If You Shut Up, People Will Talk ft. Bob Woodward
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Rise and shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, friends. I'm Bea Spear. And I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream presented by Betches News. Where we explore the absurdities and oddities of our uniquely American experience.

Today, we've got a super special guest. The iconic journalist Bob Woodward is here to talk about his new book, War. War is an intimate and sweeping account of one of the most tumultuous periods of presidential politics in American history. We're talking about Biden trying to navigate the war in Ukraine, relations with Israel, and his personal life, including how Hunter's issues have factored into the president's role, not just as commander in chief, but also dad.

We'll also get a look at B.B. Harris as she tries to embrace the Biden legacy and policies while beginning to chart a path of her own as a presidential candidate. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you. Great to be here. So before we get into the book, you know, there's been a lot of talk back and forth about legacy media versus new media and what is journalism. What's your hot take on the current state of the news? Well, it's all of the above, the new, the old.

I think we've got to reform ourselves, frankly. My general approach is to be very, very aggressive. Sometimes people think too aggressive. I think as long as you're polite and observe the rules, you can't be too aggressive. The basic premise is

So many things are hidden and kept from the public. So if you are passive, you're not going to get there. What are some examples of things that people would critique you for being too aggressive about? Oh, showing up at people's homes, even in my old age without appointments.

calling after 11 o'clock. Sometimes people think 11 o'clock is the cutoff line. Not for me. The cutoff line is I've gone to see people at their homes after 11 o'clock. And if they'll let you in, you can

do your job. If they won't, that's fine. Well, they don't have to answer. You know, that's really on them. No, of course they don't answer. But the theme line in all of this is people like to talk. People want to give their point of view. And I...

to make sure that I include everyone's point of view, even if it is absurd or undermined by the facts. Let people have their say. You got a lot of heat, and you do every single time a book comes out, because people are like, Mr. Woodward, you're getting all of these great quotes from people. Shouldn't you be releasing them in the Washington Post straight off? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

publishing and why it's so important to sort of like have a full story to publish as a book as opposed to an article? Well, that obviously is the ideal, but many times over the last 53 years working at the Post, I'm digging on a book and come across something that needs to be in the paper. And I go to the editors and, um,

We put it in the paper. So that takes priority. And then you have to go back to your sources and say, I'm going to the post. And, you know, one of the things that's interesting, people will discuss and say, wait a minute, you knew this in a book. Why didn't you tell us at the time?

The simple fact is you didn't learn them at the time. You learned data in the process of researching, sometimes months, sometimes even longer than that. In this book, War, we went back to 2021, three years ago, had to start that back. And one of the things you find if you

Yeah, somebody says something in 2021, but the context of what that actually means may not be available until well afterwards. Yes.

Yeah, something I love about you is that you record everything. I've seen your little recorder out. And so, I mean, Bob's going to have you on the record, off the record. And some of this reporting, as you said, was... On the record. On the record. Background so you can use it. But...

It's never a concealed recorder. It's out on the table with the permission of the people. Yes. I've been lucky enough to be at your house one time and be recorded. And you do make people feel super comfortable when they're talking. So that's quite a skill that you have. People, no, it's not. People want to be heard. Yeah. The hardest thing.

thing often is to listen. And I have a little technique. I put this finger over my little finger and jam it down in when I'm doing an interview at times and it hurts and it reminds me to shut the F up. I love that.

I'm going to have to use that. You get two fingers in here and, you know, shut the F up. Really, really shut the F up. If that's what has gotten all this amazing information into the world, that is a helpful secret. Well, in the CIA, they will tell people, let the silence suck out the truth. Sometimes that's true.

Love that. In another world, you could have been a psychologist, it sounds like. I don't know. I think reporters are psychologists to a certain, psychiatrists to a certain extent. I think you're right about that.

So getting into the book, one of the most interesting parts that I thought was actually the epilogue where you speak about Biden's leadership in the context of all the other administrations that you reported on and just their approach to you in terms of transparency and in terms of intention. So can you talk and give a little bit of context regarding why you felt that was a necessary step

framing to include. Because normally over 50 years plus, I've written about scandal and things that are not working that are a problem. And what I found, and this was hard. And I say that in the book, it was hard because

to deal with an administration that had a not perfect, making lots of mistakes, no doubt about that, but they kind of set a course. And that course, which is absolutely critical, the president in December 2021 publicly saying, I'm not sending U.S. troops to

to fight in Ukraine. He knew Vietnam, he's 81 years old, he knew the mistakes that were made in Vietnam and what he did

By keeping U.S. troops out, he made the homeland safe. People are not attacking the United States directly. Now, there are lots of problems. There's lots of violence in the world. I think it is a time now.

as they say in the CIA, and I quote the CIA director Bill Burns essentially saying, at this time, all

the warning systems are blinking red. That's what happened before the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Does that mean things are going to crumble or they're going to be real problems? Don't know. High, high likelihood. And the term they use in the government, particularly intelligence agencies, is

inadvertent escalation. In other words, we're in a situation with country or whatever's going on, and all of a sudden there is this inadvertent escalation. Something happens, something blows up, something is misinterpreted, or you have a situation like we have now, which I report in the book

Kim Jong-un, the leader of North Korea, has nuclear weapons. He has them hardened. He has them dispersed. He has them concealed.

And he has an alliance with Russia. And as I report in the book, they are trying to perfect a way, the North Koreans, Kim Jong-un, to put a nuclear weapon on a missile that can reach the United States. They have not yet achieved that, but...

They are working on it. And according to the CIA, been working on this for years. So that will get everyone's attention. There was so much in this book that, that did, that was attention grabbing, but speaking, you know, just to the, the Biden administration and how they handled, they handled all of these really significant challenges. His foreign policy expertise does really come through and his,

The administration really – this phrase kept coming to mind – speak softly and carry a big stick. They really sort of take this old school, quiet, de-escalatory approach to foreign policy. And I wonder if you – because you also speak about how he talks about Obama in the book –

And do you think that his hindsight evaluation of Obama's administration in terms of foreign policy plays into how Biden is making decisions now? Well, in a private meeting, I quote Biden saying that Barack, meaning Obama, didn't in Biden's view, did not understand Putin.

and understanding Putin and what happened during the Obama presidency. Putin took Crimea, took the Donbas, and there was a kind of, "Oh, well, we're not going to be involved in that." But the theme line, and I'm sure you see it in your organization,

Have a great team. Have people who have definite responsibilities and do it well. Let's look at the Biden team. Not perfect, made a good deal of mistakes. But Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor, very experienced. As a practical matter, Biden has given him

not final decision making, but in the day-to-day management of foreign policy, lots of power. Bill Burns, the CIA director, somebody who'd been a diplomat, in fact, had been the United States ambassador to Russia some years back, and he knew Putin. See, the theme of the Biden presidency is let's turn down the heat.

Let's avoid unnecessary humanitarian disasters. One of the unexpected main characters in this book is Secretary of Defense Austin, somebody who's been kind of behind the scenes, but I have a verbatim transcript of when he calls the Russian army

Defense Minister Shogu and says to him, we know you're contemplating the use of the tactical nuclear weapon and gives a really it's all the details in the book, but a rather brilliant summary of exactly what you need to do when he said, you know,

Not ambiguously, he said, we know you are contemplating the use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine. And he laid out the consequences. Using nuclear weapons will change the world. And Biden and his people know that if it happens while Biden's presidency, that's going to be whatever the circumstances, it's going to be

So in this call in October 2022, which in the book, the verbatim transcript is there, Austin lays out all the reasons not to use a tactical nuclear weapon. And Shogu, who's the defense minister in Russia,

says to him, I don't take kindly to being threatened. In other words, being injured. No, this is Austin's comeback according to the authenticated transcript I have.

Austin says, Mr. Minister, talking to the Russian defense minister, I am the leader of the most powerful military in the history of the world. I don't make threats. Secretary Austin. I love him. That scene was very defining for him, for me, in a way, you know, my perception of him and the administration, like he's,

Like there's not a flair for the dramatic, which I think is really respectable. Yes, but this is dramatic. Oh, yeah. This, I mean, as you said it, I mean, there are just so many moments that

My wife, Elsa Walsh, who worked at the Washington Post for years, was a staff writer for The New Yorker, talks about and writes about emotional truth. You have to not just understand the policy, the words, but the emotions that are driving the decisions in the debate. And sometimes, do you want to really...

kind of step into this because I think the precision of language is

important to understanding that this is the relationship between Biden and Bibi Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister. Who he called the biggest asshole in the world or something. Let me read some of the quotes. Yeah, please. I guess on your show, I can use it. You can swear. Yeah. Yeah.

That son of a bitch, Bibi Netanyahu, he's a bad guy. He's a bad effing guy. A bad fucking, I'm sorry, I'm saying that. He doesn't give an ass about Hamas. He gives an ass about only himself. Then Biden at one point to an associate said, why? This is so bad.

what Netanyahu's doing. Why hasn't there been an internal revolt, a strong revolt about just voting Bimby out of office somehow? Somehow just get him out of there. This is the president of the United States. And he goes on saying,

He's an effing liar. And this is the most vivid example of the President of the United States saying behind the scenes, 18 of the 19 people who work for him are effing liars. I don't know who the one is that isn't. I'm curious. Yes.

How do you think he squares that with the fact that, you know, in public, he's been like, we are an ally of Israel. We are going to continue to stay steady to this path, even though he knows he's kind of dealing with a madman over there. Well, these are the two faces of what goes on in politics and policymaking. And that is definitely true.

President Biden is once is the policy of his administration is we are allies of Israel. And essentially, we're pro-Israeli privately. What Biden's saying, he's not pro Netanyahu. That does seem to be the overall dynamic.

you know, with where we are now, what is your assessment of the Israel situation? And what will, what do you think will happen under a Harris administration? Do you think that the way she deals with the Israelis is going to change? Um, actually I found in, in the book, if you look under Harris, she's very, she's tough. She's tough.

There was a meeting just several months ago, a meeting July 25th in the ceremonial vice president's office that overlooks the White House. She is there with Bibi Netanyahu.

What Vice President Harris says to Netanyahu, according to the notes we've got, Harris says, I'm disturbed by the humanitarian situation in Gaza. It is unconscionable.

People are starving. This is a fascinating statistic she reels out. 4,000 people per toilet in Western Gaza. Now imagine sharing a toilet with 4,000 people. So she has this meeting with Netanyahu, and it's kind of, she's asking about starvation in Gaza.

And Netanyahu says, there's no starvation in Gaza and definitely there is no policy of starving people. Hamas puts its hands on the humanitarian assistance and Hamas loops the food. Now, there may be some of that, but there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, to say the least.

If you don't know what happens in the behind-the-scenes meeting, you don't understand what it means. And she's arguing with Netanyahu, saying, you know, we've got to do something about this crisis. And Netanyahu in the meeting says, no one should accuse me of not wanting a deal.

And then she goes out. There's a press briefing afterwards. And this is all public. But if you don't know what goes on behind the scenes before, you can't grasp the significance of this. She goes out and.

forcefully criticizes Israel's treatment of civilians in Gaza. And in public, she says, we cannot look away in the face of these tragedies. We cannot allow ourselves to become numb to the humanitarian suffering that's going on in Gaza. And she says publicly, I will not be silent

Netanyahu sees this, learns of it afterwards, and he's just furious because at the meeting it was kind of everything was fine and she's going out and delivering a real blast to him. But was it fine at the meeting? He was lying to her and she knew he was lying. So just because she won't accept his lies...

I wonder if that will change the dynamic. Really important question. But the matter of humanitarian mistreatment, crisis, unconscionable is all in degree. And for Netanyahu, it's not serious. It's not a problem. For her, she is very forceful. And this didn't

really ring in the public and with the news media because they didn't know the earlier but she was and what's interesting about her for me having Written about and tried to understand ten presidents. She's going to president school She is literally there

She's got the nomination. She's running against Trump. And each day she experiences and learns and has to make decisions. Now, it's going to be up to the public, obviously, whether to decide she's ready for the presidency and she'll be voted in or because of policy, because of dislike of Trump. But as you know,

at least it seems to be a real challenge.

down-to-the-wire race. I know. And, you know, it's been said that Harris's approach is diplomatic in private and forceful in public. And then up against Trump, who has praised Putin, has praised Hezbollah as very smart. Tiffany Trump married a guy named Michael Boulos, whose father is somehow a friend of Hezbollah. Can you talk a little bit about that? Well, I mean, marriage is, you know, that...

That's something Trump can't control. He will benefit from it, though. He does seem to benefit from the glow of Jared Kushner quite a bit. Right. Well, we'll see. We'll see. Trump has this relationship with Putin, which...

No one has, including me, is fully untangled. But just last week, he said if he did have contacts with Putin, quote, if I did it, it's a smart thing. If I did it, it's not a crime. It's not a matter of a crime, but it's a matter of policy. And CIA, I report in the book, CIA Director Burns said,

with all of his experience and directness, concludes this is his...

analytical summary of, says, quote, Putin manipulates. He's professionally trained to do that. Putin's got a plan, just as he did when Trump was in office at playing Trump. So here's the CIA saying, this is a plan. This is what Putin's doing intentionally. And so we're in this world, as I mentioned, of

Lots of tension, but unplanned, inadvertent escalation can go like that. And all of a sudden, we are in a much more violent situation, particularly in the Middle East, but also in Ukraine, Russia.

Something that you do so well in this particular book is give a candid opinion of the key players here on the stage of like, will they, won't they, are we going to be okay?

For Putin, you quote his CIA profile saying he's defined by his extreme insecurity and impartial ambition. On Trump, you've said he's not only the wrong man for the presidency, he's unfit to run the country. Are these guys birds of a feather? How dangerous actually would a second Trump term be to our relationships, say with NATO on the world stage, into a potential escalation from Russia? Well, again...

Trump has his, he's going to, oh, he doesn't like NATO. So he's kind of threatened that we would remove ourselves from NATO. Now think about it. NATO is the alliance, one of the great alliances in the history of the world. And Trump's grievances are about some people who haven't paid attention.

the amount that they think they should pay for their own defense. Also, Trump has blamed Zelensky for the invasion of Russia. I mean, think about that. Blaming Zelensky, who really is a Churchillian figure of leadership, protecting his country from the

invasion and assault by Russia. The Defense Department Secretary Austin just released some statistics saying there's 650,000 casualties in this war. And this is the most violent place in the world or the most where the war between

Russia and Ukraine is a vast consequence. Look at the geography here. There's Russia, there is Ukraine, and then there's Poland. And I talked to President Duda of Poland, and what do you think about this? And he's terrified that Russia will take Ukraine

that Poland has a 315 mile border with Ukraine, if that goes to Russia, Duda said, we're next, we're next. So...

great consequence to Poland, to Europe, I think to the world order. And it's a war that the United States, I think wisely, doesn't have troops in, but we've sent billions of dollars of aid, as have other Western countries.

How big of a game changer was it that Biden, who was kind of a foreign policy giant, ended up stepping back? And, you know, you talk about his health throughout the book. Was this sort of inevitable?

Is there anything you can tell us about that decision and his own realizations about his own status? The June 27th debate performance was a catastrophe. And so let's see, he dropped out on the 21st of July. Do I have that right? So I have a scene in the book that's a...

I think very important to understanding not only Biden, but American politics. So a week after the disastrous debate performance, his top aide, Tony Blinken, who's the Secretary of State, who's been so close to Biden, they have lunch and Blinken says,

says to him because Biden's the president, the boss, and Blinken's subordinate does. May we all have a friend like this, frankly, who sits you down and what he says to the president is, what do you want your legacy to be?

Because at this point on July 4th, Biden's still in the race running. And you really want to do this another four years. And then there's a profound moment where Blinken says to Biden, Mr. President, if you run and win,

That's great. Mr. President, if you run and lose, that's the one sentence in history that will define you.

The thing about Biden is that he really does seem to have people around him who are thoughtful, who care about him, who provide emotional support for him. And you contrast that with Trump, who has like Lindsey Graham, the Yenta around and just a bunch of people who are like, you know, it seems like Lindsey Graham, how is he such a prominent figure?

Well, he's the senator from South Carolina who's a real friend of Trump's. At the same time, Lindsey Graham, friend of Trump, is quoted in the book saying that Trump is more erratic these days. And that obviously is true. And that's here's a friend saying that Lindsey Graham is

is a Greek chorus of one. He says all kinds of things that are so interesting. He talks about going to see the Saudi crown prince, MBS.

And they're in there and the Saudi Crown Prince has a bag of burner phones, 50 of them, all labeled a special burner phone for Jake Sullivan, the National Security Advisor. And I mean, it's a very...

funny but real scene where they're just picking up these phones and, you know, who do we want to call? Who's going to call us? That's what I mean by he's a yenta. Why is he meeting with MBS? He's the senator from South Carolina. Why is he meeting? He just seems to always be in places that don't make sense for the senator from South Carolina. So

So just to kind of wrap up our thoughts here, there's so much in the book. I really enjoyed it as I have all of your previous books. It's not too long. Anybody could read it. It's a good weekend read to get you caught up for what we're getting into right now. What's something that you really hope people take away from this particular book?

That what Biden did by not sending American troops to fight in Ukraine, he protected the country. He protected really the national interest. Let's not get involved in foreign wars. And that's because Ukraine

He remembers vividly Vietnam. And back when he was vice president and Obama sent 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan, it was Biden.

who was saying, no, no, don't do it. Again, this idea of American troops abroad to fight in foreign wars is no solution. It takes the country down the road to Vietnam. Biden understands that. And so very interesting question is,

Who else understands that? Does Trump understand that? I've spent hours and hours talking to Trump and doing all these books on him. See, Trump, as I was saying earlier, but this is this is if you want to understand, even if you like Trump, even if you don't like him, he does not have team power.

And he does not have a plan. In your work, you guys have written down the questions you've talked about. You've probably had a session before. Okay, how are we going to handle this interview? What are we going to do? Right? Yes, sir. Of course. That's what...

organizations do. They plan and they have a team. There are two of you. I'll bet you have producers, other people involved in the planning and the teamwork. The failure to have that cripples the national interest of the United States in a very dramatic way. Let's hope not a permanent way. I feel that.

Do you have confidence that we are ready for a President Harris? As I say, going to President school, it's the short course, but she's been Vice President the whole time. And what's interesting about the Vice Presidency under Joe Biden, because he'd been Vice President.

He knew what it was like when he was Obama's vice president, getting elbowed out, not getting invited to the meetings, not being in on discussion and debate. But he has made sure that Harris has had that experience. And as best I can tell, that's the case. She makes her own position clear, like what

That press conference after Netanyahu, you know, she made it very clear, didn't like what's going on. And of course, he was furious. Did we learn that in public? No. Just one more quick question. In retrospect, how do you think history will judge Obama as a foreign policy president? Because looking back at this, I couldn't help but think,

Maybe there were some mistakes, not just with Ukraine and Putin, but, you know, looking at the Iran situation. Do you think that he maybe underestimated some of our adversaries? Well, you know, you can't tell, and we're going to see how this plays out. I mean, I did two books on President Obama, one about Obama's wars when he was managing Ukraine,

the wars while he was president. And he's, as we know, he has a very strong, decent streak. And whether he was tough enough, in one of my books I write that he really at times did not understand how to work his will.

And being president, you have to say, this is the will, this is the policy, this is the port to which we are sailing, and think it out step by step, strategically, with the team. And this is...

the big problem with Trump. With Trump, whatever you might think of Trump, he brings with him no team, no organization, no plan. And even if you like what he says and implementing it, I found during, you know, measure a

President by how he or she did as president. And when he was president, his handling of the coronavirus was, as I say, a moral failure.

And if he had just listened and told the truth in the summer of 2020, after the virus has taken hold of the country, I had my last conversation, phone conversation with Trump. And

I said to him, "Mr. President, 140,000 people have died in your country from this virus that you were warned about." At that point, I'd learned about the earlier warning. "What's your plan?"

Mr. President. And he said, don't worry, don't worry. I'll have a plan in 106 days. A concept of a plan. That was election day. Now, the house is on fire and somebody comes to you and says, you know, I think we should call the fire department. You don't say, well, let's wait 106 days. Right, right.

Mr. Woodward, it is always such a pleasure to get to chat with you. I appreciate so much you giving us the time. I know you're a busy guy. You're probably already working on your next book and we'll look forward to what secrets and treasures are in that one. Thank you again for spending the time with us today. Good seeing you all. Best of luck. Thank you. Thank you.

Oh, my God. Sammy, what a great conversation. I'm so grateful that the iconic Bob Woodward gave us the time and insight. And I learned so much. And I just feel good. I feel good about this. I do, too. I will admit that I'm a little bit disappointed that the audience does not get to hear the conversation we had just after we logged off where we –

Yeah.

it's more likely that they found something out in 2023 or 2024 about something that happened in 2021. And then they're going back and sort of reconstructing that puzzle. There's so much about this book that's really interesting. Just the bombshells are obviously, they really pull you in. But I think what I find even more interesting is sort of like what goes in between? What explains

you know, when Secretary Austin says something on the world stage and he averts, you know, nuclear disaster, what were all the weeks and months of meetings that went into those statements? And I think that like, especially when you look on like TikTok, people are like, well, why can't they just do blah, blah, blah? There are so many conventions that are followed and procedures. And I think that in a world where Donald Trump

just says whatever the fuck he wants. People don't realize that like not everyone else is living in the world where you can just say and do whatever you want, that there are, there's meaning behind what is and is not said. And,

And that's how foreign relations actually work. It's politics and it's society and it's so much more. And yeah, in many ways, I feel like we live in two different worlds, right? Like the news media doesn't necessarily make us super aware of what's going on with Secretary Austin when he's avoiding nuclear disaster, when he's negotiated like a relationship with the Philippines that we were starting to lose that is now stronger than ever.

Something that I have said and we've talked about a lot is I think and I hope and I think he deserves for history to remember President Biden more kindly than he was treated while he was president. I think when we look back and we have all the pieces and years have been put between sort of the trauma we're experiencing now and the truth.

History will remember President Biden as one of the best presidents that we ever had for the things he had to deal with. And in the book, Bob says, you know, there were failures and mistakes, but I believe President Biden and his team will be largely studied in history as an example of steady and purposeful leadership.

And I agree. I think that is absolutely the case. Like I said, there's something very old school. And this is always what has appealed to me about President Biden is that there is something very old school and steady about him. And that's actually what I see in Kamala Harris as what what makes me have faith in her without knowing all of the necessarily all the specifics of everything she necessarily, quote unquote, believes.

My sense is that she is – she and he share that sense of doing what's right. Again, like that walk softly, speak softly, and carry a big cigar with the fucking phrases. It's like this – what Secretary of Defense Austin did. It's like he doesn't need to have a lot of bluster because he has the full US military at his behest. And it's like if Donald Trump could get that through his head –

And not need to like say shit. Yep. He could also have been successful because you know what Bob Woodward said about Obama is that he didn't know how to work his will. Donald Trump is someone who knows how to work his will. Yeah. His will is just stupid. Yeah.

His will is insane. That's the problem. That's actually the issue. But yeah, there's so much there. I agree. President Biden is, you know, everyone makes mistakes. I also think he's one of the most challenged presidents, not just in terms of what he experienced, COVID, the COVID economy. Afghanistan pullout, everything. The Afghanistan pullout that was, the deadline was arranged by the Trump administration. But-

and dealing with his son. You know, that would be defining for a president to just have to deal with that. And this is a man who was...

deeply challenged. It's like that phrase, you know, God gives his hardest challenges to his strongest soldiers. And I think that is President Biden. I agree. In the book, you will, if you have children or siblings or really just know anybody, you'll like the part where they talk about him having a diplomatic meeting and Hunter just like rolling up, pulling up a chair and being like, dad, the midterms are going to be really important to me. It's like,

That was with his friend. That was with his friend. But he describes President Biden just leaning back in his chair and closing his eyes like, okay, Hunter. Okay. I could picture that so clearly because I can see my grandfather doing that with my dad. It's like, I know exactly what he was dealing with. And I'm like, I also understand. My grandfather had that old school way, which is why I can see this in President Biden. It's like,

where they know that that person is just going to keep causing issues for them. And yet they don't reply with like force. Nope. They love them. And they're like, you know what? Okay. All right, son. You know, let's, you know, and we forget sometimes that president Biden experienced great trauma. His wife and his daughter were killed in a car accident that Hunter and Bo were in the backseat of that vehicle for. And so the way that he has carried his son through,

Through that trauma. And he lost Beau. And he lost Beau. And, you know, losing a child, there's nothing like it in the world. And so the way he clings to Hunter and makes space for him and loves him unconditionally is not something that I think we see exemplified in the first American family very often. Chelsea Clinton didn't really give Bill a whole lot to worry about. She knew her role. And, you know, you have Hunter didn't ask for any of this. Bill created his own problems.

I know. Bill, he sure did. So I think it's an interesting book. I, of course, really appreciate Bob giving us the time. And that's going to be it for us. So I think that's one of our biggest interviews on the show. That was...

That was exciting. I'm hyped about it. I know. You know, it makes me want to interview President Biden, not about like the issues, but about himself as a leader. How great of a sit down would that be? He's a good person. I mean, you know, I've had time with him in the past. And I think when he's being Joe Biden, he's...

you know, the best guy around. You can like him or not for his presidency, but you can't deny his humanity and the fact that I believe he genuinely takes the time to see people and wants them to feel important. And that's really cool. So until next time, I'm Vita Speer. I'm Sammy Sage. And this has been American Fever Dream.

American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatzik. Social media by Candice Monega and Bridget Schwartz. Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Betches News and follow me, Sammy Sage at Sammy and V at Under the Desk News. And of course, send us your emails to AmericanFeverDream at Betches.com.