More Thinking About Thinking with Brené Brown and Adam Grant: Part Two
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What you're about to listen to is part two of a two-part series of a conversation I had with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. It will be interesting to listen to, but I recommend you go listen to the first part first because we make all kinds of references to that first part. AI might be the most important new computer technology ever. It's storming every industry and literally billions of dollars are being invested. So buckle up.

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For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is today.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa. I said the words.

that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you enjoy part two of my conversation with Brene Brown and Adam Grant. This is a bit of optimism. People are so shocked.

By their own values. And people want to be, people don't want them. They want to orphan. Give an example of that. Give an example. They want to orphan them. Give an example. I'm learning this value about my worldview. Like I'm okay with it.

Okay. So what we do is we have a list and there's, there's like, I don't know, 150 things on there. We just reverse engineering. So we started, this was the research that started like 15, 18 years ago, where we, we found that some of the most transformational leaders really had two values. They didn't have 20. They had two and they had a lot of things were important to them, but there were really one or two where everything else was forged. And so they circled 15 or 20 and they're like, we're not limiting it. We're not limiting it. And I said, okay,

which two here are essential to you getting out of bed, to you functioning. And this is where they get super irate because they, the majority of them do not want to take family out. And so like my two, my two values are courage and faith. Right. And, and I've really struggled for many years about curiosity as a value. But what I realize is that I'm my bravest when I'm curious and,

And so that curiosity for me requires a lot of courage. And so we do this exercise. So they come up with these two and then they operationalize them into behaviors. Then they have to find indicator warning lights for misalignment from these. When have they stepped out of them? What do they feel in their bodies? When did they live into them? What did they feel in their bodies? And people are just really frustrated because,

Because when you know your values and you understand what – I don't think they mean anything. I feel the same way about corporate values. If they're not operationalized into observable behaviors, they mean they're just bullshit to me. Just writing on the wall. Right. Yeah. And so once they see these values operationalized into behaviors, they go through like a Kubler-Ross grief thing where they're like, wow, okay.

Have I been an asshole because I'm living outside of my values around this issue? Oh, good.

And I'm like, I don't know. What do you think? And they're like, yeah, I'm completely misaligned. Every indicator on the dashboard is going off, but I keep showing up the same way. This is so good. And it goes back to the old thing, like we don't learn anything when things go right. We learn things when things go wrong, right? Oh, for sure. It's like all the metaphors. You can't judge a crew by how the ship performs in calm waters. You can only judge a crew by how a ship performs in rough waters, blah, blah, blah. It's the same thing here, which is things going wrong reveals.

And I love this exercise of going through not when I nailed it, but when I got angry or frustrated. And the anger one is particularly interesting because I'm not a very angry person. But when I get angry, it hurts. When I hear your story about – it reminds me of Stephen Covey. Was this book written like 30 years ago, Seven Habits? I don't even remember. Yeah.

Like the guy who takes up two parking places or the person who's shitty on the train. And I remember that story he tells about being on the train and someone saying, wow, your kids are really out of control here. And the guy kind of looked at the guy who was being critical and said, I'm sorry, we're on the way home from the hospital. My wife died a couple of hours ago. And I think my kids just don't even know how to show up right now. And I,

It just reminds me so much of being in my values when people are not behaving as I need them to behave. I'm just struck, Brené. First,

I thought you were going to tell us a story about people wanting to change their values once they discover they don't like them. And it's quite the opposite, right? That people are discovering their behaviors are not in line with their values. Yes, that's exactly right. That's the variable that moves. And one of the most amazing processes that we use with teams is we have everyone write their name on a big post-it, like one of the 11 by 17 post-its, write their name, write their two values, and

And then everyone on the team fills out a sticky note with a story about when they saw that person living into their values and what it meant for them. And so like everybody in our office has a big sticky note. I mean, I have mine on the side of a file cabinet that has my name, my values and what it looks like from other people when they see me in them. This, you know, this is also speaking to you, which is when people make lists of like what's important to them in relationship.

Like, what are the five values you want in your partner? Like, what are the five, you know, like, make a list of the things you want. And if you make the list, you'll get them and blah, blah, blah, you know? And I've done these exercises. And I'm a professional at failed relationships, by the way. Like, I've taken the advice of people, like, write the 10 things that are non-negotiable in your partner, right? And I've done that. You can't, first of all, I'm not getting all 10. Nobody ever does. But I'm realizing from this exercise that what I need to do is I need to make that list two things.

Like, what are the non-negotiables that if this person doesn't have these two things, then no go? And it speaks directly to the executives that you're dealing with, which is we human beings are gifted with the remarkable ability to rationalize anything. You know? Oh, God, yeah. I can rationalize how much I'm spending because I can tell you how much I'm saving.

My favorite one is people who sell their company. They built good companies. They're like triple bottom line, take care of their people. They have a bazillion dollar exit and they sold it to some awful private equity company who's milking it, destroying it, breaking it and undoing everything. And then I say to these CEOs,

How can you say you wanted to build an impact company if you sold it to them? Why not take less money? Did you need 300 million? Maybe 250 was enough. Like you sold it to that company and they broke it. How can you call yourself an impact CEO? And they can rationalize the shit out of it to make themselves feel better for taking the money. And I think when you get it down to those two things, whether it's who do I sell my company to? Who do I date? You know, how do I lead? Who am I?

I think I find this unbelievably powerful, just two things.

I think that makes so much sense. I mean, I, I think I'd be comfortable with three to five. That is a lot, but there's a, there's a little bit of a paradox in here at minimum. I think they have to be rank ordered so that you can figure out what your priorities are, but the paradox is five and ranked order. Great. Do, do 10, do five. It doesn't matter. It's only one and two that matter. Well, okay. So let's, let's say you have your rank order list of two or three or five or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The question is, what happens when you have to assess those relationships specific? So we've all met narcissists who are great to their distant interactions, their acquaintances, but then horrible to the people who are close to them.

Um, and we also know people who might show up as kind in relationships with us, but treat others really poorly. Yeah. Like do, do they have to embody your values in all relationships or is it enough for them to be that way with you? No. Yeah, no, I don't. I don't see it that way. Yeah. I don't see it that way because I want to know their character.

Yeah. Me too. Yeah. I think there's a- I want to know, because we've all experienced it. We've all been treated nicely because we're the keynote speaker or the blah, blah, blah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? And then you see the way they treat their staff. I don't want to hear that. Right? What did Dave Barry say? Did you notice that? Did you notice that? I remember who said it. Keep going. Credit is due. Like Dave Barry said, nice people who aren't nice to the waiter aren't nice people. Yeah.

Oh, God. Yeah. It's the first thing I taught my kids about dating. If you see someone mistreat, mistreat someone in the service industry, run for your life. So to me, the consistent application of values or the consistent application

values alignment is character. Yes, I agree with that. I think where it gets more, the hierarchical part of that is easy, right? If they're treating people differently based on status or power, like no thanks. I think where it gets more complicated is when it starts to, I guess, spill into in-group, out-group dynamics. Are they kinder to people that they feel more comfortable with? Or, you know, who have something in common with them? And then do we have to care about how they treat people that,

they might not have any kind of connection with. That's where I struggle more. I've been dealing with this recently. And whether this is right or wrong, this is where I'm at, which is I actually adjust my standard with someone's age. So somebody who's in their 20s, and when we were younger, we all said stupid things to fit in

you know, made it puffed ourselves up were unnecessarily mean about somebody who wasn't there. We've all done it because we wanted to fit in and feel included. Right. By your thirties, like you should be learning some of that stuff, but maybe some of those insecurities creep back in. Forties, you're entitled to like a mistake or two, but when you start getting older, you should be aware enough that if you're feeling insecure, just shut up.

Right. Like and I now hold older people to a higher standard because they've had enough life experience that they should know better. Younger people, I show a little more grace. So this this gets really complicated in the let's let's take a specific example. Your kids are friends with somebody who's great to them, but maybe not to other kids. No. Do you tolerate that? No. No.

And I don't have an age ranking. I have a full application, all times, all groups, all people, all the time. It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior. It doesn't mean I excuse the behavior, but I allow for the fact that there's a learning curve happening. I mean, I do too. For example, the kids, the kids who are nice to your kids but not nice to other kids, you'd find a way to have that conversation, to teach the kids. That's the grace you're offering.

Right. And I think the thing is that like, okay, let's take this wider. I'm not having a conversation with a 50-year-old like you should know better, you know? And I think...

I would never want to be dismissed by someone I'm in a relationship with, a colleague, a partner, a child, a friend, because I have operated or behaved outside of my values. And so it's not like one step outside your values and you're dead to me because I'm outside my values. I mean, I struggle with it every day sometimes. But I think if I've got a child and they've got a friend who's very kind to them, but is unkind to other people,

that's going to be problematic. And we're going to talk about the ramifications of that. And we're going to talk about what that means, how that makes them feel, what happens when they observe that and not saying anything is outside of their own values. And so I think it's, I don't think values are situational. I think the expression of behaviors are situational. Oh, very good. Good distinction. Very well put. Very well put.

And I'll tell you one thing, Adam, that I think about a lot too to your question. And this is like a hard thing, but very early on, I started thinking about compliance versus commitment with my kids. So my youngest is just graduated from high school. He's off to college. My daughter is 25, getting her PhD. They're spreading their wings. In the early days of parenting, it's all about compliance, right?

You don't go in the street because I said you don't go in the street. You don't watch, you don't play these violent video games. But at some point, if there's not deep discussions about values and friends and things, when it's time for compliance to turn into commitment because you're not controlling that, you will really struggle. And I think the same is true. I hate to use parenting because in work it infantilizes some, but I think the same is true when you're building a team.

If you have to have a team operating within a set of values as compliance, you're just dead. Which is ironic that there's entire departments in certain companies called compliance, right? Right. I mean, as opposed to ethics. Yeah. Right. They don't have ethical departments. They have compliance departments. But I think this is a great distinction about the values versus the behavior because the behaviors are excusable.

And we all step outside our values. And I guess what I'm getting at is the character where the people who perhaps I show a little less grace to, not that I humiliate or shame, I don't. You just sort of take note in your mind. It's not a behavior that I'm reacting to. It's a clue about character. And I say clue because one example is not enough. I agree. Yeah. We'll be right back.

For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is today.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words.

that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Get emotional with me, Radhi Devlukia, in my new podcast, A Really Good Cry. We're going to talk about and go through all the things that are sometimes difficult to process alone. We're going to go over how to regulate your emotions, diving deep into holistic personal development, and just building your mindset to have a happier, healthier life. We're going to be talking with some of my best friends. I didn't know we were going to go there on this. I didn't know they were going to do this.

People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh great, you said you're

Have either of you ever read the Samuel and Pearl O'Lenor study of Holocaust rescuers and bystanders? No.

Amazing project by sociologists. Basically, they got a big sample, hundreds of Christians who rescued Jews during the Holocaust and compared them to their own neighbors who did nothing. And they wanted to know what made these people into humans of such extraordinary character that they were willing to risk their lives for somebody who didn't share their fundamental beliefs. Yeah.

And there were a lot of interesting findings in the study, but one that has always stuck with me was the rescuers compared to the bystanders were less likely to be punished with consequences and more likely to be punished with explanations. And I think this goes to the heart of, Brene, your distinction between compliance and commitment. As kids. Yeah, let me explain a little more clearly. So growing up, the people who went on to become rescuers, when they did something wrong,

Their parents didn't punish them. They explained to them why the behavior was wrong. So then instead of just learning to comply with what authority figures did, they actually internalized a set of values and principles that they carried with them. Oh, you just gave me proof. Yeah, me too. That's compliance versus commitment. In a nutshell. Wow. And this is now nature versus nurture too, which is, oh, and I remember a study that I read that I couldn't tell you who did it.

That'll tell us. Thank you. I was studying, when I was writing Leaders Eat Last, I was, I became very interested in, I read a whole bunch of parenting stuff. And one of the things I remember reading is that, I think they talked about values, but our values don't come from our parents.

You know, there's so many influences in our lives and like two kids who are brought up the same way. You know, one goes one way, one goes the other. And apparently across cultures universally, there's only two things everyone always gets from their parents, which is how you treat yourself and how you treat others. That's interesting. And Adam, this would speak to that, which is when you make a bad choice and you get an explanation, right?

That you're learning to treat others in a certain way and yourself. And yourself of that versus getting punished. You're going to treat yourself or others in a different way. So good. This goes to leadership 101 as well. Let me tell you why we don't do that around here, you know, and why the decision you made. I want to explain to you what's important about that decision. Like why we don't do it that way.

So good. It's so good. And I would imagine, I mean, I don't know if they got to this, Adam, did they? I would imagine when it was consequence versus punishment, I would imagine this is so interesting. I would imagine that consequence would be a lot of lessons in empathy about how someone's actions affected other people.

Exactly. Where punishment is more shame driven. Yes. I mean, literally, I think they were doing your research. Yeah, the parents explained the consequences. Like, here's why, you know, stealing your sibling's toy hurts them. Yeah. Imagine how you would feel if someone stole your toy. This is so good. Instead of shame, they get guilt. Yeah.

I did a bad thing and I need to now prevent it moving forward. What is the one emotion or affect that shame corrodes? Empathy. Shame corrodes empathy. Empathy cannot survive shame. And shame is so self-focused. And shame, you start to believe you're the only person in the world. Yes. Right? Because it's about preventing me from getting in trouble.

which is a very selfish disposition versus recognizing that I live in the world and my words and my actions have impact in the lives of others. Yeah, self-focused versus other-focused, yeah. The self versus the other focus. But I think it works the other way as well, which is it's not just punishment, it's also the reward. And you look at a corporate environment. Look at Boeing. Oh, God. Let's just look at Boeing for five minutes. What a clusterfuck that is, right? Yeah.

and incentivized to move fast and hit numbers, punished for slowing down the system. But it's not just the punishment, it's also the incentive, right? We're incentivizing the wrong behaviors and we're disincentivizing the pro-social behaviors. And it all goes back to selfish versus selfless, which is, do you live in the world by yourself or do you live in the world with others? And I'm going to parent you

To recognize that you are one of many versus parenting you that you are just one. You follow the rules because it's just you that needs to follow the rules. And what that leads you to is taking actions to protect your reputation as opposed to improve your character. Yes. Or improve your behavior. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's so interesting, too, because y'all talked about narcissism. And that's why, like, I think, I don't remember what book it was in. Was it Atlas of the Heart? I think it was Dare to Lead. I said, I think this is my own definition of narcissism. That was written by Brene Brown. That one I know. Thank you. This is all that matters, Simon. Just get mine right. But I think it was in Dare to Lead that I said, to me, narcissism is the shame-based fear of being ordinary. Right.

And it's so funny because people think that narcissists are, you know, have these huge egos and it's about grandiosity. But I do know not from my research, but from other people's research that there's no kind of continuum on the personality disorder continuum. That's more shame fueled than narcissism. Yeah. People are so afraid of being ordinary. I do. I do think that,

There's something very shame-based, very self-focused, very just, right?

scared to death on the inside of that. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how, so I think about narcissism much less, you know, in terms of the personality disorder and much more in terms of normal personality. We all know some people who are more narcissistic than others. A set of collection of behaviors. Yeah, exactly. Like a tendency to have an inflated ego and be entitled. And I think,

This makes me wonder, like, is this part of the difference between grandiose and vulnerable narcissism? Those two flavors that often come out where the grandiose is the larger than life, I'm more important than everyone else. And the vulnerable is the, like, I'm afraid of, you know, of any criticism. I wonder if these are different strategies for managing shame.

That the grandiose narcissists build themselves up and the vulnerable narcissists retreat. Oh, 100%. And by the way, this is what I think one of the things that makes human beings so fascinating. You know, I'll make it a more base example that just reminds me of college, right? Which is somebody who's very, very social, excessively social.

Could be because they're so insecure, they have to be really, really social, or they're so secure, they can be really, really social. Or somebody who never goes out. They stay at home the whole time. It's because they're so insecure, they can't go out, or they're so secure, they don't want to go out. And I love the fact that the behaviors can be the same. Opposite motivations. Fascinating. And for me, part of the fascination of the anthropologist in me

has always been to try to find the subtleties and nuances that I can spot the difference because they exist. Well, we had this over the weekend. Simon, you actually displayed this in Stockholm. Brene, I was noticing two conferences in a row. Simon is the first person to leave the party to go to bed.

And at first I was like, Simon, are you more, I thought I was more introverted than you are. You know, are you just getting overwhelmed early? Are you sleep obsessed? And then at some point it hit me, you're secure enough that you're not staying around out of FOMO. I, there, there's,

A lot of people with loud noise is about the worst thing in the world. Oh, God. But it's not... I feel that way too, but it's not just that. You also have the confidence to walk away and say, look, you know, I don't need to stick around in the hopes that I'll make a connection in the next hour. Yeah, that's true. That's true of you. I've been around you. That's true of you. I mean... Yeah. I, you know...

It's kind of a life philosophy. No, no, no. It's sort of a life philosophy, which is things will come my way because I'll randomly find myself in places and I will miss things because I didn't show up. And I have to be okay with both. Yeah. And because I understand that if I try and be everywhere, it actually won't actually necessarily dramatically increase the odds of me getting more. And so I'm just okay that...

You know, it's kind of like we always say, we say this with our friends all the time, like, you know, let me buy dinner. No, no, let me buy it. Don't worry, it'll even out in the wash. Right? Like over the course of time, it's like if I flip a coin a hundred times, it's going to be 50-50. Right? And so my attitude is like in a vacuum, yeah, it's probably lopsided. But over the course of my life, it'll even out. You know, when some lose some. So I, yeah, I've never met a party I couldn't leave too early. God, same. Yeah.

Adam, so I, as an introvert, if you're fine, because if you're actually uncomfortable with the crowd and the noise, what is the motivation that you choose to stay? Well, I really like people. So you're not an introvert as much. No, I am. I just at some point get overstimulated by the noise and interaction. But

I don't like people. We know. We know. Secret is out. Simon, well, I'm going to talk about you in the third person. Brene, I think Simon does like people less than you and I do. I'd be shocked if he liked people less than me. I'm just going to be real. Humanity, I love. People in general. I like persons. I like persons.

I mean, let me just say this. Y'all – the difference between me and y'all is I will not even be at the party. Like contractually, there is – and every contract I sign, there is no dinner. There is no meet and greet. Same. There is nothing. Wait, wait, wait. Same. No, no, no. Do y'all go to those? No. By the way – No. No, what we're talking about – I've never been to an after party because I don't understand the point of them.

I went to the damn party. Why do I have to go to the party after the party? I will see your party avoidance and raise you. By the time I was a senior in college, I convinced my roommates that we should have board game gatherings, which were called people overs, because I didn't want to have to leave our room or go to a party.

I was in college and my suite mates would throw parties. And the rule was every suite mate had to contribute money to pay for the party, you know, 50 bucks each or whatever. I would pay my 50 bucks and then go out. I didn't go to the parties that I paid for. This is why y'all are my people. I mean, this is really why you're my people. I mean, I just, yeah, for me, it's very, very, very difficult. We'll be right back.

For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Meet the real woman behind the tabloid headlines in a personal podcast that delves into the life of the notorious Tori Spelling as she takes us through the ups and downs of her sometimes glamorous, sometimes chaotic life and marriage. I don't think he knew how big it would be, how big the life I was given and live is.

I think he was like, oh, yeah, things come and go. But with me, it never came and went. Is she Donna Martin or a down-and-out divorcee? Is she living in Beverly Hills or a trailer park? In a town where the lines are blurred, Tori is finally going to clear the air in the podcast Misspelling. When a woman has nothing to lose, she has everything to gain. I just filed for divorce. Whoa, I said the words.

that I've said like in my head for like 16 years. Wild. Listen to Misspelling on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I didn't know we were going to go there on this.

People that I admire. When we say listen to your body, really tune in to what's going on. Authors of books that have changed my life. Now you're talking about sympathy, which is different than empathy, right? And basically have conversations that can help us get through this crazy thing we call life. I already believe in myself. I already see myself. And so when people give me an opportunity, I'm just like, oh great, you see me.

Me too. We'll laugh together, we'll cry together and find a way through all of our emotions. Never forget, it's okay to cry as long as you make it a really good one. Listen to A Really Good Cry with Raleigh Dablukia on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I wanted to go back to one thought because I wrote it down. I just wanted to say something that may be controversial, but I think it's an important thing to add. And it goes back to looking for motivation, right?

and it goes back to the grandiose narcissism and the vulnerable narcissism, I would argue that no matter the behavior, self-focusedness, someone who's super self-focused will be, no matter how it's expressed, is equally painful to other people. I think it's very dangerous to buy into the idea that

that a grandiose behaving person that has narcissistic tendencies is going to be more hurtful than someone who has those tendencies and is vulnerable. It just shows up different. But in the end, when you're self-focused, there's going to be some empathic fails that are going to be hurtful to somebody. Yes, and we also have to consider the audience.

Right. Which is, I agree with you that there is impact from both behaviors, but some people are more resilient to one of those behaviors and some are more resilient to the other kind of behavior. I don't agree. So like I, like if somebody is grandiose, I may say, meh, whatever. They're just grandstanding and I'm not hurt or affected. But if somebody's despondent,

it's like my own insecurities, like, oh my God, did I say something wrong? So where somebody else might be the opposite. And it goes back to what we're saying before, which is the motivations and behaviors may be different. So how I respond may look the same, but be differently motivated. Yes, I think. If the whole point we're making is that we live in the world, we can't just consider the person who's behaving. We also have to consider the person on the receiving end of the behavior. I think you're right. I think when I see grandiosity, I mean, like,

Trump is a great example, in my opinion. Are we allowed to say that? I keep it apolitical, but it's an example of grandiosity. It's fine. Yeah. You can see that coming. And some people find it offensive and some people find it seductive. Right. And it doesn't make one more right than the other. No, but I think when the behavior outwardly, I don't know, I just find in leadership, with leaders I've worked with,

That vulnerable, quiet self-focus can be absolutely brutal on direct reports. Agreed. Because no one sees it, but it's there. To your point, because it's not grandiose, it's more silent. It's a poison, you know, more than anything. You didn't realize you were drinking it.

until later. But I still think that we may be less practiced at dealing with it because it's harder to see. I think that's true. I think that's true. Yeah. But I will say, I'll do another sort of yes and, which is when it comes to leadership, I don't want any narcissism. I agree with you, Brene. This is an overused word, but any kind of self-absorption is toxic.

If I had to choose, I would rather coach the grandiose narcissist than the vulnerable one. You don't get Steve Jobs founding Apple from vulnerable narcissism. It's grandiose. And I think there's a great... Rubenzer and Faschingbauer, study of presidential personality.

showing that grandiose studies. I can't even remember the names. It's in the job description. Why can't scientists be named like Smith, Johnson? That would be helpful. Anyway, let me, let me get to the substance, which is when they looked at presidential personality ratings from historians and political scientists and then predicted greatness as, as rated by experts.

um they found that um there were that basically that vulnerable narcissists didn't succeed and that grandiose narcissism was a double-edged sword that you know sometimes it led to extraordinary public persuasiveness and other times you know it led to overconfidence um churchill yeah both exactly depending on what period of time you look at uh but but what's so interesting to me is um

There's another researcher, Brad Owens, who has studied what he calls humble narcissism. And I don't like the term, but he finds that narcissism and humility can coexist. That you can have the grandiose belief, I'm capable of doing great things, and also the humility to know your weaknesses and

I think that so much of what I've tried to do with leaders historically is I've tried to dial down their grandiose narcissism. And what I actually need to do is raise up their humility. I don't want to convince Steve Jobs that he lacks vision. I want to convince him that he's terrible at interacting with other people. But first, let's define humility. Right. And my favorite definition of humility is.

It's from Bob Gaylor, who is the fifth chief master sergeant of the Air Force. And he said, don't confuse humility with meekness. Humility is being open to the ideas of others. And since I've embraced that definition, I have no problem with people with huge egos and all these people in big power. They have to have big egos. You couldn't get there without it. You have to believe you're good enough. Right. But the ones that I find impressive are the ones that say, hey, I have an idea. And they go, let's hear it.

And those are the ones that I and so if you're talking about a humble narcissist, it's not that they're necessarily aware of their weaknesses. I think they have plenty of blind spots and all of that stuff. It's that they reckon and it goes it goes back to this, this theme that keeps coming up, which is they live in the world, they recognize that there are other people, that their behaviors impact other people that other people are included in all the decisions they make, and that they will benefit from the ideas of other people. And they will actually, you know, look better if they're open to the ideas of others.

So I think that gets us part of the way there. I want to go further, though, and say that the right combination of humility and confidence is being secure enough in your strengths to see your weaknesses. And I think it's at its core, recognizing your own limitations and shortcomings that makes you the most open to other people's ideas. So and I think you and I have talked about this. I can't remember, which is I actually don't believe in strengths and weaknesses. I believe in characteristics and attributes.

I have certain characteristics and attributes and in certain contexts, those things display as weaknesses and in certain contexts, those things display as strengths. And so the trick is not to work on my weaknesses and build on my strengths. It's to put myself in situations where my characteristics are more likely to reveal themselves as strengths and put other people in the other situations where they will thrive and do great because I will not.

Simon is demonstrating metacognition right now. I was going to say, I'm going to take this to the very full circle from where we started. Renee, why don't you wrap it up for us? Well, I'm going to take it back to the beginning, and I'm going to say I actually believe that humility is a function of metacognition. I do, and I think it's actually humility is a property of confidence. I don't think you can be a confident person without some humility. So I don't know what the temporal relationship is, but I actually think humility

There is a level of metacognition that's required for humility, which takes us very back to the very beginning of Simon's first, like when we first got on about self-awareness. I think if you can't think about how you're thinking, it's hard. I think we're making the standard too high that you have to be able to think about what you're thinking about, right? And I think that's... No. I would be okay with...

I would be okay with that you just know that you're not the only person in the world. And it goes back to that parenting thing, that you will have humility. It goes back to the high-performing teams, you know, the ones that have care for each other, right? That if you just can recognize that there are other people in the world and everything you say and everything you do will impact those people in the world positively or negatively, you will have humility.

I agree with that. I think you'll need metacognition for that. Phineas, Adam, what do you think? Are you on voting for metacognition or voting against? I'm with Pranay on this one, Simon. I think that maybe thinking about thinking, I think it's great shorthand for metacognition, but maybe a different way to say it is you need to have the wisdom to exercise judgment about your own judgment. Yes. I just think you need to recognize that there's other people in the world.

And I think in order to do that, you really have to have judgment. Let's just ignore that there's a Simon and carry on with this podcast. Okay. And then the episodes end suddenly. By the way, you seem really exhausted. You have no energy right now.

You should think about that. You do realize how screwed the two of you are. You realize how screwed the two of you are because the next time I'm exhausted and I got to show up, I'm going to be like, can you just hold on? I have just to call Adam and Brene for an hour and a half and then I'll be on time. I'm down for it. Okay, bye guys. Bye. See you later.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenik.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jha and Greg Reutershan, and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer.

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