There's No Crying in Politics
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Rise and shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm Bea Spear. And I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream, presented by Betches News. Where we explore the absurdities and oddities of our uniquely American experience. And there is one more day until election day. One more day. It is tomorrow. One day more. Another day, another destiny. Oh my God, a revolutionary song. I know, we're singing. You can't say one day more and not sing it. I hear them.

I'm at the barricade, bitch. I'm fucking here. I'm ready. I'm ready to go. I just need it to be over. And at the same time, don't you feel a little bit like,

But right now, Joe Biden's president. Yes, I do feel both those things. And I'm having a good time with my friends, organizing and feeling excited. I know. Right. Like if someone was like, okay, you can stay in this forever or you could let it keep going. Like, or you could, maybe he'll be president. Maybe she'll be president. I'd be like, let's stay here. Let's just keep it going. Let's keep the vibe. Let's just stay here. We don't need to risk this. Oh my God.

Speaking of friends who keep the vibes going, we have a very special guest today. Her name is Jen Psaki from MSNBC, formerly press secretary for Biden, general good friend and a cool person. I'm excited to talk to her today about how she's feeling about the media, the election. What's up? It's a good chat. It's like a chat with your gals. It was. It was a gal pal group chat. Jen, she's the best. All right, here we go.

Welcome, friends. I am super excited today. We have another special guest from MSNBC. You could call her the press secretary that made Under the Desk what it is on account of giving me the original legitimacy when I got invited to that Ukraine press briefing. So she's here. Jen Psaki, welcome to the show. It's great to be here.

I mean, I am honored to get any credit for your legitimacy. I don't think I deserve it, but thank you for that. You absolutely do. I was, you know, under my desk doing my thing. And then sooner be known to me, the White House knew my phone number and was like, hey, we'd like we like what you're doing and we'd like to help you get really good information.

And I really appreciate that. So that was very cool. Tells you a lot. It was like controversial at the time. It was. I still don't understand. Yeah, we were on Saturday Night Live. It was a whole thing. You sure says SNL depicted it? I know. Just sharing information, everyone. I know. I have a screenshot of me like...

You're giving the briefing, which I'm sure was very professional. That was like two years ago, almost three years ago now. Well, welcome to the show, Jen. Thank you, guys. It's so great to be talking to you. How are you feeling? What's going on? I'm feeling every feeling at one time, which I think is how everyone I talk to feels. Excited, hopeful, anxious, nervous. I'm having crazy dreams and nightmares and anxiety.

So I'm feeling every feeling at once. And I'm the daughter of a therapist. So I'm allowing myself to feel every feeling at once. Good. That's the way to do it. Have you cried? I have not cried yet because we don't know anything. I know. I like... I...

I used to work in restaurants. Did you ever work in restaurants? I did. I was a waitress in college. So, you know, you got to like sometimes you're just having a stressful shift. You got to go on the walk in and cry quick. Makes you feel better. We haven't even gotten to walk in cries yet. We're still we're still in the weeds. Sometimes you got to get it out. And I remember still this. I think part of the anxiety right now, at least that I'm feeling, I think a lot of people are feeling is living through 2016 and

And having this perception and expectation of what the outcome was going to be. And then that was not the outcome. And I remember just to go back to your crying theme here, because also a healthy cry is okay. Sometimes you got to get out of your system sometimes.

is the day after the election, being in meetings with senior staff in the White House and members of the cabinet crying, right? And so listen, we're all allowed to cry if needed about what you're worried about on a personal level, your rights, your freedoms, all of the things. But I don't, nobody needs to cry yet. Not yet. What is it like in your personal group chats? Not in your like DC insider group chats, like on,

I imagine you have a lot of people texting you from your personal life. So what is that like? First of all, I just almost, I like I'm going to pull one up because I just can't.

I love, I have the greatest friends from college who are, care about all of the things women care about, but are not ingrained in politics at all. None of them work in politics. Sometimes when I've had various jobs, they're like, I don't even know what you do. One of these texts, I wish I could find it. It was something like, Jen, I don't know what you can share with us.

Like the early results. As if I have a secret. And actually the other day I was in New York a week ago and doing Chris Hayes' show. And we were talking about how people think we have some secret set of information and we do not. I mean, we are very in the polls. You're very closer into what's happening and you've lived through it in different ways before, but we do not know the outcome. So yes, there's that. And then there's also a lot of, I'm just so anxious. I'm just so anxious. What?

What does this mean? And everybody's an expert on early vote numbers in obscure counties. You know, there's a lot of analysis. It's like how everybody was a lawyer a year ago. Now everybody's an early vote expert. Do you know any persuadable voters personally or undecided or...

you know, people who you're actually like still kind of engaging with conversations. Because sometimes I feel like the undecided voters, they might not know that they're going to change their mind late breaking. It's more because like they might have thought they decided, but maybe some information gets to them like that he thinks Puerto Rico is garbage or that there was an Access Hollywood tape in 2016 that suddenly emerged and

you know, my guess is that that changes people's opinions and maybe they are not decided voters after all. True. Look, I think what's so interesting about politics, obviously I love politics. A lot of people hate it, but is this, we all can't predict how the public or human beings are going to respond to events because human beings are human beings, right? And a year ago I used to get asked a lot, well, what's going to be the determinant of

And I would say, we have no idea. And I'm not trying to skirt the question. It's just, we don't know. Because to your point, Sami, I mean, the events like the comedian's comments at the crazy Trump rally have sparked this reaction from Puerto Ricans across the country and others. Now, it's been surprising to me because of this. Were you not tracking that Trump was a complete racist? But maybe not.

And maybe this was the thing that made people feel like, oh, he hates my community and my people. And so it's hard to my point is it's hard to predict. And you don't know, even as somebody who's been through a lot of campaigns and politics and all the things, exactly what's going to have the impact. The Access Hollywood tape, it felt like I remember thinking it's over. That's it.

It certainly wasn't. But have you seen that now Gen Z is apparently discovering the Access Hollywood tape? Oh, really? Yeah, and it's now going viral again. And people are like, this is disgusting. And the people are filming themselves listening to it on TikTok. It is disgusting. Well, they were 10 the first time it came out, so that makes sense to me. But I know things that happened when I was 10, when I was 20. It's not like you just don't know anything happened.

But I don't know. Maybe there's a different information environment than when we were children. And if you don't get the information, you don't get it. That's true. And maybe there were things that we didn't all universally know about Trump at that time. Or I don't...

broadly as a public or as a 10 year old, I suppose, that now has almost been confirmed, right? He's a sexual assaulter, right? He is a person who speaks in a misogynistic, creepy way about women. Some of those things were knowable, but now it's been confirmed for eight years since that tape. And maybe the tape feels like

different to people, right? It's not an anomaly. It's a part of a pattern, a part of a persona. Well, now I'm thinking, I'm like, okay, well, what else can we resurface that people don't know? Because Home Alone 2, I'm going to put it out there. I'm going to be like, he was rude to that. No, that's iconic. That's iconic. No, we can't. Just wait till you hear what he says about Putin and what he says about, remember there was like a Miss America contestant. There's a lot of things.

Now I'm questioning what I assumed was, quote unquote, baked in, as they call it. And is the idea of things being baked in even applicable? Because I feel like if we see that there really were more votes for Kamala Harris than were anticipated, I feel like the story is going to be that

the electorate is not as easily fleeced as maybe they used to be or that certain politicians thought that they were. Yeah. I hate when people say it's baked in because it's like, why are you in the position of speaking on behalf of every human being in this country? Right. I don't care what data you look at. Baked in makes the assumption that nobody is movable.

and put yourself outside of politics, people are movable about all sorts of things, right? About their positions on a range of issues,

Just, you know, look over the course of time. People change their opinions all the time. Look at how people look at Travis Kelsey two years ago versus how they look at him now. Like that is the work of public. You are a public relations professional. If it weren't possible to change people's opinions, then there wouldn't be a billion dollars spent on advertising. And it's just like people want to act like nothing will ever move anyone anymore.

But I don't believe that voters are as stupid as they think. Maybe they're ill-informed, but that's a different story. True. Look, I'm Travis Kelsey as a Swifty. I will say I...

did not have any idea who he was. And I feel like I'm hardly alone before he started dating Taylor Swift. When you say what people thought of Taylor Swift, of Travis Kelsey, I thought not much because I didn't know who he was, which I'm sure I'm not alone. You're not. And then what people think of Taylor Swift changes every fucking six months. So it's changeable. So on this show, you know, we have talked about the fact that Kamala Harris needs to win the vote, the count, the certification and the violence.

Can you give us an idea into how the campaign is getting ready for the different forms of interference that can and likely will go down after Election Day? I wasn't on the campaign in 2020, and I'm not on it now, obviously, but here's what I can have observed, right? In 2020, nobody anticipated exactly what was going to happen, which was, of course, the

you know, often as shorthanded as January 6th. But the reality is it all started, so this to go to the core of your question here, with local officials feeling that their role was not actually administrative. It was to put their stamp on an outcome that wasn't aligned necessarily with the people who they were representing or whose votes they were, you know, officially confirming.

What I think is the campaign, and you can see this in terms of how much they're spending on money for legal apparatus, which is multiples of what it was four years ago, how they're talking about what we're seeing the Trump team and the RNC prepare for, which certainly they weren't doing four years ago because it wasn't known. So to me, what I see as different is that they're better preparing the public, not the broad swath. I'm not saying 300 million people are tracking all of this.

But for the likelihood that if Harris wins, Trump is going to question it. He's probably going to come out the night of and say it and that he is going to attempt to repeat challenges to the voters. Well, do you think he might?

have like gotten ahead of his skis by saying that too soon so that no one actually believes him before he has any shred of evidence? Well, here's the crazy thing, which is just I still don't understand it. I mean, the majority of the registered Republicans still think he won 2020, right?

I mean, in a sane world, I would say, yes, should anybody be saying the election is rigged and I won the election when actually it hasn't even been decided yet? Now, even in 2016, an election he won, he was saying beforehand the election is rigged. And then he just stopped saying it because he was like, I won. It's not right, obviously. So.

I think what he's trying to do is prime his own people to feel enraged, not to convince the majority of the public, right? But to prime his own people. And you see this in things that he and his followers are doing, like suggesting that people who are undocumented immigrants who wouldn't legally be able to vote in the United States are voting in broad swaths of people. That is not a thing. It

It has not happened before. It is not happening now. Many officials of all parties have confirmed that. But they're already priming the pump on that. Right. And so you see inklings of that. You know, the other thing they've done is they've this hasn't really impacted the polling averages that people look at, but they have flooded the zone with polls that don't have the level of

of main polls from major news organizations so that they can have those to lean into. And then they have people tweeting them and they have Elon Musk, who I think is a character who is not spoken about nearly enough in terms of his impact.

So that afterwards they can say, well, we Trump was ahead in Wisconsin by 17 points, which, by the way, that state was only one. The last four years. Right. There you go. But, you know, but that state was one by one under one point in the last two elections. Like nobody's up by 17 point. I mean, it's just not. So you see the things they're doing. So getting ahead of his skis.

his goal is to get his people primed to say it was rigged after the election. That's his goal. Do you think there's this many people around? I mean, I don't know. I'm like, you know, 2020, those people are still in jail. And the people who did go in jail and got out jail that thought would never go to jail, you don't hear from them nearly. I mean, you'll hear from Bannon, but like that Jenna woman or whoever, like she's not really around anymore. They're like, shit, you really didn't do anything for me. Do you think that the energy's there? I think so.

think there's different levels of energy. One of my favorite quotes, which is kind of a weird, dark thing to say as a favorite quote, was this guy who was there on January 6th as a part of the insurrection, who basically was quoted saying, yeah,

well, I'm with them, but like, I'm not going to do that again. Right. You know, I mean, I'm wondering, you know, there is that. And, you know, this is kind of one of the strategies the Department of Justice did was they went after all of these people first. Let's hope we haven't seen a replication of the kind of marching toward violence. But there are still people who are election deniers who are in positions to play a role.

And, you know, Mike Johnson, who was just a random member of Congress then, is now the Speaker of the House.

And he was a person who was willing to help back then and is clearly willing to help now. And Trump picked J.D. Vance, who obviously was not even in the Senate then, and he has said he'd be happy to help now. So let's hope, and obviously violence is the scariest version of all of this, but there are still people who are election deniers who are in positions to mess with the process.

Knowing how boiled we are as frogs, what has it been like to spend the last 10 years thinking about Trump? I mean, like, yeah, your whole career, right? Well, not your whole career, but the last 10 years. Every single day you wake up and we have to deal with this man. Yeah, it's wild. I mean, you know, when he first emerged on the scene...

Did your newborn know about the Access Hollywood tape?

Right. My then one year old now, she's nine now. She'd be horrified. That's the thing that the kids are saying, though. They've never grown up in a world in which Donald Trump wasn't on the ballot. Like they've never known another candidate. And it's just so weird. It is weird. And people who are a little bit older than my daughter, you know, those 10 year olds or the people who are 15 or people who were I went door knocking in Michigan last weekend and I door knocked with these two young women who were 16 when Hillary Clinton lost.

and it propelled them to get into politics. You know, it's just interesting. And that was obviously to Trump. Their whole political awareness has been with him as a big figure. I would say, you know, there is a darkness to him and to the aura around him that is, I feel as a person who loves politics and disagreement about nerdy things,

there's a sadness to it. I mean, for me, because, you know, my first campaign was in 2002 when I worked for the Iowa coordinated campaign and Harkin, Senator Harkin and Governor Vilsack were running, right? That was a different time, you know, when

When I worked for Obama and traveled with him when he was running against John McCain and Mitt Romney, it's a time where we felt like we have to win because it's existential. It's like it wasn't actually, it turns out. See, because I was working for Mitt Romney at that time as a little baby Republican because sometimes that happens to you. You vote like your dad and soon to be known to you, you're the lead caterer for the RNC. But I didn't think it was a big deal. I mean, I was like, oh, he'll win or he won't. I don't care. You were right, apparently.

Yeah, he signed gay marriage as the governor of Massachusetts. He'll probably let it happen federally. It was like, eh, it was whatever, you know? He would never be allowed in the party now. I know. Well, that was the problem then was the Tea Party kicking off in 2012. Do you think that because these younger voters have never known anyone but him and they have seen him as the president, do you think that that has normalized him for them and then the level of what politics is has just...

And maybe that's why they're kind of nihilistic. I don't want to speak for everybody, but like it, you know, maybe they just think that the expectations are much lower. Yeah. For how you're supposed to act. Well,

Well, they are. Right. And there is this this bar of what what it requires to break through. Right. To break through and be in people's thinking. Right. My least favorite phrase, if yours is baked in, mine is what broke through. Nothing fucking broke through.

That's what I know. I was like, I hate this phrase. It's not your fault, but you know. You know, I think there has become, you know, I remember when Joe Biden was inaugurated and I started working for him. The first couple of months, there were these stories about how he was so boring. And it was like, well...

Well, I mean, and it wasn't that he as a person was boring. It was that it was boring to cover him. Yeah. And the thing about it is, is that policymaking is kind of boring at times, depending on what you're into. But it's, you know, and people were complaining. There's all these background briefings and briefings about policy proposals and everything.

At the time, I was like, look, I love all of the things about sports and celebrities and all sorts of things. I consume all sorts of information. But if you're going to cover government, this is kind of what it is, right? So I do think it's changed a little bit of the bar, not in a healthy way. And

You know, we've seen this impact. Harris and people have talked about this, but I'm a huge believer in this. She put out like a 90 page economic plan. Right. She gave an economic speech and she did a lengthy interview and just done many interviews. And people are like, oh, I don't know people. She just needs to put out more details on her economic plans. And you're like, what are we talking about here? He doesn't have. Can you name any of his plans? They're being graded on different curves. And I think that's been one of the impacts.

that I've seen. We were actually saying this the other day to each other that like, I think what they're driven by is the adrenaline. Like, I actually think that maybe they, there is an addiction. And I think you see, I don't think you, this is unique to Trump supporters. I think you see this, you know, you saw this like click activism and you see this, you know, with the women's march. And I think that like the people think that politics is the adrenaline.

And so they're addicted to it and they can't like you can't get off the sauce of the celebrity of it. And so when Kamala Harris just has her like stock lines and isn't showing you a new stand up set at every rally and she doesn't have like the most perfect.

Pete Buttigieg on Fox News answer because she's fucking busy. Look, I think every politician has different strengths and being like an extremely good off-the-cuff speaker is not everyone's strength and it does not make you a bad political actor or public servant because that is not your number one thing. So it's like if she doesn't act like she is

like the order of the century, it's like, oh, I don't know. She seems a little, and then, but they're addicted to the adrenaline of him. So it's true. Yeah. Well, Jen, how do you think the news goes from here? Right? Like, can we, what will the news be? They'll be like, how genuinely, I mean, I'm like so much of this is centered around this lunatic, man, what are we going to do?

when he's gone? Well, he's not going to be gone. Well, let's say someday he'll be gone. Someday he'll be gone. What are we going to do when he's not running for president or something? Well, I think the thing is, is that he is now the Republican Party. I'm sorry. I know you want to look for Mitt Romney. And his aura is the Republican Party and his approach is the Republican Party.

I don't think that's that I don't I'm not a believer that that always has to be the case. You can't be there's an evolution. And when it doesn't work, there will be an evolution to something else.

But if Kamala Harris wins, I mean, I'm a believer. I know he said he wouldn't run again. Of course he's going to run again. He can't let go of this. What if he's in, you know, one jail? Yeah. Well, I mean, there is a sentencing scheduled, right? And we don't know what's going to happen, but he'll try to appeal it. That's going to take its own time and the expectations setting world. If she's elected that the legal cases will proceed, at least some of them will proceed. Certainly. So, um,

So that all will happen. So that's certainly possible. But he still can say he's running and still run even if he were in jail. That's how our system is set up, which is wild. But here we are in the United States of America. You know, so I think that is an interesting what has made I don't know if it surprised me as much as he is an electoral loser and yet people still stay with him and

And so I don't I don't that is obviously if he loses now, then he is like even I mean, he was an electoral loser in 2022. He was an electoral loser in 2020. If he loses now, it's like this is not a winning strategy, guys. But I don't know. I think they don't know how to untangle themselves. And all these people tried and they couldn't defeat him. So that feels like a huge, you

You know? Sammy calls them political parrot heads. They really just want to tailgate and do the merch and hang with him. They're fascist deadheads. Fascist parrot, fascist deadheads. Yeah, exactly.

Like they have a good way down street. I don't know if you're like, if you are familiar with his culture, but it's like, it's not about the music. It's about the culture and the, the following of it. Like the, I've been to X amount of shows. I've been to all, you see his rally in cans. It's like, it's an identity. And then when you actually talk to them, there is nothing to support.

what, like, even what he said, they don't even know what he's saying. He doesn't know what he's saying. Just Trump 2024 is the new rock and roll, man. Like it's the wildest cultural thing ever. I'm obsessed with Jordan Klepper. Have you guys watched Jordan Klepper's videos? There's so and he's not even he's just asking, like, so you think that the they control the what? I mean, they're just Yes, it's, um, it's hard to wrap your head around.

So, you know, one in three people get their news on TikTok and I am the OG of news anchors on TikTok. Some of the things that people will say to me, though, about why they don't like mainstream media often is they're like, all they do is talk about Trump. Do you think if Kamala wins, right?

there is an opportunity for you guys, you know, and like would management see it as beneficial to be like, hey, we actually just want to get back to what we're excellent at, which is reporting and investigating and like bringing people the truth as we know it and not always being in reaction to what Trump is. I think the greatest day on television was the day that Tucker Carlson got taken off Fox because then Rachel Maddow didn't have to be in reaction to him to almost correct everything that this madman said. She could like do her own shit. Like, do you think that could happen?

Well, I think here's the challenge. Trump, until Trump is no longer in public as a figure, which no one in the media determines, is still a topic to cover. And there are so many iterations of this, and it is like a really interesting...

because it's like, first of all, I'm of the view that, and I'm not the only one, that if Kamala Harris wins and Trump challenges it and he's like out there doing press conferences every day, the media should not be covering that. That is not a legitimate, if Kamala Harris wins, there will be legal trials. The media will cover that. Of course they will. It's a former president who's on trial, right? Yeah.

So I think there's different iterations of it. You know, I think it's like the challenges people will say, I don't want to hear about Trump, but actually people watch things about Trump. It's the top performing content. It is the thing they watch. Yeah, it is a very tricky thing. Now, I'm also of the view that.

that there are a million other stories that are outside of Trump, right? Including in politics that are fascinating. So that is where it's incumbent upon whatever role you play in the media. And the media is a big, big, big space, as we all know, that

that the biggest contribution you can make is to bring a lot of that to the fray as well. Like what's happening in states? What's happening with policy issues? Why should we care about those things? How do they impact your lives? That's all hugely important too. But I think Trump going away is determined not by the media deciding no more Trump, it's by Trump going away.

An act of God, basically. Well, I don't know about that. You know, I mean, I just mean, you know, he's no longer the leader of the Republican Party and he is the Republican Party at this point in time. But Jen, it's so fun to blame the media for everything. Why can't we just blame the media for why Trump's popular? Why not?

There are books that have been written and could be written about this particular topic. And I think one of the challenges, if Trump is elected, is going to be certainly how people cover him. I know. Because, you know, I feel grateful for a million things like to be here. And you guys have this too. You say what you think and what you believe. Right. So do I. The challenge of being elected.

quote unquote, mainstream media, you know, down the middle in a moment like this is that most people in the media are believers in democracy and a free press and against a lot of the things that he's saying. And the traditional mantra is not to convey that.

I'm not held to that. But you know what I mean? That is a challenge. The objectivity problem. Well, I think there's like this idea that what journalists are supposed to do is take what each side says at face value and then repeat it when actually that's one piece of

a journalistic puzzle. And I sometimes wonder, I'm like, is it the media, quote unquote, as in, I don't feel like it's the individuals necessarily in most cases. But what it does feel like is it is the media business model that is broken. And now because of how it's been consolidated, you have

just such an imbalance and the incentives are so distorted that I really feel like it's more of a, an incentives issue than, uh, people are acting in bad faith and don't want to give stick, like stick truth to power, speak truth to power or whatever. So, um,

It's like a lot of problems intertwined. Yeah. I mean, look, I think there's all sorts of media. Right. So it's and, you know, there are war correspondents. I don't do what they do. None of us do. Unless you guys have secret lives you're not telling us about. No. There are wire reporters. There are all sorts of people who do different things. Right. Yeah.

But I also think that sometimes I think the media feels like it's about them, right? When really it's about your audience and the people you're communicating with, right? And to me, that doesn't require pretending that the sky is blue or red. The sky is blue, right? Or I am a believer that abortion rights are an important vital issue. Like I'm not gonna pretend I don't, nor is that my job too, nor is it anyone's expectations.

But I think that that sort of is a challenge. And the way to go back to TikTok, I mean, it is like one of the reasons, I think, but you tell me if you agree, people consume things so differently, right? Because they're looking for an authenticity of how people are

helping share their view of the world, right? Or helping people better understand the world. It doesn't mean everybody on TikTok is sharing everything that's factual. I'm not suggesting that. So true. But there is a world, and this is why I think it's more about the public ability to consume than it is about the reverse of that.

where people are just trying to understand what it all means, right? And you find your trusted sources. It's an interesting debate and a tough issue. And this is like a moment, as you all know, where there's a big evolution and how media companies think about it, but also how the public thinks about it. You've done a great job on TikTok, honestly. Thank you. I think it's been great to see you come from like an inside politics role to having the show on MSNBC to when I watch your TikToks and you're just kind of leaning in, it's like we're getting a backstage, okay, this is just Jen type. We should call it just Jen. I just like crowdfund my fans.

phone on my desk right here. And I'm like, okay, thank you for saying that. Yes, of course. But do you feel exhausted by that at all? Because it used to be, you know, you kind of only needed one job. And now it's like, there's so many places that you're needed. How do you feel? Here's why I see this is where I'm grateful that I came into this world from my past world. And even though people always think it's non traditional, and I'm like, I don't know, except for like,

Diane Sawyer, George Stephanopoulos, Tim Russert, like a bazillion people who worked in government before they worked in the media.

I have two shows a week, so I have two hours a week, right? Where I can figure out with my amazing team of people I get to work with who have often better ideas than I do. Think of things that we want to say about things, guests we want to have, conversations we want to have. Well, you guys know how it's basically 10 blocks of TV time, right? It's not, we never feel like there's enough time. Like there's always guests we want to have, always like things that we want to say or commentaries I want to do, you know?

And there's not enough space. And the nice thing about

having all these formats for it, people may agree with me, disagree with me, consume it or not. I mean, that's the choice is that you can be like, I really wanted to say something about the Washington Post endorsement. We just have a space in our show. So I just did a video, right? And it's like, this is my thought on this. And that I think is the gift, right? And I also, this is the other thing I love about it is that you can engage in different ways. TV is still a medium, as we all know, where you're talking at people, right? And you're trying...

I really want it to be like, I want people to feel like we're having a conversation. And what's nice about the medium of other platforms is that you can have more of a conversation. I think that's a good thing. When you're thinking about

those 10 blocks you're going to fill. And you know, I only have X amount of time and I have important stories. How are you like making those calls with what should go in there and what might need to get cut? Oh God. First of all, I have an executive producer who's amazing, right? And so super grateful for that. And senior producers and a whole team who are so smart. And I bounce a

they come up with ideas and we bounce them off of each other. So that's a big part of the process.

But we think about it this way. Where is there a place where we can offer something unique to the audience? Right. If people want to read a straight news story about what is happening in a particular issue, sometimes we'll do a quick newsreader because it's important. But I know not important, but it's like it's it's in the rubric of what's happening. But we think of ourselves as more like people.

What are our audience sitting at home thinking they just don't understand? They want to learn more about? That's like very much on their minds right now. Last week, I was thinking about how everybody I was talking to was feeling anxious, right? And to me, it was like, how do you address that anxiety? So we basically started the show like...

Hey, I know you're feeling anxious. We don't know what's going to happen. Here are some things not to feel anxious about. Right. And let's talk about this with people who know a lot, including Jenna Mellie Dillon. Now we're thinking about our show for Sunday and like what's on the minds of people. Right. And you think about it through a couple of perspectives. It's two days out from an election. It's like the end of what has been the craziest political season of since I've been alive. Right.

And also a lot of crazy stuff happened this week. So how do you kind of meet that and what it feels almost to me overwhelming the amount of information that you're supposed to be looking at? And this is like where you go back to like early vote numbers. You know, I'm I have a I've looked at early vote numbers before, but I even feel overwhelmed by the amount of data.

It's like, how do you simplify it? So to me, it's thinking about it through that perspective. And then you still never have enough time for all the things you want to talk about and all the people you want to talk to. And that's also a truth, which is a real gift because it means you love what you're doing. All those things are true at the same time. They need to give you more nights. That's it.

That's the solution. I was just saying that. I was just saying, you just like, you'll see them that are like the sixth or seventh block that you're like, oh, I want like seven more minutes, you know? Well, I appreciate your TikTok stardom and that we get those little one-off thoughts because I think it does fill in the picture. And like I've always said, and

felt it was the responsibility of like TikTok journalists to really rebuild that trust with traditional media too, because we exist best when we help each other, right? Like oftentimes I'm talking about something that I watch on MSNBC or something I read in the Washington Post. Similarly, they're covering TikTok and culture and whatnot. And it's like, it's not one or the other, it's all. And I think it's been really cool the way that you have

created like a new world for people to build that trust with you again and be like, oh, that's just Jen. And then she also does the show and she's not a bad person and we should trust her. We should trust people who deliver us this information because Lord knows we could be doing a million other things. But Jen, tell us where you're going to be on election night so we can watch you.

Oh, thank you. Let me, can I just say something about you guys as a listener? I love that because I am always a believer that people are interested in so many different things. And I love that you guys talk about serious stuff, but you also talk about like pop culture stuff and you talk about so much.

And that is how my girlfriends and everybody I know talks. Right. And I so appreciate that. And I've started watching some shows like Tell Me Lies. I've started watching that show now. Nice. Oh, my gosh. First season. And I'm like, oh, I know. But I already listened to one where you guys talked about something. Anyway.

That aside, we should talk about that offline because I talk about doing that because I think people sometimes forget that everybody's human beings and we all have lots of interest. OK, election night. I'm going to be on MSNBC. Our special coverage starts at 6 p.m.

So the one and only Rachel Maddow, who's the best, is anchoring that. She's the team captain, team leader. So I'll be in and out of that. And we'll be on the air. I'll be on the air in some capacity until like six in the morning. Yeah. Anytime. This is such a treat for me. All.

All night, but we'll be just bringing on things. It's super exciting. And Steve Karnacki, we're just going to keep him hydrated and alive. Everybody needs to see Steve Karnacki. It's the most important thing. I am super excited to see it. We're hosting a pizza party stream so you can be watching MSNBC on your TV. Coming to our pizza party. We're just celebrating democracy. We're voting on who the best dogs are and doing all kinds of fun stuff. Broadway performances.

It's like Thanksgiving Day parade, but make it election night. And we only go till 2 a.m. because, you know, I get tired. You keep going till 6. We'll throw you one of those breakfast beans. Yes, please. So we'll be having a lot of fun with you that night and certainly tuned in. Do you think we'll have an answer? We may. Here's the thing. I think that there's been this, again, a little PTSD from 2020. Like we're not going to know for days.

But there's no evidence that suggests we know that. We won't know for days. We might know on election night. We might know by 2 a.m. was my guess. It could be two. You think two? Okay, we'll see. So just when your show is ending? I think what's going to happen is my show is ending and then at 2.30 they call it.

Oh, well, that would be. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it. We'll hop back on. We'll see, but we may know. Look, maybe it'll be 2016. She gets North Carolina and Georgia. We'll see. Maybe it'll be 2016, but the opposite way. You know how like it was all this blind confidence, but no one was going to her rallies. I feel like that's maybe what we're seeing flipped.

My 2016 story is that I was at a party, election night party. I was the White House communication director. We're all at this party. We're thinking we know the outcome. Our friends who work for Hillary Clinton are going to come the next day. We're going to give them our binders because we're all nerdy policy people, right?

At this party, it was a mixture of political people, cabinet members, stuff like that, and then nonpolitical people. And some of the Florida results are coming in. And Jack Lew, who was the Treasury Secretary at the time, very buttoned up, smart, lovely person, comes up to me and he was like, I have to go watch this at home in my pajamas. And I was like, oh, God. Yeah.

That was my sign that things were not. I just know that sinking feeling. I'll never, it's like, it goes all down here. Yes. I know. Well, yes. We'll send some pizza over to the studio so you can enjoy the pizza party too. Thank you. We love it. Maybe we celebrate at 630. If, uh, if it ever does. I've already thought about it. A bagel. Oh,

Oh, yes. That is a good post election night snack. I love that. Jen Psaki, thank you for being here today. Thank you for always being a champion of new media and helping open the door for more folks, especially women and people who don't always get a chance. It's really great to know there's folks like you out there. My pleasure. Thank you guys for everything. Thank you so much. Until next time, I'm Bea Spear. And I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream. Good night.

American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatzik. Social media by Candice Monega and Bridget Schwartz. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Betches News and follow me, Sammy Sage at Sammy and V at Under the Desk News. And of course, send us your emails to AmericanFeverDream at Betches.com.