74. “I’m $450k in debt but she still wants me to treat her to dinner” (Part Two)
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Before we start today's show, I have a really exciting announcement that I've been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1st, 2025, I'm releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years, you've heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I've spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money and where they get stuck.

and how they can get on the same page. Well, behind the scenes, I've been working on the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money, and that's what I wrote for you. It's coming out January 1st, and in the book, I'm going to share how to talk about money, including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances.

I'm going to show the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health.

And finally, you're going to get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship. And you're going to discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page. Now, it's one thing to listen to couples or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it's a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. Okay?

I'm so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre-order it using the link IWT.com slash money for couples and stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to IWT.com slash money for couples to pre-order my new book about getting on the same financial page as your partner.

Um, what the hell is going on on this podcast that like 80% of the people who come on here go through massive screening, fill out applications, they never actually read my book. Is anyone else puzzled by this? Look, a lot of the questions that you ask me about money are answered directly in I Will Teach You To Be Rich. How do you pay off your student loans? How do you automate your finances? Where do you start investing and how do you handle big purchases?

I wrote this book as a six-week program so you can follow along on your own or with a partner. If you want to improve your finances, I recommend you get the I Will Teach You To Be Rich book. It has over 18,000 reviews on Amazon. Get it at iwt.com slash book. And I definitely operate from more of a scarcity mindset than not. This was maybe two years ago.

I upgraded my computer from a laptop to a desktop. And it took me almost a week to unpackage it because I was honestly driving myself crazy with like, what did I do? I fucked up. I can't afford this. Can I return this? Should I return it? I was like, you know, so scared that I was like, oh my gosh, what if I can't afford a vet bill or something else? In my mind, it was

one that almost felt really scary and irresponsible. Even now, it sort of overwhelms me to be able to be in a place to afford nice things for myself. You know, I came from an immigrant background. There was never enough money. Seeing the stress that money played in my parents' relationship, I feel like it was inevitable that I would run into the same thing. I think that if you don't change anything, you will find yourself continuing to argue,

and to spin about money. And it will become even more painful. I really don't like the sound of that. Thanks for joining me on part two of this absolutely fascinating conversation with Nate and Serena. Now, they're both in their 20s. They're engaged and living together, but they have a big income disparity. Serena makes $80,000.

And Nate makes $45,000 a year today, but soon he'll make $300,000 a year as a doctor. Last week on part one of this conversation, Serena told us that they split the rent about 50-50, that Nate pays for dinner most of the time, and that she wants to be taken care of, even though she earns nearly twice as much as he does.

But when I asked if she'd be comfortable paying 50-50 once he starts making 300K, she said no. In Nate and Serena's relationship, you can hear deeply embedded gender roles, hidden expectations, and grappling with changing incomes. I have to tell you that I really appreciate their candor in this two-part conversation. On today's episode, we're going to go much deeper than last week.

Remember that you can watch this couple on my YouTube channel where I'd encourage you to subscribe to get new episodes. I'm Ramit Sethi, and this is I Will Teach You To Be Rich. Serena, how much do you make per year? I make 80Ks before taxes. Okay, cool. And Nate, what about you? You make 45? Yeah. All right, fine. Let me make sure I understand. So you're each paying $1,000. Your rent went up.

That made it very difficult for you, Nate, to afford it. Serena, you wanted to stay in this particular area. So you had a back and forth and you concluded with Serena, you're paying a little bit more like $160 more per month for this apartment. At first, I was not thrilled at the prospect of spending more when we're both splitting the apartment, but you know,

After thinking about it, like now I'm completely fine with it and it's totally normal. And, you know, I don't mind at all. I'm okay paying $160 extra. The most successful couples I see, especially in situations like this, where you have separate incomes, et cetera, is proportional. So proportional means if you're making 65% of the income, you pay 65% of the joint expenses.

And that would probably suggest that you pay more for this rent and that Nate pay less. How would you feel about that? It's kind of like with the talking about the check, like I think it would be really hard for me at first just because it's not something I've done ever before and not something I even, I think would have considered. Yeah. It just wouldn't come to mind at first just because I can very easily rattle off

Other things that are also important to me with how I spend my money. Your 401k, your investments, your travel, family, gifts, all of those things. For sure. You can always find something to put a lot of money towards. But I have to ask you this. Who's your person? Nate. And of all those things, shouldn't Nate be up there somewhere? Yeah, I think.

Don't think I've ever really thought of Nate as, okay, this is someone that is a very important part of my life. If not among, you know, like, if not the most important, but I'm the way I spend my money doesn't really reflect that. And I think it's because I've never really thought of money as emotional for me. I think money has always been transactional. That's amazing.

Think about it now. Now that you have this new lens, it's almost like you took off the glasses you're wearing, which were transactional, and you put on this red pair of glasses, and they're emotional, okay? And now that you have this set of lenses on, now take a look back at some of the things we talked about. The fact that Nate comes home, and within 15 minutes, you're asking him those questions. With the emotional lenses on, what do you now see about that scenario?

I see him coming home and his scrubs looking really cute, saying that I miss him, maybe offering to pour him a glass of wine, talking about our day. And maybe like ahead of time, deciding on like, when is like a neutral time for us to talk about just like more serious things in our relationship, whether it's money or, you know, just something else that's affecting us. But I think when he comes home from work is not that time.

Because it's about more than just your need to check the box. Although that's very important. You want to do it. We should find a way to do that. Absolutely. But the message of money communicates more than just numbers. What money messages did you learn growing up? Seeing the stress that money played in my parents' relationship, I feel like it was inevitable that I would run into the same thing.

You know, I came from an immigrant background, so there was never enough money. It was very much that sort of energy growing up. I feel like they were always like, you know, be as conservative as you can. Why? Like until like be as like cautious with your money as you can until you are 100% certain that like you are covered to pay more than you.

you know, the lowest amount or whatever. Like, okay. Do you believe that? Do I believe that? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Okay. I think so. I kind of believe that too, but I think that can be taken too far perverted. I think it can be misconstrued and you end up fixating on like $10 expenses. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And I definitely, I think like operate from more of a scarcity mindset than not. Um,

Can you give an example of when you operated from a scarcity mindset? I think like, I feel like Nate would be able to come up with one like in five seconds. I know Nate's got a million. Just hang on, Nate. I want to hear from you. Oh, this was, okay. This was during the pandemic. This was maybe two years ago. I, we're all working from home, right?

I was like, you know what would really make work from home way easier and way more efficient and just generally better? Like if I upgraded my computer from a laptop to a desktop. And this is something I could comfortably buy. I didn't have to save a penny for it. I literally had, I just had to dip a little bit into savings and very comfortably roll up to the Apple store and buy myself like a desktop.

So I bought it online and it took me almost a week to unpackage it because I was honestly driving myself crazy with like, what did I do? I fucked up. I can't afford this. Can I return this? Should I return it? I could list off so many reasons why it was a great investment. And now I can see that it really was great. And I use it all the time and I don't feel guilty about buying it. But in the moment I was like,

So I was so scared that I was like, oh my gosh, what if I can't afford a vet bill or something else or groceries or something else? I was really scared that this very... No one's buying computers every month. I mean, maybe some people are, but I'm not. It was this very isolated investment that I made. But in my mind, it was...

One that almost felt really scary and irresponsible. You like that feeling? No, it sucks. What did you get out of all the agonizing for 10 days? I think letting it sit there was my way of not accepting it for myself. And this is one thing that I think does tie back into just how I grew up. I think even now...

It sort of overwhelms me to be able to be in a place to afford nice things for myself. But I still felt really conflicted over accepting it and unwrapping it. It was my way of accepting it and leaving it in the nice shiny box was my way of almost being in limbo, sort of, of I own it, but...

I don't have it, if that makes sense. I'm putting some pieces together. You growing up with your immigrant parents encouraging you to be cautious, the fact that you spent your 20s in New York being broke, like so many people do, and the fact that only recently you've gotten this big raise, but it seems like maybe psychologically you haven't yet caught up to your financial situation. Would that be fair?

Oh yeah, no, I am. I would say I'm very much not caught up with where I'm actually at. Yeah. And to me, this is a great moment because you're 29. And if we can identify that and start working on it now, gosh, you can really improve your money psychology versus, you know, I talked to people who are 55 years old. They have millions in the bank and they worry about a $50 charge here and there. I don't want you to have to do that.

You know, it's really hard for people to turn the page. Once you learn the skill of making money, it's relatively easy to increase that. But to change your money psychology is very hard because it's rarely taught. And frankly, it's not really valued in this society. Anyone can be rewarded financially and socially for working hard and getting a raise. Just think about when that's happened to you.

But how do you get rewarded for having a monthly money conversation with your partner or creating a rich life list and automating money for your anniversary? Or perhaps even taking a lower paying job because it fits the type of lifestyle that you want.

The truth is those type of decisions are not rewarded in our society. So it's much more common to meet people who have lots and lots of money, but fewer money psychology skills.

You know how many people's conscious spending plans I see every week? What's fascinating is the categories of spending, especially the ones where people spend way more than they think they do. For example, subscriptions. Let's take a look at some recent numbers on how much people spend on subscriptions. $100 a month on subscriptions. $205 a month. That's from someone spending 76% of their take home each month on fixed costs.

costs, $211 a month, $147 a month, and $487 a month. This is literally thousands of dollars a year, and most of us have forgotten about all the subscriptions we are actually paying for.

Thankfully, this episode's sponsor, Rocket Money, can help you easily find and cancel those unwanted subscriptions. Rocket Money monitors your spending and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you by up to 20%. Just submit a picture of your bill

and Rocket Money takes care of the rest. They'll even deal with customer service for you. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash Ramit. Give it a shot at rocketmoney.com slash Ramit. That's rocketmoney.com slash Ramit.

My team and I create tons of material every single day. Scripts, voiceovers, emails, all kinds of material that we need to be good and we need it to happen fast. And one of the things we use is Grammarly, especially their new AI tool. For example, every Saturday, we send out my podcast newsletter. I break down an anonymous person's conscious spending plan. And I like going really deep to break down the numbers and show you things you might have missed in your own finances.

Well, guess what? That is a lot of copy. Before, it would take my team a ton of time to work through everything I had written and edit it and make it right for email. Now, Grammarly does it for us in seconds. Grammarly Premium actually gives us suggestions on how to make our writing more impactful for you. It identifies gaps in the writing and shows personalized suggestions to improve the whole thing. And it can even add images like that.

Save time with one click and go from editing drafts in hours to seconds. Get AI writing support that works where you work. Sign up and download for free at grammarly.com slash podcast. That's G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y dot com slash podcast. Easier said, done. Can I just point out that the two of you are soon going to make at least $380,000 together.

Yeah, that's like, I can't even process that. Same, honestly. You might as well be saying you're going to make like 380 monopoly monies together. Well, should we talk about that? Because the fact that you can't process it doesn't mean it's not going to happen. And the fact that you both have compartmentalized that very large top 5% income earners away is allowing you to fight over tiny questions about

dinner out. So can the two of you have a conversation? Can you actually just sit and with the concept that you're both together going to be making almost $400,000 a year in less than three years? Okay. I don't know what we would do with all of that money, to be honest. We don't. And it feels like it would be happening to us.

Yeah, honestly, I filled out the same form with the future earning or whatever. And it basically was, I guess I'm paying a lot more towards my debt and savings. I just, I don't know. That's part of it. I don't know what it means. I don't know. It's literally...

six to 10 times more than I've ever made in my life. And it's going to literally happen in the space of like one month. And it's just like I've grappled with it and I thought about it. And it's just so foreign to me. Serena, what's going to change? If nothing changes in terms of the way that two of you communicate about money, behave, treat money, four years from now, what's going to happen?

I mean, it's hard for me to think like granularly. I think like four years from now, it would be really awesome to get to a place where talking about money, thinking about money would be like a source of like potential, like what can we do with this money versus right now when we talk about it, it's...

It's hard to not be stressed about it. You think you'll stop the stress the minute that he starts getting those $30,000 a month paychecks? Not the minute. I think we'll be closer to it. I think the stress will go down. That's for sure. I think it'll be easier to sign a check at dinner. Rent will be there, no question. I don't think the conversations will increase. I think what would happen is we would

The stress would go down. And so for us needing to have conversations about it would go down, but then we probably just wouldn't have any conversations because it's probably fine. But then that might start affecting the more longer term kind of goals that we both have. I think there's always going to be something to like today. It might be rent or it might be, you know, splitting a check, but.

you know, if we bring life into this world, like that's a whole other thing that like is very much not on our radar right now. Yeah. Yeah. Private or public school, renovation, vacation. Should we pay for our family to do X, Y, Z? Those are big decisions. Yeah. I think that making like five times what you're making or whatever that number is, it's going to be a lot more. That's going to definitely reduce a lot of the day-to-day stress.

Questions like, when are you going to pay me back? It's going to be gone. Questions like, who's paying for dinner? Well, once you combine your finances, I think that question will go away because you can just use a joint credit card. So that's irrelevant. But I think that if you don't change anything, that you will find yourself continuing to argue,

and to spin about money. And it will become even more painful because you'll say, why are we, one of you will say, why are we fighting about money? We make $400,000 a year. How can we still be fighting about money? And you're not going to know why you're still fighting. I really don't like the sound of that. Do you believe that that's possible? I think it's definitely possible. I would like to know how to

get ahead of it and avoid that fork in the road though. Yeah. I want to show you how to do that, but I wanted to set the stage for the fact that just making more money

does not solve your money problems. It's like a really common misconception. Basically, everybody thinks if I made $10,000 more or $25,000, or if I had $100,000 in the bank, all my problems would vanish. And then they make it and they're like, oh shit, I'm still unhappy. I still worry about money all the time. My partner and I still fight. And it's...

The point is you need to work on two things. One is improving your tactical financial situation so that your conscious spending plan is all dialed in. The second part is the money psychology. How do we talk about money? What is our rich life? And that part is often neglected. Let me just tell you what I would do if it were me knowing what I know about money and I'm making 380 K household income with all that debt.

Oh my God. I would fucking crush it. I would have a debt payoff plan. Depending on my interest rate, I would invest the max of every account I could possibly do because I know in my early 30s, just three or four years of super aggressive investing, talking about 50, 60, 70, 80K in a year would make me multimillionaire. Okay. Make us multimillionaires. Just those first few years. Next.

I would definitely increase my lifestyle spent. Let me say that again, because a lot of people, they go, the hedonic treadmill, fuck the hedonic treadmill. I go, fuck you. The hedonic treadmill is real and we should accept it. If you're making $380,000, you're still living the same way you lived when you were making 45,000 as a resident, you fucked up somewhere bad. You should go out to eat out more. You should take a nice trip. You should buy a new pair of shoes. Do a few things.

but within reason. That's what the conscious spending plan guilt-free spending category is for. Because you got your percentages, it all flows. When you were making 45K and your guilt-free spending was 20% to 35%, you weren't spending that much. It was probably below 20% because you're really frugal. Cool. When you're making $300,000 or $380,000 household income, that 20% to 35% is quite sizable. Now, you can do it all without

with that kind of income, you have some choices to make, but that is how I would do it. I would stay in a small apartment. I would not go out and buy a house first day. I would keep the cars that I've got. I would invest super aggressively for three or four years. And by the way, during that time, I don't know about your income, Nate, if it's going to go up, but I bet your income will Serena.

And so you're starting from a place of aggressive investment. And then slowly over time, maybe you have children. Maybe you decide, okay, I want to cool it a bit on the investing. We're investing like super aggressively. I would like to be able to take a couple more trips. That's a great discussion to have. That's just me. I'm not saying you have to do it, but that's what I would do. And I would absolutely dominate my finances if I had 380K household income like you two.

God damn, that's how you make money exciting. I talk about taking the win on this podcast, but I'm about to take the win for myself. I just eviscerated the hedonic treadmill losers. I laid out a sensible spending plan, including eating out and traveling. I offered two options for debt payoff, including based on interest rates and an extremely aggressive investment plan to become a multimillionaire.

Some dudes get excited about sports. I get excited about how to spend your newfound income, which just quadrupled overnight. You just learned something. One of the worst feelings in life is feeling stuck.

You hear it sometimes with podcast couples here. They feel stuck around their money. I felt stuck in my business. I had made a bunch of decisions years ago and I woke up feeling trapped. So after thinking about it, feeling stuck, not sure what to do, I went to a CEO council that I'm a part of and I just laid it out. And after listening to me, they were like, oh, it's so obvious. You need to change this. Move this person over here. Change this resource allocation. Boom.

I wish I had done it years earlier. If you feel stuck in your career and you also wish you had a group of peers who could help you get unstuck,

help you accelerate your career, then I'd like to invite you to check out this episode's sponsor, Sidebar. Sidebar is an exclusive, highly curated leadership program where you can tap into a group of supportive peers, including Fortune 500 executives and innovative startup CEOs. You can get expert advice, new perspectives, and most importantly, raw feedback, which is so rare on how you can get unstuck.

When you become a member, you get matched with a group of eight to 10 peers. Then you meet with your group twice a month for 90 minute facilitated sessions and have real time messaging access to the entire community. Learn more at sidebar.com slash Ramit.

and join thousands of top senior leaders from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta who have taken the first step towards accelerating their careers. That's sidebar.com, S-I-D-E-B-A-R.com slash R-A-M-I-T. When I was in my early 20s, I was not into clothes. I wore free t-shirts from tech companies, and I really did not want to seem like I tried too hard.

But I started to realize that clothing is the first thing people see about you. They don't see how nice I am or how much I know about personal finance. They see what I'm wearing. And like it or not, that shapes a lot of how people perceive you.

Now, I take a lot of pride in the clothes I wear. And I love knowing that when I buy something, I'm going to keep it for years and I know that the people who made it were paid well. I actually hired my wife, who runs Next Level Wardrobe, a luxury personal styling company, to style me for my Netflix show and all of my events, including what I wear day to day for more casual outfits.

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You'll be able to open your closet every single day and know exactly what to wear for every single event. They'll help you look like an elevated version of you. And they work with professionals of all ages and sizes. I love the convenience. Next Level Wardrobe has over 125 star reviews from happy clients and they've been featured in the Wall Street Journal. Take their free styling quiz at nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit.

Elevate your style using Next Level Wardrobe at nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit. That's nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit. I remember Ramit when I signed a lease for an apartment I thought I couldn't afford. It was the last apartment I had in New York. And Nate from the beginning was like, what are you talking about? You're fine. And I was making less than I am now, mind you.

And I was freaking out because it was like an amazing apartment. It was nothing I didn't love about it. I got my own bathroom, which when does that ever happen in New York when you have a roommate? And yeah.

It was like the computer. I was like, I've signed the lease, but I was still like, holy shit, what did I do? And there was not one month where I was like, oh no, I'm not going to be able to make rent. So I think it's like, this has been a pattern throughout my life. And it's not even about how much money I make. It's like, I'm always, my first inclination is to always make

feel really stressed and anxious that I can't afford something even before I even see if I can. Yes. And tell me, what do you get out of that? In a very long winded way, like the worst way possible, I find out that I actually can afford it and that I probably didn't need to stress so much in the first place. So what does it get you then? Why not just skip to the end? Why do you like doing all those checklists?

Why do you ask him more than once a week, when are you going to pay me back? When you know that his financial situation has not changed. What do you get out of the checklist? What do you get out of ruminating about the apple? What is it that you get? It's all tied together. I don't know. I guess it's kind of like an itch that I like to scratch, but it doesn't actually do anything. When you cross that thing off that checklist, what do you feel?

like a temporary dopamine rush. Yeah. You know, but it's not actually, it's not solving the issue. It doesn't, and again, like you said, it's not like anything else has changed. Does it make you feel in control? Oh my God, yes. I'm such a control freak. How did you know? How did I know? I don't know. How did I know? Oh my God, it is control. That's what it is. Serena.

Serena, I could read the word control within 10 seconds of meeting you. Nate knows it. I know it. Every listener, every viewer on YouTube knows it. Everyone except you. God, I really love this job. So talk me through it. Talk me through those examples. Put on the new set of lenses. What are the lenses you're going to put on right now?

The red ones that you talked about. Well, the red ones are the emotional ones. Put those aside for now. You're putting on the control lenses. Oh my God. Now look at the world through control. When you create a checklist, what is it giving you? A semblance of being in charge, a semblance of knowing where everything is at any given time. Yeah. And when that Apple thing sat for days and you agonized over it, what did it give you? I think I was...

scared that I went out of control. Yeah. Okay. And when, and it gave you time to breathe and confirm that you hadn't made a terrible decision because if you made a bad decision with a $2,000 computer, what would that mean for you? I've lost control. Yeah. And if you lose control, what does it mean? If you lose control with a $2,000 purchase, what does it mean for you? I guess it, I don't know. It's bad. It means that you could lose it all.

Oh, yeah. No, it's like that's the slippery slope. Yeah, it's really slippery. If I buy a $2,000 computer, I might trip and fall and go completely bankrupt. Yeah, I know. I'm hearing it too now. It's funny, right? I like to highlight the absurdity of it by just saying it out loud. Let's just shine a light on it. Yeah, it is absurd, but we all have absurd beliefs.

That's what's beautiful about this whole process. I don't think you're stupid for having that belief. I think actually I find beauty in the commonality that whether you make 80K like you do, raised by immigrant parents, or whether we have someone I know who makes $200,000 per month. She was on this podcast. There are similarities, so many. And that's really the beauty of talking about your rich life.

We are all in this together. So you realize now that when you go through this process of worrying and using the word cautious, what does it really get you? Nothing. What did we just discuss? Help her out, Nate. You guys are partners. Control. Control. Do you agree that Serena likes control?

Absolutely. It's the same thing with the check sharing earlier and being very on top of every financial situation. That's why it surprised me that you didn't ask him about his interest rate on his loan. Because I knew you were super into control, but it seems like you compartmentalized that one away, Serena. No, totally. I would agree. Okay. Even though potentially that could affect you. Yeah.

Wow. Can I ask you a question? Do you like being, you called it a control freak? Yeah. I wouldn't, I don't know how you want it. Some people call it a control freak. Some people, you know, they lead with being in control. Do you like that? Yeah. You like it. Okay. I love the honesty. Tell me this. When can control go right? Like when does it really give you advantages and where can it go wrong?

I think when it goes right, it's like a sense of preparedness. And I think when it goes wrong is like when you've got like your blinders on and you can't see outside of that. Like, you know, like before we had this conversation, like I didn't have like potentially paying more in rent on the brain whatsoever. I didn't think about, you know, how treating Nate to dinner would make him feel like,

I love that. I love that. I love both of those. Listen, I like to be in control too. I'm an entrepreneur. I want things done my way. I love it. But I also realize that it can be destructive. It can be destructive to me because it makes me less spontaneous.

And it becomes very narrow. Like you said, it puts blinders on. It's just like my way or the highway. And that is not good. I'm pretty quick to say no, which is something Nate frequently points out. Love it. And then it can also be, it can rub people the wrong way, right? Everything has to be in control. And some people just don't operate that way. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I really love Serena's honesty. Even though I don't think her views on money were fair to Nate, I think her candor has made this conversation really enjoyable. And I have to tell you, it's been really cool to watch the body language between Serena and Nate as they connect more.

Now that she's opened up about her need for control, I often find that people can start spinning by talking about something they're not good at. It almost becomes addictive. They just want to talk so much about it. Instead, I'm going to shortcut that and I'm going to focus on who she wants to be. If you had to describe your top three values, like personal values, would you say control would be in the top three?

Yeah, control for sure. Well, my twin sister would say judgmental if she's listening. What else? Feel free to brag about yourself. We often don't get the opportunity to brag about ourselves. What would you say? Ambitious. Ambitious. Love it. Okay. Love it. All right. So you have three, your top three, let's call them characteristics, would be control, judgmental, and ambitious. Cool. Love it. That's you. Cool. Now, let me ask you this.

what do you want them to be? Oh God. Like I think being ambitious, being determined is a really good thing. So I'd probably leave that one in there. Um, I said this earlier, I think I would really like to get to a place where I'm more generous. Love it. I really, uh, the third probably, I think I'm pretty thoughtful in certain ways, but I think. Yeah. Yeah.

I think thoughtful. But I guess I would like to embody it a little bit more than my current state. Wow. I believe you. I know myself pretty well, I think. I think you do too. Yeah. I'm not afraid to be honest about my flaws and things like that. Well, I love hearing this conversation with you and certainly with both of you. So I noticed that in your...

current three characteristics, you have control, judgmental, and ambitious. And in the ones you would like to be, you are also ambitious. Then you added generous and thoughtful. Okay. Let's talk about that for just a second. And then we're going to come back to the apartment. So you're generous now. How would I, an anthropologist with a clipboard, know that you are generous?

I mean, let's say again, we're back at the restaurant. Like I would grab the check. Love it. When it arrives. Beautiful. Give me a couple more. Um, I would show up and surprise Nate with a really nice cashmere, cashmere sweater, which I actually really did. I did that like a few weeks ago. Wow. Okay. That is very generous. Love it. Okay. What else? Um,

I don't know. I think Nate is definitely much more spontaneous, but surprising him with a date that I had planned and just enjoying going out together. That's awesome. What about being generous with yourself? Oh my gosh. I don't even know what that would look like. I guess not freaking out about buying a computer would be a good place to start. That'd be great. What would that look like if I were there with my clipboard watching you buy a computer? What would I see generous with?

Serena doing? The clipboard question. The reason I ask that is it helps people focus on their behavior. It gets them out of their head using vague words and focuses on the purely behavioral, the way that I as a sociologist or anthropologist would be able to observe with my eyes and a clipboard. It gets them out of their head.

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I think it would just look like I was buying a computer and I wasn't freaking out about it. I was just handing over the credit card or doing the Apple Pay thing and just moving on with my life. It would be a calm thing. You would know your numbers. You would, of course, walk in knowing what you can afford. You would buy the thing. How does it feel to really live in that characteristic? It was nice. Yeah. Do you think that you could do all those things you said? Yeah. Yeah.

I think so. You didn't tell me anything that seemed crazy. It all seemed very reasonable. I think it's a very achievable goal for me. I love personally that you picked generous. I wish more people would pick generous. It's one of my personal crusades. Now, can we go back to the apartment, to the conscious spending plan? So based on a quick calculation,

Serena, you make 65% of your joint income. Okay. And Nate, you currently make 35% of your total income. You're essentially splitting the apartment like 55-45. Yeah. How would you like to decide what to do for this apartment? Serena, why don't you take the lead? You said 65-35 income split?

I guess closer to 60-40 now sounds perfect, like it makes perfect sense. Okay. And why? Why 60-40? Well, I mean, looking, this is the first time we've outlined our fixed costs, our everything. It's the first time I'm looking at it on a spreadsheet. And so based on these numbers, I'm paying, I guess, 66% of my income. So I guess two-thirds of

goes to fixed costs but if nate is doing 97 seems kind of up now that's cool of you to say nate how does that feel to hear that's going to take some time to set in it's been uh been contending with this a little while a while yeah no i i'm it's it's nice to hear uh to be you know that it's recognized that like i can't i literally can't uh

afford these things as I've sort of been pigeonholed into spending. And like another thing that I'm sort of, that I'm sort of like, it's in relief now is like in let's say less than five years, it's almost a given that Nate's going to be paying more than 55% of our, you know, mortgage or rent. And so something I've like worked on separately, like in therapy is,

Millennial women love to talk about therapy and I'm one of them. It's like there are times in a relationship where one partner is going to need the other person more and vice versa. And I think now I'm sort of seeing like maybe this is that period of our life and it's hard to see it without objectivity when we're currently living in the year 2022, et cetera. But I think it's hard to, I think now I'm seeing, you know, maybe this is that moment where Nate's going to need me to,

carry the weight a little bit more yeah than i have been mate really appreciate that i really thank you for for thinking that um it means a lot it i know i keep saying that but i i feel like i've been struggling you know with this and i don't want you to struggle and i i think hold on sorry let's let him finish for a second yeah i've just been struggling with

feeling like I can't... I obviously can't pay for things for you as much as I would like to buy you dinner and pay my share of the rent being 90-whatever percent. But I just can't right now. And as much as I want to, it's logistically impossible. And so I really appreciate hearing sort of some recognition of that

where I am right now isn't and where we are right now isn't where we're going to be forever. It's really nice. It's really nice to hear, Serena, you connecting your work with your therapist with your situation that you're in with Nate right now. And Nate, it's really nice to hear when she bounced that ball over to you for you to really receive that and acknowledge what she said. That is a really beautiful way of talking about money. I just loved watching that.

Well, Serena, I totally agree with you. I think this is one of those times. I think it's been one of those times. I think Nate may have been looking for the words to say it, but talking about money is really hard. And so it comes out on both ends. It comes out in peculiar ways. You know, when he comes home from work and you ask him, like, when are you going to start the debt payoff? I know you're not trying to badger him.

Deep down, you want control. And this is that one thing in your life that you don't have an answer to. And that doesn't feel good. And Nate, you know that now. And she's even explicitly said, oh, yeah. At the same time, when Nate, you know, talks about the check, it's not really about the check. It's about something much bigger. I don't want to have to come to you and beg for money because I don't have $50 for gas. That doesn't feel good. And also,

Things are going to totally change. If we can't get through this right now, what are we going to do? Are we just going to paper it over with a lot more money? That doesn't feel good. So I love that we're at this moment where we can. And I love that you reached out to me and that you're also getting help from a therapist and whatever other sources. I love it.

Because you're in such a beautiful position to be able to get your process right. And then when the money comes in, and it will come in, to be able to have all the money flow through this beautiful process and beautiful way of communicating together. How are you both feeling right now? I mean, I'm feeling really good. At the beginning, I said I wanted to feel like I had the tools to talk about money in a more...

or less judgmental way in a less hurtful way in a less selfish way. And I like, I mean, I'm feeling it, you know, I'm feeling like we're finally getting there a little bit. And I have to admit, I, I was perhaps a little confident going into this conversation. I thought I, I guess I didn't think it'd be this hard and I didn't expect to have a breakthrough like we did at all. And I didn't anticipate how foreign it felt for me to, to get to that place. Yeah.

I feel very seen, actually, which is nice. I think it's been really interesting to put these things in sort of a different context. I think that really helps. I almost want to go out on the town and make you my sugar baby right now. I mean, no complaints here. I love that. All jokes aside, you paying for your partner who's in his residency does not make him your sugar baby. I know.

Just so we catch that. But I love the way the two of you are connecting. And I just like the smiles. That's what I want. So I'm really, really happy to watch the two of you grapple with these conversations. They're tough. It's not easy. And every minute we spend on this right now will save you years of heartache down the road.

It's not about dinner and it's not about the check. It's about how the two of you talk about money and love together. The way I see it is we're only, it's only going to get better from here, you know? And that, that feels really good to say, but,

I received follow-up letters from Serena and Nate. I'd like to excerpt them here for you. Serena said she learned that money could be a sense of joy, not stress and anxiety. I also learned I'm capable of spending more on rent than I thought I could, having actually taken a clear look at my financial state. I also learned that my overly cautious spending habits are more indoctrinated than I thought.

Nate wrote how emotionally intense Serena's relationship with money is and how much being in control financially really mattered to her subconsciously. Now, they sent me a list of new rules that they created for themselves and money. Let me read them to you.

Number one, dinner and drinks rule we talked about on the podcast. Whoever covers dinner doesn't cover drinks when we go to a bar afterwards. This can alternate. If we don't do drinks after, we split dinner 50-50. Number two, rent will be split 60-40.

Okay, let me share my feedback after reading their update letter. First, I'm happy that Nate and Serena could talk about these very difficult topics with each other, with me, and with you watching and listening. That takes a ton of courage. And all I have to do is say, would you be willing to come on this podcast and do exactly what Nate and Serena did? I think they are extremely courageous. I want to give them a round of applause. Second,

I'm not loving these rules. You know, on the episode, we spent a lot of time talking about generosity, but the new breakdown of 60-40 is not generous. Nate is actually still paying more than he proportionally should. He makes 35% of the household income, but he's paying 40% of the rent. Why? Well, one of the things I've learned with this podcast is that people make changes at their own pace.

To have Nate be explicit with what he needs is a huge step for him. And for Serena to acknowledge some of the invisible scripts she's carried, for example, that she should be taken care of, that she needs to constantly be in control, and that Nate is her person, but that's not really reflected in their spending, those are all steps in the right direction. Now, do I wish they'd gone further? Yes.

Am I glad they came on the show and took steps in the right direction? Absolutely. Thank you, Nate and Serena. Thanks to everyone for listening and watching. I appreciate you participating in the I Will Teach You To Be Rich podcast, and I will see you next week. Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book,

pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.