The Definition of Success with author Neil Strauss
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In 2005, a book came out which sold millions of copies and stirred a lot of controversy. It was called The Game, written by Neil Strauss. And it's about the years Neil spent living amongst the pickup artist community, those awkward, borderline creepy guys who use manipulation tactics to pick up women.

Neil has totally reinvented himself since writing the game, and I wanted to speak with him about walking away from that identity of success. This led to a much deeper conversation about what success even is and what we owe ourselves versus what we owe society. More with Neil after this. AI might be the most important new computer technology ever. It's storming every industry, and literally billions of dollars are being invested. So, buckle up.

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For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Neil Strauss never intended for the game to become a manifesto for desperate guys trying to get laid or a feminist indictment against toxic masculinity. He just wanted to tell a story. Then the book did well, really well.

and by any metric was considered a wild success. But to Neil, meaningful success has to be something more than just money, more than just the finite wins. Does meaning have to be tied to outcomes? Or is having the right intentions enough?

This episode comes with a bit of a warning. The conversation will raise more questions than it offers answers. As you will hear, Neil and I do not see eye to eye on everything. But the reason I love talking to him is because he makes me think. He challenges my ideas. And I hope that's what this conversation does for you as well. I hope it challenges you about what the definition of success should be. This is a bit of optimism. Your career is a fascinating one because...

A lot of people in authors and stuff like that have an idea set and they build upon the idea set. You had an idea and got very famous for an idea set that you have almost entirely walked away from, which is the game. First of all, I want to know the history of how the game even came to be. I remember when it came out and the buzz, the stir that it caused. It was quite a sensation in its day. Yeah. I don't even think it would come out today. Let's tell people what the game was, first of all. Yeah.

So, and I'll answer what the game was is the same as how it came about. So they're one and the same thing, which is, and I already had a career prior to the game, meaning I was like writing at the New York Times as a music critic. And I'd go to all these concerts. I'd even go on tour with rock bands for writing for Rolling Stone. So it'd be around a lot of energy, sexuality, those kinds of things. And I was super shy, really nebbish and nerdy, more so than I am now.

And I wouldn't even be able to have this conversation if not for the game and look you in the eye and have this conversation and express myself. So I just saw everyone having all the fun. I was never the one having the fun. I went on tour with Motley Crue and thought, this is going to be decadence.

Maybe it was, but not for me. I'd even go get backstage passes and hand them out hoping to meet someone and they just say thank you and go backstage. Doing something wrong. Why is everyone else? Again, I was really lonely and anyone I met, I'd end up in the friend zone while they're dating some guy who's a jerk to them and I'm consoling them. I even remember I did a book on Marilyn Manson at the time and

his manager remembered a story where like i think i had a crush on someone i was like painting their room while they went out on a date i was just the worst like then i had a book editor i'd done a couple books and my book editor harper collins uh came to me and said i found this undercover community of pickup artists and the guys without money looks fame and they've figured out how this whole thing works do you want to do a

get to collect their information to a how-to book. I said, listen, I'm a journalist for the New York Times. Got a serious career. That's not something I do. So no, thanks. But thank you. Thanks for thinking of me. But secretly, I'm like, there's a community where these guys know this stuff. So, and I'm not having money, looks, or fame. I thought this is great. So I began this double life. Like I changed my name and I changed everything. I had this double life that I was actually scared of being found out. So I started meeting these guys and

Their personalities, their ideas were so fascinating that I thought, oh man, this is a book. And so I remember when I wrote the book, I wanted to write under another name. I was so scared. A lot of guys use this book to pick up women and it was described by the women as highly manipulative. So it's interesting what the book actually was versus how it was seen in the culture. Right. Yeah.

There's a difference between the techniques, the guys, the pickup artists using the book and what the book is. The book literally begins, it's the funniest thing by the way, and this isn't a bad thing, I don't mind. I think when you do create something, you throw it in the culture and now it's out of your control. - Correct. - And I'm happy they have any story about it. I'm happy anyone's reading it or read it. So it begins with the greatest pickup artist in the world trying to kill himself over a woman. He's suicidal, it begins with me taking him to a mental health crisis center. So is that really a book that says this is gonna end up well for you?

You know, like literally it begins with that guy. Like, and then the end is really about like how it turns you into a robot and destroys your personality. And to me, the game, again, I'm super naive at the time, but to me, the game was a book about male insecurity. And I literally thought, I really mean this is when I wrote it, I thought women would have more confidence when they saw how insecure and fearful men were. I have a female friend who read it specifically so she could

know when men were gaming her and she tells this great story of sitting on a plane and some guys you know saying whatever he's saying and i don't know i don't remember any of the principles like say something nice then insult them like whatever it was you know some of these weird principles and she literally turned him goes i read the game you can stop exactly no no exactly and there's there's so many sides to it's so complicated and and and nuanced and uh

and for sure it ends with lord of the flies all these sure before toxic masculinity was a term it ends with all these fake self-taught alpha males in a house all like trying to out alpha male each other it's almost like just become so toxic it's kind of a book about bro culture isn't it i mean it's like that's what it is well here's the difference

It's a book about neurodivergence. Bros don't read this book. Bros are, they're already like, you know, they don't need this. They're too cool. You know, they've already got off. Most of the people I met, and by the way, there were a few like real monsters in that world for sure. Most of them I met were neurodivergent people who were trying to figure out how to socially interact and just needed a map. I mean, I struggled with dating most of my life.

And I've talked about this publicly, a lot of ADHD. And so I overcompensated for the ADHD by jacking up with coffee before a date out of fear of not being funny, of not being charming. And so I needed to get the boost of energy for the evening. And I would come in like a bull in a China shop. And just, I thought I was very funny and charming. Problem was I was doing all the talking. I get it that it's a story of neurodivergence. I wonder what...

You said you could never write that again today, you said. A, why? And B, what about the principles that you learned in the game could be translated for people who are struggling with neurodivergence and meeting people today? I think you can still learn the same things, but without the agenda or the goal of an outcome. Like, how do I start a conversation with someone? Like, how do I get comfortable with myself? How do I actually connect? How do I...

How do I ask somebody who I meet online, like out in person, what's a good way to do that? So the difference is your goal to connect or is your goal to like take. Right. And I think that's what it's about. Yeah, I think intention matters. So just share one of the tips, like if somebody...

How to make somebody feel heard and seen. What are some of the good tips? Because I think people do struggle to connect. A lot of us are struggling to connect these days. There's much said about addictions to cell phones and social media, being disconnected, COVID, blah, blah, blah. The list goes on. What are some of the really great human skills that you've learned that actually do help in genuine connection without some sort of an agenda? I think I'd have to ask that question with me now versus me then. Let's do that. I guess.

When the book came out, I got a lot of calls from salespeople, marketing people. The FBI called me to come in and train their agents. I think those applications, it's really just understanding social dynamics. I think it's really important. The first step, I think, is just really understanding social dynamics and how they work and what people want and what they're looking for and what their agenda is. I think one step is just really understanding social dynamics. I would say the biggest thing is to stop worrying about what other people think of you.

and start realizing that they're worrying about what you think of them. I'd say the most freeing thing I learned then, and I think it's even more that I do it maybe 10x more now, is that I was really worried. I was walking around, everyone's just laughing, they're pointing, they're like, "Look at that guy. Sure, he's got a big nose. He's like a nerd, he's a loser," whatever it is. And then you realize, no, they're all worrying about being judged by you. So instead of trying to take validation from other people, giving people validation. Yeah. That is a wonderful insight.

While we're all walking around worried about what people think of us, what we don't realize is they're walking around worried about what people think of them. That is such a brilliant insight. And to operate from that point of view and to make somebody feel seen or heard or understood is about the best thing you can give to someone. Yeah. And even here's an example of how we don't do it. So we're in LA. I'd say you're at the LA stand and someone pulls up in a bright yellow loud Lamborghini and gets out. And right away you want to be like, oh, what a douchebag. Yeah.

or what an asshole or whatever it is. But instead, you just want to say like, hey, nice car, man. Like that person just wants, they were driving around that thing because they just want some valid validation. So instead of like judging them. Drive a car in bright yellow if you don't want people to see you. So there's an exercise again, like I really do think they're- To be seen. Yeah. So there's an exercise where you, to get over social anxiety, you go out and try to make three or four people feel better about themselves that day by saying something kind about them.

The best way to solve your problems is to help other people solve the same problem. I've talked about the 12-step programs of Alcoholics Anonymous or any other 12-step program. They know that if you master the first 11 steps but not the 12th, you're likely to succumb to the disease. But if you master the 12th step,

you will more likely overcome the disease. And the 12th step is to help another alcoholic, which is service. If I'm struggling with how to find love, how to find a job, how to find happiness, the best way to do it is to help somebody I care about find love, find a job, find happiness. For sure. Being other-oriented instead of self-oriented is a nice way to put it. And I think we'd probably be a better...

world that we didn't really like not being needy energy. So the other side is like, one of my pet peeves is when somebody says, you know what? I did that for them and they did nothing for me and they didn't repay that. Like people get so upset if they do something kind for someone and that person then doesn't return the favor, do something kind with it for them. Like you do kindness just as an end in itself. Right? So there are people who go out

Maybe give people compliments or they listen people they try to help them, but they're trying to get something for it Yeah, yeah, sure, right they make that connection because they want so you really have to do it purely with no neediness I think the most biggest turnoff is when someone's just too needy Do you still see yourself the same way as you did when you wrote the game? No, not at all Not like like barely. I mean, I really think like the bigger transformation I had was like no surprise was going to sex addiction rehab and

That was really the bigger transformation. Clearly, there were things that led me to the game that came not from the game itself, but came from my upbringing. I think the bigger the game maybe, to me, the benefit of what I learned in the game was it showed me that I can change that. Then I think then it was questionable what, even if you recognize the game, was what drew me into the game, what seduced me by that lifestyle?

did I become so obsessed with it? What was wrong with me? You know, even if the book, you know, even if the end I said, oh, this is bad. What caught me up in that and everything? And so I remember I was having a dinner with like two other writers who wrote probably like the most famous books on seduction, that kind of thing. And we were just talking. We found out we had the same kind of mother figure in our lives. And I said, well, that makes sense. It's a fear. It's a fear of

the feminine and trying to figure out the tactics and the techniques is to make you safe from something you feared because you grew up with a toxic narcissist okay i can't leave this behind what did you learn at sex addiction counseling reform yeah i mean first of all i'd like i learned like before then i thought i was the i was the normal one who wrote about all the eccentric damaged people the pickup artists in the game the rock stars you know for rolling stone

And then I realized, I remember this moment where you do your timeline. Did you ever have to do your timeline? And so I wrote down all my peak positive memories and peak negative memories from zero to 17. Sat there, therapist is across from me and she goes, "Well, you know why you've never been in a healthy relationship?" I'm like, "No." And she goes, "Because your mom wants to be in a relationship with you." And that's when, as surreal, as weird as that sounds, even at the time, and she's like, and there's a name for that, it's called emotional incest.

and i'm like what the well my logic was going what the well my body like felt this truth of it all of a sudden all my childhood stuff made sense like again like just to go overshare like being grounded all the time like massaging her hand like her coming in my room and complaining about how my dad was in bed not being cut off when i wanted to live with a girl in college or something all of a sudden everything just made sense my body felt the truth of that and i think it's true that

In the culture, we understand abandonment when a parent's not there physically or emotionally, but we don't recognize enmeshment because it feels, it's like falsely elevating. Like abandonment is you feel like nothing, but when you're enmeshed, you're like, oh, I'm mom or dad's special person. They talk to me, they share this stuff with me, or I make them feel better when they're sad. It's sort of, I take care of the family. It's sort of falsely empowering. And so it's hard to see and recognize. And then I recognized and I realized that

There was a part of me that was afraid to just be vulnerable and surrender because I was afraid of being swallowed up again. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. You're very open. Did that come from being around people who are struggling and being forced to be open or-

There's a difference between being open with yourself, which is difficult, and then being open out loud. Yeah. I think two reasons. One is, I think maybe when I was writing for Rolling Stone, I would always encourage, as an interviewer, being on the other side of it. I'd really try to get people comfortable enough to be open, and then also honor that when I shared it. I would never do a gotcha thing. When I was on the other side of the microphone, I did recognize that I need to give what I wanted. The other side of it is like,

My whole goal is just to be a health, continue working to be a healthier person. And I think if you create a split between who you are and who you present,

that's super unhealthy. I think that's most people, right? I mean, some sort of artifice is required. When you meet people in professional or personal context, we all want to project some sort of confidence. We can't project defeatism. We'd never make friends. I mean, there's always a bit of artifice. And I think this is where relationships, you become vulnerable. You start to break down the artifice. But to your point, which is if we never break down the artifice,

then that's unhealthy. Yeah, I think there's lines of what's healthy and unhealthy. So I think healthy is being vulnerable. And then the other line is healthy shame. Healthy shame is what we need to have a little bit of shame because everyone's in this world that get rid of shame. Shame is bad. Every emotion is good.

in the right degree healthy shame as well we're going to wear clothes when we're together you know uh we are going to uh depending on where we're getting together I guess exactly it's like joke on the first date with no clothes how can you I have no shame right exactly how do you know shame is actually an expression yeah exactly exactly like all our wounds like all our wounds came from people who were shameless

My mom was shameless with her boundaries around me. People were shameless with all kinds of things. Let's say that again. All of our wounds come from others who were shameless. Yes.

They had no shame, which is they violated boundaries. Right. And that lack of shame created woundedness. So draw the line for me, because we are all the products of our upbringing. Right. Warts and all, right? Where's the line of accountability? You know, that we say, look, I am like this because, you know, I was enmeshed with my mother. I'll say for me, my accountability is 100% mine. In other words- So regard, it doesn't matter how your mother treated you. I'm responsible. You're responsible for your behavior. I see myself-

because I want to speak for other people, I see for myself, I'm responsible for the stories I made up about that. That allows me to then change because if I'm responsible, then I'm in control of changing it. I see for me that those are variables that occurred. These variables helped me understand myself. There's no blame involved. Certainly, there are cases where people are straight up perpetrators. There's a place for everything in the healing process. The healing process to me is a few steps you go through at certain times and

And just like you were saying, the 12th step of AA is the service. I think the end of the healing process, if you're trying to heal something, is the forgiveness piece where you actually, and again, most people never get there. I understand it's really challenging for some people, but that piece of forgiveness that you can forgive yourself and even let go of any energy you hold around the other person. And that's real freedom. We'll be right back.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything. A moment that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I talk to people about navigating these very moments. The last couple of years has been the hardest season of our marriage for sure.

I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are. I think we both were barely holding on. Nothing compares to how hard this is. Their stories are full of candor, awe, and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change. True behavior change is really identity change. Every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

There's two kinds of people. I want to get your thought on this. People who believe there are two kinds of people. And everyone else. People who believe there's just one kind of person like them. Exactly. So there's people who try to bring others down, right? To get to them, or there's people who kind of raise themselves up. To feel better about yourself, there are many things you can do. You can lift others up or you can bring others down. I think that's true.

And I guess my question or something I'm just seeing in the culture now, there's so much criticism we're trying to bring others down. Yes. I can even see it having been a journalist for a long time. Like something Mark Zuckerberg is a sex symbol now, right? Or something. I don't know. People are literally like, oh, he looks hot with that gold chain or I don't know what is going on. And he wants his AI to be open source. Somehow Mark Zuckerberg, I see him going back up on the pendulum in this moment, in this exact moment we're having this conversation. Yeah.

But the culture likes to take people and kind of bring them down as soon as they get big. And when they're little, they want to kind of bring them back up. What do you think that is in the culture that we have to, if someone gets too arrogant or too big, they have to be sort of- Kept in check. Kept in check. I think we've become a very finite society where the idea of vision and idealism is almost lost.

And leaders do not speak in idealized terms anymore. They don't speak of imaginary futures that will never exist. I have a dream, all men are created equal. Ask not what your country can do for you, like shining city on a hill. These are all idealized states of the world that will never exist, but we'll try and build them. When there's vision and there's idealism, we all share in that vision, or a lot of people will share in that vision.

And we feel community and we feel supportive of the people in that community. Lack of vision means it's every man for themselves. It's every person for themselves. And we've doubled down on rugged individualism. And so if I'm insecure, I cannot bear the thought that you're happy when I'm not.

And it's easier for me to bring you down than lift me up because that's hard work. And I feel very alone. I think everybody feels like they're forced to be on this journey by themselves. I think we've been on this road of feeling lonely and feeling like we've heroized CEOs. It used to be the company. Now it's the person. And that's the problem, which is we now live in a world of I am the genius or I'm not the genius.

I am the success or I'm not the success. And we've completely forgotten that we're social animals. And all of these things can only happen with the love and help of others. I am not successful. And I've even shared this with my friends. I say, I'm the front man. So people give me all of the love, but make no mistake of it.

anything I've accomplished in the world, you are due some of the credit. You were there for me when I couldn't. You were there for me when I doubted myself. You believed in me when nobody else did. And there's no way I can take all the credit. But I guess the other question I'm thinking is just, well, what is success? Everybody's in their own lane. I'm just thinking about what you said as far as make sure one gets a credit on their team. But then I also think that everybody has a wheelhouse where they're great and where they're trying to improve and trying to be better and recognizing them for

for that somebody who makes that choice to just just not work and raise a family or not work and just travel the world with their partner or to sacrifice family and travel and adventures to to try to create art or create political change like

Everything is equally valid. And it goes back to my, I'm realizing it's fun having this talk because I'm realizing how I think versus you not asking me the standard sort of questions that in the book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible, the advice is, and I'm not even a religious person, but it's about grow your own garden, plant it, grow this beautiful garden. And no, it doesn't really make a difference, but just be happy doing it.

And I think if everyone's finding the thing that they like doing enough and they're creating something more beautiful or something that doesn't hurt others, I think there's not much to it. I don't know. I don't know if I agree with that. Go ahead. I think that's selfish. We are individuals and members of groups. We're social animals, but we're also ourselves. And yes, you're you, but you're also a father, a friend, a member of a community, a partner.

you have social responsibility and your behavior does have real and significant impact in the lives of others, as you've explained about your own mother, right? That significant impact in your life. And so I do believe that

We have a personal responsibility to plant our gardens is just be satisfied. Yes, as an individual. But as a member of a group, I think we do have a responsibility to leave this world in better shape than we found it. If you work for a company, leave the company in better shape than you found it. Leave this country in better shape than you found it. Leave your family in better shape than you found it. How do you... That old parable of the horse, the Zen parable of the horse. Do you know that one? Go on. It's like, how do we know that we're really in better shape? What's the parable? The parable is...

And just stop me if you know it. But the farmer, I'm going to butcher it like everything. But the farmer-- MARK BLYTH: You're going to butcher the horse? DAVID ABEL: I'm going to butcher the horse like everything, yes. So there's a farmer, and his horse runs away. And everyone's like, that's a horrible thing. That sucks. You need him for your farm. He goes, I don't know if it's good or bad. We'll see.

Horse comes back and brings a bunch of other wild horses back with him. And they're like, look at you. Now you have like five horses. You're like the richest farmer in the whole territory. Look at you. That's amazing. It's like, I don't know if it's amazing or it's not amazing. We'll see. Then his son's riding the horse and his son falls off, like breaks his leg really badly. Can't walk.

And they never walked the same again. Like, oh man, that sucks. That happened to your horse. If only that horse had brought all those other horses back. He's like, I don't know if it's good or bad. We'll see. The next thing there's a draft and the son isn't drafted because he broke his leg and it saves his life. And the story goes on and on. And we could, you could go create the biggest, best fulfill your exact mission. And maybe because of that, someone else reacts against it and creates the

a bunch of evil in the world, we don't know the outcome of what we're doing. In the big, big picture, there's so much complicated cause and effect that you may save someone's life and they may go on to kill 10 people, right? That was the right thing to do and now 10 people are dead because we don't know the... I always have the saying, the outcome is not the outcome. That's just a finite outcome, right? It goes back to everything we're saying about the contracts and everything else. But here's what I'm saying is,

That doesn't mean to advocate responsibility for contribution just because it might not work out in the short term, because then to your own story, which is by the way, the quintessential story for infinite mindedness, which is yes,

But then, but then, but then, but then, like we don't know. Okay. What I'm saying is be responsible for what you're actually responsible for. Don't assume that my goal, like I think when we're saying there's no effect you can control outside of yourself. So doing the right thing. I think we might be. I think we're saying the same thing. I think we're in violent agreement here. Yeah. Which is control the things you can control, be responsible for things you're responsible with. But do it with an eye of contribution. Yeah. I mean, I think again,

I don't know. I don't want to tell people. For some people, contributing may not be the right thing. I think I'm happy to tell people that contribution's a thing. There might be people who really just want to live this life and be alone and not be bothered and just read books. I don't know. It's okay. I want to say it's okay not to contribute. It's okay. I need to think about that example. Yeah. Because that example is, except if you're Ted Kaczynski, where you literally are a person who's removed yourself from society.

By the way, he couldn't fully do it. He had to go threaten the world. I am saying be responsible for other people. Don't do things that you know that intentionally cause harm. Contribution is such a low bar. Ordering a cup of coffee and saying please and thank you. Well, that's healthy shame. Contribution, to go into the world and make sure that you make someone's life that you interacted with just slightly better.

Right. But here's where we're differing.

Let's go here because there's a little hair to split, but let's split it for fun. Because like you said, we're finally agreeing. So my thought is- My thought is- Next on this episode of Splitting Hairs. By the way, Splitting Hairs is incredibly fun for us. It's incredibly painful for other people to listen to. You can cut it all out. I don't care. It's just you and I talking. I don't care about it. It's just you and I having a conversation. Okay. You want to contribute, I want to have a good conversation with you. You want to contribute to all those people, I just want to have a good conversation with you. Selfish. Selfish bastard. We'll be right back.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity.

For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

Listen to Law & Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything. A moment that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I talk to people about navigating these very moments.

The last couple of years has been the hardest season of our marriage for sure. I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are. I think we both were barely holding on. Nothing compares to how hard this is. Their stories are full of candor, awe, and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change. True behavior change is really identity change. Every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And really, our whole thing on this too is this. If I go out and I say, please and thank you when I'm ordering my coffee, that's just the right thing to do. But I don't have the, I'll just say extreme for fun, but I have the arrogance of thinking this is making their life better because that guy walked in and said, please and thank you.

It goes back to your standard of intention. It goes back to you don't know what's right for other people. By the way, I know there's cultural differences. In the United States, if I'm in a restaurant, almost always I'll ask the server, what's your name? It's considered polite in this country. Then I can say, thanks, Stacy, every time something comes to the table. That's considered a good thing.

Not so in Norway. I was in Norway and sat down and asked the server her name and she said, why? I was like, just so I'd be polite. Just trying to contribute here. That's what I do. I'm a contributor. What does it matter? You don't ask the server their name. It's considered incredibly...

uncouth and they're all introverts anyway. And so like making, closing those intimate gaps freaks them all out. So, you know, so it is cultural, but the differences are sometimes cultural, but that doesn't mean that I shouldn't learn how to contribute consistent with whatever the norms and values are of Norway. Right. So define contribute as you see it. Okay. We talked about accountability and responsibility. So that I am accountable and responsible for my actions and my words, and will attempt to go through life

in a way that my actions and my words leave whatever situation slightly better than when I showed up. And it's a very, that's a hard standard because you can't do it all the time, obviously. But I think as an ambition, I would like to know that my friends have a better life because I'm in their lives. So can we do the right thing without needing to be responsible for the outcome? Can we do the right thing? Can we still have the motivation to do the right thing with others at all time without taking on responsibility for the outcome?

That's a hard question. I think the answer is yes. Like if your intentions are good, I think it's hard to fault you, you know? And the means matter more than the ends. Right. So here's my thought here. I think I figured out the error. You guys can wake up now. I figured out the error. This is it. You and I say the same thing. We're drawing the responsibility, the boundary of responsibility at different places. Say more. Okay. So my boundary is right here.

Nick, for those who are not looking visually, Neil has just made a line in the air between me and him. Because we are no longer friends after this. The boundary is here. So what I'm saying is this. All I can control are my...

All I can control is myself. I can't control you or anything else. I want to contribute. Let's say I want to contribute to your life and I say, "Take that trip you always want to take." But I'm not responsible whether you take it or not. I'm not responsible. What I'm saying is, with your things, I want to contribute. If you want to contribute, then it means you also have to take responsibility if your effort to contribute ends in a disaster.

So I encourage you to take that trip you've always wanted to take. Which means if you're measuring... And the plane crashes, I... You're now responding... If you're in the afterlife, by your version, God then gives you the scorecard and say, here are all the people you interacted with. These people's lives got better. These people's lives got worse. You tried to do the right thing, but unfortunately, it's like 74 to 22, so I'm sending you to hell. My God, you're cynical. No, I'm not cynical, but I'm saying it. No, I'm not cynical. And I'm not even going to say that I'm...

healthier because I'm really just saying like, if I'm saying I want to make sure I contribute to everything around me, it's different than my intention is to contribute. If I'm contributing it, then it's really exhausting because I'm responsible for all the outcomes. No, you're not responsible for the outcome. Just like it's, I mean, whether we're right or wrong, whether this is good or bad,

is irrelevant what i really like about this conversation is it's anyone who's listening has forced to think about this yeah like we're forced to think about or they're forced to just press like the 2x or forced to just skip to another podcast buy supplements so okay so let me just try to summarize the points that move on which is this see if this sounds right to you okay

I think what we both share is you're trying to be kind and do the right thing and be thoughtful about the way you're interacting with each other. My version is that's enough in and of itself. You're adding the extra piece of the thought and the goal of contribution. Yes. Okay.

We should just do our own podcast. Philosophical hair splitting with Neil and Simon. Back to what I said, I really listen closely and I really want to understand. I both want to understand for myself if there's something to learn or to think about that. But I really sense a theme in what you're saying, which is you really sort of- Here's what somebody said to me once, right?

I got this advice. This is literally how they delivered it. I got this advice once from someone. They said, Simon, you live in the world. You're not alone. You live in a world. There are other people. There are interactions. You can't be completely blind to that just because then your own definition of kind has to be relative to the world you live in. What I would say is you live in your world.

and he lived in his world, and I live in my world. -And we also live in this world. Your world interacts with my world whether you like it or not. -My story interacts with your story, and his story interacts with our story, and we're all living out of these very different stories. You have a contribution story. I have a uncertainty story. This is just two stories meeting. The point being is this, I see the world in terms of story, in terms of like,

Everybody's got a story. Wars are fought over stories. We're being surrounded by enemies. Everything's story. Either people have a story they tell themselves, people have a story they sell to others, people have these stories. What I'm playfully challenging is saying, well, it's good that we buy our own story and it's good if our story adds something good to the world. Maybe at the end of the day, recognizing we're just trying to live a story you believe in and believe it's the right thing. In the end, we really don't know.

And that's my positive note for this. But I think accepting uncertainty is part of happiness. We're completely in alignment. My talk of contribution doesn't eliminate anything you say. And I think uncertainty is a large part of it, which is why everything we're talking about, like the fact that we even have a conversation about this. And we really are splitting hairs. We totally are. We are in the weeds. Yeah, that's right. The reason is for one reason and one reason only, which is uncertainty. I don't actually know and neither do you. We have no idea. And I find that

magical and empowering because uncertainty is the place where things can happen. Yeah. I mean, I think also people accepted uncertainty. We'd be living in a better, safer, happier world. So hard for people to accept. On that note, Neil, you always get me thinking, even though this is the end of the conversation, this won't be the end of me thinking about the questions you've raised.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenik.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jha and Greg Reutershen, and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer.

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For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end. It sent the message that we can prosecute these people. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Andrea Gunning, host of the all-new podcast There and Gone. It's a real-life story of two people who left a crowded Philadelphia bar, walked to their truck, and vanished. A truck and two people just don't disappear. The FBI called it murder for hire. But which victim was the intended target and why? Listen to There and Gone South Street on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.