Smart sleep is worth the cost
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Walk to the word cast, the flagship podcast of quantified bram cycles. And when they would peers and I am playing batmen or come shadow on the quest three ah I tend to always have one game that I like to play on the quest, usually for just like fifteen or twenty minutes at a time in between meetings or at night, just to kind of move around.

I like this Better than know, sitting on the couch playing video games, even though, Frankly, I do a lot of that too. This at least kind of gets the blood going in a way that I really like a for a long time. I was super hot.

V, R. Then IT was supernatural when I was feeling like exercises. Then there was a tennis simulator that I got strAngely into, but I kept hitting the ceiling, trying to do serves.

So that didn't last. And now i'm playing outcome shadow. I have loved all of the army games over the years there, like the perfect mix for me of lots to do, but pretty straight forward.

And they don't require me to just wander, immolate for hours very much. My kind of game, by the way, there is a decent chance you've had ads for this game. On this podcast.

I've gotten some complaints from people who were like too many meta ads in a row. And I can only assume, therefore overcome shadow. So trust me, this is not one of those ads.

Am happy to tell you all of the things I hate about both this game and the quest in general, but the schemes pretty great and having a nice time anyway, that is not work here to talk about today. We are here to do two things on the shop. First, we're going to talk to the song about kind of a year of experiments in quantified sleep that she's been doing.

She's try gadgets. She's tried some more expensive gadgets. She's had a really expensive gadgets. And we're ongoing to talk about whether any of them are actually worth IT and have made her sleep Better.

Then we're going to talk to alan Johnson about the A I D J on spotify and what that means to have a computer decide what is good and what you should listen to. You are really great piece about IT. I have thoughts.

I actually disagree with turning some ways. So are going to we also have a question from hot line to do lots of fun stuff coming up on this episode. But first we'll get to that. But I have to go beat up some bad guys on the street to gather. This is the verge cast over right back.

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Welcome back. So we talk a lot on the show about the idea of tracking yourself and using wearable ables to get about your biometrics. And the whole idea of the quantified itself, which is a phrase that I really hate, but IT just means tracking something in order to be able to do IT Better.

The thing we don't talk about as much with that, I think, is sleep. We talk a lot about exercise. We talk some about food and things like that, and all that of is good.

But I think if you wanted to make everyone's lives Better immediately, getting everybody Better sleep would be the way. So this song on our team has been testing a bunch of sleep related gadget. She's actually been doing this for a long time, both as part of testing lots of whereabouts also just because, like the rest of us, SHE liked to get more sleep.

So I figured now would be a super phone time to have on the show and talk through all of this. She's tried some cheap stuff. She's tried some absurdly expensive stuff.

And we're gonna, if any of that is actually worth the money and actually helps you to sleep this song. Hello, hello okay. So a few weeks ago you were here on the show and I said something about how I think sleep tracking is stupid.

I don't think I said those exact words, but I said something like those exact words and I would take a surprising number of people have had feelings ik me about that feeling ah and have told me that i'm wrong and he turns out that you, without even telling me at that moment when you could have told me, have been doing all kinds of interesting sleep tracking in research over the last version months. So I want to talk about IT and I want to talk especially about the the thing that you try to do, what you try to convince people that is not insane to spend many thousands of dollars on your bed. But before we get to all of that, I wants to talk about sleep magazine.

Because you you brought up in one of the recent story, this thing that I ve been really fascinating, which is that sleep tracking has become the thing in in a way that I can't remember this sort of quantified self trend being mainstream, quite like this, maybe ever, or at least since they're like get ten thousand steps craze. So I took over everybody like sleep is is such a thing, is having such a moment. And i'm curious what you make of that, like how why do you think sleep has gone viral in the way that that has?

So I think that we all feel a lot of existence, al dread, and there are so many things that are externally out of our control at the same time, like, you have a lot really health conscious people at this point in time. I attribute that and like my little bubble to, like all of these devices that apple Samson, google say will save your life. And, you know, these are things you can buy in large control.

sleep. You know, I talk to any doctor, you're gonna tell you, get a good night's work of sleep, sleep, eat, nutrient, dance foods, exercise. Every single health professional is gna tell you that if you can master these three things, your life will will be Better, like the, you know and I think that message really does kind of just solidify when you hate your thirties and things start creating ing and you have disposable income.

And you just realize, oh, man, like sleep actually is pretty important. These doctors, they are actually not lying. If my sleep is bad, I feel bad.

If my sleep is good, I feel good. So it's a very um easy way to just dramatically improve the things that you can control, like your anxiety will go down. If you sleep, uh well, your health will improve.

If you sleep well, IT will be easier for you to lose weight. If you sleep well, it'll be easier for you to build muscle. If you sleep well, IT will be easier for you to just do literally anything and have Better mental health if you sleep well.

So I think that's kind of where this intensity on sleep magazine comes from. And you know like what is sleep magazine? Sleep magazine is literally just buying several products to try and hack your sleep. So it's it's like really a convergence of late stage capitalism and existent al dread shaking hands like that mean in your tiktok shop to tell you like if you just do this one thing, you might sleep a little bit Better and feel Better while you deal with a bunch of other crap. And so I think that's honestly where IT comes from and there no wrong is is the thing i'm going to say.

well, I think it's true. I mean, IT strikes me as you explain those three things that eat Better, exercise more and sleep more, especially sleep Better, is by far the least costly of those three things like eating Better, it's hard IT looked like, yes, all the tasty foods are bad for you. It's just, it's just effect of the universe.

It's hard. It's the thing I struggled the most.

It's more expensive. It's more complicated, but it's very hard to eat well. It's also hard to exercise alive. Just requires a lot of commitment and dedication and the opportunity causes high because I could be sitting on my couch watching television and i'm not also.

it's painful, yes, it's painful.

yeah. And cools to you who you get up and do IT anyway. Uh, sleep has in very none of those costs.

Like if I can, i'm going to lie in bed for eight hours at night if I can make those eight hours more efficient, that is all upside, right? Like it's the only one of those three that that is getting Better. Sleep has zero downsides.

It's also enjoyable getting a good nights sleep is really great. IT is the most enjoyable of these three things that you can fix.

This would be one thing like the activity of going to sleep really sucked, but going to sleep is great. It's not like exercise that way where you feel really good at the end, but not during sleep is just awesome the whole time.

it's just great. The t like whenever you see someone going to bed and they're sleeping is there are always like sleep ing a little smile on their face of sleeping baby is good vives. And like you look at in some, as they have bags under their eyes, they generally don't look good. So like just culturally speak, sleep is by far the easier thing you can do.

And it's you know in terms of like effort put in to results immediately seen, you will immediately feel the effects of good sleep, or as you will not immediately feel the effects of sticking to a nutritious diet or exercising over a long period of time, like those, those things are all like, and you know you should do them. They're gonna a suck while you do them and you have to have a delayed gratification. There's none of that complicated ess was sleep, sleep, instant gratification. Yeah it'll feel good literally an hour and you won't have to do anything at at all.

It's pretty great. yeah. So that seems like in that vein of trying to do Better with sleep, there's a lot of snake oil.

I mostly don't want to with the snake oil. But I think by and large, if you see a thing on tiktok in the tiktok shop, you should assume it's not that. I think that's true of everything definitely.

including sleep magazine, mouth type I regionally that makes me angry mouth day.

But yeah but that seems to be there are to separate things that the tech industry has to figure out here. One is how to successfully tell how you are sleeping, right? Like and the sleep tracking thing has been happening for forever.

The reason we are talking about few weeks goes in the ring. Like the idea of using some device or another to track your sleep goes back along with. So I would assume we're pretty good at that now. Are we pretty .

good at that now? We are OK at that now. But so what we are really good at is um telling when you go to sleep and when you wake up the sleep stages. So like the R M sleep, the deep sleep, the light sleep.

dubious OK and that stuff is really important.

That stuff is important if you want to get more granular or if you're having sleep problems and you're trying to self like figure out like what's going on. Um you know so or they put a lot of research into IT, but even they are only like our algorithms like I think it's seventy eighty percent in agreement with the gold standard, which is police of node phy.

And that's when you go into a clinic and they put stuff on you and you sleep their first night and the scientists watch you and measure your brain waves. So that's the clinical gold standard and most consumer grade sleep truckers that are out there on the market. We're at this.

We are getting around seventy per seventy, eighty percent in in that range. So you know like so we're much Better than we used to be. But in the grand scheme of things, you do have to really take IT as very unsatisfying. Oh, this is my baseline.

I probably will know when I have a crappy night to sleep yeah but you can from that at baseline view trans like, oh, you have a lot of breathing disturbances, maybe you have sleep apnea and you should go to a doctor and maybe get a sea APP and see how that a improves your sleep quality. So like that kind of the real thought process behind sleep tracking as well as like another really valuable thing is having a eee e routine. So something that a elly tracker can do is help you build that sleep routine by going you regularly go to sleep at this time and wake up at this time.

Good job, buddy. You are super consistent with that. Or you know if you are just really having croppy sleep and you see that you wake up at time of times in the night, and aha, that is, the three cat is angry at standard time, and that kibo is not coming at the time that they are used to.

So they screamed and woke me up like, you can view patterns and trans kind of easily in that way. I just it's that super automatic great because you have to tag like angry cat. Like some of my sleep tracking devices literally got an angry cat tag. And I can tell you they wake me up quite frequently because they're angry. Sleep tracker for that because obviously the cat is hitting me in the face.

And one on that's been the chAllenged me with sleep tracking for forever, right? Which is I think the idea that IT tells you when you went to bed and when you woke up is nothing. The guy I know that I know it's like if the only thing of service tracker could tell me was that I went for a walk.

The guy, I don't need that that that's not helpful. But I will say to the credit of these devices, I think the thing you just said about these kind of macro trends that I can give back to you, one thing that happened me very recently was um my wife and I got a sleep number bed a few years ago. We went from trying to perpetual compromise on firmness to just being like we need to bed with two different firmness.

Sis, so we ve got to sleep number, but uh, it's fine. We got like the cheapest crap when it's fine, but IT does the thing we needed to do. And IT gives me like a sleeps score every morning. And I think, uh, the sleeps score is mostly meaningless speaking. But one thing I did for me over time was IT said he dated just fii.

Your sleep scores tend to be the best when you go about about eleven and you wake up about and it's just like that, just that one thing was like, okay, this seven and a half hour window of sleep seems to be what you need in order to be successful. And that was so IT was one of the things I like never really paid attention to, but was so helpful that like a, that's about the amount of sleep I need to be a successful, functioning adult. But also, this window actually kind of works was very helpful and I like that that alone is like, okay, we've now we've done something for me that I would not have done at my own yeah .

that's that's honestly, the thing about self quantification is that IT takes a really long time to tell you something useful and and sometimes the stuff that that points out to um you is gonna super obvious to everyone else but to yourself you're like, oh, I never really thought about that or I never really paid attention to that. So on the surface it's all really dumb.

But one thing that they showed time and time again is that logging these things will make you more aware of them. So like, I personally hate calorie tracking. I hate logging food.

I also have learned a lot about logging my food over time. Like, i'm just like, oh, I was extremely protein deficient. I thought I was getting enough protein. No I um oh I tend to like stress eat oh wow that like when you have to log all the things that you're stress eating, you will be more aware of those habits. So that's primarily the benefit of sleep tracking even if on the surface you look at IT and you're just like, well.

like .

yeah, I had on the other night where my my sleeve score was fourteen because I I went to bed and I got up at two o'clock with a total ler who didn't want to go back to sleep and I spent the whole rest of the night in his room yeah, thanks. bad. I got a notification that I got a fourteen like that's how that thank you.

great. Cool, helpful. Uh which brings me the second thing that I think this is complicated and interesting in this space right now is step one is like figure out how you're doing, right? And step two is make IT Better.

And I think the chAllenge with a lot of these devices, all these wearable ables, and this is the thing we ve talked about many times, is the so what the like, what do I do about this thing, right? And like you've seen this on the apple watch, where it'll like front you to go for a walk at the end, the night to hit your goals. And sometimes that's good.

And sometimes i'm like, shut up. I don't want to go for a sixty one minute walk ten bm to hit my balls yeah like i'm good. Thank you apple.

Uh, but I think the trick with sleep is figuring out how to make things Better. And I think this is what brings us to these adventures in five thousand doors mattress. Let's just just explain this thing to me that you've been slept on for the last few months.

I even living on the eight sleep pod for ultra. I have previously tested the eight sleep pod two pro cover, and basically this is a smart matters covers is not even the mattress. The mattress is my mattress that I spent a good amount of money on, because I really do think you should invest .

in sleep clea good. And a good mattress are like the two grown up purchases. I think I was all of the outrageous .

amounts of. I spent seven years in japan sleeping on a really cheap foot, and I actually got several muscular of skeletal like pain to the point where my doctors SAT me down in japan and in japanese, which is like Victorious on, you need to buy an actual matrice. So, you know, there was a huge life lessons for me. So take this into context that when I was saying, you know, I was willing to test and seriously consider a four thousand seven hundred dollar mattress for a not mattress but .

mattress cover, not even a mattress.

not even a mattress, a cover with a, uh a base at the bottom so the base will I love you so you can use that manually and be like here I feel like being coffee while I read and so little of you in that way. But the more like sleep maxing bits of IT is that there is like a special position where it's slightly elevates feet um for sleep position and supposedly the A I in this thing will adjust the position of the bad while you're sleeping to minimize soring. I have woken up while it's been moving the bed to make my spouse stop string .

I to say is the in the .

bed but I quantifiable proof in our marriage I am not the ones north so ha ha so this can be great father or not in your marriage to be like, I A mop the sore you sir are the sore but now I have actually woken up while this bed has been adJusting and watched as they're snowing dramatically lessen and just like in a sleep adult stay going like, oh, you mean I don't have to like, smack you and be like, wake up, you're souring it's woke me up.

I can just go like, oh, this is a fever dream, going back to sleep and want not to. That is one thing that IT does, but the thing that their most famous for doing, I certainly buried this lead, is that IT adjust the temperature, right? So there's two being inside of the smart mattress, and water runs through IT from this hub.

And I am perpetual cold, so I like to crack IT up. And it's warm and it's toaster, and I fall asleep so quickly. Normally, unlike tossing internet.

we are IT. Let's just confession time here on the verge, cast left to your own devices. What's the thermos out out .

when your sleeping a warm, like in the winter? A minimum seventy five. I, I, I need to be tosi I need to be warm. I need a heavy blanket year around like I get cold so easily and if i'm cold I don't fall asleep um so I need to be toasted.

The opposite. I used to get in trouble when I was a kid because I would sleep with a window open in like the dead of winter because for me it's like cold face, giant blanket. That's, that's the life. That's where what I wanted be. But then getting out of that is awful.

These like the, no, no, I, I don't, I, I don't mess around with cold stuff, I like to be warm to was still snag as a bug in the fetal position. That's me, my, my spouse. However, like this summer, like I think the max cold sudden you can go on this bed is negative ten, and they regard sly, negative ten.

I want to sleep on a slab of ice and living this penguin life. And honestly, they can do that on their side of the bed. I can be in tosta heaven, and they can be in ice cold hell. And we will be .

super happy about that. There's something interesting in that though because I think on the one hand, we have lots of science at this point about like optimal temperatures for getting good sleep and things you mentioned like the the position your body should be at to not snore.

So I can imagine in some world did like what this match is pat ought to do for you is optimize all IT automatically and be like, trust me, I know what is required to oh, he does do that, okay, because it's going to say giving you a lot of buttons in nobs might actually not be helpful. But I will attempt to solve these problems for IT. Okay.

yes, I know that IT has this A I feature which is locked behind the subscription, which is why everyone's like, are you crazy? And yes, actually.

to be fair, I do think a subscription mattress is just in principle, ridiculous. Even though I sort of understand why in principle is ridiculous.

In principal, subscribing to your mattress is ludek ous. And I think I wrote that in my review. IT is absolutely batch IT insane ludo crease.

But you're not even subscribe to the matures, you're subscribing to the matches lover. So it's absolutely Bakers hockey talk can say. But at the same time, I cannot lie. I have been sleeping so well, even when x turtle circumstances in this world are crazy. Sleep like a baby.

If you have that mode on IT will attempt to baLance all the temperature and and space and adjustments of the positioning. It'll try to just do all that for you.

IT does all of that for you. And then when you look IT up in the APP in the morning, it's so proud. It's like auto biot for adjustments last night to help you sleep longer.

So like I look at IT and it's like these micro adjustments to temperature. So I need to be very tosti to fall asleep. But to stay asleep, I parents need to sleep cool.

So it'll do that. It'll adjust during the middle of the night to the temperature to help me stay asleep. And the longer you test this stuff, the Better at gats.

And to the point where i'm just like my god, like all my other CoOperating sleep talker, data has basically that my sleep has been spectacular for the last six months. And I am putting on muscle. I am losing fat at the same tire.

I wake up like, I wake up four thirty A M now, feeling completely rusted because I go to bed at like in insane grandpa time, like nine thirty nine, nine thirty or whatever. And i'm out here, I just pop out of bed in the morning. So lot of times just like, hi, i'm arrested.

Time to go on a run which I never thought that was possible for me is I I am I have a history of in soma. I don't fo L E sleep easily. I previously in the past and I have the data at the back at I have had really crappy sleep's cores.

So it's it's just wild to see that and to feel the improvement in my life and then think. This is four thousand and seven hundred and ninety nine dollars, and then comes like a three hundred dollar per year subscription. There are something along those line. So really testing this, my whole thing has just been like, uh, how much is a good night's sleep worth? How much is the best nights sleeping th, to me?

Well, so let's actually separate those questions, right? Because I think if you look at the eight sleeping as kind of the very end of a spectrum, right, which is like IT, IT is doing the most and IT is charging the most. It's actually .

during the middle sleep number has like ten thousand dollar beds. So this being they do. So this being modulate and fitting on your existing matters is actually kind of like mid high spectrum, is not the crazy, is standard the spectator.

So put that IT like a seven, eight, ten sleep I can't understand. I don't I don't wanted know because I can't afford IT I want to know but i'm curious like I I remember, I don't even know if these are still really a thing. But there is this run of like sleep tracking apps, and there were the gadgets that would sit on your bedside table that would try to do. Have we got anywhere with those? Like can these approximately some of the stuff you're talking about?

Some of them can like I actually really like the amazon halo rise, which is rare for me because all of the amazon halo products I hated with like a burning passion.

you everybody .

that was not special, that was not a hot tag, but that I liked this bedside lamp that gently woke up with light. Ah because that's actually quite effective. I've tested a bunch of these.

It's really effective to wake up with light. Um so smart lights really great. If you hate alarms, they just come on. You wake up kind of naturally cause I just tell circadian rhymes and your brain works. I actually like that it's sleep tracking ah my cat got in the way, so I got a lot of rely inaccurate results.

So when you have these non invasive, non invasive and in the sense that they're not on your body in anyway on the nights and they can be very hyder mous, they, they can be great, if usually belong, don't have pets, don't have a bad partner, that can be cool, I guess. But you know, there is an option, is there? I ve tested the within sleep, which is like a little mattress that you stick under your mattress. So it's like a little pad that you stick .

under your mattress. Oh, that looks like a little heating pad.

super affordable. I think that's a really great budget option if you want to track your sleep. But you are like, these people are crazy.

I am not spending thousands of dollars on this mattress that does all of these things. I would totally valid. I think you are probably fiscally very responsible if .

that's your reaction. But every morning you wake .

up feeling a little so good. Waking up on this matter is, let me tell you, I hate I nobody hates this more than me. I hate this the most for me. Personally.

I think this goes on the list of, like, never try the really expensive thing because once you know you is the recommendation I always give with headphones like if you don't want to buy a really nice pair of headphones, don't ever try a really nice pair at, because IT will ruin everything else for you.

And I feel like this is the same thing you can't miss what you don't know one hundred percent hundred percent uh, there's uh, yeah. So there are cheaper versions of those things. Uh, I actually think the smart home is really great if you want to just hack IT and have stuff that is multifunctional because the other problem with a lot of the stuff is a very one, one dimensions, one function that does one thing, smart lights.

You can program them so you can wake up naturally that way. That's great. You can really help with you setting a routine, uh, smart thermos.

Dp, you can is not going to stop your marital problems and fights over what temperature the thermostat is, what you can schedule IT, so you know that that can help create much more inviting sleep environment for you. So those are all much more affordable hacks that have multi functional purposes that I personally have used and found to be good. Or does IT beat this expensive bed? No, no.

IT does not but IT at the same time IT is really about what is IT worth to you and how good do you want to feel night of sleep and you know I I have sleep problem so that means a lot to me um but if you're someone who sleep like the dead on the crap st. Ika mattress, we don't need this stuff. You're good. You're gucci like so IT is I I definitely understand the criticism and I am just sitting there a longside you've not in my head and going, yes yes you are you are completely and I agree with you you one hundred percent .

at the same time though. Yeah, if you are listening to this and you are desperately looking for a reason to buy this, here is this is not like buying a really fancy pair of running shoes you might never have, or like over investing and work out equipment that you're never going to use. This will work.

This is like you just put this on your bed and IT will start doing things in the same way that sleep has. That is happening anyway. Like adding something like this into the repetitive just helps. It's just it's just gna help.

This is why, like I want the version of this that is like sixty percent is good and twenty percent of the Price because it's like that one that give me the magic pillow and everything will be fine, you know. I mean, like that's the dream. Oh.

speaking of magic pillows, many, many years ago I tested a smart pillow, which was the most insane thing because I had a speaker inside of the toilet. So IT would track your sleeping and you're snaring because there's a microvolts there. And then IT would wake you up to your music inside the pillow.

IT was one of the most ridiculous fees of sleep that i've ever tested. But yeah, I know anything I tested was the oslo sleepers, which is the boss sleepers directed. They had a lot, a lot of people who are fans of those. Um and it's really great if you have a noisy environment because that's the one thing that this bed can't solve, right? I can't solve if you live in a city and your neighbour stairs loves to practice elsa at three A M in the morning, or in my case, if hacking zack loves to send garbage trucks outside of your house at exactly five A M and you're just like all I am awake now having these buds in your ear IT can muffin lot of the noise.

So I I used to be a religious user of that my myspace SE is a religious user of not not the those ones because those once again very expensive uh, or the oslo ones are expensive uh, but he has the cheaper anker sound core, which allows them to play their true crime podcast, which why you want to go to bed listening to murder is a thing I don't necessarily understand. But IT works for them so they do that. They love IT.

IT falls out of their ear, which we don't love. But the both, uh, design is very good for side slippers. I don't feel this comfort.

They don't fall out of my ear pretty great. Those will apparently come with sleep tracking sometime in twenty twenty five. So yeah, we're we're out here. We're sleep maxi. We're just sleep magazine and just trying to figure that out.

You are one that I have always like could be more than they are. So i'm actually encouraged to hear that they are gonna sive tracking stuff with that because like one thing, you and I have heard a lot of over the years people saying, like the the years are a really interesting place to do, wearables stuff.

And the specific to start to think about, like, how do I, you know, gently help you go to sleep and gently help you wake up? Like that's a thing you can do with the thing in your ears. Like, I don't know that can help you not sore or fixed temperature probe out, but there's like little things that if you're just doing like a tracker, you probably can't do. Um but if you have this device that is just onna sit in years all night, IT feels like there's more you could do. So maybe there is maybe there is a road map of interesting .

stuff to come there, especially first helping you fall asleep because I think that's something that a lot of people have issues with this just following a sleep and figuring out ways to fall asleep, staying a sleep. It's a it's a valuable thing because I have tried the smart alarm clock. I ve tried the hatch restore, uh, that tiktok made me try IT is on my nights and and that, you know, just having a sleep partner doesn't really work out well for me the light, great love that waking up.

How does the feel you know that you and my one year old son have the same problem for him?

He sleeping like a baby. So honestly.

honestly.

i'm trying, i'm trying to live that life. So IT makes me feel great.

That's good before let you go. Any other any other sleep gadgets on your mind? Anything else you've been looking at or trying or hope in a try?

Honestly, i'm just going to reiterate one last time that you should invest in your sleep in in whatever way and don't cheap out on IT. Uh sometimes the right decision is to buy a five thousand dollar mattress cover. Sometimes that is the right decision.

This is where we were gonna because the verge s editorial policy is dictate that you don't get to keep this thing um at some point. This beautiful device that has changed your life is going to leave your house. What happens then? Can you go back?

I'm going by IT, but that as either going to be a long term sleep testing control device so that I can test IT for a sleep tracking .

ers for journalism, journalism m for .

journalism purposes or you know, you just have to buy the thing because I can go back and you know like if IT was just a simple matter of also returning IT and knowing that that's what I was going to be, be cool. But because, uh, this has my biological material on IT, they will not necessarily return IT. They will destroy IT.

And then that just feels like e wait. So i'll figure out away. I'll figure out finance, think I will do a long term test tracking.

Uh, but this is one of the things where yeah I just going to have to buy IT honestly um if IT comes comes down to IT and. That's just IT has a huge factor my life, my sleep quality is so much Better. You can think i'm crazy all you like.

Um i'll figure IT out. I'll figure IT out. My husband does not agree with me, but i'll figure .

so that their problem.

not yours that's they're problem, not why I will be figuring this out and I will be paying abpi d .

description to get don't test IT unless you're willing to buy .

at my choices, but they are mine.

These are the things we do for our audience. We spend outrageous amounts of money on beautiful native sleep.

No, i'm winning. There you go. right?

We thank you.

As always. thanks. I haven't made sorry.

We have to take a break. And then we're going to come back and we're going to talk about music will be right back.

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Alright, we're back. If you use spotify, i'm sure you know the D, J feature you click on IT IT has this A I generated voice that greet you and then IT plays you music. Not the idea that is supposed to be a sort of constantly updated, A I curated playlist of music that you would like.

I love this feature. I listen to IT all the time. I think the voice bit is kind of weird, but I think the idea that I can just sit down in, essentially press play and have something play music for me that i'm going to like is very powerful.

Alson Johnson on our team feels silly differently. He has also been testing A I, D, J stuff, has a lot of thoughts. And I figured we just need to hash this out.

I'm also working on a big story about what the best music APP is because i'm sort of over a spotify and trying to find something else and finding something else is a chAllenge. So i'm hoping alison can help me talk to this one piece of IT and try to make sense of things that just get into IT. Elson, hello, hello.

I just tell everybody that I am interrupting a day off for you to do this. So I am everyone listening. Oh, you a great deal of gratitude.

I'm happy to be here. I get to talk to another adult before a little bit, before I go the children's museum.

So because i'm happy, happy to do IT. So very quick, I want to talk about A I D J S. But first I want to know of your theory of the case about spotify.

A I D J in particular. This is very clearly a thing you have been thinking about a lot and is a lot of interesting context. But you you've come to a conclusion about these .

things and I wanted know what that is. Yeah so spotify, like every other tech company with an APP, um has been shoving A I and to everything over the past year. And um the one that caught my eye recently is this A I D J which is not actually knew it's been around like a year, but it's just kind of popped up in my feet and I was like, sure, i'll try this weird thing and in right at the gate it's just so strange because IT IT talks you because hey alison love if they kind of launch into a like DJ spill about what they gna play um and then you know gets into the music and not surprisingly in anyway it's all stuff that I really like because what company has more idea about what music I like to listen to then spottier y yeah um I was just kind of like, what is this and I tried. I listen to, I like kept with IT for a day um and like often on throughout a week just to be like what is going on here.

But you don't like that you just described such a good what you this is why I think this is interest and why I want to talk about IT what you just said. I just onna say IT back to a you click on a thing that greeted you by name and then played a bunch of music in a role that you really like and this feels like a prop.

Terrible yeah no so here here's the thing um kind of the the flip side is that we have a local radio station in seattle um K X P that I i've listened to forever since before I moved seattle. Um IT is just kind of like a daily habit. It's on in the background all the time.

It's on in the car and I don't know if it's to see add thing or me thing or what IT is, but the arts mosses of like you you get you have these like pair social or relationships with the D S. That kind of start. You like having your favorite D J S.

And then the weird and the idol is like, i'll be out on the bike path and i'll see Kevin call going the other direction after his show. I'm like, oh, there they're real humans. They're out here just .

like we are. And I feel like in seattle, like a very muc town, that country .

is an like that. The whole rest of my background, I was like I got giving go coming on the way. So that's that's kind of like the background where I maybe I bring a little more skeptical ism to IT where i'm like, you know I to me and a radio DJ is like a real person and I have favorite radio D J S. In um yeah hearing hearing this which is just an of that just like maybe I was just not gonna like IT right out of the gate, but that's my bias I brought to IT, I guess. So this is .

part of why I wanted to talk about this because I think trying to figure out what feels wrong about the A I D J actually feels like a really useful sort of metaphor for all of A I. And I think this is a lot of what you are getting at in this piece. I think why struck me too? There's this question of, okay, is that a bad thing that IT is pretty much exclusively playing music? I definitely for sure i'm going to like, like for me.

I was asking to my DJ all morning and I mean, that is just down the middle, David. Bit right. One of there was this guy I found who was doing, like punk rock covers of old songs on tiktok.

And then I left you a bunch for stuff on spotify. And IT was just like, what if we just played mine of his songs in a row was great I mean, let's do IT yeah. And then there was a bunch of like, uh, 3 eighties pop music， which spotify, like you said, has immense knowledge of the fact that that is music I am always going like.

And so IT was like a no skipped play list for now and a half. And I got to the end and was like, was, did I did I get anything out of any of that? I could I tell you what song that played IT was just sort of music.

So there's the question like, is that the right thing? And then there's the question like, is this is this product even a good idea? And that that goes back to the like. It's it's a person, quote on quote, talking to you, quote on quote as IT goes. And there there is this thing about this.

This thing is obviously trying to seem like a person, 嗯， 哼。 And I think one of the things we're seeing about A I A lot is A I that is trying to seem like a person. And and I think in some ways, this is just the most sort of nakedly straight forward version of that. And IT rubs me the wrong way. Who and I can't figure out if it's just because it's not very good or if it's because it's the wrong idea.

Yeah IT is I mean, it's pretty convincing like IT just sounds like a person talking to you um and I think like I to me, I just feels like this is not somewhere I need A I like i'm good with spotify putting together a players for me you know I used the playlist feature, the AI players feature. I'm quite a bit where i'm like I want to hear up beat jazz. There can't be any lyrics because i'm writing a blog, you know and like it's bits out a playlist and it's great.

which is also A I by the way, is it's a different flavor of that is still very much A I .

and i'm totally good with that. I'm like do not try to insert a human into this interaction. You know it's it's a very like transactional like this is fine. Um so that's where where I think i'm just weird out by the DJ like we have you in D J. We have people if you wanted listen to the radio, you can do that like why who was asking for this if I put IT in the box of who was asking for this?

No, I I think that's totally right. And I think, uh, I made a lot of fun of apple music when apple music came out and they had, you know, beats one. And all of these celebrity driven radio stations essentially is I and my theory then was like, who wants this right? Like and I have a library full of infinite music. Why am I gonna spend two hours a week listening to like whatever john mayor feels like playing?

I was wrong about that um for I think exactly the reason you're describing there is a lot of time that I just want what I want right, which is like a giant library full of music and i'm going to go and i'm going to be like I would like to listen to the wicked soundtrack, please yeah go listen the wicked sound track that is Better than the radio ah and then there's all the way the other side there is the like just expand my brain a little right and I think that A I is not doing successfully yeah and and this goes back to the like is IT right to just play me songs that I like a bunch times in a row. I think that that is such an easy way if your goal is to just get people to keep listening, but IT doesn't feel good like in a way that you you talked about, you know some of the stuff you've got ten from K E X P is like meaningful stuff and you like remember the experience and IT feels cool and you feel like part of community. I don't think it's possible to get any that from the A I self. Yeah .

that's exactly yeah. And the the metaphor I ended on is like listening the K X P, sort of like a well rounded meal, like this stuff I really like, stuff i'm sort of into this stuff I just straight up do not like, but it's IT feels like a baLanced experience in the A I D J is just straight up feeding me like all the stuff I like like I love EMS I don't want to eat emms all day long, you know like you get a stomach eventually um that and that's just kind of how I feels to me and there is like yeah IT just a hit different there's like I hear um tears for fears come on in the grocery store and i'm like, well, they know that women in their late thirties is probably shopping is gone to love this in the right but then you know favorite D J plays IT on K X P because he really loves IT unlike this is it's just it's more meaningful I think yeah the .

one part of that I have trouble is is the is IT good to play me stuff that I hate side of things, right? Because I think and and you make this case a little a bit in your piece, I think it's been a thing for you of like the the percentage of things that I hear from these dies forever that I actively don't like.

Is good and important and yeah there's part of me this sort of intellectually understands that the part of me that's like, well, a that's the time when I turn off the radio, right? Yeah or be what if IT just only played things that I liked? And then i'm back to the A I D J thing that is like, again, you can see how you get there, right? If we just keep playing songs that you like, 就是 you won't turn the thing off。 And so what responsibility does IT have to just inject randomness into your life in even on the grand likelihood that you're going to hate IT? And in a weird way, I feel like this is something we're not dealing with at all in the rest of A I, but it's the kind of question we going to have to have all the time when we get two things like all of these sort of information retrieval services in the way that we think about generating images and texts. Should I write you .

a bad email one out of ten times? There's a weird like personalization echo chAmber. I think that you can get into and it's um I don't know maybe like those times when i'm like, yeah I wanna be in the echo chAmber of music, I like I don't feel like you know eating my vegetables today.

I just wanted hear the stuff I like but I think it's like that's probably different for every person and I think there's a different limit of like when do I feel like, okay, I should probably listen to something else like get get something else mixed in here and then I don't know. Then when I go back to listening to washed out or whatever i'm doing this like, that sounds great. Oh my god, I like this.

yeah. I like the emms analogy a lot, right? So I could have comfort food. But if you only eat comfort food, like comfort food is comfort food, because you don't eat IT all the time.

that is kind of the point exactly.

Do you think that something A I can get Better at like IT? Is there someone it's potito ed, who can tweak that algorithm to make that work?

I think IT, I mean, it's probably could, but it's, you know, someone commented on the article and IT really resonated with me that win a human place, something that you don't like. They like IT like they have a reason for playing IT. And you kind of like weight IT differently in your head and you kind of give him a chance maybe more than then if this robot, like, i'm like, more offended when the robot plays something I don't like, I like, excuse me, where did you come up with this?

That's so true. Yes, there's a sense of, like you, the robot should know yeah, yeah like you you dumb as spotify DJ yeah you know everything about what I like. Why are you playing me?

Get out of here with this. I tried to do that. There was, I turned IT on the other day, and I was like, here's some songs that are shaping rock music right now and I was like.

absolutely not.

I'm good. Just just play the stuff I wanna hear yeah.

IT is, I don't know. Again, I keep coming back to this question of, like, can we can Better ai get closer to these things? I think i'm just so suck in this question of like what is necessary for humans to do and and I think that the point our comments are making about having someone say that they like this to you is really powerful.

I mean, we talk people all the time about like recommendation systems and like we think about this, look like buying guides and all this stuff, right? right? Like someone you trust, liking something is an incredibly good predictor of whether you are going to like that thing because you're more likely to like that thing because you like the person who recommended IT like there. There is some wild human nature thing inside of that, that I think you just can't replicate with a computer. And that is true of like the netflix's alga and everything else, right? Even if IT puts the perfect thing at the top, i'm still probably more likely to like the thing that you hold me to watch than the thing that netflix b to watch even if statistically netflix is right you know yeah and uh so I wonder to understand if it's a matter of spotify and everyone else doing this kind of thing just totally barking up the wrong tree or if it's like maybe if the voice was ten percent more convincing, I wouldn't even know and I would start to feel like a person.

I feel like there's a you feel the intention behind IT a little bit like when I hear something on the radio and maybe something I don't like. Like the there's a person playing IT, it's their jo B2Create mus ic and and the y lik e IT. Um the intention behind the spotify A I D J is a little mercer where it's like I think you just want me to keep using spotify, you know or is like I just can't shake that feeling of like this is a this a robot.

It's a convincing robot. You are basically like the voice of, I don't know, a corporate entity like like that's not at the front of my mind when i'm listening to IT, but I think it's somewhere in the back where i'm sort of like I don't quite trust the intentions like when it's china introduced me to but what's coming next in rock music? And like, well, are they sponsored or are they just like did a human people like I I just don't know where it's coming from IT IT feels yeah IT feels marker.

I think yeah and then ironically, I think there are probably similar questions worth asking about a lot of radio. But IT feels even when it's not right. And I think that that thing is really important. And like for spotify, I think if you rewind a one two years, spotify and everybody else always talked about we need the sort of human computer combo to do this sufferer well.

And I think my experience at least, was there was a long time where spotify curated playlists, where where I did the vast majority of my listing yeah, and I IT was a mix of lake, no rap. Caviar was like the biggest playlist on planet earth. And IT was IT was a person.

They had a ton of machine help. They get all kinds of listing data, they get all kinds of flick know, quantity, ative and quality of data about the songs themselves. And but ultimately, they are putting the thing together.

And I feel like spotify, probably most of all, but to some extent, kind of all of these media services of any kind have just leaned further and further and further into the machine. And maybe the right answer is just like a human face on the machine, like dyna answer is they hire A D, J to just say the words to you, instead of shine saying the words to you. But IT IT does feel like that combination is being lost.

And I think part is I wanted to talk to you about this, is I am curious about your own music habits, because I was thinking about my own after reading your story. And I spend a shocking amount of my time in the, like, daily mixes. That part of fy does IT has like six of them.

One of mine is always country. One of mind is like movie soundtracks, which is awesome. IT rips, yeah.

But I spent a lot of time in those and that's A I there's no person involved in that, that is the computer curating music for me. But that's not like I get to the end of those play. And I couldn't tell you anything about them. There are just kind of the notes I have on on during the day yeah and reading your article, I like all I need to go back to listening to the radio in the car, just as like a new kind of sensory experience for music because I know all all music is background. Nice to me now in a way that I kind of hate and I think spotify .

has done that to me. Yeah yeah that's it's funny because I feel like that's a big reason why we all signed up for spotify was like, well, the algorithm is really good and you're going to find stuff that you actually like and that was like kind of a in a ground breaking concept at the time. And I I do find a lot of music I like through recommended stuff on spotify.

B A IT IT is a different like you you do get into the too many eminence situation at least idea pretty quickly um because I will just happily keep listening to my yeah eighties and fired beans and then um yeah IT IT IT feels good to like there's a couple of um D J I I like a lot N K E. I think one one of the things they do is play the songs that I didn't realize I wanted to hear in the feel kind of out of left field and there's like love the spotify algorithms, what IT does but then I do want IT is like gratifying. When I hear something i'm like, I had no idea that I needed.

Hear TV wonder, like as much as I did. And and you hear IT on the radios, like, that was perfect. I I fear IT IT just comes down to feeling like there is something there with A I and the spotted vize had a lot of success with that.

I think they're kind of leaning into that is getting to a point of lake. Well, yeah, the A I was good, but I didn't anna like talk to the A I like IT wasn't the A I that I was here for? I was here because the A I was helping me get a good music that I like. It's not the entity I want to be interacting with and I it's it's like such a Cindy moment right now where everybody's like, you know, you are a instagram. Like, do you want to interact with A I, no, when you, my friends are doing.

I know I I have come to the point where i'm like, I think we we need to get to the point where we think of A I like we think is, you know, T, C, P, I, P like crucial infrastructure to O, L. All of this works. And if IT works correctly, you should never ever, for one second have to think about IT, right? I I don't spend time thinking about packet loss on the internet anymore because IT works now, but that's not the point of any of IT.

All of that enables other stuff. And I I think right now we are we are at a moment where A I is like the main character and what what IT should be is like the camera. And yeah, it's I don't know the bad metaphor, but I am i'm totally with you. So now that you be messing with this way of music consumption, what do you feel like is the right answer? How are you going to do your own music to make sure you're getting the right kind of diet?

I feel like I have a pretty I mean, our r use case is kind of weird in that like I can't listen songs with lyrics during the day and when i'm writing. So the only way to the tracks is .

good the to the carribean and soundtracks like five years was at all.

I went to if everything I start writing sounds like super epic and like you'll know i've been putting .

on my part mean.

yeah yeah, I have like kind of my major for when i'm writing and working during the day. I think probably in there there's even a little room to experiment like i've listened the same like coffee table jazz play list probably one hundred times um but then yeah it's like when the working day is over, I kind of like I like having K X K on why i'm doing the dishes and why i'm in the car picking up my kid and um yeah IT doesn't feel is like I don't need everything to be a banger I don't know like maybe a different situations i'm a little more like, okay. I want to listen to whatever IT is that right now but sort of feel like a nice way to unplug from the day in here, a person here, some probably a lot sons all like.

yeah, I think there's something to the kind of an optimized ness of that, that is really are not encouraging and and compelling in a way that listening to a playlist of things that are sort of ruthlessly constructed for your oral pleasure like ah if you get just like, okay, this is these are great songs and i'm kind of over yeah but then the like the peaks and valleys of like, oh god, i'd love that song uh versus what is this trashed that they're playing for me for the next three minute? IT is is just so hard replicate.

And I think we're going to see a lot of companies and products tried to emulate that. 嗯， i'm not sure as possible. I just don't know if you can do that with computers in a way that people doing people things, yeah gonna keep working like that. So should everyone listen to K, X, P, like, is the move here, find your own local radios, or just get in the key experience, solve their problems?

I think IT is A K X P, S streaming worldwide online. I am not a paid spokesperson. We can actually get just not really like IT um but you know, I that was that really amazing thing about this comments on this article? People trimmin like, yeah, I have this station and and you shout out to the station in a Walker year wherever you are, they're out there. And I was really gratifying to hear that people have their favorite te the radio stations in um in our super optimized, super spotify time. So I was great to here .

yeah I will say the one of the thing I would add a in in terms of like places to go for this kind of thing is a youtube is a surprisingly rich place for people basically just doing radio. Like I think a lot of people know low fie girl and stuff like that， which is a thing I really like for sort of the the right vibe with new music.

Uh, I I use IT sort of as a mood setting thing, which I am very happy to outsource lake, I don't need to know what the song are called. I just want, I trust them to sort of make me feel the way that i'm looking for. But there are also lots of people out there doing really interesting mixes of like different kinds of genres and doing all kinds of really long radio D, J sets essentially.

And uh, there's tons of great radio to do there. But I also uh would encourage people to go poke around on the sort of and let's be streaming youtube stations yeah because there's there's some very cool stuff out there. Yeah, I think we we all need a little more of that like weird random discovery in .

our lives is good. Eat your vegetables.

don't need them in himself. As much as I hate to say john mayers apple music radiation is very good. It's very good. It's like I I like john mayor a lot against my will, but here we are. This is just what happened.

is a good musician. It's is like underived however you feel about him. Yeah.

yeah. exactly. This is what I ve right. Give us some music recommendation, then will let you leave while we're telling people to listen.

what everybody to go listen to. Oh um I just heard oh studio archives. I've saw her festival I here on K X V all the time she's since and eighty girl like I am checkout. I I love everything she's doing.

love that um I have been listening the casey musgraves non stop for like two weeks. So it's probably good for me to go and great wait up Alice and go have one of children to you. Thank you always.

thanks. right? We're going to take one more break and then we're going to come back and take a question from the verge. Test line will be right back.

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All right, look back. Let's go to the line. As always, the number is eight, six, six. Verge one one. The email is verge casted the verge a com. We love all of your questions, and we try to answer at least one on the show every week. Thank you.

To everybody who has reached out with thought about how we should be covering politics and the next trumpet administration and just the next four years of life in america, we've a lot to think about. It's been really great to hear your thoughts on what you do and don't want us to talk about and do and don't care about yourselves and how we is the verge can make this stuff make sense, both kind of in our world, but in a brother world. Thank you everybody.

He's reached out, but this week we do not have a question about that. We have a question about one of the true central tenants of the verge cast. And that is the freedom. T V.

Tired IT is people from north CarOlina. A I need to midnight on the frame TV. I'm probably not a Normal TV buyer in that. I'm almost forty and i've never lost A T V.

The only reason in the market now is that we had to be common weather out here recently and are old TV that was going on. My twenty years old, I got a piece of window throw IT. So what i'm looking at is the only place our house for TV as the main room, a fundamental place.

It's pretty central. And a happy idea of having a big M V black void staring at the room, especially that are kids there demand that some sort of cartoon is played on IT. It's also well used to be next to a big window, uh, that is getting repared and so IT get a lot of light.

And between that IT kind of seemed like the frame TV or something like this would be a good fit. Um so that is not getting too much clear. And when it's off, it's not just begging for something to be turned on.

Um so that being said, I see fifty fifty five inch tvs on best by uh for like two hundred and three hundred dollars while the frame TV is over thousand. Can I justify paying that much for something that hopefully will look nice? Uh is that a good trade off? Is the fine TV actually what I want in middle of my main room?

Um that would be looking at all the time. I would love any advice to give me, thanks. But when .

someone asked the question, is the frame TV actually what I want? There is only one person to bring in. And I tell, hi.

i'm just going to answer that question with a statement, which is that hollywood is doomed embedded in that question, if you listen to me carefully, is the complete destruction of the film. And T.

V industry, as we know.

IT similar. P you don't want A T V year, forty years old. You've gone your entire life without purchasing A T, V, and yours got broken. And you, like, I should have a TV in this space because you think you need A T, V. And maybe you watch IT sometimes and you don't want your kids to watch cartoons in the T, V.

So you're gonna buy something else out of obligation to cultural norms, and you're actively looking to spend money on a TV whose picture quality sucks to prioritize how IT looks when it's turned off. IT is just a little. It's a little hop from there to not having A T.

V. I don't know. I more clearly, I can say this, hollywood is doomed. People don't want to watch the TV. They want to watch tiktok.

I mean, IT is IT is true in a way that I had never really thought about until you said that that you are just assumed to have a television like we want a lot of H, G, T, V in our house. And one of the things that drives me the most crazy is whenever they stage the houses at the end, they're always beautiful and perfect and well set up. And you always there are go, where's the T, V going to go? They're to have to flip all this problem because they are going to have to A T V, because you have to have A T V.

The fact that people will spend money, I will answer the actual question of the front T, V. But i'm just embedded in this question in this thought process is the end of the assumption that everyone's gona watch T V. I won't to break that assumption. Everything goes to help.

The description is kind of I have a space on a wall where i'm supposed to put A T V, not I want A T V. That is kind of the premise of this question. You're right.

yeah. Put up, hang up a picture.

What if you bought a thousand dol TV that you hang up all the pictures?

Can I maybe actually, and you should spend the money on that, right? But if what you want is to sometimes watch T, V, you should spend two hundred dollars in a fifty five minutes T. V, and put IT on a roll stand and roll IT in the garage, and then roll IT back out.

You want to watch TV like. And you will quickly find that maybe you never wanted to watch T V at all. And I I just I was a person who has giant, expensive TV and wants to watch movies on them.

I every single day think, boy, the T V is off most of the time, like we don't have IT on all the time. I have friends and family that keep their tvs on twenty four, seven fun. That's another way to go.

But IT doesn't sound like that's what pete wanted in the reason i'm always ranting and raving at the frame TV is at the TV of IT is pretty compromised, right? It's it's a very old panel that doesn't have local liming back light in some samsung latest lc attack. IT doesn't have dolby vision, which is a sense of choice.

You prestin but sorry, right? Like it's it's all this stuff. Uh, but IT has the match finnish and IT has the art store and you can put a frame on IT and you can hang you on the wall and people prioritize how looks way over with the picture quality or the how the T V of IT works.

And that's and that's fine. I'm just saying it's just a short hub to the next thing. So what I recommend is you really feel like you need to have a max in H.

T. V. Shown a picture. There are now much cheaper rifts on a frame TV from a bunch of companies.

TCL has one, hyste e has one, right? Everyone knows this is the market. I think the Prices will come down. The frame TV itself is whatever like the art store sending.

Is that a great job with the art store? They have spent a lot of time and energy making the deals and getting the licenses. But are you going to pay fifty dollars among the store? If you're not, then you just get another maps in H, T, V, that can be framed of which another are several, and put up a picture or something.

Yeah, I radically pete, I think is coming into this thinking. He's kind of like really trying to decide which is the best T V to buy, which I would make him me like people he's actually my people. He's like I don't care about my T V.

I just need to have one right? Like I think if you're starting from the twenty year old T V freely, the frame T V is public great. The twenty year old panel you had a role.

It's probably a big upgrade to even the frame TV. But I do think you're right that clearly the the goal is not I want the best television is at the frame TV. Like I don't think anyone is arguing that it's that and that's not what people once either.

If you want to find a thousand dollars on A T V S on create, you should buy a fifty five. And I think .

if the question is like, how do I solve this specific problem that I have? IT seems like the cheapest riff on the frame. TV is probably what .

you're after or get a what's same sung is TV of these. S so I get that. L, G success. T, V, i'm not kidding.

You don't want that might be the IT, right? T, V, the that goes in a suitcase and put IT on the kitchen table once a month when you want to watch a movie. Yeah, there there are just many, many more ways to solve the problem of. Sometimes we all want to sit on the stream, get a projector and think of a bed sheet.

I had the projector thought, but I think the place that sits in p house, where it's like a space to ts, a lot of light and kind of that might be that might undo the projector. But but I think the the T, V, you can put away theory here in some way is actually maybe the solution.

Yeah, I looked at up through out when I told that the L, G. Stand by me. go. Uh, it's a twenty seven TV. It's know one of those like James born and brief cases it's expensive IT lists IT over a thousand, I bet on black friday IT gets .

really cheap.

Buy a smart monitor. I ve had forty eight samsung smart monitor that I bought for three hundred dollars through that in a closer like i'm just saying, there are many, many more ways to solve this problem or by A G pram TV. But I i've just every time I get this question now, I hear from people who are like, I want to see the that looks good, mounts off and i'm constantly contracted. IT is just a tiny jump to, I don't need this at all.

right? I mean, anything, remember that CS a few years ago where L G. Had that rollable T, V. That you like pulled up out of the case, like that's the kind of thing we all need, is like I just I want to be able to hide that behind a bunch of books and then pull IT out unroll and watch a movie and then put IT away. And I think like that this sort of thing that would be great.

And I think the thing about this question I can thinking about this is if I put this T V here, my kids will want something on IT. And like, i'm sure you feel that would like, oh, god, do I feel that I would love to be able to I hide the remote now, because if you can find the remote, i'm like, I sorry, can't find the remote, but he he goes that he just points at the T. V, which is at his high level. I put IT on and IT would be like, there is more and more appeal to putting the TV away than ever.

For me, it's all, it's all fun and games. And the ipad, the problem instantly resolves the second the ipad or the chrome book is delivered, right? For Better and for worse, even things that i've tried to turn into, like this is A T V thing. The eras tour, we gonna watch us on the T V. SHE instantly figured out how to get IT on the plus right.

Everything moved yesterday, walked into our kitchen, and he was listening to music on her ipad speakers in a house where he is surrounded by speakers can just speak into the void to ask a music service to start playing a and knows how to use their play. I've taught my sexual how user play, still linking music. what? Yes, I bw a whole .

zona system, and my wife flein the podcasts out of the speaker and IT will never, ever stop .

making me crazy. Fits your budget, but most people just five, five size. All T V are right. Uh, i'm I call up casey noon here. Casey asked me A, T, V to buy, and I told him, and then he bought a frame T, V, and I said the picture and he was like, it's so bright and that was .

the end of that conversation.

Yeah and faces is also my people when IT comes to we're talking about this in early november, so we're just a few days away from black friday. So the Frank, we will go on huge sale always that uh, last year's frame TV, which is fine there samsunspor. Ds, no money developing this the same T V every year and I just collect huge margins on them.

Uh, last year you will go even deepa sale. And then you've got the new class of competitors, right? You've got the high sense canvas T V, the T C L N X T frame T, V, the extreme T, V. Amazon has the the fire T V omi, which has adaptive brightness in the art. There's just a lot of these and you're all gonna on sale like friday um and it's it's worth just looking at them and thinking, will this solve my problem .

with it's there that's the problem. Yeah I just looked that up, by the way, of fifty five inch on net v currently on sale for three hundred and sixty nine dollars like this is, this is a cheaper problem to solve. A thousand dollar frame.

T, V. However you choose to solve that you can do IT for less than a thousand dollar frame. T, V, I feel pretty good about that.

Then i'm a hundred percent confident that there will be even .

Better on friday. Ah, there are just some, right? I hope this helps.

Pete, let us know what you ended up doing and send us pictures if you're set up. Very curious me, thank you is good dad to me. All right? That is that for the verge cast today. Thank you to everyone who came on the show and thank you is always full listening.

There's lots more on everything we talked about at the verge 点 com。 These review of the eight sleep thing is great alson story about A I D J, all of our many, many, too many Frankly, stories about frame tvs, all of IT on the website. I'll put some link to the shows.

As always, read the vertit com. It's good website. I like IT. And as always, if you thoughts, questions, feelings or other televisions that you'd like to spend too much money on, you can always email us at verge cast at the version t. Com, or like I called the line eight six, six.

First one one we love hearing from you the slack room that all the questions get pumped into his bump in in my friends. It's great times in there. Thank you to everybody who calls and thank you everybody who else.

This show is produced by liam James wilpon and intercoms verdict is a verge production and part of the box media podcast network. neyland. I'll be back on friday to talk about all the A I knew some more mac stuff, just a whole. I go on on right now. We'll see you then.

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