The Harvard Endowment Is on the Verge of Losing Its Crown
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Hello, and welcome to another episode of the allots podcast time. Geo went though.

and i'm Tracy all away.

Tracy? We talk about investing all the time on the show. We talk about private credit, we talk about hedge funds, we talk about the market itself. But you know, there are like a few of these gigantic institutional players out there. One of them is insurance that like just don't get a .

lot of attention, these huge poles of capital. Yeah, you're right.

So you know, we've talked about we want to talk about insurance more. Should I tell about family offices more to like that? This whole world that I don't think we've ever really explored, but just this massive and bombing source of capital like what the deal is with those?

Yeah, I remember right around the time that I left hong kong that was such a big story, especially in singapore, everyone opening family offices. But there's another category of massive pools of capital that we need to talk .

about ability. And that one, of course, is endowments. They're huge and they have you know, they're distinct. They're distinct from banks. They're distinct from insurance companies. They have their own funding needs and their own funding profiles and the schedules with which they need to withdraw and disperse their money. And if you're hedge fund or if you're anyone else looking for money for your investment at the end of the line, there is a good chance that like at some point, you're going to be knocking on the door of a really big and delmon.

yeah. So i'm really interested in kind of how that became a thing because, of course, university endowments nowaday are known for making investments in things like private equity and hedge funds yeah stuff like that. And i'm curious how all of that began and then obviously how it's been working out.

So you know what another cool thing trace is at least when I come to university and dominance um I believe the endowment of my oma motor university.

texas is I knew that was .

yeah ah is on the verge of becoming the biggest university and in the country right?

So for years harvard was the biggest right. But IT looks like my be superseded by joes college. congratulations.

Je, thank you. Have you've been donating? Is this all you?

Because I I don't i've never donated theyve so much money already. They don't need my donation I provide. And I want to talk about how I avoid the calls for my university .

and I don't I feel little bad about that. I think in this case will get into why.

but maybe it's OK and even talk about how big ut is versus I think there's actually like twenty two universities or something served by the taxi is now. And another thing, so I don't even even know if is true apples to apples comparison because you know the student blot of texas.

So you are going nonetheless, if we're just looking at, okay, which university endowment is the biggest, at least current, there's a very good chance that looks like the texas could eclipse harvard on that front. So we got to understand what's going on more in done world. And then the other day is not just the grown and that's great.

And I love to see IT, but that hove's performance has been a little bit mediocre in recent years even compared to just other ivies, the rest of which um sort of smaller. The yellow endowment is sort of famous actually not necessarily do to its size because but because of its long time managers approach to endowment in investing. So we got to learn more about what's going on with harvard and what's how these big institutional pools of capital, how they're performing .

and what they are doing. Yeah, IT is kind of funny that the harvard in downtown, which presumably employs a lot of highly paid smart people, I think IT was up about nine point six percent in twenty twenty four. That's the preliminary fiscal year. But of course the S M P five hundred is ah like twenty two percent so far. So yeah, what's .

going? People love to, people love to say you can't compare this. Oh, you can't compare huge funds return to this.

You can't compare and dance funds return to be. Maybe that's true. I don't totally get why anyway should we learn more? Let's IT.

Well, i'm really excited to say we do have the perfect guest, someone here at bloomberg who i've wanted to speak to on the poddar ast for a long time. We're going to be speaking with Janet t. Laun, higher education finance reporter for blimber's anet.

Thank you so much for coming on outlets. Thanks for having me. How do you get to be the higher red finance reporter, bloom mark? And also it's like we just have one like what the deal these these institutions are so important, we pray have you know twenty people covering hedged funds. We just have a higher education finance reporter.

Well, i've been writing about university finances for almost seventeen years here, and it's not just in downtown, but I used to write a lot about student loans back when they were only about a trillion dollars in outstanding dead and college admissions and in downes. And it's just a fun job and there's a lot of money involved and there's a lot of new arms that most people have no idea about and it's i'm thrilled to talk about harvard as well as university of texas.

IT has an amazing story, 对 OK。 So talk us a little bit more about how significant the spaces, like how much money are we actually talking .

about off the top of my headed. And we we're talking about several hundred billion dollars. The universes know there aren't too many college and downes that have over a billion. Maybe it's around fifty.

I I can get you the exact number, but there certainly aren't that many the size of harvard and yell and universities taxes in harvard, I included many stories, is the oldest and richest university. You know, IT goes back to the sixteen hundreds, and harvard was actually found through a donation, and is donors alumina? Rich people in boston gave the money over hundreds of years. You know about that thing called compounding interest.

Yeah, imagine if you just pod spy and sixteen hundred, sorry.

So that has certainly helped them. But in the nineteen six college in downtown started doing something different and of having a traditional sixty forty split you with a lot of plane vanilla type U S. Equity bonds.

They pursued a different model in the ford foundation, actually presented this strategy in in schools like harvard. And yo started using IT because their time horizon is literally in the hundreds of years. So they liquidity for them is okay because you know they have a very long term horizon.

So they started um moving things into a liquid asset over time, private equity hedge funds, eventually venture capital real estate, you know now private credit. But at the time, that was a pretty new strategy. Harvard and yale did things a little bit differently.

So harvard started harvard management company, which which running in downtown is fifty result this year. They actually Operate not in cambridge, but in downtown post in in the federal reserve building is actually very close to our bloomberg office in boston. And they employed trader and I was over two hundred people working there.

They were extremely good at their job. Their strategy was literally the envy of the world. They made a ton of money. A guy by the new of jack mire e ran the fund.

And they were some outcry by a group of alarm eye in people who thought they were their manager or being paid too much because they just consistently exceeded the market. And one year there was a manager trader, more paid thirty five million dollars. And people were just against at that because they made too much money.

So after a lot of critics, a long story short, that model was dispended. Jack left in two thousand and five. They went through a succession of managers, seven CEO of the harvard management company.

Some only stayed a short term. There were two lesson, two years, several international changing strategies, selling off assets. For a while, they were begun to agriculture and real assets, those perform well, but then they didn't perform well in the current CEO has been there since to december of twenty sixteen. He eventually sold a lot of those natural resources, you know, I think writing off like a billion dollars in change of strategy, not at the greatest time. They didn't have a lot of private equity, and we've ramp set up.

Now that was a great potted history of harvard in downtown. I gotta say, jo, I started retouching. Did ever watch the go more girls?

Probably not. No.

I started with watching gillmore girls.

And so are you going?

Wow, it's all about rich people in boston, basically. And one of the main characters has to decide between harvard and you SHE eventually goes to jail. I guess he was lord by the performance of the endowment.

So just you gave us the the broad history of harvard and downs in, and I want to talk about actually like what happened in those years from like how you have one stable management company that goes all way to two thousand and five more less and then you run through. I think what do you say like seventy years since then or something? And then Tracy mentioned the ill and demand with their famous and damnit manager for several years. David swinson, can you talk about like the sort of comparing contrast between the strategic volatility and i'm I need to talk about Price volatility, but the strategic management volatility of harvard versus the ae model that I think David rode the whole book about.

So harvard management company files, attacks, return, and because they are non profit status, they have to disclose how much they pay their top people. And yale, the investment office, is part of yal university. They employ outside managers and they have a much smaller number of employees and only a handful of listed in the tax return.

And because they're using outside managers, you know you think of the two and twenty model ah that's not showing up in the tax return. Where is harvard? You know you could see how much they were getting paid in. People read that and IT was the big deal, how much they were getting paid. And that's really a simple explanation of why harvard managers got so much more.

So you talked about the criticism of, you know how much they are getting paid. What's the benchmark for harvard performance? Like what are they actually comparing themselves to?

Well, many endowments create their .

own benchmark pride.

So I don't know. You know, they come up within one of the big criticisms of harvard pay was the managers who did extremely well in their own asset class would get paid based on their own performance, not the overall performance, the endowment. So if they had a middle return, which they have some, these managers still got paid quite a lot of money.

Well, then let me ask you another question. Let's say, okay, we don't really know what the benches market is. So you wrote this piece for bloomberg a few weeks ago talking about like issues and the performance.

What does IT been? Why now? Are people saying, look. Harvard performance is not that great. There are some reason to be concerned. There's some falling off and the what they're able to generate for the universe.

Well, I think some insiders, especially you know some of their really famous academies, they know what's going on. But the last year, the performance was overshadowed by some other issues, especially the president being thrown before congress. The president resign there.

Is he at a place room, please? Um scandal. People have been very upset about how harvard has handled anti semitism.

The story had last week said their fun raising was down near their cash. Gifts was the low in fell fifteen percent. IT was the lowest since twenty fifteen year.

They famously raised a huge amount money. You know, they are known for the endowment, but they're also known for being prolific fun readers. And they did get to a billion dollars last year. But i'm sure IT wasn't easy considering people are upset when bo vot neque kenyans in both alarm said they're not giving money that theyve pauses. Their gifts are harder because the way things are going there.

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Not everybody likes talking about money. Some people find IT awkward. Sometimes they even find a little embarrassment. If I do not, I like talking about money. Mother is the order of the user of the trading flow, money, writing money and talking, writing about a little bit more a marisa at web and every week seen you're avoid john african eyes, answer your questions about permal finance and we discuss the best strategies for making the most of your money. Listen up for the guy of insight of explanations everyone can use out and make Better saving and investment choices for themselves and their families.

My question is whether you think maxing out my complete pension match is enough for when IT comes to saving form? My pension.

should I attempt to pay my child's university fees and living costs? My partner and I have access savings. So should we overpay on our mortgage or we put the money into stocks from blimber's dast to and marine talks, money pulling, money talks, money on uber, podcasts or the or whatever you listen.

So one thing i'm trying to wrap my head around is, as we've mentioned a number of times, the harvard is a huge pot of money. And i've heard people say stuff like because of its size, IT makes IT harder to move positions around. IT can't be as nimble.

But then I think, well, it's huge. So IT should be getting like the best deals. IT should have some sort of edge. So is size here a net pro or con? I think .

that's a very fair question. And harvard will say it's so big, it's hard to manage fifty three billion dollars. Now keep in mind, the size hasn't been that big ever.

They had a huge seven billion dollar gain in fiscal twenty one when everybody had a crazy year. You, some in dominance, had gains of fifty percent. Harvard was on the low end at thirty four percent.

And of course, they had a huge decrease during the financial crisis. So they've been building back back up. Now the school with the best ten year performance is Brown, and that has the smallest in downtown size. And they're definitely more nimble, but they seem to take more risk. Now there are into you ve heard maybe there are some crypto currency or there's some other risk there. And if you go back and read all the harvard alami outside the harvard financial reports, as I did, and the current CEO talks a lot about risk, key mentions more than once that harvard takes less Christ than its large peers. And you know, I still could be a vesta's from two thousand eight when they had a huge liquidity problem.

Libby has got another way of thinking about the benchmark sitting aside, what is a good return in a given year or a good return over five years? What is the importance of the harvard endowment to the harvard university budget? And because there's multiple ways of financing the university, there's tuition, there's alem n giving, there's no other grants and the stuff like that, and then there's the money that the enduring throws off. What is harvard university need from the harvard, harvard delman?

Well, the harvard and downward is the largest provider of money to university, thirty seven percent OK. And that's grown over time. Ten years ago, IT was thirty one percent. In twenty years ago, IT was twenty, twenty one percent. So in other worlds, harvard university is becoming a lot more reliant on the harvard interment.

So you mentioned this idea of investing in arts, and I think harvard was like a barker of done, in particular, a hatch fund. And i'm curious, the sales pitch from hedge funds is always uncorrelated returns. So what happened in downers for harvard, like in twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three when markets were like are sorry, in twenty twenty three when markets are falling, did they manage to post above average returns?

Um so over time in in twenty twenty three, I think they had a two point nine percent gain, which was not at among the ivy league schools. A couple of bigger downer head losses I think he was due in MIT. In MIT is a really strong in in their returns to that.

We don't so sort of use them in. There are eight schools because you know the ivy league is a sports conference, but it's also a nice group of eight schools you can easily compare. And harvard in the big year where the in twenty one they were below average in the iv league.

Now they didn't traditionally have the allocation to private equity VS that say yield did. And harvard is now thirty nine percent in private equity, but they're wrapped up really since two thousand sixteen. I'm started IT was sixteen percent maybe five years ago, six years ago, another thirty nine percent.

So they've been ramming up sort of not at the best time. And keep in mind that yale has been investing in some of these private equity firms and B, C. For years and years and years, and people really want to be yells partner.

And harvard sort of has the reputation of not being the greatest partner because it's is on the d one example. You know they they sell and they had to unload in a billion dollars worth of natural resources assets. So people claimed to be know in the yale, in the princeton, in downtown because they're seen is just amazing partners and harvard doesn't seem to have that team reputation lately.

Yeah I mean, I don't know that much about the ill and dement model, but you and I pressure read David twins book at some point all that really learn about IT. But I do get the impression that is designed to just be not set IT and forget IT, but like truly is all about that sort of all cycle portfolio, right? That really can just is designed to ultimately work across the long cycle of what s in and out.

Well, they will look at firms for years before they may make an investment. So they tend to do their homework for a long time. And there I think I remember in one report, they said the average ten year of their outside managers as something like thirteen years. So it's if you think getting in to a school like gale or printing is hard, try get into being one of their managers .

just actually and I want to get in to this world but just a very quick he does harvard have heads from yeah OK .

they do o and is the second largest allocation. Now it's at thirty two percent. The largest allocation is private equity at thirty nine percent.

And just a very, very short question. If Tracy and I starting a hedge fund and it's like a multistate hedge fund and all that up, would harvard definitely be one of our stops when we're trying to look at raising money?

Did you go to harvard? I'm just kidding. I I um I don't know IT just depends. They like niche, really nitches stuff IT. So if you're .

you know .

PS peddling something like a japanese, something fun that is really niche that nobody else is doing.

maybe so you mention the sort of turmoil at the upper levels of the harvard in downend. And I think we're on the fifth CEO in like eleven years, something like that. Can you describe the new C. E.

O? Like where does he come from? And is his style different to processors? I think he's done some restructuring of the company and things like that.

yes. So he came in, in december twenty sixteen from colombia, where he had excEllent performance. And that was one of the reasons why he was hired because, you know, the performance of columbia used to be pretty good, but he came in and had to steer A A very large ship in in a as ship that's very scrutinised.

Everybody wants to know how harvard is doing. And as I mentioned before, they used to employ more than two hundred people, traders in. They had a different model than yale because they had a huge internal presents, and they slash that.

He also reversed course on natural resources, where that had been a huge interest of je in deo, the previous longer terms. C, E, O of harvard management. But they didn't do as well.

So he told a lot of those off. They restructured pay again, we talked about, you know, if you're manager and you did great in your own ass class, you would get handsomely rewarded. But if the endowment as a whole was not performing well, that didn't really matter. So he made a lot of changes.

Let's talk about actually, you mention natural resources, which could be code for a few things. So I I seem to call I just remember another thing that I remembered about David swinson, which is I think he was like, really in the timber yeah for a while. And there was like sort of like famously in the timber.

There is another natural resource issue. And this will eventually allow us to talk about what I really wanted talk about, which is the university of texas. But of course, resource politics and resource of vesting is always, always controversial when IT comes to, you know, carbon feels like oil and stuff like that. So before we get into texas and all their oil money, what is the status of harvey's own investments in things like oil and that? And how is like the sort of unique politics of harvard affect those choices?

So for a long time, most schools, you we're asked by their students to divest from anything related to fossil fuels. Harvard did not divest from anything. I think sometimes that's not understood.

Well, divest means selling things in harvard said we're not going to make new investments. So you know what that means to allow things to roll off. You're not going to make when this this next private equity fund is raising money.

That means they may not go into IT. They're not selling on the secondary market. You know typically and downs don't have direct holdings or you know maybe they have a tiny amount.

Maybe IT was a gift and they still have held on to IT. But typically in downtown today do not have direct holdings in companies. That's how they used to in in the seventies and eighties.

In the eighties, when you heard about schools investing from investments related to a cartie, they were literally selling U. S. Companies that Operated in south africa.

So that's a huge change. So they stop making new fossil fuel investments in north road in one of the reports in twenty two, when they had a loss, the C. E, O said harvard had missed out on strong returns in the energy sector, and that decision contributed margin to the loss that year. But at the same time, you look at a place like texas, which has huge amount of cash coming in because of oil. And let is this a good time to bring .

up their history? Yeah.

yeah. Where does the how did the oil money kind of start?

So IT was kind of a fluke in a, look, lucky stroke of history. In the late eighteen seventies, the state of texas set aside lane for higher education. And IT was supposed to be near the railroad, but I was too valuable.

And IT got moved to west taxes. And eventually higher education in taxes was allowed something like two point one million acres in west texas. And they were supposed to generate money by agriculture or breezing, right? And the plan was eventually to sell IT. But then in one thousand twenty three, something happened to, do you know what happened?

Well, black road struck. Now there's a at the university of texas campus. There's this little I don't know, it's still there. But twenty years ago, little like sort of I don't know exhibit and they play this audio like stumble top, like old and IT is like that. This like really like exaggerating, detects this accent. There's like a fake oil derr or oil well, there's something like that, this sort of shows like what where and all came from.

So in one thousand twenty three, they literally started getting all the revenue from oil. And I did a story a couple years of, I went down to midland and I went on on the land and that year they got something like two billion dollars in cash. And it's it's completely separate from their endowments ment.

It's not generated from investment, is just cash that comes in. And the crazy thing about IT is you there you know you hear, oh well, at some point energy is not gonna be is not gonna is valuable, which you know it's still gonna around for twenty thirty years, generating a lot of money for taxes. But they are in the best position for winning solar also, which is a really nason industry there. But you when you're ready for that, they're gonna make a lot of money too.

IT is kind of crazy to think that that decision set aside land in like the eighteen hundreds is really paying off now. So every once in a while, joe will tweet something about the texas long horns, the football team. And so one thing i'm curious about is we're talking about all this money that's flowing into universities.

What's the breakdown of like where colleges get their money? So I imagine it's a mix of donations. Turns from downs. Are sports like part of that too?

I don't think it's a huge amount. I mean, unless you know one of the schools like texas that actually makes money on sports, but it's A A very small number of schools actually collect you somewhat of anyone to say a profit but generate revenue. But you know, many schools have weird histories of how they made their money, like memory.

For example, in a lentz, there are one of the Richard schools, in part of the reason is because of the coke stock that was given to them and they eventually sold. Northwestern is one of the Richard schools because a drug called lua was developed in the chemistry department. In one of their president a few years, a few president back decided to sell half of the royalties, and that's why they had why they became one of the Richard schools.

Sorry, i'm just thinking more about that little exhibit on the texas camp. There's the other thing they like black gold texas, that they also say I love that text.

Why did we go see that exhibit?

And is one of words give your college student you're like walk around and you maybe like drunk at eleven P M. At night. You're like walking through campus like you stop there. The audio is playing a recollec twenty four seven next this pop.

I'm sure you're not speaking from the .

I do not really, but that's like A A thing that you do. okay. I get like texas is this big advantage because of this flute gift from over one hundred years ago, and they discovered all the oil and you know and the wind and solar coming up. But like it's not just that they're done .

a good job too, right? Well, they're huge. I mean, it's a huge campus.

And initially that money only funded two campuses. U. T.

Austin. And we can't forget about taxi N M. In college station. They share, they share that lean. Two thirds goes to universities, taxi Austin. One third goes to taxi them, and they pull that money together and its invested in a company called you tim co. Ah they follow the harvard management company model and they created a separate company when new tim cow is based in Austin. And you know if you're a hedged fund and you're visiting, you know the big texas pension funds, you tim cow is there in Austin. So it'll just be another place.

So Tracy, because of my texas route and we're starting all lod mult strategy hedged fund, we would stop at your timko rather than harvard. That would be our first .

stop rather than harvard .

IT sounds like you just want to go to one thing .

i'm wondering is so in downtown are invested heavily in private equity, which we talked about. And he feels to me like there's a little bit more criticism of private equity right now. Then there used to be there is a big piece in the guardian about how private equity is like ruining the economy, things like that. Do you think that's gonna any pressure to divest from p well.

I don't know that they would want to telling anything on the secondary market, but they, you know perhaps you they may not want to a rep and increase their allocation because at this point, they're quite large. You know harvard in in heel in prince and they're around the thirty nine percent ish percentage in part of the reason is, again, I keep going back to twenty twenty one when they had these crazy returns.

But you know the value of their private equity books just really increased with those um returns. So you know this is a it's a bigger share of their downy and plus they've had great returns up until recently. And you know when you think of when David went started investing in private decades ago, there wasn't that much money. So is easier to get crazy returns as they could.

Direct lending has been one of the most dynamic areas of the private alternative space these last few years, having grown massively as a source of capital for both corporate borrowers but also financial sponsors that have kept going from strength to strength. And i've needed that private capital to Foster the growth that theyve .

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So where are we in terms of the biggest? How close are we towards my a using go eclipsing a harvard manager company? What what .

it's hard to tell. I mean, if you look at how harvard did in the last ten years in their analyze returns in the year that ended twenty twenty three, they were in the bottom twenty percent OK. So it's hard to tell. I mean, if you get another banner year with energy and they keep getting a couple billion dollars in cash.

how much litter the people in terms of their .

I don't know if i've seen what you is right now. You know a couple billion here and there.

So we're close.

okay. So the other thing that's going on speaking of public criticism, is some of the israel palestine controversy that happened at harvard over the past year. Talk to us about that in what impact that's been having on donations.

So harvard has been at the forefront of protest on campus. Like many schools they had in can't means their ended in the spring without police arrests. I think everybody was very happy about that. But there was a tremendous amount of criticism over the last year about how they've handled antisemitism. Campus protests encountered in alone, I really mobilized.

Instead, we're not donating and you know, invent in alarm I very wealthy ones like one botanic and just sort of your average harvard alarm know said we're not going to do this in their known for being amazing fundraisers. They raised over a billion dollars every year. Since twenty fourteen, they usually raised the most, although stanford has raised more in some years in donations were down fifteen percent in in the year ended in june.

And when you think about when they were in the news so much at the end of december, remembered there was that congressional hearing in december fifth with the president of pen M. I T. In harvard. They were in the news from not stop IT until the end of december SHE ultimately stepped down, clouding gay, the president on chain where second, but when do most people make their gifts to colleges? They make their gifts at the end of the calendar year, and that was not a great time for harvard.

I just have one last question, and it's a little bit philosophical in my bed for not don't donating to my college, I had an amazing time at text. I mean, this year I had an amazing time at text. nothing.

I actually learned LED directly to a job, but he was a formative experience. I look back on IT fondly. I've been very fortunate in my career since then. Many good things that have happened in my life for roughly from that time that I spent there, like I should I like think about this differently because when I look at is like, here's that they have tons of money I don't really need anymore. Like pitch me that like a good idea.

Well, do you want to help students have a similar experience?

I don't know.

Maybe there is something in particular you can tail your into something specifically. I mean and that's one of the podcast course.

yes. Well.

that's one of the things that harvard you know complaints about is a lot of their money is they say is restricted. So if you give money to the cruel team, they can't spend IT, in theory, on testy. So you could say, I anna, I anna, give IT to something. And then there you go. IT could be named after you.

If you mean, yeah, maybe little, maybe a little podcast studio and the jay school.

jay, you one .

thing about .

these gifts, five years so you could make up pledge show over ten years or whatever the case, but i'm open .

to changing my mind on this. So rule just between the three of us here in the room, like I think I have the number that like, they call me on. Like, I either have a blocked or like I have like, and this I do not answer open to, i'm open to like, kind of cruel that yeah, I know I think I have a little issue.

I I have some misgiving and i'm open to rethinking this question at this stage of I like genet learn. Thank you so much for coming on. I really .

appreciated.

Thanks for 等于 去 展。

Tracy, I am going to use this pocket for the most nakedly aggregate, self serving purpose ever right now. I just want everyone to be aware of that OK.

We is IT urging listeners to continue to support pod so that you can make donations to study.

No, no, no. I like in to rethinking my philosophy is because I probably, when I blocked the number, I was like much Younger earlier. No, you know what? I've thought I came here to say this aloud.

I've thought that a nice, I quote, retirement job for me would be being substantive advent professor at the journalism school, A U. T. And like, done digital media, and like, maybe through donations or something. Find a way back into that community.

Yes, start laying the ground one. Now, basically.

I start prepaying my salary, make a bunch of donations so that, you know, twenty years from now, when we stop doing od lads, there is like this pool of money that can fund my address ant degree. Yeah, solution, maybe someone will hear that. And h don't .

go to taxes too.

No, okay, but I yeah maybe someone to listen and at the university texas journalism school and .

here about .

my twenty twenty years, you know one other thing of for real, though, I think is really interesting about this and I hadn't realized, is the different in the corporate structure between the harvard in downtown and the yale endowment. And so you can so anyone can just look at the harvard and damis.

How are you paying all these people so much? Have you heard passive? Is the future all these fees? And yet you could have another institution that's doing fantastically and no one sees how much they're paying managers or how much individual star traders are getting because those independent star traders are at the hedges funds that no one actually gets to see because they don't file some independent return.

You know, speaking of transparency, I saw this really great chart in the harvard Christison, the student newspaper, and it's the word count of the annual message from the harvard management company, CEO, the o and I think IT used to be like over three thousand words typically, and now it's gone down to a little over a thousand. So that's where a lot of the criticism of lack of transparent at harvard comes from.

Yeah, well, you just get rid of all, you know, don't have any in house traders, talk your thing and you let the third party managers, the hedge funds be, let them write the words in the letters, that third of right words in the letters. That's right. Shall we leave at there?

S all right. This has been another episode of the all thought podcast. I am Tracy alway. You can follow me at Tracy alla and i'm .

sure washing so you can follow me at the store. Follow or guess Janet laun at janua laun and check out her recent big tag on the harvard in downtown on limbed dot com. Follow our producers common rubric is at common or dash Bennett at dashpots and q Brooks rooks and thank you to our producer moas on them for more odd lots content, go to blimp g dog com. Slash out lots were a transcript of blog and a newsletter, and you can chat about all of these topics twenty four seven in our discord discord dut gg. Slash shop lots.

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