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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. I can't tell you what a great pleasure it always is to talk to you. Well, vice versa. Especially in this setting, because, like, you know, we've had dinner. I mean, we've been out. We've done shows. But if I really want to talk to somebody, I want to talk to them right here, smoking pot, drinking, breaking down whatever barriers. So I'm going to try to get you...
Very fucked up. I know you taught at Berkeley in the 60s, so you must have... I never did. Weed? No, never. Even in the Berkeley in the 60s? I was never even offered it, actually. Well, you know what? There's no time like the present. No, not in public, not in... I see. Well, you won't mind if I do. Of course not. Okay. And what about a drink?
No, thanks. I've got water in there. You don't drink either? I do drink, but only with food. Oh, but doesn't that... See, I'm the opposite, because food is a buzzkill. Okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. Food kind of like absorbs the high or kills it. Yes, okay. I mean, whenever I eat, it's always like when the fun is over. Sex...
Drinking, drugs, that has to go. Because once you eat, then all you want to do is something passive. Me, I mean, I'm like a wolf or some animal that must be in your books. Why did we develop that way where we eat and then sleep? Yes.
I think many animals do that. I know, but why? It must be part of evolution. Yeah. Didn't you ever come across that? I've never thought about it. Really? No. Does it help us survive? It doesn't seem like napping is the greatest tool to help people survive.
But we do it. I mean, lions, you see them? They sleep much of the time. Right. But I guess when you're an animal, you sleep with one eye open all the time, right? Since night is a very different environment from day, and no animal can be perfectly adapted to live in either of those things, if you're good at living by night or bad by day and vice versa. And so sleeping...
is a good way of keeping out a mischief during the off period. And you say it works the opposite way for a nocturnal animal. Yes. They're not really that comfortable in the day. Hmm.
It must be hard to be that... I mean, when you're asleep, you're like the most vulnerable, right? Yes, but you're going to be vulnerable anyway, so it's better to be passive and not moving around. Right. But it's also got to be kind of a detriment to be at your most vulnerable asleep when it's bright out, because then people can see you sleeping. But there is a living to be made at night, and so... Yes. I mean, it's true, and most...
A very large number of mammals are nocturnal. I see a possum.
Around here. Yes. Sometimes. And he's very chill. He crawls outside the living room. I can watch him. Sometimes he looks up and sees me. It does not freak him out at all. He's not scared. He doesn't move faster. He just sniffs around and then goes back up wherever he is. Is this by day or night? Night. Night, yes. Night, always at night. Have we started, by the way? What? Have we started? Oh, yes. Okay, fine. I'm sorry.
Sorry. I know. I should explain. This is a different kind of... Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's the whole point. It's like, have we? What universe are we really in? But no, we've started and hopefully we'll go on for quite a long time. I know you have a new book. What is it called? The Flights of Fantasy? Flights of Fantasy. Yeah. I mean...
It seemed like something that is not right in your... I mean, I have so many books of yours about evolutionary biology, but this is really not that. Well, it is sort of. I figured it was. It's partly about how animals fly, but also how humans do as well. So it's partly the physics of flight, and it's partly the evolution of flight. So
True flight has evolved four times in birds, bats, pterosaurs, and insects. Really? You mean got better? Like better flying capabilities? Yes. I mean, they fly properly in the sense that they stay up indefinitely. There are plenty of other animals that glide.
So they just sort of fall, but in a controlled way. Lots of them, flying squirrels. And some birds can't get off the ground at all, right? That's true, yes. There's a lovely line in Douglas Adams' Last Chance to See about this New Zealand bird, the kakapo, which Douglas says, it's forgotten how to fly, but it's forgotten that it's forgotten how to fly. So it climbs to the top of a tree, launches itself off, and plummets to the ground.
So it's evolved an inability to fly, and his nervous system hasn't yet caught up with that. Wow. That's his interpretation. How does it still live? Doesn't it wind up killing itself? Well, it's on the way out, I'm sorry to say. Yeah. That's why he went and studied it. It's a book about...
Animals that are vulnerable to extinction. Jack Parr, who was the host of The Tonight Show before Johnny Carson, way back, before my time, but I heard about him. And one of his favorite things I heard was he got this film of animals drunk.
Yes. And you can, you know, birds like trying to take off and fucking it up. Yes. You know, and I guess they do get drunk on... Well, they get drunk on berries and fruits that have gone bad. Oh, right. Sure. It's presumably how we discovered alcohol as well, I imagine. Right. It's just, you know, grapes are fermented or, I mean, but you're right. It's really they've gone bad. Anything will ferment and so... Right. Right.
Well, that certainly was a banner day in human history because it changed a lot, really. Yeah, it did, yes. I mean, not all bad. No. Right? No. I mean, Romans certainly had bacchanalias and really worshipped being drunk. Yes. You know, I think they understood that it was sort of something that was
More important than just having fun, there's some sort of release there that I don't know if everyone needs it. You don't. Plainly, I do. Well, I enjoy it with food, as I say. But I'm talking about people who get fucking blitzed. There's something about people. Well, people are always trying to not be themselves. What is acting? They're trying to escape reality.
Do you try to not be yourself? No, but I'm not typical in many ways. I also never got married, never had kids. I'm not sure I do a lot of things that would be considered normal, but we all have masks, don't you think? Yes, that's right. Some of them are more profound, but I think everybody has masks.
And sometimes it's defenses, but sometimes it's just, I don't want you to know who I really am, or I'm playing a part that I would rather be than me. I know people who literally don't know their own age. They've lied about it for so long. Oh, yes. Yeah.
And they must know the year. Yes. They could. They just don't go there. Yes. I don't think they're faking it either. Yes, yeah. Now, that's kind of fascinating, isn't it? I'm pretty comfortable being who I am, I think. I don't think I'd try to pretend. Yes, you and me, we're comfortable. But I'm talking about others. Yes, yes. You know, there's a lot of...
I mean, you're what, 81? Yes. Wow, you look great. Thank you. Yeah, you don't look it. That's, it's nice if you don't, I mean, I'm 66, so like, I'd be very curious as to what you have to say about age and aging because like, yours obviously is what I'm looking at in my, you know, not tomorrow, but future.
next phase. I mean, let's be honest, it only goes one way, time. I've tried to move it. That's right, yes. It's the most irrecuperable thing, isn't it? Yes. Somebody said the trouble with prolonging life is it all comes at the end. Meaning that it's good at the end? No. Oh. Meaning the reverse.
That's funny because I like my life so much better now than when I was young, even though I'm aware of that little detriment of I'll be deader sooner. That little thing is obviously the monster that's always chasing us.
But as far as the life itself, I wouldn't go back, even if I could be younger, if I still had the brain I had then. I would hate to go back. I couldn't bear to write all those books again. Struggling through life again, I couldn't bear that. I'm looking forward to writing books in the future, but I wouldn't go back and
go through all that stuff about being an Oxford professor and things. I wouldn't go through that again. But at the time, you enjoyed it. I enjoyed it at the time, yes. Right. No, I mean, I just know that if somebody said, you know, if the genie said you could be 30 again, but you have to have the 30-year-old brain that I knew I had, I just know I'm in so much unnecessary pain and stupid things I'm going to do that I don't do anymore.
I'm so much more comfortable, and there are very few days that are shit. The only thing that can really cause a shit day is health issues, which become obviously the thing that we care more than anything else about, in a way that I never even thought about that shit when I was 30. Yes.
Well, I had a stroke about six years ago. Well, it didn't feel minor at the time, but I seem to have recovered totally from it. Totally? Yeah. Oh, you know John Fetterman? Do you know who that is? Oh, I've heard. I only just started reading about that. Yeah. Yeah. He's the Senate candidate. He's a senator-governor.
I think Senate in Pennsylvania, which is a very important state for our upcoming midterm election. Swing state is where Biden is from. Originally, he votes in Delaware. But Pennsylvania is huge. And so one of the candidates is Dr. Oz. He was a doctor on TV.
who sold sometimes very questionable… Is he a real doctor? That is the question all of America is asking Dr. Dawkins. Is he a real doctor? Look, I am a medical skeptic, meaning I just question everything. I think it's somebody, a scientist like you… I know you are. It's the only bad thing about you.
Why? You think there's only one answer about it? No, I don't think that. But I mean, you're such a hero of science in all other respects. Exactly, which is why I have this point of view. Yeah. I don't know if you know exactly what my point of view is, or maybe you're just going by things other people... No, I think I kind of do. Okay. Well, I'm not an anti-Baxter.
I believe vaccines are a medical intervention like every other drug which has some drawbacks, benefits. I don't believe that everybody has the same health profile. So every medical intervention, just like any other drug, isn't appropriate for everybody. Yes, that's true. So that's not anti-science. There is something about vaccination, though, which makes it different.
which is that it's not just for you, it's for the society. Well, that's not right with COVID. Sorry? That's not right with COVID because we found out the vaccine does not prevent transmission or getting it. So that argument is at best out of date. Well, it's certainly right for...
measles, mumps, and rubella. Well, I already had measles, mumps, and rubella. The disease or the vaccine? Both, probably. Okay, yeah. When I was a kid, that's, yeah. I had measles as a child before the vaccine was invented.
I think I've had mumps too, I'm not sure about that. Well, you know, I'm not an anti-measles vaccine crusader. I mean, do your thing. But the issue now is COVID, and that is an outdated argument. It's only for you.
And there's 16,000 doctors and scientists signed something called the Barrington Letter. Did you hear about this? Okay, well, see, stuff doesn't get in other people's silos. But that's an awful lot. And that's just the ones who are brave enough to sign it. Because anytime you go against the prevailing pharmaceutical medical view, you're going
You're intimidated, as many doctors are. So the fact that 16,000 doctors would sign this letter, it was a dissent about how we were dealing with COVID and some basic things like thinking natural immunity is superior to pharmaceutical immunity. It wasn't anti-vax. It was just, why are those doctors quacks or wrong and
the CDC and the Western medicine who said the vaccine, no, look, the vaccine obviously saved a lot of lives, but they were wrong about the transmission. They were wrong about getting it. Why are those 16,000 doctors, why are your doctors better than my doctors? I don't know about those 16,000 doctors. Well, it's true. I just know that the COVID pandemic has
been a triumph of science in the speed with which these vaccines were developed. And it's a beautiful story. Agreed. But only part of the story. As soon as the virus was sequenced, as soon as the RNA of the virus was sequenced,
immediately they got to work. And by the way, the technique of which they've developed, the mRNA technique, is then going to be adapted to other viruses when these come along. As soon as it's sequenced, they'll be able to produce it. All that a vaccine is doing is just doing the same as the immune system, but doing it in a harmless way. Well, at best, yes. That's how it's supposed to work.
It's like any medical intervention. Every medical intervention, every drug is supposed to do that. Mimic something that your body should do naturally but is not.
But as we know, every medical intervention, including vaccines, you can read the literature for all of them, will say they have side effects. So it's not exactly mimicking what your body does. And it should be anyone's personal right to say, you know what I know has always worked for me, my immune system. Now, would I say that about every pathogen? Of course not. I've said it many times. There are vaccines I would fight you for. But COVID was not one of them.
I think it, and we know from the literature, from the facts, it killed mostly elderly people and obese people. That's who mostly died. Now, there are many other reasons why you could have a compromised health situation. We don't know everything about it.
But I certainly should have the right to judge how I want to treat my own body. Yes, well, we disagreed about, I mean, I was surprised to hear you say you thought that the herd immunity thing didn't work. I mean, I think that's just... I never mentioned herd immunity. Well, I did. And then I thought you said the argument for herd immunity was not important. The idea that provided enough people get vaccinated, then the epidemic has nowhere to go.
But it didn't work that way. The head of the CDC just got like her fourth shot, I think, and then got COVID three weeks later. Well, that's an anecdote. It's not an anecdote, but it's an anecdote that is very typical. I remember when I got, I was fine for 14 months without it. I got the vaccine. Then I
Like a month later, I got COVID. It's an anecdote. What? It's just an anecdote. Okay, but I'm getting to a point. When it happened, people said, oh, wow, that's weird. That's a breakthrough case. And then it became the story changed. The news changed. The facts changed. And the facts changed to that's actually very typical. When it happened to me, people were surprised. In six months, they weren't surprised because that was a more typical... I'm not...
Again, yes, you're right. It was a heroic scientific achievement.
moment when they came up with the vaccine so quickly, faster than they thought. And it's a, it is a different technology than the old vaccines. It is a completely different way to do a vaccine. We're calling it a vaccine because it's a shot, but it's a very different way to do it. Okay. So I think it's a superior way to do it. And I'm glad they came up with that technology because there could be something around the corner that may be making it in a lab in Boston right now because they've been fucking with that.
making a worse version of COVID, where again, I would be first online. But, you know, I just didn't think this one merited that for me. And I think I was right. Okay. Well, I think we both agree we both love science. I do. Right. I think that the DNA technology that
incidentally gave rise to these vaccines is just marvelous. The fact that we can actually sequence, get the sequence of anything, any animal, any plant, any fungus, any bacterium, and it's a, gosh, Darwin would have loved it. What do you think the implications of that are for cancer? Well, the same mRNA vaccine
technique can be probably can be used to develop vaccines against certain kinds of cancer. Cancers are, as you know, somatic mutations that you say you get evolution, natural selection going on in the body.
So a cancer is evolving to get better at being a cancer. And so from a Darwinian point of view, it's grim, but it's fascinating as well. It's natural selection in action. Why do you think we have not been able to
Crack that one. Why can't you go to a doctor and the doctor say, oh, you have cancer, we know exactly what caused it, oh, and we know exactly how to... Yeah, I think it's because the cancer cells are your own cells, and so although it's easy to kill, relatively easy to kill... Invaders. Invaders, because the cancer cells are your own cells with just maybe one mutation. Right. And so when they give you
chemotherapy or something, it kills the cancer, but it almost kills you at the same time because it's your own cells. I mean, that seems like, I mean, that's what we have. We're getting better with therapies for cancer, but we still, a lot of what we have is
It reminds me of the Russian army. Let's just fucking kill everything. Yes. And then maybe a city will grow back. But like first... And, you know, see, this is, again, my thing with vaccines. Like, I don't think vaccines are evil. I just...
Until they figure out basic things like what causes cancer, and there are so many influences inside my body going on, and we don't know how they mix together, and they don't ask, they don't study how many, what kind of metals are in your body. These things really affect your health.
I know you can't quantify them usually on a chart at a regular doctor's office. They don't even ask you what you eat. What are you putting in your body? Do you live near a lot of electromagnetic energy? There's lots of stuff that isn't crazy. It's scientific. And we don't, again, we don't know what is causing cancer.
So, like, I'd like to keep it as natural as I can unless it's an emergency. I have the same basic philosophy about vaccines as I do about antibiotics. Am I glad they exist? Yes. Would I like to avoid them if at all possible? Yes, because I know I'd rather handle it naturally. That's not unscientific. No. I like to encourage science to proceed and to improve and to work further. In the case of COVID-19,
It was a case of working extremely fast. It was a brand new thing. Nobody knew about it. Learning on the job, naturally they made mistakes. Learning on the job, they made plenty of mistakes to begin with. And I'm still learning, and I probably have to go on learning. And as new mutant strains pop up, I have to learn again.
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You did hear about this thing in the lab in Boston, right? That they've made a worse version of COVID? I didn't hear that. Oh, yeah. What did...
Well, I mean, it's this, you know, gain of function. Is that what they call it? Where they think that that's maybe how COVID started in the lab in Wuhan to begin with, is that there was this gain of function. I think that's the term. I haven't heard that phrase. I've heard the theory, which my friend Matt Ridley is keen on that. Have you ever had Matt Ridley on your show? No, should I? Oh, you should. Oh, okay. Well, anybody you recommend. He's a...
great science writer. He's at the present pushing, he's written a book together with a woman pushing the idea, which is an unfashionable idea, but he's pushing it, that it did indeed leak from a lab in China. Well, of course, see, this is again why this whole issue should never become political. In this country, it became hyper-political. If you thought the virus started in the lab,
you're a Republican somehow. And if you thought it started in the wet markets with Batch, you were a liberal. That's insane. It is insane. It is insane. It's a very depressing fact that, and Steven Pinker goes on, I'm sure you've had him. I love him. Yeah, I love him too. He's
very keen on the idea, well, he's depressed by the idea that what we believe depends upon our tribe, our political tribe, our religious tribe. If you're a Republican, you believe certain things. If you're a Democrat, you believe something else. What matters is evidence, never mind what is politics. And so, okay, we agree about that. Now, did you read recently that they discovered
for the first time a bacteria that is visible to the naked eye? I'm not totally surprised. Really? They said it would be like finding a human the size of Mount Everest. Yes, yes, that's right, yes. Okay, go ahead. No, I don't know. Well, when I hear something like that, again, it just says to me,
All the people who are saying, "The science," you know, "We have the science." You don't know shit. We know a lot more than we used to. We just don't know very much, like how to cure cancer and that there could be a bacteria the size of Mount Everest. They just found out all that they were doing therapy-wise with serotonin, thinking that that was causing depres-- Wrong. There was one paper in 2006
It had wrong information. They knew it at the time. They didn't care. What else? Metabolism, they found out, does not slow in age like they thought it did. We just don't know. Science progresses from ignorance. Right. And so it's important to recognize what we don't know. Thank you. Also what we do know. Yes. And there are things we do know. And way more than we used to. I mean, can you imagine being somebody...
in the Middle Ages or even, you know, only really up until 100 years ago. And
And the things that doctors did to you made it so much worse. Bleeding you and... Well, putting dirt like in wood. One of the things that my founder and the CFI, the Center for Inquiry, which I know you've supported. Yes, great. One of the things we're doing at the moment is lawsuits against selling homeopathic remedies as drugs.
on the same shelf as other things. And that can't be right because homeopathic remedies contain no active ingredients.
ingredient. But the reason why... Could you just, I'm so sorry, but I always want to know about this, and I need you to explain it. Homeopathic, just go back and tell me what that is. Okay. Very vague. It comes from the idea that... Same. Yes, homeo. So you take what might be a poison, what might be something that makes you ill, and you dilute it and dilute it and dilute it and dilute it,
And then you, so it's the same stuff. Right. And that hints the word homeo from the Greek. Right. And they believe that a tiny, tiny, tiny amount, they believe that the more dilute it is, the better it is. And so sometimes the approved level of dilution is such that
It's equivalent to one molecule in a volume the size of the universe, I mean the size of the solar system. So if you imagine doing a double-blind control trial to test experimental against control, there can be no difference between experimental and control. They're both
So we've got this lawsuit going against that. How did I get into this? Because... Oh, yes. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, I'm sorry. I interrupted you. Sorry, I needed to know what homeopathic was before you... I think it's something with homeopathic because you said homeopathic and I was like... Yes. Before you go on with this, just tell me what... It'll come to me what I was going to say. Okay.
Well, you know, are you on a book tour right now? No, I'm not on a book tour. When is the book tour for Flights of Fantasy? Looks like there won't be one. Really? I'm here for the conference of the charity that I'm involved in. It's called the PsyCon Conference. We had it in Las Vegas yesterday.
because hotels are cheap in Las Vegas because in the basement. Yeah, it's Las Vegas. And you can go to the Teddy Bar after, you can go see a show. The Michael Jackson Cirque du Soleil one, I recommend it highly. Forget about the kid stuff. Just enjoy the music. Yes.
It's been a great conference. I gave you the Richard Dawkins Award a few years ago. Yes, you did. I still have it. Actually, I hate to tell you, it was a lot more than a few years. It was 2009. Okay, yes. Well, that was a high spot for me. I know, it's that great fossil.
Well, this year we had Neil deGrasse Tyson. Of course. Who I love. I just had him on my show Friday. I know. Yeah, I love him. I think he's terrific. He's such a warm character. Oh, my God. And what a communicator. Now, I mean, the world is lucky to have you on.
him, Sam Harris, who's coming. Who's just coming, yes. He's going to be here in a half hour. I mean, there are some great scientific communicators. I mean, I think it's very important. I mean, the night we went to that award show, as you may recall, my girlfriend at the time was a scientist. Yes. A young, beautiful one, like in a James Bond movie, but a real scientist. And I mean, I found that immensely attractive. You know, I just thought it was so cool.
And any time I had like fuzzy scientific notions in my head, you know, I'd ask her and, you know, she would like straighten me out. You know, I mean, just like you and I just had a discussion. People don't always see exactly eye to eye. No, that's the beauty of science. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Well, we enjoyed having you that year very much. Oh, it was fun. And we would like to get you involved in our setup again. Of course.
You mean it's an event out here? Like it was that night? Every year. Every year. Every year. Yes. So what do you want me to do? Like 10 minutes? You want me to do some God material? We'll write to you. You know, that is so funny about you. People, when they hear the name Richard Dawkins, like I'm sure when...
you know, just the man in the street who knows that name, the thing that comes to their mind first, atheist. Yes. Which really is like not the main part of your oeuvre. Thank you for that. I agree. Thank you. Right. It's not. No. You're almost like a, you know, a guy who got a sitcom.
You got known as the office creep or something. But he's really a great actor. Not that your God book was the office creep. I played the office creep. But it's like you got known for something that isn't the main thing. Although that book is just a fucking awesome book. I mean, I will always swear by it. That's my Bible on my book. Oh, lovely. The God Delusion. Well, you know that.
I love that. I mean, I interviewed you back in, we walked around on that windy, cold day in 2006. That was for Religulous. Do you remember? Oh, yes. But I think I was cut out of the final show. I think we just agreed too much. It was a comedy. Yes. And you were just so reasonable. Oh, it was in Avebury, was it? Yes. Yes, Avebury. It was the Stone Circle. Yes. Yes. I mean, I still love, have treasured the memory of,
But for a movie that was aiming to be funny, it was much better to have the guy who thought he was Jesus Christ. So when you make a documentary like that, you just don't know what... Is that still available? Is that on Netflix? Oh, absolutely. And still doing well. Yes, oh great. It was so embraced. Because it's funny. It was never mean-spirited, that movie. We weren't laughing at religious people. Oh, who?
am I kidding? We were laughing very much at religious people. I was going to say, yes. We were doing it in a very nice way. Yes.
So you're not going to do a book tour for this? No. Well, I wouldn't mind doing a book tour for it, but the publishers don't seem to be very active in America, which is a pity. I don't quite know. Oh, is that right? Oh, I think I do know. I think I was being canceled or something. What did you do now? That's right. That's right. It's such a troublemaker. American publishers...
was scared of the young people in their organization who are all woke to a fault. And so they didn't dare take me on. Oh, for fuck's sake. Oh, I just fucking hate this world. So do I, yeah. Oh, fuck, man. Really? Is that what... That is... My God.
I was listening to Sam's podcast today, and it's all about this woman who made this movie called Jihad Rehab. And then he tells the story magnificently, of course. You should talk to him about it.
You know, this brilliant documentary that was really apolitical, trying to understand one of those Guantanamo Bay detainees who we captured in Afghanistan. And then they would release them back to Saudi Arabia, where they went to terrorist rehab. Not that some of them were terrorists to begin with, really. But she's just, you know, it's a very human story. And of course, the usual suspects, just, you know, Islamophobia, they probably, they
They wouldn't even have to see it. It's just, you know, we've come to this place where you can't even go near a topic, certain topics, without the mob coming after you. Yes. Well, I was counseled by KPFA, which is a radio station in Berkeley, California, a few years ago for Islamophobia. Right. Because I object to stoning gays to death. It's so insane. Yes. How bad.
backward their thinking is in the people who are purporting to uphold liberalism, and then they can't condemn just the women thing. And it's way more than the women. It's free speech. It's separation of church and state. It's homophobia, like you say. But if it was just the women, if there was just a society that decided tomorrow to throw a fucking burlap bag
over every woman, like head to toe, like a tarp on a motorboat. And the liberals, what would you say about that, liberals, if it was the news in the paper tomorrow? You know, Iran, to begin covering women completely, would we just, oh, okay, well, you know. Well, they're terrified of being thought racist. That's it. It's just this, what do you make of that? This
I guess we need to have a psychiatrist here to answer that. But I feel like, especially this country, there is a segment of white people that liberal white people
for them it's almost like a kink, like sadomasochism, like this white loathing. It's guilt. It's original sin. Yes. Right. But it's a crazy, I mean, religion is a crazy thing to begin with. I know we agree on that, but
It's a crazy thing just psychologically to want to create either like a God who's always disappointed in you. Aren't there enough people in your life who are disappointed in you for real? Do you really have to create a new person who's disappointed in you, you know?
But also to fucking hate on yourself so much for stuff you didn't do. Like, I acknowledge my race, the white people, were bad in this country to the black people. But, I mean, my people didn't get here until after the Civil War, the Irish. They weren't themselves exactly welcomed.
You know, they didn't have it as bad. No, nobody had it as bad. Well, even if it was your people, you as an individual. Right. That's the thing. So there has to... I think we're always trying to find some balance between how can I...
acknowledge my racist guilt and recompense people in some way for forcing them to live in a lesser version of this country while I didn't have to live there. I mean, I acknowledge being my age when I was a kid, you know, it was just very different than it is now. And there was way more racism. There's still racism for sure.
But it was just a very different world. England, I know, is different. Because I was there in 1984. And London was a completely white city. I remember walking through the streets of London. Now it looks like New York, for the better. Yes, yes, indeed. And you have a new...
Prime Minister? Yes. Who's the first Indian? That's correct, yes. That's kind of exciting. Yes. Well, he's not my party, but at least we've got somebody who's, we've got a grown-up who understands how the world works now. Right. What the fuck, was that that lady for six weeks? Well, the reason for that was that the Tory party handed over the decision to 170,000 party members around the
I mean, what a crazy thing to do. You were going to get, they're all crazy right-wingers. And of course, they elected her. But you see, England has crazy right-wingers? I feel, maybe I haven't heard of them. Well, it only takes 170,000 of them all around the country. The decision to choose the next prime minister was handed over to this
minute minority of people, the party members. That's the Tory party constitution. I'm sure there are crazy right-wingers among the population. I meant like of the members of parliament. Do you have people like Marjorie Taylor Greene? No. But Liz Truss...
economically is the nearest approach. And so she was the favorite of the party members. I mean, constitutionally, it should be the members of... Constitutionally, it's anybody who can command a majority of the House of Commons. And so, theoretically, the king summons whoever can command a majority in the House of Commons. But the Tory party and the Labour party, too, actually, hands over the decision to the
party members who are just people who paid their subscription. They're just, and not that many of them. But don't you think your system is still better than ours?
Like the fact that with a parliamentary system, that these changes take place so quickly. Whereas in our country, it's lumbering. It's every four years, like on a certain day, as opposed to calling an election. I think it's unfortunate to have it on a certain day because then they start electioneering. They never stop. Two years. Right. But also, if you've lost faith in a guy in your system, they go. In our system, the guy's still around. Yes.
Now, of course, that can work in a bad way, too, because maybe somebody just needs a little time. I mean, they didn't give that lady much time to get out of the hole she got. She caused such utter chaos. Right. I know. But I think the American system would be better if you got rid of the Electoral College. Right. And I would think probably get rid of the primary elections as well. Oh, no. And gerrymandering. I mean, the whole thing is a complete shitshow. And...
It's, you know, very, very likely Trump will be president again. Oh, I cannot believe that. Either he will, he's definitely going to run. He will either win or even if he doesn't, I promise you, he's going to show up on inauguration day. Yes. Well, I mean, if, of course, if it's rigged, if...
if his supporters in individual states can just simply decide that... And that is... There's a lot of that going on. We're about to elect a Congress that is going to be majority election deniers. That's... That is terrible. I mean, that... I cannot understand how...
this has happened. I cannot understand how obvious lie. It's not exactly unprecedented. When Germany, not that we're Germany, we're not Nazis, not yet, not quite. Okay. When Germany went down the Hitler rabbit hole, there was a lot written about how could the nation of Schiller
And Schopenhauer and Beethoven and Goethe. How could this, because it was not like it was a bunch of dummies. How could they so... Well, they'd been hit by draconian reparations for the First World War. There was inflation such that people were carrying wheelbarrows for worthless money.
to buy a loaf of bread. Under those conditions, in a way, it's not surprising that Hitler, the full horror of Hitler, was not then known. And the cost of wheelbarrows was too good. Because you couldn't even get the fucking big pile of money there without a wheelbarrow. So wheelbarrows, that's the first thing you did. Before you got a car, you got a wheelbarrow. That's not America today. America is not
suffering from rampant inflation like that. Well, they think they are. That's exactly what the issue is in this election. They think they are, yes. Well, they are, but it's not like wheelbarrow inflation or what they're going through in Venezuela. But we're such babies. Yes. And of course, I shouldn't talk because I'm well off now, so I don't feel inflation. I certainly had times in my life when I did, where I was poor. Were you ever poor?
Oh, no, I couldn't. I couldn't. Really? Never poor? No, I don't think so. Middle class? Yes. And where did you go to college? I mean, university, whatever. Oxford. Oxford. Is that the Harry Potter one? Everywhere you go in England is Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Harry Potter. Mind you, I love J.K. Rowling, but... Well, she's in big trouble. Yes. She's another... She's brave.
Exactly. Like you. But another person cancelled. Or like, certainly put on this, in this like... Not just cancelled, but death threats and... Yes. Unbelievable hostility. And all because she believes that...
There's sort of like a default setting for humans, which would be man and woman. And we, you know, liberal people acknowledge, yes, it's not always that way. Of course there's homosexuality. Of course sometimes there's a mix-up at the factory and the, you know, genitalia don't match the, you know, usual use of them. Yeah.
But I've never met a, met, I've never witnessed a generation that was so anxious to sort of just abrogate the whole thing.
Like when you have a baby, it's just like, we don't know. Could be anything. I mean, there's a penis there, but that really tells you nothing. That's a social construct. Right. That tells you very little. A penis, it's like a sixth toe. It's a vestigial appendage of not much use. No, but isn't that her whole thing?
I think she objects to debauching language and saying, you know, if somebody just says they're a woman, they are a woman. Right, right. But she and I are sympathetic towards people with gender dysphoria. Of course. I dislike the debauching of language and saying... And this is always my gripe, is when people say, well, aren't the woke and liberals the same thing? No. No.
They're very often opposites. Like you say, this is the liberal position. We're very, you know, compassion is our byword. So it's not that we're lacking compassion. But yeah, I mean, boy, the people who go, they don't believe in science, they're
Yeah, we used to say that about the right-wingers and global warming, which is still true about them. But the left is catching up in their ways, too. I mean, there are things going on at medical schools in this country that are pretty crazy. I mean, doctors apologizing for saying the phrase pregnant woman. Oh, yes. Yes. I mean, that's got to...
bug you. It's going to change. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, colleges are... What was your experience in academia? Did you find it too ethereal, a little too pie in the sky, where people were in their ivory towers, they weren't realistic enough? That's the reputation. Yes, probably true. I liked
Ivory Towers. Of course you do. I like, I'm fascinated by things that are for the whole universe and for all time. I mean, I'm not interested in parochial little frivolous things that concern humanity. No, you're probably, John McWhorter always says, you know, I'll do your interview. I love doing your show, but I just know I'd always really rather be sitting
in my chair reading a book. Yes. I've never met him. I would like to. Oh, he's fantastic. John McWhorter. I admire him very much. Oh, he's fantastic. Yeah. I mean, no, it's not like the world and the country, even dumb old America, it's not like we don't have a nice group of thinkers and smart thinkers and common sense thinkers. It's just that everything is so polarized that if you're the person in the middle without a team,
You know, you are really going into battle ungirded. Yes. And I can see why you would not want to go on a book tour, by the way. I know you said you would. Oh, no, I don't mind going on book tours. I know. I enjoy it.
I used to enjoy going to the Deep South as well. So did Hitchens. Yes. Hitchens loved the Deep South and said, that atheist got huge crowds. Yes. Yeah. They come because they're beleaguered. They come because they...
Right. They get a chance to see who is there in their own tribe, I guess. That's why I love doing stand-up comedy in the South and places like that. And that's most of the country. Yes. You know? And they don't have a stick up their ass about political correctness. Yeah. There's lots of liberals in Oklahoma. Yes. But you're right. You come to town, they come out of the woodwork. Yes. Otherwise, they're quiet because they're surrounded by a bunch of rednecks. Yes. Trumpers. And we've gotten to this place in this country where...
You know, you can't really mix with the people who are not in your tribe. Like if you wore a Trump MAGA hat in Beverly Hills, they'd...
ticket you or something. You know, I mean, that's a sad state of affairs. A country... Yes. Do you think... I mean, we're surely not talking about a second civil war, but there's such a polarization. There's much talk about it. There's much talk about it. And there's lots of people rooting for it.
There's many people who think that we are so divided and they hate the other side. The term that both sides use, one against the other, but they have this in common is existential threat. Yes. The other side is they're not just somebody I disagree with. It's just that the distinguished gentleman from across the aisle. No, no, no. It's existential threat hates America.
Yeah. And that's a bad... But there couldn't really be... I mean, in the first civil war in America, it was between states. And so each state picked a side and each state had its own militia. And also there was a border between one side and the other. So if you captured the other side... Yes. You know... But in America now, the armed forces are federal...
And so you couldn't imagine having a civil war. You could. You absolutely could imagine that part of it. The part that you can't imagine is the part you were just alluding to. In our first civil war, it was the northern states and then the southern states. So there were forays of each army into the other's territory. But we got it. If they captured Washington, they'd win the war. And if we captured the southern capital, we would.
We're all marbled together now. There's 4 million Trump voters in California, the bluest state in the country. So we can't have a battle there. But could you have a battle, as many countries have, within the armed forces? Absolutely you could. You could have factions. Trump has factions also in police, FBI,
I never know how that works because would they obey their officers or would they each... Well, that's what you find out when the shit hits the fan. And we've seen that play out in many other countries. You know, some colonel takes over. Yes. You know, that kind of shit where it's a colonel now. Yeah.
Everything that they say can't happen here, of course it can. They used to say terrorism couldn't happen here. And then that happened big time here. And we're not exempt. Americans, they think their shit don't stink. And they think that they somehow live in this gilded cage where the stuff that other countries endure, well, no, we'll endure it too. And that could include authoritarianism. And I don't know, you know,
Well, I wish the Russian army would turn on, I mean, I wish they'd mutiny and turn on Putin. That could very well happen. I wish it would. Because the Russian army, I mean, there are reports of no shoes. I mean, like really bad shit. Yes, yeah. I mean, we give our soldiers pretty good equipment. Yes. Yeah.
Well, so if you were doing a book tour and you were on a normal show, unlike this crazy show where we just ramble, but I think it's much more interesting and I'm loving being able to talk to you like this. But what would you, what's your thing with this? How do you, when the guy says, how are you going to sell this book? What do you say to him? Oh, I see. I'm trying to help you. Yes. Yeah.
Well, it's a book for young people. Oh, it is? Yes, it kind of grew out of, I did an earlier book for young people called The Magic of Reality. Oh, I know. You know that one? Yeah, it's perfect for my level. Well, as you know, each chapter in that asks a question and then it has mythological answers and then scientific answers. So this is for, what ages are we talking about? About...
12, 13, 14, 15, and then up. And so I thought of this as starting a new version of the magic of reality, and it kind of grew. This was going to be one chapter of that new volume, and then it grew into a whole book. So, like, the kids who were, like, playing Twitch, do you know what Twitch is? No.
Oh, now you put me on the spot. I have to fucking explain it to you. But it's a game. You know what? It's not a game. It's people watching people play a game. Yeah, that's what it basically is. That's like a sport to them, watching other people play a video game.
Can you believe that? I cannot. So, like, how do you get someone away from Twitch to read a book? That's my question. I feel like we are devolving into a completely brain-rewired society because of the phone. The phone is the portal to evil. I really believe that.
I must say, I'm delighted to meet somebody who calls himself a fan, but I'm a little bit disappointed when they say, I've seen your videos, I've seen your YouTube. Oh, sure. Rather than read my books, I say, well, please go read my books. They're much better. Right. But that's the world we live in. Yes. I mean, we can't go back. I mean, it's like,
Going back to the, you know... But I really slave away at getting every sentence right. I do too. You can't do that when you're just... No. Oh, I know. Doing a film on... Oh, I know. No, I...
Luckily get to do both because I slave away getting every word right for the ending piece. Yeah, which I love, by the way. Oh, thank you. But then I get to actually perform it, so I kind of have the best of both worlds because the people who would never read it can see it. But the pleasure of taking something and getting it, you know... Word perfect. Word perfect, exactly, was I think the name of the...
software I had when I was working at WordPerfect. And that's why I like doing a show once a week, because I can take Monday first draft, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. Each day gets better. And then I suppose there are some people who can think
in a way that I can't. I mean, rappers can write songs as they speak. They can rhyme as they speak. That's an amazing talent to me. Some people can speak almost in marble prose, whereas I have to go over it. Shakespeare must have done it, actually, because he produced so much, all in blank verse. It must have come totally naturally to him, I think.
Well, I mean, he lived to be 64. He wrote 37 plays. Okay, so let's say he started at 20. That's less than a play a year. Okay, yes, okay. Putting it in verse, it's quite... But it's not all in verse. Mostly. Well, no, not the plays. The act ends with a couplet.
No, no, no. It's blank verse. It's not rhyming. It's only the couplet rhymes, but the rest of it... Oh, you're saying the meter? Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah? I can't do that. Well, I bet you you could. Maybe, yeah. Do you write your own stuff?
Well, I mean, I certainly am the head writer as far as that part of it goes. Because I like to, you know, I have to, it has to be my voice exactly. But I have a wonderful, incredible staff who are amazingly supportive. Yes.
I usually come up with whatever notion I want to do, but sometimes they do. And then they all submit a draft and I go through and find stuff there that's brilliant and steal it. It's one of the great things about having a writing staff. It's like you're a legal thief of other people's ideas and brilliance. So it's not really right, but I'm not giving it up. But okay, so this book is for kids.
Well, when I say kids, tweens, yes. But adults too. And I think a lot of adults seem to enjoy it. You don't have to sell this country on the idea of adults acting like kids. We do it everywhere. Yes, I know.
Well, that must be a fascinating topic for kids, air travel, because they like kids that automatically love planes or anything that flies. Yes. And the physics of it is the same for birds. I mean, after all, physics is just physics, and so if you want to stay up there, you've got to obey the laws of physics, but they do it in a rather different way. I mean, planes have fixed wings and birds have mobile wings. It's much more complicated, actually. Well...
I hope this is a huge hit for you. There's a lot I want to prepare you. There's a lot of kids in this country who are just really dumb. So you are not going to be able to hit the entire market. But I always think that the people who are really smart, like the top 1%,
There's nothing you can do to kill it. Like you could have the worst education system in the world. Somehow they will, that top 1% always finds a way to learn. It's almost like osmosis. Stuff either sticks and gets on their radar. Some people, just lots of stuff sticks in there. And some, it all bounces off. There's a lot of bouncing off here, but hopefully, yeah. And adults too. I can't wait to get my hands on it. I have all your books.
Oh, I wish I... Do we have a copy of it? I should have brought one. I don't think I have one with me. Yeah. I'd love to give you one. That's so perfect for you. You're a terrible salesman, as you should be. I'm a terrible salesman. You're a genius, you're an intellectual, and you're a bad man. I'm a bad salesman. And I mean that in the best way. I'm a terrible salesman. You are a bad man. Well, let me try to sell CFI to you, the things we do. I'll try and be a salesman. Yeah, you don't have to sell me. I'll be there. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Thank you. I've got to do Sam now. Okay. It's so great to see you. You're a great friend with Sam. He's great. I hope you enjoyed yourself and this wasn't too crazy for you. I certainly enjoyed myself very much. All right. Always a pleasure to meet you. Clive. What's the pool table for? That's for pool. Recreation? Of course. Clive.