The confusing state of Apple Intelligence
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Hello, and welcome the verge chest, the flagship podcast, jelly y's growing. We're sorry, it's still there are right user eyes and friendly. David pierce is here.

Hi, I hate that. I know what jelly schooling is.

You a lot of trouble this week.

but I did and then I was immediately vindicated. And it's been it's been a fun week. I would like to i'm excited to suck that come back to the .

Richard lawler is here.

hello. I am somehow unaware of the massive jelly scrolling scandal.

Richard doesn't jelly score. That's one important thing to know about Richard.

How do you know Richard doesn't attention to stakes free apple drama? He doesn't know about jellyby scrolling? Welcome back, Richard. But I want find favorite Richard dollar.

my people, they they made the request, and we can do, there will be crypto in all of your wallets.

Rachel will give you a bit coin if you vote for the verge cast.

It's quantum luck. So it's already there and it's coming all at the same time. It's yeah it's a thing.

Uh, I believe that was Richard who today pointed out starbucks is fAiling and some other companies fAiling. And these nike, starbucks and nike, tell your theory, say your theory about starbucks and nike.

Starbucks and nike, they were both out there just promoting in if there were lots of companies and lots of brands doing N F T things a few years ago that now have are acting like they didn't, but they were out there and they and then we're doing a bit. They were really, really pushing IT. And I don't think that they are going down now that they have the structure of having because they need enough. But I think that if you look at the companies that were really into IT, where the executives and looked in of tea and didn't immediately say that is nothing and move on, that they had something wrong in their board room, that their executives, they they on't focused on what was going on and what their customers really wanted.

The nf aren't aren't the cause, but there there are a symptom of the problem that is causing all .

these other problems. In the problem is you have no idea what you make or sell and think.

and nothing functional. F T shoes are the yeah should make .

good coffee, or the idea of coffee that we will sell.

Experiences behind digital tokens.

Hey, hey, hey, knox, selling experiences behind digital tokens. What is a podcast in our R S. Feet, except an experience behind IT, but deeply functional digital token.

But never mind, there's a lot soccer this week, quite a lot socket. There's David reviewed in ipad mini. I would say that if someone who edited that review felt like a hostage situation for David will talk about that.

There is a bunch of other apple news. I O S, eighteen point one is coming out next week with apple intelligence, which means apple is already started seating IOS eighteen point two, which has the actual features in IT. Very confusing.

What work through all of that? Then there's a week of mac announcements to come. Greg jozwiak is posting at that right now.

There's a bunch of AI news is always including some deeply funny human news. And then we had a lighting round, right? But let's start with the drama.

Like every now again, the verge gets self mixed up in a unch of a high stakes drama. Journalism, ethics. What are we doing here? And we did that this week.

And then David also pissed off a bunch of people by in the ipad. So the ipad, when I came out, they updated the chip IT support temple of intelligence at gigs. RAM, David, you reviewed IT you were disappointed. There's no other way to put this.

No, that's that's right. Disappointed is fair. So I I have been an ipad many person forever. I think i've owned two different generations. I bought my wife and my dad. I had minutes over the years like, I this thing is awesome and I love IT and believe in IT and have used that many times or many for many years.

A apple shipped this one and like, I don't know how else to frame IT accept IT did the literal least IT possibly could in a way that felt brude like this was not a case of of just sort of chip upgrades that make the thing not necessarily brand new, but like commentate with the times apple gave this a worse of last year's p and changed nothing else and and you're supposed to be like, oh, thank god, a new ipad mini. And the thing that apple knows, and Nathan, that were to work with me on this ece, a lot, the thing he kept pointing out is like apple knows that if you want an ipad mini, you're going to buy an ipad mini because it's the ipad mini and you want ipad mini. And that is how apple has you, is IT is the most like self selecting device, apple mix.

And so why would apple try if IT doesn't have to try? It's just onna do the absolute literal bare minimum and just here you go do you do you want IT? You're gna have IT, if not like and and so I just got this point like this thing is it's not that it's not good.

It's just that it's not nearly as good as IT could be an apple only had to try a tiny bit to make IT way Better and I just didn't. And the thing I wrote was like this feels like an ipad designed by a supply chain, not by a designer. It's just true.

I cannot shake that feeling. And so IT is both a good tablet in a deeply disappointing one, which is a very strange. It's a thing we deal with a lot with the ipad honestly and Frankly is like we want the ipad to be more than IT is.

But what IT is is very good for what IT is in a lot of ways. And so we felt this tension more and more. And I feel like, but this one is just tipped the other way for me.

I like this is just not is just not a goodbye. Lots of people are going to buy IT. Lots of people are going to like IT, but IT is not good yeah it's because .

you know the old one will be around on sale for quite some like in true apple fashion. You'll really get the old one for a minute right on on some discount yeah and .

the only meaningful differences is IT doesn't run apple intelligence. And like, is that are meaningful difference to anyone and will IT be anytime soon.

specially because the ipad mini in particular is a secondary ary device like almost definitely ally. You have another thing, if you have an ipad money, right? Like the ipad maybe can replace your laptop and maybe you want apple intelligence there. I'm struggling to make the kate, but you know, maybe you do. There's no one who's like, I need my notifications on my ipad mini summer.

right? My travel laptop is my ipad mini is not a sentenced people say, yeah, IT is not and so it's like, yeah, all this stuff that apple does not helpme write, this email is not an ipad mini thing. They're like, really good theory might someday be.

But but again, like you have your phone, I don't think anyone should buy any apple product on the basis of apple intelligence right now. And the ipad mini might be the one that needs at the least at this moment. And so yeah, I just got to this point or like I if unless your ipad mini is broken and you are desperate for a new ipad mini, there is no reason this thing is compelling. Uh, and IT turns out a lot of people disagree with me about that or what is actually true. There are a lot of ipad mini people out there.

So so what's the case? And I guess my question is what problem with this one using the a seventeen processor from the iphone and not the info? The other tablets and the laptop use a .

seventeen pro from the iphone fifteen pro, but IT appears to be the like the bind version.

right? So IT benchMarks slightly below the um iphone 4 pro and IT also has won fewer GPU core， which in both cases suggest that is basically a chip that came off the manufacturing line for whatever reason, not up to full capacity. And that like a Normal thing, a lot of companies do this right, like when they sell you, uh uh middle range processor.

Often IT is a uh a sort of imperfectly manufacturer version of a Better processor. Like that's a superNormal thing. People do IT, it's fine, but it's just like this.

This brand new product is giving you a worse version of last year's ship in a time when apple is like a telling you that you need all the performance you can possibly get in order run. Apple intelligence has massively upgraded a bunch of other ipads. There is just no way to look at this other than IT got .

the worst of the worst like literally the parts in yeah like it's a shop with A I go exactly.

The pony eck ipad is just fun.

yes. So we should talk with the juice roling because I think that people understand the ipad mini got a chip bump and nothing is very compelling. And that's and the ipad mini has effectively no competition. There's not something like eight and SAndra tablet that's crushing IT right in. The ipad mini has, for whatever it's worth, the ipad apple library, which doesn't exist on the android.

correct. Also, pilots use IT. I know if you need that. The pilots are out of control. Uh, the pilots and apparently there are like hundreds of millions .

of pilots out there flying plans directly to apple stores and landing, right? I miss you. You going to you and .

go outside of the fifth avenue and storms of people it's just a bunch of tiny plans blinding fifty seven get to right.

right. And like michigan in the pontoons swimming up to the apple support uh, okay. Uh, don't do that if you're listening to this and you're like, I should fly my flow plane chicago apples. I've just encouraging you .

not to do if you do, send us a video because we will put IT on our website.

That's the opposite of not showing the person running onto .

the field during a football opposite incentive.

right? So there's whatever this is spect prom. The thing that got people really lit up is not you dare to criticize an apple product.

It's that the screen on the ipad mini is an notorious for jelli scrolling, yes, which is when you scroll, one side of the screen moves faster than the other, which warps everything on the screen. This is one of the things some people can see that and some people can't. But unlike hundred twenty years to refresh, like once you see that you're done, your it's never it's like motion smoothing. And so you can ruin someone's life by pointing this out.

And do you know who ruined my life? Dear bone, thank you, dear. With his twenty twenty one review of the ipad mini, uh, in which she's spent a long time talking about, how about the jay's calling is and I think he he either there is somewhere else linked to a test. You can do the test for jewish growing that actually is just basically moves a thing across the screens so you can see IT.

Um and it's a line and the idea is if the line appears to bend IT means the screen is not refreshing in a uniform way uh and once you see IT holy lord can you not only see IT and you you can super see IT on the the twenty twenty one minute so yeah the here are several things that I know I know that jelly scrolling was a big problem on the twenty, twenty, twenty one. Many I know that apple said. In two thousand and twenty one, it's not a real problem.

Don't worry about IT, everything's fine that you you can go back and find that those are statement's apple game that was like that. This is a Normal thing that happens on screens. Don't worry about IT like bad response, but that was the response.

Uh, I also know that apple this year tried to fix that. They change the way that display controller works in order to to a sensibly refresh the screen more uniformly. This one is Better IT.

IT is certainly less jelly than the one mother I said. I mean, I like so our our reviews all in up at nine and at like nine thirty a bunch of like the the apple blogs and stuff do the round up of reviews. And because the jelly y schooling was a tiny, low six, you know, controversy in twenty and twenty one, they all are talking about the jelly is growing.

I was the only reviewer of that early batch that said jellylike growing still existed. And he is a bunch of other like good, smart reviews people whose work that I like, I was like, oh my god, did I get this wrong? So I went upstairs and got, and is twenty twenty one twenty uh, grabs the twenty twenty four minutes SAT here for, I don't know, ninety minutes, just scrolling, scrolling everything I could find up and down.

Do you believe your own eyes .

that's I didn't for like an after and then either our own staff I think it's Chris welch who posted a link and was like everybody else disagrees with daily. You sure you? I like, no, that's one of the most in character.

Chris. Watch things i've ever yeah for sure r yeah .

and it's like typically when I disagree with like that right of A T it's like I should internally really think through life um but I went and looked and like IT is IT is Better than IT was in twenty and twenty one like you can really see it's like the the twenty twenty one screen is like a ship on the ocean. It's a rolling waves as you scroll the new one is Better IT IT is meaningly Better.

It's still yells like and the way I think about IT is like the the easiest one to see for me was, uh, you go to the amazon home page and it's a bunch of weight boxes with like images and tax and seven side and if you score quickly, the right side of the box appears to pull down and then up faster than the left side. So it's just it's just every and then IT catches up and IT, but it's like your you're turning a rectangle into a parallel agreement and then back into a rectangle as you call. And it's not horrible like on the twenty and twenty one when anna has never looked at me and been because this scrolling weird like it's never tell her i'm not going to.

So this is the thing, right? It's like it's not. And even a lot of the reviewers, well, like I didn't really notice IT then and I definitely notice IT now.

And that's a fine N B, I think representative of just about everybody y's experience. But once you see, you can you see IT and IT is there. And the great thing for me was our views ran on tuesday.

The thing started, should I I got twenty four hours of people being like, you're a monster who has an agenda against apple or four jelli scaling or something and then twenty four hours later, a bunch of people who reluctantly were like, I know he's right. There's some jellyfish wing. Some people still don't notice IT, some people see IT, I am absolutely confident is there, but it's also fine, like do not buy .

IT because of the choice of no choice.

IT doesn't make IT Better or worse.

but also you have no choice. If you are pilot, you have no choice. You like this is what, this is what I am now I have to see this parallel gram.

I think if you have the thing strapped to your thy jelly scroll, len is not going to a huge issue. Just thought .

that's a sentence that only makes sense in the context of aviation and almost in no other context. Yeah because you walk about the subway in new york city like jelly y stroling is an issue. Would you like to scroll IT?

It's too big for a pockets. You just kind of wrap IT around your .

side that experience of writing the review that ever been disagrees with and then being fully vindicated by a much later. The longer IT takes a Better IT is i'm just tell you but you at twenty four hours i'm reading they cut vision pro production this week and all just .

yeah so that's .

the ipad mini. You get one scroll away. Let us know what you think if if like motion smoothing, it's the thing you will start to see and then you blame us forever.

That's not our fault if you don't see jelly growling, don't run the test and just believe that i'm wrong, like truly your life will be Better if you just send me a mean message about how i'm wrong and then move on with your life.

Yes, there's nothing worse you can do for yourself than learn how to evaluate screens is really true.

This is why milla has been so ruined. Why am I A craft for that matter, both?

Why are Richardson I trauma on IT for life? Uh, we can look at scents OK. So that's the ipad money. We can set the side, although please continue standing David notes about the word's jellyby throwing. That's very good.

Then there's what's going on with like this next week of announcements to come, which IT seems like apple has very purposefully lined up a bunch of things in a way that I I don't want to say it's confusing. It's just noisy, right? Like there's just a lot of apple noise is coming next week.

There's apple intelligent flashing, there's a week of mac announcements. Eighteen point two is in developer beta. I if you are a casual, I don't know that you would understand what's shipping, what's not what works with what, right? Because there's just going to the a flood of stuff in in particular, eighteen point one is coming to the phone. So now apple intelligence really is here, but then you're going to see a bunch of demos of like geog I, which is not only in the developer data for eight hundred two, which most people can't get, but on a weight list inside the developer data. Can you peel this apart .

from the vid? No um and I honestly I have I think that on purpose, right like every time I watch an ad for the iphone sixteen and it's running apple intelligence, I wanted like throw things at my TV.

It's so discontinuous at this point to sell this up based on look, here's a series feature you can use but anyway so I think just look like run down the list of stuff and Richard, you should tell me what i'm missing because I am pretty, are a missing stuff. A I O S A T in point one is launching for real like out of data and on two people's phones on monday. That's the very first run of apple intelligence and stuff some other like helpme write stuff, some of the message summaries which appear to mostly just be funny for hilarious reasons and not actually useful in anyone s life. Do you see the .

one that ring notifications? And I was summarized as five to ten people are at your door. Easily the best one that's .

very good tty good ah there's one run around that I think is like I think it's it's a joke, but it's like it's a text from somebody. It's like very busy right now semi and not ready for a relationship and it's well don't ah but so eighteen point one is coming but eighteen point two, which as you mentioned, I think it's going to be a much bigger change for some reasons we should get into uh, is in developer data now, which typically means we're somewhere between a few weeks in a couple of months from shipping for real. I don't know if apple has promised when that supposed to be coming of luck at the time line, but it's basically all supposed to happen somewhere between right now and like spring. So do IT out you will.

And but eighteen point two seems like the real I O S A T that this time i'm getting about about how noisy next week is going to be. We don't know what week of mac news is coming. We can guess, right? There's been a lot of weeks.

I think we're going to get m four macbook prows. I think we're going to get this new mac mini. That's a much smaller case that looks like an apple TV that maybe some other max, but like maybe the sign max, the people talking about, I know, but like so there's a week of mac news to come.

So a bunch of apple noise, which is great. I'm actually if they do with apple 的， think you do with thirty two and china. I I think tomorrow just say, Charles, that's great.

So like dead ahead, mac news, there are new max. They look different, at least the case of mac, many more generate some headlines. Then on monday you get IOS eighteen and quite one is here, apple intelligence here.

And then what actually people will have on their phones is almost nothing, right? Like truly almost nothing. Its message summaries a little bit of helping, right? It's a new syria animation that isn't connected to an actual new theory.

weird. Yeah, that's just weird all the way around. yes. But then what people also see if they go to any tech website, including our own, is a bunch coverage of eighteen point two, which is now out, which has the features people want and not just the AI features people want.

Like big features people want, like alternative browsers, that is default. Alternative message client set is default, although browser engines being able to set web apps on the homework reen in the e, like big sweeping changes to L, S, T. And then also the the good apple intelligence features like visual intelligence in gene mogi like things ChatGPT integration, the stuff that people thought would be there from the beginning. So that just feels like a lot of stuff to part side at once.

My ongoing theory about apple intelligence is that the only three features most people will like, think, are cool and get excited about r genoc h, which I actually think it's going to be a big deal. Uh, I think like that might be sticky, but I think a lot of people are going to use IT in the way that like, I don't know this has been yell's experiences, but like tap back image now or like completely Normalized in my life. Like everyone I text with uses the tap backs now, uh, which I think is awesome and like that is the gene mogi is like the next step to that, which I think .

is going to say I desperately .

wh email hand tap acks. Yes, I. Good messaging. U I like bring IT everywhere.

Let me like an email, like, and let them see that I like to the email so I can going to be like. P, I read IT. Please don't follow up again.

You ever like the email?

That's fair. Well, this down an email, you know.

everybody watched to show the bear and then I went to the face when they talk like a chico line cook for like a summer. And yes, I heard the word heard is just a irl topic. That's all IT is and that's all all I want to do with most of my email is just signify her repeat.

Yes, I see what he's said here. I have no further reactions. That's IT not nothing. You are getting nothing else for me.

What is the emotion I for that is, is that the face that's not .

smiling or frowning? It's just the so then.

What's what is true .

emerging more than anyone else in my. Uh, no, I don't think there is one you just need like a check.

That's the one check is good. I use the raise hands emerge for that a lot.

That's a celebration.

No, no, no, that's good. That's what is for .

yeah great hands.

rain hands can be like, oh, thank you or I can just be like, got IT or I can just be like sick I under arrest. It's just it's a sort of new I under arrest it's just acknowledged that all IT is if you think .

raised hands is am so confused a lot of our conversion after rethink a lot of our conversation.

Do you think i'm telling you being arrested every time?

It's a gene mogi tap backs of being arrested are coming to IOS eighteen point too that's sorry .

getting but anyway, so gene mogi is is the first thing I think people are going to care about that is actually like a net new thing. The second one to ChatGPT um which I think IT IT remains to be seen if that actually going to really be baked into IOS in a way that people care about right now. IT seems kind of clunky, but IT is a thing people will like go find and do on purpose. And then the third one is visual intelligence, especially because of the can not control so I I totally greet you that like the first sincere ly new apple intelligence, things are all in its in point to and uh, there are also pretty big complicated things. So I would not be shocked to see this in a death beta longer than some features we've seen from IOS before.

But also the part where eighteen point to everywhere, including united states, what's you set default phone and messaging apps is a big change to I O S, and that's eighteen point two. The part of eighteen point two were the beginnings of different proud ser engines than eu. Huge, like earth shattering change to I O S. Eighteen point two. Richard, what do you know .

about how this is actually going to work? Because i'm skeets ticals of this being actually a big deal .

in terms of the browser changes in the default changes.

Yeah like what does that mean when you do that? Do we know anything?

The way that I am reading IT is that you will actually be able to a different browse. And because we've had so far as people, you can have iphone, right, but is still so far underneath IT just looks a little different. But if you can actually have your own your own browsing engine, you can have a lot more features.

You can enable a lot more things than they are able to right now. Right now, they are limited by what apple wants to do. I think that those are things they will be message as the saying that. But the things that people might notice, I know at least an other us. From gene was excited seeing this announcement about the mail out having categories like gmail has .

had for like there's we .

seen the on device A I scanning. They talked about how that's gonna child thank you thing and I message. I think there are going to be a lot more like kind of small features of things that IT does on the device mall that just haven't been there. And those may be bigger than any of the apple intelligence features right away.

Yeah I think upgrading up simple use yeah that's always Better than news. A new thing, right? Like if you use mail every day and now male has new features will be happy.

I'm just getting at the idea that IOS eighteen point to is gonna fast. Follow each point one when IT is actually full of huge changes yeah to how I O S works. And apple intelligence, the the first real set of apple intelligence features, I just suspect that wants going to be longer in future.

And we're going to talk about AI agents in the second section because there's a bunch of that news. But know the real promise of apple intelligence is a theory that is actually smart and can do things for you. And that is a million years away from what I can tell.

So yes, IT is not IT is not. Here we can say that with great confidence. Uh, but the thing of the defaults that I can't figure out is, uh, I think a the browser thing is very cool in theory.

But uh, Thomas record pointed out this morning that it's been nine months and no one has built the browser. Um so like google and mozilla, like where you at friends build us, build us, the Better rose or prove to us this will actually work. Uh and the second one I really want to know is about messaging apps because I actually think being able to change your fault messaging up on I O S could be like massively, but only if you can do S M S N R C S.

In the U. S. On those things later. What this will mean for a lot of people, especially in the E U, is that when you type a phone number to go to what up right like that, that's a big Victory for all those people.

And I think is like a pretty neat sort of one to one mapping of features that is just that just makes more sense, right like that is instead of having to copy IT and then pass IT, you just tap IT and a lot of what APP. That's great for me personally and for people in the U. S.

The question is, can I S M S from another APP? And i'm assuming the answer is no. And until you can, the default is sort of meaningless. So my my theory is to why apple is willing to do this everywhere, specifically with messaging, is that IT actually isn't gonna do there?

Yeah apple always gives up the ones that it's like, fine yeah right? You want to leave, you can leave. yes.

Do you want to switch to a browser engine that doesn't exist? Or like go use a messaging up. It's worse, knock yourself out.

Uh the brows er one in particular is interesting because you know this far team will be upset that I say this because I say a lot and I always upset. But apple has intentionally limited what safari can do on the phone to keep web apps from competing with b store apps that is real like, yeah, that is in the heart of the department of justice anti trust case against apple.

Evidence of that is presented and every browser maker will tell you we would love to do more things on the on the phone browser and web apps floor like I have in the best top. But there is only safari in apple, carefully calibrated so far exactly the level they need to, to keep everyone away. Until now, the DJ wake up and father was IT.

So things like game streaming, Michael, I wanted to that they try to do that in the web browser. If you were calling, just kind of I couldn't get there like it's not compelling. The apps don't feel like laps.

Safari will just like be like you know about a of memory, shut everything. There's a million things that are a problem there um to the idea that chrome can show up and build what you build a real web abb s inside of chrome or chrome will be more powerful. All of that is great.

But on the reality of its still a mobile phone, it's still has a battery, it's as a limited amount of RAM. It's still often on a solid connection. I think those those things are real, know there is meaningfully real.

And I think for a lot of people are taking a lot of time with IT. And then on top of IT, who do you really want here? You want google to show with crime.

And google and apple are currently in a international regulatory dog fight about how much google pays apple to be the default. And then opening up a new sphere of competition for applications in the astor versus web kit versus blink. Web apps on that seems like google would have to give up negotiating the couple in the future, right in a very real way.

Do you not mean like google, like screw IT? Here's chrome on the iphone. You can run web apps and that that are great. This will disrupt the IOS APP store. IT feels like that is a move that nuclear to forego any amount of future google, apple negotiating, which they need to do because google about to be forced to stop paying apple billions of dollars a year to be the fault search. All very complicated.

It's essentially like a declaration of war if google does that. And and the thing I keep talking about is from the search trial, one of the things that apple was really worried about with google and their deal was that if apple didn't set google as the defauts, google had a bunch of apps on the iphone that were super popular. IT was really worried that google would just start getting people to use the google APP.

And that because IT has such a wild surface, like if google put a banner at the top of youtube in gmail and docks and everything else that they have on the iphone, saying, download google APP and do all of your searching there, IT could do that, like google could engineer scale in that way, unlike almost any other company. And apple was really worried about that happening if they took google out of the default position in this is the, this is the inverse of that, right? What google could say is now you can run full featured chrome web apps, which have become very powerful in the last few years, uh, as progressive web apps on your phone like google IT, could essentially like undo the whole APP store model under this new system.

And if in a purely competitive world, that is obviously what google would try to do, right? I don't download action. The apps are to give up thirty percent, just install the APP running on blinkin chromium because now you can on your iphone. And that would that would put these two companies that like incredible odds with each other. But is also, if there weren't many billions of dollars between the two of them.

exactly what you will would do. And that is the heart of the the j in totally inside of that case that the thing that that lost you claims and its core is well, web apps to this to windows, there's a reason they haven't done to phones, right? And it's not bad life. It's because apple is like it's very funny to go from you can install name S I eighteen point two to look at this thicket of laws'. Its but that's really what's happening here with that ticket of lawsuits is directly impacting how these products designed.

I think IT is also we should just talk about this tim cook, uh, big tim cook interview in a world magazine because it's a big argument for being I think his his quote is best not first yeah right like he he's like we'll make the best products on the first products and that is in reference to the vision pro, which we stock out for one second and definitely in reference to A I right he's like first, we're going to the best with these over time. These are our big bets with the vision pro ah he basically is like here's how I use IT. I like flat on my back on the couch .

and watch TV a real in fact .

that a Richard watched T V to yeah thirty eight hours. It's of insurance vice fine, right? Like they took a shot on a weird product and whatever, and they didn't admit that was weird.

That fine there to make a super one with A I it's like I get that you're saying, you know you want to be the best thing and you certainly the distribution advantage you have the iphone. You can just get IT in front more people fastest. But if you looked around like this week, anthropos c is saying claude can now just use computers.

You like there's just there's the level of innovation in the industry is like out of control like ever is raising as fast as I can. Why don't know that's going to comes anything we stuck about. But it's this thing that were ten cookies saying these glimmer of apple intelligence are evidence that will make the best thing. Not I just like i'm not so sure about that.

but the evidence that they're making something now they are sort at least in this kind of artificial intelligence race that google and microsoft and everyone have been driving forward over the last I guess you're eighteen months now, but I think that's a question. Is IT any good? Is that what people want? Is IT going to do something other than generate a new imo g that you will send to only other people with iphone? Yes, I don't know. Is onna kill your battery?

We don't know that what actually, we definitely not know if you make general al there, the batter David will soon find out.

And also potentially the world yeah I I don't know. I I read a lot of this wash journal pieces like what else is tim cook about, right? Seriously I I don't even I don't even blame the guy like this is, uh, seven months ago he was telling everybody how he liked to do everything in a vision.

This is just what you do. And I think apple is in a position now where IT is forced to try to make the case that this stuff is really great. So tim cook is wake is saying he will like wake up in the morning and texas email and having summaries of his emails as a game changed.

Like I just don't believe that like that. Maybe having a bunch of emails slightly Better triaged for you is a game danger in your life. But I don't think that's true for very many people.

Can you imagine if you are an apple executive and you are like this? We've got summary. Yes, sim, her didn't read my shit. I think I think .

tim cook can afford in the system like if that were the if that we're truly the game changed that he needed, what is he been doing until now? And why has someone not been summarizing and quickly, miles more like how much value have apple shareholders lost? Because tim cook insisted on reading every word of every email for the last well.

no, he's famous. He's one of the C. O. He's famous reading customer and also like forgetting him off. But you made some cook in, like some apple svp. Three layers down the chain will write back to you because he'll do that. I don't know if he does IT the way that jeff fazer used to do IT, which is forward the email to a deputy with just a question mark.

Like all hours of the day.

this is truly why not getting the mall? yeah. Do you think tim cookies is an enterprise offer? Not just asking, like because this man ever locked in the conquer? no. Do you think he knows this frequent fire number?

He has a plane. I guess that I said he does. I bet he knows his united number because .

apple .

famously has like a big thing with united for people .

who are not tim cook. Apple's famous thing with united is they own a plane and sometimes they say .

the word united on IT. Yeah, that's that's rasonable.

I'm reading this profile and i'm looking at the two big product launches this year, and the profile is very much about tim cook making big bets, right? And it's okay. The vision pro, whatever you you got to put one foot in front of the other.

And yes, the meta glasses exist and yes, the quest 3s is even cheaper than before whatever。 Um it's much more like his argument is we will eventually do this best and that will win. And I actually don't know if that is the case right now for in these two categories. Well.

his argument for the vision prose, they're getting the started for the developers, they are getting the ecosystem kick started and that, you know, these early adopters, the people who are going to make things are getting into IT. But i'm not thing yet. I'm not saying the people who are making in using these tools that is kicking a fly wheel of innovation that's going to help to make something that someone else we use years. Now have we actually got ten anywhere with the study, five hundred dollar device.

Isn't that also the opposite of the best not first strategy? Like, yes, there nothing nothing about the vision pro suggests best, not first. nothing.

Thirty five hundred dollars.

Yeah, seven out of ten .

got him. He said, one other thing in this profile that I just want, I want to sit with for a second. He said he uses every apple product every day, every product every day.

That's a quote on west Davis tried to figure out how you would do that. Apple makes a lot of products. West owns a lot of them, including a thirty five hundred a fishing pro. And ah I would say that he he he made a violent effort and failed because there are too many apple products like using every kind of ipad in a single day is not a good idea.

It's not just that there are too many upper products. It's that they overlap in complicated ways, right? So that like even even cooks thing is uh he he claims to have an macbook error, macbook pro and an imac at the office and like, god help you if you try to use all three of those devices during a single workday. Like how what so that .

will kick me off because that's like what you should do the story because it's it's one thing if you say I use every one of every kind of product we make, everything I use, one mac, one ipad, one phone, one airports, every product every day and then specifically calling out three max is like, oh, you mean every product, right? The end.

both sizes of the apple watch.

both sizes apple watch, all fifteen skills of the apple watch. Do you think he's like, well, time to switch the apple watch for cellar, like that's all. And I actually think the evidence is that he doesn't use most of the products most of the time.

They've never one thing that came up in the commerce was this guide is not use apple home. There's no right no one believes IT .

no ten cooks as soon as guy, let's be real with each other. He's definitely so on us.

Guy, guy, well, support supply. Uh, jane, stan interviewed crag federally IT while to turn tech like this week you watch that s on and uh, two things he said of note really related. Richard SHE asked to not theory in.

He said, I use serious everyday syria serves one point five billion queries a day, which is interesting combat to and he said, I use that to open my garage, which is fine implies that crag federal e has a homework strock uh which is chAllenging actually uh for a variety of ways um and that he does not he chooses to say, siri, open the garage every single day instead of expressing import uh, as somebody with two different kinds of home kick openers, I love the idea of apples S P P of all software going on amazon and ordering a thirty dollar mirror o opener and wiring in. I love IT with all of my heart, and I absolutely certain that did not happen. I don't know how he's openings garage for thunk, but that's the way you do IT.

And I just I love the idea of handing like my ecosystem is working well. He's like the term. I wonder if IT apple.

when you get like promoted the S V P, instead of getting a roll, lax or a company car, whatever, they just hand you a giant box full of apple connected gear. And they are like, you have to have this senior house now, like this is this is the set up.

Welcome your your kit. Now actually I if somebody runs the home bridge, uh, to bridge a lot of stuff in the home kit, I know that a lot of the people who work on home kit at apple also run home bridge. This is a real thing, huh, like a lot of home kid engineers.

So I kep we're gona build the plugins in a great way. The real thing. And if you are those people, let us know because I have a number of feature request for you.

I just want to thank you. Um I don't know I don't know that you can uh use every apple product every day. But if you are listened to this and you can figure that out, send us your chart will read the chart next week.

That's all I really want to say. We think tim is mostly in an ipad guy right in my head. Tim is an ipad guy.

Tim has gotten fired out. He's circle LED in things in read. And we got to say break again, you'd figure out, let me know we going to come back. We don't talk about some with Richard.

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just going to be incredible. Get ready with, will get back. Back we're A I drive this segment. It's would be great. Take IT away claud.

Hello, welcome too.

We should let no book I am to her chest that this .

is a pretty good mabe upload all stuff and noam and let IT make the podcast. And then we will run IT because he makes like a twelve minute podcast we've run in at the end of an episode, and people can decide what they like Better.

That is actually pretty good. Will say that the chances of that is a more evenly paste verge cast is very high.

yes, more focused anyway. Do they have more catch phrases than me? I is a really the question that so there's .

a lot of A I knew this week the big theme is that ever even figured out the chat pots aren't to make them enough money. And so now we have to build robots that can take actions on our computer.

So about right? Yeah, I think there there's basically like two big pieces of A I news this week, which is we have to give A I more stuff to do and then, oh god, what if we give A I more stuff to do? Let's sue the A I companies so say those are the two things so let's let's just take them one of the time.

Ah the biggest news I would take a in terms of like things, they got the AI people excited uh was the new update to claude which is anthropic uh chatbot. Its its its competitor to GPT foro and lamon whatever. Us IT can now use a computer for you.

Um they they release a very cool demo video which is just one of the researchers sitting there and he basically opens up a spread shit and is like, hey, I need you to pull data out of this and put IT into an email for me and IT goes through and IT clicks around and IT says, oh, I can't find this data in here so IT opens. I think it's a vender software thing, searches through that, finds the information, put IT where there is uh the is is that I can actually click around and look at and use your computer and pull data from IT. IT was actually tracking what I was doing as I was going that was saying, like I hit the page down button and I put the curse over here and I typed this into the seems work very well. This is one demo and it's not a product that anthropic is shipping is a thing in the A P.

I that other people can build on that I ve already .

seen one build .

APP that can I will .

say anthropic is productive zing. Its A I Better and faster than any of its competitors right now. In a way, that thing is really interesting, but that is that is the thing, right? That's what everyone is out there are trying to build. That is a more elegant version, essentially, of what rabbit is with a large action model. I mean, this is thing just clicks around the web page for you.

I mean, is rapid doing said they would do IT, and they have built something that does something. And some people .

have tried IT. And IT does mostly .

nothing but something.

And so they've built something that does something. And so people have tried.

is the AI right?

Can you actually do anything useful with what they have?

Yes, again, have the sea of rabid on the code. You can listen to IT. There are a very different spot than anthropic.

And we had a my creegan, who is that had a product of anthropic. In your point about their Better production, zing is because they have a great product person. yes. And all the other companies are trying to hier product people.

Yeah, I I hired Kevin wheel, who's down a one of early interesting products suffer social companies over years like this is the playbook. Now everybody's after this.

And the first product and thinking of is beyond a chatbot. What can we do? And IT appears to be super theory, right? Like the thing that everyone is trying to build is the ultimate google assistant, or super theory, or this, a vision that everybody had.

One, alex, a first hit the scene ages ago, which is going to talk to the computer, and the computer is is going to do stuff. And then the sort of how, underneath this user story, no one could do forever. right? right? Well, here's a little lexi can do complain, music and set timers and not much else.

Here's sir can do. Apparently open crag federal is garage store. That's what I can do.

But then you, because I can understand actual language, your stuck that you have to write every query in matching query. Now you can understand actual language. Now I got the next thing. And in the solution seems to be we'll just have to use a computer to do that for you and A I will save that 上去 yeah and it's actually .

the I encourage everyone to watch the anthropic video because it's actually uh sort of inverted tly， a really interesting break down of how this tech works like that essentially just goes through and takes a series of screen shots and O, C, R S, the information out of the screen shots, and then says, oh, I don't have what I need from the screen shot.

But I see, I see from the score bar, I can page down or I see there's a thing over there like the the key here is basically taking this thing that people know how to do, but is very complicated to teach computers and just breaking IT down to a bunch of very simple things, which is like, look for this number next to this name. And if you don't see the name, search for IT in this, that like it's actually a bunch of pretty discrete steps. It's just very hard to explain to a computer in an efficient way.

But like you said, now that a computer can understand its language and images, essentially all you have to do is figure out a way to keep feeding IT language and images. And IT can do something with IT. And I think, like the anthropic video was the most convinced i've been that this is dubal because it's like here is just a bunch of screen shots. And it's like it's same thing that microsoft pitching with recall and we've seen from some startups and update. Like if you just turn the universe into a series of screen shots, I can actually make a lot out of that for you.

Well, it's not that far off from the way of vehicles. I mean that they're necessarily looking at things the way that I drive with us, but they are taking these these pictures many, many, many times a second total and reacting based on that. And it's just doing this on a computer, which to more and less complicated because of the way things are already later.

Yes, he is amazing to me how many people building all kinds of A I products I talk to who just want to use the sub driving car metaphor. It's very funny and create IT. IT is a really similar problem, is also a really similar like chAllenge over time to get from like very good to perfect. But IT is like you're totally right. I think that's exactly right person.

The really interesting thing on the computer side um is society cars can't like be recursive in that cur way. The most interesting claude demo I saw was claude asking itself to generate code to solve a problem.

Well, you can claud with claude.

So it's like you like, do you saw this problem for me? And it's like, okay, the best thing I know how to do is open the web as or open cloud as prompt myself get an answer and like, that is really clever. You know there's all these benchMarks that uh kind dly I I think are too early in the world of A I benchMarks to mean anything, but they're like, here's a test.

We ranted that human score seventy percent on claude is IT like seven yeah it's nowhere but it's twice as good as the next nearest thing. And the rabbit is like we were not doing a good job. Is spotify? Sorry, i'm going to get another angry who is .

doing a good job. I was spotify and you use spotify. Well, I think about seven percent using spotify.

Spotify like it's a podcast that's not what I wanted, but the idea that the computer will figure out to use itself is powerful. The idea that the computer can generically use any computer in reason its way, who I should just use claude to solve this powerful. And then underneath that is, I think, just a like the industry has to come to grips with the idea that we're not programing computers anymore like in API is the best way to use spotted, right? Like there's a lot of task.

We're just telling the computer what to do and having do IT deterministic ally is the correct solution and were headed towards a place where a robot taking in infinite number of screen shots of a windows desktop clicking on stuff is that is going to support the billion dollar valuations of the AI companies. And like I don't actually know, but I don't I don't know about that. I I don't know. It's probably broken and I don't believe ve you well.

this is this is a good vivid into the humane stuff, which is the other kind of agent might even be too kind to what human is trying.

I mean, every is microsoft announce agent t stuff this week in response to the anthropic news and some of the microsoft news open an eye leaked out that it's working on some agent stuff when again, the future of theory that they have described is the the, i'm so sorry for this world agents, whatever keeps saying so the future of serious agented apple is a different way of building, because actually have the apps running locally in their Operating system and control the Operating system so they can do more A P, I layer stuff. But everyone's headed here. And then human sort of like they are.

you skip type has that, by the way, but that is apple's single biggest vange in all of this. I'm increasingly convinced, is that apple is going to, with the new theory, just launch a thing I think either called syrian tensor up intense. And basically, IT allows developers to open up things that siri can go do inside of their apps.

That's the answer, right? Like the only reason to go do this much more complicated determining sicking is if you can convince the world to open up A A P, S. to. And apple is maybe the only company that can just tell developers to give IT access to stuff, and most of them will do IT.

And I think .

about that we will it's possible that are wrong. But historically speaking, apple is the only company on earth that tells developers to jump and they jump and netflix.

still not on apple TV or vision, an integrated into the apple TV up or on vision pro.

true. That is true. Uh, there are not many companies as powerful as netflix in those negotiations that but so I think it's. If apple can do that, IT puts apple way ahead because you don't have to solve really complicated AI problems.

If you just are handed the structure data, then syria has to do the beginning and end right, which is understand what you want and figure out how to go. Do IT make sense of the universe is not part of IT, and that that is the hard part, uh, but the human thing is. So there are two bits of humane news this week that I very much enjoyed.

Uh, one is that humane, drastically cut the Price of the A I pin from six hundred ninety nine dollars to four hundred and ninety and nine dollars and if you're saying, David, that sounds too expensive, is there are still at twenty four dollar lar a months description? The answer is yes, there is a but they're still here. They're still trying to ship stuff and do stuff.

And uh the other bit of news that has been it's like kind of news, but kind of not news. Uh o malley went and met with bEthany on and around the cofounder and saw their Operating system, which they call Cosmos. But it's O S at the end capitalized because it's an Operating system very good. Uh, running on a some kind of card ash board was not exactly clear, but the idea was humane now wants to license its A I Operating system to other .

companies.

The web story is the blackberry is for its webs, you name IT yeah .

and so um a perfectly reasonable idea. I think there are a lot of bets right now about who the AI Operating system is going to be a every good would .

like to change is that a bet is that I don't get IT.

Amazon is about to spend an awful lot of money and try to convince you to spend some money on the idea that there might be alexa that can underpin all of your AI devices. Google, that's what german I is trying to be. I mean, that's what that's what GPT four o is like. All these companies are going to make most of their money breaking their stuff into other products. Like if that is that is the win here.

if you can pull us like i'm looking at this humane image of what caused most, uh, cause O S whatever it's called cosi d cos what but the O S are you just .

kind of hit IT hard. You hit the last Cosmos. It's removed.

And like I don't want say removing site, but so you look at their blocked agram of how Cosmos works and all they really done is they've sort of replace like applications with the word agent and then added like fifteen more blocks on top of that, that are basically like we here you speak and then we understand what you want and we go to one of these agents.

The part where you replaced application layer with agents is, is a big deal if that's the thing is going to happen. That is like a fifty year industry wide project. Not a thing you can shift to hp to put in a car, which is kind of what the article says is like it's very confusing.

See, you still need applications. Sure, you still need a spotify to exist. So you can click on IT.

Yes, as long as you need spotify to exist, the easiest way to play the music is to pay spotify money, to use the API to just play the music. Vivian is going to get apple music. Can you cool? That cares. How are going to do IT? You're going to ask alexa to open a web, an open apple music, and click on apple music. And APP, if what if you make or you can sign a deal, the apple to put the apple music APP running on the revision, which is what they did because that is saying and there's no reason that you have to give up on the way that we've run computers up until now just because you need a licence. And i'm deeply confused by this.

Yeah, I think the same argument we've had a lot about all of these AI devices is like, isn't this just another APP on your phone? Like is could could an A I system like credibly replaced a lot of what you do in android, dota or car play over time? Like yes, absolutely IT is good theory the solution to car play hundred percent uh that is not the future of bio ah if it's part of IT, right? And I think there are there are a lot of instances in which agents are going to be useful and powerful and valuable, but the idea that they are going to like immediately overthrow the whole ecosystem we currently have is just wrong.

And so I think again, if you're if you're an O S. Maker and and if you're humane and you're desperate to have a reason to stay alive, you have to make this bet right. Like the the big swing is we are going to be the one who controls all the agents.

And if everyone who controlled all the agents, you become very powerful. The problem is there aren't any agents, the ones that there aren't very good. And also no one needs them yet, like it's a tough sled. I think the thing I strugling .

with every time we we get into this discussion or we're talking about these things is, let's say that IT works perfectly, that they get all the bugs out, that it's smart, it's fast, it's efficient, it's still like clicking around and using a thing. How many times the day do you click on something and like the page doesn't load like and maybe they can make you smart enough to okay, now I need to refresh you. I got an air and I need to go back and I need to do again but like if i'm sitting there saying, he man, I told you to do the thing and it's like hear the pages and loading, sorry, bro.

I want to see if my computer be more honest with me about why it's not working in that specific way, in that specific tone that would rule he was like on side, I like a connection. shit.

That's what serious should do whenever instead of being like, here's some stuff I found on the web. I should just be like, sorry, bro, I don't know.

Yeah, I would like IT Better do you ever? Iin, because eighteen second right now? A B, yeah, I just .

think for a second then it's just like, I don't know that matter.

who cares the the five.

I just like i'm very curious about all these like AI agents. Everyone's pitching them now because they have to like I I really think the business imperative for why we spending all this money, why are we running all these GPS all day and all night is not checkbox. It's not image generators. It's not this information scale.

It's a little bit disinformation.

Oh, that's that's like fun and it's it's a fun that it's like the garnish of the business. Like do you want to see a picture of everyone must jump ing up and down and turning into a monkey and an exploding. We can do that for you.

Is that a business? I don't know. He does not appear to be paying anyone's bills, but I can make you an all powerful robot, can use the computer for you and fill out and do this spread ed sheet work that you don't want to do.

Maybe, maybe someone pay a lot of money for that. And so you just like see them charging towards or hopefully we can pull this off. Hopefully we can get to get to this to the business bases for IT.

And I you been covered, what is IT is the dream, right? You just talk to a computer and goes up and does something for you. I'm just not sure any this log.

Can I actually off IT? And then underneath that, this, the next time you shock about, is the fact that all of this is built on a bunch of models that are trained and much a CoOperated information that none of the laws have been resolved CT, and more of them show up every day. So just this week, news corp, which owns the wall street journal l in the newer post its murdoch empire uh.

Company, uh, they do perplexity for infringing ing on all of this content. Proxy to the payable perplexity sad proxy is sort of perpetually sad. It's getting to copy infringement.

Perplexity is the one that wired and forbes and others have repeatedly also pointed out is, uh, I think the wired headline was plexus is a bullsh machine, which is very good. yeah. And then wrote another story about how perplexity stole the story about perplexity being a world ship.

IT was just very good. Uh, this the end perplexity so far has basically been like internet a pry fine. We can just have IT here. And it's really only been a matter of time until this came for perplexing in a prety big way. I think I was was IT this week or last week that the newer times sent a season desist to perplexity, essentially alleging the same thing, yes, that last week was last week last week.

we should know the time, also sued open the eye. That's an ongoing last suit. Uh, our company of ox media, the business sign company, signed a deal with open eye, as did conn.

Ask is bunch other publishers like this is in the air? Like yeah that's disclosure, by the way, if nothing new that but this is just like in the air, the atlantic side to do like that and they actually have school set of uh opening APP power tools on their website ah one of which is just a chrome pluggin that as you could like as you browse the web, IT shows you relevant stories from like the hundred and fifty year history of the atlantic, which is neat like yeah, I wouldn't read all the like stories if not for an eye like IT IT works like see plus that's ahead ourselves but like they are building stuff with IT yeah but this is the the foundation of the entire industry is like copper infringement or alleged copper infringement in just this week as well. Kevin bacon, kate machine and eleven thousand five hundred other creators um just like issued a letter saying this is an unjustifiable transfer.

We made all this work. This is our life's work you've taken at all and now you're supporting these valuations without giving us anything in return. You can feel about that anyway.

You want. I know a lot of people who feel like this is histories greatest crime and said that them should be in jail. I know those people exist because I write to us every time I talk about this in the west, we welcome you here.

Then there's another group, people who say, well, look, it's just a computer reading everything in the world. The same way that if you could read everything in the world and then summarized on message notifications, you would do the same thing, which is a stretch, but also an argument econic. And I ve know that this is a coin foot, pure coin foot.

I have no idea to take off. But if you believe that the future of alexa in syria and google assistant and humane and anthropic is do like taking a million screen shots to your computers and clicking around for you, all of that is built on the foundation of copyright last suits that have not yet been result in any way, shape or form. And it's kind like, yeah, this industry is headed towards a Cliff.

like full Cliff one way or another. The one other part of this backdrop vision talk about is all of these companies right now are trying to raise gigg antic, astonishing amount of money. Uh, opening, I just raised the biggest round of funding ever, uh, anthropic is I out trying to raise a ton of money? Perplexity is out trying to rise a ton of money like there.

There is a real sense from all of these companies that they are going to need just vast oceans of cash to do some combination of bill god, uh, find a way to sell this stuff to enterprise customers and protect themselves from losses like I think every one of these companies is trying to make the case that this stuff is going be so big and so lucrative in order to be able to fund the fight to get there. And it's such a bizarre dynamic where it's like they are simultaneously promising how great the world is gonna. And like battening down the hatches, right? And there, like microsoft open eye this week was another place, is that there giving a bunch of money to newsrooms to make them make more A I stuff. And I just like what what a bizarre inversion of the same thing where they like we are going to give you money to take your stuff, or we're just going to take IT for free. But here's some money to make a stuff.

but they they're giving some money. They announced ten million dollars and five million of IT is in credits for the software.

Is IT really at annoying.

which is not the same thing as money?

No, it's not. IT is super not. But all of this suffers like it's everything is running as fast as possible in these like in mutually exclusive ways. Except that IT sort of feels like if the money gets big enough, it'll just be okay.

That's this is I I haven't thought this all through. And i'm curious reader feed back on this boat. The first cases for if the money is big enough, I think the judges in the copyright right cases are going to be like, look at all of your money, pay IT to them like at some point you're like, I made a thing so valuable by taking all of this stuff without permission, a judge is going to say, well, that that is actually a value transfer. IT doesn't make sense, right? If you needed all of this to raise your six point nine billion dollars OpenAI, then IT stands to reason the but that stuff is valuable and you should take some of the money you raise and paid to the people whose work you need to make your product that supports the valuation.

But that kind of my point, right? I think if you're open eye, you say, okay, listen, judge finest find us one billion dollars. That's so much money, one whole billion dollars.

Oh, it's cool. We got five and a half other. This is what I mean.

Like, I think there is a sense among these companies that if they can just build a big enough warchest, they can neither buy out or weight out all of their problems and that those are tech problems as are regulate problems. Those are fights, and publishers like that just gives them the money to wait. And I I there's a reasonable evidence that they're going to be right about that. The the wild card is, are we do for some kind of judicial and to this that just knife through the whole industry and that I think everybody we is lying to you if they think they know the answer yeah.

that's the other .

thing that happening is that they're also getting attack from the other side on the the output side. Uh, not just the copyright infringement accusations of what they've done, but who is responsible for what these tools do. There's a lot suit that has been publicized by the york times, not other outlets. We wrote about IT, where character I and google are being sued after the teen died.

And one of the main questions about this is, so if I interact with your generated vi tool, maybe I put in a prompt and IT said something back to me, is anyone legally responsible for what happens in next to how much? what? What are you supposed to do? what? What should be the rules? So what should what safety should you implement? Should these things be useful by children? None of these questions have been answered yet and there that could have be another problem .

yeah and that is the realist problem, especially for the character as of the world where they sort of like advertising that these are therapy tools and it's like, well, if you lead people to these outcomes, you're probed responsible for them. And no one has thought in this. I'm just saying it's need to talk about agents in a syria or relax. I can do stuff for you and then there's like, oh, shit, it's doing stuff for you. Also, the foundation of this might be Kevin bacon gets a billion dollars like weird, weird outcome.

Can I just read you the one sentence? Uh, thing that they all signed on to yeah. IT says the unlicensed use of creative works for training general AI is a major unjust threat to the livelihood of the people behind those works and must not be permitted. OK like i'm just i'm amazed they ve got eleven thousand five hundred people to care about .

that enough to sign tomorrow the verge commenters alone would sign that statement.

It's just such a like, I don't know, it's just such a milk toast. Way to be like I am gently mad at the AI industry.

I don't think it's gentle. It's a major unjust threat that must not be permitted. What do you want them to say, sam? Men should be arrested. Eleven thousand people.

It's just like money, please no IT .

has must not be permitted .

IT as livelihoods you know that is this is its not its money money the unfortunate .

parties that IT already happened.

Yeah of the back Kevin town bro yeah OpenAI raise seven .

billion dollars so that I can give Kevin bacon one of them and then I can move on.

Um the other thing is going on to the world, just scan over because this is an election year and everyone can see the weird election. This information for their own eyes is that the companies that make these tools, uh, and I promised labelling and metadata for years and have done nothing well, all of this is getting fully out of control, are slowly starting to add level and medicated work. So, uh, google is going to open source.

It's water marking tool for a generated text will see how that goes I want is that the hardest one? But google photos is now going to show A I generated metadata in the photos like to be a label of detect the meddle a we're just it's a slow, slow burn and an o apple crack federation in the same interview trana. So he wants photos to be photos.

He doesn't want real photos to be fantasy. And they are also showing some information in the photos. This is not enough flatly. None of these companies are doing enough. We've all talk to a huge game about things like c two, P A and content authenticity. And we're kind of IT like we're going to do exist data in labels that people can change while the misinformation is running rampant everywhere has .

quite feder seen that photo. The brides may like the rearm. Somebody should tell him about that. Yeah.

that was like a panama mode thing. That is, is th Epace o f a ll o f t.

hat i s s o b ackwards t o m aybe w hat t he t he l ogic f or g oing s low o n a ll o f t his f rom a ll o f t hese c ompanies i s l ike. We have to really test to this stuff and harden IT and make sure that works and make sure IT can be, you know, easily removed. And we have to understand how IT fits into the product. And absolutely none of that care is being taken with the tools that the same companies are making to make the things that are the problems in the first place. So it's like it's very hard to take seriously this group of people who is like, we have to we have to take our time and do this right when the people who sit like three cubicles over are the ones being like want to put guns in your pictures, three go.

It's true, and that is the honest team at google. Actually, I I am one of the buildings in .

mountain views is just add gos building very good.

right? We to take a break, we're going to come back with lighting around clear pilots and very excited for the one that .

support for the verge cast comes from batman outcome shadow, available only a media st. Three and three s. To restore justice in golf, in city, you must confront your deepest shadow.

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of a side director i'm gona show me very hard to i'm very excited. We'll be right back. Our back flighting around sponsored by no one, no one for all your not not money needs.

See see what yet. That's what I could look like if you paid us money. Someone money, not me, i'll get there one day, right? It's slightly .

around David.

I think you need to start with honestly the news that should have .

had the entire verge cast. I just want you both to be very proud of me that I made IT over an hour into the verge cast, and I have not mentioned the books palma two once. I haven't even, I haven't even teized IT.

The best thing of the books from two is that we've entered the stage of covering IT, this thing where we there was a league of IT and recovered the league. And then the announcement of the tiny .

deep in the week, the verge.

is the official news source of the book's pala. And I feel very good about this. What I like is .

that they get the sequel out fast enough that my press' dule six months out tweet asking people if they know where their books point hasn't even going up. And they're already selling me on .

one somebody posted on threads today accusing me of being in league with books to get rid of all their inventory. A on the, on the one before the two came out like you time this on burb is big books, is big books yeah that's that's that's me. They they fund everything everything in the basketball hub you see behind me.

Ah so the books palet two still two hundred eighty dollars, which is still too expensive. But it's it's still it's a smart phone sized ear. To answer a question, Richard, I use mine every single day, and I love you very much.

IT fixes a couple of the things that were wrong with the last one. Uh, mostly. IT was a little slow, and I ran a really outdated version of android.

Now I suspect IT will be less slow and IT runs a less outdated version. IT doesn't run a current version of android, but it's Better. Uh, it's still it's the same size is the same screen.

IT has, I believe, the same amount of rain and the same amount of storage is just like a gentle upgrade of the same device, uh, which I think is fine. I to me, honestly, the fact that books just made another one of these is the thing that is most exciting and interesting books. IT is basically like a spaghetti, the world kind of company. They just make every single product size and skew.

You can imagine they are dying bet for ean screen.

Yeah and and that's fine, right? Like you can go on their website and by just about any dimension of your device that you want. And I think just the fact that this one is getting a second rev suggests that IT is successful and and meaningful to people just .

in case people I want to mean that if you want something with a fan in IT, dyson will sell to you. Suck, blow anything with fine.

however told you'd like you're vacuum to be dyson has you? I got you so good. There was there's one, I believe that launched in just china that also doesn't have a camera.

Yeah ah which I think is prety cool and is a thing. Uh, there were a launched people when I wrote about the palm in the first place. We're like, I would love for one of these without a camera for just a variety of security and privacy and family reasons. But, uh, the one that shipping around the world still has a camera.

why?

I did use the camera on your books?

Promoter, no.

literally not once. Uh, when I wrote about IT, i've forgot that existed until somebody I was talking to asked me if I use the camera and I said, no, I forgot attack camera. Um but there this is that you might use IT for like scanning and digitizing stuff which like sure but to mean it's I get rid of the camera on not to press on forty box everybody wins way Better.

But yeah I think this thing is i'm excited about IT. I'm hopeful that they'll give me one and I can review IT. Uh I think the thing books is trying to do IT got kind of right the first time, like that combination of the size, that the thing and the fact that is in the fact that IT runs android apps is awesome.

Uh, we tried to get panos canada look at one. He refused to do that on camera. That was very upsetting.

Um and yeah will see I got a lot of people asking me, should I buy this one or the new kindle paper weight? People want eating devices. Man, yes.

I will say I encourage ever going to pull over in your car and then look at our article books want to click on IT and scroll down and look at books his own press photo of a guy holding the book's pala too. He's very much like.

what do I do? And here, yeah and he's like.

what is this thing? He's like, how did I get him here? He's like, yeah, i'm looking at a little phone with me.

Just a guy in a beige sweater is like, why does this .

have no colors like his face? Like, I I hate this book. I don't want you working. It's very much the face I imagine Richard made the first time you looks is like this is face that you please schedule the tweet by great here.

It's good. And i'm i'm glad of these things is like someone should make like an android thing with an ean screen that runs apps. It's great. I just think that people will probably put them down and forget that they bought them.

just as I believe this tl man put this one down.

Why if you ask him about IT right now, he wouldn't be able .

to tell you to book. What are that was a job.

This is why the problem is the Price yeah really with all of these services like the palmer or something like IT at nine and nine box like sold, right like the the kindle succeeds for that same reason. It's like if you buy a kindle and use IT a bunch and forget a bit for a while and use IT a bunch and forget a bit for a while, you've paid the correct amount for IT two hundred native boxes. Too much for that use case. Yes, that will be purchasing.

I got to go use my books, poa one, and at least one more time to make IT worth. apparently. I, Richard, you've got the best one at all.

Yes, senior citizens, very, very upset at t mob of all companies because IT won't honour its lifetime Price guarantee. Turns out on they lived, I guess, longer than team mobile thought. You tell people they're gonna give them a lifetime Price lock. You figure how long could that last longer than you think? T mall, they probably figure that out the same way they do security.

That's for .

that's a secondary .

stab right there. Thousands of fcc complaints are the from people saying that they signed up for a Price lock in what twenty fifteen to ten years ago, the team I will assumed everyone would die within one decade.

They had a senior plan that was market is specifically to .

people fifty five.

And O, T, yes. And included this. And those are not people you want to disappoint .

on a lifetime offer. They will remember.

Has anyone ever not lived? Surge ret, the lifetime Price guardie like this makes me of back in the day when the airlines would sell the people like the two hundred and fifty thousand dollar lifetime fly wherever you want, first class thing. And then there are the people who were like, are chAllenge accepted. I live in the sky now, yeah. And eventually all the airlines are like, what you can do that and they're like, remember when you said lifetime, I like the everyone is just don't do this if you can do IT just don't do IT and then they're the companies that offer a lifetime deal and then go out of business and it's what what are we doing?

Well, that's a win.

That means you it's the lifetime of the executive who .

approved yeah one hundred person in the fcc.

Complaints are some choice quotes are text to dug them all up. One of them I am not dead yet a customer in new york currently. That's a very good.

There was one person who complained that their Prices going up fifty dollars a month because they had ten lines. Now like out ten lines.

it's good. We've got that lifetime guarantee that.

I mean, that's fair. I'd get everybody on that plan. You guys want to join my plan.

I will, uh, take this opportunity to remind the first audience the t mobile existence current state because the government allowed IT to buy sprint in a deal, uh, which took our nations number of viable nationwide wireless Carriers from four to three. And to solve that problem, the government may dish network, making network that product net k is called project genesis or genius that I work doesn't exist, just I don't know what to tell you.

You can go to the website. The website sometimes doesn't load when you go to addition now working project, it's sometimes just isn't there like just physically doesn't load. And then if you do get IT to load, you can buy, uh, what is a motorable edgy plus like twenty twenty three motor al edge plus that's the phone they sell and that phone, if you go over the sub at IT, will mostly roll onto eighty and ties network.

perfect. I don't see the competition, baby.

What I am just saying, you know, no selection season. That was the deal a negotiated by Donald trumps and I trust division to preserve competition. The wireless market, we did a when I think of A T, T verizon, t mobile and the biggest threats they face every day.

Can I just read you one paragraph from the story? Yeah, it's like gona side in the middle the story, but IT is the best knife in the whole story. Uh, last year, team mobile notified some customers that IT would automatically switch them to new or more expensive plans unless the customers called the company to update of the change.

T mobile customer service ribs were instructed detail users. We are not raising the Price of any of our plans. We are moving you to a newer plan with more benefits at a different cost. It's not whether the Price is more or less you guys is just different. It's just different.

I'm sorry, i'm just reading the the project genesis separate none of its good man. Anyhow, why else care is a nice piece. You're a favorite. Now to further enrage you about our nations wireless Carriers and I space, I will inform you of my line round item, uh, which is that the federal trade commission, a pass what's called the click to cancel rule.

This is the rule that says if you sign up for something, cancelling IT has to be as easy as signing up, right? So you can click on something to sign up to a subscription, or usually membership or whatever. To get out of IT, you ve got to be able to click one button.

These are called negative option contracts. Whole thing. There's like three or four different laws to try to solve this problem. And the fcc put up a rule a while ago, everyone complaining about the rule, another pass rule. This is like leaning cos fcc saying this is bad for consumers to make people dance through cancel flows or hide, you know, options for the escalates. It's got to be as easy to get out as I was to get in.

This is an objectively correct stance rate.

Everyone loves this rule.

There's not like a secret thing that I missing about why this might sucks for consumers. This is just great.

No, no. This is what .

happens when you make millennial call. The new york times cancelled their secretions. Millennial s hate phone calls .

hundred percent.

and know the lennon cc is like doing anything. Uh, guess immediately, who suit to stop this rule? If you guess our nation's ias peace and what is career, you would be cared.

I was going to guess, James, that was going to be.

my James is in a bunch of advertisers or in there, A D T. A D T is in there. So it's their trade groups, right? So the nash, the N C, T, A, which is the the I sp trade group that represents comcast charter, cox um IT, represents streaming services like disney, AMC, paramount, water brothers, discovery disclosure, comcast's investor parent company.

I take that what I they suck in this, the ib, which is the advertising, the international advertising bio that's google, netflix, amazon, meta, visio in the nfl, the essay, A, D, T. So all these huge mies are, through their trade organizations, basically suing the F, T, C. In saying, no, we do not want you to make click to cancel Mandatory. And the argument is, the ftc is trying to regulate consumer contracts for all companies in all industries, across all sectors, the economy from forbidding businesses, from making customers council services using a method that differs from how they sign up.

Yes, that is what they're trying.

That's correct into the argument here is freedom in amErica requires us to be the fleeter customer, like get the any state out here. It's wild underneath that this is some real monkey legal stuff, uh, is how they probably attempt to go after this. So the ftc is the executive agency of the government.

IT has some powers or some powers doesn't have the main power, is like a rule making authority. It's a ability to like make decisions basically. And that was basically just overturned by the supreme court.

I will link to IT, but there is this concept called chevron difference where the courts would differ to the agency like you know best, like you're starched by experts. You made this decision. We will differ to your roommates process if you get sued.

But this supreme court threw that out, and other courts get to decide if these rules make sense, which is basically just like an explosion of our government works. Anyway, all that means is a the contrast to the icon from a this get up here I S speed agreement. And that is stupid. Uh, so that's this is going to it's amazing of these companies are buying this amount bad press. They should just make Better products.

But we are. This always just makes me think of the the place i've gotten to a streaming T, V, where basically what we've done is just very slowly reinvent cable, but it's easier to cancel now. And in a very real way, that's a giant Victory that, like I pay as much, is the worst user experience in a lot of ways, but at least I can cancel IT success.

And IT is just bunkers. Half few things have gone that way yet. My kids, I there are so many things I pay for because I just can't figure out how to cancel IT like literally the the just a name one, the austery journal, which uh, i'm not important .

enough to need to .

subscribe, being honest each other, they really got IT .

when I was there. They were like, listen.

you read about the smart home stuff. They don't you don't need to read journalism, but like you, you have to call a number and find a person. And I like, I SAT on hold for a while on time and gave up.

And it's like, this is not how this disposed to work. This just sucks you. And IT is like that everywhere I had to go to my gym to cancel, like the third time ever I went to the gym was to cancel the gym. Af.

well, David, I think you should take Better care of your health, so sign up for another jam membership and they never get out. That's IT we wear away over. I'm furious that I can cancel more things more easily. I don't even know my who passed her, but cancelled.

If you want to cancel the verge cast, you have to call me line and will never tell you his number.

That's IT call the test line and explain to us why you need to cancell the show. That is a dangerous prompt. Think twice.

Make IT funny. That's that's a request. Rest room.

And that's IT for the verge cast this week. Hey, we'd love to hear from you give us a quality six six verge one one. The verge cast is a production of the verge in box media podcast network. Our show is produced by liam James will poor and air gas, and that's IT.

We'll see you next week.

Support for the verge cast comes from batman ARM shadow, available only a medic st. Three and three s metal quest biggest, most anticipated release of twenty twenty four is batman outcome shadow, a ground breaking new entry in the celebrated outcome series experienced the world of gotham city through batman's eyes and his fists become the night batman outcome shadow is included when you buy medicus three or three s available now learn more at batmen on shadow dot com RAID a tea fourteen batman ark shadow is only in VR meteetsee and three s offer valid on qualifying products purchase from september twenty five, twenty twenty four through April thirty, twenty twenty five terms supply.