Hope with Curtis Martin
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Our nation is facing a challenge unlike it's faced in decades. There's anger, there's frustration, there's fear, there's exhaustion. And the question is, is how do we get through this? Most people want to talk to Curtis Martin because of his football career. But I wanted to talk to Curtis because of the way he sees the world, the way he understands people, the way he goes through life. The insights he has, the lessons he's learned,

I think will help us navigate as we go through this together because we have to get through this together. This is a bit of optimism. Curtis, I have so much respect for the way you see the world. And you're, to me, you're like a monk. You have such a calmness, but also such insight into how people work and how the world works. And given everything that our nation is going through right now, you're one of the first people I wanted to talk to

to find out how you feel about everything, what you're thinking about? - Yeah, well, you know, Simon, the one thing that I think I feel is something different,

There's been other situations like Trayvon Martin, Breonna Taylor, Eric Garner. And those are something that if you're in a black community, they resonate with you. But I don't know what it is. And I'm not saying that their deaths was any different than George Floyd's, but I do think that there's just something a little different. I think there's a different fire. I think that black people in black communities

When you see a cop kneeling on another black man's neck like that, it does something to you because most of us, especially the males in the black community, we've had some type of experience where we know that that could have very easily been us. And so I think this was somewhat the tipping point.

And I think that's what we're seeing play out in society. I think what's so different about this one versus the tragic long list of others is that this is the first time that the entire scene was captured on film.

you know, the other ones, we heard the story, or we saw a photograph of what happened afterwards. And there was always, there was always the quote unquote police report of they were violent, or they were armed, or they reached for something. And the reality is, the black community didn't believe that, and the rest of us didn't know. And for the first time,

We saw what the black community have already known for ages. Yeah. That the police report that they filed was was fake to cover up with the even even even with the footage. They still there's still a fake police report. For the first time, we saw the whole thing beginning to end. And it it struck us. It struck the rest of America as hard as it always strikes the black community.

And you know something, Simon? When I think back to it, the first time I saw that video, what really touched me was when I saw this strong, grown black man on the ground with a white guy with his knee on his neck. And this strong black man starts crying out for his mother. And he's saying, Mama, you know, like there's something about that that resonates with

All of us. Black and white. And then what really, I think, made it sink into, I know for me, and I can't speak for everyone else, was when I saw the guy, you know, I believe he urinated. And it's like you just saw the life go out of him. And

So you literally got to sit and watch someone murder someone like blow by blow on tape, on video. And you have to think a lot of our kids are exposed to this type of thing. And it was just something that was in my mind so cruel. It's one of the cruelest things. I've seen a lot of cool things in my life, Simon. But that was just an extremely cruel thing to me. And I think to all of us. I've had...

some difficult conversations with black friends, with white friends. And one of the things that I've, I've come to realize is I have anger. You have anger, but the difference is, is my anger is not laced with fear. Right. And as a, as a, as a black friend of mine shared with me is not only is my anger not laced with fear, my anger is also not laced with exhaustion and where, where I have found myself weeping in some of these conversations, it's choking me up now.

as I find myself weeping in some of these conversations, my black friends aren't weeping. And I asked them, how come I'm cut up and you're not? And they said, because this has affected me every single, I've seen this over and over and over again. I'm exhausted. My friends tell me where for us, because for white America, because it's the first time we've seen the whole, the whole scene play out. And we haven't had the same experiences. I haven't had an experience with a, with a police officer like you have.

that for the first time it was deeply, deeply personal. And you know something, Simon? I think that white America got a glimpse of what black America

literally lives with all of our lives. It's been like that since as long as I can remember. I grew up in an extremely abusive household where my father was strung out on drugs and extremely abusive to my mother. But you know what? In that community and even all the neighbors, because we live in a project type of environment. But you know what, Simon? Nobody wanted to call the cops. Mm-hmm.

In the black community, calling the cops is like your last resort. That's just like you're at the end of your rope. You would rather suffer many times with what you're dealing with in your community, your household or whatever it may be before you call the cops. Because even back then, I knew at five years old, four years old, like you don't pick up the phone.

There was many times where I wanted to call the cops on my father, but that's just something that you know you do not do in the black community. And mainly because we know that we may call the cops because of this bad situation that's going on in our household, but when the cops get there,

More than likely. And that's just the mindset that that situation is going to turn into a worse situation. Yeah, the escalation. And so imagine, you know, most of us live with that type of, you know, you talk about the fear, but we live with that fear on top of the distrust, on top of the, you know,

visions of injustice that we've witnessed in our own communities all the time. And so there's this distrust, you know, a lot of times for the police.

And it's not to say that all police are bad or anything, you know, because there's a lot of us who have been through a whole lot of adversity in some horrible situations and the police were there for us. But then you see something like what happened to George Floyd and it almost throws you back into this distrustful state. The thing that I've come to love and admire about you is you have this intense optimism that, you know, you grew up in the most horrible,

horrendous of conditions, you know, as you said, abusive father, you watched your mother getting tortured. You've witnessed your friends being killed. You've had your life threatened and yet still you, you still remain positive and forward thinking. And in the face of extreme pain, you know how to move forwards. And I think in this time of pain and fear, I, you know, how, what can we learn? How do we move through pain? Where, where does this go?

Well, you know, Simon, I think what would help so many people, I think what would help America with the pain is if these cops are, if justice is served, because I think that it would be a huge hole in the heart of America if these guys got off like so many other people have gotten off in situations like this. If that happens this time,

You know, I don't know what will happen. I'm afraid of what will happen if that happens this time. The thing that I'm also starting to understand is, you know, it's not enough to put Band-Aids on these situations anymore, which is there has to be systemic change so that we prevent this from happening. Exactly. And again, I think that is difficult for us.

a specific group of people to continually feel like they're being treated unfairly. You know, just for instance, if I'm a white person and I'm in a community, calling the cops is the first thing I do if something's really wrong, because I'm not worried about how things might be interpreted, if I might get blamed for something. You know, you don't think that way

Or most people don't think that way when you're a white person. But when you're a black person, you always have to think twice. And I think what we're seeing in our society, Simon, is a group of people who are losing hope. And I think the fighting and the protesting and everything, I think that it's a cry out for, you know,

give us something to hope for. So I think the injustice part of it is causing people to lose hope of just basic fairness. And so that's the level of intensity and anger and aggression that we're seeing throughout the streets of America. I think it's a result of that. You've been able to move through pain in your life.

There have to be some transferable lessons. Yes. What can we learn? You've done it. You've done it in your life. Does it work at a societal level? Does it work for a community? I think that it works for a community. I think it works in a society because I think that it's the individuals that make up the community in a society. So I think that if we could learn how to use this pain

and frustration or whatever it may be and pull something positive out of it. On an individual level, I think it translates into a community level. Eventually, if enough of us can do that, but that's very difficult. And remember, Simon, just take my life, for instance, you know, this kid who grows up in this abusive household and, you know, 30, 40 of my friends were murdered. You know, we found my grandmother murdered with a knife in her chest and blood everywhere.

My aunt is burned to death. And I have a friend who's wrapped up in a carpet and the carpet is beat with bats until, you know, they die. And you see all of this type of stuff growing up. And then, you know, you get in a situation and this happened to me personally, where I'm racially profiled.

Now, most of us who grow up under those circumstances, you know, sometimes we may not have the composure or the peaceful words or the compliance that that's being demanded of us in that moment. And, you know, I saw this thing on Instagram where a young man was pulled over. The young guy gets out of his car. The cop tells him to get out of his car. And he's saying, officer, you know, what did I do wrong?

And the officer says, just put your hands up and get on the ground. And the guy's like, just tell me what I did wrong, officer. And the guy literally has his hands all the way up. And the officer says, get on the ground. And the guy's like, and the guy's girlfriend is recording all this going on. And the guy's just like, officer, I just want to know why I am being pulled over. Like, why are you telling me to get on the ground? I didn't do anything. I'm keeping my hands up. Isn't that enough?

And the officer keeps demanding for him to get on the ground. And the guy just said, no, I'm not getting on the ground. But my hands are up. I don't have anything on me or anything. And the officer tries to come over there and like snatch him up. And, you know, in that moment when you have a guy who may have grown up the way I grew up again and that moment when it's such an unjust situation.

It's hard to keep your composure when you feel like you're being treated unfair. And so what that guy did when the cop tried to grab him, he just like he didn't touch the cop or anything. He just like shrugged the cop off of him with his shoulders and stuff. And then the cop

you know, pulls back from, pulls out his, I'm not sure if it was his taser or his gun. You can't really tell from the video. And the guy asked, could you just please call your senior, you know, officer or whatever to come to the scene? And the guy and his girlfriend are demanding that this guy's senior, senior officer comes to the scene.

the senior officer comes to the scene simon and you know the guy feels a little relieved so he turns around with his hands up to go and talk to the senior police officer this guy doesn't ask any questions or anything he walks straight towards the guy grabs him by the neck and rams him into the car wow and then the guy's like caught off guard and he's just trying to like you know he doesn't know what's going on and in that situation you don't know if someone's trying to kill you or what because he didn't even ask a question

And so they grab him. They both get on top of him and they start pummeling this guy and take him to the ground and they're punching on him and everything. And again, Simon, the frustration, you know how it is when you know you haven't done anything wrong and someone's treating you unfair. And then you're expected to comply with every little thing that someone who's treating you unfair tells you to do.

I think the way that guy reacted is the pervasive mentality in the black community right now. People are just tired. And like you said, when we started this conversation, exhausted. My question is, where's the leadership? I'm tired of press conferences where a police chief stands up and says it's just a few bad apples. The whole saying, which is never said, the whole saying is a few bad apples spoils the whole barrel.

And we now have a pervasive problem in the profession of policing that goes way deeper than a few bad apples. And so my question is, where's the leadership? There needs to be massive, massive reform in the police departments. And leadership needs to recognize that the manner in which they recruit has to change. They can no longer recruit to a paramilitary ideal. They have to recruit to a service ideal because you don't want to attract people who want a paramilitary job. You want to attract people who want to serve their community. There needs to be leadership training

promoting people who are good leaders, not just promoting people who are high performers or writing enough tickets or making enough arrests. There needs to be new metrics on what it means to be a good police officer. We need systemic change inside these organizations. Otherwise, this is going to continue. I agree with that. I agree for the calls to ban a particular move, you know, a chokehold or something, but that won't solve a problem.

I'm originally from England a long time ago, and the cops for the most part don't carry guns in the UK. And I've talked to cops in the UK and they find it astonishing that police here draw their guns as often as they do. And I asked a cop in England, I said, "What do you do if a guy attacks you with a knife?" He goes, "We know how to disarm them." Like they're trained with their hands and their batons to disarm an attack.

And I've asked cops in the United States, I said, what do you do if a guy lunges at you? You say, oh, you shoot him. Where is the in-between? I understand the choice to use mortal force in the face of a mortal threat, but there needs to be dramatic and significant and substantial change.

inside the organizations, not just the moves that they're banning or not banning and the manner in which these organizations are led. Otherwise, this will never change. I agree. This opportunity where for the first time we have all seen the full video, this opportunity will be squandered. This amazing rise of understanding, of the desire to listen, that people understand the difference between

being non-racist and being anti-racist, that one requires action, the other one is passive. This mirror that's been held up, that there is accountability as a nation, as a policing profession, as a white race. We have to take advantage of this astonishing opportunity of all of these things coming together. Well, Simon, you know, and you and I have spoken before about

My perspective on problems, right? I believe that on the other side of every problem is an opportunity. I actually believe that we have to be very careful about the way we view our problems because hidden behind our problems and some of our biggest problems are usually some of our biggest problems.

opportunities and some of our greatest blessings. And this is a huge problem in our society today. I think there's a tremendous opportunity for change. I think there's a tremendous opportunity for leadership. And the reason why I think that this is different, Simon, is because I think not only Black people, but white people and all people are demanding change.

And I don't think that things will return to normal. It may take a while for that change to be realized over a period of time. But I do believe that there will be policies and different things that are done from a legal level that will

hopefully prevent some of these things from happening in the future. And the Black community is definitely going to demand it. And we've demanded it before, but like I said, I think the world is different. I believe hitting behind some of our biggest problems are some of our biggest blessings and some of our greatest opportunities. A lot of times,

we fear the pain that that problem is going to bring into our lives. So we may sweep a problem under the rug or try to avoid a problem. But I believe that in avoiding that problem and avoiding challenging yourself within that problem, you're also avoiding the blessing or the opportunity or the reward that was on the other side of that problem. So I believe that

Problems happen and not referring to necessarily what the world is dealing with now, just on an individual level. I believe that problems happen for five reasons in our lives. And those reasons are to correct you, inspect you, direct you, protect you, and perfect you.

I believe that every problem that we go through on an individual basis will fall under one of those categories. That problem will either direct you, inspect you, correct you, protect you, or perfect you. And a lot of times, we never really get to see why these things are happening in our lives. But life doesn't work by just going so good and being so peaceful all the time. Sometimes you need that challenge in order to make a change.

in your life or to do whatever it is that you could possibly do in the world. One of the biggest problems for me as a 20 year old, other than overcoming the environment that I grew up in, was when I was leaving college and trying to decide whether or not to go into the NFL. Right now,

The coach posed an extreme problem for me. He said he didn't want me to leave college early. So he somewhat threatened me and told me that it was a bonehead decision and told me that he was going to go tell all the media about the bonehead decision that I was about to make. And, you know, basically just wanted to totally discourage me. And in hindsight, I want to try to give it the benefit of the doubt and say that

He just wanted to keep one of the best players on the team in college for another year. And somewhat rightfully so, because I had been injured almost every single year during my college career. So the likelihood of me surviving the NFL just wasn't likely. But I remember going to my coach and saying, Coach, listen, I've been struggling with this idea of either going into the pros or coming back to college for another year.

And literally, I posed it just like that, Simon. And the coach went off on me. You know, he said, why would you even be thinking about something like that? You can't even play a full season in college. What makes you think you can survive in the NFL? That is one of the dumbest decisions that I've ever even heard. If this is what you're thinking, he said, listen, I'm about to go over to the press conference and I'm going to tell

the entire Pittsburgh media about the bonehead decision that Curtis Martin is about to make. And you know something, Simon? As I left his office, I remember before I walked out the door, I looked at him and I said, you know what, coach? Thank you. Because the one thing that I know is that I won't be coming back here next year.

I thought I was, but you helped me make my decision. And that's what I came for. It didn't come in the package that I wanted it to coach, but thank you. Because one thing I know is that I'm either going into the NFL or I'm going home. I am not coming back to college now.

Look, at the end of the day, Simon, that turned out to be the best decision for me. That first year I went into the NFL, I had an incredible year. I went to the Pro Bowl and got Rookie of the Year. And everyone told me I wouldn't even play in the NFL. And thereafter, you know, I've had a successful career and finished in the Hall of Fame. But at the end of the day,

if I was afraid to deal with that fear, to not step up, to just kind of sweep it under the rug and accept that, I don't even think we'd be on this phone having a conversation, Simon. Because when he presented that problem to me, when I felt the disdain that he had towards me in that moment, you know, I wasn't always kind of refined the way I am. You know, I was this young kind of

guy who just came out of the streets of Pittsburgh. And so back then I just said, all right, well, now it's me against you. And it wasn't about proving him wrong as much as it was proving myself right. But that problem directed me because it definitely changed my direction from thinking I was going to come back to college to going into the NFL. It inspected me because it made me really dig deep and look at who I was and what I believed in and what I wanted to do.

And then it corrected me because a lot of the things that he said about me as a coach was actually true because I didn't take football serious. I didn't work really hard. So I started working harder than I've ever worked before in my life. And it protected me because I don't think that I would be in the situation I am now had I gone back to college for another year. And ultimately, I believe all those things work together to perfect us little by little. And so that's my perspective on problems.

Can you tell me the story of when you got injured, when you hurt your shoulder in a game? Oh yeah. So I think we were playing the New York Giants and it was probably the fourth game of the season. I get the ball, I have about a 10, 12 yard run and I get hit and my whole shoulder pops out of socket. I'm talking about, it's totally, I can't even move my shoulder.

And they take me to the sideline and the doctor looks at me and you could see my shoulder kind of the bone sticking up, not out of my skin, but you could see that it wasn't in place. And so the doctor tells the coach, he says, he's done. And I look at him, I said, what do you mean by done? He said, you're probably going to have to have to get this surgically repaired. And I said, so my season's over. He said, it looks like it. I said, well, listen, doc, take me back up.

I want to get back in the game. And he says, Kurt, you can't take a shoulder up for you to go back and get shoulders out of socket. And so what I eventually did, had them do was to take my arm against my sternum so that I couldn't move that arm. I could just move.

move from my elbow down to my hand to hold a ball, but I couldn't lift my arms up over my head or anything like that. And I asked him if I can go back in the game. I asked the coach if I could go back in the game. And I asked the doctor, I said, doc, can this get any worse? He said, no, Curtis. I mean, it is what it is. So I go back in the game. I get the ball assignment. And when I knew I was about to get tackled,

Instead of shriveling up and protecting that shoulder, I rammed that shoulder into the defender's helmet as hard as I could. And Simon, I'm telling you, the pain that I felt shoot through my body was just like shocking. And I remember lying on the ground and I kept telling myself, get up. And I got up.

And even though it was so painful, I made my way back to the huddle. And in my mind, Simon, I defeated that pain because I told myself, if I could just make it back to the huddle, I'm okay.

And then I took another play and I made it back to the huddle and so on and so on. And before long, before that game was over, I had already made up in my mind that I could play the entire season with that shoulder and that condition. And I ended up having one of my best seasons that year. The thing that I love about that story is that when we perceive a problem, that it's overwhelming. Like you couldn't imagine finishing the game with that shoulder.

But what you could do was you could get back to the huddle. And I just love that when we're overwhelmed by a problem, that we need two things. One, to stay, keep our eyes on the prize, to understand the vision of where we're trying to get to, and then take the smallest, smallest step to get there. Can I get back to huddle? Can I get back to the huddle? Can I get back to the huddle? And it turns out you can finish a whole game if you keep getting back to the huddle.

And then all of a sudden, finishing a game isn't so overwhelming anymore with a busted shoulder. Yeah. I just love that. Yeah, people always ask me, do I miss the game? And my first response is always no. But what I do miss are the lessons that I've learned from the game.

through football. You know, for me, that's an invaluable lesson. So that lesson, the way it registers in my mind is just get back to the huddle. No matter what I'm going through, if it's in my marriage and my wife and I, you know, have a, you know, an argument or something, you know, get back to the huddle. You know, like this is not the end of the world. You can deal with this pain. Deal with it. Don't avoid it.

but deal with it. And so I've applied principles like that to my entire life, whether that's in business, whether that's spiritually or emotionally. And usually getting rid of the pain means exempting ourselves or removing ourselves from the situation that's painful. But what if we would take the other approach and dive in even deeper and go through that pain and come out on the other side? Like that's what

I've learned to do in life. And it's been one of the greatest lessons that I've learned in my life. I remember reading this Bible verse one day, and it talked about Jesus. And it said, because of the glory that was set before him, Christ endured the cross. And what it's saying is that Jesus had his eyes set on the way

Him dying on that cross was going to help so many people and inspire so many people. And I'm not pushing beliefs on anyone, but I'm just talking about the Bible. It says, because of that vision of what was on the other side of that cross, that's what helped Jesus endure the cross. See, I believe that we all have our own personal cross in life. And a lot of times, instead of enduring that cross,

we try to avoid it. And in avoiding that, like I say, we also avoid that blessing. Those people

whose lives we could have touched. Because a lot of times, Simon, life isn't just about you. A lot of the pain that you're going through isn't just for you. The pain that Martin Luther King went through just wasn't just for him. It's benefiting us today. You know, the pain that I'm going through right now is going to benefit my daughters and my household and my grandchildren one day. You know, so the pain that we go through isn't just for us. And if we can keep our eyes open,

somewhat focused on the greater good that will come out of the pain, I think it gives us the motivation to endure it.

This is an important point. When you talk about the glory, you know, you're talking about positive things. And when you invoke Martin Luther King, you know, what was such a turning point in America is when he talked about an affirmative vision of the future, a vision that we wanted to live in. And it was not about living without, it was about living with. It was not about ending something, but starting something, you know.

I have a dream that one day little black children will play on the playground with little white children, which we could see that and we wanted that vision. We still want that vision.

And when we talk about ending police brutality, for example, that is one of the complicated steps along the way. But the glory is affirmative, not negative. It's not about ending something or stopping something. It's about getting to something that's beautiful. And that's what you're talking about, right? Exactly. That's what kept you going in that game. It's what keeps you going in your life. It's what helps you endure pain and suffering, which is you take these steps to go towards something glorious.

not to end something painful. Yeah, the one thing I think that we all just have to accept is that pain is a part of life. And, you know, I always say that pain is just a part of the process for you to get to where you're going. And what I've often found is that pain is literally an opportunity to upgrade. And if we can just...

deal with the pain. You know, in my gym, I have this sign up that says all pain is temporary. You know, pain doesn't last forever, but a lot of times when we're in the midst of pain, it can feel like it lasts forever. And that's what discourages us. But I hope that

what I'm able to pass down to my kids and to my sphere, the people around me, is how to challenge the pain that we face. Every time I talk to you, you give me a new perspective on how to view my life and how to understand how we get through things. Yeah, yeah. Well, like I say, the feeling's mutual, man. And, you know, your book on and your teaching on finding your why

has been so instrumental in my life because I've never been able to articulate it that way. But when I talk about that vision that's on the other side of the cross, that's your why, you know, and that's what has kept me going. For instance, the whole story behind my career is that I never wanted to play football. And it was during my senior year when my best friend

My childhood best friend was killed and he was the quarterback of the team, which basically inspired me to play football. And even when I got drafted, when they called me and Bill Parcell said, would you like to be a New England Patriot? And I told him yes. And as soon as I hung up the phone, I told everyone else who was at my house that I really didn't want to play. And it was this...

guy there. His name was Pastor LeVoy Joseph. And he said to me, he said, well, Curtis, maybe football is just the vehicle that God has given you to do all those wonderful things you say you want to do in our community and around the world. And it was that that helped me to lock into football.

and work as hard as I possibly could to make the most of it. Because in my mind, every yard I gained, every touchdown I scored, it just opened up more doors for me to reach more people. And so all the pain that you endure and I endured during my NFL career,

It was always with that why in the back of my mind that, okay, I'm gonna be able to change and help other people's lives by making it through this pain and being successful. - Curtis, it was tragedy that inspired you to become a football player. It was what you could do, the glory that you saw by working hard and enduring pain for others.

And I think we're in the same place as a society, as a nation. It's tragedy that has called us to do something unbelievably difficult. Yeah. That's going to require a lot of hard work and there will be pain, but it's about, it's about getting back to huddle. It's about keeping going. It's about enduring and taking steps and taking the steps and

and working together. Exactly. I was about to say, we all have a part to play. You know, just one last story, Simon. One of my greatest accomplishments in my life beyond Hall of Fame and Super Bowl and all that, any contracts, whatever, any material thing, none of that, nothing compared to me helping and somewhat nurturing my own mother to get to the place where she could forgive my father.

You know, he left when I was five years old. And I remember when I was 27, 22 years later, my mother and I were riding through our old neighborhood. And we saw my father standing at the bus stop. And I said, Mom, look, there go my dad. And she says, what you telling me for? So what?

I said, well, I bet you he's going home. I mean, why don't we give him a ride? And Simon, I mean, she really lit into me, cursed me out. I'm not giving that mother effer a ride nowhere. F that. And where in the F you think you get off telling me to get after all he did to us? And, you know, she goes into all that for, you know, 30 seconds or so. And I said to her, I said, mom, listen, I just got to say something. You know, I never talked back to you. I've always respected you.

I said, "But you are the angriest, bitterest person I know. And you've been like that since I was a kid." I was like, "You've never really shown me love. I just know that you love me."

But you've never showed me love by kissing me on my forehead or telling me that you love me. That just wasn't a part of our conversation in our household. And I believe it's because you're so bitter. And I believe you're so bitter because of that man standing right there at the bus stop that you need to give a ride and you need to forgive so that you can release yourself. Because, mom, I don't think that I've really met the mother that I was supposed to have all my life. And I'm still not.

experiencing that mother simply because of that man who left 22 years ago. And Simon, my mother, the light turns green and she drives through the light and pulls over on the other side of the street and she says, you know, Kurt, I asked your father if he needs a ride. And I remember before she even did that, Simon, I think this is what really made it click for her. I said, Mom,

Just think about this. You're mad at him because he left us when I was five years old. I'm 27 years old. You're still as mad as the day that he left. I said, now think about it this way. Do you think that we would experience the life that we experience now? Do you think that I would be the man that I am today if he was there as my example all those years?

Simon, I really believe that that's what it just clicked to her. I heard this saying one time that said these psychologists and psychiatrists, they were trying to figure out why people become bitter in life. And what they discovered after all their study was that people don't become bitter because of what they experience in life, but they become bitter because of how they remember what they experienced in life.

And so I realized that my mother, the only memory she had of that was how my father left us and the condition that he left us in. She never even thought about, wow, what if he was there? He would have been my son's example all these years. And my son probably wouldn't have turned out the way he did. So she gives him a ride. They have a conversation. I let him sit in the front seat. I get in the back seat. We get to his house.

And he walks up the steps and shuts his door and goes in. And my mother turns around to me and just starts bawling her eyes out.

And I never seen my mother really cry that hard. And she said, "Kurt, I feel like I just dropped off a whole load of bricks. Thank you so much for pushing me to give your father a ride." And Simon, from that moment on, my father and my mother began to develop a relationship to where when he was on his deathbed and came down with stage four cancer,

She was cooking him food. She was taking him to his doctor's appointment. She was picking up his medicine. And they had a beautiful relationship before he passed. And coming out of his funeral, she held my hand and just told me, she said, Kurt, I don't know what I would have done if your father had died and never knew that I forgave him. And she thanked me.

Curtis, thank you so much. I say again, you are like a monk to me, you know, you're a spiritual advisor to me and your perspective, your stories. I'm just, I'm just grateful. I appreciate your time. I appreciate everything you do. Glad, glad you're in my life. Really am. Well, likewise, man. And thanks for having me today. I enjoyed it. Appreciate it. Thank you. I encourage everyone who listened to please call your friends and have some of those uncomfortable conversations.

and have some comforting ones too. We all need to figure out how we can help each other work through fear and pain. Now more than ever, take care of yourself, take care of each other.

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