Remember Love with the poet Cleo Wade
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We are told from a young age to pursue love.

Self-love, romantic love, divine love. But what exactly is love? And whether you can figure that out or not, how are we supposed to work towards it? Well, Cleo Wade is the right person to talk to. She's a poet whose latest book is called Remember Love, Words for Tender Times. And she thinks a lot about love. Our conversation led down many paths. We talked about balancing the beauty and catastrophe of the world.

appreciating pain, staying present, and the resurgence of poetry. I hope you will love this conversation as much as I did. This is a bit of optimism.

You are a poet. And what I find funny about having poets in our modern day is it sounds medieval. It really does. It's like you're a blacksmith, you're a cooper, and you're a poet. We have a poet laureate in this country. There's a poet laureate in the UK. And if somebody said, you know, we have a poet laureate, you'd be like, we do? We still have one of those? Didn't we get rid of those? Yeah.

The 1800s. And so I'm fascinated by, A, what it feels like to be a poet in a modern day where it doesn't seem to be a thing anymore. Like kids don't say one day I'm going to be a poet.

And it was hard actually, like 10 years ago when I was writing Heart Talk, I feel like I sold my first book door to door like a Mary Kay salesman. Like I feel like I sold every single one myself because no one understood the concept even at the time. It's like people know poetry, but it had just dropped out of popular culture. It's really interesting, right? Art should reflect our times. And it seems like poetry is one of those media that...

got forgotten where if somebody says I want to be a musician you're like oh good yes wonderful you know I want to be an artist I want to be a painter oh good if you say I want to be a poet people look at you like you're dropping out of society and so I love that you're part of this movement to bring back an art form that it's quite accessible to everyone the thing is is that

And you have to know this as a writer, no matter what you're writing. You are never having a thought that has not been had before, ever. You just aren't. And if you search for that, you'll never put anything into the world because it'll never be perfect enough to make that happen.

and untruthing true. No matter what poem you have read, there's some version of it in the Quran or the Bible. Like it is a sense there has been a way to communicate. People have wanted to communicate in stories and in emotional expression. In verse. In verse. So,

I think what you notice more is when something comes through the center, it's actually because people are focused on like, how do I communicate in a way that people can hear right now? And that's really important. It's important in

romantic relationships, right? Do you ever have that thing where you want to tell someone something, whether it's professional or romantic or a friend, and you're like, well, I have to wait till they can hear it. And I think that as a writer, for me at least, my process is I try to write in a way that I feel that people have the capacity to hold the information. I don't think I'm giving new information. I don't think if I write about love or vulnerability or whatever, that that does not exist in

a zillion different iterations throughout time and even currently. But what I'm always focused on is how can you hear this? I think Taylor Swift does that. I think Bob Dylan did that. At a very specific time in culture, you have to believe that those people spoke to an energy, not just an idea. Because

What does that mean? I think it means I kind of look at it like when I think about Taylor Swift. You mean like a zeitgeist? Is that like capturing a moment in time? Part of what I feel like when you see people like Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Taylor Swift –

It's almost as if like how they release things, what they release, what they're saying. It's like they're turning a radio dial, finding like a spiritual intunement to like what is this kind of undercurrent where everyone can have a completely different life experience, but somehow this message and how it's delivered just works. I think at least...

leader of a Christian megachurch is able to do that. Like they have something where they are so tapped in energetically to their community. Yeah, their listeners. I feel something beyond the stories they're telling me. There's a feeling underneath I connect to. Two questions. Do you remember your first poem you ever wrote? Okay, so I went to a

creative arts summer camp in Louisiana. And I got a scholarship, but poetry was something you could take in fifth period. And everyone said that you got to take a nap if you went to this. And really, what I realize now is that she was just asking us to meditate. And this woman who's my first poetry teacher, and she's like, I just want you to write something on the page that doesn't make sense. I want you to think of every color you've ever seen a bird in and now describe the one bird you've never seen. And

That so deeply hit me as a kid that I tell the story to this day. And I remember describing a rainbow bird. And I remember thinking, here's all these things about this bird I'd never seen. And that was my first poem I'd ever written. It was about a bird I'd never seen. I don't think that if she wouldn't have given me that early definition of

There's no good and there's no bad. There's only you because it's just what you've never seen. This is such a lovely thought. There is no right or wrong or good or bad. There's just you. And I think –

we're social animals. We live in community. We can't help ourselves but compare. I mean, that's the insidiousness of social media, right? And we do it all the time. We do it with jobs, right? Grass is always greener. Like somebody else's job was always better than my job. Somebody else's partner is always better than my partner. Somebody else's vacation is always better than my vacation. We can't help ourselves. You know, Teddy Roosevelt said, you know, comparison's the thief of joy. I can't write in comparison to so many people and so many poets. You know what I mean? Like Maya Angelou couldn't write

If it was about what her background was or what was the right or wrong way to write. Do you know what I mean? She was a dancer. She was a singer. She was like an entertainer, but she had something to say in a really unique way to say it. But it was not because she had the background of a scholar. Like Oprah was...

She kind of was a beauty queen at first. You know what I mean? Like she – but she had a very her way to be in community with people in this kind of light and leadership. But there's a limit, right? And I think that all of these things have real definition that sometimes become distorted like the discussion about boundaries. Boundaries are important.

But they're not about pushing others away or using boundaries as a means of like shirking responsibility. And I think this is another one, which is, you know, like somebody who's mean to somebody else and says, just speaking my truth. I'm like, that's not what that means. It's so crazy because a couple of days ago, somebody asked me something like, you know, we all struggle to be honest with each other. You know, like I was having a hard day the other day and someone said, how are you? And I just immediately said, I'm great. Thanks. Like,

And she's like, should I have just told them the truth? And I was like, well, like... Context. And you have to take responsibility for your energy. Like...

Because like you are an adult. That's what I say. Like, what is mine to hold? What is mine to give away? What is mine to let go of? What is mine to share? Because those are ways that we take responsibility for being like another adult in the room and knowing that our life story is not the center of anybody else's life stories. I don't think it's helpful. I don't think it's something that is likable even just for those who

desire to be in community in a way where we get to like enjoy each other's company to emotionally dumb trauma bond erase other people's like boundaries or capacity and I think that that's really important my kind of question is always like well where can honesty integrity and responsibility of self all be held let me tell you where my mind goes

I'm scared. There's a metaphor here. I'll meet somebody for the first time and I'll put my hand out to shake their hand. Nice to meet you, I'll say. And they put their arms out. They go, I'm a hugger. I hugged you today. Now I'm embarrassed. No, no, no, no, no. It's fine. I did that. I literally did that. It was perfectly mutual. But the point is that somebody will come in and say, I'm a hugger.

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm sorry. But this idea that my truth is like the hug that trumps all else in the room, you know, that it's a game of rock, paper, scissors. And I think the idea of helping people be in touch with their emotions and be self-aware, so good. Look, I'm in this as well. You and I are sort of two sides of a similar coin, which is we want people to love their work and demand good leadership and live love and be yourself and be aware and, you know, speak your truth and all of these magical things. And the one little piece...

That often gets left out in all these messages is and you live with other people. Yeah. And there are other people in the room, in your life, in the world that have their own stuff. And yes, you have to be you, but you have to be sort of aware of our surroundings. And I think that's the piece that's missing. And I'm going to bring it back. Your work on love and there was one thing you wrote and I'm going to screw it up, which I loved.

Which is self-love and the practice. What was it? It's if self-love says I love you, self-care says prove it. That's it. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

I think there's sort of like the action of like living in a world with other people. And the work of love, though there is an internal love and a self-love, the even better kind of love is the shared love. But to have just self-love with no shared love, I'm not sure that's healthy. And you can survive lack of self-love or struggles with self-love if someone else loves you.

Well, and I think what we have to ask ourselves and, you know, Bell Hooks did such amazing work and really asking us to define love. You know, she had a great definition of love and she really like, you know, I think spent most of her literary career saying, define it, define it, define it. So you know when it's present, you know when it's not. And to me, if I'm putting a word in my definition of love, I'm going to put the word safety. I don't feel that love is happening if safety is not present, if feeling safe is not there. Right.

I don't think that we are safe when we are alone, and I think that community is essential to safety. So if I'm chasing after, looking for, wanting love for myself or anyone I care for, I know that the only way to have safety be possible is for community to be present, which is why you probably – This is so good. It's not a surprise that Martin Luther King Jr.,

preached everything towards beloved community. He's like, beloved community solves all our problems. Wanting like beloved community, like where love is happening between all of us. And then if we can, you know, kind of pick up on bell hooks and say like, well, then what's love? Who pauses to define love? And recently it was really interesting because

I think it was my friend DeRay. He posted something that said – it was someone's tweet and it said, you know, we need to normalize not calling everyone our friends. Some people are colleagues. Some people are school friends. Some people are this. I was thinking about how we should also do that with love, like this idea that we are either in love with someone or we are not. The second day I was with him, I just knew I was in love. Like can we start to pull distinctions like –

I was deeply infatuated. I was maybe even obsessed. I wrote a lot about heartbreak over the last couple of years. And at some point I wrote something that said like, I'm not even sure it was love. It was more like something that demanded you call it love. Every single time in reviewing the 10 years that I like thought about, I always called it love and it was always something else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's so good. Love and safety are great. I love that.

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Let me change subjects on you. You said something when you walked in which piqued my interest. You said the world is just beauty and catastrophe. I just feel like especially right now, and I really hate investing in these polarities, right? Because this idea of like

We have become obsessed with right and wrong so much so that we don't allow inner contradictions, which is the nature of our being. I think with people right now, it's just that the – I don't know if there's just this kind of groundswell of like whether it's the culture we're living in where we're not really having enough space to –

Process and everything maybe feels really overwhelming and there's a lot of space to go to numb. And I don't know what it is, but how things are hitting feel like the most beautiful thing in the world or the greatest possible catastrophe. But aren't all times beauty and catastrophe? What makes our time so different that it feels beautiful?

like it's only beauty and catastrophe because birth and death have existed since the dawn of humankind and there's war and there's magic and you know every every kind of

generation on earth likes to believe that their generation is the time where the one like big change is happening when really we have just consistently had trouble in change in a consistently changing world. And so for some reason, it just never stops being surprising. It's like that. So you have that like one friend or one person maybe you work with and they always do the same thing you fucking hate. And then you act like you're outraged every time and

And you're just like, I just can't believe it. And you have no idea why you can't believe it. Like when I say the nature of us is a certain way, the nature of the world is a certain way. Do you know? Like we are seasonal. This world is seasonal. We are fragile. This world is fragile. We have this kind of weird sturdy and toughness. The world has freaking oak trees that survive every hurricane in New Orleans. Like –

It's crazy. I think this is where your work lives and I think why your work resonates with so many people because we have minimal control over beauty and catastrophe and you can't simply change your mindset. When there's a birth of one of, you know, yourself or your best friend, you can't look at this child and be like, oh, but the world they're going to live in is horrible and climate change and this is a time to be mournful at the birth of this child. And at the same time, when you lose a loved one,

You can't in the moment say, oh, but, you know, they lived a full life and isn't it magical? Like we can't turn catastrophe and beauty into the other with our mindset. However, the space in between, this is where I think we have more control. And this is where I think, as I was saying, where I think – because you were like the patron saint of love. And I guess in modern day, you were the promoter of love. And I think –

that is about an attitude and that is a practice that if you bring that to the middle, that's where life exists. - So as you were saying that something I was thinking about is this idea of what I'm saying, like we have like only beauty and catastrophe and perhaps that's what I mean, our main catalyst in a way. So for example,

When I was talking to you about that, I was saying that my best friend's father passed a couple days ago, and you have the moment in the time of the catastrophe, and then that in-between is actually like, okay,

Who's in the kitchen making sure mom gets some cinnamon raisin bread in the morning? Who's keeping the notes of like, you know, everyone who sent flowers? So life flows like giant pebbles that get dropped into a water and then everything in between is probably that ripple of like flow you're finding in the doing and the being. And so...

It's a fresh theory because I did just – You just said it about 10 minutes ago. About 10 minutes ago. But I was just kind of thinking about it in the car. I was like, wow. And then, for example, I have a rough travel day home and I get home and my three-year-old crawls at my bed and puts her hand on my face and says, I miss you so much. Beauty, right? My nervous system kind of –

mellows out and I can kind of get into today. Since I learned about this thing called the infinite game, I've adopted this mindset of the infinite mindset. And the original definition of finite and infinite games came from this magical philosopher and theologian named James Kars. Basically, where I've learned to adopt the infinite mindset is nothing is final. Everything is simply a moment on a continuum and to think of life as a continuum. And so, I mean, I'm thinking out loud with you now to say that life is

catastrophe and beauty that neither of those things is permanent. This is why to love beauty is important.

because it's going to go away. But at the same time, there are always lessons in magic that comes out of catastrophe and tragedy and loss as well. You know, it's really crazy. My friend's mom said this to me one day. I was talking to her and her daughter, both of whom had gone through a divorce. And her daughter said something about her divorce and her mom got kind of emotional feeling like sad about her pain. And her daughter says, you know, yeah, the pain, the pain.

And her mom says, you know, but the pain's okay. And I said, why is the pain okay? Because I never felt like I fully subscribed to that idea of like, you can't understand pleasure without pain. I don't think that's true. I think like what feels good feels good. I don't think like... It's not a comparison. I don't think I need to know like what burning my hand on the stove feels like in order to like know how delicious chocolate ice cream is. Like, I just don't. I don't think so. So...

She said, pain is the only thing that makes you question life.

She goes, you know, when something awful happens, you say, why God? Why me? Why this? And she's like, and you can't actively decide where you want to go or what you want to be doing without asking questions. She goes, when you're happy, you don't think. And that's why happiness is so great. And I remember being like, whoa, that finally made that kind of distinction between pleasure and pain really resonate for me because I was like, yes, of course. It's actually like –

Damn, I would have never asked. She's like, you don't question anything in joy. Thankfully, you're not being like, why am I so happy? You're feeling it. And she was just like, pain will create your spiritual relationship. Most people who have these really beautiful spiritual relationships to whatever, they're

come from a space of rock bottom. It truly comes from getting to their bottom, seeing they have no foundation, and then asking themselves how to create one. Yeah. But let me play devil's advocate for a second here, right? Because to your point that when we're in joy or bliss or whatever you want to call it, and we cease to ask questions, we think to ourselves,

This is it. I found passion. I found purpose. Here it is. This is it. I'm done looking. Yeah. Right? Whereas when we're in that extreme pain, we also give up sometimes. You know, like you have a horrible breakup. Yeah. You know, I'll never find love. Yeah. Which of course is not true. Yeah. And so I think there's blindness sometimes.

In both extremes. And though I think the idea of in pain we ask questions and there's blindness and bliss, which I think is true, I think there's also false narrative that this is the end of the road on either side. Like I found the thing. Nope. This too shall pass. And I will never. Nope. This too shall pass. I think being present is not getting lost in either one. Yeah.

It's moderating, right? And maybe this is cynical. I believe that life is always balanced, right? And I talk about this in terms of entrepreneurship very often. In the corporate world, your lows are not that low, but your highs are not that high. It's balanced. Where if you choose an entrepreneurial journey-

Your highs are so high, but your lows are so low. It's always balanced. And it's not better or worse. It's just a question of where would you prefer to live your life? Like what degree of balance do you want to live? Because you're going to get the balance. And I think this is the case here as well, which is instead of living life where the highs are so high and I become so blind and the lows are so low that I become so blind that if I want the lows to be moderated,

In other words, don't worry, you'll be okay. Then I can't leave the high all the way over here. I don't have a choice. That'll tip the balance. So to moderate the lows, I have to bring the highs in. And that's also like an amazing pathway of embodied resilience, right? Like what you're also explaining is how to maintain resiliency in both, right? Because that's your mindset for what happens. And so it's really interesting to kind of think of it as highs and lows. Mm-hmm.

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Plus, did you know that you can listen to the episodes as they come out completely ad-free? Don't miss out. Subscribe to the iHeart True Crime Plus channel today. Available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Can you tell me a specific story, something you've done at any point in your career? It doesn't have to be in this current form as a poet. It could have been any time in your life. A specific story, something you've done in your career that you absolutely loved being a part of it.

And if every experience in your life was like this one, you'd be the happiest person alive. When I think back on it, I think probably of my first book tour. I like brought all of my best friends on the tour.

And when I tour, I really like to just be in community role modeling community. And so I talk to them about their life. And it's kind of like this. It's like we don't talk really about one specific thing or it feels just like a conversation that is vulnerable and loving and kind of fun. And so on the book tour, I remember it having this book tour stop that was three of my girlfriends. And we just...

all had this amazing conversation. It really felt that it was almost like we were in our group chat talking, but every person in the audience was just also in it. It was me and it was all other black women who were on the panel and it was mostly black women who were in the audience. I remember being like, wow, I would write books for the rest of my life if it meant that I could

always have them be a vehicle for creating community like this. It was just sitting in a room and everyone's invited to be your friend. And I really feel like I didn't think I would be a writer when I was growing up and I didn't know that I would certainly write poetry in even 2015 or whatever year it was when that was not a real job. But

I did feel in that moment that I was like, oh, it brings me here to this room. And you feel it, you know. I mean, someone even – I was in D.C. three days ago and someone stopped me on the street. Her name was Morgan and she was there and she was like, that freaking tour stop with like Simone and Brittany and Diara. Like I didn't remember saying this, but she said that I'd open the tour by saying like people will tell you not to work with your friends. Right.

And I will tell you, only work with your friends. Work takes up so much of your time. Do it with people you love, where there's also higher stakes for why you want to treat them well, why you want their lives to be amazing. Love them already. You don't have to learn to love everyone you work with. Tell me an early specific happy childhood memory. Something specific that I can relive with you. Okay, so...

When I was a kid, I played sports at this place called Carrollton Boosters. I was like a full-blown little leaker. Like I loved playing sports. I'd go down and you'd have these like hats that were way too big for you and these shirts that you'd be like rolling. And I like, I was obsessed with a league of their own. And so I wanted to be Dottie. So I wanted to be the catcher because it was like all the action.

But what I remember really vividly loving is being in the dugout and doing the cheer with the team. And you'd have these cheers that, like, they would be, like, kind of passed along. So you'd be like, my name is Cleo, and I know what I got. And then, like, everyone would know to be like, I got – and they'd be like, so what you got? And I'd be like, I got a team that's hotter than hot. They'd be like, how hot is hot? And I'd go, bad.

Batman and Superman, uh-huh, uh-huh, can't do it like the Red Hots can, which is like the name of one of my teams. It was the name of the team that year. And then someone else would pick it up and I'd be like, what about you, Toots? And I did have a friend named – everyone called Toots. I actually don't know her real name. And –

And she'd be like, my name is Tootsin. I know what I got. It was like something like the heat and the dirt and the like everyone sitting on the bench watching your team and cheering. It was just so fun. And the parents were all like it's New Orleans. So all the parents are having like the best time ever. It was great. So those two stories to me are the same story.

which is there's an audience, there's witnesses, there's the parents and there's the people who came to see you. You're there with your friends. You're doing things that haven't been done before, right? And what you're doing is leading a chant. You're bringing everybody to celebrate what they got

right? To love it and own it, no matter what it is without comparison. If you're with people, you can do things that are difficult, hot and dirty. Like you're in the heat, you're in the dirt, and yet you're having fun. I know the statistics that people fear public speaking, you know, sometimes more than death, you know? And here you are, you're bringing your friends on a book tour who've never done public speaking before, and you're bringing them on a stage in front of countless others, and they're enduring the heat and the dirt because they're

They're with you and you're leading the chant and they're with each other and it's their safety in those numbers. And I see what you do in your work, which is you're leading a chant as well. If you have that community and you have that safety, it's not an accident that you are drawn to the definition of love and safety. That when you have community and you talk about community a lot, that when you build community, you can endure any dirt or heat that life has to throw at you.

It makes total sense to me. It also makes total sense to me why a friend who's going through tragedy, that your instinct is to get on a plane and go there immediately to offer community to that family so that they can endure the heat and the dirt of whatever they're going through. This is who you are at your natural best. You're leading chants. You're leading cheers. You're leading cheers for all of us, except we're reading your poems. When you post something on Instagram and the number says, I don't know, you know,

100,000 views. It's 100,000 of us chanting with you. You know, it's really funny because a couple of years ago, I was doing a lot and I had really severe burnout. It was really bad. And I didn't even know. I was like, maybe I shouldn't be writing. I don't know if I want to write. And I don't even know. I'd gotten pregnant with Bayou, my second kid. And I was like, I have to pause. I was like,

I'm doing too many projects. I'm trying to do too many things. And I also might, I don't know if I'm doing things I don't really want to do. And I say this to people all the time. I'm like, just because something's in your capacity doesn't mean it's your responsibility or your desire. So you could have this great idea, but it's like, it just might not be in your destiny to do it, even if you could see exactly how to work it out.

Like, and I think so much of becoming great at something is deciding, like, where your energy belongs. Like, and you, but you have to have a relationship with, like, belonging and self-worth to determine that. Because if not, you're constantly hijacked by, like, money ideas, opportunities, and, like, whoever else somebody says you are.

And so I was having that where I was like, I am spread so thin. I was like, I don't think I want to be making these certain things I'm making. I don't think I want to do this. And perhaps I got even hijacked by the kind of like girl boss culture of the movement of that time. And I'm saying this to my friend Shade in the phone and I'm just like, you know, I'm just, and she's like, Cleo, I got to tell you. She was like, since the day I met you, I met her on a dance floor in New York City 15 years ago. She's like the best dancer I've ever seen. And she was like,

everything you try to do for people is like, and yourself, she's like, what you love is like the home you're from. You love New Orleans as a home and you always want to create a sense of home. You make everyone come over. Even when you had that tiny little apartment, if someone was going through a hard time, you'd make them move in with you. Like you want to bring home. And she said, so how could somebody like you build an empire? An empire is the opposite of a home. The energy is completely different. The functionality is completely different. And

And it changed my life in that moment. I was like, wow, I have to return home and keep inviting people in as a guest. And I don't want to like sit there and think of like, you know, I'm building a huge company and I want to just employ everybody. I was like, I actually want people to come on their like free will and be a guest. And like I want to serve them tea. I think your friend is right. You're a maker of families, teams, and friends. That's exactly right. And it's helpful to know that about yourself because –

in our world, I think, especially if you want to build anything, like people will tell you to build a company or an empire every time. And

someone won't tell you that you can actually build the dream of how you want to make your money or spend your time and you can do it in a way that feels like a home and a family. And I think you have to do it the way that suits you. It's everything we're talking about, which is you can compare yourself to somebody else and do it their way or you can do it your way. And your way is to produce small magical things that encourage us to produce small magical things, which encourage us to do small magical things. And that's how it spreads. Yeah.

Cleo, such a treat to meet you. Truly a treat. Thank you so, so much. Thank you for having me. Such a pleasure. So fun. Such a pleasure. If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenic.com for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself. Take care of each other. Bye.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity. Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life in marriage. I just filed for divorce. Whoa.

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