We Don't Know How To Make Friends... | Trash Taste #159
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- Hey, what's up? Welcome back to another episode of the Trash Taste Podcast. I'm Joey and as always, I'm with Garnt and C-Dawg. - Hello. - Why is he Garnt and why am I C-Dawg? - 'Cause you got the dog in you. - You got that dog in you, man. - He's got that dog. - I hope I don't. - You don't want the dog in you? - No, isn't that like a sexual term now? - What?

- Okay, so- - Bro, memes change too fast. I can't keep up with this shit. I always thought it was just like, he's like the cool kid. - I thought it always meant, yo, this like, it's a guy who will perform under pressure, like when, no matter what, you know? 'Cause he got that dog in him. But I don't actually know because I actually just guessed that out of Googling it. - I thought it was just like a substitute for Riz.

- Like he's got the Riz, he's got the dog, you know? - Okay, so like new words pop up all the time. When did Riz become a thing? Because I'm like, I just want to make sure that my first time hearing Riz and your guys' time do match up or if I'm just like out of touch. - I don't even know anymore, man. Like with how fast memes are moving nowadays, like every other week there's a new word that people are just saying on Twitter. I'm like, what did I miss? - And I feel like-

- I feel like the fact that I'm seeing it on Twitter means I'm two months out of when this actually started somewhere else on the internet, probably on TikTok or something, right? - I tried to find the thing of the dog. - The thing of the dog. - I don't know, I don't, you know, I just pretend. - I typed in dog and I just showed up. - I just pretend like I know what's happening and I just say the words in the same way that everyone else is. - Like where did Riz come from? - Some, no, the thing is,

We're like, man, where did this come from? But then it's probably like some really well detailed history of where exactly it came from and when it started being used. 'Cause that's how it always is. It's just probably more mainstream. - I'm waiting for the one hour doc YouTube documentary of the history of Riz. - The history of Riz.

- Just wait for a lesson in meme culture, he'll tell us. - Yeah, because like, I don't know, sometimes a word just makes sense, you know? - Like what? - Okay, the first time I heard drip, I'm like, I get it. I don't even know, like, I don't even know the full context of it. - We've had this exact same context. - Have we actually? - You said, and I swear you've said this exact same sentence.

- With Drippers the example. - Oh my God. - Hey man, we're 150. - I have to say, you started saying this and I was like, no. - Deja vu, deja vu. - We've had this podcast. - I have heard this conversation before. - You've said this. Give me the cliff notes, come on.

- I think we've had this exact conversation. - I think we have this conversation every time there's a new word that comes out. - Last time it was busing, right? And we had this whole conversation about why- - Has that died? - Yes. - No, it kind of came back with that whole like, "I'm busing" meme, right? Have you seen that one? - What? - It's such a horrible meme. It comes from this gay porn.

And it's just like a dude who is obviously not a native English speaker. And when he bosses- - It's a different bussing. - Yeah, and he's just like, "I'm bussing!"

- That is not the bussin' that we're talking about. - I have to show it to you, it's so funny. - Yeah, but now it's like, it used to mean like, oh man, this shit's like really good. Like, oh, this food is bussin', right? But now it just means just bussin' or not. - I don't think it does. I mean, in one corner of the internet. - I always took it that way. I'm like, if I ate a piece of food, I was like, oh man, this shit's bussin'.

- But now it just means busting, like busting. - I've never heard someone, I've never heard it in that context, I'll be honest. - No, no, no. - Is this a TikTok thing that we've fallen? - No, it's definitely a Twitter thing for sure. - All right, all right. - Yeah. - I don't know. - Yeah, speaking of which, like, okay, new topic. I hope we haven't talked about this. Maybe we have before. Is it hard to make friends in 2023?

because I don't know what, like, okay. I live by the algorithm. So I don't know if YouTube Shorts thinks that I don't have many friends. - You've been watching too many YouTube Shorts, you clearly have no friends. - Yeah, so I've been recommended a lot of shorts recently just about like, you know, this fucking street interviews that happened. And there's just been like a bunch of shorts I've been recommended about just people talking about

do you have any real friends or how many real friends do you have in your life? - Are you okay, guys? - I'm okay. - We need to hang out. - I'm okay. I'm saying I'm okay. But I find it interesting seeing all these YouTube shorts and I think like Philip Franco did a like news article recently. - Yeah, about like how like loneliness is like fucking.

- Yeah, yeah, how like in this day and age, more like more, I think, I don't know if it's more men or just more people in general are more lonely and single than they're like in like the history of like

- See, I'm not too sure about those statistics, right? Because it's like, I think about that. - I love that, I love that. - Okay, okay. - Sorry, the way you worded it was like, you know, my opinion. - You know, facts and data. - In my opinion, those facts are questionable. - Yeah, yeah. - Because like- - We're calling this episode, "Are We Low on Light?" - Yeah, because like, you know, I feel like,

with like the social media and everything, right? And the internet. And we've had this conversation like way, way early on in a podcast episode about like our online friends considered real friends, right? - Yeah. - And like, I feel, but that's also a point of context of like a lot of people who are just like terminally online do see online friends as like real friends because maybe they don't have like actual IRL friends. - I think we should discern what you mean by online friends.

Is that someone you've never met or is it someone- - Yeah, well, it could be like someone you talk to every day on like Discord or like someone you talk to consistently on Twitter or Instagram. Maybe you've met them once IRL, but for the most part you met them online through social media. - I think that changes how you look, not to get stuck in the details here, but I think if you've met someone and then you talk a bunch online, it makes way more sense 'cause there's like, okay, we've met up

And there's probably that expectation that we'll meet up again. But if you've never met up and you're only talking online, then I think there is a question of like, okay, well- - Is that a real friend? - Well, I guess it's weird. Yeah, I mean- - Well, because there's a lot of people, even in our personal lives of like, we've only talked to them online, we've interacted with them online, but we've never actually met IRL, right? But that doesn't mean that they're any less of a friend than say like us three or anyone you actually meet IRL, right? - Yeah, okay, so theory here.

So I was kind of memeing when I said no, but kind of like also half not memeing because we're friends, right? We have a lot of friends, right? - Speak for yourself. - We're social people, right? But it's kind of like the vibe I got from all of these TikTok fucking YouTube short like Rabbit Hawaii went through was that a lot of people nowadays have acquaintances

But there's very like the people that you would actually call like your real friends is like kind of like on the decline. - Okay, so then what is the border between a friend and an acquaintance? - That's okay. That's the real question, right? That's the real question. How many people in your life would you actually consider like a real friend versus someone you hang out with? And where do you draw the distinction?

in that, right? And for me personally, at least for me, it's someone that I can feel totally as an introvert, right? It's someone I can feel totally comfortable just being myself and not fearing being judged or having like having that little barrier to be like having that little voice to be like, can I say this in front of this person?

I don't know because I don't know them that. - You don't know where their boundaries are. - Yeah, I don't know where their boundaries are. So I don't know how far I can push the boundary. So I can call you guys fucking,

or whatever and I'm like, I know you guys can take it. - You have just been downgraded to acquaintance. - You're probably gonna have to fucking beat that up because of YouTube's law and everything like that. But you know, some people you're still like feeling the water about where your like boundaries are. And that to me is when I can call someone like a true mate. Someone that I can hang out with any, not just hang out, but actually talk with

talk to them about anything and not have to feel like I have to play a certain, let's say role. - So is okay now is there, well, okay. 'Cause often these surveys and stuff, they ask not how many acquaintances, how many friends you have, how many close friends do you have? - Yeah. - So that's the barrier would you say for you to be friends? And then what would a close friend be?

- Or do you consider all friends close friends? - I consider all friends close friends. - How many friends would you say that you have? 'Cause this is like a common question that you also get asked in these kind of sessions.

- I would actually say I have quite a lot of friends that I consider myself close with. - Stop bragging. - I mean, okay, here's the thing. For example, everyone who I invited to my wedding is at least like, if not like a very, very close friend, someone that I consider very, very comfortable with. - You're in like the 40, 50 plus range. - Yeah, I have like, it's,

- Okay, so- - He's got the dog in him, that's why. - But here's the thing, I feel like really, really lucky, but the reason, okay, so compared to a lot of other YouTubers and a lot of other Twitch streamers that I talk to online in the online space, I actually like keeping, I'm actually not too social on my, let's say professional side. A lot of Twitch streamers are very, very close friends with their,

fellow streamers or YouTubers or something like that. And I am not someone who spends a lot of time speaking to a lot of other fellow creators unless they're fucking you guys basically. And I realized part of the reason for that. - Fucking me. - Yeah. Part of the reason for that is just because I've kind of like with the friends I have now, with the friends I have back home, abroad and like the people I feel close to, I'm like at kind of like not a cap,

but it's hard- - I'm friendshiped out. - Yeah, yeah. - You gotta line out, you're on the waiting line. - It's hard to keep up with what everyone is doing. - No, no, I agree. - Do you get what I mean? - No, no, I agree. - You only have so much time in a day and if you're a close friend, I actually wanna be a close friend to you as well and that friendship takes effort. It does take effort. - For sure. - I also think we have to acknowledge that we're in a very unique position where there are more people who, let's say, want to talk to us than

maybe we wanna talk to other people. - Yeah. - Not saying that like fans are friends or anything like that, but you know, there's always people kind of approaching us or meetings. You always kind of like, even if it's work or not, you know, you always meet people. So I think,

having that stress removed from, you know, we never have to, I have no concern in the world about, am I gonna meet enough people? I'm like, okay, I'm gonna meet too many people. Now I gotta decide how much I'm gonna limit it, right? So I think that that's important to acknowledge when we discuss this. In terms of loneliness in general or lack of friendship in general, that's tough. I think male loneliness is,

- Male loneliness specifically is higher nowadays. If you ask how people feel, I don't know. Loneliness has to be a feeling, right? I mean, it's not like a, you are, we don't just go around being like, Garnt, I've checked out your friend list. You're fucking lonely. - I have diagnosed you with loneliness.

- People say they're lonelier. Now I don't know what that means. Does that mean they're just unhappier and they feel lonely? - But that's the thing, right? It's really hard to make- - Also we are not professionals in this thing. - No, this is completely our opinion. This is completely our prerogative. - We also live in a lonely country. - Yeah, exactly. - So understand this is completely our prerogative and you know,

and many people can take this in many different ways, but like when I saw like the statistics of like, oh, loneliness has gone up. I'm like, can you like even quantify something that is like pretty subjective? Like, 'cause you know, there's, I'm sure there are people who have two friends, but,

do not say that they're lonely because they're very content with just having a small group of friends. And then there may be some people who have maybe 10 or 20 friends, but say like, "Oh, but I don't have a hundred friends, so I'm lonely." - I mean, it's loneliness, I guess is what, it's not so much about how many friends you have or whatever that is. It's like, I guess it's just like- - The quality of the friendship? - Yeah, well, it's like they're asking these people, "Hey, do you think you're lonely?" And they're like, "Yes." And I guess it doesn't matter how many

or whatever they have. 'Cause you could have 500 friends and feel that you don't have a deep connection with any of them and be lonely, right? - Yeah. - Or be a very popular person, but feel like you can't really connect to any of those people. So I think it's kind of a talking about how many friends you have is not so much important. I think a lot of these, when I've read all these stuff,

a lot of them tend to be focused on more like how many meaningful friendships do you have? - Yeah. - That's where a lot of people, not everyone, but a lot of people get their kind of core satisfaction or a lot of the satisfaction in their life from those like,

two to five people who are like, these are the people you probably turn to the most about a lot of things. I think that's true for me as well. The more I think about it, I'm like, yeah, I often don't want to talk about all of my stuff to everyone. It's like, there's probably a few people who I would talk to you about certain things more often than not. 'Cause you're like, I don't want to have to give everyone the fucking rundown every single time. You know what I mean? Like you just want someone who gets it. You're like, all right, let's talk. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That being said, I think that there's a lot of the coronavirus definitely kicked into high gear loneliness on like a crazy scale. Also, I think,

- People growing up now have also had a harder time. Like let's say, especially people who are like just leaving high school, who then got thrust into the coronavirus where they were like, "Oh, you were supposed to go to college." - No, you cannot. - And now it's like, now you have to do Zoom. And it's like, okay, well you missed out on a lot of very important maybe social learning opportunities.

And I think a lot of people also just lost a lot of friends during COVID 'cause you just didn't, even if they didn't like fall out or anything, it's like, you just didn't hang out. And that's like, and I think as we get older, we realize that maintaining a friendship is probably,

the hardest part about having friendship, it's not about making friends. It's about, am I seeing this person enough to be on like good terms or to feel like we're actually friends? And I think that was the thing that was affecting a lot during the pandemic and it's kind of snowballed. - And I think that to me is the big thing. - Sorry, I rented a little bit. - No, no, no, that's all good points because like the reason I say that, I mean, I'm very blessed, I think with my friendship groups that I found

because one of the big reason is we have hung out a lot in the past. I've moved countries now, so I don't get to talk or hang out with them as often as maybe when I lived in England or when I lived in the same country as them. But there's always that mutual trust between

both parties that when we meet up, we can still talk about anything. Nothing's changed and things can be completely comfortable. And that's like, that's the big differentiator for me when I finally understood what it means to have like a lifetime friend, you know? - Yes.

Everyone has different fucking priorities. Everyone's doing different shit in their lives. You can't always be next to your friend or be hanging out every week. - Everyone's adulting now. - Everyone's adulting, right? And to me, an adult friendship is having that trust and respect for each other that you can have the same connection even if you haven't talked to each other for like a few months, even if we haven't seen each other for a year. The moment you hang out, you're like,

- Fuck, it's all the same again. - That's definitely for me, my distinction between a friend and a good friend. Like a good friend is someone that you can like not text or call or interact with for like months or even years at a time. And then the next time that a text or a call or a meetup is set, it's like nothing has changed. And you can just go right back to where you were in that same mentality of the last time you saw them or the last time you called them. - Yeah, I think we're also very fortunate in our position

that we don't have to work a nine to five. That makes definitely hanging out with people easier. - I mean, I'd argue we're working longer. - We're working longer, but we're more flexible. Like, that's the thing. We don't have a boss. If a friend has like a wedding, you know, we can be like, yeah, I'll come to the wedding and that's no problem, right? Whereas maybe another friend couldn't go 'cause they have work obligations.

we probably do work more in terms of like, if you're just looking at hours spent. - Yeah. - Yeah, we probably work- - We can choose when to- - We probably work a lot of overtime compared to think, but it doesn't feel like that. 'Cause we like our job, it's easy. We fucking, a lot of the time it's very, it's not tough. But I think that that's a very important distinction to make when us three specifically are talking about this kind of topic. 'Cause you know, it's,

being able to be like, yeah, fuck it, I'll come drink on a Wednesday. That's a thing that we can do and we can decide if we're capable of doing that. Whereas maybe your other friend is like, I gotta go home, it's 10:00 PM, I gotta be up tomorrow at eight. And sometimes we have that,

- I think that also plays a part in our flexibility that allows us to kind of maintain friendships more. - I mean, it's funny 'cause most of the friends I hang out with that I do consider close, I do normally do like the nine to five schedule. In fact, a big problem has been sometimes when friends have assumed that I have more free time just because my schedule

- Yeah, that happens as well. - But I find that having a flexible schedule as a YouTuber means that I get more time to hang out with other YouTubers. Doesn't necessarily, do you know what I mean? - I know, yeah. That ends up happening a lot 'cause I often,

you just can't hang out with people all the time who are working nine to fives. Yeah. So they're so busy. Yeah. And it's like, YouTube is the only people who can like, let's go fucking get lunch on a Tuesday. Right. Right. We can do that. And I think that's, yeah, that's like a very fortunate thing of our job. Yeah. This episode is sponsored by ExpressVPN. Going online without ExpressVPN is like not having a case on your phones.

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in the modern day and age that kind of can act as friendship simulators or loneliness. - Like parasocially, you mean? - Not even just like parasocially, but something to trick yourself into making you feel less lonely, even though on the- - It's called distractions. - Yeah, it's called distractions. - What? - It's like, I think we grew up when that was all kicking off. We had the internet, we had games.

And at the time there was a lot of speculation from like boomers being like, damn, these kids, they're just not learning the life lessons that we needed. And I think it's a lot of fucking horse shit.

most people manage to have a completely well adapted life. But the more it goes on and the older we get, the more I think, yeah, I mean, I had a fine time with it, but I think a lot of people probably did not adapt as well as they could have because they were so surrounded by video games. And I realized I was kind of fortunate that my parents did force me a bunch to socialize or go out even when I hated it. Like I did not want to at all. I fucking despised it. But I realize,

now that I'm older, I'm like, that was probably necessary that my parents fucking pulled my Xbox plug out and forced me to go outside. - Yeah, yeah. - Like it sucks to admit, 'cause I'm like, damn, this boom is a little bit, a part of me thinks that they were kind of right. Like I think if I had unfettered access to just playing fucking mini clip games, like nine hours a day and I didn't talk to anyone, I'd probably be a little weird. - Yeah. - And I think it's, 'cause we just don't know. We have no idea what is gonna happen from all this online,

access that, no, I'm not playing the Insta, I'm saying the fact that we're just distracted 24/7, we don't really have to worry about being lonely. 'Cause you can also like, let's be honest, like if you're feeling a little bit lonely, just fucking boot up a game and you'll be distracted until you fall asleep. - Put on a Twitch stream, watch Trash Taste, watch a movie. - And like that does it for the most part, but then I guess after a while of that, it may be that those emotions kind of creep in and be a bit too overwhelming, right? And then you're not prepared for it. It's just,

I don't know. It's a, I find that we've, we kind of, we like adopted all this stuff and all this way

and we didn't really think about how it kind of affected us. And now even I'm like, you know, I sometimes I'm watching shit. I'm like, man, I wish I just was hanging out with people instead. I'm too deep in the source. - Yeah. - I don't know, it's weird. It's such a weird thing that I'm battling with and trying to understand myself. - It's almost like you don't know what exactly you want, right? It's like, 'cause you're content in the moment of like, oh yeah, you know, this game is sick or like, oh, you know, watching this YouTube video. - Well, it's like procrastination, right? Like I know I need to do something, but I also know that,

I can fool myself by playing games for two hours. And I'm like, what is that? What is happening in my brain there where I'm able to do that? Where I'm able to like push that thing away and not worry about it. 'Cause like I was watching these YouTube videos where people would,

it was like a guy, I forgot the name of the channel, it's a really good video, in general, the Solstice channel. He just basically just coached people through their finances who just fucked up. - Oh yes, I've seen that. - And it's like these people you're watching them, and they would get into like really bad debt and they would just keep making like really bad financial choices. And then they'd be like, "Hey, did you know you gotta pay this bill to like the IRS?" And they're like, "Yeah, I know."

I just haven't got around to it. And I'm like, okay, like I feel like that pattern of pushing it away is exactly what is like kind of stems from the same behavior of like procrastination with like video games or work where it's like, okay, I don't want to deal with this problem. So I just distract myself and hopefully I feel better for at least X amount of times. I remember again, I'm like, I'm gonna distract myself again. It reminded me of like the same kind of behavioral pattern, but just way,

bigger impacts on your life detrimentally. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Than opposed to just procrastinate. - Yeah, I used to have such a bad problem with that when I was a kid. Like I always like, whenever my parents would ask me to do something or I had like some like homework obligations or you know, some obligations I had as a kid and you know, I'd always have this bad habit of being like, "Oh yeah, I'll just do it tomorrow." - Yeah. - Yeah. - "I'll just do it tomorrow, I'll do it the next day." And my mom like said it best, she's like, "If you say you can do it tomorrow, you can do it today." - Yeah. - Yeah. - And like that kind of made me realize like, "Oh fuck, yeah." I'm like,

this is a bad habit to get in, in any aspect, financial or not, any aspect, just be like, don't, it's copium. Like don't huff the copium, you know? Like you gotta, if there's shit you gotta do, then you gotta do it. - Yeah, because like, you know, even for me, like as a, I think I'm like a fucking heavy introvert, right? I think,

I'm very lucky now to be married and I always have someone who- - Fucking virgin. - Imagine being married. Like every time I'm feeling just a tiny bit lonely, I can just hang out with Sydney who's also my best friend at the same time. And I'm just like, I never feel lonely anymore. And that's just like, I know I'm blessed. And I feel that because every time Sydney takes her, Eva,

I'm away from Sydney or she's on a work holiday or something, even if it's just a week. I have like after about, after like the first three days of like the honeymoon period, I'm like, I can do whatever I want. I don't have to worry. I can watch all the anime I want and I don't have to worry what Sydney's watching and all that. After that period is over, I'm like,

"Damn, the house is really empty right now. "Who do I talk to?" And then that's the point when I start like messaging people to hang out more often. You can normally tell when I'm feeling that like void in my life because,

- I think a big part of it is that, I think it was when in university, when I first started to really feel the loneliness creep in because you know, in university you was like surrounded by so many people and I couldn't, no matter how many people I was surrounded with, I could never stop that feeling of just like,

because I wasn't so socially adjusted back then because going into like from high school to university. So like to basically combat that, I remember I just like, I had this like month period where I just tried to go out like almost every single day and hang out with whomever. - I think that's like, 'cause I did that too. - Did you do that as well? - I think that's just like a thing that every college student goes through at one point in their life.

I think that's just like universal with all college students. 'Cause yeah, I did that exact same thing. And I was just like, yeah, it just kind of came over me one day and I was just like, fuck, I'm just like not doing anything.

- Yeah. - And there's like no one around me. I should probably go out and like meet people. - Yeah, 'cause now like, I feel like, you know, we talked about our online friends, real friends, and yes, they definitely can be real friends, but I think there is nothing that can be substituted for hanging out with someone like IRL face to face. - Yeah, you need that. - Absolutely.

- That like physical connection. - That human touch. - Yeah, that human touch. 'Cause I feel like, you know, even sometimes when we talk in Discord, when we're doing like a kind of collab or something on something, the dynamic just shifts like a little bit. You know what I mean? There's something that's missing there that you don't get. - Well, that's a big reason why we want a Trash Taste to be IRL, right?

- For that exact reason. - I think when you lose that, like paying attention to each other's eye contact or body language or somebody paying attention a hundred percent, like those are all things that like really,

don't exist when you're like on a Zoom call. 'Cause I can fucking play video games and talk to someone. And I can make it seem like I'm paying attention 100%. Not that it's a good thing, but 'cause I'm like, oh yeah, it's not stimulating enough because you're not like taking in all the senses, right? I don't know, it's so necessary to have that, I think.

- I think eye contact's like such a massive thing. - Yeah, yeah. - 100%. - Remember doing like the COVID times when you'd get on a call with a mate that you hadn't seen for a while and then the camera would just be like on the side like that. You just see them, you'd look at each other looking at a screen and not looking at the camera, right? And you were talking to each other but it didn't feel like you were

I don't know what the word to use is, but there was a barrier there that I never like could get used to. - Like they're hearing you, but they're not listening. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, are you like old tab? Am I like second monitor like content right now? Are you fucking old tabbing from YouTube right now? What are you doing, man? What are you doing? And I feel like with a real human connection, there is nothing that just substitutes

hanging out in person, being there, making eye contact with them. And sure, you can have a fun time hanging out online and stuff like that.

But I feel like if you never meet up in real life and you like, and once you meet up in real life, it's kind of hard to go back to online. That's what I've noticed as well. - That's true. - Yeah. I think that's why I find it so hard to do like collabs with other content creators when it's like online, because I've just gotten so used with Trash Taste now and a lot of other content that we do where we are hanging out.

and it feels so much more genuine to me, right? - Yeah, no, for sure. - Yeah, I prefer in-person collaborations. It's definitely more worthwhile. - Question to you guys. Oh, I haven't said that for a while. Question to you guys. - Take that off the bingo card. - How long has it been since I said that? All right. How much do you think first impressions actually matter?

- Depends on the scenario, honestly. Depends on like situation we're in. - Right. - I mean, it's definitely important. I mean, there's a whole reason why everyone and their mother always says like, "Oh, make sure your first impression is good because that could last your entire friendship if they continue to pursue it." And everything like that. But also, I've had moments where I've met someone, the first impression wasn't the most like 10 out of 10 favorable thing ever, but- - Yeah, maybe you're right.

- Huh? Yeah. Like this guy right here. But you know, eventually over time, you know, you give it the benefit of the doubt and you know, you end up forming a very great friendship. Right. So, and I've had complete opposite instances of like the first impression was like a 10 out of 10, like, oh yeah, I'm going to be friends with this person so hard. And then a couple of times after you kind of start to show the real side, I guess, because they didn't show it on their first impression. And then you're just like, oh,

Yeah, you're not really as cool as the first time I met you. - Yeah, okay, counter question then to that question. 'Cause I feel like this is like the whole first impression thing is kind of like hinged on another way that I, at least I view conversation. Is it like, I feel like a friendship isn't like formed or at least isn't like,

like real, let's say, I mean, you're like your acquaintances in my mind, until there's like some shared information there. Like you both share things and that it's like an equal sharing of maybe personal information or you'd have to be like, here's my bank account details or here's a deep dark secret. But it's like sharing of like maybe emotions that could be vulnerable or maybe just kind of,

saying, "Hey, I trust you to this other person." And then they say it back. And it's like, I can hang out with someone for 10 times. And if I feel like I just still don't know them or I don't know anything about them, it's like, it doesn't mean shit. But someone could overshare on the first time and I'll be like, "That's too much." 'Cause now I feel like you're too willing to share this. And so it's kind of like, how do you share information? And I've forgotten what my question was gonna be. It was more gonna be like, okay, how do you then judge

what that first impression means, I guess. - Okay, okay. I've actually got- - Do you understand what I'm trying to say? - I've actually got a, yeah, I kind of do understand what you're trying to say. - Yeah, yeah. - Because I've had this exact same- - It's like a dance of like, if the person's too closed off, you're like, well, we're not friends. But if they're too open, you're like, this is too much. - Yeah, and it's just like, how would you make the perfect first impression

- Just read the room. - That's kind of like balanced, right? And okay, so I've thought about this a lot and my approach has changed, I guess, as I've gotten older. So when I was younger, I'd say like, when I was in like my early twenties, I wouldn't even say I'd met my first real friends until I was about the age of 24, 24, 25 actually. So I would say actually pretty late, I actually found

what my meaning of like, oh, I understand what people means when they say a true friend, right? So before I would be way more conscious about trying to set the perfect good, like first impression, like in my mind.

Like, as you said, maybe trying to think that- - I wouldn't worry about how it was coming off. I was like, I'm just gonna be me. And I'm sure that I know I'm not like a dick when I meet people. So I'm like, I'll be okay. I mean, I'll just worry about just having a good time. - Yeah, and I think back then it was because I was just because I didn't really have many friends I would call true friends. I would just try to,

- I think, yeah, I was exactly the same. I think that's very common. When you're like in your teens, everyone for the most part, unless you're like a true dickhead, like I think everyone just wants to be a people pleaser. Everyone wants everyone to like me. - Yeah, exactly. - So how do I do that? I give off a first impression that I kind of gauge maybe this is the kind of person that this person wants to see in me. - Exactly. - Right?

But yeah, go on. - Yeah, I mean, I didn't think too much about whether I actually wanted to be their friend. I just wanted more friends, you know? So I wanted to set a- - You just wanted people to like you. - Yeah, exactly. You just want people to like you. - Yeah, for sure. - And you know, that side of me has still like never gotten away. It's never nice to think that, fuck, that person definitely hates me now or something like that. It's never a nice feeling. But you know, as I've gotten older, as I've,

you know, have more friends that I feel comfortable with and everything. I just find out that, you know, I think this must be an age thing where you just find, you just have less patience with people, you know, and you have less care about trying to be friends with everyone. So now that I'm at this stage, I think first impressions actually mean a lot, right? Because sometimes do you kind of like, do you kind of tell off like, not even like,

even if you don't talk to someone, do you sometimes like see someone in like a new group, a table and you're like, I think I would vibe with you and I don't know why. Do you ever have that? - No, no, for sure. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And normally like my kind of like, you're my like sixth sense that I've guessed like you've,

honed over time, I've kind of like been able to pick up on like subtle subconscious cues where I'm like, I think I would vibe with this person based on the way they said this one sentence or the way they talk. And I don't know why, but I just have that feeling. And most of the time it ends up being true.

And it's not really about sending, 'cause it's not really about have they set a good first impression. It's more about just, you kind of get the same, you kind of get the energy of someone now that we've hang out with like enough people IRL. - Yeah, you're probably, I think it's due to the fact that like, you're able to kind of,

because you've met so many different people with so many different personality traits and you've eventually seen how those personality traits end up when they show their true selves, I guess, when you become friends with them. I think just from that, you have a better understanding as you get older of like, especially when it comes to first impressions, at least with me, I can kind of tell if someone's giving off a first impression

because they're either actually like that in real life or they're just trying to show the best parts of themselves. - Yeah, I think- - There's some first impressions where I'm just like, okay, I know you're like trying to be friendly with me,

but I can just, I have a vibe. You are not this kind of person. - Yeah. - Like in actuality. - Right. - And I don't know why. And most of the time I've got that right where I'm just like, oh yeah, you were kind of like just trying to show off your first impression that I would like because you really wanted to be friends with me and I appreciate that. - Yeah. - But at the end of the day, I'm gonna be friends with people who are honest with me when it comes to their personality. - How do you know if you're right?

- How do you know if you're right? - You said most of the time you're right when you're like, I got a bad impression of them. How would you know you're right to not trust or befriend someone?

- Again, I think for me personally, I've just been in so many situations where I've given them the benefit of the doubt and then at the end of the day, they've betrayed me in some way. And I've had a lot of people backstab me in my life because I was just trying to be friends with everyone. I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt. But now that I'm approaching 30, I've just gone to the point where I'm like, I don't have fucking patience for this. Like if you don't,

if I don't get the vibe from you that I'm gonna be good friends with you, whether that be the first time meeting or the 10th time meeting or the 100th time meeting, then I'm not even gonna bother pursuing this friendship. And at the end of the day, I think that's because I've seen enough people now and I've seen enough personality differences where I have a much better understanding now in my life compared to when I was in high school of like,

okay, are you being legit right now? Are you actually showing the side of me that is you or are you showing the side of me that I want you to see? - Yeah. - If that makes sense. - Yeah, 'cause the way I approach it is, I only have, I guess, a certain amount of social energy

So if I get like the kind of like vibe that I think, nowadays if I'm like, I think it's gonna take a lot of social energy to hang out with this one person. And then I hang out with them like two or three times and I'm like, that was kind of exhausting. Not because of anything they did wrong, just because I just think our energies are like a little bit different. And sometimes when I'm like- - Some of you just don't gel with. - Yeah, sometimes you just don't gel with someone. And that used to bother me a lot.

because I'm like, I wanna gel with everyone. And now I'm just like, I gel with the people I gel with because I can't help the person I am, you know?

- Like I'm not gonna change my personality for every other different type of personality trait just 'cause I wanna be friends with them. It's like, I wanna just be me. And if you don't fuck with me and my personality, then I'm not gonna bother trying to show the best side of me 'cause that's just who I am. And if you don't wanna be friends with me that way, hey, you know what? There's plenty of fish in the sea. There's plenty of other people you can gel with. And it just so happens that that person is not me and that's fine. - Yeah.

- Where do you think people can find friends in this day and age? 'Cause like you said, we're very lucky, right? We're very lucky to have a job where we get to meet a lot of people a lot of times. - Anime conventions. - Anime conventions.

- Honestly, for as much as we clown on anime conventions, I think, especially for people who like anime and weeb culture, I genuinely think that is the best place to meet people. - Shared interest spaces, typically. Shared interest spaces. - Yeah, shared interest spaces. Whether that be any kind of convention or any kind of meetup or just something IRL, I think is so fucking important for especially kids in this day and age that do, I think,

I think the blurriness of online friends and real friends, quote unquote, is slowly getting blurred by the day, especially with like the younger generation, because to them, online friends are their real friends in a lot of instances, right? And you know, maybe that is true. But I think again, as Connor was saying, like you need that human touch, dude. You gotta interact with people. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's always like, because now that I've had a few experiences now where I've just completely moved to a new city,

sometimes not knowing anyone. It's always like hard whenever you move somewhere new, especially if you have like an established friendship group back home, you move somewhere totally new and you're like, fuck, I've got to start from zero and find a new friendship group here. And that takes a lot of time and that takes a lot of like energy. I think the biggest, Japan was more easy 'cause like I had like Geeks Plus, I had you guys. The hardest one for me was actually probably Thailand.

Because when I moved to Thailand, me and Sydney, we knew family, but I did not have any like Thai friends at all. And you know,

My experience with that was I would just have to go to as many meetups as possible, whether it be like, you know, there's a lot of different websites that you can use for different meetups for certain specific, let's say, you know, niches or interests. And I think doing that is such like such a big challenge

into trying like giving yourself the opportunity to make friends. Because if you never go out of your comfort zone, if you are too lazy to just go out and put yourself out there and meet people that you don't know if you're gonna be friends or not, then you're not gonna make friends. - And I think this needs to be said as well of like, I feel there's this, when we say like, you should go to like meetups or like conventions to like make friends,

I think there's this like weird social pressure to be like, oh, okay, I'm going to this convention this weekend. If I don't come back with at least X amount of friends, then like I've wasted my time or whatever, which I think is just like not true. Like, I think like the whole social pressure of like, I have to make friends at conventions. - Yeah, I think the problem is if you're going anywhere,

make friends, you're already kind of setting yourself up for failure. That's how, think about every friendship you've ever had. It probably hasn't come from you trying to make friends. - No. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I mean, you know, there is no friendship that has started with, can we be friends? - Let's be friends. - Let's be friends. That's not how friendships start. Friendships start naturally, just from like, you don't have to ask the question. It's just a mutual agreement of like, yeah, you're cool.

you think I'm cool, hey, I guess we're friends now. And like, I feel like even just going to any kind of meetup or convention and maybe not necessarily coming back with a concrete result of like, I made this many friends, you know, maybe it might've been zero. I think it's still good to go to those kinds of places because you learn so many skills to just like,

interact with people and to like, you know, get in the position of naturally making friends because, you know, again, like no friendship starts with the question of can we be friends? That's not how it works. - It's less about making friends more about just finding people that you can hang out with. - Yeah. - 'Cause I feel like, yes, another thing about making friends online is that talking to people online is easy mode.

- That's like easy mode, right? That's like socializing with training skills, with training wheels in a sense, right? Because when you're online, you can kind of like, if it's via text for one, then you can have the time to think about what you're gonna say. - It's the equivalent to passing notes in a classroom. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's not communicating. - And again, even if you're on call, you can be concentrating on something else and it's just, it's not always the same kind of like vibe

as being there in real life. - Yeah, I mean, I think I was firmly in that camp for a very long time.

And then I guess just hanging out with mouse has changed my opinion a lot on it. 'Cause I'm like, okay, well here's somebody who just can't leave their house. And it's like, okay, would I ever say that's not a real friendship? No, absolutely not. - Yeah, of course. - Then it's a situation of like, okay, well, is this just like a, how I view this entire situation? Was I wrong or am I just bending the way I view it just for one case? I'm like, it's kind of weird 'cause I think that it's,

- I think it's a personal preference of each kind of person, like individual you meet. Like there are probably some people who you're fine talking to online. And there's probably some people who you're like, I don't really gel talking to you on Discord. Like I'd never wanna fucking talk to you guys online on a call. I'm like, I hang out with you guys.

I'm like, I don't wanna fucking call you guys. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I think it's a really odd distinction and I don't know what that means or how that interacts with my beliefs, but just thought it was interesting. - But that's what I mean. Like, I feel like because now those kinds of friendships are getting more common, especially among the younger people. Like I feel that line is slowly getting blurred to the point where it's like,

maybe online friends are becoming real friends just based on different, you know, like prerogatives, right? Like, you know, in the case of like Mouse, like, you know, she is an online friend, yes, but she is also your actual real friend as well, right? So it's like, where's the distinction in that? - I just think that if I had only had online friends up until that point, I would lose a lot of the ability to learn like what I think are important social skills, you know, like reading body language, reading, you know, when I say something,

did they react badly to that? Knowing that like those little cues or making enough eye contact. And these are stuff that comes in handy when you're, if we're ever filming something and there's a crew and it's like, all right, let's, you don't wanna be a dick. Like be nice to everyone. Like how do you socialize people in a meaningful way? And if whenever I had jobs or whatever, I had to talk to people all the time and it was like,

if I didn't learn social skills before that, I would have been very, very unprepared for that and possibly have made a bad impression or maybe I would have not been, wouldn't have got another job, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of the stuff, just like voice acting and stuff, like that was all a lot of connections and making good impressions. And it's like, okay, a lot of the stuff you wanna do probably requires you to have great social skills. And if the only experience you've had is via online, you might not be well prepared to then be in a situation

in real life and be kind of left to your own social skills. 'Cause maybe you're just missing out on things you didn't even consider about, right? And it's tough 'cause it's like, okay, well, how do you learn that? 'Cause there's a lot of situations where like, I think people have a lot more anxiety nowadays for a number of reasons. And it's like, how do you,

if you're an anxious person, how do you learn those things? How do you push yourself to be, to go out more and interact more? I don't know. - Yeah, for me it was just trial by fire. Honestly, it's I, 'cause I had massive social anxiety and people might not believe me, but I was like that quiet kid. I was, talking from experience, I was that fucking quiet kid in high school. I had like basically no friends.

And I just like going into university, I was like, I'm kind of tired of this life. I'm just fucking tired. I'm so socially anxious. And I just realized that if I don't commit to this 100%, I'm not gonna commit to this at all. Which is why I went to that phase where I'm just gonna throw myself in every awkward social situation I can think of. And there have been,

There are so many different memories I have wiped from my mind because I was just- - You have to fuck up. - I was an awkward little shit and sometimes I just stay awake at night and I just think about that one fucking party I went to when I said that thing to that guy and I was just like, oh my God, why did I say that? - I've thought about this so many times and I've always said to people every time, people worry way more about how they're coming off than how you're coming off.

Unless you say something fucked up, like a lot of people are just more worried about how, like again, what they're saying. So like a lot of the time when you've said something that maybe you thought was really cringe, they probably didn't even give a fuck. They were like, what? - Yeah, well maybe they thought it was funny. - Yeah, or they like pretty much paid no mind to it. They were like, oh yeah, I guess you did do that one cringe thing, but I totally just didn't care. You know what I mean?

it's easy to get in your own head with this kind of stuff. But also, I guess you can't just be like, "Just don't be anxious, just do it." - Just get over it. - I mean, the thing is- - Just don't be a botchy. Just go out. - You have to go out there and it sucks 'cause everything can always be traced back to like when you're a kid and like did,

did you get the right experiences or were you brought up in a family that encouraged that kind of stuff? Or was your brain chemistry just, were you just born different? Like, was this saying that you were just, you were gonna struggle with your entire life? Like these are all valid questions. - This is such a, we're going a bit off topic, I guess, but did you guys have a birthday parties as kids or did you go to other kids' birthday parties? - Yeah.

- Yeah, I did. But I mean, I was born in July, so I never got to have like, everyone turns up. I got like two kids coming out. - Oh, yeah. - 'Cause everyone's on-

- Mine was always on school holidays. So I always had like a birthday party. It was like, it was, you know, it started off at the McDonald's playpen, the goat, the ice cream cakes. - What's your reasoning for asking this question? - No, because like, I would always notice that the people, like the kids that ended up like growing up to high school that had like a big social group were the kids that

had like the biggest and most kids come to their birthday parties. That's, I don't know if that's just- - Is there a direct correlation with that? - That's so anecdotal. - That's completely anecdotal. You are completely right. This is bullshit database based on my one personal experience. I was just like, huh? Because part of the reason

I've grown up really not hating my birthday, but just being really indifferent about my birthday and having birthday parties. Part of the reason for that was because I'm a late May baby. So when my birthday came around, it was exam season. Everyone had to study. So I wouldn't even try to have any birthday parties. I think I had one as a kid.

And then it was just- - Birthday trauma. - Yeah, it's like birthday trauma. I'm like, if I don't invite anyone, then I don't have to be disappointed if no one comes to my birthday. 'Cause I know everyone's got exams, right? So I've grown up being like completely indifferent about it.

And it's been interesting, you know, meeting Sydney who's like the complete opposite of just like, I love my birthday. I always want to like, this is like the time I get to hang out with my friends and make it like some feel special. - Is she the person that calls it a birthday month? - No, she doesn't go that far. She doesn't go that far, but she does always look for something to make a birthday feel special. And she tries to give that to other people as well. And like,

- Seeing the other side of things, I'm just like, damn, that's such a small thing that I never got in my life. Like having like a small thing of like having the birthday feel special or doing something that goes out your way to make that person feel special. But I'm like, damn, now that I've seen

Now when I see her do it for other people and see how she reacts when I go out my way to do something for her for her birthday, I'm like, "Damn, small things actually matter." Small things matter. - They build up. - Yeah, they build up. And especially when it comes to friendships, going out your way to make them know that you're a friend or make them feel special, that's something that...

Something that I've never really thought about when I was growing up, I was like friends of friends, you know, friends of friend, but just making your bros feel special or making- - And inviting people to hang out is a very core part of friendship. You can't always be that.

a word of advice would be, don't be that guy who just waits for invitations. You should always try and make stuff. Not even if you're like, I don't know what to do. She's like, you like hanging out with them, right? - Just hang out. - Just invite them out. - Just hang out. - Inviting people is one of the most important parts of making someone feel like they're a friend. Like, oh, they considered me. Oh, they thought about me when they wanted to spend time with people. That's a really important thing. It's very easy to like, 'cause when I was a teenager, I was like,

- No, people will just invite me to things. I was the same way. I was like that passive guy. It was just like, yeah, I'll just get invited to things. I'll play video games. I'm not gonna do anything. But if someone wants to invite me out, I'll come. You know what I mean? So it's like, yeah, but then it's like, people appreciate you showing up as well. And that's very important too. But showing people that it's appreciated and that you value their time and you would like them present at things is important.

And that's something that I think, you know, this shit's never taught to you. None of this stuff's ever taught to you. You just have to learn it 'cause you're just like, all right, well, I guess this is what being a nice friend means. But also, I don't know. I felt like I learned a lot of weird things being from a small town and you learn small town etiquette and not, it's like weird. It's just weird because I feel that like- - What'd you mean? - Just like, I don't know, like stuff that,

- Was considered very normal where you're from, might not be normal where you are right now and how you have to kind of adapt to that and kind of be like, oh, okay. Just 'cause there was a gathering every week at maybe the pub

"Now I don't have that, how do I make sure that like-" - How do I make friends when there's no pubs? - Like if there was a place where everyone would just be at, 'cause there was nowhere else to go, you could reliably meet people there. It's like, "Oh, now I have to like, okay, I can't just wander into a place and meet everyone who knows everyone." You know what I mean? And maybe even just growing up with,

when everyone's from a small town and even like the kids, right? 'Cause you know, when you're a kid, you get a lot of your, how you think about things from your parents. - Yeah. - All the kids, I mean, included, you would get like a lot of the stuff fed to you from your parents. And I feel like the internet is like throwing a massive spanner into that. And I just remember thinking like the whole time when I was a kid, I was like, man,

I just don't feel like I think the same way like everyone speaks around me. And I think that's why I felt like really like outcasted for a while. 'Cause I just, I was like,

- Man, I want to do all this weird shit that I saw on the internet and everyone's like, "Oh, it's just, yeah, I like the football that my dad told me to watch." - Meanwhile Connor's there like, "Have you seen 'Poop Poo Pee Pee'?" - Meanwhile- - Shit's hilarious. - I'm like shouting at Americans on Cod and I'm looking at all this stuff online about Japan when I'm like 12. I'm like, "Dude, this shit's so cool. What are we all doing?"

- But then again, I feel like that's a very weird mindset of like, I think I'm different to everyone. And it's like, maybe I'm not different. Maybe I'm just a problem. I don't know. - Yeah, I mean, I got that feeling whenever I go to Sydney's hometown, 'cause that is a very like home. That is a very small town and it almost kind of feels like,

Oh, she's gonna hate me for saying this. It almost made, it almost felt like incestuous in a way. Just because every, I swear to God, everyone's known each other and they've known each other like from birth. - Yeah. - Right? - It's like that. - Yeah. And like everyone who's like,

everyone who's friends there are like childhood friends. And that's good. - I think that's great 'cause you are also, in that situation, there's a lot of friendly people who you're often introduced to throughout your life and you're often taught a lot of social skills that I think are really important. Whereas I think sometimes in people who are raised exclusively in cities, it's a lot more things you should be careful about. You can't just randomly go meet people.

- Can't just be left in the middle of a shopping, I don't know, supermarket all day and then your parents will come pick you up later or some shit. I don't fucking know why you'd do that, but. - Yeah. - We got up to a lot of weird shit as a kid that I would not do now. - No, for sure. - 'Cause I think the one trope, I guess, I'm gonna try, the one trope I'm missing in my life is I've never had a childhood friend, you know?

- I don't know what that feels like. Whenever I see that in anime, I see like, oh, I have a childhood friend. - There's no friends from your childhood who you have contact with? - No. - Like zero?

- Define childhood. - Like you've known them since you were a child? - Yeah, like since you were like super young. - There's like no one you could hit up and be like, "Hey, how you doing man?" - Everyone that I've known when I was like a child, like pretty young, I'd say like the only friends I've really kept in contact with the furthest we go back is probably like end of high school when we like go to university. - So like no one from like primary school? - No, not a single person. - I could probably hit up like,

half of my school, which not a lot of people. Half of my year and I feel like, yeah, we could get a drink. It'd be fun. And then there's like three that I would be able to hit up and be like, hey man, come to Japan, come hang out. And they'd be like, I got work. Then maybe, yeah, sure.

- I don't have that. I don't know what that feels like. Maybe it's just like a city thing, but you have childhood friends, right? - Majority of my friends are childhood friends. - Seriously? - Yeah, so like my mom did this like five head move when I was born because like, you know, Sydney is a big city, right? And lots of suburbs, lots of different like communities of different ethnicities all over the city.

And my mom coming from Japan, obviously all of her friends that were back in Japan. So she found when I was born, she found this like mother's group that just consisted of Japanese moms with like non-Japanese husbands. So basically they're like half food kids. - Half food group. - And my mom went, oh, this is perfect because

A, I can make Japanese friends who live in Sydney as well. And they all have half of kids that my kids could be friends with as well. So my mom would basically take me and my sister to these Japanese mom gatherings. And I would meet all of these fucking half Japanese kids who were like pretty much the same age as me, maybe.

give or take a couple of years. And yeah, like, you know, some of those people are like still my best friends that I've known them for over fuck 25 years now. And it's fucking wild. Like when I went back to, when we went to Australia last month for the convention and I went back to Sydney, I caught up with some of them and it was really weird. We were just like reminiscing, being like, isn't it weird that I've known you for like over 25 fucking years of my life. And they're like, that's, that's wild to think.

- To me, that's a long time. - To me, that's like family at that point. - Yeah, they are like family for sure, yeah.

And it's great. - I wish that was me. I kinda wish that was me. - So I am aware that I am very blessed in that situation. And if it wasn't for my mom, who again, was the genius who set that all up. - That's why she's the goat. - I basically like paid to win. My mom was like, "I got you bro." - Yeah, I got you. - I'm gonna whale on your account, here you go. Here's all your friends.

- I don't know, I think also you probably had a pretty normal upbringing, which probably helped a lot too. I think a lot of- - Define normal. - By normal, I mean like,

- Like no troubles? - Yeah, like financially stable. I guess your parents are still together. I think that's like a big thing. And then like, just, yeah. I mean, financial security is a huge thing as a child, as a kid that I fucking certainly didn't appreciate when I was growing up. I was just like, yeah, my mom and dad are always together.

- We never have to worry about money, I think. I don't know, I get an Xbox, so I started pretty good, right? - Yeah. - I don't know, I think that's a huge factor when you're growing up, right? And how secure it is. And I think definitely small town, it's a lot easier to kind of have that stability. - Yeah. - There's not a lot of weird stuff happening where I was from, at least when I was growing up. - Would you guys go back to your high school reunions?

- Sure, why not? - I miss my high school reunion, like my tenure reunion. It happened recently, but obviously I was here, so I missed out. I kind of wish I went to it, to be honest. - Realistically, I'm like, no, but then the ego part of my head is like, fuck yeah. Fuck, fuck yeah. Let's fucking go. You know what I mean? - Just rock up with two security guards, out of a limousine, be like, "Oh, sorry boys, I'm late." Take sunglasses off. - Yeah, I mean, you know, of course,

to deny my ego would be the biggest lie ever. But you know, I also think that when I sometimes I've just fundamentally, I'm just a very different person from who I was in high school. And I think, you know, when I sometimes speak to some people who I feel haven't changed at all since high school, I'm like, is that good? I don't know if that's good or that's impressive. Like I'm not like- - Well, it depends how they were in high school. - Yeah, I mean, there's some people who definitely haven't changed and they certainly should have changed. - Yeah. - You know.

- I'm sure we all know that. - Of course. - We all have that friend or person we've seen who is literally identical to how they've been living their life the exact same way since they were 18. And you're just like, God, I hate you so much and I'm so glad you haven't changed. 'Cause your life is fucking, you're a dick to everyone. - Yeah.

But you know, there's, I think it's an important thing to change and to grow and to learn maybe certain behaviors maybe you do that you could improve upon. And I think that's something that I, I think also as a YouTuber, you're like forced to, 'cause everyone is, well, you don't have to, you can be a dickhead. But a lot of people are always very judgmental of you, us, especially when we're on a fucking two hour podcast, things we say or anything like.

Lord knows that we get some heat. But then it's also like a really good thing to, in one part of my head, I'm like, yeah, that's great. I can actually, I have like a fucking dedicated list of people judging everything I say and telling me how to improve and giving me some help. Because sometimes I-

I maybe just thinks things towards certain topics or maybe my behavior towards certain things is just not as good as I'd like it to be. Or I could improve it in a way there where, I don't know, I just, I feel better about myself or maybe it's more healthy long-term. - It's kind of like a good moral,

- Not like a good moral check. - For sure, for sure. - Every now and again. - Dude, like, 'cause you know, I think, I can speak for all of us that we never try to do anything bad. But sometimes, sometimes, sometimes like, you know, you're just living your life and maybe,

you're just doing things and you're like, oh, this thing I did could have been damaging to in this kind of way to either myself or maybe people around me 'cause I just didn't realize. And you'd never have that kind of feedback loop to have that. Maybe some people point out like, hey, maybe that thing you said wasn't very good. Oh, okay. And then you're like, I'm gonna go look. 'Cause your friends sometimes don't tell you, hey man, that wasn't cool.

'Cause it just sometimes doesn't happen. And that's where real friends come in. - Real friends will come in and be like, and call you out on your bullshit. - Like, "Mate, you're kind of a fucking dick." Not gonna lie. - You need people like that, man. - Yeah, yeah, you do. Which is why, okay. One of the big things as well is conflict, right? I feel like some people will go out of their way to avoid, you know, right, so conflict is always an unpleasant,

an unpleasant topic and just an unpleasant experience. But I feel if you've gone through a friendship and you've not had like either done a little bit of like conflict resolution, you know, even if it's just a fucking stupid drunken argument, like, or something like that, it's like,

if you're tiptoeing around hurting your friend's feelings, then you will never know where the boundaries will lie. - Right. - You know what I mean? - Yeah, I think confrontation is a very important part of a long lasting friendship. And if your friend does something fucked up, it's important that you tell them they fucked up right away. - Yeah. - 'Cause then, you know, I think most people

if I told you, "Hey Garnt, that boneless chicken thing you said was not cool." And maybe you reacted kind of sour to that. You're like, "What the fuck? What the fuck's wrong with you? I didn't do anything wrong." I'd be like, "Oh, okay. Well, either I'm wrong or," which has never happened.

Or maybe this is someone who I shouldn't pay much mind to and then maybe they're not a good friend. But I think that's a great way of just learning. 'Cause I think ultimately, if someone is a really great friend, they will appreciate that you came to them and told them, "Hey, maybe that thing you did wasn't cool." 'Cause if you get confronted about something, you should take that as, "Oh, I've clearly upset this person. "Why wouldn't I wanna make this better? "Why wouldn't I wanna improve the situation?"

Why would I be getting defensive over a situation when I, you know, this person clearly feels offended over something. And if there's someone I value, there's gotta be something that I need to address or unpack. Even if you end up, you didn't do anything wrong, it's important to at least hear them out and walk through it. - Just have a conversation about it. - Yeah, walk through it. I think that's a very important part of being an adult. And also knowing when to pick confrontation.

I think sometimes you can get a little too gung ho with it and you can find too many people. - If you get too pedantic with it, then that's just a quick fire. - I think that's just something that comes with experience and age. You just kind of learn, you're like, this is really not a big deal. If I make it a big deal, I'm gonna cause more problems in the long run. 'Cause I'm sure we've had that one friend who's maybe brought something up where you're like, what the fuck?

- It's like, why is this even a problem? - Why are we talking about this? - Yeah, you're like, what? Is this an issue? We've all had that. And even then it's like, it's important to work through that and let's break it down.

- What's going on here? - Most of the time it's not the actual problem. Most of the time it's- - It's something else. - It's something else that's a deeper problem. - They're using that as a crux to kick off the conversation. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're like, there is this problem. By the way, here's the real issue. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's talk about it. Let's unpack that. Are you good, man? Are you good? And normally, most of the time when that happens, there is something not good that they might not like

be aware of that you're like, okay, that's the real problem. - Now we know the root of the problem. - That's okay, I get it now, I get it. Yeah, some people just need to talk about their feelings and shit. Some people just need to vent. And okay, so I had that like, I'm that kind of like, I had this like awful, I don't know if it's an awful personality trait, but it is like the way just my mind works whenever sometimes someone would come to me with a problem, my gut reaction would be like, let's fix it.

And then it took me like age to realize some people just need to vent about their day. - They're not looking for a solution. - A lot of people just want to have someone listen. They don't want answers. They don't want you to suggest how to improve it. They're just like, please just don't hit me up. - They just need you to go, that's rough, buddy. And then end of conversation. - 'Cause me, my engineer mind would be like, all right,

I've heard the problem. Let's not break it down and this is how you fix it. This is a step by step. - If you replied every time someone's like this problem, well, I would have done this. You should do this. - I literally used to do that and I hated that I used to do that. - I think everyone does it at one point because they feel like they're helping the situation. But a lot of the time people just want you to listen and engage with it. So just ask more questions. Not in a way of like, how can I fix this? But like, hey, why did this person do this?

So why does that bother you? Why do you feel about this? Just making people know that you're listening and hearing them and understanding them is just so important. - Yeah, for sure. - Coming back to the main topic of why we even got on this thing. - Lonerism. - Why do you think people are lonely?

- See, again, like it's a lot of it and this is probably the worst way I can say it but I think it's all just perspective based, right? Like I think there's obviously a lot of issues that we've so far discussed in this very deep podcast episode about like, you know what might be the reasons for it. But I think there's a lot of instances where I think people say they are lonely because they just

feel that way. And there is no concrete reason as to why that is. Maybe it's based on their life experiences of like, or like their ideology of what being lonely might actually mean to them. And then, you know, obviously there are many instances where it's just something that's out of their control, like the pandemic or- - Are you saying that you think

people aren't less lonely than before, but that perspective makes them think they are more lonely? - Maybe, maybe that might be the case. Because I feel like, especially in this day of social media, people are more connected than ever before. And it's so much easier to connect with people, whether that be online or IRL, right? So maybe this environment of everyone is connected with everyone at all times through social media has kind of raised the bar of what is considered loneliness perhaps.

perhaps, or maybe lowered the bar? - I think I disagree, I think. - How so? - I'm just trying to, I heard the words you said. - It's tough. - I'm trying to get them in my brain. - I'm processing. - I'm hearing the words and I think I disagree. - I'm pretty sure I disagree. - It's a really tough topic to like, you know, get a full concrete answer to. - I think I'm like a,

I think people are lonelier and it's not like a perspective thing. I think people just are lonelier. And I don't think it's like, 'cause people think they're more lonely or whatever. I think people actually just are more lonely. - Right. Again, this is all opinion. - Yeah, this is like all more. I mean, this is just based off like- - There's no right or wrong answer. - A lot of questionnaires or whatever, polls and stuff and suicide rates are up as well. And people are just, I think factually just more lonely.

what that stems from. I think it's just from like a million different issues being broken down and like feeding into each other. And the pandemic was like, all right, let's raise this to 10. - Yeah, yeah. - I think the pandemic like did a lot to make people realize a lot of things. And I just think there's,

there's always just been this less emphasis on being social. And just because I think that we've been afforded more luxuries that allow us to be less social and it's easy to adopt like, you know, more technology that allows us to be less social. And we didn't really think like, is this gonna impact us at all? Nah, it's more convenient. Let's just do it. - Yeah. - And then you have,

like Japan where they're like, "Hey, well, we've been lonely for a while. So let's just make a solution that you can pay for. Like let's just go to, you can pay to go out. Like you can pay to go and hang out with people. You can hire people to hang out with you. You can go to a bar and pay people to talk to you."

And it's like this really weird kind of like, let's not worry about why people are lonely. Let's just throw the solution. - Yeah. - And let's not address the problem. - Let's not like get to the root of the problem. - Yeah, which is like, which I think when we're talking about loneliness in our perspective, we're talking about it from a Western perspective of loneliness. - Right, which is why I'm kind of curious to be like, I wonder how much worse it is. 'Cause it's probably a lot worse in Japan, like in terms of like the rate of it going. - Yeah, I think that it's also important when we talk about it like that is to think about

where that loneliness comes from. And I think why Japan is lonely

is like a mixture of why a lot of people in the Western countries think they're lonely combined with the horrible work, life balance, urge of hand. That also comes back from even like school life where you're kind of robbed of a lot of your free time. I think it's like the reasons why the two countries are lonely are like inherently different, but also then technology is like fueling the flames of- - It's fucking it up for everyone. - This is not like a doomerism of me being like, man, technology bad.

I just think it's like, it's impossible to adopt all this technology and not think, hey, how is this affecting us? 'Cause we're just too busy being like, let's fucking, let's use it. Let's just fucking adapt it. Let's put it in. Let's fucking fuck this all. Let's do Zoom calls all the time. - I mean, I think, you know, it's the meme is like, oh look, boomer say technology bad. Ha ha, laugh at him. - The reason why they said technology was bad was totally different to why I think it actually is bad. Like they're saying it 'cause they were just like,

- I don't understand it. - I do feel that it's not, technology isn't inherently the bad thing. The bad thing is our self-control. - We're not able to adapt. - Yeah, is our own self-control, right? Because it's not like social media's fault.

Social media is just a platform, but being addicted to social media, being addicted to having- - That is their fault. - Yeah, having these tools that are available to us to combat the loneliness without actually combating the loneliness, but like tricking our brains and making us feel a little less lonely without actually having like maybe giving us

maybe us not actually going out our way to find a real human connection. That's part of like, partly on us to be like, we are too lazy to really put in the effort in. - Yeah, too many people are like blaming the tool and not the user. - I don't know, that's kind of tough. 'Cause I think that a lot of these platforms

use way more data than they ever should have to perfectly engineer solutions that like hack our brains to keep us glued. And in a way that maybe if you had, if it was presented in a different way, you might not be as addicted to it.

- So what I'm saying is I'm not trying to blame the user. What I'm saying is you need to be like aware of this. There needs to be more consciousness about this thing. 'Cause we actually see it like the amount of like- - I'm aware that it's addictive and it's still addictive. Like I can't stop. - It's not stopping me from being addicted to it. - You're addicted, but like,

I see like, I think the worst case I see with it, which is ironic, which is like when parents get really addicted to social media and like websites, it's actually like, I feel like it's like 10 times worse than when like people our age or younger people get into social media. 'Cause when I've seen parents addicted, they are,

they don't even know it's a problem. You see some parents that are on Facebook all the time and they have changed, literally changed their viewpoints based on like some fucking articles that they see on Facebook and they get like, I've seen like now families literally get divided because of some fucking Facebook posts that people make. - Well, yeah, well that's like,

I mean, that is like, I think the social media's fault because they were, you know, they knew that posting outrageous shit and they would help bump it because they were like, oh, this just drives engagement. And people engage something with most when they're pissed off. So let's keep fueling this fucked up shit and let's keep pushing in front of people. And yeah, not everyone is, you know, and I think it's their fault. I think some people are just more susceptible to...

that is just inherently like wrong or that, you know, like fake news and shit. I get not to get into all of it. I think people just are more susceptible. So there are a lot of people who are more susceptible to that than others. And a lot of these social media platforms weaponize that to drive engagement. 'Cause they also probably realize that if you get someone to be super engaged with a topic,

Oh, lights are flickering. If you get someone to be super engaged with the topic, they'll post more about it. They'll be on the platform more, looking more, interacting more. And then so it's like this kind of really like self-fulfilling prophecy of like just kind of vile behavior that they're kind of getting people hooked and keeping them in with all this bullshit and connecting them then to other people who've also been fed the bullshit as well and they're all spreading it as well. - Yeah.

- So yeah, to get back to your original question. - Sorry. - I said this earlier, but I do think just because there are more tools available right now that trick you into thinking you're not as lonely as you actually are when you're not actually forming the connection to actually combat the loneliness at its core. And that's what I think. That's what I think. - And then a double pronged attack on that is that let's say you,

you feel lonely and you recognize you feel lonely from maybe not being able to have that connection. A lot of the time, what do we turn to when we want to try and make those connections? We go online. And I think a lot of these, there's a lot of websites or a lot of,

people kind of prey on that loneliness then offer them a solution online. Be it, you're lonely romantically, his dating websites where you might get connected with catfishes or people trying to scam you or all- - Weaponizing loneliness. - Yeah, God knows what. - Weaponize loneliness. - Holy shit. - It's like how,

Tinder for, I believe it still does this, I'm not sure, but Tinder at one point in time, and again, it could still be doing this, if you were an older male, was maybe less attractive, you would be charged more for Tinder gold or plus whatever it was. - Are you serious? - Are you serious? - Yeah, you get charged way more money.

- Fucking hell. - And then they, you can look this up, Kai, but they were basically like, depending on how in demand your profile was, you'd be charged a different amount. And then they would be like, oh, you're not getting matched as much. There's this thing called a super like, or you could pay at one point on Tinder to be the top profile.

for two hours, which then they'd be like, "We promise you more matches. "It's only 30 bucks to do this." But you might be the love of your life, what's 30 bucks? And so they would kind of weaponize your loneliness. And I think that,

not blaming the platforms is, I fully blame the platforms for the predatory behavior they got away with doing. Like Tinder should have never ever been able to do that. Like the fact that they were able to use- - Charge you more because you're ugly. - Use user data to then weaponize and target people who they knew were lonely and were desperate and be like, "Hey, I know you're lonely and desperate "and you're ugly as fuck and no one wants to love you.

And you're never going to get married or find someone because we determined that no one likes you. You can pay to win. Yeah, but if you pay us 100 bucks a month and on top of that, you know, it's still not enough. You know, you can do this shit. Go on, Kyle. Oh, no, I was just going to say they made it more expensive for people that are 30s and 40s.

- Yeah, so it was more expensive people who were undesirable. - Wow, wow, ageist. Damn, I fell off, man. - And that's like a really, like that's an obnoxious kind of look at what they're doing, right? That's an easy thing to point to. But I think that a lot of the platforms are doing stuff like this where they are targeting people who they know are more lonely and more likely to spend or more likely to give them screen time. And then they use that. And I think that's something that is like something that is just so hard to address that,

is very hard to, and that in a political sense is also really hard to get any meaningful change done because they also hold a lot of power. And we also rely on these platforms a lot. And it's like if you were Googling how to make friends, Google then starts serving you ads about, "Hey, meetups near you, just pay $10 to join the platform," or stuff like that. And it's like monetizing. - Or single ladies in your area. - Yeah, or maybe, you know,

It's like you get targeted on Instagram by fake accounts from like catfishes. Like obviously that's like the lowest of the low and that's hardly anything sophisticated. But you know, there's just people always willing to take advantage of you. And that's-

That's like a fucked place right now that just didn't happen before. Like my fucking parents didn't have to worry about someone trying to fucking sign up to a dating website and charge them a fuck ton of money or didn't have to worry about if they had enough friends. It was like, no, you just make friends. You know, there's so many friends you could make and you don't have to worry about being catfished or this kind of shit. You know what I mean? Like there's just so much weird shit that we're so quick to like sweep under the rug and not address 'cause it maybe doesn't apply to us.

And I don't know, it's very frustrating. 'Cause I think that- - God, how did boomers do it? - People lose empathy. People lose so much empathy towards other people when they're in a good position. - Yeah, for sure. - It's so easy for you when you have friends to blame people who don't have friends, like you blame them. You're like, no, no, you're completely at fault for not having friends. It's like maybe you weren't set up right. And then maybe,

maybe you were given no chance in life to make friends and you were never given a good chance from your parents set you up to fail. And then on top of that, everyone's taking advantage of you. And then maybe the people who were in place to help you just failed you in every way. You know, maybe your people like teachers or people who should have been there to be able to help you have just failed you. And I think there's a lot of, it's just frustrating that people aren't empathetic towards

towards that, you know, and it's easy to sensationalize people who are fucked up and who have caused their own problems. Be like, look at these guys, they're causing everything wrong in their own life. - Yeah, so everyone else must be like that as well. - Yeah, we demonize people a lot 'cause we like, I think people who are doing well,

like we're doing well, it's very easy to be like, well, we did it. It's all us. - Just make friends. - We solved all of our own problems. And it's such a bag of like, it's so tough. 'Cause I do think that we,

as individuals, we are very proactive and we have definitely taken opportunities to try and give ourselves the best chances. - Yes. - But also we were very lucky in a lot of senses as well. I think. - Okay, but I guess you're like- - I'm going off such a tangent. - No, no, you're making like such great points. - There's so much like I could throw at this and it's like, I think about this stuff a lot and it's so hard 'cause it's so hard to determine what's tangential and what's- - For me, it's less of a,

- For me it's just like, okay, so my kind of like, this is like just like my personal philosophy, right? For me it's less of a, ha ha, look at all these people, they're obviously not putting enough effort in, you know? Obviously technology companies, like you said, are definitely predatory, especially when it comes to just hacking our fucking brain. - Oh yeah, for sure. - Yeah, yeah. What I'm trying to like, what my approach, pretty much everything in life is, is,

I can only control what I can control, which is like myself. So my kind of a whole philosophy is less of like, when I have a problem in my life, I kind of try to approach a problem of what can I do to change myself? Because I can't guarantee that I can change the world to fit into like my boundaries,

- Everyone is born with different circumstances, with different like advantages, disadvantages, and you can't always control that. So my personal philosophy has always been, what can I control in my life to make my life and myself the best person and version it can be. - That's the monk in you. - I don't know, 'cause I was-

- No, I totally agree though. - Yeah, so I'm not trying to say like, oh, don't blame the technology companies or don't blame this, don't blame that, don't blame this. I'm just like, okay, if I was in some other person's shoes, this would be my approach to it because I can't change the way that Twitter or Facebook promote their shit. I can't control the way that they,

try to hack your attention and do all this, but I can try to control myself. If I want to make, if I'm feeling lonely, then what can I do about it? I can put my, I can try to put myself in a situation where I can be more social, hopefully make more friends down the line that comes as a bonus. But the first step to me will always start with me. Yeah. I think that speaks to your upbringing.

Like I think your parents distilled a lot of really like good values into you because I just think a lot of people just don't, they just don't see the world that way, right? - Yeah. - I feel like, yeah, for a lot of people that kind of like disciplinary, you know, like self care that, you know, the beliefs that you have is not as naturally integrated into people as other people.

And it's like, I feel that's a skill that you either have to have grown up with or you just have to have like realized from a young age. - Yeah, 'cause especially with the internet when we're talking about like complex situations like this, there will always be that side where someone is genuinely in a bad position. They've been fucked over in life and they've been fucked over by those people around them. And then sometimes you see on the internet where there's definitely someone with like a victim complex. - Oh, for sure. Like a hundred percent. Yeah.

- Yeah, yeah. It's hard to like- - Distinguish. - Distinguish sometimes on the internet, just because no matter what, the internet has made us being able to connect with every kind of person from every walk of life. So my philosophy with all of this and my advice has always just been the first step is just focus on yourself because you cannot, especially with the internet,

with the scale we're working with now, you cannot, everyone's in a different situation. You can't have a one-off solution for everyone. - You can't change the algorithm on the screen, but you can change the algorithm up here. - That's it baby. - That's what it is. That's what it's all about. That's what it's all about baby. - Facts. - Yeah, I think it's just always,

- The main thing I was trying to get to is just, you know, it's always just really important to never lose that empathy towards other people. And I think online allows us often to just cut that off. We don't want to deal with it. We don't want to be empathetic towards other people, sympathetic in any way. And I think it's too easy to fall into that. And yeah, just don't. - Empathy is a thing that is losing more and more value as time goes on. - Yeah, it feels like,

a lot of the social clamp that we're in right now is like weaponizing the lack of empathy against people to kind of incentivize some, to kind of benefit a certain group of people. It's like, well, don't worry about them 'cause they did it themselves. We did everything right. We're good. Don't worry about them. Spread any fucking lies you wanna say. - And also like people just do it for like their own kind of,

selfish self-satisfaction, right? - Yeah, of course. - It's like, oh, well, I mean, that's your guys' problem. That's not my problem. I don't give a fuck about that. You can deal with that. I'm gonna live life in my own way, right? Which is like,

it's pretty fucking selfish. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people nowadays who do think that way because they're like, well, I'm already dealing with shit in my life. I don't have time to deal with shit in other people's lives. And it's like, well, I mean, you can technically. - As the goat once said, you have no enemies.

- That's it, that's such a good mantra though. - It's true, man. - That is true. That is just my life, man. I'm so glad that became a meme. If there's anything from Vinland Saga- - That's such a good quote. It's genuine. - That's why it's the goat, right? - Motherfuckers who have no enemies, man. That's what the internet needs right now, man. That's probably like my favorite meme that's come out in like the past year. It's so good.

- Oh my God. - But like, I think it's like, you know, I do definitely feel like blessed. I think I have enough self-awareness to feel, to see the spots in my life that I have been very lucky in as opposed to some things I've like worked more towards. I feel very, very blessed that I have found like a partner because one thing that fucking, that has like always been like, so like something outside of my,

Let me rephrase that. Something that I could never see myself going through is just the adult dating world, right? Because I've, okay, so I obviously, you know- - No riz. - No riz, no riz. - No riz. - I was lucky enough to meet Sydney at a time in my life before I entered like the whole professional kind of dating world. - Professional dating.

- I'm a rank data. - What I mean by that is when you are a fucking working adult and you have to manage your time and your love life. - Yeah. - For me, like I managed to meet like all my previous partners through kind of like more, let's say not natural, but more hobbies. - Yeah, it wasn't like a- - When you didn't have a nine to five. - Yeah, when I didn't have a nine to five, it felt more, there's a word that's- - Natural?

- Organic? - Organic, that's it. In a more organic way than just going on an app and being like, we are going to meet for a date at this time and see if we are romantically interested in each other. - I've never had a meaningful connection from anyone I've met on like Tinder or anything.

- Yeah. - Just never, I don't know why. - It's very rare. - I just went into it, I was like, "Oh, it's just Tinder." I just never considered it like that. I don't know. I mean, that's saying that was pretty guy in my brain where I was like, "This is just not, I just don't see this as serious." - Yeah. - Yeah. - I mean, I doubt the majority of people who use that website do take it serious, to be honest. - I mean, there are some instances where like, I have a friend from high school who met his girlfriend on Tinder

- I firmly believe you can. Tinder loves to fucking use that story whenever they can. - It's like this could be you. - I never ever went near those fucking, some people on like those really serious dating websites where it's like, you would have to answer like a 900 part survey and answer how far off of your business and stuff. - I have a mate who's on those types of websites. - And it's like that's,

I don't know to me that's like, that's too much. I'm like, that's like, now you're trying to gamify something that can't be gamified. Like there is no X equals Y here. It's like, you just, you kind of vibe with someone, just figure it out, man. - I'm farming love points right now. - But that also comes back to like a societal pressure of like, we're always taught you have to be in a relationship, yada, yada, yada. You have to get with someone that's like, I don't know, who the fuck cares? And it's like, you know, that's tough though. 'Cause sometimes people, even when they know they shouldn't be,

they feel societal pressure, they just do. And it's impossible for them to somehow get out of that. - Okay, okay. Is there a difference between a need to finding like a partner

- Okay, what do you mean? Okay, break down that question. - Is there a difference between wanting to find like a partner for life, like marriage and kids and family or just like a one night stand? - Okay, so this survey, okay. So this survey that Phil said, right? It was like,

- More men feel single and lonely. It's not just lonely, it's single and lonely, right? So are they, what does that mean? Does that mean that they- - It means they have no riz. - Does that mean that they need more riz or does that mean that they are missing a partner in life that they- - It's probably both. - I think you can be in a relationship and be lonely.

- Yes. - 100%. - Yes. On the flip side, I believe you can be in a relationship and be horny as well. It's just, you know?

- I may have shot the goal, but my wrist is still at an all time high, baby. There is definitely a lot of like married couples out there that might have lost the flame. - Literally every Japanese couple that like uses like a fucking soap plan, right? Like that's literally it. They're in a committed relationship, but they still wanna fuck. So it's generally like, what are people looking for nowadays?

like are they desperate? What are they more desperate for? Because I see, let's say a lot of thirsty people pop up in my timeline, every now and again, we see it. - We're now getting into a topic of how much is the access of porn? Is it harmful? Like is having too much porn- - Is porn damaging the youth? - I guess a lot of the times I'm, I think if anyone tries to be like, "Porn should be banned." I'm like, "Shut the fuck up."

I think there's a legitimate thing of like, is consuming far too much porn. Does it do something to your breath? - There's a limit. There's a healthy limit. - For sure. - It's just like a fucking coffee. It's like, yeah, you can abuse coffee. Like I think, but I don't think- - Yeah, I'm looking at the guy that does it. - Me. But I think like people who would be like, we should ban coffee. It can be dangerous. I'm like, shut the fuck up. Get a fucking grip. - Have a coffee, shut up. Just don't be horny.

- Don't be horny. - Going back to what you said about loneliness and horny. I think what that meant was like people who were single and lonely as in like maybe they didn't have any meaningful connections and they were also single. Not that they were horny and sing. - Okay, okay, okay. - What are you asking? - As in they were getting no bitches in every sense of the word.

- Okay, get in the car. - Okay, so let's say you're, this is so stupid. - Okay, go. - No, we're here, let's discuss. - Let's say you're one of those guys that identified yourself as single and lonely. What were you more desperate to look for? What void were you trying to fill? Were you trying to fill the horny void or were you trying to fill the connection void? - Well, I think a lot of people,

mistakenly assumed that you fell both with the same thing. - Well, that's the thing. I feel maybe for a lot of those people, loneliness can equate to either one or both. I'm sure there are some people who are just like, I don't really have interest in like, finding a partner or a wife and a husband and starting a family or anything. I just want someone who's there for me to,

you know, maybe fulfill my sexual frustrations or, you know, like maybe lack thereof any kind of human connection in that sense. And then I'm sure there are some people who are like, yeah, I'm kind of done sleeping around. I just want to find someone that I can just love for the rest of my life and start a family with, right? - Yeah, because like I, you know, in my life I have known like a few lads, a few guys as well who, you know, they would,

their top priority wasn't so much finding a, let's say a real like relationship or like a partner. They just wanted to find someone, anyone, you know? And it's like, just some like a partner just to like fill that void of not having a partner

And it was less of like, is there a real connection there? And it's more of, okay, this is a partner who I can obviously sleep with because we're in a relationship. But also they're kind of just there. I kind of just want that void to be filled. And that was more like just having someone there was more important than finding the right person or- - You mean Japan?

- Yeah, I guess so. - Like a sex friend? - Huh? - Like a sex friend? - No, I think it just means just present. Just somebody who's just- - Oh, someone's just in there in your life. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. - I've met like several people like that in their life who if they're not in a relationship or even if, you know, especially someone who has just not been in a relationship

They're just kind of looking for anyone to fill that hole. - Well, I mean, again, like that's the whole reason why like soap lands in Japan is so fucking popular. And because like people, Japan has just figured out, oh, I need someone there even for a short period of time to like, you know,

make sure and reiterate to myself that, oh, I'm not lonely. And Japan was like, well, you can't do that. Just pay to win bro. And then you got it. - It's all pay to win bro. - It's all pay to win baby. - There will be someone there for you, whether that be in a soap land, a hostess club, a host club, any kind of like fucking cafe, cuddle cafe, whatever it may be. There's so many different varieties of it now in Japan. And it's like, yep.

- Here you go, from zero horniness to level 100 horniness. We have everything on the spectrum. You can choose. It's just pay to win. - Yeah. And I've always wanted because I was very, 'cause when I was growing up, I was like, I'm not gonna get married until I'm at least 35 in my mind, right? In my mind, that's what I thought my life path was going to be. - Why 35? - I don't know, that number just felt like,

when I thought I would be ready to settle down and settle down with a life partner in my mind. Life doesn't always go the way you think it's gonna go. I thought I was going to meet my life partner way later in life and have way more time before I actually

you know, tied the knot, but I ended up meeting Sydney way earlier than when I thought I would. And I have, you know, I found someone that feels everything I've wanted to in a partner. So I, that's where I recognize I'm very blessed. So, cause I didn't have to go through the, you know, Tinder phase or just like the phase where- - The date game. - The date game where I'm working, but also I have to like try to find time to find my partner

And that's why I asked the question because I've never been through that stage in my life. I'm like, what do people look for? Are they more looking for, are they looking for a real human connection or are they horny? - Do they just wanna fuck? - And they wanna fuck, which is totally fair. I'm a guy as well, I get horny as well. I fucking get it. It's more of like a genuine question.

- I think the three of us are the only one who has experience. - I'm kind of in the same ballpark as you. I'm just not married yet. - I'm just speaking my mind out now to be honest. - But no, you just, whatever it is that, I mean, it depends where you're at in your life really. 'Cause like your priorities and what you're looking for change.

all the time. I would just go on dates 'cause I thought that was what I was supposed to do. I was like, "Oh, I should just go out and date people." That's why I was, you know, 'cause like I'm sure there's some point in your life where your parents are like, "Oh, you seeing anyone?" And it's like that kind of conversation- - Asian moms are the pros of that.

- Like that is a thing that will always be asked. And like that, and it's not even just Asia. I think every fucking- - Yeah, yeah, of course. - I think every race does this. - Asian moms is tenfold. - They're like, "Yeah, are you seeing someone? Are you dating anyone?" And it's like that little question that gets asked all the time by,

a lot of people in your life kind of, and you're always, you're always asked this in your life kind of cements this idea for a lot of people that you have to be with someone or you should be dating. You should be looking. And so I think there was never a point. I think in my entire adult life, there's always a point where I was either, you know,

dating, just looking, I guess I don't know what the fuck, messing around or in a relationship. There's always a point where I was doing one of those just 'cause I thought that was what I was supposed to do. Like I was like, oh yeah, this is what I do.

I would never question why I was doing it or what I was looking for. So when, you know, sometimes you'd be in these dates and they'd be like, what do you want? I'm like, I don't fucking know. I'm just trying to make YouTube videos. Like I'm not concerned about this. Like this is not where I'm at right now. They'd be like, oh, I want to get married. I'm like, well, I'm not the guy. You know, and a lot of people, a lot of people, you know, they're like, yeah, like you, they're like, I don't want to get married till this age. And then they change a lot. I was always the camp of like,

I do not care about getting married and I'm not getting married anytime soon. And I'd mean it to them. And I think they would be like, I could change him. I'm like, no, I'm- - I can fix him. He's just saying that now. - No, I am absolutely not. Do you know the financial implications of this? This is a nightmare to do. Like I am not doing this. - They walk in and they're like, I'm her. I'm her. - Yeah, and it's like, I think why people date is always different. Like I think a lot of people also,

and there was definitely a time in my life where I thought this was the case, where it was always associated from movies and stuff growing up that the cool guy was the guy who got a lot of girls. He used to date around, right? - Yeah. - And I feel like this idea of toxic masculinity has caused so much more fallout

than we can even comprehend, I feel. 'Cause I realize, I caught myself kind of falling into that trap of thinking that way. And I feel like I'm a pretty self-aware guy. And I was like, God, this... And then you look online, I feel like this is where a lot of incel kind of like,

rhetoric has come from this kind of stuff. And I feel like this idea has caused so many fucking problems. And you know, you've probably met guys now, like you've mentioned to this day, who still have that idea of, I should look around. I should date as many girls as possible. 'Cause that's cool. That's what a cool guy does. - It's that double standard, right? - And like, it's like,

- Honestly, when I was dating the most people, I was probably the loneliest. I was like, this is like, I'm forming no connections above like one date. Like this is such a, this is not to say that like, fuck. It was like, it would just be like, I would just go on a date a single time. Maybe nothing happened a bunch of the time. That was like 90%, you know? And then I would just be like, wow, what a fucking waste. Like I didn't even try and build a meaningful connection. I would just meet up with people one time and never talk to them ever again. - Sometimes the pussy isn't worth it.

- It wouldn't even be for like that, right? I would just be like, I would literally turn up, I would lose an entire day, spend a bunch of money and I would get literally nothing out of it. And I was like, why am I doing this to myself? Like I don't, and then after a while you're like, I just kind of want something. I kind of want to like have something meaningful. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - No, of course. - Or you're just like, hold up.

- Maybe I just need time for me. Maybe I just need to step back from all of this. - Yeah, I think a big thing is that a lot of guys feel like they need- - You can totally not. - They need to have a relationship in order to feel, let's say fulfilled or to feel like not lonely, you know?

And I'm like- - It's an easy way to think that if you're lonely, that it's the easy answer, I think, for a lot of guys. 'Cause a lot of the times, for some people, it can be. But I think for a lot of dudes, like you're saying, it's a super easy thing to go for right away. You're like, "This is my loneliness." And then maybe when you get in a relationship, you realize, "I had a lot more problems than I realized I had, "'cause this relationship is not working out."

There's a lot of unhealthy things going on here and I am woefully unprepared to address these. - It's only when you are in a bad relationship do you realize how good a good relationship is. - For sure, for sure. I'm very, very grateful for a lot of my terrible relationships. I've learned a whole fucking lot. - Same here, same here. It's made me appreciate the good thing when it's presented right in front of me. That's the big thing.

- As a teenager, you're so kind of like pressured, even if it's just like maybe a fake pressure or maybe like a fake expectation just to like find a girl and like lose your virginity as fast as fucking possible. I mean, that's the thing though. That's the thing. At least when I was a fucking teenager. - I think it was like the American

- Yeah, the fucking American Pie era, man. - You gotta lose your virginity. - You go to prom, you go into prom and you're not losing your virginity? What the fuck? - Especially at a fucking boys school, Jesus Christ. It's just every, like after school, it's like, "All right boys, we're gonna go get some fucking pussy." So I'm just like, "Bro, just don't even, just stop, don't invite me."

And now I just look back at that moment of time and I'm like, I just cringe. 'Cause I was like, yeah, okay, yeah. I'm a horny teenage boy reaching puberty. - I think losing my virginity was one of the shittiest experiences. It was one of the, just the worst. Everything, I was like, this is awful. Yeah, it was just such a bad time. I was like this, nothing inherently bad about it. It was just the most underwhelming. Everything was shit. I was shit. They were shit. Everything was shit.

- Yeah, it was just all around terrible time. I don't think anyone walked away from the situation happy. - I've heard like a lot of losing your virginity stories, including mine, and everyone's had like the same reaction of just like, that was it? That's what everyone fucking hyped up? Really, really? - No, I thought it was pretty high. - Oh, fuck, of course Joey, of course. God damn it, Joey. - Well, I mean, I lost my virginity like, I guess, I don't know.

when is the period that is like the most suitable to lose your virginity? 'Cause you know, there are a lot of instances where people are like, "Oh, I lost my virginity late," or "I lost my virginity early." Like what is that time period? - Trick question, there is no suitable time. - Yeah, right? - It's when it just fucking happens. - Exactly. - It's when the Lord deems it.

I was like, Jesus is taking all the time. Okay, thank you. - I don't think there's a correct time. I think whatever you feel comfortable with, 'cause I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who maybe rushed into it and probably had a horrible experience and probably regretted it. See, my experience wasn't like fucking traumatizing. It was just like, that was a bit shit, wasn't it? It was that kind of vibe. And it was purely 'cause I was just like, go, go, let's find a way, I gotta get at it. - If you don't mind sharing, how old were you?

- I was 17. - 17? - Yeah, yeah. - How old were you?

- 18. - Okay, I'm the oldest. I was 22 when I was- - Actually, I think considering the fact that you had like the most positive experience out of us, probably like- - Just don't be in high school when you lose your virginity, be an adult. - I'd had other experiences before that. And that was definitely like, oh, well, this is weird. 'Cause I didn't know the fuck I was doing. I'm a fucking kid. - Yeah.

- Yeah, I mean, I will say probably it's not all media and social pressure. There is a point when you're a teenager where hormones definitely creep up, you know? - Dude, for sure. - Yeah, absolutely. - And you're like, holy shit, what is... What the fuck is this going on? I need to fix this immediately. - Oh God, oh God.

- Oh God, I have such embarrassing memories. - You guys were like, you know, there at the right time and you knew the solution. It was like, okay, I know exactly how to do this. Just, you know, get laid. I had that exact same idea. It's just that I had negative risen in high school. So I couldn't get it. As much as I want to say, boys, we live in a society where it's not all in. - Okay, that's true. Oh, Joey.

- Having negative riz does not fucking matter. There are people who you are probably sexually attracted to as like a teenager, when you're both teenagers, obviously, I was preface to that. When you're both teenagers, they also probably had negative riz. It's not only the good looking people who are getting shit done. You know what I mean? - No, exactly. - I had negative riz and I'd date other people with negative riz and it was just fucking awkward.

We would just have a time. - Maybe that's it. Maybe I knew that I was like, oh, if I date someone with negative res, well, I also have negative res, then it's just not even gonna be- - Bro, 'cause just like, I'm so glad I fucked everything up when I was a teenager. 'Cause I was like, I didn't know what this was. And like one time, dude, just like learning shit, 'cause you're just a fucking idiot kid. - Yeah. - I was in science class one time and we were talking and I don't know how this conversation came about because they were like,

something, something, something semen. And I was like, yeah, only girls have that, right? And then they were like, what? I was like, right?

They were like, "Do you know what semen is?" I was like, "I'll be real, no I don't." And they just mocked me relentlessly for it. - I just know girls have it. - Yeah, but I'm like, man, I'm a fucking idiot. No one taught me what the shit was. And like, I got my whole fucking adult life, teenage life not learning what the shit was 'cause I come from a fucking small ass town and I wasn't researching this shit. - By the way ladies, I'm single. - I would look online, but I was not the kind of dude who would, like I, like dude, there was, I don't know if this is like a weird thing and I feel like maybe,

- Maybe kids get into this way earlier. Like when I was like 15, I was not Googling shit about like sexual stuff at all. I was too focused on games. Way too focused on games. - Yeah, it's priorities. - So I didn't even like, I didn't even give a fuck about porn or anything like that until I was like 17. I just didn't give a fuck. 'Cause this is not what I was interested in. So when I was trying to learn all this shit, I was going in blind. I was like, oh my God, what is happening? I have no idea what is happening. - Just like, what is that?

I just remember like watching porn and I was like, what the fuck is going on?

What the hell is this? I remember like trying to jack off for the first time. I was like, I have no idea if I'm doing this right. I don't think, I think this is feels all right. Do you remember your first time jacking off? - Yeah, I do. - I remember distinctly, I don't know why I have this memory. I was playing Halo Reach. I feel like we've had this conversation. - No, we have not had this conversation. - This is when Halo Reach came out and I remember the exact map I was playing on before I jacked off.

For the first time, I remember the setup. I just remember that like I was playing Halo Reach, which means I must've been, when did Halo Reach come out? Can we get a- - We're gonna get an exact time. - We can get an exact age of when I discovered jacking off. It was late. I didn't start jacking off till late. 2010, so I was 14, so probably it came out, I was probably like 14, 15 at the time. - Yeah, that sounds about right. I was about that age. - And I just remember being like, when I was, you know, 'cause you, how do you learn to jack off?

- Your friends just always talk about it, right? - No dude, I hurt myself the first time I did it. - Because you know what the fuck you're doing. And the only way I'd learned is because I'd heard about it from my other friends who were like, "Oh, you're Chekov." I'm like, "Yeah, me too." And I was like, "What the fuck is that?" - I was doing it like I was starting a fire. I was like doing like this.

- 'Cause I was like, I know you have to do something, but I was just like, I'll just fucking do this. - Yeah, I just remember that. - And I was like, this hurts. I'm gonna go Bear Grylls. - Yeah, I was just like, ah! Don't do that, that shit hurts. - Oh my God. - Yeah.

- I just remember the first time I tried to do it, I was like, "God damn, this shit is just fucking painful." I was like, "Am I doing it? I must be doing this." And I like, 'cause you obviously get, you get taught so much shit about like, you get taught about like sperm and stuff. And they wouldn't tell us anything about what it was. And I used to just think that like random shit was sperm. I'd be like, "This thing on my dick, this must be sperm." And I'm like, "What the fuck? No, this is not sperm. This is not sperm at all." And then,

- The first time I managed to, this is so over detailed. The first time I managed to like fucking jack off successfully, mission accomplished. I remember being like, oh, what the fuck is this shit? Oh, get this shit out of here. What the hell? This is nasty. And I didn't know that was gonna happen.

- You don't learn about having tissues. - No, no, no, you don't, you don't. - I was like, oh my God, what the fuck? - Stop, please. - I was so woefully unprepared for it. - Yeah, I don't know. Did you have like a stage, because like how I like, how I like, I guess learned because I guess I,

- I remember like getting my first time, like getting an erection, right? - I don't remember the first time. - Do you remember? - No, not at all. I feel like I just got, 'cause you know, your dick just gets hard randomly. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like your dick just gets hard randomly and like it would be like a nuisance for me 'cause I would not understand why this happened. - Whole time I was just seeing brother and sister. He's a prelude of things to come. - Yeah, so like remember the first time I got one, I was just like, what is this?

"What the fuck is this?" And then like, you know, I wouldn't do anything 'cause I didn't know how to jack off back then. So I would just like wait for it to go down and for it to pass. And I didn't get why this would happen because it would be like really inconvenient for me just to have like a massive fucking tent. - You didn't just like see boobs and were like,

- No, no. - That's what happened. - Generally, sometimes it would just like, you know, sometimes it just fucking happens. Especially as a teenager. - The no reason boner. - The no reason boner, that was just like my teenage life. And I was just like, this is kind of like inconvenient. This take up a lot of space in my trousers and I don't know why it's happening. So I basically, one time I was just like,

I'm gonna try to get rid of this somehow. And so it was a literal trial by error. First I started trying to fucking smack it away. - Fucking smack it away. - It's like stop. - Stop it. - And then by trial and error, I just realized, wait, why does this feel sensitive? I don't get it. And then it just like, oh,

- Is this that jacking off people talk about? - So just smack the shit out of your dick. - I just like, that was a cool memory that I've just completely forgotten. - Oh my God. - So we've had bear grills, we've had fucking smacking it. - Yeah. - I'm just genuinely curious now how people find this shit out.

I don't even remember how I figured out like, oh, that is not the right way to do it. I think- - I can't remember. - I think there's just so much information out there where you don't need to worry about having to figure this shit out. - Yeah. - 'Cause you could just be told how to do it. - Oh, I think I remember why. I remembered,

had the correct way to do it because I was like, my friend was like showing me this porn on his phone. And like, you know, back then- - Another thing that teenagers do that's weird. - Yeah, on the fucking school bus on the way to school. And you know, it was the flip phone. So it was like fucking 240p. You can barely see fucking anything on this tiny screen. He's like, "Check this fucking porn video out. It's pretty sick." And I was watching it and I remember specifically, it was like Johnny Sins or someone, I don't remember.

but there was the male guy and he was like, J-O-ing. And I'm like, that's how you do it? Oh, no wonder this shit hurt.

- That's not how, now I know how to do it. - I just can't fathom a world where you thought you had to do that. - I don't know, I was just like, this makes the most sense. - This is why you had no bitches. - This is why I had negative rins, 'cause I was fucking J-O-ing doing this. - Oh my God. - Oh my God, you just fucking unlocked a core memory. Because I completely forgot about this, but like even,

- I think this was like before I learned how to jack off. - Yeah. - Right? So I think I discovered porn before I discovered how to jack off and I didn't make the correlation of- - Yeah, I think me too. - Yeah, me too. - It was easy to come across. - Yeah, me too. - Because I remember like, I had a sleepover one time with my mates, right? And normally on most sleepovers,

Normally at my sleepovers, we just play fucking N64 and just play Super Smash Brothers until like the fucking sun comes up or whatever. Not that kind of Super Smash Brothers. The actual Nintendo. - The video game. - The video game. And then one time my mate was like, "Oh, can I use your PC?"

and he starts downloading porn on LimeWire. And I had no idea what the fuck he was downloading. - What the fuck? - And he downloaded this like fucking, like, yeah, you know, obviously we were on dial up at the time. So we downloaded, he downloaded this like one, like one minute clip, which, you know, still took a while. - Yeah. - And he shows it to me.

I felt like my mom's just having this realization of this one sleepover that we're having as a kid. And he shows it to me and it's like the most fucking amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. There are three of us and we would just stand, we were just all sitting back. - You look at it like monkeys. - We're just like gawping. And I was just like, I turned to my mate and I'm like, is that like a full version of this?

And so the entire night we are, we find the full version of whatever clip that he's found. It's like a 20 minute clip, takes all night to download. We stay up all night. - This is the most mid 2000s song I've ever heard. - It is, it is. Play some video games, didn't get any sleep that night. And at around, I think like,

we could start to see the sunrise out. We're like, oh boys, it's happening. It's finished. And the last thing we do on the sleepover and like my mom and dad are asleep like upstairs is that we're just all like huddled around. We're all huddled around in silence, just watching like watching this porno. And it's like, it's the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. I'm like, what?

What am I watching right now? - What is this? - What is this? Girls and boys can do that? Is this a thing? I don't understand. - Is this what Riz is? - Yeah. And that guy ruined me for my life because I was like, well, now I know, now I'm only downloading one thing on LimeWire and it ain't music anymore. - Oh God. Did you have any pregnancies in your school?

- No, because I went to a boys' school. That would have been a whole other problem. - That would have been a different issue. - Privileged. - No, but like, 'cause we had the, I went to the boys' school and then down the road there was like the sister school, which was the all girls' school. And yeah, there were some stories of like people getting pregnant in the sister school for sure. - Actually no, we had quite a big push on like sex education. - Yeah, we had that too. 'Cause I think the area I grew up in was like the, had like the highest rate of teen pregnancy in the UK. - Oh damn.

and the first is nothing to do. - Yeah. - So yeah, I remember there was like, I think, yeah, one or two in my year, I think. But I remember they just randomly, I think started really pushing it being like, "Hey guys use condoms." I'm like, "Bro, I don't even know how to jack off. How do you think I'm gonna figure this shit out? What are you?"

I don't know what, I'm trying to play Halo Reach. I'm not worried about this. - Trying to get those X points for it. - Yeah, I felt like we had these lessons and they were, it was like catered towards a very specific group in our school. I think I was just like, bro, I'm just trying to learn. - Dude, every time, like for me, the thing that annoyed me was like, you know, during sex education, they were like, okay guys, remember if you're going to have sex, which is nothing wrong about because you're all in puberty, make sure to use a condom. And in my head, I'm just like, where?

"How do you require these things?" I've never even seen them out in the wild. Who has them? Where do I get them from? You didn't tell me that shit. They don't just spawn when you think about having sex. It's like, you gotta go out and buy them, but they never taught me where to get them. So I'm like, "Well, thanks for that information. "I'm gonna do nothing about that. "I'm gonna go home and play Mario Party."

- I was turned into games. - Yeah, nothing else was happening. - Exactly. - Hey, look at all these patrons though. Make sure to use a condom whenever you have sex. - Hopefully you learn how to jack off better than we did. - Let us know down below. - Let us know how you jacked off. - We've cursed this common sex. - This was an interesting episode. It turned into- - It went from one of the deepest episodes to just like three monkeys talking about how they J-O.

But hey, if you'd like to support the show, then go to our Patreon, patreon.com/trashdays. Also follow us on Twitter, send us some memes on the subreddit. I can't wait for the memes of this one. And if you hate our face, listen to us on Spotify. And we'll see you guys next week. Bye. - An official message from Medicare.

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