics of what happens in your brain and how you make choices is kind of inexorably linked.

And so, like, I think if you took a mind and put it in a jar, it basically isn't the same person. It could, you know, if you could do that and it was the same brain with the exact same thoughts and memories, it might be kind of the same person. But their experience of the universe and the way that their decision making functioned, their internal motivations, all of that would be affected by the fact that they are no longer the person that they were with the mind and the body that they had. Now they're a new person.

thing they're a new person they will have the exact same types of motivations and reactions to things in that case if someone loses one of their senses do you feel that they're a different person too versus them having that sense like

Most certainly. Yeah. So if you're taking like, I'm just curious for Bob's point of view, if like, if you take a brain, put it in a jar, it's not fundamentally the same person, but if you remove an aspect of that person, that's crucial to their ability to interact with the world as they had before. Does that also change their personality?

person B now, not person A? Yeah, 100%. The idea of a discreet self that I am me and I will always be me is, I think, comforting to people because you want to have every individual wants to have a concept of who they are and they want it to be something that's hopefully at least a little concrete because that's what a lot of your life is based around, who you are and what you think is important.

But I think the real answer really is everything that happens to you kind of makes you a new person. And some things change you a lot more than other things. Losing one of your senses that you were born with and had spent your whole life with that now you don't have definitely makes you a different person. But also important people in your life dying or leaving important experiences in your life will...

completely change who you are because they will completely change your internal motivations and perceptions of the world around you in, you know, a lot of ways. So like you're it's not like you're not you anymore and you just like change your voice, look different. Like clearly there are parts of you that are still the same. You're still yourself, but you're constantly a new person with every experience in the sense that I'm talking about.

Yeah, it's I think the probably the closest example of that we have of his twins, you know, they don't have the exact same brain. That's for sure, because they don't even have the exact same fingerprint. But it's pretty much a very similarly structured brain in a very similarly structured body. And they have completely different experiences, different people, fundamentally different people for many. But when it comes down to, you know,

our experiences, I know that when you call it the bicameral mind, it's not exactly pertaining to this, but I just love it how they say it in Westworld, the bicameral mind. I love them talking about this, but the two mind thing, if you want to distinct it as the mind and the body, those are the

two things. And the mind, what we know as we as is like the passenger, we are not in control in some of these theories, because we just get the leftover scraps of all the data that is taken into the body. But it happens so quickly. And so, you know, succinctly that we have a very persistent illusion of our experience. And this kind of

Well, it goes with the not having free will kind of thing. But I don't think it's specifically about that, that we are just a passenger. I believe that the mind-body, if there is a separation, we're...

the tool for analysis further than what the brain has the capability of doing. It's, it's a tool that the, the entity that we are has and has evolved to this point. It's a very, very useful tool because if the instincts and the structure,

doesn't have the answer. It's the same thing as what goes on in thyroid. The thyroid is an amazing thing. It's part of the immune system. And the way it works is whenever there's a virus in the body that it doesn't know how to deal with, the body can't

can and will adapt to it. Not all of them, because there are certain viruses that kind of exist outside of it. But in the thyroid is an infinity engine of antibodies, almost infinite. But it cranks through random permutations at an incredible speed to try to find the answer to this virus. And that's if it detects it, you know, and if, you know, if it's compatible with, you

Once it knows there's a threat, it will crank through these to get to it. And in doing so, there's a danger to that because sometimes the antibody will affect the human body. It'll be like it can kill this thing, but it'll kill things. So there's actually cells on the way out of these antibodies of human cells of all variety.

to test against. So it not only gets an answer, it then tests against everything in the body. And if it does, if it kills something in the body, it's like, well, we shouldn't use that. And it kind of scraps it out. It doesn't make these decisions, you know, intentionally, it does this automatically. And so what we might be is kind of just a big mental thyroid is like, we are

there sitting as like a pass and in the sidecar. But when we're handed the controls, it's because the driving force of all this and it's the majority. Let's be honest. I don't know what's going on in each cell. The brain doesn't. We the mind doesn't even know what's going on in the body. Half the time can't control it and shouldn't

control it, but at the same time is still serving a very important role. And the mind that we have, even if it's mostly an illusion, might be the only scrap of free will that exists. Like free will might be an evolutionarily developed tool to

Kind of help the entire being survive because it needs to have this imagination and planning for futures and kind of plotting out possibilities, even considering possibilities to enhance the entity's ability to survive. So it, it,

it kind of can be a both thing because you have the blueprint and the instincts therein, and then you take in information and what it can answer quickly because the human mind that you're thinking is not very fast compared to everything else. And it's like, we can't figure this out. You go like, we are the Jesus that takes the wheel because the mind's just like, I can't fucking figure it out. Do this. And you're like, Oh God. Okay. I get it now, you know? And then, um, yeah, that's, that's probably what I, I would probably think is a fun way to look at it.

Is it also possible, I guess this is to both of you, when we take the wheel, it's just a more complex determinism. So like, I take a sip of water, water enters my mouth, I swallow it. I take a sip of water, but there's like something chewy in there. All of a sudden, it's like I either chew it and swallow it, or I take a moment, spit it out. I take a bite of food, I need to chew it, swallow it.

take a bite of food, my body rejects it, it starts to go down, throw it up. Like there are different reactions we have to something like that depending on other factors, right? We put something in our mouth, swallow, digest,

goes out. Drink too much alcohol, eventually you start to feel sick, your body rejects it, later that night, you are getting it out of your system. So with thoughts and things like that too, could it be a thing where like, goes through this processing and it's a splitter conveyor belt. Something doesn't matter, let's just spit out a decision before we even think about it, done. Ugh.

Do we want to give $1,000 to this one or this one? Okay, well, there's some consideration here. Let's send this to the more complex processor. And we're consciously aware of the more complex processor, but ultimately still a complex processor. Like an 8-ball. You have an 8-ball, you shake it, it gives you one of like 10 answers. That's our auto thing. But then you have your AOL Instant Messenger bot where you're like, hey, what's your name? Do you have dreams? And it has some

a lot more options that can come up with that takes things that you say to give your answer. Could our brains just be that or is it actually free will? Probably the question boils down to how complex does determinism need to be to functionally be free will? Because at a certain point, the complexity reaches that inflection point where it crosses over to being like, it's impossible for the entire system to fully map out every possibility. So not knowing what's

that it's so complex could be. But I think one of the, one of the ways that the mind does have a kind of not just passenger capacity is the mind is the driver of change in the body. The rest of the brain is changed by the mind's answers. It's, it's changed. So it's deterministic process.

are functionally changed because of the conclusions that you reach. This is how learning functionally works. Your nerves make connections that are driven by the patterns that your conscious mind takes in. It's offloading to the subconscious mind, but you learn and muscle memory exists because it was driven by the

this engine, whether this engine is deterministic or not, it's like a just a more complex one. I think it's a fascinating and really interesting connection because it affects change both ways and it can break down. That's how like anxiety can cause extreme conflicts and lead to depression.

And like these, these imbalances can cause like the balance is very, very fragile between the two processes. I believe this is all just conjecture. I'm just like talking out my ass. But I think that the fact that it's not just a one way thing, it's not just taking in, but the mind can affect change on the rest of the system.

Even if it's a system going, oh, that's in conclusion, I will change myself. But I think I think it's more intertwined than that. And that intertwining of deterministic functions where I go like, how complex do these deterministic things need to be to become functionally free will? So almost like a parabolic curve. It's like approaching free will. And it's so close that they might as well just be the same thing. Yeah. OK, we're going deeper than I thought we would. I'm not gonna lie. It's interesting.

Bob, any more thoughts on that one? No, just no. Don't want to think about it anymore. Bob, your determined factory shut down. That doesn't look like much of anything to me. Is that a West? That's a Westworld reference, right? Yeah, I've not seen Westworld. I need to see it. You should. You would love the philosophical discussion of the first season. Then stop. Maybe watch a little of season two because you'll be curious, but then stop when you know it's time to stop. Also, doesn't it like not exist anymore? Didn't it get?

Shelved forever, removed from Max. Did it go majorly downhill or something? There are four seasons, and honestly, the last season is okay, but the first season is the reason the entire show exists and is far and away the best and most interesting season. It is.

really nice if it just existed as a one season limited series it would it would be up there with one of the most fascinating series possible it's also very much worth it to go and watch the movie that was made in the 60s it's it's also called Westworld and it's very different from the TV series but

but still a very fascinating watch. For anyone wondering, it is an HBO show, so there's a gratuitous amount of nudity and sex. Oh, and violence. And violence. But in a way, it's like those themes, I would never make a project with that much sex and nudity, but the themes do tie in with, those do tie in with the theme, but it's just so you know. Yeah.

You didn't have to keep selling, man. You had me at nudity. A lot of nudity. Like some episodes are primarily nudity. All right. Well, that's the episode, everyone. I don't know who won, but I got to go start watching this Westworld thing real quick. So.

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okay we got a pretty good discussion in i feel like this is a probably a decent wrapping point unless you all have any other final things you want to say did you have more subjects to talk about than just free will no no i wanted to focus mainly on free will today i had a lot of notes on it yeah i'm trying to think if i have like a button thing i want to put on here i guess the conclusion that it is free will even if we can see that maybe it's not that it's just so complex that it gets so close to free will we might as well call it free will is interesting a lot of

things I found when I was looking, it seems like a lot of people are more on team determinism. I think that want for free will is there. And then people can argue in and of itself that wanting something in and of itself is a sign of free will. I don't know. It's a complex thing to think about. And then mind body stuff. Mind body is where I started to get like a bit in over my head in philosophy. Studying stuff like that was kind of like, oh boy, this is getting so in depth because now we're talking about anatomy and

brain chemistry and chemistry in general and physics versus also just really complex philosophical theories and trying to make them all make sense together. So again, this is a bit beyond my understanding, but I thought maybe one of you would go. I thought Mark would probably be team free will. Bob, I wasn't really sure which way you would go with it. And you started off. I thought you were going pretty deterministic, but then you kind of like you found compatibilism, which is another theory in and of itself, which is cool. But I didn't know where you would go with

You would like Westworld. It is basically this question in a show. Literally on the poster of Westworld is at the top, free will is not free. Well, see, I liked morals and morals was where my real passion for philosophy was. Free will is an interesting question because it can touch on morality. Because if you don't believe in free will, you can't assign moral responsibility. It's like, well, if you didn't choose it, how can we hold you accountable for it? It's just who you are.

I didn't go too deep into it, but yeah, I'll have to check it out. I've, I've, I heard good things about Westworld, but I feel like I haven't heard anything in like years about it. Maybe that's why. Well, the last season came out a few years ago now and the first season came out in like 2018, 19. So most of season two and three are just,

In your opinion? Came out in 2016. I mean, honestly, season two is watchable. Season three and four really go off the rails. Season two is fun because of where it takes place in a large part. And so, like, it's fun. The problem is season one ends in, you know, I think it was meant to be a...

one season kind of thing. And they were like, this was so popular. Let's make more. You know, they tried and it's not bad, but it's hard to keep that going, especially if you're like, we need more seasons, especially more after if it was also like just a second season. That's another different story of like, don't worry about continuing it. But I think like

season one's ending is both open-ended and also conclusive and i think that's you know where the trouble began that's the philosophical discussion of it is like you know that's it's very interesting also if you're looking for other media on uh the question of free will mandy and i literally last night watched the movie 2014 movie ex matching machina ex machina which is about um development of ai kind of an interesting well-made movie with some really good acting about uh

these sorts of questions and consciousness and free will and stuff. I don't know how I didn't see that because it's a movie I would have loved to watch when it came out. But 10 years later, finally saw it. I haven't seen that one either. Alex Garland is the maker of that movie. Also made Annihilation and I think made Sunshine. So if you know what Sunshine is, I really like Sunshine. I got to rewatch it. It's kind of like a, I don't think it was too terribly successful, but the sun needed a reboot. So they sent a ship out

to the sun. Think of a journey of not journey to the center of the earth, but go down and let's put nukes in the center of the earth and restart the core. You know that movie? No, it's like that, but for the sun, but it's very, the style of, of sunshine. I fucking love it. It's very, very pretty. And, and I don't, I don't know.

space you know you you like space uh yeah i like space is cool except for the moon apparently that movie you're referencing is called the core of the core of course there's a reddit post about sunshine i just i just looked up and it's like talking about how like arguably one of the best sci-fi horror films of all time but and you know it goes into detail but the top comment is zero out of ten no one says it's daylight savings time

Damn it. I mean, that is just right there. All right. Yeah. Zero out of 10. I would agree. Honestly, I'm not seeing it, but man, that does ruin it. Cause that would be such a great one liner. Yeah. Sorry to spoil it for everybody. All right. Let me go over the points. Hopefully y'all enjoyed this discussion. I know it's a more serious episode, but I don't know. People have been wanting some philosophy. Yeah. It's for you. Get it. Cause I like it. Um,

Mark, I'm gonna go over your points first. Oh, fuck, man. This is determined. I didn't have free will on this episode, did I? Well, no one was determined, so someone had to. All right, Mark, you got points for sitting is superior, brutal honesty, edging in sleep. He took the point. Yes, free will. Science and space, baby. Omniscience wouldn't matter to us. Twins? No.

uh and the parabola close to free will why are you saying twins like that it's from uh austin powers i think two girls walk out their twins he just

I always say it like that. Bob, you got points for Subaru Undo. Bald. Looks like it says no oral. I'm pretty sure it says moral. Deterministic world. Moral responsibility is what it is. Compatibilism. Free will, as far as we know. Neuroscience that then divulged into readiness potential and only happens for minor decisions. I got a point for Hanabi Passion.

The firework game? No, I don't remember. I was trying to find you a tiles version on eBay, and I was searching international Ebays for it. I thought I found one in Russian, but it was just the card version with some misleading Google Translate, I think. I'm telling you, man, I don't know how nobody is reselling it. No one is selling it. It's crazy. All right, Mark, you had nine points. Good effort, good effort.

Bob. Promising. You finished with eight points. Plus. So despite giving Mark's points first, Mark won. Whoa! I finished with one point. Well, at least I didn't lose. See, I can also be surprising and unpredictable. Do I speech? Do I speech now? That's up to you if you have free will or not.

I got a lens cap. Ooh, man, the late deduction before we... Oh, is that what? Oh, I said the word! That's all right. Your winner's speech. You can lens if you want to. It was determined that I would win this episode from the moment I was born to every decision leading up to here, which was illusions. Decisions more like delusions, you know? So we...

all are part of a orchestrated dance by no will of our own yeah but I won and so I feel good about that so that's the only thing that matters I don't care if it's deterministic I feel great and that is awesome you know what else is great drugs they make you feel super good so if you if if why don't you just succumb to the the decisions that were made for you already let's do drugs well said I'm

I'm the winner. I can say whatever I want. That's true. That's the rules. That's allowed. It's immunity. It's immunity in this moment. I won. Bob, loser speech. I feel good because I willed freely myself into second place today. I chose it on purpose because I can do that. You're like Dash and the Incredibles at the end.

Just go for a second. Make it close. Yeah, no, that's the... I have so much free will that I'm out here coming in a close second just to keep it realistic. That's how free my will is. You can have this one, Mark, because I gave it to you. Good for you. Thanks. You determined my future. Yeah. Wait, what? I am the passenger to your deeper body. Together, we are the bicameral man.

Men? Man? Are we one man? Man.

Hopefully you'll have fun discussing this stuff. I know this is usually more up my alley than yours. Some people like philosophy episodes. Hopefully everyone does, but sorry it was less comedy, but good interesting discussion. Maybe you learned a thing or two. Maybe you thought deeply about something today. Maybe you didn't. In any case, you can find us at our respective channels. Me at Minion777 or LordMinion777. Bob at MySkirm. Mark at Markiplier. Check out Edge of Sleep. It's out now. You should have watched it already, but if you have, watch it again. If you haven't, fucking watch it.

We have merch, tractable store.com. They do it for the next episode where Mark will lead us on some kind of journey until then podcast.