The Spy Who Betrayed Bin Laden | Aimen Dean talks about his time as MI6's Top Spy Inside Al-Qaeda | 5
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Wondery Plus subscribers can binge full seasons of The Spy Who early and ad-free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. From Wondery, I'm Raza Jafri and this is The Spy Who. When diving into the world of spies, we're often talking about historic figures, people whose actions are felt today but whose lives and adventures took place decades ago.

That's not so with today's guest. Eamon Dean's story is a gripping present-day saga which is still unfolding in real time. Now, as we've heard throughout the season, after he came face to face with the realities of fighting a holy war, Eamon turned his back on Al-Qaeda to become a spy. It was the last thing he expected to do, but he found his calling working as an agent.

Eamon risked not only his personal safety, but also the safety of friends and family when he agreed to aid counter-terrorism efforts in the UK and beyond. And then, rather unceremoniously, he was outed by the institutions that he was working to protect. It's particularly fascinating for me. I've been involved in spy dramas for quite a fair bit of my career, and I've certainly played some spies as well. And I'm often asked whether or not those...

stories are based in reality, how close they are. So it'll be very interesting for me today to find out what it exactly is that is the day-to-day life of being a spy. Something tells me it's a little bit more mundane than movies and TV lead us to believe. So what does life as an ex-spy look like? How do you adjust from adrenaline and espionage to a more ordinary way of living?

My guest today is Eamon himself, author of Nine Lives, my time as MI6's top spy inside Al-Qaeda and co-host of the Conflicted podcast. ♪

Hello, Ayman. I'm so grateful to you for joining us today. Should I be calling you Ayman or Ali or Abu Abbas? You've lived a lot of lives, you know, I'm interested to find out about this. Ayman is fine. That's what my kids like. I mean, well, actually, I mean, these days, my daughter, at the beginning, she used to call me Ayman. So first she was calling me by my name and then daddy.

And now it's bro. So... I have that too. I have that too from mine. I have to put a stop to that one. Yeah. No, we're really so lucky to have you with us today. Thank you. To hear really from the person behind all the stories that we've enjoyed listening to over the past episodes of this podcast and to find out what so much of those stories were really like. Like I say, such an extraordinary number of lives you've lived and I'm so looking forward to getting into what living those lives has meant to you along the way. Yeah.

But I have to start out, you know, as an actor who's made a career telling stories of spies and playing a number of them, it's great to be sitting in front of a real one. But I need you to answer a question for me that I think you probably, I know the answer to already, but can you tell me definitively today, is your world anything like the movie world of Spooks or Homeland or Bond? No, there is nothing called Homeland or Bond. No, it's not? I mean... You mean everything I've been doing is a lie? No.

Should have been a spy. Well, unfortunately, there are no... Well, fortunately, if my wife is listening, there are no girls. No martinis, no nice cars. No hand-riding, skiing down mountains, none of that stuff. No, although there will be the occasional frontline drama here and there, where there will be...

shootings here and there. But it's not like because, you know, you are shooting against your enemies. You are actually like, I mean, shooting alongside your enemies against those who you are supposed to be allied with. I mean, it is one of those convoluted worlds, you know, and scenarios basically that you live. Yeah, I don't doubt it. We get support from Dove. Hey, everyone. This is your girl, Kiki Palmer, host of the Wondery podcast. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer. Listen up because there's some messed up stuff we got to talk about.

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I'd like to start at the very beginning and really talk about the origins of your story and what led you to Bosnia in the first place. You grew up in Saudi Arabia. You were the youngest of one of six brothers. Am I right with that? Indeed. Yeah. And you lost your mother when you were very young and your father as well. Is that right? Indeed. Yes. Yeah.

What did that loss mean to you so early? Well, I think what enabled me, I think, to still sail through all of this, I mean, losing father at the age of four and mother at the age of 12,

was still devastating, especially my mother, because by that time, you know, you are more aware. I mean, when you are four, you feel the absence. When you are 12, you know, the absence in itself become, you know, catastrophic in a sense. But then I think the fact that there are five older brothers who are good at consoling, and the second thing also is the fact that Saudi Arabia is a, at that time, a conservative, close-knit country.

you know, society, everyone was supporting each other. And I think like, and I mean, that kind of social support and the, you know, the kids at the school, the neighbors, you know, the fact they have, you know, uncles and aunts and many cousins, you know,

That at least, you know, made the loss easier, I would say. And was it a happy time then for you in Saudi Arabia or were there difficulties like politically for the family and things growing up? I would say it was happy times. I mean, I was more of a nerdy boy growing up and I was more into books and more into learning. And also I was more of a, you know, theologically and...

philosophically curious kid at a young age. And I think I was always also fascinated with politics. I think it's just you cannot grow up in the eastern province of Saudi Arabia without being politically aware. I mean, I grew up in

you know, in the 80s, where there was a massive war next door to us between Iraq and Iran, which was an ethnic and sectarian conflict. I mean, I grew up also, you know, at a time when it was the Afghan jihad, you know, at a time when, you know, you hear about all the stories of the Lebanese civil war. I mean, of course, all of this will politicize any child. Yeah.

But it's fascinating to me that then this, you know, you describe yourself as this nerdy kind of bookish boy turns up at his friend's house one day and decides wholeheartedly that he's going to be of use in a war saving Muslims in Bosnia. You know, what did you have to bring to them? What did you think when you turned there to say, I'm going to go and do this? I remember when he asked me the question, I mean, because he was three years older than me. I was 16 at that time. And he was telling me,

for God's sake, this is war, not picnic. Where do you think we're heading to? And I, you know, he was saying to me, really, like, I mean, do you think the jihad really needs you? Do you think the Bosnians really need you? And I told him, no, I'm not arrogant to think that the jihad needs me, but I need it. And I felt that...

Somehow I just was refusing flat out to be a spectator, watching the caravan of history passing by. I remember when I arrived in Bosnia, it was just three weeks after my 16th birthday and I was praying so hard that I should never see my 17th. Wow. Here I am, you know, soon to be 46. So we're still alive. Thankfully. Thankfully.

To this day, I'm still puzzled by the fact that I do have this kind of

reckless tendency to seek risk rather than avoid it. I think it was also the fact that, I mean, I just wanted to be part of something bigger than me, where I was living, my community, my city, my town. I mean, it was too small for me. I felt like, you know, what am I doing here? I don't feel I belong here. I wanted to be out there doing what, you know, others are afraid to do.

Yeah, I know we'll probably come to this later, but there must be echoes of that in what you saw with the movement in Britain in later years about children from that environment feeling that they wanted to get out of a situation and that was what jihad was calling them to do. Indeed, because remember that no one wakes up one day

you know, and think, oh, today I'm feeling so good. I'm going to become a terrorist. That's it. I mean, I'm going to join an evil organization and go kill, rape, pillage. It doesn't happen like this. I mean, really, I mean, this journey is, in my opinion, the journey I've been on and a journey that many others went on

is the embodiment of that old adage, the path to hell is paved with good intentions. You really want to go to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves?

You feel that when you see the images, you know, of the slaughter, of the atrocities, and you think, I mean, why the world is so powerless to do anything? And, you know, and then you want to do it because one, there is so much fear

Theology, they're involved in terms of like, you know, you wanting to redeem yourself, wanting to be of use. And, you know, you want to move from being powerless to powerful. You know, you want to feel that sense of empowerment. You want to feel that sense of use to others.

And you go, but then of course you don't take, you know, you're too young. I mean, basically like when you are 16, you know, wisdom is a short supply. I mean, absolutely there is no supply of wisdom. So you go there and then that's it. You are an easy catch for those who are waiting at the other end.

Yes, they are, you know, the neon sign says, come to save civilians, come to fight for those who cannot fight for themselves. But also, we do have extra merchandise, you know, and the fine print also talks about, you know, future terrorism, suicide bombings and other things like, you know, ideological brainwashing. But that is for later. So I think this is, this is, I think, where the trap is set.

You know, slowly, gradually, you enter into a different realm altogether. Like, I mean, you are separated. You are in the in-between, between life and death, where...

death become ever present, you know, it's always around the corner and you feel a sense of, you know, beginning to divorce this world and embrace the fact that, you know, you are in a waiting list. You know, you are about to be called at some, at any moment, you know, to the afterlife. Right.

So do you think that that same kind of feelings towards life and its value, or at least the life on this earth to Muslims and its value, was what led you to accept the risks of working for MI6 and going back and being around your peers all over again in Afghanistan? Because actually those risks weren't the risks to an average person because in your head you'd already decided that the life on earth isn't the most important thing to you.

Well, I mean, I will die the day I'm supposed to die. I mean, this is one of the things. I mean, in Bosnia, there was an incident where, I still remember it was September 12th, 1995. That date is etched in my memory. I was rushing into a bunker in order to save someone who was screaming his head off. I mean, and I was worried, like, you know, he will alert the snipers. And I was running and by...

you know, I just noticed that something was holding my foot and I was looking down to find that I was already pulling a wire attached to several landmines, foreign, you know, to be more precise, four landmines and none of them exploded. So I remember this is when I realized that you are going to die the day you are supposed to die.

You know, whether you trip over mines, whether you set a booby trap, whether you are, you know, shot in the leg or the foot or whatever. I mean, at the end of the day, you are going to die the day you're supposed to die. And this is exactly how I, you know, why I, you know, when I wrote my memoir, I call them nine lives. And so I think, you know, this is why when I went back, I think, to be a spy and for eight years, I still remember, like, I mean,

It's only afterwards, only after I left the service and, you know, and I became a banker, you know, exchanging one form of terrorism to another. And I remember when I went into banking, I mean, someone asked me there, they said, like, I mean, you know,

Ayman, you spent eight years undercover. I mean, that's usually, it's longer than usual. Did it occur to you that every day could have been your last day? I remember I said, do you believe? I mean, this is the first time I think about it. This is the first time I think it will be my last day because every day I was waking up, it doesn't matter if it's my last day, but what matters is, you know, how productive this day is. Right.

So do you think that kind of fatalistic view that your day will come when your day comes is what's needed to be a spy? Like, you know, whether it's a spy now today or spy of hundreds or thousands of years ago, you know, that belief ultimately that when your time comes, your time comes. So you can take the risk because it's in someone else's hands. That's it. That's all. You summed it up perfectly well.

The risk, you know, if you keep thinking about it, you'll become nervous. It will show on your face. It will show, you know, it will let you let it slip. To be a good spy, you must forget you're a spy. So I'd love now to turn to what the day-to-day life of being a spy was. When you first left the UK, when you decided that you'd be working for MI6, did

What was that first day at work like? When you entered those training camps with people you knew, you'd left to someone else and now you were coming in as an MI6 officer for the first day. What were you feeling? To tell the truth, it was business as usual.

You go back and you wear the same clothes that you were wearing. You behave the same way you were doing. You still have the same skills that they were utilizing. You still have the same knowledge that they need from you. Because again, to be a good spy, you must forget you're a spy. Can I come to the time when you decided in Qatar that it was time for you to

talk to a security service about what you've been doing for these years. You spent nine days with the security services in Qatar, I understand. Is that right? Yes. Being questioned afterwards?

How in those moments did you think, this is going to be okay? I am not going to be betrayed by the Qataris. For all I know, there could be someone in here who's going to tell Al-Qaeda what I've been doing. Like, what was going through your mind to make you go, no, I trust that this is the right place for me? Or again, was this part of the greater plan? You just have to trust your gut feeling. I think at that moment, you really start to feel that, okay,

How do I conduct myself now? I have two choices. Either I decide to defend those who I no longer agree with ideologically and theologically, or actually just stick to the truth. And I remember there is a statement by the Prophet Muhammad where he says in Arabic, that truth is salvation. And

Boy, I mean, that's exactly what happened. You know, there is salvation in the truth. Which is extraordinary coming from a spy because, you know, so much of your life is not the truth. It has to be all the time. It must be a difficult thing to live with sometimes. Well, not necessarily. You see, you know, there is a lot of misconception about espionage that it's all lies. No, absolutely.

Actually, the best of spies are those who do not resort to lying most of the time, but they are mostly economic with the truth.

Right. So in that time with the Qataris, how did they trust you? You know, as someone who's from the Gulf, and they are from the Gulf, you know, the distance between us, like it was four hours by drive, it's the same accent. You know, it is the same families, the same tribal structure, like, I mean, so...

the rapport between me and them was more like, you know, guys sitting, having tea and just going through this. It wasn't an interrogation. It was really like, you know, with, you know, food and tea and coffee and drinks and all of that, like, I mean, and snacks and, you know, talking and joking. And so it wasn't,

It wasn't the movie version where you were sitting chained to a table and someone was shining a lamp in your face. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I think, you see, this is why I always tell people, I mean, the Americans really, you know, got it wrong in the first years of the war on terrorism with their rendition and, you know, and enhanced interrogation and all of that. You want to get things out of people, be kind to them.

That's what you have to do. The Qataris knew this from the beginning. They were extremely kind to me. I was also kind in return.

Is that why you chose the Brits as well? Because, you know, their hearts and minds kind of attitude towards espionage. And was that why you were more drawn to them as a security service when you had the choice to go to the French or the Americans? Indeed. I mean, there is no question about it. Like, you know, the British are far more superior when it comes to, you know, at least at that time, when it comes to understanding, first of all, of the Middle East, the fact that my father himself, like, I mean, had,

you know, an early life friendship with one of the earliest spies of the British in Arabia, St. Jim Philby, or later known as Sheikh Abdullah Philby, the advisor of King Abdulaziz in Saudi Arabia. So for me, you know, there is an affinity with the British, you know, earlier before. And so I understood that they have a far more nuanced approach to,

to the Middle East, to the Muslim world, you know, they understand that the problems there are better, I think. What was it that surprised you most about your early meetings with those intelligence services, do you think?

One was how knowledgeable they were about jihad, about Afghanistan, about the Qaeda, about Bosnia. You start to see like, well, there are hundreds of mosques in the UK. I mean, there are 2 million Muslims living there, enjoying the freedoms and the privileges and

going to university and, you know, and then of course, when you see, you know, that there are officers who are also Muslims, whether they are converts or, you know, or people like, you know, basically who are from, you know, ethnic background, or when you see even more, like, I mean, you know, the cream of the British intelligence here, people who are Orientalists, you know, and

speak Arabic with Bedouin accent, you know, love to go to the desert and practice falconry. I mean, come on. I mean, why wouldn't you fall in love with this? You know, people who

actually, you know, the same, on the same wavelength with you, intellectually speaking, you know, you immediately bond with them because they are trained to do that as a first thing, but also at the same time, you can't dismiss the fact that they are fellow humans with their own

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You're now going back and forth between Afghanistan, between Beirut, between London at this point. This is when you're first working for MI6. What changed for you crossing those borders? I mean, this time, it's just that you feel a little...

sense of ease because you have a little bit of protection. I mean, you're crossing, but this time you are not on the wrong side of the law. I mean, let's put it this way. So, you know, it's still dangerous. I mean, if I go into Lebanon and Hezbollah find out or, you know, Juma'ah Islamiyah find out, oh my God, I'm not going to be in good shape. So you have to

not incriminate myself, like, you know, with association with MI6, but what you do is that, okay, no problem, go to prison and then figure out, you know, what to do after that. But for now, you are not supposed to do that. And at the same time, sometimes you come up with the most

you know, outlandish, you know, ideas. I mean, you have to just, you know, talk to immigration officers based on their, you know, local beliefs, exploit their, you know, local traditions and just befriend them and try to, you know, appeal to their, you know, areas of curiosity and interest. So is that, again, another kind of common trait of a spy, like being able to bond with people, charm people in that way?

You have to. You know, being a charming person is important, especially that if you have a sense of humor, it's important. A sense of humor for a spy is important because it shows that you are at ease, that you're not nervous, that you are not afraid of anything, you have no worries.

A sense of humor is a very good shield. Was there a lot of laughing in those camps? Oh, yes. I mean, this is why I said, I mean, it was, you sit down with people because you learn more about them. I mean, I never looked at them as enemies.

I looked at them as objects of learning, curiosity, experiments, you know. And this is why it was important that I should never view them with hostility because if I start to do that, it will show. And I will start to, you know, become more...

withdrawn from them. No, I'm not supposed to do that. I have to care about them and I have to make them care about me. There must then have been difficult decisions because there's people that you really do care about and potentially you're putting them in danger by talking to the authorities about what they're involved with. Was that difficult? Of course it was difficult, but nonetheless, you have to look at the bigger picture. You have to always understand. I know this is a cliche. I know like many people roll their eyes when you say this,

phrase, but it is for the greater good. You will never understand, you know, what is the greater good until you go through war and conflict and you see mass graves and you see the worst of the worst of humanity. Because at the end of the day, remember that these people I tell jokes with, you know, I eat with, you will be surprised, you know, that

people with such tender, you know, affections to each other,

would be incredibly harsh and bloodthirsty when it comes to the other because they already have dehumanized the other so much. And did you at any point along the way think there are people here who I could try to persuade to think along the lines I think? Or was that just off limits because it risked outing you for what you were doing? Of course it's off limits. I mean, one of the things I've been trained on is resist the temptation.

No matter how much you think, you think that someone is voicing concerns because sometimes it happens. Like, you know, someone will come to you and say, oh, I'm not feeling good about this or that. Like, I mean, are we doing the right thing? No, don't fall into the trap because it could be a trap.

Yeah, from my point of view, I have to be really careful. And no, it's not my job to recruit others. That's the problem of MI6 and MI5. They can't go and recruit. For me, my job is not to persuade, is not to preach, is not to teach. My job is to observe. And what about the successes along the way? What were those moments that you went, I am making a difference. What I have done has prevented something or...

it's working. What were those moments for you? There were quite a few of them. For example, when you hand over certain information and they say, oh, a cell has been broken in Yemen. Thank you so much for this. I mean, you've done it. Oh, we have now uncovered the true identity of those who carried out the bombings in Russia. Oh, we have disrupted the

chemical weapon attack in New York. We disrupted another poison attack in Mayfair and Canary Wharf. We disrupted also another potentially big attack actually in Bahrain that would have targeted so many people in the New Year's Eve of 2004, 2005. So there were these moments when you

feel that this have, or this did prevent significant harm to others and that hundreds of lives being saved. There was, of course, the moment when, you know, but some of the successes, you really feel a little bit hollow when I uncovered the identity of the first leader of Al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia, Yusuf al-Ayyari, who was my teacher when I was young.

And I remember that the first thing I asked before I hand over the information is that, can you please persuade the Saudis to take him alive? I asked for that and I was given the guarantees that they will do their best to take him alive. And guess what? They did their best, the Saudis. In the end, he just did not want to hand over himself. He wanted to die. That was his choice. He just did not refuse to hand over himself for nine hours. So once...

the Americans that attacked Afghanistan and you had Al-Qaeda cells splintering all over the world. I mean, people, you know, it's like whack-a-mole, presumably, where we're working in the intelligence services trying to find out where these cells were and what they were doing.

You were in Britain at the time, is that right? You were working with MI6 out of the UK just after 9-11? Well, after 9-11, I worked from out of many places, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, UAE, Lebanon, and of course the UK. So because they were scattered, they were all over the place. I mean, I spent 13 months actually in the Gulf, you know, post 9-11, continuously undercover. But UK also became...

it became apparent that there were cells there and they were hostile. So I started also to pay more attention there into what the Al-Qaeda UK cells are up to. And what did you come across then at the time? What were you seeing?

Well, out of nowhere, I received a instruction from one of my Qaeda associates in the Gulf. He said, okay, where are you living right now? I said, well, I was living in Oxford. Oh, someone from Birmingham is going to come and see you. And so, of course, I mean, I received this, you know, ominous, you know, two people coming, you know, to my apartment in Oxford. And they were from Dudley, or shall I say Dudley? And so...

And so this is when I, you know, I was sucked into this world of Anwar al-Awlaqi and these people who were recruited by him, you know, when he was preaching in the Whitechapel Mosque in East London and then later in the Midlands. And of course, like, you know, I mean, you know, I started to become more acquainted with the Birmingham jihadi circles and of course went to Dudley. And this is, you know, and this is where I met

you know, Hamayoun Tariq, you know, who would later, you know, up until 2016, 17, 18, would become one of the greatest bomb makers ISIS, you know, had in Iraq and Syria. And that tells you a lot. So I met him for the first time and it was, you know, the winter of 2004. And, uh,

and he was telling me, I was given your number by such and such. And he told me to get in touch with you because we are planning something. And I said,

oh dear, not again. I just, can you give me just a breather? I just came back from another plot. I just, don't smack me with another one. And I said, oh, I'm all ears. You know, I'm at your service. You tell me like what you need to do. And so he told me that they are planning to use nicotine poison, a poison that you can make out of cigarettes. And that's why I tell people do not smoke when they put that. Nicotine poison, that's a new one on me. I haven't heard that before.

Well, a nicotine poison is a poison. I don't go into details as how you do it, but it is extracted out of cigarettes. And so this is why, you know, I just alerted my handlers immediately. Guys, there are some psychos out of Dudley and they want to do something.

And immediately we started putting the plans together. It took about four months, you know, from December 2004 until March 2005 to understand this whole cell, their connections, who are they, what is their target. They wanted to target individuals

You know, because nicotine poison, if you mix it with certain other additives, it could penetrate the skin and could kill by touch. So if you were to brush against door handles of, let's say, like, you know, I mean, Bentleys and Rolls Royces and Ferraris and, you know, of, you know, rich houses, people, you know, door handles, like, you know what I mean? And so it is the audacity of it, the fact that it is,

designed to give people terror, you know, because terrorism is about like installing fear in the hearts of people. Yeah, the unknown. Because you don't know if it's going to be you, if it's on your door handle. If you do it to 30 people, how do I not know that my door handle is not going to be covered in it? Exactly. 30 random people. So suddenly, like, you know, basically, like, I mean, I mean, I remember like when I was joking with my handlers, I said, should I buy, you know, shares in any company that produce, you know, gloves? Yeah.

Yeah. They said, don't you dare. So, and of course, like, it was a joke because I was, you know, of course, like, I mean, we were going to foil the plot anyway. How far along the line did they get with the plot?

Let's put it this way. I mean, they really were two weeks away from it. That's it. They were preparing their wills. They were basically deciding that's it. And they were actually booking their flights. So they will do it and then they will fly straight away. So providing that intelligence along the way, was it in your remit to decide which intelligence to give? Because, for example...

Had you given them a catalogue of information and knowing that you were probably the only spy, as far as you know, inside al-Qaeda at the time, did you not fear that giving them chunk of information after chunk of information

these plots were getting foiled. Each one was in front of you. There's a pattern here. Did you not think this is going to expose me? So I need to hold back some of this. I won't give them some of this information. Or were you just taught, give them everything, let them figure that out? Yes, it is exactly as it is. You give them everything and they will figure out because the more you hide, you don't know because I have part of the picture, they have the full one.

So, you know, I'm not supposed to second guess. But that's incredible faith, isn't it? Incredible faith in the people you work for. Exactly, because, you know, it's military discipline. It is military discipline. You know, it's not for the, you know, for the unit commanders to question the brigade commander, you know, so because the brigade commander have the fuller picture than the unit commanders. And I think this is exactly why

why I'm not supposed to second guess, you know, what they might or might not do. I just have to trust them. And part of the trust is the fact that, well, I mean, you know, I'm valuable. They are not going to throw me like this, you know, or throw away my contribution. So this is why, you know, it is a risk you have to take.

Now that must therefore have been a really, really awful time when suddenly they did put you in that situation. When you were sent that text message and told that you needed to look at the Time magazine article in 2006 and that you'd been betrayed by the people that you'd done so much for, when you put so much faith in their decisions about the information that they'd given you, what did that feel in that moment?

Um, I remember I was actually taking the first holiday in my life. I mean, in my life as a private individual. I remember I went to my handlers, it was May of 2006. And I said, guys, can you believe it? I've been working seven and a half years nonstop. Nonstop. So I think

I deserve the holiday and I would love to see Paris. I've never seen it before. So they said, by all means. So I went there, you know, and it was Saturday. Then on Sunday, I'm enjoying myself the second day in this beautiful city. I am in the River Seine, uh,

enjoying this boat ride. And I received this text message, you know, there is a spy among us, go into hiding. Go and read this Time magazine website.

And I was, okay, but you know, I'm waiting for this, you know, boat to stop. Then I went into the internet cafe, went into the Time Magazine website. They clicked on it. So the headline, my heart, you know, went all the way to my throat. And then when I started reading the details, it went all the way to my stomach. I just was like,

It says there, a brilliant spy within Al-Qaeda thwarted a chemical attack against the New York subway just before the war in Iraq. And by the way, that plot remained secret for three years. No one knew about it. I mean, absolutely no one knew about it. And I was thinking, oh my God. I just read everything and then I realized that they even chose my birth name to identify me with.

And I was thinking out of the 4,000 bloody names in Arabic, you know, why they have to choose the name that I was born with and then even to hint that I am from Bahrain. Great. You might as well have put a crosshair on me, idiot. But also, I realized immediately that it wasn't a leak from the British. It was a leak from the Americans.

And they are the ones who decided that they want to claim my contribution as theirs.

and that I am their spy and their success story because they wanted a success story at that time when the Bush administration was under criticism that they have no effective espionage against Al-Qaeda and that this is why they are failing time and time again to do something. So they're saying, no, no, no, we already prevented quite a few attacks. We already have a spy inside Al-Qaeda. And he was claiming that I am an American spy

and that it is all the triumphs of the CIA. And I was thinking, no, they're not. So I was just running towards the phone booth. You know, of course, it was Sunday. So I called the emergency line, you know, and I gave the code name Lawrence. And I said, you know, emergency, emergency, like, you know, someone needs to call me immediately. And then the five minutes later, my handler called me. And he said, what's up? You know, of course, like, you know, he used the F word and everything and all of that. And he said,

Go to Garden Horde, get the first ticket back to Waterloo. It was Waterloo at that time instead of St. Pancras now. And we will wait for you there. Just, I have only one message for you. Don't worry. We will look after you. You don't have anything to worry about. We will look after you. Did you trust them? Yes. Straight away? Straight away. I mean, I have no other choice.

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So, Eamon, after all your successes, your career, spying career, ended rather abruptly when the US outed you in the Time article. Were there crisis talks at the time to see about, you know, ways they could get you back in? Was there some way of fooling people to think actually that wasn't the Ali they were talking about and get the journalist to write another article saying that the

The alley wasn't made up. I don't know, figuring out a way. Were there talks about that? Because you must have been so valuable. Get your bag in, right? No, that's it. The cat is out of the bag and you can't roll the dice with the lives of people like that. You know, I would love to have gone back. Like, I mean, I would have done it. But unfortunately, like, I mean, you know, the decision came from up.

No, it is for resettlement. So I became a resettlement case. That's what they call it, is it? Yeah, yeah, a resettlement case. And did they look after you? Well, judging by the fact, like, you know, basically, I mean, I lived all this time. And, you know, I went into a very respectable job at one of the biggest banks in the world. You know, I worked with them for nine years. I work as a consultant for many governments around the world, as well as

banks and private institutions. You know, I've done quite well for myself, multiple businesses, all of that. Like, and I mean,

Do they, you know, look after me? I mean, without any shadow of a doubt. I've always wondered, once you've left the security services, what happens when you see someone who you know is still in the service? Do you, is there a special look? I mean, do you catch someone's eye at one moment if you're in a cafe or something, knowing that that person works for MI6? And the two of you just know, but walk on by. Does that happen to you?

So it happened twice where, you know, I just get the look that ignore me. But the rest of the time, you know, they just come out of nowhere, big hugs, you know, pat on the back. Okay, yeah, I just left. I'm now in the private sector. Yay! Okay, I mean, let's sit down and let's talk about the good old days. And so...

Yeah, I mean, it happens a lot that out of nowhere, one of my previous handlers basically will just, you know, or the people I met before will, you know...

jump up out of nowhere, basically, like email me or get in touch on LinkedIn or social media, basically, and say, hey, remember? Yeah, hi. And then we'll say, well, I just retired. You know, we'd love to see you for dinner. Were there other spies you knew of while you were there at the camps? Did they have anyone else in or can you not talk about that now? Well, I don't know about the British, but...

We came to know about five others, but they were, of course, working for the Egyptians and the Jordanian intelligence services. And goodness, they met a grisly end. Yes, they were all in their 30s. I mean, over the three years I was spying against Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, I mean, basically five spies were caught. Three were working for the Egyptians and two for the Jordanians. So five in total.

And all of them were executed. And there was one actually who was Syrian, and he was working for one of the Gulf intelligence agencies, and he was handed over to the Taliban at the last minute because they intervened to take him from Al-Qaeda because he was supposed to be executed also. So actually six in total. And I remember that all of them were in their 30s. All of them were mature people. And I was always praising them

the professionalism and the wonderful training that MI6 gave me. And in particular, there was always this low expectations, this policy of low expectations. In other words, basically, Ayman, just go there, have fun, come back. If there is nothing to tell us about,

We are just happy that you're back in one piece. Since you've left and, you know, worked as you have since then and built a life for yourself in all these years afterwards, do you miss those days, those adrenaline-fueled days? Do you ever find yourself, you know, in a shop wondering what if or at an airport checkpoint thinking, wow, those days were different then? I mean, how do you reconcile that life now? Um...

I don't feel that I miss, you know, that sense of danger for a reason. I think it's just, I think up until 2017,

I was always thinking, what if I stayed in? What if there was no leak from the American side? What if I stayed in more and more? I could have gone to Iraq because I had an invitation to go to Iraq and to spend time with Zarqawi himself. I really, I mean, was going to do even more wonders, hopefully. And I was thinking like that. I would have thought, I always felt I didn't do enough.

You know, I always feel that. You always feel that, like when you are, you know, in that world that I didn't do enough. You know, you're always chasing that glory, I think. But then, of course, 2014, I got married. And this is when you start to think, and then slowly, gradually, you start to become domesticated, which wasn't easy. I think the moment my daughter was born, I think when I saw her for the first time, I thought,

There is no way in hell I'm going back to do anything risky whatsoever. I'm going to live to see this one get married and, you know, get that PhD and run that company. There's an Arab father speaking right there. Indeed.

Well, I'm really glad you've been able to have a life for yourself afterwards. And thank you so much for sharing all this. I could really go on. It's fascinating to know just how much insight you have into those times. So thank you for your time today. And thank you for answering our questions. Thank you so much. Much appreciated. Thank you.

Eamon's book is Nine Lives, my time as MI6's top spy inside Al-Qaeda. Or you can hear him on the Conflicted podcast. Well, this brings us to the end of our season on Eamon Dean. But do join us for the next season, The Spy Who Diffused the Missile Crisis, with my co-host, Indira Varma. Next time, we open the file on Oleg Penkovsky, the spy who diffused the missile crisis.

It's 1960, and the world hangs on the brink of nuclear war. However, one man in Moscow is about to emerge from the shadows with an offer for the CIA, an offer that included the Soviet Union's greatest nuclear secrets. His name is Oleg Penkovsky. Follow The Spy Who now wherever you listen to podcasts.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge full seasons of The Spy Who early and ad-free on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Across America, BP supports more than 300,000 jobs to keep our energy flowing. Jobs like expanding our biodiesel capacity in Washington state and reducing operational emissions in the Gulf of Mexico.

It's and, not or. See what doing both means for energy nationwide at bp.com slash investing in America. From Wondery, this is the final episode in our series, The Spy Who Betrayed Bin Laden. This bonus episode of The Spy Who is hosted by me, Raza Jafri. Our show is produced by Vespucci for Wondery with story consultancy by Yellow Ant.

The producer of this episode is Natalia Rodriguez. Our senior producer is Thomas Currie. Our sound designer is Ivor Manley. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frizz and Sink. Executive producers for Vespucci are Johnny Galvin and Daniel Turkin. The executive producer for Yellow Ant is Tristan Donovan. Our managing producer for Wondery is Rachel Sibley. Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Jessica Radburn and Marshall Louis.

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