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This is Emily. And Caroline. Right now, we are in Walport, Oregon. On the Oregon coast, and that is the Pacific Ocean you hear in the background. This podcast was recorded at... 12.11 p.m. Eastern Time on Thursday, July 25, 2024. Things may have changed by the time you hear this, but that's just how things go, especially lately. Enjoy the show!
Don't I know it. I have to admit, I'm really envious of these timestamps of people living their best lives on vacation right now. No. Hey there, it's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics. Today on the podcast, is Vice President Harris's view on Israel's war on Gaza any different than President Biden's?
Asma, you know, Vice President Harris has emphasized that she's pretty much on the same page as Biden on all this. But, you know, watching her through the last year or so, it's true that her style has been different when talking about this, right? That's right. I mean, what I have heard from a number of people that I've interviewed, both, I would say, sort of inside the National Security Orbit, outside as well, outside observers, is that Harris seems different.
to emphasize emotionally and sort of empathize with Palestinian civilians and the humanitarian crisis in particular. And this is something you have heard from her again and again. I think most notably was when she delivered remarks in March in Selma, Alabama. What we are seeing every day in Gaza is devastating. We have seen reports of families eating leaves or animal feed, women giving birth to malnourished babies with little food.
And she went on to describe this as being a humanitarian catastrophe. I mean, to be clear, the substance of what she has said about this conflict is pretty akin to what you hear from President Biden. But I think it's style, it's tone, it's delivery that has caught the attention of some voters. Yeah. And so clearly this is like an important humanitarian issue and matters on its merits. But I think one of the open questions is how
salient this is going to be for voters. Obviously, during the Democratic primary, there was the uncommitted vote. This was very important to Democratic primary voters. But what do we know about how Americans center issues like this since we're heading into a general election? Like what what are you sort of expecting here? I think you have to look at an issue like this through two completely different lanes.
The next president, this is going to be a significant foreign policy matter at the very top of the list that they will have to deal with from just a matter of geopolitics. So in that regard, it's very important. It's not to dismiss this issue in any way at all. But very broadly speaking, foreign policy is not a big driver that's determinative in U.S. domestic elections and certainly not presidential elections.
The exception to that being when U.S. troops are abroad, as we saw in the fallout after the Iraq war, which was a big contributing factor to Barack Obama's victory back in 2008 because the nation had so soured on the war and that conflict. I think when you look at this election, and we'll see because, again, as Domenico said earlier this week, like we've almost hit the reset button in how people are viewing this, but
Consistently, people have said that while they may care about the situation in Gaza, it is not a huge driver of their vote. So I am skeptical that this is an issue that will dramatically change or swing an election. But as you noted, I do think obviously Michigan, you have to put an asterisk here as one of the seven swing states that we're watching that could be determinative in the election, as we said a million times.
the margins matter. And if there is more warmth or more enthusiasm for Kamala Harris's candidacy over Joe Biden's, that could have an impact with communities like the Arab American community there, for sure. Yeah, I do want to echo this point of the margins mattering, because I do really think that
the margins could be very tight in a number of states. There's not a whole lot of wiggle room. And in addition to Michigan, which has a very sizable Arab-American population, the state that I have heard about again and again and where I spent some time reporting on this issue was Georgia. President Biden won the state of Georgia by around 11,000 votes. And when I was down in this state a couple of months ago, what was striking to me was
was that I didn't just hear from Muslim voters or Arab American voters. I heard deep concern about this issue from black voters as well and from sort of the young organizers in the state. So, yes, I do think that Harris has an opportunity here. This is what I hear from folks within the Arab American community. They say that she's not viewed as being as toxic, perhaps, as President Biden is within their community. I spoke with Rua Roman about this. She's a Georgia state legislator, a Palestinian American.
I can tell you right now that if I had, for example, tried to go to a mosque or Arab community event and urged them to vote for Joe Biden, I would never be invited back. The anger was so deep and the hurt was so deep. Even for me, I tell people that. And I think people would at least be open to hearing from her and to let her make her case.
And I should say, part of the reason we're talking about this, and this is in the news, is because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to Congress this week, and he meets with Biden, Harris, and Trump during his visit. I think it's notable, Sue, that
Vice President Harris did not attend that speech in Congress? No, and she certainly wasn't alone in that regard. Democrats almost had a hard time finding someone to preside over that address. Patty Murray, who's a Washington senator, who's the Senate pro tem, who usually would preside over a joint address, said, thanks, but no thanks. I'm not going to be there. Former Speaker Nancy Pelosi did not attend. I mean, scores of Democrats didn't show up for this. And I think that it's an important part of the politics here is that I think that there is
an opposition to the Netanyahu government, certainly within the Democratic Party. And this goes back many years. This is not a new thing. And so I think that one of the things that Kamala Harris has to do, which other Democrats are trying to do, is walk this line in which they're trying to send a very pro-Israel message about the U.S.-Israel alliance and that the U.S. will continue to fight for the existence of the state of Israel
But they are not happy with the Netanyahu government, and they are not happy with the current state of talks to get hostages released that includes American citizens. So what I think is interesting to me about Kamala Harris and Asma knows this far better than me, but
She is kind of a blank slate in this because she doesn't come to this. None of her political offices have come by way of foreign policy. This isn't an arena in which I think of her as someone who has much depth of experience. And quite frankly, even as someone who covers politics and politicians, I'm not entirely sure how she shaped her foreign policy worldview. So a lot of people are looking at her to see how she articulates
this, especially as she shifts into candidate mode. Like, of course, she shared all of Biden's positions when she was his vice president. That's what the vice president does. Does she attempt to draw any distinctions from him in that arena is one of the big questions that we're now watching going into the election. Yeah. And I don't know that we're
We can anticipate seeing a whole lot of distinctions between now and Election Day, because as you say, Sue, she's trying to speak to different constituencies of the Democratic Party at the same time. She, of course, wants to win back some of the political left that was disenchanted with how President Biden had handled this conflict. At the same time, she also wants to ensure that she retains support from some of the strong supporters of Israel in the Democratic Party.
So, you know, I do wonder to what degree it behooves her politically to stake a real firm position in the ground. Yeah. All right. We're going to take a quick break. Before we do, please take a second to hit the follow button in your podcasting app if you haven't already. OK, more in just a moment. Support for NPR and the following message come from SimpliSafe Home Security.
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And we're back. What's interesting about this moment, as Sue mentioned, is that folks are seeing Harris as sort of a blank slate right now. They're projecting a lot onto her. And one of those things that could be projected onto her is the sort of anger that she might be inheriting for Biden. You know, some culpability that voters feel on this issue. Asma, what do you make of how Harris is sort of like navigating this?
I mean, look, she has been the vice president. And so by definition, her job is to support and uphold the policies of the president. That's what the job is. And so I think now as she is running for office, you hear her on the stump. And I would say it's not just about whether we're talking about foreign policy. You hear this on a whole range of things. She doesn't really articulate a clear policy vision that's distinct from what we've seen from decades.
the Biden administration to date. She talks about reproductive rights. She talks about trying to lift up the middle class. These are all themes that we've seen from Joe Biden over these last several years. I will say I do think that there might be distinctions, again, in tone and style and emphasis. She is somebody who has really championed reproductive rights, and you can imagine she will lean heavily into that
But largely, you know, she didn't go through a primary cycle. So she did not have to stake out clear positions on policy to differentiate herself within the Democratic Party. One of the things that Kamala Harris benefits from right now is that I do think a significant chunk of the electorate in our poll back this up this week in terms of the number of undecideds growing as she became the candidate is
is that she does have a window of time in which they're giving her the benefit of the doubt. They're listening to what she has to say. And what is different before that, and I talked to so many campaign strategists and pollsters who said this, in a race that was Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, they were so well-defined. The country's mind was so made up that people had actually sort of tuned out this election because there was nothing they could say that would make people change their minds.
And for so many Americans, like she is kind of a blank slate. Like they might know who she is, but they don't have fully formed and strongly felt opinions for her outside of obvious, you know, partisan voters. And I think that she has a window of opportunity to appeal to them. Now, ultimately, she may not be that successful at it, right? Like this could not ultimately play to her advantage. But she has what neither of those men had is a certain chunk of the electorate willing to sit and listen to her positions on things. And that is
It right now is a huge advantage. It could become a disadvantage if at the end of that, these voters are like, no, no, no, no, no. She's she's too liberal. She's to this, which is exactly what Republicans are trying to do right now is paint her as someone who is to the left of Joe Biden, who would be, you know, in their words, quote unquote, more of a socialist style Democrat. And she's going to have to both define herself and deflect that attack.
So is it realistic that Vice President Harris can run out the clock on this? Presumably the conflict could be resolved by the time the election happens, which I'm assuming is what Vice President Harris is probably hoping for. Well, the Biden administration is very eager to
to land this ceasefire deal that would lead to the end of the war in Gaza. And we were told by a senior administration official yesterday that they're in the closing phase of this deal. I mean, there are gaps that still remain. And I feel like we've heard iterations of that language before that they're sort of within the 10-yard line of this deal. And then the deal has not yet materialized. So, you know, it's
She could try to refrain from saying very much about this conflict over the next several months. But I think there's two reasons why that will be very difficult. And I would say that because she will be pushed both on the right and the left to comment on this. And I think a case in point was a statement that she issued earlier today about some of the protests against Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu. She said yesterday that at Union Station in Washington, D.C.,
There were, quote, despicable acts by unpatriotic protesters. And she specifically condemned the burning of the American flag and what she described as pro-Hamas graffiti and rhetoric. And, you know, that is a statement that was, one, issued by her and not the president, which I think is notable and speaks to the fact that she does have to engage on this issue and she will be politically forced to do so. But secondly, I will say it struck me as a very forceful condemnation that,
was a bit, again, different in tone than what she has said before. She told The Nation magazine in an interview earlier that young people protesting the war were, quote, showing exactly what the human emotion should be as a response to Gaza. Here again in her statement today, she acknowledged that people have the right to peacefully protest, but was very clear that there's no place for hate, violence, anti-Semitism in the nation. It also makes sense because,
Kamala Harris, the vice presidential candidate, was sort of tapped to try to reach out to the progressives and the base and keep people in the tent. And Kamala Harris, the presidential candidate, has to appeal to the middle and to broader American ideals. And it's really not that hard to condemn people trashing and slandering.
you know, spray painting Hamas across American landmarks. I mean, that's a pretty typical American presidential statement. And I think those are the subtleties in which you see her sort of switch from being a supporter of Biden to the one trying to replace him. I think the other place where she will be pushed on this issue is also from Republicans. You know, earlier, Sue, you mentioned she did not preside over this joint address in Congress that Netanyahu delivered yesterday. It's something that vice presidents...
typically do. Her team cited a scheduling conflict, but I saw that House Speaker Mike Johnson told Jewish Insider that it was a, quote, terrible symbolic gesture and suggested she would pay a price for it politically. And I'd imagine Republicans will be fairly united in trying to criticize her and paint her as being not as pro-Israel as they are. Yeah. All right. Well, let's leave it there for today. I'm Ashley Lopez. I cover voting. I'm Asma Khalid. I cover the White House. And I'm Susan Davis. I cover politics.
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