How To Talk About Abortion ft. Kate Cox & Amanda Zurawski
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bit.ly slash book club IRL for tickets. Grab yours before they sell out. Rise and shine, fever dreamers. Look alive, my friends. I'm Bea Spear. I'm Sammy Sage. And this is American Fever Dream presented by Betches News, where we explore the absurdities and oddities of our uniquely American experience. Today on the show, we have Kate Cox and Amanda Zyrowski. They are the two women you most recognize for their advocacy following a denial of reproductive health care that they needed in Texas.

Amanda and her husband, Josh, spoke from the stage of the DNC about the fears they experienced as Amanda went septic while miscarrying their very wanted child, a baby girl who they planned to name Willow. Amanda was not able to get an abortion due to the fetal heartbeat laws in Texas that say any electric activity means no abortion, even if that fetus is totally non-viable. She was forced to wait three days for a medical intervention, all the while becoming more and more deathly ill. The lack of care cost her her ability to ever conceive again.

Also today, we have Kate Cox, who was pregnant with her third very wanted child when she and her husband found the fetus had severe developmental abnormalities that would have resulted in death of the fetus either later in the pregnancy or shortly after birth. If that pregnancy had been brought to term, Kate also risked losing her future fertility and the potential that the fetus would experience great pain from the unviable development.

She chose to leave the state of Texas to receive an abortion, a task that had her worried that her husband would be jailed for aiding and abetting an abortion. They have become such amazing advocates for abortion rights after they were part of a lawsuit in Texas to try to get them to define more specifically what counts as exceptions for the health and life of the mother. So welcome, Kate and Amanda. We are very excited to get into this conversation with you. Thank you. Thanks for having me here.

Thanks so much for having us. We are thrilled to have you here, especially because you are so busy right now. You are on the Ride to Decide bus tour. So tell us, what are you seeing, positive, negative? Is there anything you want people to know about trends that are on the horizon? What messages you're finding most effective?

Yeah. So we've been out on the road on the Ride to Decide bus tour, and it's been really great. We're just spreading awareness about what's going on in

in states like Texas, where there are near total abortion bans and just helping people understand that if we don't elect pro-choice candidates in November, this could be an issue in more states. It could be a national issue if Trump is reelected. And what I'm seeing is it's really galvanizing people and people are

feeling really motivated and really mobilized on this issue in particular. I've met a number of people who have voted differently specifically on this issue. They voted for Democrats. And I've also met a number of folks who weren't planning on voting at all until they heard stories like mine and Kate's and they're registered and they're planning to vote. So it's, you know, it's hard and we're really busy, but it's making a big difference. I think people are really moved.

Absolutely. The Ride to Decide bus tour has covered nearly 6,000 miles across the United States. And I think what's really powerful is hearing other storytellers. So you've heard my story, Amanda's, but I'm just one person. We're one family. What we hear so often is your story is my story that I went through how I've

I mean, I've personally seen the devastation that's been caused by these extreme abortion bans to not just women, but families, people all across the United States. And so I think people are speaking out and those are really powerful stories and it's changing hearts and minds. Is there any different stories?

Does the experience differ between the states that you visit, between the towns that you visit? And what have you, I guess, learned from some of those differences? And are there any like everywhere commonalities? Yes and no. I think the everywhere commonalities are that people are pissed off about these bans and they're doing something about it. They're fighting back. In every state, we see people standing up and fighting back in their own communities.

I do think there's a difference, though, between states that have bans and states that feel, quote unquote, safe because abortion is protected. And folks who live in states where they can still access abortion care don't seem to understand how bad it really is and how bleak it is to live in a state like Texas, where if things go sideways, you literally can't get care and you might die. And so that's been really eye opening for me because

even though we are, I think, really moving the needle and changing the conversation, there's still a lot of work to do. And that's what motivates me to keep going is, you know, people need to hear these stories still.

Yeah, I think the commonality is that the majority of Americans want reasonable policies and the government out of their business. What we've seen is, as Amanda said as well, I've seen stories and I've heard stories after what our family went through. We received letters and messages from women all over the United States saying,

and sharing their stories. And what we see is how different those stories looked depending on the state that they live in. So I've heard from a woman who lived in a state where abortion care is protected and her and I had very similar complicated pregnancies, fatal-fetal anomalies around the exact same time and our stories look

very different. She was able to go through privately with her husband and doctor, make decisions, get the care she needed, while I had to fight in a court. But I think what's important is that there's states now that feel safe, but this is such an important election. I mean, that can change if there's a national ban. You guys are getting asked about your personal experiences with women who were going through these, but something that really struck me about

the DNC speeches in particular was that your husbands oftentimes are often, you know, with you and talking about their experiences as men in this situation. And my guy friends are finding it difficult for how they're going to talk about it. So we're going to shout out Pat, Pat, Chuck, Polly, and Sid, who have all asked me like,

Hey, I don't like this abortion stuff either. I'm really afraid. We live in New York, so we're okay, right? And I'm like, yeah, we're okay, but that doesn't help everybody else. And if there's a national abortion ban, it would certainly affect us here. Do you have any advice you can give us from your husbands about how men can be approaching this topic because they feel –

My experience with them is that they're super awkward. They are not sure if they're supposed to talk about it. And at the same time, they feel really vulnerable and helpless and

to be a part of the solution here? Anything that Josh and Justin can give us? Yeah, I'll share first. So my husband and I, we went through this together. And when he's asked about how he was impacted by the extreme abortion bans in Texas, the two words that he shares is anger and betrayal. He doesn't want to watch his wife, his loved ones go through what we went through. And so I think

sharing about those stories and what they've seen has been very impactful. Amanda's husband, Josh, did a fantastic job at the DNC. This is not a women's issue. This is an everybody issue. Amanda, specifically,

Have you seen your husband engage with other men? What's a good conversation starter for men to get into this space and start talking about it because we need their vote as well. I think that's a great call out. And my husband, Josh has really started to amp up his advocacy and his, you know, and I think what he's finding to be most successful, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but, um,

we know that personal stories are what moves the needle, whether it's for men or women or whatever other box you check. I think it's the personal stories that are really going to drive home this message. And when you hear it from someone like Josh,

That not only did I get this devastating news that I was going to lose my child, but also I almost lost my wife in the process. I mean, those stories are hard to refute. And I think, you know, Josh is being pretty outspoken on a pretty big stage through our activism and through the campaign. But I think men can really have these conversations in their own...

living rooms, in their own dens on the commercial break while they're watching the Cowboys, right? These are conversations that they can have in their own personal communities. And I think it's making it personal, whether it's your own story or someone you know, or when you heard on the news, I think that's what's going to be what's going to change people's hearts and minds and hopefully their votes. So just bring it up. I mean, that's what I'm hearing is like, even when I just bring it up, it's amazing how many men are like,

Yeah, nobody ever asked me about that, but I've had a lot of thoughts about it and I didn't know what to do with it. And so just bring it up. Well, and I think that's a really good point too, is I think men, a lot of men are struggling with talking about it because they feel like they need permission because they have for so long been told that this isn't their issue. And so they're hesitant to jump in the fight because they don't want to be alienated if they say the wrong thing.

I mean, I can understand that fear, but this fight is going to take all of us. And I think the more men speak about it, the more additional men will feel like, okay, I have the permission to talk about this. I can talk about this. This isn't about families, not just women.

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As a white woman of privilege from New York State, where I know a lot of people who are deeply convinced that they will never not be able to get access to an abortion, let alone a DNC if they needed one as an emergency. What do you say to people who just don't believe that it's going to happen to them or that it could happen to them to the point where they are still willing to overlook the

this as their kind of primary issue. Are there points or messages that have worked to get this across other than just your stories? Well, you know, in my story, I never thought that I would be in the situation that I was in. You know, I never thought that I would want or need abortion care for one. And then I never thought that when I did need it, that I wouldn't be able to access. I mean, you hear exceptions, things like that. What I learned from my case is in reality, it's

exceptions don't work. And so you think it won't happen to you, won't happen to someone you love until it does. Yeah, I think that's right. I think unfortunately the term abortion has been so stigmatized and so politicized that people don't see how it can affect them. But Kate and I are living examples of

of folks who don't fit the narrative, right? We don't fit in the box that they wanted to put abortion seekers in. And so I think it's continuing to talk about not just our stories, but stories of women and families like us who've been through this, who same thing, thought this could never happen to me. I think it also requires an additional step with a lot of people of education. I think people don't understand how these bans came to be and it's tracing it back

Well, this can happen because states like Texas and other states across the South have the power to make these bans in their own state legislature. And that's a result of the overturning of Roe v. Wade, which is a result of three Supreme Court justices that Donald Trump appoints.

appointed and connecting those dots for people, even though it can be laborious, once you connect them, then people are like, oh, and then they see how quickly it can be an issue in their own home states. There needs to be some education around how pregnancy is not a health neutral event in the first place and that it has a lot of inherent risks and

And there are, you know, I don't think people necessarily of all ages or childbearing status understand that an abortion is actually a routine healthcare procedure.

When you were going through this and you're in intensive care and you're knowing it's due to these abortion bans, were you thinking about what you would do if you were okay, that you were going to try to fight this in a bigger way? Were you angry at that point or did that come later? At what point were you like, okay, I'm going to turn this into, I have to do something about this beyond me?

I was actually still in the hospital when Josh and I were talking about it and we were like, this is absolutely insane. And, you know, again, we talk about privilege. I am the best case scenario here because of all of the privileges that I am afforded in life. And we just got to thinking about all the people that don't have those same opportunities and privileges. And so, you know, we decided that we were going to do something right away. We had no idea what that would look like. Certainly did not expect to be where we are today, but just,

you know, started talking to folks and got connected. And the more we spoke out, the more it picked up steam. And, you know, we've just been really grateful to have a lot of opportunities to help educate and advocate.

To Justin and I, you know, it felt so senseless. It didn't make any sense. I mean, we were parents of two. My children need me. We desperately want to be parents to more children. And we were, I was in the hospital multiple times in emergency rooms. This baby was never going to survive. We didn't want her to suffer. I mean, it just was so frustrating. I mean,

the hardest decision I've ever had to make, and it wasn't mine to make. You know, we're telling people that they can use their power by telling their story, right? But sometimes when your story comes out of a tragedy, you don't have like the skills up front and everybody's looking at you and being like, what do we do? Tell me what to do and like tell your story and be so raw and exposed. How do you prepare yourself? Like, what do you wish you could tell, you know, two weeks before the tragedy you about what your life would become and how to,

Keep certain things private or not or structure yourself so that you could maintain your own self insanity through this process of becoming, you know, the standard bearer for the for the issues with abortion bans.

For me, the biggest thing has been, you know, you're not alone. And for me, something beautiful that's come out of our tragedy is kind of a sisterhood, a community of not just other women, husbands, people that have been impacted by these devastated. You know, I have a community now because of

We did have to share our story publicly. And so, you know, you're not alone. There's so many that are so many families being devastated by these extreme abortion bans across the U.S. We talk about this a lot, that it's a club that nobody wants to join. But once you're in it, it's it's really beautiful.

As you're on this tour, what's the, I guess, split of like newly engaged voters or people who are sort of newly stepping into advocacy in some way versus people who are seasoned and pretty much aware of, been aware of this for a long time? My just observations, I would say it's a pretty even split.

There are folks who've been doing this work for decades. And I think for them, what this is doing is helping to rejuvenate them and injects maybe a little bit of fresh energy. But then you also have that generation bringing the younger generation that's just getting involved for the first time. And for me, that's really cool to see sort of this passing of the torch. I mean, again, it's not a torch we want to exist. We don't want to be passing it, but it's cool to see that there are layers of

of this work in that, you know, we've got a pretty deep bench. So we're in it for the long haul. We're seeing the now devastation that's come from the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And we're seeing stories and we're seeing people coming forward. I think we're going to continue to see that. And really, I think that's going to be a big issue that people are coming out to vote on. So I think people maybe who haven't voted in the past will come out to vote for reproductive rights because they don't want to see people continue to be hurt by these extreme bans.

So let's say it's election night and we're counting the votes and everything's going good. What does success look like for you guys? Like, what do you want to feel like on that day? What will that be like? Wow.

We'll be popping champagne and banging lots of hands in the street. No, this is actually a really critical point. I think everybody should be prepared for a very long night, election night and days after, right? Like we're going to have to count. We're probably going to have to certify. We're going to have to do all these things. So I think we need to be prepared for that. The other thing I think we need to be prepared for is when we win in November, they're still going to dig in and they're still going to try to

work the system in a way that they can still get these things across the line, even when Kamala Harris is president. They're still going to try to manipulate the system. And so I think people need to stay vigilant. I think they will because we see how motivated people are by this. But I think we

I don't want to be a Debbie Downer. I think on the other hand, we'll all be able to breathe a little bit of a sigh of relief, knowing that the very next day, there's not somebody who's going to institute a national abortion ban, because that's what Trump will do. And I think we'll be able to sleep a little easier, but we have to, we have to stay vigilant.

Yeah, I would say our work is not over after Election Day. I think there'll be a lot of hope and a lot of momentum, but we have to keep fighting. We have to keep speaking out until people across the U.S. have access to the health care that they need, because it's not fair. It's not right what's happening today.

And fellas, it's healthcare for you too and lesbians and everyone else. I never thought I would know this much or be this interested in reproductive healthcare until now when it's like, wow, this one thing leads to the other, right? Because now it's abortion. Then what's it going to be? Hormones. Then what's it going to be? Preventative. Then what's it going to be? Contraceptives. Like it's a house of cards that nobody wants to fall.

Well, and the people who think that, you know, these reproductive issues maybe didn't apply to them in the past, or they didn't think that they'd be thinking about it this much, like you're saying, I think what people need to take a step back and look at is, if this is a party that's willing to take away human rights from one group of people, who's to say that they're not going to take away human rights from other groups of people. And that's a whole other house of cards that, you know, we don't want to see that domino effect either. Yeah.

They will do that. I will admit when I was – my mom took me to vote when I was really a baby and she would say, you always vote Democrat but you have to check that they don't have right to life under their name because that means they're anti-abortion. And she was always like, we vote because of the right to an abortion.

And I was like, they'll never overturn Roe versus Wade. What are you talking about? My vote doesn't matter. I live in New York. And it was so ignorant and wrong of me. And I think taking people on that journey is how you increase their engagement and their awareness of how precarious our rights actually are.

And our nation has a lot to learn about abortion care. I've certainly learned a lot through my journey and wanted, prayed for pregnancies, sometimes ended in abortion. Abortion care is health care for ectopic pregnancies. I mean, there's just so much that our nation has to learn about abortion care.

And I think people, what sometimes they don't realize is how strict the punishment is for doctors. For example, in Texas, doctors that provide abortion care can face up to 99 years in prison, hundreds of thousands fines, loss of their medical license.

So what's hard is your doctors are scared. I trust my doctors. I have fantastic doctors who have seen me through complications and pregnancies in the past, have always kept me safe. I think the world of my doctors, but their hands were tied.

You know, they're scared to spend their life in prison and the law is unclear. So what are the exceptions and who gets to decide? The politician that wrote the law, the arresting officer? I mean, it's just what our doctors are facing in this state.

Eight is scary. And, you know, I put myself in their shoes. If I was a doctor, you know, it's why you see some that leave the state because it's hard to practice health care in a state like Texas and states with extreme abortion bans where they face criminal penalties. Were you worried about your husband's being arrested for aiding and abetting?

I was very worried about what my husband could face for aiding and abetting abortion if he drove me to the hospital, traveled with me. So, yeah, it's terrifying. The bans in Texas allow for kind of a vigilante justice where he can be sued.

By any random person. I'm pregnant today. I'm six months pregnant. But I live in a state where if I had emergency in my pregnancy, my first call would be my lawyer. My second call would be my doctor.

Was it scary to decide to try again? Yes, it's very scary. And it's still, you know, I'll tear up. It's still scary today. You know, being a mom for me is the greatest joy of my life. And I'm so excited now for the opportunity to bring a baby home, an opportunity I would not have had if I

hadn't found a way to access abortion care, which I should have been able to access in my home state. But yes, it's a scary time to wonder if you have an emergency, if you'll have access to care, if you'll be turned away from a hospital.

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Do you ever worry about them retroactively trying to arrest you as an example or something for the fact that they know that you had to leave the state to have this procedure? You know, I don't know. It's a scary time, of course, thoughts like that cross my mind. But, you know, it's when you've been through something like this, when you've seen the horrors that others have been through, you keep fighting, you keep speaking out, you keep sharing your story because it's

it's senseless. You know, I, I believe I qualified for the exception. I should have qualified. Doctors are scared. They don't want to spend their life in prison. And Amanda, on your side, did you feel that same thing where like your doctors were maybe afraid to give you the help that you needed in such a difficult time? Oh, absolutely. So for me, from a timing perspective, the ban in Texas went into place the exact same week that my water broke prematurely. And I,

So it was not just fear, but it was also just confusion because and that confusion is still there today, two years later, because the way the laws are written, it is meant to confuse and muddy the waters so that doctors don't know what they can do. So they so they don't provide the care that they should be able to provide, you know, even with all of the.

trauma and grief that I was experiencing, I still carry a lot of the grief that my health care team was carrying because for three days they had to deny me care. And just like Kate, I'm very close with my doctor and we have a great relationship. And I could see over and over again just the pain on their faces because

that they couldn't do what they're trained to do, what they want to do. You know, doctors take an oath first to do no harm and the law is forcing them to cause harm. And it's just unfathomable. It's terrible. And the lawsuit that you brought against the state was specifically to seek clarification on those exceptions. And they did, the court basically refused to clarify and said that it was clear enough.

So clearly not, but so doctors are, so, so doctors are not really in any better position today than they were back then either. Nope. It has not gotten any better. It's actually probably gotten worse.

Not in the great state of Texas. Texas deserves so much better than this. And I think what we're seeing is the work that you and so many others are doing on different topics across the board, but certainly leading with abortion, are making some changes, at least for the people who refuse to do their job, might not have that job anymore. Just this morning, there was a poll that came out that shows Colin Allred is a point ahead of Ted Cruz for the very first time. It looks like Ted Cruz, very likely, if people keep this energy up, could not

be in between a woman and her doctor anymore after this election, which I mean, I could think of nothing better than that. Yep. Yeah, we're ready to permanently send Ted Cruz to Cancun. Yeah, we're really pulling for Colin Allred. Colin Allred has my support. Also, just, you know, what a wonderful man. I've been able to meet him and speak with him, his wife and his team. And so, so grateful for the work that they're doing and excited to vote him in in November.

And Texas voters, check your registrations because they have been purging many people from the voter rolls. So make sure to check, keep checking, and re-register if you need to. And it's not just about abortion, right? I mean, you guys are advocating for IVF access and just common sense reproductive health that remains between two partners and their doctor and doesn't involve anybody else in their business of bringing life into this world. Amanda, what do you think about the IVF stuff?

Well, so now as a result of what I went through, I actually, I haven't drawn this line. I don't think before for people, but Kate and I are two starkly different versions of the story. She was able to get an abortion. She had to leave to get it. And now she's pregnant because she was able to get the abortion that she needed. I was denied an abortion, never got the one I needed and I can't get pregnant again. So my husband and I are forced now to turn to IVF and surrogacy. And so I'm

When we see states like Alabama issuing these rulings from that state Supreme Court that halts IVF instantly. Again, this is all a result of the fall of Roe and these decisions being turned back over to the states. And frankly, it's terrifying. I...

I don't want politicians in my doctor's office. I don't want them in my decisions on how or if or when I build a family. It's none of their business and they need to stay out of it. I agree. She just wants kids, guys. This is not that hard. Give the woman some access to IVF and surrogacy and all the help she needs for all the wrong that you did to her. I mean, and that's what this bus tour is about, right? It's about being on the side of women and making it...

more just, more right, and hopefully easier for folks to bring life into this world. Isn't that what they want? And less creepy. And less creepy. The same way that they've been able to veil themselves in this pro-life language, like we are here for the babies. We don't want to kill any babies. I actually think that what needs to happen and probably will happen increasingly if we

Kamala Harris is not elected, is that there does need to be a reversal in the messaging that actually this is what's killing people because it is. And the idea of abortion being something that is mostly used to just end pregnancies that were, quote unquote, accidents is really not what is happening here. But they also want to come for birth control. Yeah. Yeah.

We'll see. My wish for the world would be that anyone who wants to experience being a parent has that opportunity. And contraception, IVF, abortion care is often part of that journey. The journey to parenthood is not easy for many. And I would say, you know, Amanda and I are forever bonded what we went through. You know, I'll share that the day that the Zyrowski versus Texas case was at the Texas Supreme Court for Oral Arguments,

was the day I received the devastating diagnosis in my pregnancy. And so I'm receiving the most devastating news of my life. And I'm watching what Amanda was put through and her story. And, you know, I was terrified seeing what these women, you know, were put through. And so, you know, Amanda, thank you for your bravery and for, you know, sharing your story and for the work that you continue to do.

I've heard Kate say that before, and it makes me tear up every single time. And I just want to call out your bravery, Kate. I mean, you were pregnant when you filed suit. And, you know, kind of what I alluded to earlier, I didn't really know what I was getting myself into just because I was one of the very first. Kate knew full on what she was diving into, and she did it anyway. And that is...

superhero status, in my opinion. At the end of the day, I fought for my health care, what I needed in that moment to be able to preserve my fertility. But I want to also say thank you to the Ride to Decide group for what they do, because they are the ones, boots on the ground every day, doing this work and helping women across America access what they need. Exactly right.

What do you want your kids or your future children to learn from what you've done these past two years?

My kiddos are little, you know, right now their biggest concern is what they're taking for show and tell. But one day, you know, I think about them a lot when I do this. I hope they never have a tragedy like we had, but if they did, I hope that they would have choices. And what I would love for them to take away is that if something's wrong, you can stand up against it.

Yeah, I hope to have kids someday. In the meantime, I have six nieces and nephews and I think about them a lot and talk to them a lot about this because they are old enough to talk about it. And I think what I want them to know and take away from all of this is that

Even if something terrible happens to you, that doesn't have to be your whole story. You can take control of your own story. And one voice can be so, so powerful. And I think that's true for everyone, not just kids to understand, but one voice can really, really just be so powerful. And so I hope anybody listening and thinking about this understands that. And the importance to vote. It's

It's all of our, you know, I think it's so important to vote for what you believe in, vote in every election. And so, you know, I will encourage my children as soon as they're old enough to vote for what they believe in. Well, thank you so much for being here with us, for sharing your story, for sharing your husband's story and your family's story. Kate, congratulations on your pregnancy. We look forward to hopefully a New Year's Eve, baby. I mean, it will

Why not kick 2025 off with Kate Cox's baby and a Kamala Harris presidency? I can't think of truly nothing better to turn this country around. We appreciate you all so much. Thank you again for being here. Thank you so much for having us. American Fever Dream is produced and edited by Samantha Gatzik. Social media by Candice Monega and Bridget Schwartz.

Be sure to follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Betches News and follow me, Sammy Sage at Sammy and V at Under the Desk News. And of course, send us your emails to AmericanFeverDream at Betches.com.