Haliburton's Touchdown, The Zion Dilemma & Closest MVP Races In NBA History
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Good morning, sweet world, and welcome to the No Dunks Podcast on The Athletic Network. It's Wednesday, March 12th, 2025. I'm J.E. Skeets here in the Classic Factory and alongside me, as always, Tass Mellis. Podcast listeners, this is for you. Next to him, it's the bearded one, my top shot hot boy, Trey Kirby.

Ayo! And over yonder, making the magic happen, Super Producer JD. Hello. There he is. Here we are. Hello to everybody on YouTube. Hit the like button, subscribe. Podcast listeners, we love you too. God, you know what? We might love you more.

Leave us a five-star rating interview. Well, pit them against each other. I know, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got to get those likes and get those five-star ratings going head-to-head. Let's do it. This is fun. In Atlanta later this month, we are doing a live show.

Actually, it's a live podcast pizza party with Tabasco, our good friends at Tabasco at the Seven Stages Theater here in Atlanta. That's in Little Five, for those in the know. March 27th, 7 p.m. Eastern. Tickets still on sale. We'll be telling you about these tickets until they're sold out.

for the next week or two. So go get one for you and a friend. Come catch us live if you haven't bought one already. I was getting excited last night. There you go. Going to bed, thinking about the live podcast pizza party with Tabasco brand. It's going to be spicy for sure. I think we're going to have giveaways. I was starting to think about Atlanta-based up-down stuff to talk about. Nice. I was excited.

That's funny you said that. Nora's like, what are you guys going to be doing? I was like, we've got a couple fun things in store. And I imagine TK will start working on an up-down report. That's right. So there you go. Perfect. I mean, pollen season's coming? Up or down? Big thumbs up. Love my black car covered in yellow dust every morning. I thought it was just an LPPP podcast beat. Sorry, but throwing some pollen.

We're giving away pollen at the live show. A little bag of pollen for everyone that comes out. All right. So anyway, go get your tickets. That link is in the show notes, both here on YouTube and obviously you podcast listeners. Okay. Is that why you're wearing yellow? This was actually a gray shirt when I went outside this morning. Good one. Good one. Only four games on last night, but some entertaining games. Obviously the game of the night.

was that Pacers-Bucks game. Pacers needing a three-pointer to tie the Bucks in the closing seconds. They had a streaking Tyrese Halliburton taking a little handoff-style inbound pass along the left sideline. He elevates while he's fading into the corner over Giannis, and he buries the three. Foul called because they said, hey, Giannis, you didn't let the guy land. Interesting call, sort of a tough one there with what was going on. But what a shot. He makes the free throw.

Stunning four-point play. Pacers hold on for the win after Giannis misses a three in transition there. We got a football play to end the game. Oh, we did. And that wasn't cool. Blue 22! Yeah. Blue 22! That is a good one. Oh, yeah. Well, actually, I turned up the volume to hear what Andrew Nembhard said as he inbounded. He did start it with the blue 32! Blue 32! Oh, seriously? But then he went to 4-0! To 4-0! Hut, hut, hut!

Oh, De'Amerzio Taliburn. You got a nice cadence, man. Tyrese Haliburn streaking in front. For some reason, the Bucs...

Torian Prist decided, I'm going to switch. Although Doc Rivers said afterwards, we had a plan for this. He was not supposed to switch because nobody else switched, so he was open to catch the ball. That being said, Giannis was right there. It was a tough shot for him. It's an insane shot. The leaner. Over anyone, but especially someone as tall and lengthy as Giannis challenging the shot. Yeah. It's...

I can't believe, looking back, that they ran the exact same thing against the Boston Celtics in the playoffs with Andrew Dembhard getting it in to Aaron Neesmith. He missed it to tie the Boston Celtics, but the exact same score ended up happening. Pretty cool. And yeah, that was just a wild shot. I guess you have to call that. It was odd to hear that the Bucs challenged it because they thought he stepped out of bounds. And Doc used his timeout

to challenge it, and then he didn't have a timeout for the play to get Giannis to come up and shoot that. Could have advanced the ball. Yeah, exactly. With three seconds, actually, a decent amount of time to actually run something. They miss out on that. Yeah.

Yeah, not great for docking the Bucs here on this final play. Hell of a shot, though, from Halliburton. Hell of a play call with the spread offense football play that they've run a couple of times before, a handful of times. Yeah, and a good thing it worked this time because how are you going to do it again? Because now every time they see it, we're like, okay, we know this one. But also really hard to keep up with. Like, the Bucs were just totally confused on are we switching, are we dropping? Like, Giannis, kind of a good play to even get near Halliburton because he was just running free out there. It was amazing having Reggie Miller on the call. Yeah.

Seeing a four-point play to win the game, that was very Reggie Miller-esque. Also, I suppose, a little Reggie Wayne-esque for all those Colts fans out there. But yeah, that was really, really cool. And honestly, I thought that the Pacers were cooked twice in this game. Like probably, I don't know, 40 seconds left.

Halliburton jump pass to Nembhard. Wide open look from the left wing. Barely misses it. Rattles in and out. They get the ball back on the same play. Get the offensive rebound. Another look from the exact same spot for Nembhard. Maybe a step back. Left that one short. So the Bucs are up two with the ball. They run a pick and roll with Damon Giannis. Giannis looks like he's got a wide open lane. It's Aaron Neesmith standing underneath the basket. And he kicked it out.

to Brooke Lopez who swung it to the corner to Gary Trent Jr. who missed the three from the corner I thought Giannis should have went to the hoop on that one he didn't take a shot until that runner right at the end there on the other end Nembhard goes to the line obviously still in his head missing those two threes misses the first free throw uh-oh this isn't good yep then they're talking all right he's gotta miss this one so they can get a rebound and try and get a three-pointer up he makes the free throw so I'm like okay this one's over

Nope. There was enough time left after the Bucs inbound the ball. Dame hits a couple of free throws. And then just a beautiful play from Father Rick Carlisle. That guy was looking straight up on the sidelines last night at the white ball.

In the white high zip-up Pacers thing with his bald head, man. I hope he wins at the next conclave. But that was a fun game to watch. Oh, yeah. 21 lead changes, 22 ties. These teams have played each other a lot over the last... I mean, really, two seasons now. They got another one coming up this weekend. Yes. But they played, what, 11 times last season? Because they played five times because they had an NBA Cup game. And then they played six times in the playoffs. And obviously a couple more this season. So always fun games.

The brilliance of that spread offense football-like play, four verticals I believe it's called, is it does take away the defense's ability really to foul and push you to the line because you're up three, right? You could play the foul game. Like, hey, just foul him. But...

It almost makes it impossible because they're screaming up the floor. And if you make the pass correctly, it's like, oh, now you're like, they're likely shooting it in motion. So hell of a play. What a shot. That does make it a little tougher because they are shooting it in motion. So it's a hard shot. Yeah, absolutely. The difficulty is huge. Brook Lopez guarding the inbounder can just turn away and just guard at the three-point line because they need a three just to be out there.

Well, yeah, the Bucs are also, look where they're lined up. I mean, they're over half court. It's like you don't really need to be up there. That's far. Right? So now you're literally trying to play defense as if you're playing a football game where you probably could just, you could just park all around the three-point line, maybe a foot out and sort of just try and take that away. Give up the two is the other part. Just let them go to the basket. Yeah, the Torian Prince deciding we're switching, nobody else paying attention, everybody else galloping with their guy. That was...

That was odd to see that whole thing. You mentioned the Giannis thing where he passed out to Brooke and then got it to the corner there. Him and Dame only took three shots combined in the fourth quarter. That was the odd part. This was a Torrey and Prince game, it felt like. Prince took two more shots than Giannis

period in the whole game. And you would say, well, maybe Giannis went to the free throw line. Now that didn't happen a lot in this game. So it wasn't that, that part was just a little odd to me. Now, obviously we can just parse so many things in this game. They could have just went and won that thing in the end of it, but they lost the fast break 31 to three and the turnovers were just bad 15 to nine. And this one, I had hope that the Milwaukee bucks would be able to catch the New York Knicks after Jalen Brunson's injury.

Since Jalen Brunson's injury, the Bucs have lost three in a row, and that ain't happening now. They're just not catching the Knicks for third. It is just a wild race here for 4-5-6 that we'll get into a little bit later.

Bucs have a super tough part of their schedule coming up too. Tough opponents, long road trip out west against really good teams. Very hard. Really good teams. Some teams fighting for their play in life. So it's, yeah, they got a tough stretch. Lakers, Pacers, OKC the next three. That's tough. And then out for Golden State, Lakers, Kings, Suns, and Nuggets on a five-game trip. When you're one of the best teams in the league with one of the most famous players like Giannis is, we're seeing the same thing with like the Suns the second half of the season, the Lakers the second half of the season. You get back-loaded schedules.

So you have to play really, really tough teams because the NBA says there's no football.

We've got all the eyes. Let's put the best players against each other. But then it leads to situations like this where every game seems like a tough game for you. It's happening with the Nuggets as well, right? Like these guys just have crazy schedules because it's primetime in the NBA right now. The Bucs just made too many mistakes in this game. 15 turnovers allowed the Pacers to get into their fast break game, and that's where they want to play. They kind of played into Indiana's hands all night, it seemed like. Yeah. Eric Name.

Bucs athletic beat writer. He was on the NBA Daily this morning and he sort of blew my mind. He was talking about the Bucs being very average offensively. They're middle of the pack in the NBA. I think maybe 13th, 14th, 15th offensive rating.

Which is strange when you consider they have Giannis scoring 31 points per game. They have Dame scoring 25 points per game. Both of those guys having one, if not their best, efficient seasons of all time in Giannis' case. And Dame, this is like, I don't know, second or third most efficient season for him. They hit a ton of threes. They're the third best three-point shooting team from deep in the league.

You add that all up, and you're like, yeah, this has got to be easily a top 10 offense, maybe top five, and it's not. And I was like, wow, that is perplexing because defensively, they're somehow better than they are offensively despite all those stats I just hit you with. Eric Name was cooking. Yeah. He was really good on the daily today. I thought he made a great point on how long it takes for the Bucs to get into a lot of their offense, and then it goes like,

They're never getting the ball across half court until there's 18 seconds left. So you've wasted whatever, a quarter of the shot clock already. Then a lot of times it goes into a Brooke Lopez post up. It's like, okay, that ain't happening very quickly. That guy hit a million push shots. It seemed like last night, zero jumps on him, but, uh,

it just doesn't seem like the most efficient use of what's going on for the Bucs. It still feels like Dame and Giannis can make each other a little bit better and they should elevate the team as well. But they are better defensively, I guess, since Doc came on for Adrian Griffin last year. I don't know.

The Bucs, they've had some nice wins. They've had some bad losses as well. I think when we did our tiers, we had them not quite to the final four flirts. Right. Seems okay. Yeah. They're going to be a weird one though, right? Where it's like, they could lose in the first round. Sure. I could see it, but you know, they could make a hell of a run to maybe get some injury luck on their side this year. And you obviously have two great players. Damian Lillard's clutch as anyone in NBA history when you get into playoff games.

And you could see, like, eh, I could squint and see a conference finals run, if not further. So, yeah, I don't know. It goes across the board with them. It is. It's true. I would take the Bucs in a series against the Indiana Pacers. It's easy to say that. I'm looking, zooming out with the players, but after an Indiana Pacers win, how do you say that? I think they have what it takes here in this matchup.

That being said, you can't make this many mistakes. That's what this game came down to. The points off turnovers were 23-12. Some of the Damian Lillard pocket passes were just not good passes. Sloppy. Yeah, they were sloppy. And so it's odd just seeing Giannis and Lillard not being Giannis and Lillard because you rely so much on your top two taking only three shots in that fourth quarter while Brooke came through five shots, five for five in that fourth quarter. It was monstrous. That being said...

I just said those names. Giannis and Lillard. You just have to rely on them. So it's just an odd part of this season here, I think, for the Milwaukee Bucks having lost three in a row here. It was just the fifth regular season instance of a team converting a four-point play while down three in the final 10 seconds of a game in the play-by-play era. Yeah, this is extremely rare. Play-by-play era goes back to like 97, 98. So a long, long time. This is rare that we saw that last night. Hell of a shot. Let's keep it going. Cavaliers.

Cavaliers beat the Nets 109-104. For their second 15-game win streak of the season, there's no Donovan Mitchell, there's no Evan Mobley, and it was Darius Garland time, TK, in the fourth because the Cavs were down once again, but he scored 18, he led the charge, and they come back and get the victory.

for, again, another 15-game win streak. Yeah, the Cavs care about being great, you know? I heard Dave DeFore mention on the Daily that they would have 42 wins if you just added up their three long win streaks. They got a 15, a 15, and a 12. That's pretty good. They're 55-10. It's amazing. They were down 18 in the third quarter here. It's their third double-digit comeback during this streak. They were down 22 to Boston. Obviously, they were down 18 against Portland. I think there may have been some more as well, but...

I was losing my mind clicking through all these wins for the Cleveland Cavaliers. I think you got to give... Like I've said, I think Jalen Brunson is going to win Clutch Player of the Year. But Darius Garland has had a really solid clutch season as well. And it feels like every time he plays a game without Donovan Mitchell, the Cavs have him save their hide in the fourth quarter. Like you're saying, 18 here, he had that nice floater where they somehow just caught the Nets totally napping. They were all on the wrong side of the court and...

He scored so quickly with a floater on the other end that, like, Jordy Fernandez was like, hey, just...

Did you do something illegal? And they went back and looked at it. I was watching the Nets broadcast somehow, even though it was a road game for them. And even their broadcast, Kustak, was like, no, it looks like Cam Johnson just kind of fell asleep here. So, yeah, a couple of mistakes down the stretch for the Nets, absolutely. But that's a good tank loss for them. And nice stuff for the Cavs. They really, I mean, they're the best story in the regular season all season.

said and done to be able to clinch their division on March 11th this is the fifth best start in NBA history yeah when you're 65 games in and they're still calling it a start that's pretty impressive that's a good point what a start can they can they finish 15 and 2 and win 70 games it's in play very much it might now it might get a little weird at the end of the season yeah you know they might rest a bunch of guys not that it matters at times I mean they have a pretty deep team but I

I don't think they'll get to 70, but it's insane that we're even debating that. Like, oh, good, I guess. I heard Jared Allen say he wants to play 82 games. He doesn't care about anything else. So maybe that could happen for him. This cap team is just fun to watch. It's been an incredible start to the season. Not an incredible start to this game. They weren't playing all that well. The Nets are going to beat this team. And then Darius Garland plays all 12 minutes of that fourth quarter. The first play.

brings it up, three-point shot. Next play, beautiful turnaround midrange. He's showing what he's got. That skip across the lane on Cam Johnson, that sort of Euro step way high in the lane, close to the free throw line. The guy is fantastic, and he is clutch. That's clutch stats, 58.7% in clutch. Wow. That is freaking amazing. It's better than Jalen Brunson. That being said, Jalen Brunson is the guy.

for New York, which is what Garland gains the benefit of on this team a little bit. And Brunson has shot way more shots. So I don't want to get too hard into the clutch. But that being said, it's just great to see Garland has evolved and grown. And it didn't start well when Donovan Mitchell got there in Cleveland. He was taking, you know, Garland's limelight. There was a time when Dearest Garland was going to be traded. Now he just looks damn good. He took over that fourth quarter. 10 shots, 18 points.

That was his game. He won it. This is how good Ty Jerome has been this season. I accidentally mistook him for Evan Mobley. Mobley played last night. I said Mobley didn't play. Mitchell and Mobley. I meant Mitchell and Ty Jerome. My bad. Big moment for Evan Mobley in the fourth quarter when he knocked down the Pigeon. Yes. Great mop work.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No Jerome. No DeAndre Hunter. Very important here. No Donovan Mitchell. No D'Angelo Russell. No D'Anthony Melton on the other side. Very important. No D'Anthony Melton. But Donovan Mitchell wearing that hockey jersey. The Cleveland...

Cavaliers, black and white hockey jersey, hockey sweater, as they're supposed to call it, I guess. But what I do like, he's really into the game. He was just talking and talking to his team. He's very much trying to lead this team. Every time he's in an interview, he's trying to lead his team. And...

He's trying to win. So far, so good. So far, so good. 70 wins. It's in play. Other than that thing on the score bug that we talk about where it says the difference, the diff, it's called, to do the math for you. The diff colon zero when it's a tie game. That's weird. Just get rid of it at that point. Yeah. I think you can. Yeah.

I did hear Lefkoe making fun of it a little bit during highlights. The diff. You really need it in a close game. Two. Great stuff from Donovan Mitchell. Eating his popcorn.

on the sideline, and then popcorning rookie Jalen Tyson's car afterwards. Oh, yeah? Pretty good stuff. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's like a trailer for his own prank on a rookie. Yeah. Pretty cool. These guys love each other, man. EOE. Speaking of pranks, did anybody ever watch that Anthony Davis prank show? No. That's a no from me. I haven't seen a single thing about it. Good call. That came out on All-Star Weekend. Yeah. No, I saw the promo. I haven't watched it. I haven't dipped in. Okay.

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Things got chippy early in this. We had Keyshawn George shoving Cunningham, who then shoved back before Middleton came in. He was sort of putting his hand on Cunningham's chest, and then suddenly Jordan Poole's in there shoving Jalen Duren. Everybody just pushing each other, a bunch of words exchanged, and then later in the game, Washington's Rashawn Holmes, he's ejected in the fourth quarter, throwing an elbow that

that caught Asar Thompson while he was securing a rebound. He did the old big man thing, like, I'm just going to swing here, because he had sort of two guys on him, and one of them caught Thompson. He got ejected for that. And then a few minutes later, Marcus Smart, he got assessed a flag at one foul for elbowing Tim Hardaway Jr., so...

Yeah, some sparks here between Pistons Wizards. They were fighting the first six minutes of this game. That was pretty sick. If we invited all of the Washington Wizards to our live show in Atlanta, I would say up or down on Ludacris, and they would say up because they throw them bows. But, I mean, honestly, you put Isaiah Stewart and Marcus Smart on the same court, they are going to fight. Isaiah Stewart, big-bodied.

Marcus Smart on a layup. Smart gets up. He's like, I'm not the one. I'm not the guy to be doing that to. There was the moment where Poole pushes Jalen Duren and Jalen Duren just points at him. That was amazing. Duren said at halftime, the chippiness makes us better. A lot of teams aren't ready to play the way we're playing with that energy. It's like...

Stewart, have you seen a basketball highlight of this guy? All he does is block shots and get in fights. Ron Holland, all he does is get in fights as well. Then you got Malik Beasley out there. He hits threes and then shimmies right in your face. Has to be infuriating. And honestly, the Wizards are playing with a little chip on their shoulder too since Marcus Smart came, since Chris Middleton came. Chris Middleton pushing guys around. I know. But it's like...

They're showing a little toughness here. I saw in the Raptors game, it was like at the end of the half, it was like Bub Carrington was going up to RJ Barrett, like touching his own cheek, like, here, hit me in the face if you want to. That's how chippy the Wizards are. Amazingly, these two teams play again on Thursday. That's going to be a dud.

Because they're going to be under control, but we shall see how it goes. This was fun to watch. And, man, Jalen Duren was awesome in this one as well. It felt like in the first half, every one of his plays was a massive alley-oop dunk. And Cade was just the man. They didn't really have an answer for him. He was setting the table, getting to his spots when he needed to. The calm presence, I suppose, on the Pistons. Yeah.

I didn't think Chris Middleton had that sort of fight in him, that he would be that scrappy. But I did hear Thanasa Dedekumpo, his former teammate with Milwaukee Bucks on a podcast. I don't know. It was a clip of a podcast where he said, no, he's not that chill. He's a little feisty. And he got feisty. I like seeing Keyshawn George on that side, being a little feisty as a young guy who looks very good for them as a point forward type of guy. They were lacking.

in the starting lineup, their bench came out and did fight. And Rashawn Holmes did fight and got out of there, out of the game, which was very funny. That being said, Cade was just the guy in this game. He was just masterful. They really didn't have anybody for him. That's it. Period. Detroit has a top 10 defense now on the season.

Best defense in the league over the last 15 games. So yeah, they are locking in on that end. You know, they beat the Wizards here, so let's not get too excited. But with the win and the Milwaukee loss, Pistons are now in a virtual tie here with the Bucs and the Pacers for the fourth seed. As all three teams are, I guess, 18 and a half games behind the Cavaliers in the East. But it's Milwaukee, it's Indiana, and it's Detroit. I think we have the standings there, but we are going to have Detroit hosting the Wizards again on Thursday.

like you said. So there it is. There's the Eastern Conference standings. Wow, that's crazy. Central Division's going to send five teams to the playoffs. Yes, if we count the play-in tournament. You're absolutely right. Oh, you don't think the Bulls are going to win the play-in? No. Just watch. Just watch. Okay, okay. Bulls will be back in the actual playoffs. Oh, yeah. Looking forward to that 1-8 matchup against the Cavaliers. But honestly, a fun night if you're a Midwesterner.

Yes. I would say. Like it was all, every game was on at the same time. Yeah. That was weird. Early games last night. Yeah. I would say about Detroit, they literally could go up to fourth and host a home playoff series would be amazing. I think the team that they don't want, they don't want to see Giannis in the Bucs. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a Giannis fan. I just think they don't have a matchup for him. So you think they'd prefer to play the Knicks or the Pacers? I think they would.

I think they should. That's interesting. Yeah. I'm not disagreeing with it. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have a preference of who you'd want to see? Like, just give your dream sort of like, I guess we're looking at 3-6 here and 4-5 of those, like, sort of four teams in play there. What would you like to see in the first round? I mean...

I mean, I do like Milwaukee and Indiana squaring off again. They've played, like you said, 11 times last year. They had a playoff series. Obviously Giannis was down, so things changed. But I would like to see them both full strength going against each other. So I guess that leaves 3-6. Will Knicks Detroit? New York Detroit would be...

Look, I would still probably favor New York in that matchup, but I think it would be a very good test for them to handle the physicality that the Pistons bring. I think you're right. I think you're right. It could be pretty fun. Detroit maybe stealing one in Madison Square Garden, gain one or two, and then it gets really spicy. I think I could see that.

But there it is right now. Lots of basketball still to be played. So that'll switch up as the days move on. Final game last night. Zion Williamson, triple-double to lead the Pelicans past the Clippers. 127-120. Big win for me and my Pelicans in the Nut Dust Bowl. Huge. I think I'm in the clear. I'm pretty good now. That's another good win against a team that maybe they wouldn't have expected to beat. But Zion, awesome in this game. Just awesome. He had 10 points, 5 boards, 5 assists in the fourth quarter. Now...

Shaq wasn't all that impressed. I don't know if you guys saw this clip. He wasn't all that happy with Lefkoe and Candice Parker giving some props to Zion and his triple-double last night. Shaq said, quote, you're giving him props for that? I need more. Yeah, I need more. 20? I need 26 or 27. I demand from my franchise player, you're paying the max. Don't be giving props for 20 points. Anybody can get 20 points now. End quote. That last part's probably true. Yeah.

To Shaq's credit, he's always said you got to score 32 points, eight a quarter. That's his number for whatever reason. He's brought it down to 26 or 27. But like a photo with Rick Fox, Shaq was kind of showing his ass last night. Woo!

Between this, the Detroit Pistons stuff, not great because Zion dominated the fourth quarter. Like you said, 10 points, 5-5. He had two righty dunks in half court. In one of them, he splits a double team at the three-point line, and Antonio Daniels yells, ball game! Yeah, that was awesome. He wasn't even close to the rim yet. He's like, this is going to be a dunk. Threw it down massively. But I was more impressed. Four defensive rebounds for Zion in the last two games.

Two minutes of this game, he was locked in. It wasn't just stat padding to get the rebounds. That's how you finish defensive possessions, and that's absolutely what the Pelicans needed to do, and I need a goatee Zion infographic. I don't know if it's once he grew the goatee and started looking like he was straight out of the 90s that he turned it on, but since All-Star Game, he's played nine of the Pelicans, 11 games, 24 points per game, seven rebounds, six assists, 62% true shooting. Pelicans are 5-4.

Antonio Daniels said it last night. They can beat any team when he's healthy and playing because that's how good of a player he is. Yeah, nine out of 11 games. If only he missed two games for each 10 or 11. He'd be perfect. That's all we'd want. Because he's great. The defense was the most important part. I guess Shaq wasn't really caring about that. He wants stats, baby. But defensively was the important part. And it's great to see him.

Period. I love throw him at the elbow and let him cook. I mean, get guys cutting hard like Alvarado and stuff like that. He'll find them. But then he's so explosive when he's this healthy looking and he does look great.

It's like one, two hard dribbles and he's at the rim. Everything's at the rim. We've talked about this before. Now this is the infuriating part. We've had this conversation, I feel like three different seasons now, where we have the moment where we're like, Zion, unstoppable. This is special. And then we just have to repeat an injury or two or three or whatever it is. And we're like, oh, if only he was out there. Because earlier this year,

I don't know. It felt like Zion's future in New Orleans was a little up in the air. Remember at the deadline, because of all the injuries that had obviously hit the team, they were saying there was reports like a majority of their roster was available at the trade deadline. And that included Zion, right? So...

You know, then you see him play and you're like, no way. There's no way. You can't give up on this. You just, you got to hope he stays healthy and your team stays healthy. So that's the dilemma, I guess, if you want to call it that, the rat again. But man, it's fun as hell when he's cooking. Oh yeah. He looks unstoppable. He's shooting like, yeah, like 62, 63% from the floor. That's better than Giannis. It's wild.

Yeah, and I wonder what David Griffin thinks going into next season because this is a very unique contract where the years, the final three years, become guaranteed as you go on here. Right now they're not. And so you literally could move on from him. You literally...

It's crazy. But the release, the waving Zion Williamson is an option, which is nuts. But I don't think they're going to cut him. No, I don't think they're going to cut him. But it's hard. It's hard to look at this roster, which looked good on paper before the season. Here's DeJounte Murray. Obviously, Trey Murphy has really grown as a player. He looks damn good. They could end up with the number one pick.

to add to this wild team. It would be really, really interesting. And then they have a ton of options to trade if they're going to go get a complimentary player. You know, they gave up Brandon Ingram for a first round pick with the Raptors. So they've got, you know, the even we see first round pick. There's, there's stuff to package together. Yeah.

This is going to be an interesting offseason for them. Very, very interesting. I thought their rookie center, Carlo Makovic, played pretty well last night. He was balling. He was getting really good at finding the space around the rim where someone like Zion attacks, and he flips the side to the rim, and yeah, he had a good game. He had 15 points. 15 points, a couple of blocks, hit a three. Every time he makes a play, Joel Myers, Carlo!

He only calls him Carlo. Only calls him Carlo. Probably because, just like me, I'm a little confused on the pronunciation. I probably butchered it. I thought you actually nailed it. I don't know. I thought it was Matkovich, but you said Matkovich. He probably is. I don't know. Carlo! He says Carlo all the time. I was, in fact, trying to hear him say his last name so I could maybe try and say it on the show, but he never would say it. It's just Carlo, which I sort of like. I'm just Carlo.

All right, any other thoughts on Pell's clips there? No, I think we're done. Okay. I'm just looking up Zion Williamson's contract. When those years become guaranteed. He's too good to trade. It's just such an odd scenario. Again, again. He's a franchise player, but...

He's a franchise player that plays, you know, you're hoping at this point for half a season, it feels like, and you don't even get that. Is he going to get another tattoo this off season? Like he did last. Oh, he just got one around his belly button. I did not see that. He's got like an anime tattoo around his belly. Naruto? Is that what it is? I got no idea. Matt,

Karlo, he's got a Karlo circle around his belly button. Tattoo around the belly button. That's a... JD, you must hate that. We know you don't like belly buttons. So a tattoo around it really draws your eye to it. Please stop talking about it. Yeah? Makes you gross? Well, yeah, it grosses me out. And, like, the needle inside the belly button, like, to fill in the... Do they do that? Well, I don't think it's inside the belly button. I don't know. I think it's just around it. But...

Reggie Miller's the guy that has like a belly button tattoo, I think as well. I'm sorry. That is a strange tattoo to me.

Which one? The Reggie Miller one? I don't know that one. That's like a tramp stamp for a guy. 100%. Doing a tattoo around your belly button. Yeah. That's my opinion on it. Never get fat. Like, you just can't. Maybe that's the incentive for a try-on. Maybe I should get one. Maybe David Griffin was like, you need a belly button tattoo, so that way you keep your fit. Sort of look at it, if it expands. Like, if the sun gets bigger, then you know what you're... Yeah. Get back in the gym. Maybe. Maybe.

Alright, that's last night's game, so only four on. Sunday-Monday split between the Nuggets and the Thunder also felt like a bit of a draw between Jokic and SGA in the battle for MVP. Feels like we're on our way, hopefully, fingers crossed, to one of the tightest MVP races in recent seasons. But whether it turns out that way will be decided. Lots of basketball still left. But it did get me thinking...

What are the closest MVP races in NBA history? So let's hit that top five sting. Yeah, trip down memory lane for the top five closest MVP races in NBA history. All right. At number five, we go to 2001-2002, and we're talking Tim Duncan and Jason Kidd.

Duncan led the Spurs to the second best record in the NBA. They were 58-24. The Kings had 61 wins that year. While Kidd led the New Jersey Nets, not Brooklyn, to the best record in the East. They had a 52-30 record. Duncan won the award by 57 total votes over Kidd, capturing the first of his two straight MVPs. Duncan averaged a cool 26, 13, 2.5 blocks. Played

played all 82 games. Remember when your NBA stars played all 82 games? I remember that. Duncan did. So did Jason Kidd. Now, he averaged 15 points, 7 boards, 10 assists. So those counting stats, they maybe don't blow you away. I mean, he basically was getting close to a triple-double, but the scoring. But big reason why he was in the MVP conversation was he basically flipped the Nets record after joining them.

season prior nets were 26 and 56 so in the 2000 2001 season kid joins them they don't change their coach it's still byron scott kids there as the floor general and they win 52 i mean that's like basically flipping the record on ted so he was instrumental in that but duncan duncan eked them out there uh for one of our closest races yeah this sounds like um

Very similar to Steve Nash stealing one of Shaquille O'Neal's MVPs. We'll get to that one. But it went the other way. Yeah. Right, because that's the narrative case for Jason Kidd, who's become underrated as a player. Just kind of a forgotten great. The guy was amazing because, you're right, the counting stats are good enough.

but not incredible. I mean, the assist numbers are really good, but he was also one of the best defensive guards out there, but this was definitely the ace and kid era. 39% from the field, 32 from three. But yeah, Duncan is the man. I went through a little Tim Duncan rabbit hole the other day. Just happened to go down it.

Because I was thinking about blocks and how Tim Duncan is top five all-time in blocks. And he's the first best, or sorry, number one in playoff blocks. Period. All-time. And he never won a defensive player of the year. That's weird. That's crazy. He was like a 15-time all-defensive player or something insane.

So he's always in the mix. He never won it. Yeah. So he didn't just squeak, squeak, went up. Yeah. But he got a couple of MVPs. All right. Next one here. Number four on our list. We're going to 1998, 99. We got three-way race. Carl Malone, Alonzo Mourning.

And Tim Duncan. Duncan's name coming up here again. This was a very odd season because it started late. This was the only 50-game season after the lockout, and then they got going. So it's a strange one, right? But Malone beat out Zoe by 54 total votes and Duncan by 87. Malone had 44 of the 118 first-place votes. Zoe had 36, and Tim Duncan had 30.

So all three of those guys getting over 30 plus first place votes for MVP. The Mailman averaged 24, 9, and 4 over 49 games. Jazz finished 37 and 13. Really good record. They were tied with the Spurs for the best record in the NBA. I thought what was interesting about this, this was Zoe's best overall season.

His best chance at winning MVP, at least. But it wasn't all for naught. He did get Defensive Player of the Year. I think he averaged nearly four blocks per game this season. That was Zoe's first of two Defensive Player of the Year trophies in 98-99. And Duncan, I mean, this guy was in his second NBA season.

So he would have to wait until that 0-1-0-2 for his first MVP, but in the conversation, just like that. I know he was a four-year player at Wake Forest, so he came in ready and obviously has the size and all that. Good teams. Yeah, and good teams. That's a good point. But anyway, fun race here. But Carl got it. Not Carlo. Carl! Carl over Zoe and Duncan. And Tim Duncan played in all those 50 games again. Although Carl...

He got close with 49. Yeah, he missed one. Yeah, but he had a wild career in terms of games played. Carl just didn't miss games. What, he missed like 10 total before, I guess, Lakers days? Yeah, literally three, four. I'm counting now. Five, six, seven, nine, ten. Yeah, ten. Oh, wow. Ten. If I'm doing the math right, it's a guy. He missed ten games.

From his entire stint with the Jazz. In the first 18 years of his career. Oh, crap. That's what the basketball reference says. Oh, man. Why did he miss a game here? Yeah, why did he miss that game? In the shortened season of all seasons. Suspended. There you go. There you go. There you go. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.

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I play Wordle and Spelling Bee every single day. That's the first thing I do. Play Wordle while making coffee. I pour myself a cup and do the crossword, which is the jewel of my morning. What's our starting word today? I think it should be ocean. I have seen you do Spelling Bee during meetings. The New York Times crossword is a moment of Zen that cleanses my brain. I wish the days were shorter and the Wordles were longer.

Join us and play all New York Times games at nytimes.com slash games. Subscribe by March 16th to get a special offer. All right, number three on our list.

You already brought it up, TK. 2004-2005. Steve Nash and Shaquille O'Neal. This race was a fun one because it featured two players who joined a new team in the offseason. Nash returned to the Suns, the franchise that originally drafted him. Shaq traded to the Miami Heat, so that's his first year there. Nash finished the season averaging 15.5 points per game and 11.5 assists. He beat out Shaq, who

who still averaged 23-10 in Miami by just seven first place votes and 34 total votes. Very, very close. Nash led Phoenix to 62 wins. Shaq led the Heat to best record in the East. 59 wins. Pretty close. I didn't really realize it was that close. I knew the Suns won a ton. Heat nearly won 60. Interesting note here. Maybe played a part in Nash winning it.

If you look at the end of the season, Shaq didn't play in five of the Heat's last eight games. He sort of put it on cruise control, getting ready for the playoffs. While Nash played, he averaged like 12 and 10 in the 10 games in April where the Suns like ripped off a bunch of wins. I think they went eight. They went eight of those 10, helped them get over 60 wins.

you know, maybe that had some impact on it. Cause again, Shaq was sort of like, ah, I'll worry about the playoffs Nash and them. Obviously the seven seconds or less. They're like, yeah, still gunning for a lot of victories, but close one. And this was, uh, you know, one that we all vividly remember. And this one that's like Shaq is still pissed about to this day. Yeah. I mean, he only brings it up every time he sees Steve Nash. God, that'd be annoying. Yeah. It's my favorite part is that Shaq is still pissed.

Still salty. He's just stuck in his craw. He's just mad. It is interesting when you go look back at Shaq's days pre-Miami and how much those numbers are better than the Miami numbers just because there was so much on his shoulders in L.A. and it was a little different. He was getting old, but he's still mad. He's still mad. I love it. Other first place votes went to Iverson. He got two. Duncan got one. And Amari Stoudemire.

got a first place vote.

When, obviously, his teammate Nash goes on to win the thing. I think this helped Nash out in winning it, too. There was a stretch during the Suns' season where Nash missed almost like four games. He had a thigh bruise and he had his back spasms, which obviously would sort of impact him as his career went on. But the Suns dropped all four of those games without Steve Nash. And they averaged like 86 points in those games. Like, their offense was Nash, right? Oh, yeah. And Amari...

who was like shooting like 58, 59% with Nash, uh,

he shot 37.8% during that stretch. Yeah. So again, it was like, it was that, that he was the engine Steve Nash and obviously helped these other guys play at elite levels. But yeah, I just thought it was interesting that Amari did get one first place vote. Yeah. That was a sick team. Oh, four or five sons. Like, I mean, Steve Nash had a great season, turned the team around, but I think this is a largely narrative based award, you know, the bump and wins and also a

beloved team like they're up there for one of the coolest teams of the 2000s up with like the o2 kings the 15 warriors you know like teams that everybody's like whoa this is new and it's awesome yeah and it kind of helped usher in a new era in the nba absolutely yep yep number two on our list we go back to carl 96 97 carl malone and michael jordan

Carl Malone captures the first of his two career MVP awards. He beats out Jordan by 29 votes. So this is the second closest in NBA history. Malone did his thing. He averaged 27-10, 4.5 assists. The Jazz went 64-18. Meanwhile, Michael Jordan led the league in scoring under 30 points per game. Gasp! Maybe it was a bad Michael year. 29.6 points. He added 6 boards, 4.3 assists, 1.7 steals. And the Bulls went...

69-13. Down year. It was a down year. This is the classic. People were just comparing Jordan's season and the Bulls' season to the year prior when they went 72-10. And Jordan had even a better year scoring-wise and all that. So they just gave it to Carl. Now, the good thing voters got right is at least it was just between these two guys. They were voting for Carl or MJ. Nobody else got a first-place vote. Malone got 63 first-place votes. MJ got 52 votes.

Despite losing out on the MVP race, MJ and the Bulls got the last laugh beating Carl and the Jazz in the finals. So there is that. But TK, as a Bulls fan, do you remember? Were you pissed off as a young child that Carl stole one from MJ? It was the first time I was angry as a 13-year-old, probably. Every time Michael Jordan didn't win the MVP was a thievery. Carl...

Shouldn't have got one when Jordan was in his prime. Charles Barkley shouldn't have got one when Jordan was in his prime. But like you said, he got the last laugh both times. Yeah. Any thoughts on this? Anything to add? Nah, I guess voters are just tired of this guy leading the league in scoring again. Gotta give it to Carl. And it really feels like it was like they were just comparing it to the season prior. Like, well, they didn't win as many games.

Yeah, they won 69 games. They still won five more games than the Jazz. That part makes me laugh. It's like, when you see Carl Malone's averages, you're like, that's awesome. Holy crap, they won how many games? 64? That's amazing. That's a really... That's like an elite season. You're flirting with 65 wins. So I'm thinking, like...

Because I couldn't remember. I'm like, oh, maybe the Bulls had, like, maybe they only won, like, you know, 60 that year. And you're like, you see 69, and it's like, what? Wait a second. That's tied for the second most wins of all time at the time. It's insane. It's insane. So anyway, like you said, he got the last laugh there in the finals. And it was a close race. Final one also involves, excuse me, Michael Jordan. It's 89-90.

but MJ finishing a distant third here, I guess. 89-90, it's Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, and Michael Jordan.

Closest race in MVP history. It's also a weird one because despite finishing with 11 more first place votes than the eventual winner, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley became the first and only player in history to not win the MVP award. So he finished second despite having the most first place votes. That's got to be strange feeling. He ended up 22 total votes behind Magic Johnson. Jordan finished third in voting. He was 72 votes back.

Barkley led the Sixers to one of the best records in the East. They were 53-29. Pistons and Bulls did have more wins in the East. His stats were great, Chuck. You know, 25 points per game, 11.5 rebounds. But despite this, voters believe Magic deserved it. Another one. I think this was his third and final MVP award. He averaged 22 and 11.5 assists per game. I think he was helped out in the narrative of the MVP race with, hey, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's gone. He's retired.

And Magic is still leading this team to 63 wins. So that played a part. You had a great team still. I mean, you know, you take out Kareem, they were still elite. So that's why you got it done. MJ averaged a cool 33.6 points, seven boards, six assists on a 55 win team. Anyway, a weird one where Magic got his third and final MVP, despite Chuck having more first place votes.

Right. This is a fun memory lane, though. Just these guys, these names, period. Going through it and to see that it was, yeah, that was the end of the elite, elite, elite, elite Magic, but he was still good the following year as well. Yeah, went to the finals. Yeah, it wasn't the same Magic, just everything he had personally, but a fun time. We had four other big guys receiving first place votes, too, despite those three guys leading the way. Karl Malone.

Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, and Akeem Olajuwon. Those seven names, man, right there. That's the late 80s, early 90s NBA for you. Yep, and way down at the bottom, tied for 13th in MVP voting, Joe Dumars and Isaiah Thomas, who would win the back-to-back championships that year. Yeah, great point. Another underrated guy. Great, great point. So there it is. That was the closest when you're looking at total votes. Magic just eking it out.

over Charles Barkley despite Barkley having more first place votes. Crazy, crazy. So huge shout out to Gimme Sport for helping take me down this trip down memory lane and of course Basketball Reference compiling all the stats. What a website. I love that website. It's the best. Stat head. And you said you can just fall down rabbit holes. Oh yeah. That's easy. So, so good. All right, let's get to the pick'em for tonight, Tass. Let's go.

I got lucky last night. Holy crap. I had the Pacers. I was forced to take the Pacers. They weren't going to cover. They were down three. If Halliburton misses, you guys win. But he hits it.

They, of course, cover it because they win. So another victory for me. Money lined him. Money lined him again. I'm on fire, baby. I can't lose even when I think I'm losing. Potential finals preview tonight. Had to go with OKC visiting Boston. Boston favored by three and a half. So I start to think OKC's got to bounce back after that Nuggets loss. That being said. Jalen Williams definitely out.

He's out with a hip injury, so that's a part of it. That's a part of it. On the Boston side, Jason Tate was questionable. He may play knee injury. And this is the second time they do play here. OKC took care of business in the first one by double digits in Oklahoma City. This one going, obviously, to Boston. National TV game. Oh, yeah. A very, very good sked tonight, I would say. But all three of you taking Boston. Excuse me. Three of us taking Boston and Trey taking OKC.

A lot of three-on-ones this week, huh? There are tons. I was torn on this one. I went back and forth in the docs this morning. I was like, I don't know. Yeah, is Tatum playing? I think Jalen Brown's questionable, too. He's probable. He's probable. He's got to play. We're just at the point of the season it feels like every guy is questionable or probable or something. But then, yeah, no J-Dub. I think they're a different team without him. I think he's that important. So I guess that's why I'm going Boston. But you're swerving. Why not?

Hey, man, I'll take the points. That's true. True, true, true. I heard OKC has a deep team. They do. All right, that's our pick-up tonight. That should be a great game. Good overall schedule, is it? Yeah. Minnesota-Denver, the second game of that ESPN doubleheader. So we start there. I like that. Sixers-Raptors? Of course. Oh, big game when you're looking at Tankathon.

Who's going to try and punt that one? Dallas San Antonio, we just saw that game. Hornets-Hawks, the local rivalry, of course. Yep, yep. Dallas San Antonio. The birds in the bees. The birds in the bees. Yeah. Sex ed. Yeah, it was sexier when I saw the doubleheader. It's a solid doubleheader. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Minnesota-Denver is good. I agree with you. New York-Portland? New York needs a win? They do. Portland's scrappy. Very scrappy. All right. Well, we'll be back here tomorrow to talk about them. Might hit the beach, so keep getting your questions in. NoDunksAtTheAthletic.com. Tweet them in at NoDunksInc. Leave them in the YouTube comments. And otherwise, we'll see you here at 10 a.m. Eastern. Can't wait.

Tell that Clifford Rose. You heard it here first. Have a great time. Turn up. Love you guys. Awesome. Thanks for joining us. And remember, everyone's got injuries at this point of the season. That's what Nikola Jokic said. What Michael Malone said. Why don't you sit out this second game of the OKC doubleheader? He said, you're injured. You're injured. Your arm. He said, nah. Everybody's injured. Everybody's injured. Had a great game. Brace the day, people.