Bluesky's quest to be the next Twitter
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How I work in the vercheres, the flagship podcast of six and world habet. So that really wants .

do we have to be I don't like that .

pretty fish from what I gather. This is the product. It's gona set the tech ministry on fire to going to happen to IT. sure.

Listen, if it'll make you shut up about your garage door, i'll take IT.

Oh no. Where there's me some some grass talk in the show. Hi my friend David pears, this here.

Hello little later kind of rob, talk about what are not a is real where there's just a fake idea divert. There's a lot of new time. Well, this week IT is weak negative eight of the trumpet administration is I have account. That's how George washington yeah that seems right.

That's in the constitute as he was in a boat he was like, this is weak negative six and then.

yeah uh, elan is already do. Instead, there's a fake department of government efficiency that we should talk about, uh, for as much as we need to talk about IT, there's a fake wireless career called boost noble that we should talk about that i'm excited.

talk about it's a real area deline.

There are rumors that apples we make a world type ts are going to talk about a grass drop as promise. But let's start with what's happening on social media. We've talked a lot about the federal s on the show about the idea of the open social web that maybe you weren't going to walked into one platform you can move around that's mastered on.

There's a protocol comic activity public that we've talked about a lot threads from meta is using activity pub, the very slowly interest way to support people have a lot of issues with threats overall because its moderation. And then this week after election, after elon has basically turned the x algorithm to being a pure flood of propaganda for himself, not even I would take conservative ideas just for you on musk. Uh, people are fleeing x there out there.

Huge drop in users. And they are not going to threads. And as they are going to blue sky, which is a different federated social platform, that is, is a different protocol called at protocol A T.

protocol. I've talked to the blue sky C O J grabber on the coder, we can get into the weeds of IT, but IT seems like that is the winner in social media this week. David, what you think is gone on here .

is IT the winner? This is such an interesting question because this week, yes, I IT is the vibes winner in a very real way. And I think the thing that we've discovered over the two years since on moscow twitter is that the vibe shift really matters.

And uh, I think your diagnosis is exactly right, right? Like threads was the thing. Threats probably still is the thing and we should talk about that.

But uh, threads has two hundred and seventy five million users that so where xc I announced they're standing up a million people a day like that, that thing is growing like a week. There's been some news that threads is gonna turn on ads next year between it's going to be a big scale business. Uh, all anyone wants to talk about right now is blue sky.

And I think blue sky has hit something like mainstream critical mass, uh, which I think is a really exciting be really annoying in some ways that we should talk about and see really surprising. I think if i'm being completely be honest, I kind of left blue sky for dead a while ago. IT had its first Spike.

People were really excited. I think blue guy has done a lot of things really right in how to build this kind of thing that was very smart about how to think about identity. IT was very smart and thinking about discovery.

They go products, products like list and messages and like as a as a platform, blue sky is dramatically Better than any of the other competitors right now. But he was weird. And that was, like all the people who went to blue sky at the beginning went to be weird on purpose.

And that is like, fine and good as far as IT goes, right? And so my thinking was there is going to be the subset of people like the the twitter ship posters who are going to be very happy on blue guy, and we're just going to hanging out with each other over there. And I got out of that this week are now in a moment where people who don't want any part of that are coming onto blue sky.

People are coming back to blue sky. A O, C. Came back to blue sky and calls like a mini uproar when he started posting there.

Again, everybody is trying to make something happen again instead of posting like blue guy is is I think by far like an order of magnitude out of the actual competitor to threats world right now. But in terms of like who has the juice, I think this guy legitimately has the juice at this point. Yeah.

two things about this that I think are really important. One threads is an old orthon c platform. And so is x.

Now, yeah, you open X, I open my x account. And IT is just the algorithm feeding me whatever elan must wants me to see, which is mostly himself. Yeah, weird.

And I think people are just reacting to that and reacting to that poison. IT is a right way. Echo chAmber IT is impossible to participate there unless you say exactly what that audience wants to hear.

That's bad. Like that's algorithmic collapses. real. I don't think anybody wants to be an ego chAmber that powerful than any way.

shape or form. Some people do. I mean to be blind. Some people do.

And that's fine, right? But IT is like the distance between x and like truth, social and rumble is smaller and smaller every day. yeah.

And there is a community of people who is well served by that. great. But IT is like if that platform has run away from anything like mainstream appeal, like actively running away from IT.

yes. And and we should talk about the extreme hypocrisy, real mask in general, who was like, i'm a free speed warrior and then slowly closed the boundary of speech on x to be exactly what he wants yeah. The point of making is threads is also an algorithm platform.

You open IT and you see a fire hose of whatever metta wants you to see, which is the most in an engagement rate that is ever induced, right? Like and it's so not a you opening. Like what is happening here? What am I seeing? And yes, there's a reverse cron feed that you can like sight over two, but it's not fault if you do set IT, they'll drop you back into the outgrew feeding a moments notice.

And really, you just get to a place where they're not platforms that replay twitter. They don't serve the same role. They're not doing the same job threads. I think intentionally, they've talked to about what how they don't want you to be that X I think intentionally another way, which is he just broke IT. You know, I took the thing in use IT for some .

purposes super successfully, by the way, I did to briefly give credit where credit is due like I I got a bunch craft from people after the election because we've we've said many times have stupid a purchasing decision to IT. IT was uh which I would also remind you, elan mask also agrees with that fact. You tried very hard to not purchase IT, but like in a in a certain way of thinking about IT boy was buying twitter. A good move for you on musk is now just the shadow president, the united states.

I totally think that's debated. And then he spent a lot of money and he got a bunch of votes, and he did montreal ales, and he gave a million dollars to sign people to a petition that have been conto. Who knows the i'm going to make the x algorithm just do whatever I want debate. And I think I don't know that the average swing voter got swayed by the amount of garage on no.

but he's now the second most powerful person in america.

right? But did x make him that? Or did his money spent like literally handing like I don't know the same point. yeah. But the point the broader point of making the second part is these are now create platforms that what they are, they are closed in, insanely closed.

X will d ranker post if you put links in them so well, thread because their algorithms, their designed to promote engagement on the platform themselves. So they are just very closed, their their little wall gardens that is going to be in. And even if threads finishes its activity, public migration, even if IT all works out the way that I I would very much want IT to work out. It's so close like it's designed to be a close ecosystem.

And I think crucial that, that thing has kind of qualified since really the last time we talked about this, right, like threads has now been telling us what threats is for long enough that the smart thing to do is just believe IT, right? Everybody is after being like atomic sy, please, dear god, let me just see the reverse crown of all the people I follow.

If if adam mercy and mark archer g and the threats team wanted to do that, they would have this. This is where we are. The thing you're describing is what threats is going to be for the foreseeable future.

And I think to me, that is what is underlying a lot of this is there is this sense of like threats was new and IT was early and we are not sure what I was going to be. And they seem to have these big, interesting, ambitious goals. None of that counts in his favorite ite anymore, like threats and threats now. And we should take .

the thing for what he is. W how gross, right? Grow in some rate. But IT is very much meant to be a creator platform.

And and I think that's how are going to think about IT blue sky for whatever IT will become is way waler. As you noted, David, is fifteen million users just today is we're talking, but it's designed to be an open platform. Links are not suppressed.

The algorithm IT is leading you towards uh ref ground feds. By default, there are algorithms you can get that sort the firehose in different ways. That's a part of their monetization strategy is actually to sell you algorithms, which is like fascinating yes, the moderation is composer so you can tell me how you want to moderate the feds.

The protocol, I think, is one here. right? There isn't another blue guy, right? right? So everything is happening on one server.

You can have to set your own domain names. You can like, make you feel a little bit different. But eventually, when there is one, the idea of following someone from another server is not as political as IT is.

I masted on like you're not getting if this like server Y Y block list, like it's just not. How IT works, right? All the federation is at the user level.

So I feel like I don't like this blue dress server that i'm on. I can take my whole account and take IT to another server because that's the the the element that is moderated is the user account. Where's on activity problem in mass, on whatever else? The thing that is federated is the servers, right? So like if the verge not wasted on existed, that would be that the thing that is federated and you could be like, I hate, you know, I am like leave and got to messed on dog come or whatever on blue sky it's your account is the thing that moves all right? And you can take that from server to serve IT will kind of yeah .

and I think that's the thing is blue. I like, I got a lot right, but I think that is the thing I got most right, and I think is the thing that is proving to be the hardest about the feathers and and this kind of whole universe. Nobody can figure out who you are like in a in a sort of meaningful way, like what is my user name and identity and profile is actually like a crucially important part of this entire system.

And IT is the most complicated thing going in activity of mon and blue guy. IT is like central, and they have done a one, a smart staff. And like your your user name is also just A U R L.

You can just typed your user name in to bar, and IT will load up your profile. Like that is powerful. And I think this is a big win.

Like you said, blue sky, I desperately needs the second thing because IT is IT is currently IT is exactly as open as facebook. IT has a bunch of big ideas about being open. And IT just isn't right now, and they've gotta build the next thing. But I, I, I, I big part of this on esty is I I believe blue sky is telling the truth much more than I believe threads is telling the truth about where they .

want to go yeah and I am a sary again, very direct. We don't want to do news. It's more trouble than it's worth.

Yeah okay, well, you have an x in this election. You had an x platform that was explicit, showcasing one view of amErica explicitly in the tank for one candidate. yes.

And then the alternative was nothing right. The alternative platform and in that style of social media, as we don't want this year. And that's a weird imbaLance, right? So all the people who are leaving x are going to platform that stuff is not there.

The way that I was in the other platform, certainly not is over. And I think now what you're getting is okay. That didn't work either.

And I think now what you're getting is a bunch people saying what didn't fill, right? Let's go to the platform. We can make IT what we want right in lue guy literally has the tools built into IT to make IT what you want.

The APP are there. The available just the firehose of posts is there, and people can build tools. There is already a blue duck.

Blue, I think it's called, is the tweet deck for blue sky. Is the guard exists, is there is. So there's something really interesting happening here. We have kind of A A V H S beta situation inside of federated social media, open social media.

But a lot of the fine people that I talk to like this isn't onna matter at the end of the day, because there are software that bridges between all these things in actually, the best outcome is for Mason and blue guy and threats and whatever else part of the set of verse ghost to all just be able to talk to each other and the protocol shouldn't matter. response. I don't know to forget that.

I think that's a long way away. I think people are still trying to make their specific protocols work. And he got to make technology bets.

So you got to start with something. But I can see a future where yeah actually everything does work together way Better. And if you what you want to do is pick the creator platform, you can go pick the creator platform. But if what you want is the more open, here's what we share a bunch of links and talk about the platform that is also available.

Yeah, I think the outcome you are describing, I think is pretty clearly the best version of this story. And IT was always going to take a long time, right? Like we've been talking a lot about the federal s and activity pub for the last couple of years.

And I reach the point where I am sorry, chief, that IT hasn't happened yet and it's like OK, maybe this just isn't going to and it's like, okay, everything I talk to people they like everyone who works on this has been working on this longer than you realized and is on is aware of the fact that this is going to take a lot of time, right? So it's none of this gets built in a day. I also think these things are in some ways getting further apart.

And that's the part that gets problem that a great like every day threats doesn't build out really strong activity. Pop immigration IT gets harder to build, really a strong activity of migration. And every day, threads gets more successful.

Building that stuff well becomes less and less compelling. right? Threads as a powerful closed creator platform could be very successful. IT is already very successful.

It's just like there comes a time when being a good story of an open ecosystem is not as exciting as IT once was when you were tiny, tiny and kind of needed ecosystem. Uh, I still believe the people who work there are serious when they say they want to do that. But uh, that doesn't get you very far.

Let me make the defensive threads team not meet. But as specifically that the chAllenge facing the threats s teacher, because I I think they've done something here that is smart, interesting, at least potentially smart. If you look at blue sky, they build all their features, and they have struggled to scale them to even fifty nine users, which is why they had invites to the beginning, which is why they, they think, called the health read.

All you could see was one instant thread that was going crazy everyday. But they built the complete product and ate scale bit and and that's how most people build things. The threads team is taking a proactiv ity pub where they're adding one piece of federation at scale immediately, right? So they're like, okay, you can now see who follows you in the festivals, all two hundred and five million you can see at scale IT works.

Okay, now we're going to let you see who liked IT. We're not going to you reply IT. Now we're going to let the next thing happen.

And they're adding like one piece of stack at the scale of the whole platform, which is just a different way of going about IT. But the fact that the loops haven't closed yet, I think, is what's striving everybody crazy, right? I agree.

Someone replies to have an effect version. You can write back to them. It's like.

what is the point of this, right? That's actually like an actively bad experience. If you're someone who is paying attention to protocol development, that is like exciting. But the thing where somebody replied me, this is what I mean, right? But it's like what IT actually looks like as a user is I see a thing that asks me periodical if I want to keep sharing to the feed of verse, that I have to figure out what that means and decide.

And then I get a bunch of people who are like concern trolling me and to sharing to the feed diverse and people reply to me, but I can't reply to them. And if I like what they reply to you, they don't see IT like it's bad product until IT works. And I think the longer IT goes being bad products, the less compelling IT becomes kind of to everybody involved.

I'm so very hopeful and I do still think it's the right answer, but I I worry increasingly like the reason I think this blue getting has been such good news is I think threads really didn't seem like IT was gonna have meaningful competition there for a while. And I think the idea that blue sky, even if IT doesn't like federate in the way that we want, even if IT doesn't become this sort of big, beautiful, open thing like competition is good. And the idea that threads was just going to sort of walk away with this because we all wanted some other place to post text was bad.

And so unlike I am all for competition even if the right answer is like, what do j call your interviews a competition and CoOperation petition competition? Yeah, it's good. That's what we .

should root for. We should take a break.

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Or back if I was starting the verge cold today, you ready see IT in our design, what I wanted to be.

But if I was starting IT cold today, the open source licenses of these various platforms aside, because are complicated, I would be like we're starting a server and you can follow our feds like i'm just going to post all day and my server and we will have some ads on IT or whatever yeah and if you want to follow my post, you can follow them, but we're going to owe this and we're going na curate a bunch of stuff from these other places using activity. Pub s, if you want to see the best of what we're looking at, you can see that here. You can already see what we're doing with quick.

We've talked about federating our site quite a bit, but you you can add all these ideas together, right? right? Version listeners, just smart. You can see what i'm trying to do here.

Yeah, it's harder when you have a giant website with thirteen years of archives and static site C, S, S, features the animate and blow your family role, to be honest. Yeah, similar old ones were a like, the technology is not ready IT. We have a big art head we've got to do with.

But if I was starting one today, I would like the thing to do is lean into federate a distribution into actually own your own distribution, not be like i'm going to start a website and make seo content for the google robot or i'm going to started a youtube channel and eventually get buffeted around by this algorithm til I have to make a video about how that I am at youtube, which that everyone does that when you get your wings. Uh, it's actually lean into the next phase of what the internet looks like and that's White. Like which of these protocols is gonna win? Because I don't I think there's a bunch of businesses.

They are sort like waiting to start once. It's clear like how to do IT, but nobody knows yet. Like there is just a bunch of this foundational work that is still just inching towards the finish line.

Yeah one is where because I think we're the moment now where at a protocol level activity of is where I had, right, just in terms of sort of adoption and belief, IT is the one that everybody who is making bets is betting on at this moment. A but in terms of actual places, people are blue. Sky is winning ah like I think IT is IT.

IT is going to keep growing like this because IT made the bed that what people want is twitter minus the mess. And I think earthly, one of the things that I have come to feel over the last couple of years is like twitter was a disaster of a company run poorly in so many ways and also was kind of like a magical thing that really accomplished a lot of goals that are hard to accomplish in one place. And we're seeing that now, right?

Like what what all of these company is are doing is sort of pulling pieces of part of twitter and doing one or two of those things. Well um no one is trying to do full twitter and Frankly, you probably shouldn't like was twitter good for the world, who knows? But the thing where IT was like a place to hang with your friends and also a place to discover creators, but also a place to get like government information at an incredible speed is like twitter. Up was central in our culture in a way that I think we still kind of under rate now. And nothing out there is even close to getting to that.

But to be clear, this is what i'm saying that would be Better if that was reconstructed. But actually, the government agencies owned their own servers. So the next time a billion or shows up and brakes IT, we're not like where I get earthquake information from, right? Like that's a real thing that is occur red in the past several years yeah right.

The next time someone shows up in brakes IT, we're not like where will independent creators post their apologies, which is A A real question that was asked this week. It's just a lot of that. It's like ah we should actually just own our own tools, like in a meaningful way, we should own our own tools.

And I know i'm always ranting raving at this because we have on website last website earth not but I you look at the who gets to control speech in america, it's like three guys yeah like the end of the day, it's not the government that's bad. It's like three guys and they can come and go like very clearly, they can come and go. I think one of the miracles of twitter and people, can you are free to disagree with me about this, but by and large, they got the baLance of moderation correct?

Yeah, I agree that .

that platform was lively IT IT. Everybody was mad IT like sort of exactly the right volume. Jack dorsey was bizarre, the sort of right personality to go sit front of congress and just accept blame with a beard and kit.

never.

I want to be clear. I agree with you. I suck like I don't. I sad that I did this. The Marks like to twitter as a clam part fell to a gold mine, and they've ve dismantled that. And we've turned the jobs of moderation in algorithms.

And you can just see, okay, this is a thing that can happen right in in america, the least for the next eight weeks of the first amendment that prevents the government from passing content. Moderation rules the what the government level set. So you, what you need is competition.

I'm actually, we should not talk about trump too much at all bit. I'm confident the next charge of the S. C, C is my branding car. Brand car does not think the the first time should keep the S, C, C out of contemporary. It's like a real thing that he talked about yeah uh, and if he becomes the chairman and we will talk about him a lot so I set at a site, but up up until now, the who gets to make the rules about what you see is guys yeah mostly just guys just and that yeah and i'm hopefully this moment where people are like, screw we've a blue sky it's fun here points to a future where if not, the protocols push people towards the Better outcome. The fact that everybody can still vote with their attention points to the Better outcome.

Yeah, I agree.

like twitter ism, not like yuan's mistake. Or twitter has always been believing its monopoly. And I think right now, you can just like the numbers, uh, people are leaving twitter to join blue sky and like that means it's time an open.

Yeah I I tend to think all of this is going to be a blip in the direction of something else, right? And it's like the what what we've learned so far is that, uh, leaving twitter is harder for a lot of people than we think. Uh, everybody who goes to a new platform loves to talk about the new platform. And then once the novelty of the thing dies down, it's very hard to know what to do, right? Like I feel to something that we have the same feelings about masted on in the early days and I was like, maybe this is the thing it's IT has different values IT I want to be clear.

I never had a feel now one thousand percent ever had that feeling .

the next one. Then why do you have .

IT about blue sky? I think, do you know that to see the jobs quote about microsoft taste, I hope. Listen someone talking. There is a very famous Steve job. Y, it's like Young Steve jobs in his world in school after fire from apple is at next.

And he was a little more bond asked and usual, because just constant try to solve the next thing and proving soft what I contextualized. They asked microsoft and he said, the problem microsoft is that they have no taste and military police for themselves. And he said, I don't mean that in a small way.

I mean that in a big way, right? They just the company doesn't have taste IT doesn't have a sense of what he is doing and how I should feel yeah and I always taught the massed on lacks that particular kind of taste like a software threads has no taste in a big way. I'd like the people who are making.

I've talked to them theyve shown up at verge parties. We throw a funeral for twitter team was there was a great, they're cool as a company. Meat does not have taste. There's a reason mark OK is like wear in roman d found some shirts and signing deals with the raybin because they need to buy taste to they to demonstrate taste because IT does not exist in our products.

They've also decided several times that having taste is dangerous. And the only way to get as biggest matter has gotten is to not have taste like IT. They made a business decision to not have any taste.

I chAllenge anyone to open the facebook APP and be like eye sense taste here.

right?

Blue sky largely is a clone of twitter. I am not, i'm not computing taste onto that. Twitter had, like twitter of famous designers, like important parts of culture, came out of the user base of twitter, filtered through twitter designers and product people, then out into the world, right? The at mention, the hashi, like all the stuff, is stuff twitter took for its community protect zed, put designers around and then gave the world pull to refresh was a third party ah twitter twitter and they are signed a patent pledge that anybody could use IT. So we have a patent on them but that they won't use IT.

But that is like part of the culture now like pull refresh ers, like an at mechanic yeah this is actually, if you like, spend a lot of time talking about IT has a lot to an entire culture um blue sky is design n as a lot of copies but that you can see IT in the people who are making IT. They have taste to have a very clear sense, but what the product should be and how to make people feel. And that is why they talk about composer moderation.

That's why why jays go to response what you to ask her about. What does that mean is I have a custom feed that just shows me moss, my kinds of moss, that I like like there are weirdos and posters, and I think that's why they attracted adventure weirdos and posters. I think that's why they, i've lead into being weirdos and posters in my having that community there.

I think that's White. A culture has been built like slowly in a way that cultures and preference built. I don't know any of that would be successful. But when you ask that what's the difference? It's I just think about that quote, it's like other they don't have taste and I mean that in a big way yeah.

I know I I I agree with that in large ways. I think the chAllenge there is like, do you know the ninety nine one rule? Uh, this is I don't I don't know where I came from, but it's not like a truism of all sort of social posting the platforms that ninety percent of people are the audience, right?

They never post. They never do anything. They're just there to look. Nine percent of people are kind of light into actors. They might post a little bit, they like things theyve replied to things, whatever. But they are, they're sort of around and making their presence known.

And then one percent of people do the vast majority of the things that the other ninety nine percent of people are, therefore, uh, the problem I think we have right now is that blue sky is doing a really good job of appealing to that one percent. Uh, like the the people or maybe it's the nine percent. I don't know the people who like live to post love blue sky and blue sky is built for those people, and IT is fun and IT is exciting and the vibes are good and you want to participate.

But that that is a small percentage of the thing. The ninety percent is who met a build for Better than any other company on planet earth, right? Like that is what has made instagram successful.

That is what has made facebook successful. The metal bills platforms that you come to and do nothing, but you come to them over and over and over and over again. And so you look at ads and so matter makes a ton of money.

But that's why meta, I have to go to weird already mac fizzy open instagram, and none of your friends are there anymore. And it's just creators bootlegging video clipsed of eighty movies.

right? But so this is the thing, right? Can you can you build a place that is both fun to post and full of good stuff every time you open the APP? I'm honestly not sure that IT is.

And I think again, we go back to like magic of twitter. Twitter at its peak did both of those things. You you could have a twitter experience that felt like lively and real time and interactive and exciting, and you could also show up and sea what the rock was talking about. Like we none of these things that we have now do both of those things. None of them aren't at any point.

if few things, things are just because another vercheres listers are screaming in their cars, weaving all over the road. One, any criticism of iran's handling of twitter is not praise for the previous administration by large. The bad job, car gold mine, right? So too, they never made any money, even though they had whatever successes or describing. And three, the service at its peak was like three hundred thousand million users.

Yeah, but IT was the single most cable news with people reading tweets like, yeah, I just was like, there there was a decade in our culture that was mediated by twitter in a very, very real way, that if you wanted to share information with a lot of people, no matter who you were, a famous person, a government, a company human on twitter, you just did. And that is still true because the vestiges of that are still so powerful and nothing coming up now looks like IT has a chance to replace that. yeah.

And I don't think I should that I just going to keep coming back to that. I think you would be Better if we all owned our own distribution or we built a distribution that worked, allow people to come and go more freely. That's what the web is until google search became the hedge, ammon.

It's made the web look exactly how what's gonna like. That's the web. That's our I think we're on the consumer doing IT. It's podcast, but I said is in we've made IT .

this far and I haven't brought a google reader yet. And so I bound .

this now we can just reach some user numbers before we go.

I went and pulled the user numbers for all of these life forms and I just found them fascinating. And I just wanted read them all out loud because it's it's useful context for everything we ve talked about. So uh threads, as we mentioned, uh, as of october thirty oh, when matter reported earnings has two hundred and seventy five million active users. What that means is always hard to know how companies measure these things is different across the board and always but that's somewhere they reported uh, and they're getting a million signup S A day blue sky uh today wednesday as a recording this past fifteen million total users.

Uh and I yesterday on tuesday at twelve had seven hundred and ninety eight thousand one hundred and forty two unique posters, which is people who actually posted the thing, which I love as a metric and I think everyone should do IT uh and nine hundred and ninety thousand four hundred and sixty four unique like us so that's a decent like baLance of who's here and who's doing self master on this is the one that really surprised me uh and why I wanted to do this has nine million thirty four thousand, seven hundred and fifty three total users as of today, eight hundred and eighty six thousand, seven hundred and eleven active. First they massed on and and you go look at this A A lot of this comes from like open A P S. That these things have they just paying every day.

You can see how they go. Masdar n had that big bump, real momentum after the twitter thing happened with elon musk and IT was IT had a moment and IT just lost all of that momentum. And IT IT has settle back slater higher than IT was before he went from, like a half a million active users every day, two hundred eighty six thousand active users day, which is not nothing but like that, also not momentum.

Two years later, like massed on just kona lost IT. And I feel like great. Now we got a tone of people who are asking, like, oh, where should I go? And I see like, the only two answers I would even think about at this moment, or blue sky and threats. And I would tell you, like, go to blue sky is more fun and threads is easier. I guess the place sight.

and I even know it's easier. The blue copp is the number one opening up. So today, mostly seeing people news, Chris haz brought IT up on M A M B C last night and said, I really like h and they had a bump.

But the blue we're pointing out that this made the language. Um so it's then i'm to APP in the store today, people are leaving. The thing of blue guy is that right now is self contain.

There isn't another. At protocol server, the everything is on blue sky. And I feel like the mass on number is a little bit confusing because all those people, Mason, have the ability to see content .

from threats to that is the .

promise of federation. So I kind of doesn't matter of that number stagnates as long as the threats number goes up because you are still being able to follow thd depending on your mass conserver. And this is the complexity.

It's all. But if your masses were in Operates with threads, as long as threads numbers keep going up, you have the ability to follow and interact with all those people, or you will over time. So there there are some promise of federation here that I think excuse these numbers.

But the one thing that is clear is that a smaller number of bad people are in and higher rates on twitter. yes. X, it's weird.

It's a weird. But I I think the shake up is going to be good. I think IT is time to think about distribution on the internet way different ways, particularly the creator platforms. Just shove craters and influencers around and like, start adding. I open my instruction yesterday and I was like, do you want to make an A I ve yourself to talk to your fans and you know, you super .

did IT IT.

I was like, yeah, sure do to ask him for money. Make sure they pay pay me money. And I that is a response to craters, feel you burn up.

That's what that's why that bun is there is because creators have complaining about IT for so on. There are out of things that you and the platforms are just going to be more attractive. And if just some handful of create publications, whatever mixture of things is like actually going to make this little more open, I think much Better place.

Agree also the virtues on the sky. Now go follow the sky.

We are. And we just started packed with the whole thing, hope distribution. We have to say.

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make progress. Our back Carry roberson here. Hi callie.

Hello, welcome. The version. Have we've been on the together?

No, I don't think so.

Wa spooky. There is a reason. Sorry ah you're here. We're going to do a new segment. We're calling show and tell are we actually we're .

calling IT that until someone calls the mails of the Better name. Uh, we ve had very good luck in the past letting smarter people than us named things for us. So please, if you have a Better idea, call the hotline sim email, name this .

segment for us. No, right. So here's what we're onna do during the presentiments ly named 是 and tell all of us are going to bring one story to the table。

We're going to say what IT is and then we're going to talk about, but IT has be good oh god. So we're put in David on the spot first. Dave is a story this week.

I feel like we have to talk about the square ipad. Um you mentioned IT briefly at the top, but we this this is the only thing I can think about so we have to talk about this.

So we've been hearing rumors and reporting for a long time that apple was really interest getting into the smart home uh marker ma bloomberg, who is Better at reporting what apple is going to do than everybody, uh, had a big story this week about what this thing is going to be. Uh, apple is is essentially building a smart home controller that is going to live inside of your house. Can I just review several sentences from this article? And I would like you to tell me what device sounds .

like I am describing for a seven called show, and telling fish like this is a little backwards and that you're reading. And then i'm describing .

what I think you shown me. Other people are gna in this point, so marker in says it's about the size of two iphone side by side with a thick edge around the display. There's also a camera at the top front, a rechargeable billing battery and internal speakers. Apple plans to offer IT in silver and black options if you're already thinking, gosh, I know what David is describing. I have more for you.

The product has a touch in her face, uh, the company expects most people to use their voice interactive device relying on the syria digital assistant apple intelligence IT, uh, the product will be marketers away to control homelands, chat with syrian holding inner comes sessions with face time IT will also be little to apple apps, including ones for web browsing, listening to news updates and playing music. Users will be able to access their notes, encounter information, and the device can turn into a slide show display for their photos. Do you know what device i'm describing?

The three hundred two .

and the I it's an ipad is going to make an ipad and they're going to sell IT to you to use in your house. Let me let me read the thing that is actually new and is actually interesting. If you just imagine an ipad.

Mark german writes this in history, says apple has designed different attachments for advice, including ones that to fix the screens onto walls like a classical security. There will be bases with additional speakers that can be placed in the kitchen, on the nights and or on a desk. Apple imagines the face time future being used while cooking or for video converting during work meetings.

A still just an ipad IT. Honestly, that sounds very much like the thing apple is going to make as a bad ipad that IT wants to sell you lots of for your house. Be an accessory ecosystem of cool new things that you can add to your ipad just by ducking IT on these different docks around your house is a kick s idea that apple should totally do, just not with a stupid sixth bad ipad. I'm like losing my mind about this thing.

I just want to say I, lad, i've said this many times before, apple is horribly accessory because systems, actually, it's just a thing. It's just reality. How many smart keyboard covers there for the ipad today? Oh, I agree. Belkin has become .

like the official apple accessory maker because apple either can't or won't do IT itself.

Well, walking is on by fox cuts. So you get the idea that every night again, the apple designer goes. And fox on factory is like I have a number of idea. There's something real there I find um but great in a third party costs like we are dogs and adapters, every wants us to exist, every apple product.

sure. But like I just I just have to keep reading. The newly designed Operating system will also include a customisable where users can run widgets for checking stock stickers, the weather and appointment that's an ipad, or they can configure the screen, the highly key home controls ipad. There will also be a time for quality, launching favorite apps and grade of software icon. It's an ipad.

I look in all ipad again market. Bloomberg is a very traditional organization and .

government has IT workout of this. This is all very good reporting from the fact this is very good reporting. It's just apple is just going to make an ipad action and they're gonna try to salad was a new thing because they conduct on a speaker, yes, nothing to cut down .

the the interface, right, to make IT more smart ome you know what people talk to, you know the presumably smarter theory. That's the thing that could happen during development.

Apple discuss launching an apple stores part of the device, but IT recently decided to exclude this feature. The initial version. It's an ipad without the APP store.

So it's just worse. I'm just going to point out a couple weeks ago, we had joanie an on the show and we talk about caroj door openers for five hours in apple's dreams of making a smart hom product. You're going to run head first into the reality of smart ham products.

Yes, that's what's going to have, which is there is impossible. That's the whole answer. That really is the whole very smart people get tripped up at whether the smart part of the light pub should be in the light pub or the switch.

And there are there are religious arguments for both. There are good reasons to do in my own home. I have both.

Yeah, I have smart live bos and I from which is no no IT in my family that literally I am trying to illuminate knows why or how many that works. yeah. And so you put the thing on the wall. Now your house is smart. You end up having to tell a bunch of consumers where a bunch of other computers and houses have to go, yeah, that just falls IT just falls flat immediately.

So would you guys not do this though? This is not something because I all am thinking. As you say, this is, don't hate the player, hate the game. There's gonna a dozen people in this office who buy this .

IT feels like happen. sure. If you're apple, you have this tablet lineup that is very mature and full of the identity crisis. And what if instead you just took the thing and said, now here's a dock that makes IT haven't always on screen and thus you can control all the things you can still control from your ipad like it's just it's such a tiny leap from an ipad to this.

I think the reason you don't do IT if you're apple is because you can sell a bad ipad a lot cheaper than you can sell a good ipad. They're going to make a bad ipad stick a dear wall fine. That that there's also uh, government has been reporting that the next version of IT is gonna a robotic ARM IT cost a thousand dollars like sure, that's all finding good.

But I think there is there is a really interesting case to be made that you could turn an ipad, which is already, for most people, kind of statistically speaking, like a home bound device. IT is a thing that lives on your bedside table or on your couch or on your coffee table. It's not as portable a thing as a maybe is presuming to be in a lot of ways. You could just turn that up a little bit and turn IT into something really cool and powerful with this successful ecosystem. But instead, apple is going to reinvent the entire wheel in a way that just feels ridiculous to me.

I'm excited for you to buy ipad that you takes your world. I think you're going to want IT. You're in love talking a theory and be like theory to this automation.

And then theory is not going to work. And you like, what is the answer? Then you're in a google IT. And the answer for some reason is going to be restarting your iphone, which is one hundred percent the apple home story.

A big part of this feels like what you do when you build all of this other A I stuff, like the apintment stuff that apple is working on with theory, this new theory, all the apple intelligent stuff, and you go HMM. What does any of this actually useful for? This is the same thing, by the way, that google did with google assistant and amazon did with alex a and you realize, oh, it's just you can turn off two sets of dates at once instead of one set of laws and that that apple is is running directly towards that and nowhere .

else I do want to call the number of listeners who responded to our durani conversation, like the show openers and what he said. Creed figuration is a series opens gradual by pointing out that there is a zero percent chance crag federation has an apple home home and instead definitely has a custom access stran home motivation system. Yeah H A great. The emails we got there were like, you all understand that there's a customer that this man has across transit and yet, right, you've shown you've told I do I give you a score .

seven .

going for leaving .

now to me is that you've .

ever said to me it's .

a new segment. We're figuring out how works. I would you have .

oh my god, it's gonna hard to top.

And seven.

no bad ipad. Um well, now i'm talking about scaling laws, which are really interesting. Everyone's reporting this week that scaling laws are fAiling a so what that is, is just put more compute and more data into an L M. And IT will get bigger, Better, smarter. And everyone has the same training data, which is the internet, the entire internet in Oliver work.

So they have all that they're all building sort of the same thing and they are all finding google OpenAI anthropic, that IT is not working anymore, that they are not getting Better than their last generation of models and they're all pissing their pants about IT. That's the story this week. Yeah I think this is, I keep thinking about that tweet, which is like, you know, the haters said I couldn't do IT and they were right great call from the haters I think all.

I think all of the .

air skeptics are like, get, we told you, yeah, he told you that this wasn't something you could skill infinitely so yeah, I don't think it's like domes daily. It's over for A I. But still it's it's interesting that they all sort of frustrating that they can make that giant next sleep. And IT costs so much money. So if people if they want to release something that cost so much money for people to use.

it's got to be way Better and it's just not. So the idea here is okay with training, get more data, which I was always confusing to be more the more data would come from.

yes, data.

So make some fake A, I will train even bigger model and that one will necessarily be smarter. yes. And that just hasn't worked out.

And that hasn't worked out. IT does not appear that any of them are going to be more capable than the last. So that means you know for instance, I believe I was reported that o wine was helping train uh the next generation of open a GPT models uh but that has become a problem because you know IT just gets confused by synthetic data, not high quality data.

So yeah they're all running into that same. And that means that there's going to there's going to be some like research breakthrough that gets them to that next step that they don't currently have and those just tons of money writing on this for them to figure this out. So I think they're all again pissing their pants over.

IT is one of the haters I definitely .

I so exposed to be something kindly that you've been saying to us and on the rest forever, which is there has been this ongoing line from all of this I company is that it's like we're going to do a model and we're going to do another model and we're going to another model and we're going to do another model.

And then it's god and it's like, what what is he going to be on the way? And I don't worry about IT god, none of this shit matters because god, we're going to make god and then you're going to feel dome for not giving us money. And what happens now is they're going to get to the point where they like, okay, you've built this thing is actually very cool.

It's very capable, can do lots of things. What's IT for? What are people gna do with IT? And all these companies are lake emails, but right, bomb. And we're like, we are going to be stuck in this. What can you do with this phase for a lot longer than any of these companies would like you to believe?

There's that there's just also this week, right? Darro mode from anthropic is calling this freedom en that will have agi in like two years. Yes, same of anything.

In the past couple weeks, I said on current hardware, we can have agi, which, by the way, that means the tech industry should stop. Like if you can make sure, if you can make god on in videos, current hardware, we we should stop. Yeah.

we're good.

Yeah, done. Let god build the next version of the GPU. Like it'll be here.

Tell the god processing unit that's .

what if you are like if I just put enough one hundred ds in a room, I can have god topic. We should and video should just slow the fuck down 是 right？ And IT that there's something very incompatible with two years of agi.

I can build agi in current hardware and the bigger models we just trained aren't more capable than the previous models. yes. Is that what what's going on?

Um I ve been asked on verge cast or sorry, I think he was decoder. Should we trust them? And I I I mean, I as a drill, lest i'm just very skettles al so daro saying, you know, we're gona get A G S to do all these beautiful things and I mean, they just have to sell products at the end of the day, the redit a that sam open did recently where he said, and it's really hard to release these things in parallel.

We have like such a limited compute, and it's hard to work on all of these things. But the next big thing, I think, is going to be agents. It's just feels like they are painting that.

I don't don't look at this look don't look at this right year. We haven't figured that out. Just don't think about agents on current hardware, current models.

Look at that. Please give us money. Don't look at how we are fAiling to make the next big model, and I don't think we need a next bigger model. I think we really enjoys these companies really enjoyed making these huge leaps from models, model.

And if they're capable enough now of achieving some good emails, then fine, they think that they can combine you know the GPT series with the o reasoning series and perhaps get agi again. I think all of this is to somewhere products and get more money. That has always been my position. So yeah.

I mean, I just want to read the quote from dara. If you believe the straight line extrapolating, we will have artificial general elegance in twenty twenty six or twenty twenty seven, right? If line go up forever, I will make god, have you got seen the tweet from the guy?

I'm sorry, I remember hood is what we'll find IT put in the showa who was like, he has two pictures of him with his newborn baby and then his baby, who's now three months. He's like, wild guys. My baby has doubled in weight in three months at this rate, by his tenth birthday, he'll be seven.

And I think about that every single time somebody talks about one of the things like it's really in, people talk about the stuff as if IT is guaranteed. Like you look at more law, right in this, this thing that is like gover technological progress for so long. We now take IT as truth that everything that grows grows the same way and forever.

And IT just doesn't like there is no guarantee that any of this will work like that just because the way we make semiconductors works like that. It's just not how IT works. Okay.

to add to this too, you know how sam altman was going across the world trying to get these trillion dollar data centers built somewhere? Someone give me the money to build these data centers so I can power digital god, um there is a story in the information today that a competitor fu like a crop plane over X I eyes uh data center to figure out how he was cooling those chips because there are so scared about liquid cooling and is so confusing. And I thought that's crazy that we're getting to a point where people are just flying little planes over elan's data center to figure out how the fuck they can build digital god in the same way. It's just such a funny thing.

The next mission impossible movie is just time cruise breaking into a data center to figure out how they powered all this stuff.

I think that was the last mission. And I .

was very sorry if IT was that, oh my god.

space man.

By the way, if you look on all the streaming services, you've taken part one off of that movie because IT ends on such a garbage .

because you had they like never .

we're doing a different just a full movie um I don't know I kof you've shown you told yes, David, I think you are to for this one .

two that's out of three to be clear.

Sorry, you're so july.

We didn't say what are scoring.

We actually didn't say that we were are scoring.

Me gave me a seven out of ten. I'm giving you a two and a half of six. Actually you get like the next six one sum up, but not the two. I like IT, but not a love IT kind of thing, you know, I know. So that's your score.

Digital god, David, we can do IT on current hardware. I want to say this as reckless as I can. If you believe we can build agi in current hardware, the tech industry should stop.

We should just stop doing everything and focus on that one goal so that digital god can design the next iphone. But I don't think gets true, right? That claim just implies you should stop working.

And, you know, A G, I do IT for you, please, I beg you. But agi write about down on trump for the next four years will be a little. Everyone can take a break.

right?

Here's one, just, just a series of words as socially, uh, just eat is selling grab hub to wonder .

what none of .

those words make any sense. Uh, so grab up is the delivery service. It's like for the one that you are most with. They bought seamless well go.

It's all the same time that was such a new yorker thing to say.

Just grab .

hub is the one is such a new york central thing.

You say none of these words in the bible. I think what? Yeah.

I don't know what's going. It's like, L, A, it's just post mates, but nowhere else. S, F, is, I think, probably still like a dash town. H, H, uh, this is like, this is like when you live in new york, is really go just seem with IT like what? That's nothing.

That's not a work. Da, when we move to new york from chico, anyway, doesn't matter. These are nonsense words and fAiling in businesses that are just selling each other in different migrations.

What I want to get to is they're selling IT to a company called a wonder, which, owned by a part owner of the minnesota timber walls and a former walmart p and wonder's. Physical model. Is bananas perfect? They, he licenses recipes from famous chefs.

So you like? Yes, so wonder is like a high end food hall and it's a ghost kitchen with like famous restaurants logos on the front. So you go in there and you're like, here's all these like famous local restaurants or like restaurants i've heard of that like celebrities go to.

So wonder licenses recipes from famous shifts. So you open wonder and there's bobbi face stick. They're stepped by market Samuelsson. Uh, there is detroit brick pizza. There is all the stuff um defarr pizz, which is I got famous new york piz places there. But they don't actually make the food, they license the recipes and they have one big commerce y kitchen at like pre makes the food.

So and then IT goes to the food hall where they would like steam bath ths and microwaves, reheat the food and assemble IT and and delivered to you or serve in the foot, all so theyve like commoditized, the famous chefs recipe, industrial scale. And now they are going to buy, grab hub, and they are going to bring that models in even bigger delivery system. And it's like, oh, this is wild. wow. Like the reason the shaft are famous is because you think coz and dress is going to make you the food yeah and now he's just licence to recipes to someone else can steam back the food to you.

incentive to you and we know how much they're making off that hasn't leaked .

wow and IT also just be clear, some of is very expensive because it's famous chefs.

So by but it's not famous chefs.

This is like a knockoff version of eating dinner in a vegas casino, right? But it's like a bunch of restaurants that all claim to be you know run by famous people. But I just has their name on the uh, it's like getting this is vehicle of getting room service from a bobbi fly restaurant in a vegas casino.

Well, gorden ramsey burger is delicious. Lets be clear.

i'm sure some of this stuff is good. It's just IT also isn't the point of going to gordon ramsay burger places that like vibe like getting take out gordon ramsey just yes.

Well, I mean, you want to be screamed at in the face by going exactly some extent the veggies version of the chain restaurants like the vegas carbon, some people think is the best carbon because they just like moves the most business and there's the most dumb money flowing through IT. sure. fine.

This is very much like we're gna half, make the famous pizza, send IT to a food hall and then a steam and we'll finish the famous pizer, right? And then we will put that on grab up. And you know, just like, oh, this is the end point of a very particular business model that started with cloud kitchens, right? Where you like open the delivery b, right? And it's actually chucky cheese. And then people are like, what if you didn't even have the chucky cheese and I put, then you still you can't just have like wings dot com, whatever was in the sa unique bobbi flays name next to IT. And you're just kind of this is this .

circles getting real weird. It's all of that IT ends IT like golden coral. Perfect is essentially the end point of this whole .

system on in america. Every restaurant is caron.

Have you seen people joking about how they don't want dash coming in like a new on osmia? They want in uber black like this is the same the same thing very serious. It's just like like sending an uber black to uh, commercial to get your food.

Like what is the point anymore? I feel like we've just reached a new level of consumer m. That is absolutely absurd.

And I would like every part of this process to feel fancy, but actually not be fancy at all.

I want to think .

it's expensive even though IT IT sucks.

I just like the idea that you would order any stake from a delivery APP has always seemed odd to me, like just that's not it's not a great environment for C B. M. Like in the back of .

the way about delivery sushi like me, not about IT. sorry.

Like you know .

why mary trip is angry in the double worst product he is having delivery stick .

for lunch IT such .

a good point ah that i've shown.

I told I can I add one more thing to this? yes. So four years ago, uh, when there was another stuff going on in the world, uh, justice, which was then called Justin take away because, uh, bot drop up for seven point three billion dollars and is now selling IT to wonder for six hundred and fifty million dollars. I don't know enough about this world to like really process why that is, but that is a giant loss in four years.

Yeah, I don't remember the last time I use grab hub, maybe twenty .

twenty event.

So makes sense to me.

Well, and just take away was for a minute they were like IT IT was called Justin. Take away because that was the combination of two businesses. And IT was supposed to be the like giant delivery congal orate that was gonna eat everything uh and adjust .

has not paid out for gins can't .

be I gins microwave garda anc's is I don't I I not say gordana y and i'm sure the margin and selling microwave bi flies like very good .

that's probably a Better business idea than um people enslaved to mcDonald on motorcycles.

All of these companies have said for years in like uber and dora a among them that shipping food and stuff is a much higher margin business around the city than people right like giving humans rides is not nearly as good of business as moving stick around for a huge profit. Uh, so like you can see that I there was just gonna be this time when all of these times is are competing in.

Whoever one was gonna a giant and IT was gonna be epic and they're are going to be the biggest company in the world. And what above seems you've happened. This is a bunch of lake, 无疑 是 successful but fairly low march businesses。 Yeah, that works well in some places and not in others. The VC dollars .

are not able to buy my options and then raise the Prices. The business model for, in particular uber, for a long time. But look again is just the words and using just eat has sold grab hub to wonder is a sentence that you now understand.

I don't want to understand that.

I want to go back. Give a score.

three missile and stars.

very good.

Wow.

that means i'm now arranging as well and I can't be stopped. I don't made me no.

i'm going to put you in the ring with Bobby clay and then figured out.

yes, chef.

we ve got to stop. That's IT. That was show and til we have to take a break. Thank you. Carry. We will be right back.

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We're back the lighting around. I have news. It's not today, but i'm told the light in around sponsored big money.

We're going to be doing this podcast from a yet starting sometimes .

too IT was sponsored by a boat show. If you want a boat show you'd like to sponsored, please let me know about a sponsor nation, which we are ethically not allowed to.

I have been trying to come up with a reason to go to the monaco yet. Show for journal m, for approximately my entire journalism. That is my, i've always said that the main thing I want to do is figure out a reason to expense drugs, uh, figure out a journalistically real reason to go to the monaco.

Yao is now number one on my life. You've mellowed in your old age. I just want to be on a boat now. I want, I just sober on a boat.

Seems great, is very good. I like around, ah.

what do you think you have selected three things in the lightning round, which is the least lightning round thing I could imagine. So h why don't you go first in .

one of my first one, which I just I got very quickly, um it's events people have asking about this week uh in its ethics and disclosure so talk about this for as much as anybody wants to talk about IT and move on to more fun around once um but this week mark has really made a video, a sponsor to video in the video is speeding as car people got mad about IT. We read about IT because mark s. Is a huge character and tech.

We read about other creators all the time, uh, we think audience wants to know and keep up with the things. So we wrote about IT. Here's what happening, if you need. The story is pretty raight on the website. Here's some stuff that happened.

Here is the cover of IT mark, as we were about his wallpaper at recently to there's whatever controversy I don't want to draw on the video or what happened in the video or any that stuff. What people are asking about is I think it's its way form, right? Mark is podcast at the end of vitor.

The beginning that they say this part of to me in podcast at work so we were asking, do we need to disclose this? Um should we disclose this? This story should we talk right now, as I think virtue is now, I got no problems with disclosures.

Disclosures all might know that I think we should be as transparent as possible about potential sources of conflict. I think we should earn people's trust is just transparently as we can. We talk about the the making of journalism more than any other traditional journalists, uh, that I can think of.

We certainly do more disclosures than any traditional media or any influences. Also, I have literally no problem this i'm happy disclose sed IT. The thing that we're running into rate now is like when and why do we disclose things? And so in this case, um the australia podcast network is in ad sales network, right?

If you are if you start a podcast, you just like go on youtube where you go on the spotify ed platform, whatever you're kind unless you have big scale, you kind of stuck with programmatic advertising, whatever the platforms will give to you. And if you want Better advertising you more money, you need scale. So you d join a podcast and ork that has a lot of inventory a across lot of shows and then our is garden.

And so that inventory in a week were money or what? I actually don't know because that's the other side of the house, right? So the conflict here doesn't exist like our sales team is selling ads, which they do on our own website that we don't know about, that they do on the show, right, that we basically know um as many of you i've heard sometimes as we just run the same at five hundred times, like there's a wall between us and sales and we are very, very, very protective of that wall.

We are coverage often loses their money because various companies are mad and our coverage and they walk away to I i've personally costs this company bunch of money, but that's the whole point of the wall, right, is to keep our newsroom away from any of those considerations so that we can just write what's happening and have editorial independence and freedom. And we can if you dislike the first line of our polices, like is the editorial independence that allows us to cover companies critically without fear, favor whatever. That's the thing that's the most important, that's the truly the hardest of Operation is the independence.

So what we disclose is where there's a prauge ble connection to some conflict in our newsroom. So comcast abc universal is an investor in our company there on our board directors. They can want to fire me, right? They can.

They they might. They like they can have a board meeting and say we should fire this guy that is applausive in in position in our new room. IT has never happened.

You know, we've running the thing for thirteen years, but that's plausible. I think you can you can fairly look at our company and say at the top of the the verge is talking about context. Maybe they're get fired, maybe shared in the coverage.

fine. So we disclose IT. I made a netflix show just just open conflict of interest, right? Like every time I talk with a network, I should point out that I made a netflix show.

I think I paid for because the company made IT. But you know, whatever, I still made the show great. Like I I think that's fine.

That's a totally rational conflict of interests. There is applauded. Connection to the thing in the conflict is a millions. We disclose SE in all time.

This one, there isn't a plausible conflict that actually more applausive conflict is that, David, I know most of the people and reform, and we like this. yeah. So I will disclose to you, I ve known markets for a long time.

David is in markets for long time. We know a bunch of the folks over there were friendly with them. We generally wish them success when we cover them.

I think we do to straight as weekend. But the actual business conflict is is not their fight. We open the door to disclosing what our sales side is doing.

I think we actually threaten our editors independence because then I had to tell the newsroom every single thing they have to disclose, read, and I have to make the newsroom aware of all of the companies, commercial and corporate interactions in a way that I actually don't want them to know that the whole purpose of the wall is that they're just going to do their choice. So there's there's a line here. I'm not me.

I always get a percent right. But in this case that I know what that arrangement is like, I know what the boxing your protest network is. We have a bunch of these deals like all of got galaxy's profile shows.

We don't own them, we don't make them. But there are in the network, we sell the ads. There are the ones as well. There are all kinds of arrange. We will disclose the ones at our company. But in this case, it's it's just a little to remove from our news room in the same way that we run a programmatic C A tex stack called concert that is on tons of publishers every time we see a concert will go on a way that the box media is serving that one and we just cannot disclose to every partner the concert IT would IT would bring our museum to a halt in. And more importantly, IT would force me to make every reporter in the news room aware of the company's business deals, which is the most important thing.

right? That's the key, right? Like the the not knowing on that side is is important, right? Like there there is a thing we talk about this with creators and self. All the that one of the chAllenges is knowing what something you do will do to your business and because of who is advertising and who wants to sponsor with you on this up, that is a thing you have to reckon with. And a big part of what we're trying to do is not even give people the chance to think about that because IT just IT just changes things.

And I firmly believe that this is getting confusing in model and most people do not understand, and that's on us. We have to constantly explain IT, which is I am happy to talk about IT whenever anyone asks. That is not how most of the media that most people consume works anymore.

Most creators influence have absolutely blurred. The lines between advertising, between sales. They have investments, the commercial relationships are in the front of their content, are not even calling out any creature.

This is the reality of the business on those platforms. If you want to make enough money to eat, this is how you have to play the game. Yes, but that thought us right.

Like that just isn't us. And so i'm happy disclose everything, happy to talk about IT. I just there are times so I be like, no, that one doesn't make any sense.

And what i'm really talking about is if I extend the rule that much, we're actually going to defeat the purpose of the rule. We're going to defeat the independence of the news room in a way that I that that is the product we sell here is the independence of the newsroom. Let me I give this example, every really close contrast.

And this there are other investors in our company. They're there. And if I extend the rule so far, like I can end up in a place for every single morning and just telling the newsroom who they should be worried, right?

Here's a list of problems. Yeah, here's a list of .

considerations for every story. And IT like I I, I really think that undercuts the promise of what we do here. So like as I will take the feedback, I will talk about that whatever we want. In this case, there's not a applauded connection to the companies and commercial activities in our is room.

I I just assure you that there isn't one to the point where until people mentioned to us, I am and thought about um and so will we will keep you in disclosures might ask of you you wanted yell me about this take twenty percent of the energy and point IT at other media outlets and other creators and influencers because I would rather be in a world where the audience is that demanding of everyone and i'll do my best to live up to IT because that's the thing is going to rebuild trust and whatever kind of journal makes us and that we do IT. So we get IT a lot right? It's an expectation that we have created with all of you and i'm happy about that we receive the explanation.

But if you think we're fAiling, take just twenty percent of the energy. Appointed everybody else like, I will make everything a little bit Better. I did. What's really a minds .

is going to be much quicker because I really don't anna talk about IT like women from something that we like talking about you.

I don't, under any circumstances want to talk about this but we have to uh and IT is that uh, president elect Donald trump has said that you on mosque is going to be leading uh, I think called the department of government efficiency that is going to do some stuff cut wasteful government spending there's apparently going to be a leader board on x of all the dumb ways the government spends money and the the only reason I want to talk about this is because, uh, I think if if I have a if I have a bit on this show that is the question, is this anything is the mean of a person holding like their hand at a butterfly going? Is this anything? This is nothing.

This is not so was announced and it's announced it's elon in direct ramsa. I are going to run. It's amazing that the efficiency department has two leaders. Like you're just coming up the gate with coco .

like blackberry.

that's very good. You can just do a department.

You can just do IT like in life.

I declare .

department is not a thing the president can do.

Are you mean in the government?

Yeah, you and I could make a department of, I just the department of David pillows like that exists. I did IT.

We're here. You really like your wife and things.

I am the president.

I did. So weird, bill. But the .

government cannot just create a department out of thin air because someone says so that's not how this works um i'm going to say .

what yeah the union active congress yes the thing so whatever the only only thing I add to this because this is can be fake when I talk about and this is pure by the way, decoder bit will definite talk about decoder um can you make a fake department in the government also by the leader boards of wasteful government spending.

They been new that should since eighties I guess some of these ideas, we're just inventing trains again, like the classic you on mosque. Anyway, all this is to say there is a new york mac article today about the seen at mary logo. And just like the frenzy of corruption that happening. And every time elon mosques in the dinner, Donald trump, pls out his ipad in place space oddy by David. Boy.

I don't like that at all.

I feel David will be very mad. But I also things very funny.

Picks place on yeah like not exactly the compliment you might think IT is it's not yeah but that's enough. We've talked about that enough.

What's your next? And all back I check in um uh our nation's fourth wireless career, which you will recall is a production trump one when t mob wanted to buy sprint and instead of saying no, which is the exact process by which t mobile was created, you recall A T wondered by tmo with the government said no and the tmo will had to go out, they took a bunch of money in the public and became tmo hired a new we're going to try hard yeah ah we didn't do that with sprint.

Um the court literally said sprint sucks so much no one can fix the team and looks have IT and to get around this problem macon daughter he me was the head of an I trust the time broker personally ideal um by which team mole would get a bunch of sprint and a bunch of sprint spectrum would go to dish network, america's favorite satellite T, V. Service and they would create a fourth wireless network, which uh IT has been one billion years uh in which does not meaningful exist. There was a pilot ever called project and vices which offered people nf if they set up for service on the moderate edge.

So that didn't work. Uh, mostly there's been an n vo, so they resell T T N T mobile service. Uh, historically successful plan to compete with A T N T T mable is just buying their service and reselling IT for a fee that really hasn't quaking in their boots.

Uh, they have set up some tower in some cities. They've decided they are gonna go of all the Jennifer stuff. They're just going to call boost mobile watches a brand that they acquired in the thing. And now they say, they say they have earned the title of mobile network Operator. That's their announcement.

Congrats rather .

than envy. A which is mobile virtual never Operate, which is what you call yourself. You're just reselling on the people service. They have earned the title of mobile network, but there are a real network now by the end of the year needs to reach eighty percent of the people, they said. We are well on the way to meeting this goal. They have set up more than twenty thousand and the twenty four thousand thousand sites its plumbed to deployed by a june twenty twenty five. But has anybody seen IT?

Has anyone running ads? Yeah, like, do any friends who are on boost there mean people of friends .

are in boost, but they are just reason eighteen teacher, you go on the separate of genesis. It's not pretty. Uh, in the meantime, by the way, all of the other three griers that all we've as race .

surprises yep and all of me and competition in the market, all the stuff that I saw on project, basically like if I stand right here, I get with the career that I think that I have and if i'm literally anywhere else on planet earth is to say eighty.

thank you.

He just got like a slightly worse eighty. And t pho.

congratulate lation a motoring edge. You're killing IT. Uh, we'll see. You know, there's always something will happen time over lentone sly, go by, I mean.

and you mention t mobile, but I IT is possible to do interesting things in this space like there. There was a time when t mobile did the whole on Carrier bit and everything got purple, and john ja was running around doing crazy selish. There are interesting moves you can make in this market, and there haven't been any in a very long time.

no. And I I think it's it's like I I am hopeful for boost. Uh, I would say I have precisely zero actual expectations of this going anywhere.

And I will just point out that all they had to do was not let him a desprit and said they broke her this complicated deal. Why is team able cheaper? Certainly isn't. So in either the team promises that, that wouldn't t any jobs immediately cut thousands of jobs. yeah.

Where's this more entering period now where there will be more mergers? The lindon era is is over, right? All that's gonna turn over already streaming gave IT as old as like mergers are back yeah like the next trial is going to go away.

Um you can just see that hey, should verizon by paramo and bundled into its service and throttle disney is like there is accounts that just just on their boats, just staring off into the sun that dreaming up ways to raise Prices and it's not in a result in faster service or more label service. Almost guaranty you wants to know the rd chases me next three years. Just me ranting about salt Carriers.

So the same as always, that's good. Nice to know that something don't change, even just trying times .

three more yeah exactly more alright. I just very .

briefly want to pour one out for everyone's eleven favorite streaming service, uh, freezing, which was I believe once called I M D B free dive, I think, and then IT was I M D B T V. And then IT was freezing. And now IT is dying and just everything is being bundled into prime video.

Uh, this is not going to be sad for very many people. I don't think free view is actually like a sneaky, pretty good, pretty light APP. So i'm sad, did not be able to use IT anymore.

jury. They did do jury, which was wonderful. And I actually think jury duty is sort funny because there's all these. We ve talked a lot about the fast channels and the the sort of rise of ad supported streaming.

And jury duty is kind of the only giant break out hit to ever come out of one of these service. Like you look at the the roku channels had a few. They had the weird yq vic movie that was like kind of around, uh, to b is doing stuff plus du is doing stuff like this.

This fast universe is growing really quickly. The huge sort of mainstream content has not really happened. And I think if you look at amazon, on is all in on ads, uh, and I think this is the thing that is really starting to happen is the ad business and streaming is turning really fast now.

Uh, netflix is now two years into IT and it's growing pretty quickly. Uh, who love is doing really well. And so disney and E, S, piano starting to catch up like the ad supported streaming universe is here in a big way.

And I think amazon was that earlier this year turned on the thing where now it's adds, by default, must you pay more? And now it's bringing all this free stuff in to give people more stuff to watch with those ads inside a crime video like this is the future. And we're going to go back to big, giant libraries, mostly stuff you don't, anna watch because they're just trying to turn out inventory. And I think it's going to change. Streaming is really interesting ways.

but I am sad for this gone name.

And the i'm sorry, they also had like a bush legacy or something is like a bosh spin off that apparently some people watched. I don't know. I've never felt less connected to pop culture than reading about bosh legacy when free v died. But I did watch jury duty.

And IT was great jury duty. They should. They should just make one of those every week. I he was very good. I we're way over.

Thank you kindly for being on what does somebody think of show? Tell, let show you a Better name, yes, please. Or if we should actually have score.

The idea, just so everybody knows, is that we all just sort of bring stories and surprise each other. We're were going to teach each other new things and all have thought about IT on the show, so named that whatever .

you want and please scoring.

And that's IT for the verge gas this way. Hey, we'd love to hear from you. Give us a holiday six six verge one one.

The verge cast is a production of the verge in box media podcast network. Our show is produced by liam James will poor and air go mass, and that's IT. We'll see you next week.

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