Leadership with Bob Chapman
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I imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do.

Now I know this is an ideal, and I'm often accused of being a crazy idealist. And sometimes I think that of myself. Until I met Bob Chapman. He has a company, Barry Waymiller, that actually does the things that I talk about. He's built a remarkable culture. And so I can no longer be accused of being a crazy idealist if what I imagine exists in reality.

I've known Bob for a bunch of years and he's become a close friend. And so it was really exciting for me to call him up and hear what he has to say about leadership and what it takes to build a great company. This is a bit of optimism. Bob Chapman, I can't tell you what an absolute joy it is for me to sit down and talk to you. You and I met 10 years ago. I received a letter from you that you were telling me that you'd saw my TED Talk and that you'd built a company that looks like what I was talking about. So I said, let's meet for lunch.

And we met for lunch for an hour. And we got along so well that we both cleared our calendars for the rest of the afternoon. And here we are 10 years later. Yeah, I think we both walked in with no expectations. You just tolerated meeting with me because you were very busy. And I just went because intellectually it seemed kind of interesting. I had no expectation. That's what it was. And you said, I hear you. I love it. But I honestly don't believe it. You didn't believe what I said to you.

And remember, Simon, you were the first external person that ever came in to look at our culture. So you opened the door of our culture to the world. And I remember we went around the country and you said, go ahead and walk around and talk to anybody you want and ask them any question you like.

and you didn't go with me. And what I saw, I was blown away. I saw this corporate culture where people cared about each other. There was love in the air, and I heard the stories of how they were treated at work and how they took care of each other. It was just mind-blowing. The thing that I love about your company, Barry Waymiller, is you're a manufacturing company, good old-fashioned American manufacturing company.

You make large machines, the kinds of machines like when Kimberly Clark, for example, needs a big machine to make toilet paper, your company makes that machine and then sells it to industry. And so it's not a traditionally glamorous business. People think that great cultures exist in Silicon Valley where you have organic cafeterias and flat screen TVs everywhere. And when I ask you, what do you do? You say, we build great people to do extraordinary things.

And it's your culture that you've committed to building, which then produces great product, great customer service, great everything else. But I love how you're so focused on your people. It's so special. And it's proof that you don't need a glamorous industry and you don't need big advertising and all this crazy stuff to build a remarkable place to go to work. Right. And the thing that I saw when I came to Philips and Green Bay was I saw perhaps the best example

of the workplace that I imagined. - Remember, that was the outcome, but that wasn't our intent. Our intent originally, awakened by the experiences I had, was we wanted to send people home feeling valued, fulfilled. We used the word fulfilled. I didn't realize though, when we set that goal of sending people home fulfilled, that they would in turn treat those around them the way they were being treated. So we found that caring is contagious.

And so you saw something we didn't see. And our intent was not to create that. It was just to send people home feeling cared for so they could be good stewards at home. And again, astounding to me was we realized in this journey, after you opened the door to this, the way we treat people at work profoundly affects the way they go home and treat people in their span of care. So if we're sending 88% of the people in this world home not feeling valued,

What is a family unit like of children raised with parents who feel they work in an organization that doesn't care about them? So again, when we teach people how to be leaders, 95% of the feedback is how our leadership model affects their family. It's so true. When Washington University organizational development professors came out to interview me a few years back, and they sat down because they'd heard about our culture, and we talked for probably an hour and a half.

At the end, these professors looked at me and said, you know, you're the first CEO I've ever talked to that never talked about their product in the entire interview. I said, we've been talking about our product for the last hour and a half. Our product is our people, okay? We build great people. And I said, that is the key. We live in a society, you know, where we have TGIF. Thank God it's Friday. I

I imagine a society where we have TGIM. Thank goodness it's Monday. We get back in a place where I feel valued. I get to contribute my gifts. I get to play the game of business with people. Again, number one source of happiness in the world is meaningful work in a company that you feel respected in. So we have discovered with your help that business could be the most powerful force of good in the world.

if they simply had the skill and the courage to care for the people they have the privilege of leading. That could be a powerful force of healing in this country. And I think such a powerful statement for some of the things that we're seeing happening in the world today. Right. The thing I wanted to talk to you about was loyalty. You know, I have deep loyalty to you. This is a very close 10-year relationship we've had. I consider you a close friend and mentor.

But loyalty is, it seems to be, you know, we don't see much loyalty these days in the workplace. You know, people aren't loyal to their companies like they used to. The companies are definitely not loyal to their people. There seems to be this decline of loyalty. First of all, is that a problem? Is loyalty important? I wouldn't use the word loyalty, Simon. I would use the word loyalty.

Trust and respect, because you have what's called the circle of safety that you talk about that I learned. People used to feel safe in that circle. And people, as you have said, don't feel safe at work.

They feel used for an economic goal, not human goal. Since the Industrial Revolution, business thought its sole purpose was to create economic value through mass production, new technology, etc. And we had decades of that, but we never learned to do it for the right reason, which is human dignity.

You know, Simon, I learned something in the last six months. A gentleman in Wisconsin who's a football coach read my book, wrote to me to meet with him. His name is Steve Jones. The winningest football coach in the history of Wisconsin. Won 72 games in a row, five out of 16 championships. They wanted to talk. And in the course, I said to him, how do you define winning in sports with your team? He said, we don't define winning. We talk about playing your position best for your colleagues.

Go out and play your position well and let the outcome be the outcome. They never talk about winning. We actually had this coach, Steve Jones, do a video of him talking to his kids about how he defines playing your position well for your colleagues. And we use that in our leadership meeting because rather than just saying, you know, to make your bonus, to make your

your goal, you all need to do this. We try to bring that same sense. We're doing it for each other, not just for me. You're not doing it for your own career, playing your position well as quarterback or end. You're doing it for your colleagues. You're playing your position well for the benefit of the whole organization. And when we look at companies, if we look at just the self-interest, be a good accountant, be a good salesperson, you'll have a good career, you'll make good money.

It's much more inspiring to go do it for everybody else. So part of this COVID-19 shutdown, we say to every team member who's at home, remember, your position is not just yours. Your role is in the interest of everybody else. If we all play our position well, we will get through this together. So that was a big learning because I don't like winners and losers in sports. I remember using your skill or helping a school try and incorporate their why into athletics.

And a coach came up to me and I said, well, how was your season? She said, oh, we lost in the semifinals. I said, I'm just curious. Why did you define your season as you lost in the semifinals? Why?

Why wouldn't you have said we had an incredible team and we made it all the way to the semifinals? Because in society, we have winners and losers. We're divided by issues, not united by purpose. And so remember, Simon, that statement that's on our wall in our building that says we imagine a society. These are your words. We imagine a society where people think of others first. I lament the fact and often say that

If you go to the bookshop, there's an entire section called self-help, but there's no section called help others. Yeah, right. Because, you know, it requires work. These things, you know, even though it's innate in all of us, selfishness is innate in all of us, but so is selflessness innate in all of us. And we can practice these skills. It's like anything else. It's like a muscle. You build it. The thing that I find fascinating also is you weren't always like this. This has been your own personal journey as well.

And so I think a lot of people think that people either are this way or are not this way. But you're such a great example of any leader can change, which is what makes me optimistic, which is everyone can change the way they lead to create this world in which everyone matters.

Was there one event that was a catalyst or was it like a slow, steady thing that your conversion happened? 1997 was the first event when I had bought this company and I watched people playing the game March Madness in the cafeteria. And they were having fun talking about which team won, whether they won $5 or $10 in the pool. They're having fun. And the closer they got to 8 o'clock, you could just see the fun go out of your body. Now, I didn't realize it at the time, but what was going on inside of my mind, my heart, was...

why can't business be fun? Why do we call it work? Where do people express their gifts? So I started creating these games, as you know, which was the very beginning. That was the first step

I created games where when people won, the company won and they won. So I aligned value creation to fun. And we saw profound changes in performance, which was not my goal. My goal was just so they have fun. But we saw this profound change in performance. That was the first thing. So I said, why can't business be fun? Then I realized that the church service, that the faith, which tries to create people of meaning and purpose, we only have people in a religion normally for one hour a week at

at most. And we have people in business for 40 hours a week. We are 40 times more powerful to impact people's lives than our faiths. And so I realized that business could be the most powerful force for good. And then the culmination was where I realized that our

All 12,000 people that work for us around the world were not engineers, architects, machinists, assemblers, shipping clerks. They were somebody's precious child that had been placed in our care. And that's when I brought my skills that you talk about all the time, how parenting and leadership is identical. I realized that when you look at people, not as they function for your success, I need that engineer to design a machine. I need that accountant to keep financial orders.

But when you reverse it and you say, that life has been placed in my care and the way I treat that person is gonna profoundly affect their health,

And the way they go home and treat their family members, I was profoundly changed. And the expression, as you know, that I'm most known for is everybody is somebody's precious child. And that was the culmination of those three experiences. You and I believe that leadership is just like parenting, where people say this all the time. I didn't get to choose my team. Well, you didn't get to choose your children. You still love them. What in your experience, what have you personally changed?

in the way you used to lead versus the way you lead now when you started to see all of your employees as someone's precious child? Well, first of all, you have to go back to Cynthia and I have six kids. And back in the 70s with six kids in my care, I...

didn't know how to be a good parent. And so we took classes on parenting and we started, you know, through Young Presidents Organization, others, to how can I be a good steward of these precious lives that have been blessed upon us? And through the 70s and 80s, as I continued learning about parenting and I was embracing leadership, all of a sudden one day I realized that

Parenting and leadership is identical. What's parenting? The stewardship of those precious lives that come into our lives through birth, adoption, or second marriage that we all take very seriously. What is leadership? The

The stewardship of those precious lives of people that walk in our building all over the world, simply wanting to know that who they are and what they do matters, which is the same as parenting. So then we started getting ideas like, we know, Simon, if you don't compliment a child five times more than you might suggest things they do better, that you are going to have an oppressed child. You are going to be hurting that child.

Because they're not going to be able to receive the constructive advice if they don't feel valued. So that was the first thing, recognition and celebration, catching people doing things right.

All those are attributes. Everything in our leadership model comes from parenting because it's identical. What do you want for your kids? You want them to be who they're intended to be and feeling good about whatever that is. What do you want for your 12,000 people? You want them to be who they're intended to be and feeling good about that so they can go home and be good stewards of kids. Remember, Simon, we have a society that is based upon money, monetary value.

And so we create an education system that gives you technical skills so you can get a good job, get out of high school with a good grade, get into the right college with good grades so you can get a good job. It's all about the end result, a good job with good pay. Isn't that what you want for your kids?

And what we know for a fact is we don't give them human skills. We give them technical skills because the market wants it. So our education system has become a skills factory, not a human factory where we prepare people to live lives of meaning and purpose. So until our schools...

start embracing the responsibility for human skills like empathetic listening, recognition and celebration, seeing people for their beauty. Until our schools embrace the whole child, not just the mind of the child, but the whole child, you and I are going to have a full career trying to help people

find the true north, the way that we are called to lead. Right before the pandemic, we had the lowest employment in 50 years. We were at peace in the world. People could change jobs, make good money, and we had an epidemic of anguish. This university president, Harvard, et cetera, told me that incoming students to our universities have the highest level of depression and anxiety ever, and they don't know what to do about it. Why? We have full employment. We have economic gains. We're at peace.

Because people don't feel valued. They feel used for somebody else's success. I have conversations with leaders about this, that they criticize this young generation when they start work, that they're not loyal, they're not engaged, they'll leave in six months or a year, and we don't want to invest too much in them because they don't stick around. And I try and explain that during the 80s and 90s, we saw this rise of

of selfishness, this rise of finite thinking where planning became shorter and shorter term, goals became shorter and shorter term. We started to use people's livelihoods to balance the books that even though we were profitable, we weren't profitable enough. So we just had a bunch of layoffs so we could meet our arbitrary projections that all of these things started to really take hold and become the normal way of doing business in the 80s and 90s and definitely were solidified in the 2000s.

And so this young generation that was born in those years watched their parents lose their jobs through no fault of their own, that it wasn't a meritocracy. Their parents worked hard and cared about the company. Nothing that they did, the company missed their arbitrary projections, their parents were laid off. And this is what they saw. They saw companies giving their parents no care and no loyalty. And so they grew up being very, very cynical of leadership in business. Rightfully so, I would add.

And so if leaders want their young people to be loyal and stick around and care about the company and be engaged, not just be looking for the next job, well, then to your point, show them a little love, show them a little care, let them know that they matter and they'll stay for a long time. Companies like yours don't have a problem with young people leaving in six months or a year. People who join your organization want to stay.

regardless of their age. - Remember, I said to a dean of a major business school, I said, "What is your vision for the two years you have these men and women in your care in an MBA program?" He said, "We don't have visions, we have beliefs that are on the wall." And I said, "Well, if you don't have a vision, how do you know what to teach?" And he said, "We teach what the market wants." I said to the dean, I said, "You know, you're just like me, you're in the manufacturing business. You get raw material, the best raw material you can, which is young men and women, you process them through a system,

And then you sell them to the market. And if you get a good price for these kids, you must be doing a good job. So we are clearly self-destructing as a society in chasing of economic value, which we assume is happiness. And beyond a level of substance, there's no relationship between money and happiness. So, okay. So Professor Chapman. Yes. In the universities and MBA programs, they're teaching the wrong skills. And you assert that one of the reasons that leaders or people in leadership positions

come in and lead this way, manage this way, is because that's what they're taught. That's all they know. Can you share a specific example? Let's teach a new skill here. Like, share with me something that you do in your company that is the opposite and can have even a more powerful effect in the business. The single most important thing we have learned is...

in our company is we need to teach people to listen to each other, which is the key to caring. I always thought when you cared for somebody, you went over and talked to them. It turns out when you care for somebody, you go over to listen to them with empathy, which is a teachable skill. And when we teach that in our business, it profoundly changes people's relationship when they feel valued. And the key is

is to listen and to recognize good behavior. So I would say to you that our universities do not teach this. Our schools do not teach this. And when you ask them, they say we teach debate class. We teach speech class, critical thinking. They teach talking. Exactly. Right. Because that's what we value. Remember Bill Ury's

Bill Ury, is William Ury the author of Getting to Yes? Yeah, the Harvard professor. Bill Ury said, what if we had a world where a highly valued attribute of anybody is to be a good listener? Not a good talker, not a good talker, but a good listener. What if our schools started giving young kids basic skills to go through life when they graduated, they are prepared,

to care because we have a society built upon individual success, not collective success. So Bob, how do you teach listening? So do you have listening classes in your company? We now teach it around the world in four or five different languages. Is it mandatory or voluntary? It is voluntary, but we have people lined up to take the class all over the world. And again, when we teach people to listen at work to be better leaders,

They don't tell us I ran a better accounting department, a better sales department. They say to us, my marriage has never been better and my teenage daughters are talking to me. So what does it take to be a better listener? It's a skill. Right. So what are some of the specific things that are taught in the class on how I can become a better listener? One is to be fully present.

because usually you're thinking about your answer and what you're going to respond instead of listening. So it's a skill to learn, to be fully present, to actually listen to what the person is trying to say. That is a skill. And the second is confrontation, because a lot of people are hurting other people, but they don't know it. And people are reluctant to say, the way you're treating me is hurting me. And so we teach effective confrontation, which

which allows people to say, I need you to help me, Simon. And so you're asking help instead of criticizing. So I would say to you, those are the two things, being fully present. I mean, fully present doesn't mean sitting there. It means in body language and words that you can draw out and people feel that you're listening to them, not judging them.

not asking for an answer. And the second thing is clearly equally important. How do you let people know that they could help you in something that is hurting you? And that's called confrontation skills. Those are the two biggest feedbacks we get. You let me take your class and it was very powerful. And here's what I learned when I left the class. I learned that I am a really, really good listener.

to people who I will never see again for the rest of my life, who I meet once. And with the people who I care about and love, who are close to me and I see and talk to all the time, abominable. And it has profoundly changed the quality of my relationships, I have to tell you, that class. Well, remember Bill Ury, who is a world peace negotiator for Harvard. He flew up and took a walk with me up in Aspen after he learned of this class because he then gave a TEDx talk out in California

aren't listening. What Bill Ury said in this time we had together, that he realizes as a world peace negotiator, he's been involved in global peace talks for 30 years. He now realizes that's exactly what they are. They're global peace talks.

talks. The reason we have the issues we have in the world, in our governments, in our political system, in our family, is because we talk to each other, but we don't know how to listen to each other. And he said, the reason we have conflict in all these environments is because we don't know how to listen. We have to talk. And if you look at our education system, we do not teach

It's so true. I mean, Bill says this. Bill says we have talk shows, but not listen shows. We have peace talks, but not peace listens. And at school, we're teaching speech and debate, but we don't teach listening skills. And isn't that part of the reason why Black Lives Matter is bubbling up right now is there's an entire proportion of our country that doesn't feel heard, that doesn't feel seen, that doesn't feel understood. Right.

And isn't that what every human being on the planet fundamentally wants, regardless of who we are, what our politics are? Every one of us wants to feel seen, feel heard, and feel understood. - Right, and in doing those three things, you feel cared for. It is fundamentally, Simon, it is hard to care for others if you don't feel cared for yourself. And the key to being cared for is to be heard,

to be listened to. And remember, the reason that we treat those closer to us is we already know what they're going to say, right? The new person you just walk up to, you don't know them. So you're more interested in them because you don't know them. The person you know well that you talked about maybe not listening as well to, you know what they're going to say, you know how they think, so you don't really need to listen to them. So it is a skill we teach and it is the most powerful healing force in the world.

Because right now we are divided by issues, not united by humanity. And that is the key. And so how can we see the kind of leadership that we want and imagine now in middle management so that we have the right leaders who will replace them at the right time? Yeah. So remember, Simon, you used that word that I hate, which is management. Yeah. I have come to the conclusion that management means in our society, the manipulation of others for your success.

Leadership means the stewardship of the lives entrusted to you. To genuinely care for the people, you have the privilege of leading with courage. Okay? It takes courage to care because we have a society where we use people for financial success instead of caring, and financial success is the outcome. And the other thing I want to make sure you remember is the old expression, you need to get the right people on the bus. I think you need a safe bus, which is a business model that is resilient and robust to get through the economic times.

And then you need drivers who know how to drive safely and where they're going. And those are your leaders. And so we need to change the language of business for management, bosses and supervisors to coaches, mentors and leaders. We need people to see themselves as a coach, mentor and leader, not as a manipulator of people for financial success. So the language you use in business, we fire people. That came from the French firing squad.

We have inhuman terms to describe what needs to be human organizations. And until we change the language, it's hard to change the behavior. And even if we change the language, we need to teach what it means to care as opposed to use. And sometimes it comes to a point where someone is a bad fit in the culture. And instead of, quote unquote, firing them after lots of coaching and trying to help, that you recognize that they're not happy because if you're not happy, they're not happy as well.

And the goal is to help them find a job where they will be happy. And it can be a productive thing where you can help them find a new job as opposed to just saying, you're no good. You wouldn't have to destroy someone's self-confidence on the way out. Well, Simon, in every speech I give within the first three questions,

which is what you touched on, is what do you do about the people that don't get it? Okay. And I said, you know what? My answer to that is treat everybody as somebody's precious child, as you would want your child treated. And they'd say, that would be different. I say, why is it different? That's somebody's child you're treating that way. So my standard of care is expect no less of your behavior with somebody else's child than what you expect of your own. And parenting, Simon, it's called hard love. Okay. Parenting is not giving your kids everything they want.

parenting is giving your kids everything they need, okay? So they can develop the skills to go out into the world and live meaningful and purposeful lives. That is exactly the same as leadership, is giving people the skills they need to pursue their career, to be who they're intended to be and appreciate it for whatever that is. So clearly,

In terms of the people that may not fit, how do you address them with dignity and let it be a learning experience so that they can move on and be empathetic and treat them as you would want your son or daughter treated if they didn't work out in the job too? Amen. Can you give another example of something you do inside your company for your people?

that makes them feel cared for? Yes. I mentioned it earlier, but I want to just amplify it. One of the, again, from parenting, we learned that you need to spend more, five times more time complimenting. We have a whole program in our company called Recognition and Celebration. How do you let people know in a thoughtful, appropriate, timely way, proportional way, that what they did matters? And so we teach people how to recognize people. And we do it, Simon, in a very unique way. We

In most cases, we give a car to drive for a week as a recognition. And we invite the family quietly, secretly to be a part of the ceremony when their child, their husband, their wife is called forward to receive the keys to the car to drive for a week. The family's

walks out and becomes a very emotional experience to see your wife, your husband, your son-in-law recognized for their goodness, nominated by their peers. So we spend a lot of time and effort looking for the goodness in an organization. It's called shining the light, looking for the goodness and holding up. We live in a society, Simon, where our people go home every night, turn on media and see the brokenness in the world every night.

So what we try to do is to balance that and look for the goodness and focus on the goodness and amplify the goodness, not letting the brokenness of the world dominate our culture, but the goodness. And what happens is it's like throwing a pebble in the water, the ripple effect. And it's the most meaningful experience of their life.

to be recognized in front of others for their goodness, not top sales, not top cost cutter, but for your goodness. That's the kind of world that we imagine where people were looking and recognizing people and saying, thank you. You made a material difference in my life. So recognition and celebration done thoughtfully, proportionally, and timely is a

key ingredient. What you want to do is give people a chance to discover their gifts, develop their gifts and share their gifts and feel appreciated for doing it. It doesn't matter what your business is. It's academic. That's just a particular model car you drive. It's culture that drives profit. I think that's the thing that people fail to recognize.

Cuss cutting is a short-term solution. Building a strong culture is what builds a strong organization, and a strong organization does well. Simon, if three out of four people in this country, according to Gallup, are disengaged in what they're doing, how can we possibly play the game? Whatever our game of business is, how can we possibly play that fully?

when three out of four people are disengaged in what they're doing. What more statistic do you need to know? If we had a machine tool in our plant that was only running at 25% of its capacity, we would address it. We have people in our companies only doing what they have to do to get by because they feel no compassion, no value. They're not going to give any more than expected of them. And if another opportunity comes along, they'll move because they don't feel safe in the company. Some of the millennials that work for us tell me that

that their parents say if they ever quit this job, they'll disown them because they found a place where they want their child to work, where they feel valued. That is our responsibility. We could profoundly change the world if we simply gave people the skills and the courage to care for the

people they lead.

And when it is my time, I will pass that torch on to someone else to carry on our legacy. I just love it. You know, you and I both imagine a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired, feel safe wherever they are, and end the day fulfilled by the work that they do. That is the world we imagine, Simon. That is the world we desperately need. That is the world at peace and in harmony where people live and care for each other.

That is the solution to the issues we face right now. People don't feel cared for, they feel used. So there's a lot of people who feel discriminated against for economic reasons, racial, all the reasons, because we just don't know how to care. And so I'm very concerned that we are self-destructing as a civilization for economic gain, not human gain. I love you, Bob Chapman. I really do. Simon, you're already carrying the torch.

and you're carrying it with great pride and you've shared our message around the world and you have amplified our message and we are simply going to try to be the company that we need to be to be an example. You can do this. It is possible to create human value and economic value in harmony. They are not in harmony and we sure want no less for our 12,000 team members than we want for my six kids. Everybody is somebody's precious child. Thank you, Simon Sinek. Love you. So that was Bob Chapman.

He's wonderful, and it's a real joy for me to share his words with other people. If you enjoyed this and you'd like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to hear podcasts. Until then, take care of yourself and take care of others.

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For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity. You have big plans. You don't just need space. You need the right space. Will Scott Mobile Mini is now Will Scott.

North America's largest space solution provider, offering everything from mobile offices and storage to temporary structures, all from one partner. So whatever your industry and whatever your need, Will Scott will help you find the space that's right for your project, right for your timeline, right from the start. Get started at willscott.com.