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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. I feel like we met 30 years ago or something because it was politically incorrect. Correct. Do you recognize the sign? Isn't that nostalgia for you? Yeah, it is. To see that fucking sign there? I love this. Yeah, I love this too. But...
I mean, that had to be close to 30 years ago because that show went on in 1993. Yeah. And you were like, where were you in 93? You were just becoming very of the moment. You were in the culture a lot. 1993 was an interesting year because I was on one hour on the Oprah Winfrey show.
Oprah, is that what started the whole? No, it didn't actually. But that one particular one hour with Oprah,
I sold 800,000 books in 24 hours. Wow. And I was on the New York Times number one for like 84 weeks. So let me ask you a question. This is a perfect question for you. I even said to Oprah, marry me and you could be Oprah Chopra. You said that to her? That's hysterical. Oprah Chopra, yeah.
That worked better than the Oprah-Uma joke Letterman did at the Oscars.
But so like 30 years, it's hard to believe, but it did happen. It is, and I'm now 76. Can you believe it? I can't. You look great. Well, I feel good. But as Fran Leberowitz pointed out when she was sitting there, like people only say you look great when you're older, and it has to be said. It's never, it's assumed when you're 30. It's true. Okay, so like.
1993, you and I, on Politically Incorrect, of course, I can't remember any of this because, you know, all these club cigarettes. But I don't remember what the conversation was like. You might remember it better. But like the version of ourselves that was there in 1993, like what would you say about that whole concept of like evolution? I mean, you're the perfect person to ask this. Like, are you...
Are you just a slightly different version of your 1993 self? Are you a completely, did you shed many snakes skins? Not that you're a snake. Like, tell me about what your thoughts on where we are as the river passes under our feet. It's a very interesting question because, you know, now at the age of 76, as I confront myself,
the final chapters, even though I'm healthy, but, you know, the last curtain will soon draw before my eyes. No, I'm kidding. No, I mean, you don't look like you're in the final chapter. Well, in my tradition, Bill, first 25 years of life is education.
Second 25 years is fame, fortune, family, which I did. Third 25 years is giving back. And the fourth is actually preparing for death and finding yourself questioning and answering your question about identity. I've come to the conclusion there's no such thing. I mean, you say, what is your identity? Fertilized egg or...
zygote, embryo, baby, toddler, teenager,
young adult, mature adult, guy with Alzheimer's. Which one is you? Which one is you? - Well, I mean, you seem fixated on a bad ending. I mean, first, you seem fixated on a bad ending. - No, no, no, I'm not, because my tradition, actually, you prepare for a happy ending. - A happy ending, that would be a good ending. - And that happy ending is you have a party. - That's all I wanna die, in a massage parlor. - You have a party, you celebrate, you say goodbye,
- But you're not there for the party. - And then you close your, no, no, you know when you're gonna die. - Oh, you do? - You close your-- - But you don't. - I do. - You do? - Well, of course. - What? - I plan to die in meditation. - When you're, do you know how old you're gonna be when you're gonna die? - Yeah, but I'm not telling. - You know? - Yeah. - How do you think you know? - 'Cause I'm self-aware.
because you're self-aware. You know, I could take offense at this kind of stuff. I don't because I like you. I look forward to this chapter. It's part of my tradition for thousands of years. No, the part I could take offense about is the part about I know things you don't. I have powers of
knowing things and you don't I'm sorry Deepak I love you but like you don't know things I could not possibly know I know the statistical likelihood of events that's different than knowing I know that too I can read that I can google that's how we base everything Bayesian mathematics but you're saying you know what year you're going to die and you fucking don't you could die leaving this room okay
Or you could die in 30 years. I'm not here to argue with you. I'm just here to say that I'm in my final chapter and I'm looking forward to this phase of my life. Okay, look, I know you're probably not like caring about this, but maybe you would more if you were single. It matters more perhaps then. But there's nothing about you.
I just saw you. I haven't seen you in all these years. I saw you standing over there. You were backwards to me when I first walked in. And I was like, where's Deepak? Because I didn't think that was you. Because you just don't look old. You don't move old. You know, you don't have an old energy about you. So until you do, let's not shovel dirt on the grave. I mean, look, death...
is always looming. I agree. I'm 67. That's not young. There's been a lot of death around me lately. People I know who've died. So it's been on my mind. And look, my four quarters of life may be different than yours.
Giving back, I think, is great. The fourth one, I'm more into like 75. You know, I think that's when I'm going to start with the Viagra. So, you know, I know, but but when I look at death and I do, you know, yes, you're right. When you're our age, you are aware of a monster chasing you.
Maybe you don't look at it as a monster. I do because I don't want to die because I'm having a good time. It all has to do with identity. Meaning? What dies. What dies? You mean what dies when your body dies? Right. Because you believe that the spirit is living on. I believe that there's a fundamental reality that transcends what we call the body and the mind and the experience of life.
This, and this is obviously a lucid dream. It's not even real. If I asked you what happened to your childhood, you'd say it's a dream. But if I asked you what happened to this morning, it's a dream. By the time you hear these words, they don't exist.
So the whole thing is a dream. You know, Wittgenstein, the German philosopher, he said, our life is a dream. Once in a while, we wake up enough to know that we are dreaming. So this fourth chapter is about waking up from the dream.
I would say two things there. One, and I mean this in a very complimentary way, but I don't know. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Because I don't know. This thing about... This might clarify things for you. I hope so. But if you took something like, say... You don't do any drugs. Psilocybin. Psilocybin? Yeah. Are you a fan?
I'm the biggest promoter of psychedelics in the world today. Promoter? You mean you're holding? No, no, no, no. The scientific research and the public awareness of the value of psychedelics. Let's open a store together. Let's sell some shit. You can open a store and I'll support the research. Because you're also a capitalist, let's not lie. I mean, how many books have you written? Ninety-something. Ninety-something? Yeah. Ninety? Yeah.
Holy shit from Shinoah. That's a lot of books. That's like, since what year? Because this has got to be like two a year. 1980 was my first book. Wow. This is like Elvis used to put out albums like this. Just a lot of material. Let's talk about You're Getting High.
Would you like some? No, not right now. I'm already stoned. I'm stoned with life. Because it's just a dream. It's just a dream. Life is just a dream. You know, that thing couldn't be true. You know, when I was 17, just so you know. It was a very good year? It was the most amazing year. Because I had just, in India, you enter medical school after two years of pre-med. Not four years. So I was only 17. Okay.
I joined this very prestigious school funded by capitalists, Rockefeller and American institutions. Doesn't make them bad people. And we had Harvard professors. And so my first year of medical school, I was asked to participate in an experiment with controls. So students from Harvard, students from my class, and we all took LSD twice, twice.
So my first experience at the age of 17 was anxiety because the same question came up. What is life all about? Is it a dream? Am I in a lucid dream in a vivid now? And I was anxious, but then I tried it again. And this time, and this really altered my entire life. This time what happened is they had subjects
under experiment, taking LSD, but doing different things. So, you know, listening to music, dancing, smoking, maybe other stuff. I was assigned to look at a poster of Mother Teresa. And this is, remember, the year is 1978.
Okay. And I'm looking at this poster. Who worked in India, right? Mother Teresa was in India. Yeah, yeah, she was in India. I mean, she wasn't Indian, but that's where she heard the ministry. Yeah, that's right. And the rumor, the gossip, was that she kissed children who had leprosy and licked their wounds and they would be healed. Now, I didn't believe any of that, but looking at the poster and under the influence of LST,
I had the most intense experience of compassion. And it changed my entire trajectory of life. I wanted to be a healer and a compassionate doctor. Just from hearing this story. Just from hearing about her doing it. Just from watching the poster.
and being under the influence of LSD. - Right, but also knowing that she had licked these people's feet. - Of course, the wounds. Now, you will say, 71, we are in 2023, so this is over 50 years, over half a century. Now we know epigenetically
epigenetically, that emotions, and this has been my life's work, that emotions influence everything in their body. We pretend to be rational creatures. We are bristling with emotion. We are full of rage, anger, resentment, guilt, depression. But we also have access to the opposite. And there's biological function.
Your biology changes. Your brain changes every time you experience... Did you ever meet Mother Teresa? Once. You did. You actually met her after this. After this. And what did you say to her? Did you say, I'm a huge fan. Your feet licking changed my life. Do you know... Not actually. Wound licking. Wound licking. Right. Anyone can lick feet. The Pope does that. Okay. Wound licking. Yeah, that is some serious compassion. But
But did you know this about Mother Teresa? First of all, when she died, she only had two possessions. She had a blanket and a bucket. And Biden tried to tax the bucket. No, I don't know why. California would, but not. The other thing is, do you know that she had a crisis of faith? Of course. If you don't have a crisis, you're not human. Okay, but do you remember what year that was?
Just before she died. I thought it was something like 79, but I could be wrong. No, I think it was later. Listen, Jesus had a crisis of faith. Who? The guy who started the whole thing. The whole thing. What do you mean started? He started a joke. No, actually, there are three pivotal moments in his life, which I find very interesting. The first is he falters when he's carrying the cross.
Well, he tripped. He's carrying a cross. Joseph of Arimathea tries to help him, and he says, no, I must bear my own cross.
Okay. Number one. Number two, he has this crisis of faith when he says, why did you desert me? And number three, forgive them for they know not what they do. Those three are very pivotal moments in a person's existential dark night of the soul. That's interesting. First of all,
The second one you cite is only in one of the Gospels. It doesn't matter. We don't even know who wrote the Gospels. The whole thing doesn't matter because it's all a fable. Everything is a fable. Oh, Jesus. Your job is actually...
I'm having a crisis of faith right now. No, but, oh, Mother Teresa. So I thought it was so interesting. Whatever year it was, Mother Teresa, who by that time was super famous as like the ultimate saint on earth. And she has this crisis of faith. Oh, no, no. I know what it was. After she died, she left.
She left the church a very specific request. Do not print my letters. The second she died, they printed her letters. And that's what we found. That's what it was. We found out that when she did die, she had a crisis of faith. There was a year she was just like drunk dialing old boyfriends. She started stripping under the name Original Cindy. I don't believe that. No, it's a joke. Of course it's a joke. Okay, so...
Let me ask you this, because you seem to know a lot about Jesus. I've written three books. About Jesus. Well, two about Jesus. But not as a Christian. Well, I've written books on Muhammad, Jesus, Buddha. But you're not a Christian. All the prophets of the Old Testament and all the luminaries in spirituality through the ages. Answer the question, Counselor. You're not a Christian, though.
I don't think Jesus was a Christian. He wasn't. He was a Jew. We know that. That's right. Okay. So why are you avoiding the question? I'm not. Yes or no, sir? I don't belong to any religious institution. That would have no...
Or, you know, I think what you call religious morality is just jealousy with the hero. It's the domain of cunning hypocrites. But there is a certain kind of morality that comes from authentic experience of transcendence.
And there's an emergence of platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, love, compassion, joy, empathy, equanimity, and the loss of the fear of death. That is the essential spiritual experience. Platonic values, transcendence, and loss of the fear of death. That's a nice thing. I'm going to sign on to that one.
The ultimate experience is not fearing death, right? Because I don't think I'll ever get there. Like I said, I see it as a monster that's chasing me. And some people's way to deal with that is to not be afraid of the monster anymore.
My way to deal with it is keep running. Yeah, but there comes a point when you will not be able to run. So I hear. Death is stalking you. You're on death row. The only uncertainty is the method of execution and the length of reprieve. You're right. Look behind you. The prince of death is there. Look again. He's closer.
So get on with it. Accept it. You know, I was seven years old. This is a very, there are two important stories I'm telling you. One of Mother Teresa, but the other one is when I was six and a half. My father was in England and I was with my grandfather and my grandmother, seven years of age. My little brother then was four and a half years of age.
He later became the dean of education at Harvard Medical School. Really? My younger brother. So one night we get a telegram. That's what your younger brother is? The dean of Harvard? He was the dean of education for Harvard Medical School. Wow. Do you and your brother agree on all this? Because he seems to be more... He now agrees with me. He now agrees with you? A little bit. A little bit. So listen to the story. I will. We get a telegram that my father...
has been inducted into the Royal College of Physicians, which, by the way, I was recently also. Very prestigious. So my grandfather, who was an army sergeant from the First World War. Really? Yeah. He climbs up, goes up to the rooftop, fires a gun into the sky to celebrate. That was his thing. As one does in Western Asia. Then he takes me and my brother, um,
to see a movie, Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves. Ali Baba. And the 40 Thieves. Then he takes us to Carnival. Then he takes us to a restaurant. He's so happy and excited. And in the middle of the night, he dies. And my memory is, I am being carried by the servants to a neighbor's house, and I can hear the wailing of women in the house. Grandparents, etc., grandmother. Next day, he's taken to cremation.
His ashes are brought in a jar about this big. And one of my uncles says, what's a human being? Yesterday, he was with these kids celebrating. And now he's a bunch of ashes. Wow. And I had my first existential crisis. Yeah. Okay. And my brother started to lose his skin.
And my grandparents took him. How do you lose your skin? He started peeling off like a snake skin. What? Yeah. And he had bleeding scars. And they took him to every doctor.
Nobody could diagnose. Still, some local healer said he's missing his parents. He's feeling vulnerable. And as soon as his parents come back, he'll be fine. And so it happened. So in retrospect, that was mind-body medicine, age six years. I certainly believe in the mind-body connection. I'm always preaching to people. If you don't, you can't wiggle your toes.
Correct. Or do anything. Well, yes. But way further than that, I believe that medicine, the way we practice medicine in America... It's horrible. I'm a major critic. Maybe that's something I think where we're very aligned. It's a business. It's not a... It's a business. I mean, not that there aren't good doctors, and thank God that they have a lot of things that they do have that I hope I will never have to avail myself of. But Western medicine is best at, like, it does nothing to keep you healthy. It's great at the last 11th hour of saving you from dying...
It doesn't prolong life. It prolongs misery. Right. It very often does. And they do not take into account what you're talking about, the mind-body connection. And I predict in the years to come, the mind-body connection will be
seen as a major part of diagnosing somebody. Instead of just looking at a chart, the way Western medicine does it, if they can't quantify it on a number, on a blood test. Now, blood is important. We see what's in your body, but it's not the whole story. And it's not everything is on that blood chart. The same is not everything that an athlete does is in the box score. There's a lot of different ways to win a game. Wait, that's Bob Costas. He's next.
No. But yeah, I think we could agree on that, that the mind has, and the unconscious, the unconscious. Just the last year or so, I must say, I feel like I'm much more aware of the tricks my unconscious is sometimes playing on me, or the connection between my conscious and unconscious. In a way, I never was earlier in life. Yeah.
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I.D. has a new original true crime podcast called Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? In November 1993, a man discovered the body of Renee Bergeron on the side of a service road in Mobile, Alabama. And despite the horrific nature of her murder, the case got little sympathy in the press.
and the detectives failed to close the case. Now, 30 years later, host Sarah Kaelin is investigating the case by digging up new evidence and interviewing suspects, all in hopes of finally finding answers and closure for Renee's family. Listen to Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom wherever you get your podcasts. See, in 1998, I remember this very clearly. As a physician, I told a patient, I said, Mrs. Smith,
I was looking at a chart. I'm very sorry to tell you, but you have cancer. As soon as I said that, I saw his body language change. No kidding. His face crumpled.
I could bet his blood pressure had gone up. I could guess that his platelets were sticky, that his body was inflamed, that his adrenaline was high and his cortisol was high. Yeah, well, you just told the dude he's dying. Yeah. Then the next second, I realized I was reading the wrong chart. Psych! So I said, I'm really sorry, but this isn't your chart. Okay.
And immediately he changed. Right. Like this. Okay, but this is... So his biology shifted from this to this. Yes, you're right. With one sentence or one word, cancer. Yes, absolutely. That's called the nocebo effect. Right, yes, absolutely. As opposed to the placebo effect. Well, I think what a lot of people don't realize is that before, like 200 years ago, what they only had was the placebo effect. Mostly because they didn't know... Don't dismiss it. The placebo...
It's not something to be dismissed. No, I'm backing up what you're saying. There's a biological process. But I'm saying 200 years ago, they didn't have antibiotics. They didn't know shit. If the doctor, this crazy person, said, okay, I'm going to put these worms up your ass and it's going to help...
People actually thought it did. Some did. Some did. Well, I'm telling you that it was the main way of curing shit was just having the patient think what they were doing. You have to ask yourself, what's the biological mechanism, right? If you're a serious scientist, you have to ask these 30% of people respond to placebos. What's the biological mechanism? So this is what I found out earlier.
You know, I've been at this game for a long time now. Yes. So if you give a placebo, which is supposed to be an analgesic,
to a patient and you say, this will relieve your pain, but before that you give them something called Narcan, which is a narcotic antagonist, they don't get the relief. So they're actually making opiates when they believe that they're going to get relief of pain. But the placebo acts not just in pain, it acts in other diseases.
So there's a biological mechanism that converts an emotion into a molecule. And that's what my field was. My entire field was neuroendocrinology. Now, that's so interesting. And I'm down. And speaking of conversion, let me ask you this, Master. No, you remember 30 years ago, you called me Swami. Swami. Swami. Yes.
Is that bad? No, it's okay. These days, everybody wants to be a swami. I thought it was a term of honor. Yeah, but you have to have the necessary uniform. You do? Like the Pope, you know, has a uniform. Swamis have uniforms, too. All right. Well, I'll just call you Master. So, Master, is it too late for me? I mean, I would think that of all the people, you know, I would be the hardest one. Like, they can't...
Like some people can't be hypnotized. I've wanted to be hypnotized and just,
Some people just have a mind that, I don't know, just works differently. So, you know, I would like to get over this, you know, fear of death and stuff. Do you think that there is hope the way you're looking at it? I don't like the word hope. Hope implies despair. You have to be independent of both hope and despair, and you will lose your fear of death if you find out your true identity. I'm lost already. Yeah.
My true identity? I'm Clark Kent. What? That's my identity. Why is everyone looking at me like I might be Superman? Bill Maher is a fictional character in a collective dreamscape. Get over it. Get over the idea that Bill Maher
Well, it's real. So, you know, a fictional character in a collective dreamscape dies. It's not a big deal. You have to find out who is pretending to be Bill Maher. OK, so let's say I sign on to this. Yeah. How does it actually help me to think of myself as a fictional character? Because then you say, who's the real character?
I don't know, but can we sell the fictional one to Pixar? Yeah, you can do anything with the fictional one. I see. Erudite man. I think could be, okay, maybe not the biggest...
I mean, go back to Shakespeare. The world's a stage where every man must play a part and mine a sad one. That's what he says in The Merchant of Venice, right? And Graziano says, let me play the fool with mirth and laughter. Let all wrinkles come and let my liver rather heat with wine than my heart groan with mortifying groans. Wow. You know your Shakespeare. But what does that have to do with what we were talking about? I don't get it. Because you're right now.
Playing the part of Bill Maher. Oh, I see. I'm playing the part. You're God in drag, basically. Maybe. God in drag. That was a phrase coined by your friend, Timothy Leary's best friend, Richard Alpert. You asked me about that chair. That's why I asked. Timothy Leary. That's why. He was at a Christmas party of mine in 1992, and he burned a hole in the chair accidentally with a cigarette.
There's some wine stains there too. No, no, just a cigarette. No. And then he signed, we knew the chair was useless. So we signed it. It's awesome. It's one of my favorite pieces. It's really a club. The word that we are all God in drag was, that phrase was used by Timothy Leary's research associate, Richard Alpert. No, don't give me credit.
Oh, forgive for giving him credit. I mean, God and drag. No, it's a great phrase, but I don't know if that really is me. But let's say I'm playing this character, which is my say a little bit crushing because my whole life, what I've tried to do, and I feel like I've reached a pinnacle of it. What's doing what I'm doing right now on this podcast is being,
be the opposite of that for a world that was drowning in bullshit and television, which was also fairly well drowning in people who are just phony. I mean, it's just part of the job. But I was like, can you be authentically yourself? And you're telling me, no, we're all phonies. We're all, but some are more authentic phonies than others. I don't think I'm better at it, yeah.
But there may be truth to that. I mean, I would certainly say that everyone lies, even people. Yeah. Do you think you lie? To themselves. Yeah. But have you mastered not doing that? Or are you still doing it? I'm aware of it. You're aware of all the lies you tell yourself? I am aware of what I say. You ever catch yourself and go? Yeah, absolutely. You do? Yeah. And then what, you get mad at yourself? No. I just say maybe next time put the pause button before you speak.
Oh, you say things tumble out of your mouth that you regret? Once in a while I say, press the pause button, watch your reaction to react. If you just watch your reaction to react, it kind of... But you don't see a difference between you at 35, I don't know... Of course I see. I used to fight and argue and go to debates and be defensive and attack people. You did? Of course.
That's what you get for going to medical school. Okay, but then once you started becoming the person we know as the master, the guru... I never call myself a guru. If you ask me, spell it for me. Spell the word. G-U-R-U. Slowly. G-U-R-U. G-U-R-U.
That's a guru. That's just a coincidence, right? But that's clever. Gee, you are you. That's kind of cool. Who wrote that? That's Deepak Chopra. You did? Yeah. God bless.
Fuck, after all these years. Okay, so Scientology. That's my other, I could either go your way. I'm making a decision, probably over the weekend. I might take all week. I've got some brochures. I've got your people and I've got the Scientology. I'm kind of on the fence now and this is a hypothetical. Yes, hypothetically come to a week with me on something called the longevity retreat since you're
so fearful of death. Really? It'll cure me? How much is it? There are two things that'll happen. One is you lose your fear of death. The second thing is you will be a healthier person at the end of it. Really? Yeah. Seriously. Have you been circumcised? No, that's for you guys. No, it was just... Every time I pick up these scissors, I feel like I should do a service for the
You're not circumcised? Oh, my God. It's so disgusting. I don't know how you... Actually, I'm on a campaign right now, globally, to help eliminate this cruel custom of fetal, female genital mutilation. Well, that is horrible. That is happening. Of course. Of course. So at this moment, I'm on a global campaign against that. You're going to make a lot of the usual suspects very angry with that because that becomes a religious thing.
It's a cultural thing which is outmoded. It's not even religious. Well, it's a cultural thing based on... It's not religious. There's no religious junction against it. Well, you can't separate cultural Islam from religious Islam. All religion is cultural mythology. Yes, but that religion is more fundamentalist. In other words... I can find you fundamentalists in Hindus, vegetarianists... You can find them, but numbers matter.
Numbers matter. You cannot find as many fundamentalists. There are, I think, 10 countries that could be wrong. That's the last time I read it. They have Islamic in the name of the country, like the Islamic Republic of Iran. That's very different. You cannot imagine America as off the track as we've gotten being called the Christian Republic of America, although that is exactly what Marjorie Taylor Greene wants. Yeah, well, that's disgusting, but I can tell you something.
I have spent a lot of time in Islamic countries, in the Middle East, in Saudi. I've even been to Iran, Turkey. And I think sometimes we give a very bad rap to the majority of people who are actually very reflective. I recently was in Dubai and went to meet the minister of AI there.
- Minister of what? - Artificial intelligence. Because I've created-- - Where, Dubai? - In Dubai. And so I go to-- - They have a minister of that? - They have a minister of AI, they have a minister of tolerance, they have a minister of happiness, and they have a minister of forgiveness in Dubai. - Oh, mister. - Okay, so I listen to this. I go to his office.
And the reason I'm visiting him, I've created an AI chatbot. You did? I did, to eliminate or actually help people with suicide ideation. So we have a chatbot. I have a nonprofit organization. The robot talks you out of it? The robot talks to you and...
And teenagers are more comfortable talking to the robot because they don't feel judged. Fucking A. Okay. And it has intervened in 6,000 suicide logics. Really? It's talking to 20 million people simultaneously. Wow. And now we are creating cryptocurrency to pay for it for people who can't afford it even for counseling.
So I went to the minister of AI in Dubai, said, you know, this is a problem everywhere. It's not that depression is everywhere. It's the number one pandemic is not COVID-19. The number one pandemic in the world today is mental illness and depression. And every 40 seconds, somebody is dying from suicide. I agree. So I go to his office.
And he's wearing the traditional Arab dress, and his assistant has a hijab. And she leaves, and then the door is closed. He says, we'll talk about what you've come for. And I'd come for his help to create the chatbot in Arabic, suicide prevention. And so before we start that conversation, he said, Dr. Chopra, may I ask you a question? We'll talk about the AI later.
I said, "Sure." He said, "Why do we exist?" I'm perpetually surprised that we exist. Then he asked me about, he says, "I have a place in the desert. Will you come tonight so we can watch the stars and at least be wonderstruck and in bafflement of our existence?" If you're not perpetually surprised by your existence,
You don't even deserve to exist. So this was the conversation. One hour went by, his assistant came. She said, you have five other appointments. He says, cancel them. I'm enjoying this conversation. In the end, he says, so what do you want? I said, I want to create an AI for suicide prevention. He says, done. Like this. I have to tell you, like...
Your life is so different than mine. I have to like just stand back in awe a little bit because my life is really so provincial and I do the same things. Things I like, but they're just not like inventing shit and then going to Dubai and talking to the minister. And, you know, I just don't have this life. And at 76, really, you don't look it and to be like, it seems like nothing is slowing you down.
So, I don't know if your secret is... I believe the secret is joy is the only measure of a good life. I know, but what... So I start every day. Joyful, energetic body, love and compassion in the heart, clear mind, and lightness of being. All right. But it's like the things that give me joy...
As long as you're not guilty about them. I'm not guilty at all. Then you're all safe. Oh, good. Thank God. Oh, I'm going to enjoy this course because I thought I was going to have to change my whole life. Guilt, that's the Judeo-Christian...
Yeah. No, I'm not guilty at all. No, no, I have no... They made so much money. I mean, when I say no... How many institutions make money on confession? We all have regrets. I mean, life is... I've said this a million times, but when people give these interviews...
And they very often say, no regrets. And I think, who the fuck are you? You can't be human. Every day is a regret of something. There's not one day that goes by that I don't think, oh, I wish I'd put the tea kettle on five minutes ago or whatever it is like,
who walks through life, no regrets. And I'm still having regrets. And I, you know, so yeah, I have lots of things that, you know, it's like, but honestly, but yeah, you can't wait about the difference. Something that happened in a dreamscape. You don't do it. Do you remember what you were doing last Thursday at five o'clock in the morning?
Do you even remember what you were concerned about? Yes, I do. And I remember things that I would have rather have done differently when I was younger that were sometimes schmuckier or selfish or something, nothing horrible, but like we all just are going through life and
Especially when we're young, we're scared and it's like, oh, is this guy going to take my slot or whatever it is? So, you know, you maybe have sharper elbows than you would like. You're not as accomplished in life. You don't have all that anxiety off your shoulders about am I going to be a success or not? And I know you're looking at me like, oh, these are all ridiculous concerns. I'm sorry. I'm a human. Okay. These are my concerns. But most humans have become biological robots.
triggered by people and circumstance into predictable outcomes. And so there's no self-awareness and there's guilt and there's shame and there's humiliation and there's hostility and there's anger and there's war and there's terrorism. Yes.
And there's eco-destruction and there's extinction of species and poison in the food chain. This is an insane society. I know. It's totally insane. And if you don't agree that it's insane, then you're declaring your own insanity. Look, quit trying to cheer me up. I take your point. Oh, look, I forgot him to laugh. So, like, what about you? You're married, right? Yes. What are you saying? It's like it's crazy not to be. No, no, no. I'm married, but I also know the secret of marriage.
I didn't ask, but I'd love to know. Not that I'm going to use it. No, you're not getting married. Oh, I'm okay with that too? Yeah, you're okay with that. I'm two for two. So I think, first of all, get rid of the notion that there is anything such as
lifelong romantic infatuation of any kind. This is a hill I will die on. This is a hill I will die on, arguing with you, because I think that could not be more the opposite of how I think.
It's nothing like that. Maybe it's nothing for you. An infatuated, intoxicated experience that you have that you call love is not love. I know, but it sure feels good when you have it. Yeah, well... I will chase that drug until the monster gets me. Yeah, but you could chase alcohol until the monster gets you too. Alcohol is not love. How can you compare them like that? Anything that you become dependent on
limits your freedom. Let me tell you this little story. So what I was going to complete that sentence, the secret of a happy marriage is love each other irrespective and no judgment. Well, you know, what you said was don't expect it to be romantic all the way through, which is exactly what happens in marriage. And I would die on that hill of avoiding that. Yes. And I won't go into any more detail than that. But
Love is much more than a romantic infatuation. Love is absolutely. Well, there's something in between infatuation and the kind of love that takes place in a stale, sexless marriage. I'm sorry, that slipped out of my mouth. It doesn't have to be stale or sexless. I'm just kidding. It's just a joke. It's a turn of the phrase.
But here, let me tell you... You've got this attitude that some things are sacred and some things are profane. Well, some things are. And some things are carnal and some things are spiritual. I do have that feeling. When it's all one thing. Now, that certainly is...
a kind of reflection of a basic philosophy that goes back to many ancient philosophers of oneness. That we somehow achieve happiness, but life is all about the diurnal and it's all about the dual. Everything is divided. But you can have duality.
and undo it at the same time. And that's why we're unhappy because there's always this tension. Like marriage is a perfect example. The tension in all of life with people, believe me, I've lived with this tension and tried to deal with it many different ways, is between excitement and security.
At first, you have excitement and it's fantastic. Then after a while, that is not so exciting, but you have security with someone. I mean, trust me, I've gone back and forth on this my whole life. The search for insecurity is the biggest part of insecurity. That's why I like that.
The biggest cause of insecurity is the search for security. Well, I mean, security, you know, security, get this nut out of here. You know, the real excitement in life is when you don't anticipate, don't regret, don't resist, go with the flow. So listen to this. No resistance to existence. Never mind. I'll do my. Go ahead. Yeah.
I want to plug your things. Oh, you have to. No, I want to. Because I know it's all about...
You know, we're all in a dream. But as long as we're in the dream, we might as well be making money, right? Yeah, you might as well upgrade the dream. Exactly. You can upgrade the dream. I mean, there's nice dreams. But, you know, some people like that. And then there's real baller dreams. Yeah, but some people like horror movies, too. Right. It's all a matter of taste. But nobody likes poverty. I mean, I bet you you're worth, if you have 93 books, you must be worth a ton. If you know how much you're worth, then it's not enough.
And you don't? I don't care. You don't know how much you're worth? I don't look those. Come on. People say I'm worth a lot. Come on. I'm saying. And you couldn't even put a ballpark number on it? No, because I've watched people look at the stock market and their net worth, and they totally get confused with net worth, confused with self-worth. I just wrote a book called Abundance based on a lyric poem.
by Bob Marley, who said, some people are so poor, all they have is money. That is awesome. I never heard that. Some people are so poor, all they have is money. That's genius. That's Bob Marley. Yeah.
Well, Deepak's episode is Saturday, April 1st at the... Oh, no, this is me. Saturday. You're not going to be at the Paramount Theater April 1st in Seattle. If we are, we're fucked because we're going to have to do the act together. That's me, April 1st at the Paramount Theater, Sunday, April 2nd at the Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall in Portland. I love these cities. And the 22nd of April at the theater at the MGM National Harbor, Washington, D.C. Oh, that's going to be good.
Deepak, April 23rd. Oh, no. It's just me again. April 23rd at the Durham Performing Arts Center. That is me, right? Deepak. Wait. Maybe we should exchange roles. Don't you? You're not going to Durham. You're not going to Durham, are you? I said you become the saint. I'll be the sinner for a day. Okay.
Oh, I also wanted to mention, speaking of like religion and there's this podcast, my friend, Barry Weiss is free press. People put out called the, uh, which trials of JK Rowling. I would recommend it highly. I don't usually recommend podcasts, but, um, what happened to her? It's pretty amazing. So, uh, I won't say any more and spoil it, but it's, it's one of my favorites. And, uh,
Years ago on Politically Incorrect, I tried to do a sketch called Harry Pothead. Oh, really? Yeah.
and they wouldn't let us do it. We had a screaming match with the censors at ABC. This was 1997. And just a sketch called Harry Pothead was too touchy for them. That's where they were with marijuana in 1997. So the idea that we don't change, that the country doesn't change, that there's no progress, is so insane to me. And that's what I feel like so many people, so many of the woke people,
They so badly want to be warriors, social justice warriors, that when things have progressed so much, they feel like they're cheated out of being there to kill that terrible, evil injustice. And it's like a lot of the injustices, not all of them, of course, we still have a lot of work to do. We've slayed some dragons and they don't want to admit that. I don't know why I'm telling you this. Where are you on like woke shit?
You know, everybody's doing the best they can from their level of awareness. Well, that sounds like a backhanded insult, and I sign on to it. Yes, everyone is doing as good as they can with what they know. Even Putin. Yeah, even Putin. My thing on Putin is, if I was a Freudian analyst, he's probably impotent, and he's taking his rage out.
At least Freud would say he's stuck in the first chakra. I think he's stuck in the KGB. Maybe I can't think on your level, but I think there's something to being indoctrinated from a young age into a system, as he was with the KGB. I've been to the Soviet Union many times. I was friendly with Khrushchev in the days when it was still Soviet Union. Khrushchev? Khrushchev.
Not Khrushchev. No, sorry. Who am I saying? He just passed away. Gorbachev. Stalin. Gorbachev. I was close to Gorbachev. I could see that. And I spent time with Gorbachev. And in those days, rumor had it that, you know, when Ted Turner and Jane Fonda were starting CNN. Well, Jane, Ted Turner.
- But, Jane and Ted did not start CNN together. I loved you. - Whatever. - But to all due respect. - He did, but they were traveling. - Jane did not have anything to do with starting CNN. - Okay, but they were traveling together. And rumor was, gossip, local gossip was that Putin was their chauffeur every time. And he was actually working for the KGB even then. - Oh my God, where was this? - In the Soviet Union, Gorbachev days.
So Ted Turner was in Moscow to set up CNN there and Putin was spying on them. That was the gossip.
oh my god that has to be true I love it although he was there are photographs apparently of him in his chauffeur uniform it could have happened but he wasn't stationed in Moscow he was the Berlin the reason why he rose so fast is he had the plum KGB assignment which is Berlin Berlin was always the flashpoint in the Cold War the most important city between East and West I'm just saying these were rumors I know
Okay. So tell me, I thought I had things to plug for you. I'm happy to do it. So is there anything you... I have a new book, but... What is it? It's called... Tell me. Living in the Light, Yoga for Self-Realization. Show it to me. Read it to me, Master. No, I don't need to read it to you. No. I mean, and your books sell all over the world, right? Yeah. They're in many languages. Over 50 languages, yeah. Wow. Wow.
Living in the Light. Now, how is it possible that after 92 books, you hadn't used that title yet? It seems like it would have been like third in line, Living in the Light. I wasn't prepared to write about what I wasn't totally experiencing. Well, that's vague. What are you saying? I'm living in the light right now. But haven't you been living in it for a long time? No, I've been talking about it. Really? You graduate, see, fourth stage of life.
That's what Scientology has, levels. I'm on Thetan level seven. I mean, it's, well, one more and I'm on the bridge to total freedom. You know this about Scientology? You know what Scientology, I don't know them well, but what they do do is, I believe, they access your...
so-called subconscious mind, and then they program you, basically. They do a lot of scary things. The first thing they do is get a lot of dirt on you. I mean, if you ever are tempted to think human beings are bright, just remember, these people voluntarily sit down. And sometimes these are movie stars who have a lot to hide.
You know, we know who the movie star Scientology. They voluntarily went on camera and said the worst things about them, their own selves and what they've done and who they are. And it's a form of confession. You can go to your priest and do the same. You're giving them the gift of blackmail material on you voluntarily. I mean, you know, Bill, bottom line is.
The world is insane. The world is insane. Well, of course, but... And we are all sleepwalking to extinction right now. We are what? Sleepwalking to extinction. Because of the environment, you mean? Climate change. Right. Nuclear weapons. Yes. Cyber warfare. Yes. Oh, and what the phones are doing to the minds of the kids. Yeah. And lack of education. Oh, yeah. No, we are definitely... The human...
species was an interesting experiment. Yes. But it could have, it's failing. Well, I mean, Homo sapiens, which I don't know if folks realize how recent we are, really, Homo sapiens. Only a couple hundred thousand years. 200,000 years. Well, that's a couple hundred thousand. Homo sapiens, but up until 30,000 years ago.
There were eight different kinds of humans. Exactly. We killed them all off. We killed them all. And we've killed off most of the animals. Wherever we go, the fossil record shows whenever humans came out of Africa and they started to populate the world. We're like cancer. Yes. We're like cancer. We metastasize, we gouge, we plunder. Right. So what is the answer to this, Master? Extinction.
No, no. That's what we're... The answer to avoiding extinction. What is the answer to that? Evolution. That's living in the light. Yoga for self-realization. Honestly. Oh, so the answer is your book. No, no. Okay, I get it. My book is just one iteration...
of wisdom traditions for thousands of years. I mean, I remember my friend Salman Rushdie. Do you know Sal? Yeah, met him once. He's the greatest. Yeah. I'm so sorry about what has happened. Yeah, but you can't keep a good man down because he's not, he's better. But I wonder about is he able to speak and all that? I'm reading his latest book, by the way. Yes, he's writing, he's not morose, he's
you know it's uh this guy wasn't even alive when the book was written well i mean you know it's about religion we're talking about stuff that's not about religion well it is about religion it's about it's about fanaticism well that's from a religion why do you have to deny that religion is a thing and it's a thing in it's not that's built it's germane there's religious ideology there's religious okay so there's religious experience but if i say someone rashti got stabbed by this guy
Who is just a nut job, basically. But you cannot deny that religion is in the mix here that is germane to the discussion. Religion, politics. Yes, he's a nut job. We're all so much nuts. It's all a dream. But the thing that sent this borderline personality over the edge with the fucking knife in his hand is...
was religion, because he believed a certain set of bad ideas. That's what religion is. Oh, by the way, that's... Religion, lack of education, cultural ignorance of other cultures. It's very complex. It is complex, and you're throwing it all into one big soup, as if they all have equal weight and are of equal importance. No, no, they don't have equal weight. We have to have some kind of judgment, but on the other hand,
You will never get rid of ignorance other than by... No, but we fight it and we win battles. No, you don't fight darkness. Let me ask you this on a practical level. You don't fight darkness, you bring in the light. Okay, well, speaking of darkness and not bringing in the light, women who have a burqa over their head, how about that for not getting some fucking light in your darkness? Again, if you actually... You know, I grew up... Okay, wait a second. Let me just ask the question. I grew up in cultural environments...
where women wear barka, where women wear bales, where women wear headdresses. And they are, if you look at some of the cultural nuances that go with that, it's extraordinary. The veil is supposed to actually hide the beauty of divine feminine. Okay? Whatever. It's barbaric. And people write poetry about it. Okay. So my question to you, sir, is, you're like,
It's all the same. This is, to me, an evil in the world. They're forced to wear, especially the ones you see in Afghanistan, anything that is like a full head-to-toe. And I've certainly read accounts from women who have escaped from that, and they talk about it, and they say, you have no idea how dehumanizing
This can be because you can't hear people. You can't you can barely see out. They can't see you. It is a way to rob a human being of the most basic humanity. The idea that progressives have a problem with this issue about Islamophobia, as opposed to look, you either stand with the woman under that thing or you stand with the people oppressing her. It's not a it's not a giant rebuke.
lift to figure this one out. So my question to you is, that goes on in the world now a lot. A lot of women are forced to wear stuff like that. And I do mean forced, even if they're brainwashed into thinking they like it, which they don't. Shouldn't we fight that? Of course, I am one of the biggest spokespersons for women's rights in Iran at the moment. Okay. At the moment on social media,
I'm one of the most outspoken people on that issue of women's rights and the veil in Iran, particularly where they're being forced to and with a lot of cruelty. But if somebody wants to make that choice on their own, it's their choice, right?
it's not usually their choice. I think some of it is in the culture. And if you do stuff to children, which is called child abuse like that, then they might grow up and they know no other way, but it is a, it is the worst kind of almost horrible oppression and gender apartheid. We fought apartheid. Why don't we fight this one? And,
And when I say that, the usual suspects will say I'm an Islamophobe or I'm hating. No, no, I don't go with that. I'm not hating anybody. I don't like the word evil. I like the word ignorance.
Really? Yeah. Well, but there are two different things. I mean, they feed it. As I said, that ignorance recycles over and over. It's power mongering, influence peddling, cronyism, corruption, power, money, all of that. And that goes with religious institutions, but also goes with political institutions. Look at every single politician, in my view, is a gangster. Why? Why?
All they're engaged in is power mongering, influence peddling, cronyism, corruption, and money. Every politician. I haven't found, well, maybe that woman in New Zealand or the prime minister of Ireland. There may be one or two exceptions. Okay, but just take something like universal health care, which we never had, and we still don't have, but we got a lot closer in
I think 2012 it passed. So the Affordable Care Act. So like many, many people who couldn't afford health care, who just withered and died because they just, you know, I mean, there are Michael Moore's movie shows somebody operating on his own knee and so forth.
Okay, politicians sat in rooms. It was tedious and horrible, and there was a lot of stale coffee and empty pizza boxes, but they hammered out against a bunch of assholes who didn't want to move forward on that at all, and it took years and just...
painstaking work, but they got it done. And then lots of these poor people were able to sign up for Obamacare and get it and not operate on their own knee. You mentioned Obama. Do we really? That's different. Lots of people who just, like things don't change because we wish them to or because we're philosophical about it. They change for the better.
at least materially, which affects how you, you know, if you're sick, you can't really be a sound mind. They change because like boring people. It's called evolution. Nobly sat in boring rooms and got shit done. It's called evolution. The old recycles, but it also evolves and it takes time.
But somebody actually did that shit work. Don't they get some credit? Yeah, they wanted the votes. They what? They wanted the votes from liberals. They wanted the votes. That's the only reason. That's the only reason. No, no. People have ideological. I thought I was the cynic. That's the only reason the Democrats passed health care. No, no, no. I'm a Democrat. I'm a liberal. But I also know that, you know, that there are people
When you're a politician, power and influence peddling come first. Sweetheart, I'm very hard on the Democrats. You don't have to convince me about the Democrats being politicians or being full of shit on a lot of stuff. But they also do have more of the compassion gene than the other side. Well, let's say they're a little more evolved. I think that there was a part of them that was also, a lot of them anyway, that was quite sincere.
about let's get some people who are suffering. I'll concede. I'll concede. I'll concede. I mean, you know, essentially, if you're into mystery school, I'm with you, even if you're a Republican. And, you know, I think Republicans do have their mystery school. It's called golf.
Listen, one thing I love about arguing with you is I know that when it's over, you're like the last guy who's going to hold a grudge, right? I know, I know. But I'm just saying, I'm where you go in the world. Everybody's always like Master and Swami. No, no, no. Listen, if you have a wife and you have kids...
You don't take yourself seriously. Again, why am I always the asshole about marriage? And then everybody's like doing the jokes I should be doing. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why I don't get married. That's right. I want to take myself seriously. I don't take myself seriously because my kids and my wife will look up like that. I think, you know, I do think there is something about being from an ancient culture.
you know, your culture more ancient than mine. And it just, the generations do, you know, accumulate wisdom probably sort of in a, I couldn't explain it in a scientific way, but I, you know, the vernacular would be it's in your blood or something, but like there is just, I feel like there's a wisdom and also this lightness you talk about, like you're giggling. The Maharishi used to always be giggling. Like there's a lot of that in the Indian culture. It's like,
And that is a level, I mean, I can't deny that I think I would aspire to. I'm not going to get there and I'm not sure I want to do it your way. But whenever I've been in a state where I was like just giggling, like on mushrooms would be a perfect example. On a water slide always makes me laugh. Or just, you know, right after a good orgasm or something. You're just like...
And you're saying you can get this, it's available in stores, but it's completely natural, right? Totally natural. You know, I'll tell you a very interesting episode with Maharishi. He once asked me to translate into English for an audience that didn't understand Sanskrit or Hindi, a speech by a great guru.
who was speaking in Sanskrit. And the audience was all Western, American, European. After five minutes of this guy speaking, I lost him. I couldn't understand a word he was saying. So while he was giving his speech, I gave mine. And they gave us a standing ovation. So after this guru disappeared, I apologized to Maharishi. I said, you know, I'm sorry. I had to give my speech. I didn't understand a word he's saying.
He said, no, his speech was very good. Yours was very good too. I understood his speech. They understood your speech. So what's the fuss about?
Yes. Did you ever see the concert for Bangladesh that George Harrison put on? I did, yeah. George was a good friend of mine. I'm sure. We traveled in India together for many years. Again, a life I can't even imagine. I got the same friends. I never like go out of my comfort zone. But when they did the concert for Bangladesh, Ravi Shankar opened. Oh, absolutely. Okay, so...
The Indian musicians are there. This is Madison Square Garden in 1971. New Yorkers, you know, they think they're hip. And the Indian musicians, the tabla and the sitar, they are tuning up. It takes about five minutes and they finish. And the crowd applauds. And Ravi Shankar says, thank you very much. Since you enjoyed the tuning up so much, we hope you'll enjoy our first song.
All right. Thank you for coming. Thank you very much. What does that mean? It means. But what does that mean? Is there a specific? Yeah, it means I salute the divine in you, which is the divine in me.