Invention is Reinvention with entrepreneur Eric Ryan
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There is no such thing as one creative process, no one way to be creative. Of course, that's impossible. But even creative people can't have the same process and often have to reinvent themselves or reinvent their process to be creative. In this episode, I have an amazing conversation about what it takes to be creative, what we have to change, and what we have to keep the same. Stay tuned.

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For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity.

For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You may not recognize Eric Ryan's name, but you definitely recognize his products. He is best known for co-founding Method products. Yes, those beautiful soaps that come in those gorgeous bottles and bright colors that we see on the shelves at the supermarket. He's managed to turn hand soap and shampoo into home decor items. The reason I respect Eric so much is not just because he has an eye for design.

It's because he's one of those rare entrepreneurs that has been able to repeat his success over and over and over. After Method, he founded Oli, the vitamin brand, Welly, a line of first aid kits, Cast, a fine jewelry company, and he's still not done. I wanted to ask Eric how he does it, and what follows is a conversation about serial creativity and why reinvention is the key to repeating creative success. This is a bit of optimism.

The reason I really wanted to have you come in, beyond your spectacular energy and optimism and joy of life, you are like the entrepreneur's entrepreneur. You're like the patron saint of entrepreneurs. And I think that's a great place to start, which is, what is an entrepreneur? Because I've always made the distinction that small business owners own small businesses.

entrepreneurs solve problems. Because you can find entrepreneurs inside large corporations. Yeah. Right? They don't necessarily have to start a small business. And some small business owners are entrepreneurs, but not all of them. Yes. And so how do you define entrepreneur? Because you define yourself as an entrepreneur. Yeah. No, it's definitely like who I see as part of my identity. And I think to your point of like a small business owner...

It's kind of more of an, you're doing something a little bit more independent. And I think an entrepreneur is really about inspiring a lot of people. Whether you're doing it inside a company or you're creating something independent from scratch. And to create change, you need to inspire people and bring people along with you. That's a big difference versus somebody who's just working independently, whether it's a small business owner or a contractor. So when you meet a young entrepreneur,

entrepreneur, at least self-defined entrepreneur. And they say, Eric, you know, I've got this amazing idea. I've got this amazing idea for a business. I want you to invest in me. What are the things you're looking for in their personalities? I mean, I buy into their ability to inspire, but that doesn't seem enough. My first company, Method, the soap company, we were fundraising. And I noticed a huge difference when I would sit across somebody who was an entrepreneur and then was investing. And there's two notable...

notable individuals, Jim McCain, who started 1-800-Flowers, and Howard Schultz, who started Starbucks. They were so less interested in my plan and my fictional numbers. They were so much more interested in me as an individual. And regardless of what your plan is, if I give you money, can I bet on you?

And then I would sit with funds and professional money managers, and they would dive so deep into the detail of that plan that I knew was fiction. And that was the first lesson I really learned of, they really understood at the end of the day, ideas are easy.

Execution's hard. Are you somebody who's going to run through walls and have, to your point, that belief, that work ethic, whatever it takes to make whatever your idea is successful? So this raises an interesting question, which is, should entrepreneurs, especially for their first go, ever try and raise money from numbers wonks, from money people? I mean, it's kind of a necessary evil, depending on where you are. I mean, that's why they're called angels in the beginning, because they're people who save you from business death. Yeah.

And so those first investors are people who

fundamentally don't believe potentially in your idea, but they believe in you. And that's why they're called friends and family rounds. Because you need your friends, you know. People who love you. Exactly. Like, look, I think you're an idiot, but I love you. Here's $10,000. Good luck with that. I never expect to see that money again. And that's how there's like, the beauty of taking money from friends and family, people you love is like, that puts a lot of pressure on you. You don't want to show up at that dinner table telling grandma, I'm sorry I lost your money.

People may not know your name, but they definitely know your products. Method being, as you said, your first and I think probably your most successful, your biggest one. Yeah, I think Ali's getting there. I think Ali and Method are about the same size. Yes, I am in your homes. Yes, but Method, I remember when Method came out all those years ago, and it took the world by storm because nobody had ever thought to make...

the hand soap that sits next to the sink, the dish soap that sits next to the sink. Like these things that are out in our homes, they're part of the landscape of the kitchen or the bathroom. No one ever thought to make them nice.

And that's fundamentally where it started, right? You just made the packaging beautiful. Yeah. I mean, you look at a dish soap more than you use it. And nobody thought about these products as a form of self-expression, a form of decor, lifestyling of your home. And this is back in 2000. I was working on the business plan. And Home and Garden TV was just taking off. MTV rocked the crib. So for the first time, IKEA was arriving in America. It was the first time that people were really starting to think about their home as a form of self-expression. Yeah.

And the products just felt like so, you know, they were products that said, buy me, not live with me. And we wanted to create something that said, live with me. But the problem was when Adam and I started creating it and we, you know, we create these, this beautiful packaging and then we dug in, we're like, oh,

Cleaning is like a really dirty industry. You pollute when you clean. You're asked to use poison to make your home healthier. So we're like, great, if we're successful, we're going to leave pretty little bottles of poison on everybody's countertop. So we had to solve another problem, which is like, how do we make sure these products are non-toxic, healthy for you, healthy for the planet? Yeah. I mean, it's very similar to what Jobs did, right? Because there was a gray box that was the early personal computer. And nobody wants a gray box on their living room, so they put it in the basement.

And Jobs in his Infinite Genius says, "If I want this to become an integrated part of our lives, then if I make it pretty, you'll put it in the living room." And it's a very similar mentality, right? Yeah. I mean, it's product placement, right? It's product placement. And I think people forget the importance of aesthetics and how it does contribute to functionality. It's funny you just said pretty. I have a hard time when people look at something through just the vanity of pretty. I'm like, "No, no, no. Design always has a purpose."

I want to know where the inspiration for Method came from, but then I also want to know the actual slog of making it happen. You said Howard Schultz and the 100 Flowers guy, they invested in the person, the people, you and your partner, who they believed would run through a brick wall

And we'll get to the brick walls in a minute. And by the way, neither of them invested in me. Oh, they didn't? No. They both said no? No. They both said... Actually, no. So, Maveron Howard Schultz's fund, they did invest. And we ended up going with Tim Kugel, who is another individual who believed in us at the time. He was running Yahoo. He was employee number six. They're a CEO. Okay. But we ended up going with somebody else over them. Oh, that's very interesting. Can I ask why? Interesting. So, their first term sheet came in at a really low valuation.

And when we said something about it, they doubled the valuation overnight. And it didn't feel like a great way to start off a marriage.

it was like they were bullshitting you out of the gate to see if you would take it yeah yeah oh that's yeah yeah and it did like at the end of the day like these are people like they're gonna be your true partners and i just i adored tim and just thought the guy was just built of like incredible integrity yeah and you know character mattered more than anything else oh this is such a great segue to a bigger conversation which is how to choose a partner right and like i get this question all the time i'm sure you get the same which is the number of times i've had entrepreneurs who

literally their investors are forcing them to make decisions that are bad for their companies. That they know are bad for their companies. And I've seen friends who've been fired from their own companies, you know? Creating anything from scratch, it's an iterative process. And it's not linear. And I think a lot of times too, when you make decisions around partners, they're often very linear thinkers. And to your point of like, you're going to fight, there's going to be tension because ultimately you're going to do something that is this iterative, you know, launch, learn, optimize, launch, learn, optimize.

And to be able to kind of work through that process, you need somebody who fundamentally, going back to believes in you, but also has the flexibility to work through you. When things go really wrong, which they always do when you're creating something for scratch. I'm sure you've been there many times. Too many times.

It's the game. It's the game. And when they're in the trenches with you, can you work through it together? Yeah. Or do they look to dismiss you because their ego gets bigger than yours? Yeah. So, one of the reasons you're special to me and you're special in the entrepreneur world, there's many successful entrepreneurs, but they've done it once. And was it their genius or did they win the lottery?

And some of them go around giving speeches equivalent to, let me tell you the numbers I picked on my lottery ticket. And you too can win the lottery, you know. And I have so much respect for the entrepreneur that does it a second, a third, a fourth time. Tell me how that happens. Because, you know, when you're young and hungry, it's a very different mentality than you've had your first...

you know, you've sold your first business and you're rich, and now you have to do it again. The hunger isn't quite there the same way. Like, what did you learn about what you did the first time that you actually had to adapt for the second and third time that's made it still work? Yeah, first of all, I was like going back to the journey of like, why do this again? It's hard. It's really, really hard to start a company from scratch and try to scale it up. And after, so we sold Method to SC Johnson.

For the first time in my life, I was a little grumpy and I couldn't figure it out. I felt a little rudderless and grumpy. And yeah, we had financial foundation now. And it's kind of funny. Entrepreneurship is the one thing when you exit it or you finish it, you get congratulated. You don't get congratulated for exiting your first marriage. It is all about entrepreneurship. When you exit it, that's the celebration.

And I realized like so much of my identity since I was a kid was this idea of being an entrepreneur. And I was no longer an entrepreneur. Like I wasn't scared at work. I was still a method, but it was super comfortable. There was no risk anymore. And it wasn't until I decided to go do Oli and create my second brand, like I snapped out of it. I was like, all right, I'm back. Like I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a founder again. Yes, I'm scared. But I was also terrified. To your point, on the first one, I was like, am I, did I just get lucky? Which,

There's always luck in a success story. That's why you can never have an ego. Luck always plays a role. When Wendigo started again, a lot of it was this idea of trying to find a playbook. I studied a lot of serial entrepreneurs like Richard Branson, and really understanding the ones who did it over and over again. There's got to be some key lessons or principles. Like you, I'd love to hear as you each time you go to write a new book. There is sort of a playbook that you learn.

And so I did, I was very conscious of like, okay, I want to take what worked, but more importantly, all the lessons I learned of what didn't work and apply it again to, to Oli the second time around. For example? At the end of the day, it's about great people and great products and being a good steward of capital. If you can do those three things,

your chances of getting lucky enough to have a successful company matters. So for me, I mean, I've got some really geeky ways that I think about it. So, okay, we'll geek out on branding. So I don't start with ideas. I start with categories or spaces. I was not passionate about cleaning. When I started Method, my mom was like, "Are you sure you really want to do this? I've never seen you make your own bed."

And my nickname was Marvin for my roommates, for Messy Marvin, because I never did the dishes. I got the angriest email from a good friend of mine, still good friend, who is my roommate in Minneapolis, who's like, you motherfucker. He's like, I never once saw you do the dishes. Now you have a successful dish soap. So I don't start from this place of passion. But by the way, this is apocryphal, because the belief has always been the sacred cow is...

You have to have a passion for the thing that you're making. Totally. In your case, you're calling bullshit. Not at all. I hate cleaning. I love it. But what I did love was home decor and design. Right. And so I found a way to find my passion through method, through design. Okay. So there has to be a passion. Yes. You find it. Same thing with Ollie. Like, I never took vitamins. Welly, like, I rarely bleed. But

But what I do is I start with categories. So I was literally looking at the sea of sameness of cleaning products in a grocery store. And that becomes like the clue of like dig here. Or in the case of Ollie, I just started looking at that vitamin aisle and saw people like literally stressing out trying to choose something healthy for them. So that's the clue, like dig here. And then I break it down. I try to figure out, okay, what is like the big cultural shift this category missed? So in the case of Method, we realized like, all right, lifestyle in the home and sustainability. Okay.

With Ali, it was like, millennials view health and wellness through the lens of a lifestyle pursuit. So this is when SoulCycle was taking off. So it's like, okay, what if we reimagine the vitamin as a lifestyle product?

To a certain extent, I'm a bit of a thief, so I steal between categories. If you look a lot at what method, I stole from housewares. I brought over this idea of making them look like little vases sitting on your countertop. But then I also stole from personal care, where it brought in great fragrances, beautiful colors. Oli, I stole from the beauty aisle. I tried to design something that would look at home in the beauty department and then bring that into the nutrition department, which was like a dog's breakfast of design before Oli arrived.

The reason I find this so sophisticated as a thought is it directly answers the question why old brands or old categories miss, to your point, miss changes in society. So like it's embarrassing that

that Apple invented iTunes and not the music industry. It's embarrassing that Netflix pioneered streaming and not the television and movies industries. It's embarrassing that Amazon invented the e-reader and not the publishing industry. It's because they're so fixated on their model that pulls in whatever money it pulls in that they just have their heads down, that they're just missing that the world is changing around them because every single one of them could have adapted but missed it.

And here, too, it's embarrassing that the traditional packaged goods companies, they could have done this. There wasn't some earth-shattering innovation here. They just weren't looking. That's right. That's why outsiders disrupt. Because once you're comfortable in your business model, and I think, too, you have to be a bit naive. You have to be able to look at a category or a product or a brand and not realize how hard it's going to be.

And it's like that beginner's eye of looking at a space through a fresh lens is so much easier than when you're like, yeah, you just, I always tell people when they come join us at work, I'm like, in the very beginning, make sure you get all of your ideas out to us while you've got fresh, a fresh perspective before you know too much like the rest of us. Yeah. After the break, I talk more with Eric about the power of naivete.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity.

For decades, the Mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcast, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System.

Listen to Law & Criminal Justice System on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Shunker, and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything. A moment that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I talk to people about navigating these very moments.

The last couple of years has been the hardest season of our marriage for sure. I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are. I think we both were barely holding on. Nothing compares to how hard this is. Their stories are full of candor, awe, and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change. True behavior change is really identity change. Every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Orson Welles talks about this. He's applauded for his courage challenging the movie industry. He was very vocal. He says, no, no, no, no. I had no courage. What I had was naivete. I asked for things I didn't know that I could get. They said that I was courageous to stand up to Hollywood. I was just asking for things they didn't know that they would say yes to.

And there's something to be said for naivete. It's definitely been one of my superpowers, which is just stupid enough to think I can make the change that I can. Well, you also just said you have such a talent at getting to the kernel of the truth of something or simplifying it in a way that is just so powerful. And then representing it back in a way that is just so powerful. Thank you. Like from a branding model, like I just admire your work and your ability to do that. And I think people give me too much credit.

you know, going back to the naivete. So you repeated what worked from business to business. You found the creative underpinnings that worked and repeated them. That's not my method. It hasn't worked that way. So when I wrote my first book, when I wrote Start With Why, it's kind of a funny little journey because nobody knew that I could write. I didn't know that I could write. The longest thing I ever wrote in my life was like... The longest thing that I ever wrote was like 10 pages, 15. I think I had this like...

If there was a 10-page paper, I could write it in six. If it was a 30-page paper, I could write it in six. You know? It's like I was really good at six pages. That was sort of like... That's your... So for me to write like 15 pages, that was like real work. But I'd never written anything long form. I didn't do a thesis or anything like that. And so when I got my first book deal, I cleared my calendar. I was already doing the speaking thing. And I was like emptied out my calendars like, all right, I'm going to have to write a book. And I was struggling. And then the few gigs that I had to say yes to because I had to pay bills...

I would bring my computer on the plane with me, and this was pre-internet on the plane, and pre-plugs on the plane, and so I had a battery that would last about... That was the golden era. Wasn't it, though? You could actually just disappear on a flight. So I would have a battery on my laptop that would last, if I was lucky, three or four hours, and I'd sit down, and I'd start writing, and my most productive times were on these flights. Oh, yeah, right? And it sort of dawned on me that this was the thing. I called Delta Air Lines...

And I got on the phone with the agent, like, "Okay, here's what I need. I need to be in the sky for three and a half hours minimum. I don't care where I go." And the agent was amazing and helped me plot all these flights. I went to Orlando for the day. I went to Arizona for the day. I even flew from New York to Los Angeles and right back again. Like, I went for the day. And I would show up at the airport with my laptop under my arm and nothing else. I wrote 2,500 words in a flight.

So that helped me write this book. Okay, flash forward, second book deal, Leaders Eat Last. Okay, I started booking flights to nowhere, gonna repeat the whole system. And what I'd failed to recognize is that I'd been on the speaking circuit for so long that like getting on planes is like,

It's exhausting. And I remember I booked my first flight for my first writing trip. I was going to the airport. I had my laptop. I was sitting in the back of a taxi. And I was literally, my heart was pounding and I was having dread, dread. And I told the taxi driver, turn around. And I turned the cab around and went back home and missed my flight. But the problem was now how am I going to write a book? And so each book that I've written, I've actually had to reinvent the creative process that would work.

Because the system that worked for the prior book never worked for the next book. But is there a common thread of finding a state of flow? I mean, of course. Of course, finding a state of flow is always the thing.

And I always will try the thing that worked before. And it doesn't. And it hadn't worked. And so this is where I learned the lesson. But why do you think that is? Like, why can't you replicate that? You have to rewrite your creative process. This is why I think what you do is fascinating, which is your ability to repeat. Because I think that as you go through life and as you sort of learn things, I'm not the person I was then that I am now. And even...

Each stage, I'm a different person. I have matured differently. I've learned new things. I have different tolerances. Like, I don't want to be on a plane flying nowhere anymore. You know? Unless I have somewhere to go, I don't want to be on a plane at all. You know? So I have different tolerances. I think this is why a lot of companies... Going back to the original analogy, which is why publishing missed...

the e-reader or why, you know, the music industry missed iTunes is because they're repeating-- these executives who'd made their way up the ranks, been doing the same thing for 20 or 30 years, they're simply repeating what worked the first time. Yep. And so they're unable to reinvent themselves or their categories. Right.

I find about you, but I find, I think part of my creative process is kind of going back to that. I don't start with ideas. I start with looking for the opportunity. Which I love by the way. I start with a space rather than ideas. So sophisticated. Because I find like if it's hard, it's probably wrong. And so I open lots of little doors and windows. And then once I kind of find that little nugget, if it flows really fast and easy, then I know it's right. And when I look back at my career, when something failed,

It was the same pattern over and over of like, it was really hard and we kind of forced our way through it. Give me, give an example of one of your spectacular failures. Oh, so we just launched this big, so I've had this, I wanted to go after the pharmacy industry. And I think when you go shop those categories of NyQuil, Tylenol, like it's just dated, it's unnecessarily confusing. And I love like polyamory.

Part of my formula is kind of what you said before, but taking an inner child approach to a category that takes itself too seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is most things. Most things. And then therefore overly complicates it as well. Right. And that's where I get kind of the greatest joy, if I can break that down. And so we launched this big pharmacy OTC line. And my whole goal was really simplify it, make it more delightful.

And the consumer didn't respond. They're just so on autopilot of their choices, but every part of it was hard. The design was so hard. Trying to create these child resistant caps, but they were still beautiful and functional was hard. Getting the pharmaceutical vendors to work with us was like, every part of it was like moving water uphill. And in the end, like... It didn't flat. It was beyond flat.

I mean, I love our team and we all gave it our best shot and worked so hard on it. Where I'm about to launch a new product in June here, coming up pretty quickly. We were on vacation in Greece last summer and within a couple days, I concepted the entire thing, took it back, talked to a couple partners, put it in front of Target, very high concept. They're like, "Great, we love it." And then the end result on shelf. I know if I have a really good idea,

or it's going to win if it's so painfully obvious that it scares them. Like you can't believe that nobody else noticed. Cannot believe. And that's like with Method, not only the world's first, but largest multinationals like dominate these categories. They have 150 year head start. This is before e-commerce. So barriers to entry were brutal getting into, you know, grocery stores and mass retailers. And the thing I struggle the most with is like, this is so painfully obvious. Why of all these companies with resources, back to your point before, have not done it.

So I put it together as a concept. I gave it to the 20 smartest people I know and I told them, "Go shoot holes in this. Tell me why this is going to fail." And everybody came back with the same answer. I'm like, "The only reason is because no one else has done it, so therefore it must be a bad idea." We're just going to take a quick break and then Eric and I are going to go down the rabbit hole of what innovation really is.

For 25 years, Brightview Senior Living has been dedicated to creating an award-winning company culture so residents and families receive best-in-class services. Across our 50 communities, Brightview associates help deliver peace of mind, safety, security, transportation, daily programs, delicious food, and high-quality care if needed.

Discover how our vibrant senior living communities can help you live your best life. Visit brightviewseniorliving.com to learn more. Equal housing opportunity.

For decades, the mafia had New York City in a stranglehold, with law enforcement seemingly powerless to intervene. It uses terror to extort people. But the murder of Carmichael Ante marked the beginning of the end, sparking a chain of events that would ultimately dismantle the most powerful crime organization in American history. It sent the message to them that we can prosecute these people.

Discover how a group of young prosecutors took on the mafia and with the help of law enforcement brought down its most powerful figures. These bosses on the commission had no idea what was coming their way from the federal government. From Wolf Entertainment and iHeart Podcasts, this is Law & Order Criminal Justice System. Listen to Law & Order Criminal Justice System on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey there, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar, and I'm a scientist who studies human behavior. Many of us have experienced a moment in our lives that changes everything. A moment that instantly divides our life into a before and an after. On my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans, I talk to people about navigating these very moments. The last couple of years has been the hardest season of our marriage for sure.

I'm surprised our marriage survived it. I think we both are. I think we both were barely holding on. Nothing compares to how hard this is. Their stories are full of candor, awe, and hard-won wisdom. And you'll hear from scientists who teach us how we can be more resilient in the face of change. True behavior change is really identity change. Every action you take is a vote for the type of person you wish to become.

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, new line of questioning. Yes. What is innovation? Every company says they're innovative, which clearly is bullshit. It's creative thinking applied to business.

Creative thinking applied to business. Say more. I think innovation is often used as a fancy word for just like thinking creatively. Yeah, but why do companies think that adding product and features, adding features and benefits is innovation, which you and I know it isn't?

Because innovation sounds like it's harder than it really needs to be. Therefore, you can charge more to do it or take greater credit than what you really did. So let me give you an example of what I think is innovation and call bullshit if you think it deserves it, right? It's such a loaded word. So we often confuse innovation of adding a motor or a flat screen to something. Look how innovative it is. I'm like, you just got rid of the switches and the dials and made it a screen. Yeah.

That's not innovative. So for example, there used to be a time when you and I, we can remember this, where they had a screen in the conference room and there's a little string hanging from the ceiling and you pulled on the string and the screen came down. And when you pulled on the string again, the screen went up. And somebody decided in their infinite wisdom to put a motor in. And I don't remember a conference room where that motor ever worked. It was always broken down or broken up, right? Or halfway. Or halfway. Okay.

There was no need to put a motor in, it wasn't broken. Now, if it's a home and it's an aesthetic thing, you don't want a string hanging from the ceiling, add the motor, add the button instead of a light switch. Love it, right? But in an office, it literally solved no problems. Yep. Right? In fact, it took longer than just grabbing that handle and pulling it down. Exactly. And most of the time was broken anyway. I think it's saying too, innovation should be making things easier. It's solving the problem.

but often innovation just makes things harder. Again, it's such a loaded word of like, oh, we got to really split atoms here. It's technology for technology's sake. For sure. And I think a lot about soft innovation. And it's like what we did with Method, like creating a product that worked just as well as a conventional cleaner, but was non-toxic, wasn't hard. It just took more care to want to solve that problem or a bottle that looked beautiful out. So let's think about that for a second. The innovation...

The innovation, the problem that you were solving was recognizing that our homes are our sanctuaries. We choose furniture to look nice. We choose art to look nice. We even choose large appliances to look nice, right? There are beautifully designed mixers. You know, KitchenAids are these magical, beautiful pieces of industrial design, and they come in 30 different colors.

Because you choose one that aesthetically you like that bright red mixer. It becomes a form of self-expression. It becomes a form of self-expression. But we have no choice for the soap dispenser, the dish liquid dispenser, go down the list. And you simply, to your point, the innovation was...

Everything out matters. If it's in a cupboard, who cares? But everything out matters. At least that's where it starts. That's right. And then when I really try to push harder innovation, so I think probably the proudest thing I've ever created at Method, we did a 10x...

concentrated laundry detergent. I don't know if you ever saw it. It was so well concentrated that we were able to get rid of the cap altogether and just do a pre-measured pump. And it was like this cone shape. So it was like the size of a shampoo bottle. I do remember it. You do like 30 loads of laundry out of something the size of a shampoo bottle. And it was so clean. You just do it. Like you do two squirts, three squirts. It was like, I think the greatest innovation of all time in laundry. And it was so hard to get people to buy it.

Where then we went back to like a traditional 3X. Because it was overcoming the hurdle of like, oh, it's so little. Laundry detergent, is it really going to work? Ah, they didn't believe the promise that we'd been conditioned that a whole cup of detergent is what gets your clothes clean. So one tiny little pump clearly couldn't work.

So we went back to a 3x, we actually moved the entire laundry industry to shrink down because of us, because then everybody would put pressure on them. But then we went back to just a 3x, which was much larger.

and did some really beautiful fragrances and it way outsold our incredibly innovative. - This speaks so beautifully to understanding people's psychology, right? Do you know the old thing about like Duncan Hines and Betty Crocker, like the cake mix? Do you know the story of this? - Oh, when you like, they added the egg back in? - Right, right. - Yes. - So when the original, so cake, I don't know if it was in the 40s or the 50s, when the cake mix was first invented,

Literally, you just added water to the mix and you could make a cake. And nobody bought it because they were ashamed, they were embarrassed that they didn't make the cake. And so they changed the formula that you had to add the oil and the egg.

Because now they could say, I baked a cake. Because by adding an egg and mixing it up and adding the oil, I made the cake. It's genius. It's like that law of like... So you want to make it easy, just not too easy. Totally. But it's like one iteration. Like whenever you iterate two off of something, like the innovation often fails. If you see really what works for us is you take something that is very familiar and you put one...

spin on it that gives a little novelty but too much. It's like that intersection of familiar and novel. Or I think the intersection of altruism and narcissism. So with the cake mix, the narcissism of this was really easy, but you still want the altruism of I bait the cake. I bait the cake. I'm still like a great mom. Yeah. Okay, let's change the subject here. Tell me something you've worked on in your career, whether it was commercially successful or not, I don't care, that if every project went like this one, you'd be the happiest person alive. Mm-hmm.

I think the thing I'm probably most famous for that could be on my gravestone someday is the Teardrop Hand Wash. That was like our third product. It was actually Target's idea. They came to us and said, we think there's an opportunity because they were all like the hand washes were like really, really bad design. You know, the Dial Soft Soap.

So I saw this, it was in Vogue Living Australia. Yes, I'm the type of guy who would read Vogue Living Australia. And it was this photo shoot of this bathroom and it had this beautiful teardrop vase with a flower in it sitting on it. And we were working with Kieran Machine, who's like, you know, incredibly famous, talented designer. And this was his second product he was designing for us. And he kept coming up with these like ridiculously, very elaborate over the top designs. And I knew I wanted to do this design, but I couldn't, I had to make it his idea.

And so I sat sitting with him at a cafe and I was just like, "What about a teardrop?" And he finally got annoyed with the project. He sketches a teardrop, gives it to me. We go back. I come back the next day, get the little, the model. I was like, "All right, Karim, press calls you. Is this in your top 10 of favorite items?" He's like, "No." He's like, "You did not like it at all."

It went on to be his most produced item of all time. But the second that landed on shelf, it just flew. And it's just been like an icon ever since. We've done it in ocean plastic. We've done different design collaborations on it. That's like my favorite project. And it's

It does what I think for me is the ultimate form of success, is creating an everlasting gobstopper. Meaning the product is iconic, but yet you can constantly refresh it. And every time you do, it reinforces back to the icon. And of all the amazing success you've had, all these incredible products that you've developed and invented, what specifically was it about the Teardrop hand wash that stands out from all the others that you want to talk about it now?

I think it was convincing this incredibly powerful, intimidating designer at the top of his game to do something he didn't want to do because I believed in it. And doing it in a way where he's very, Karim's very proud of it. Overcoming that creative process with somebody who I was humbled to be around, I think it was one of my, yeah. And I don't know if Method would have been as successful if we didn't do that teardrop.

Tell me an early specific childhood memory, something I can relive with you. You know, I loved, my favorite thing to do is building ice rinks in the backyard. Ice rinks? Yeah. So I build these rinks every year. Would you like to take a hose in the backyard kind of thing? Yeah. So you build out, like you put out these two by fours, you fill it with plastic. And I got the idea to fill it with blue dye. It had snowed that night. So in the morning, my parents look outside and

And it was like a cartoon where all the fresh white snow, but it had fallen like while it was freezing in this incredibly beautiful blue sky.

slab of ice, this radiating blue ice in the middle of the backyard. My parents are like, I think this goes back to the aesthetic of like, I couldn't just create an ice rink. I had to create the most beautiful ice rink I could possibly do with like two by fours, water, plastic, and some coloring food dye. And of all the amazing things you did in your happy childhood, what was it about this, making this blue ice rink?

that stands out from everything else? I think it was just so satisfying to look at it, just visually. If you look at everything I do, there's a sensory element to it. I try to design sensory experiences, even a vitamin, like the taste of it, the touch of it, the way the jar opens.

When there's a real sensory element to it, in both its visual appearance, its feel, it's like it creates an experience. And that stupid little ice drink in the backyard felt like an experience. I mean, there seems to be like...

the desire to bring joy to everything you do. You talked about it before. You talked about the responsibility of a leader and entrepreneurs to inspire people around you to want to come and do this with you, which is not how most people would define entrepreneur. From the very beginning, you said the definition of an entrepreneur is somebody who inspires others. So Karim, there was an inspiration component there as well, where you sort of inspired him to see something that couldn't be seen or do something that hadn't been done.

super simple and super beautiful and elegant. And it seems like there's this desire to inspire and this desire to just bring a little bit of happiness and joy and make people smile in everything you do. And it goes to what you said, which is if it flows, it's right. And if it's too difficult, you're not smiling doing it. And it seems like the bringing of joy to the world in the people you come in contact with, the products you make, the way you want to be inspired yourself by your own ideas. It's like if it's joyful, it's good. If it's not joyful, don't do it.

Yeah, I bring like an inner child approach to these categories that take themselves so serious. Yeah, there is. It's childlike, but not childish. That's right. It's childlike wonder. You bring childlike wonder to the things that you do. The benefit that we get from your products is childlike wonder. That's right. It makes us smile. That's right. It's really pretty simple. Wait till you see the candy brain I'm launching. I'm going to be really, really, really Willy Wonka. Eric, you make me smile.

I think we take stuff too seriously, you know? Especially now. Especially now. And we've forgotten that underlying joy

And, you know, even when we're starting businesses, we take ourselves too seriously. We take the products too seriously. We take the things. And at the end of the day, most products that we make aren't saving lives. Most of us aren't looking for the cure for cancer. So if we can't bring a little bit of childlike joy to the world, because we lose it as we get older, right? We had it when we're young. That's right. We find wonder in everything. We find wonder in making a blue ice rink. And at some point we realize that that's silly. Just make an ice rink, an ice rink. And you want to go back to making all their ice rinks blue. And we're better off because of it.

Thank you for having me. Love. It's been an absolute pleasure. Love.

If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to hear more, please subscribe wherever you like to listen to podcasts. And if you'd like even more optimism, check out my website, simonsenik.com, for classes, videos, and more. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other. A Bit of Optimism is a production of The Optimism Company. It's produced and edited by David Jha and Greg Reutershan, and Henrietta Conrad is our executive producer.

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