57. “I feel ashamed about having another child because we’re still renting”
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Before we start today's show, I have a really exciting announcement that I've been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1st, 2025, I'm releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years, you've heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I've spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money and where they get stuck.

and how they can get on the same page. Well, behind the scenes, I've been working on the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money, and that's what I wrote for you. It's coming out January 1st, and in the book, I'm going to share how to talk about money, including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances.

I'm going to show the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health.

And finally, you're going to get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship. And you're going to discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page. Now, it's one thing to listen to couples or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it's a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. Okay?

I'm so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre-order it using the link IWT.com slash money for couples and stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to IWT.com slash money for couples to pre-order my new book about getting on the same financial page as your partner. You know, money doesn't have to be boring. I get a lot of questions of people who have set up their accounts who have money being saved and they're like,

What now? What's next? How am I supposed to design my rich life? That is why I created the journal. The journal is something you can do either on your own or with a partner. Imagine yourself 15 minutes in the morning. You have a

cup of steaming tea, and you're sitting down following the prompts that help you envision what your rich life is. What's your perfect week? What's your perfect month, year? This journal is designed as a no numbers journal. It's not technical, but it's going to help you understand what you truly value and also what you don't care about.

I recommend you pick up a copy of this journal. You can do it solo or with a partner, and it will help you design your rich life. Get it at any bookstore now. This situation is not working. You know, we have like a two-bedroom apartment and we have a third baby on the way. I can't deal with the constant everyday fire, 911 fire phone calls or texts when I'm at work about how insufferable our current living situation is.

When I get the phone calls or the text of how terrible it is, like, it's hard to turn off the part of my brain. Do we have enough? Do we not have enough? Can we afford a house? Can we not afford a house? How much house could we afford? It doesn't feel good. I don't think it's healthy. The walls are closing in, and we need -- the kids need something different than this. I'm trapped. I'm a caged animal, and I'm losing my mind, basically.

By saying all that, what do you expect him to do? I expect him to help me or do something. I don't know what you want me to do. It's like, I can't take it anymore. It's such a broken record. My name is Ramit Sethi, and I find it fascinating all the invisible scripts we have about money. One of them goes like this. We're about to have kids, so now we need to move somewhere with a lot more space.

Kind of makes sense on the surface. It's how most of us have been raised, and yet it can cause all kinds of difficulties. Rebecca and Joe are 37 and 40 years old. They have two kids and a third on the way. And Joe currently brings in the household income of $93,000 as Rebecca is a teacher on extended maternity leave.

Well, the problem is they love the area they live in, but they believe they need more space. And when I look at their finances, they currently spend 105% of their income on fixed costs. As a refresher, I recommend spending no more than 60% of income on fixed costs. They feel frustrated. They feel overwhelmed.

They feel like failures as parents because they can't provide for their kids. I want you to listen to the episode today to hear both the financial side as well as the psychological side of what Rebecca and Joe talk about. Make sure to listen to the end to hear the follow-up from Rebecca and Joe, which you can get the full version of at iwt.com slash episode 57. You'll also get other bonuses, including my three-step guide to buying a house.

Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. Let's jump in. You know, if you talk about potentially buying a house,

How does that conversation go? Not well. We just have a lot of indecision. Do we have enough? Do we not have enough? Can we afford a house? Can we not afford a house? How much house could we afford? Usually I'll get a text message during the day about how insufferable our current living situation is because we can't just open up a door and let our children run outside. We live in more of an apartment building in a beach town. Okay, so Rebecca, you send a text

Yeah. To him. And you're not happy about your living situation. And then moment in moments. Yeah. I'll send him like a frustrating text. Like this is miserable. I can't do this. This is impossible. Almost like blaming him. Like, you know, he should provide something better for me because the walls are closing in and we need, the kids need something different than this. This is not, I'm trapped. I'm a caged animal. And I'm,

I, yeah, I'm losing my mind basically. By saying all that, what do you expect him to do? I expect him to help me or do something. I don't know what you want me to do. It's such a broken record. It's like, I can't take it anymore. I'm doing everything that I think I could do. I'm not sure how much of our money could actually be allocated towards putting a down payment on a house. I feel like we have enough money. I don't know if it's prudent to move

money from different accounts in our savings to put toward the house. I don't even know if now is a great time to buy a house. I can't deal with the constant everyday fire, 911 fire phone calls or texts when I'm at work. I don't go out and buy a house and then we move into it. It's kind of a group decision. It's a partnership decision. So there's got to be a little bit of ownership there.

I mean, I don't know if we want a house. I don't know if that is going to bring us happiness. You know, I don't know if the grass is always greener. But in those moments, it feels like this situation is not working. You know, we have like a two bedroom apartment and we have a third baby on the way. So are we not giving our kids like the space and the room to grow? Are we not giving our kids what they need because we're scared?

So there's guilt involved. There's guilt involved in it. When I get the phone calls or the text of how terrible it is, like it's hard to turn off the part of my brain that's like, I need to fix this situation immediately. We need to get a different situation. Not even, you know, to make it so much better, but to just make sure that these phone calls don't happen anymore because they're stress inducing. And it's like a little bit of a hopeless, helpless situation to be in. It doesn't feel good. I don't think it's healthy.

Um, and it's not, it hasn't moved us forward. I feel like we're at the point where it's got to change. Like if it continues, if we're a year later in the same position, we've taken it too far. Okay. Got it. Like, right. It's almost like if we get out of this right now and find the next situation and it's good, then boom, we squeezed all the juice out of this lemon and great. Let's move on to like the next little chapter of our like family's life.

Already so many clues in just the first couple of minutes here from Rebecca and Joe. You can hear that this is a repeated dynamic, that Rebecca gets frustrated and sends these texts and Joe just looks at his phone and sighs and starts to ignore it. It's no surprise that couples disagree on money. That's totally normal. Every couple does.

but it becomes a little bit more problematic when you have a pattern where one person is consistently taking on the role of being frustrated and the other person is looking at their phone and ignoring it. That's a problem. Let's keep digging in here. I think really, yeah. You know, like a third party to know what we actually can afford, um, and moving forward on some big decisions as far as like a living situation. Um,

potentially like buying a home and how much we can afford and what that looks like. I have one foot out of here and one foot in here because I'm scared. If we can't afford a house, what will our living style be like? What will we have to give up to afford that house? And is that going to make us happy? We're at a decision point.

We've been in this place before. Last year, we were in a very similar situation where our lease was going to end and we had to figure out where we wanted to go. There was a lot of uncertainty. We were preparing ourselves to part ways with where we live because we do love where we live. We love the lifestyle, but we're growing out of the space that we're in.

We're not on the same page. I'm looking at different options. And sometimes when I bring up some of those options with my wife, you know, it's the conversations don't always go very well. What happens when you bring up topics like this with your wife?

I mean, she's pregnant. She's emotional. I love her for it. But it also makes things challenging sometimes when it's... I'm just looking to throw some ideas out on the table, not necessarily like I'm trying to force an issue or put her in a situation that she may not want to be in or project some fear upon it being bad in the future. It's not necessarily the owning of a home or it's just...

shifting our situation, whether it could be a new, really nice apartment or a condo. It doesn't necessarily have... I don't need to own a home. I could rent a condo. It's just a different type of space. So yeah. Different type means bigger?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've gotten emails from our association. Like we hear kids screaming, you know, we hear pounding on the floors, which is true because my, you know, people live underneath us. So we kind of stick out like a, you know, like a sore thumb here. Who's the one who says we need to buy a house? I mean, it's almost as if we're living, like we have to do this. This is some, but we don't necessarily have, you know, if we didn't live, like we needed to do that. Who told you you need to buy a house?

Um, no one, you know, but there's like this, this stipulation, we get a lot of comments like, Oh, still in Asbury and a two bedroom apartment with a third baby. You know, we get a lot of that. A lot of that. Who says that? Friends, family, every barbecue, every family event. You know, people say that to me too. Do they say that to you? They say that to me too. Right. Like it doesn't like just recently, you know, he was like, we need, we need to leave. We need to leave. And I feel bad because I feel like I need him.

I did this to him because I stressed him out so much with two kids in this apartment. And now we just looked at a winter rental in a town over for like six months. So we'd be leaving our apartment, paying more rent. It'd be a house, but it would be for six months and transitioning to babies and an infant. It doesn't sound like a good idea. Making too many financial changes all at once is a big red flag.

To have another baby and to move and to pay way more in rent would not be a good idea. It leaves no room for anything to go wrong. And that is how you get your back up against the financial wall. That is something I want you to avoid at all costs. There is something, you know, and you could correct me if it's, I don't want to open a can of worms, but it's come up that, so our lease is ending, moving in with my in-laws has come up.

you know, that would take away the rent. I mean, I'm sure we'd contribute in some ways with living with them. We have like a little secret, the two of us, like that we actually love our life here, but it's almost like we can't love it because it's not what everyone else is doing. I guess as far as like friends and family are typical, we have a community here that understands the way we live, you know, but. You love your life, but this is a 10 out of 10 financial crisis for you. I don't know that I believe that.

I mean, I feel both ways because I don't... I want something different, but I also... Buying a home and maintaining a home and whatever comes along with that doesn't necessarily sound appealing to me. That doesn't make me feel alive. If you had a magic wand...

what would you want specifically relating to housing? You would have a house by the beach, you know, or in this general area, you know, like right away or, you know,

Yeah, with access to outdoors for my kids or our kids. And yeah, but we love this area. I would want a house one town over with enough outdoor space that we can afford. I want to stay by the beach. The beach is magical for us. It's just, I mean, in a lot of ways, we are living our rich life, but maybe we're not internally always feeling it. Did you catch that? She's literally describing where they live now.

And she said, a lot of ways we are living our rich life, but maybe we're not internally always feeling it. This is a classic pattern of many couples I speak to on this podcast. The common example is people who make a lot of money, but they still feel like they don't have enough. As I always say, your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated with the amount you've got in the bank. Feelings are real, but that doesn't mean they're true.

You might feel something and that feeling is real to you, but it might not necessarily reflect reality. And so with Rebecca, I want to unpack her idea of this rich life. And I want to understand a little bit more about the living situation. There's part of me that like, you know, I, yeah, like it's, it's hard. Cause like, I'm, I'm just, I have mixed emotions. I love it and I hate it. What do you love?

I love that we don't live in suburbia. I love that it's almost, it's like a little mini city. I recently met friends here, like mom friends here, and I love her school. But yeah, but there's really challenging things like, like doing laundry is really complicated and like,

Stuff like that. Like things that sound silly to talk about right now, but they can drive you insane. I don't think they sound silly. I need more support on what I do with our daughter all day and where we, you know, help with finding her school. I feel like their entertainment and their daily life is on me from 6 a.m. until, you know, 6 p.m. until he's home. And that's a lot. Like I am their childhood right now and I'm not enough, you know, and...

their safety, you know, I can't take them both outside and keep them safe. Sometimes, you know, they're just, it's not a safe, you know, it's busy streets and yeah. So a two and a four year old, like down an elevator out into like streets that aren't, you know, like there's no like controlled environment. So it tends to be challenging. Um, in this situation that we're in, like there's no outdoor space. Okay. Do you know what you want?

I don't know what, how does, do we, does anyone know what they want until, you know, I, yes. I don't. Yeah. Yeah. I, not everybody knows everything about what they want. Yeah. A lot of people know where they want to live or what type of car they want to drive or where they want to eat out on Thursday night. Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, I, I want to live here. I want to live by the beach where this area, I have a lot of friends here. I'm happy here. I love,

But yeah, so I want to live here, just not necessarily this apartment. I'm fascinated that Rebecca sends panicky texts about needing to move somewhere. But when I ask a few questions, she and Joe both reveal that they love where they live. One big clue here is all the people around them telling them they need to move. After a while, that gets to you. That pressure to buy a house is real.

But those same people whispering in your ear rarely talk about the actual costs of buying a house and the myths of buying a house. These are things that you need to know for the biggest financial purchase of your life. So if you're curious, I put together a three-step guide for uncovering the common myths about buying a house. You can get it at iwt.com slash episode 57.

You know how many people's conscious spending plans I see every week? What's fascinating is the categories of spending, especially the ones where people spend way more than they think they do. For example, subscriptions. Let's take a look at some recent numbers on how much people spend on subscriptions. $100 a month on subscriptions. $205 a month. That's from someone spending 76% of their take home each month on fixed costs.

$211 a month, $147 a month, and $487 a month. This is literally thousands of dollars a year, and most of us have forgotten about all the subscriptions we are actually paying for.

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Part of the reason why we haven't bought a home is because I haven't felt like I had a large note down payment to put on it. And I don't want to touch any money that's gaining interest. If you don't buy a house, you're not moving forward. Does that sound like something either of you might say? Yeah. No, you know what? I do feel that way. Yeah.

You know, going to have a third kid. It's cool for another year or two. But like past that, like I don't see that as being a good father. Why? Because I loved growing up in a house with a basketball hoop in the driveway. And I lived outside riding my bike and, you know, climbing trees and getting in the dirt. And I know my kids are going to love that, too. I just know it.

I would definitely feel like a failure. Anything that is letting them down is a failure to me. And to you, them not being able to be outside, climb trees, that would be a failure? It means I'm doing enough to support. It means I'm making enough. I'm working hard enough. I'm doing the right thing. I can do this. I can handle it.

You're a what? Provider. Yeah. What's the synonym for a provider in your mind? Who are the people who provide? Fathers. Yeah. And if they don't provide, they are what? Not a father. Really? I mean, I think you're a father one way or another. No matter what. Not enough, not doing enough, not cutting it. This idea about a real man, a real father providing. I want to understand what

providing means to you. So you want your children to be able to go outside, climb trees, be outdoorsy. I get that. It sounds great. Where does ownership fit into that? I'm flexible with that. I really am because I'm not a keeping up with the Joneses kind of guy. I look at no judgment. I look at people around me who are very concerned about our living situation and

while they're living their own. And I don't envy a damn thing about their lives and no competition. I want everyone to have a great life. My new thing now, because I have a third, you know, we're pregnant with our third baby, as you know, and

I immediately say to people, oh, this is the last baby. This was an accident. We didn't mean for this to happen. And it hurts to say that. Like, I'm going to cry because I'm pregnant and emotional. Why do you say that? Because I don't feel like I have provided the right, you know, there's like a shame involved in it. Why?

And, you know, I did always want three kids. The truth is, is that I'm one of three. I always wanted three kids my whole life. What's the shame? I don't understand. I guess the shame is just like, how can you be pregnant again? Like, we don't live in a very kid-friendly apartment building. It doesn't feel that way. You know, people don't... And it doesn't... Yeah, I guess...

Like we don't have that. We don't, we don't have the big SUV yet. We've got all the moms of three have, and you know, Rebecca, do you see how deep this goes? I do. Yeah. The fact that it does go deep and it, I want to say to people like, yeah, I'm pregnant with our third kid and I've always wanted three kids and we're excited. Can we, I haven't said that one time. Can we do it right now?

I mean, yeah, I'm excited because like, this is my dream is to actually have a third kid. Like I actually can't believe I got to a point in my life where I, this even was possible. Think of the layers of how deep it goes. Yeah. You told me that you are happy. You're one of three. You always wanted three. The two of you look very joyful when you talk about your children.

It's sad that you feel you describe words like shame because you don't have some certain physical thing that probably doesn't even fit into your lifestyle right now. In the same breath, Rebecca tells me that having a third kid is her dream, but she's ashamed because they don't have the SUV that all the other moms have. What? Keep listening. Rebecca, what would you say? When do you talk about the numbers?

I, I, we don't, you know, I mean, we did have a therapy session and, and he did, he did have a book and he had it all written out, but I didn't, I didn't look at it. I didn't, um, I just didn't look at it. Any reason why? Um, I, it just makes me scared. I guess there's something about change or just knowing, I don't know. There's something like a, I don't know why I didn't look at it. I just, I,

Maybe I don't want to know. Because what? Because that would probably shift how I have to live, you know? And if you had to shift that, what would that mean? I don't know. I mean, you know, talking to you now, I'm like, oh, you know, maybe I see it as, I saw it as negative. Like I'm not willing to give these things up or, you know. But who says you have to give anything up? Well, no one, but, you know, sometimes when you actually see what you have and you,

Right now, I just have a credit card. I'm not actually looking at a bank account. I'm not looking at it coming out. When you can see things sometimes, you see where you need to shift it. But if you're not looking, then you can just keep doing what you're doing. So how much money do you think that you have? I don't know. I honestly don't know. I have no idea. I would literally be making up a number. I have no idea. So you have a four-year-old, a two-year-old, and a baby on the way. You feel stressed out and overwhelmed.

And you have no... Essentially, no help. I mean, you don't have somebody coming over, cleaning, helping. On a daily basis. Yeah. Yeah. And you never...

looked at the numbers of how much you have. I've never looked at the numbers. Does it sound weird saying out loud? It sounds so weird. I've never actually... Just recently, I said to him, can I get an online? Because with my old debit card, I would look at this. I'd look at it online like, oh, swipe here. And you can see like, oh, wow, I spent a lot of money there when you see it. But just recently, I did ask him, can I get the mobile to...

Can I get it on my phone too? So I can actually see what's coming out of the card. There's not like a major fear with me, but I do think that there is a reason why I kept it separate. And like, I, what is the reason? Because I didn't want him to see all the little things. Cause he would probably make comments. Cause now, now he'll make comments here and there. Like, Oh, I see you ordered. I got a charge from this place, you know, like what?

Like Old Navy or like... How much would you say you spend per month on supplements? At least $250. Okay. At least $250, maybe $300. Are you nervous telling me that number? No, I mean...

You know, I, it's scary because I do believe in them, you know? So I'm like, it's like a crackhead, you know, you don't want someone to take your crack, you know, or tell you, you know, you don't, you. Well, I don't know if fish oil is the same as crack. I'll be honest. I lied the other, I didn't lie, but I added something on for my sister too. Cause I get them discounted and she then was me, you know, I'll, I'll dance around the fact that, you know, or I'll say, oh, that's going to last us like six months. I, you know, I ordered a bunch so I could, you know,

But you lie. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I guess you can. I mean, I have ordered stuff for my sister. So I altered the truth. But yeah, I guess. I just want to point out for everyone listening that Joe has been literally covering his mouth in laughter for the last two minutes. He's now covering his eyes with he's like almost crying. He's got a vein popping out on his forehead. He's been dying to speak up. He cannot wait. Joe, please. What do you have to say?

I'm fascinated by this. I'm absolutely fascinated. I'm not even mad, but part of me feels like I should be because I mean, a lie is a lie. Yeah. It's just not a good idea. It's not healthy. I don't want you to feel like you have to lie to me. That's crazy. Yeah. I don't, I feel like you interpret me like I'm a scary monster. I don't want you having those feelings. I want you to know that I'm not that kind of guy that's like,

that's like that. I feel like you know that, but I don't know. Yeah. I mean, it basically, I guess there's guilt involved in the fact that I, you know what I mean, like 65,000 a year or something. And now I don't. And now I haven't altered the spending. I haven't changed. I haven't spent less, probably more because we have kids now. So I just, I worry that, you know, we now we're out that income and we're

there's no shift in the spending. It's the same for me, you know? So can we afford to, yeah. Do you remember what he just said? Um, that he's lenient and that he doesn't like he not really, I mean, basically that he was lenient and that he feels bad that I have anxiety about it. And what was your answer? Um, I think my answer was that I haven't

changed anything in the past. I haven't. How did those two connect? Because that's why I feel, I hide things, I guess, right? I don't feel like I'm being honest, you know? And I feel, I guess that's why I feel like it's, I don't shy away from him or lie because I'm scared of him because he's mean about it. It's because I, it's my own internal struggle with

you know, am I going to get us into debt or am I, you know, not providing, you know, am I being selfish? Do you see why you have been reluctant to even ask the question, how much do we have? I think it's just,

fear based of knowing or maybe fear of change, fear of no change. Fear of being responsible or having to do anything differently. Yeah. Yeah. Think about that. That's very profound. The idea that if you engage with these numbers, if you even know how much you have, then what is the implication?

responsibility. Yeah. And I put that on him because I'm like, no. Exactly. I think Rebecca talks a lot to escape her own contradictions because it's easier to talk and to deflect the problem than to take a very quiet, candid look inside. She texts Joe about needing to move, but she loves their neighborhood. She asks about getting access to their money, but when she has it, she doesn't look at it.

and she lies about purchases. All of this, of course, keeps Joe off base. Can you imagine if Joe was the one hiding purchases and sending angry texts and demanding things but then not looking at them? How would you perceive this conversation differently? Something to think about. For now, I want to understand where Rebecca learned about money. What happened with you and money when you were younger? Like, you know, my parents just...

We didn't, it was, it was a scarcity thing. Like we didn't have enough. It was always stress. It was, you know, my mom worked at like Kmart when we were little. Like, I mean, she eventually got a better job, but you know, just, yeah, money was very stressful. I was raised with a lot of guilt around money. Money was always guilt. It was like, you, you didn't, you just, it was, you just felt guilty with money was a guilt. It was like a combination of, of that.

I took a lot of the blame my whole life, like for my family and everything that went wrong. You know, I, so I, I guess I, you know, give it all to him now. Like, I don't want it. I I've done, I've, I've been there, you know, my whole life was, it can't be on me. It can't be out. Cause it was on, it felt like it was on me even as a kid, you know, my dad was like a state worker and my mom was a secretary, you know? So they, yeah, they just lived very, they were very minimal. They lived very minimal.

My mom also had, you know, she's very like, we don't spend money, you know, we very frugal, you know, and I guess there's like that too, you know, like she's in me, you know, like you don't pay for childcare. Like you don't, you know, see if these whispers sound familiar. You don't pay for childcare. Yeah. She didn't, but yeah. You don't stay in an apartment when you have three kids.

Yeah. What else do they whisper? You need everything that they have or the pool, you know, like,

You got to get your kids in exactly what we got our kids in. They got to get your kids have to be in dance now that, you know. Yeah. It's endless. You got to get the kids doing this. You got to get the kids doing that. It's crazy. I mean, yeah. And we're not we don't we're pretty good at not buying into a lot of that stuff. You know, we were pretty solid on that. I don't think so.

No. Am I the only one who's been here for the last hour and a half of this conversation? What are you talking about? The house. No, you're right. What are you talking about? Rebecca, this is a story you tell yourself. Are you hearing yourself? All right. You're right. You're right. Yeah. Okay. You are driven by what people around you are telling you. Yeah. The mom guilt thing is affecting you in so many ways that I...

is not even apparent. And the whole point of my conversation with you is I want you two to decide what you want. Rebecca and Joe tell themselves stories. Rebecca and Joe are experts at telling themselves stories about themselves. Oh, we don't really get influenced by other people.

Literally everything they have said so far is based on what other people expect of them. You need to be doing this. You can't do that. You should be doing this. And if you allow yourself to be surrounded by that and to believe that and to be influenced by that, then it can be a very dissonant experience for you if you want something different.

Anyone who's grown up in a deeply religious household knows what I'm talking about. Anyone who's grown up with parents who are deeply frugal and you don't want to live that kind of life knows what I'm talking about. And that is exactly what we are seeing here from Rebecca and Joe. And rather than realize this is what's going on, they deflect. They point at other things. Well, Joe's not doing this and I don't have access to that.

And they even tell themselves stories such as, well, I'm not really influenced by the people around us. These are all stories. What you should take away from this is to ask yourself, what stories do I tell myself about money?

Write them all down. If you get stuck, you can create one called a positive list of stories and a negative list of stories. What are the positive ones? Oh, if I work hard, I can make more. What are the negative ones? Well, I'm not really good with money. I'm not good at math. I can't earn more. I don't know how to invest, et cetera. And then go to sleep, wake up the next morning, have a little perspective and say, which of these are factually true and which of these are just stories I tell myself? You might be surprised.

One of the worst feelings in life is feeling stuck.

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You know, it's how I was raised. It's just how I was raised. That was the model I had. And I really respected that model. Tell me about that. I mean, my dad did whatever he had to do and he made it look really good. It didn't mean it was the most healthy thing for him. It didn't mean it was the most healthy thing for his partner. There's a lot of enabling that happens there. But like when shit's got to get done, you know,

You know, my inclination is not necessarily to rally the troops all the time. It's like, if no one wants to come, then I'm going on my own. Okay, got it. And I'll do what I got to do. Joe, what was it like? What do you remember about money as a kid? Very conservative. I grew up more of a religious family. Mom stayed at home. Dad worked for the government. So we had needs, but not wants.

But we also had a big family. So we were, you know, we had a lot of people that, you know, contributed. But my dad always, he just always made it work. He's been playing whatever game he's needed to play to make it work. My mom was the striver, the pusher, the, we're going to get, you know, she would get her way and he would just go along with it.

and do whatever we needed to do to make it work. That's how it was. We always knew that was an issue. We always kind of like sympathized with my dad and we didn't always agree with how my mom spent money. Like what? Just like very frivolous, very frivolous. Like just didn't agree with it. Anything you remember? Any example?

I can provide one, but it's, it's always the spouse that knows their, the other person's family better. It is like, Rebecca's like, I got one. She's just itching to get, just weigh me in. Just weigh me in. Rebecca, go ahead. Go ahead. What's your example? Um,

His parents are in like their later 60s, 70s. And I still think they owe money on their house. And they're putting in like an in-ground pool, like a very fancy in-ground pool. Because his mom has a vision of like the grandkids swimming in the pool. Joe, was your dad a short-term thinker with money or a long-term thinker with money?

No, he is. He's an all every time thinker about everything. That's how that's, that's his brain. What does that mean? He's an engineer who ran hospitals. So you're dreaming up everything that could go wrong and then planning for it. Okay. But then how come he ended up still owing money in his sixties or seventies? Um, yeah.

You'd have to ask him that he, he, he made peace with it. He, he still has a plan. Um, they're moving in the right direction. I would say like, there's been some major breakthroughs, but they took 60 years to happen. And as far as at this point in their life, they, they can print, they pretty much have the right to do whatever the hell that they want. What lessons do you think you took away from your parents when it came to money?

In a lot of ways, I learned how not to be. But then I also may have overcompensated a little bit. I've gotten real tight, not tight with money, but I think it's smart. I think my dad is smart. Don't buy things you don't need. I never bought things I don't need. Things don't appeal to me. But my mom made a really nice home too. What's the part where you learn not to do?

Mostly the spending aspects of it, not to live outside your means. I think when you're going to give, you should have it to give. If you don't have it to give, then unless it's a one-off, like there's a compelling reason where you just put your hand in your pocket. I believe that if you don't got it, then maybe get yourself in a different position

I totally agree. I think that's smart. But you also mentioned spending that, you know, we should, you intimated that you should keep track of spending. Sometimes you got to part with money and maybe we, you know, I don't give myself permission to make purchases sometimes too. Like the more money in the bank, the better I feel. I always want more money in the bank. I don't necessarily want to buy anything with it. And when are you going to feel good about the money you have in the bank?

When someone convinces me I should feel good about it. Well, who's going to do that? You would a little bit. What is financially prudent to have enough saving? We got an emergency fund. I'm lucky to have a job where there's so much forced savings. There's a pension, there's forced savings in an annuity, there's forced savings for

emergencies. And then I, on top of that, force myself to save. But we're also not moving forward. I'm just the mom who's running around going to preschool. That's what I'm doing. And the crazy part is that I'm capable. I'm not a clueless person. I'm a very calculated person with things. But for some reason, the most important thing in my life, I'm missing. All right.

So you filled out a conscious spending plan. How was that, by the way, to fill that out together? He did it. I filled it out. I had to do it at work. Okay. Red flag number one. I think that we're at a point now where we used to be saving more and now we're kind of like just at like status quo. Okay. So have you seen these numbers, Rebecca? No. Okay.

Uh, do you have the document in front of you? There's a theme here. No. And Joe, you pick up on that and you take on the role of the hero. Yeah. So she's avoidant and you go, oh yeah, I'll do it. In fact, I'll fill out this conscious spending plan because I don't want you to have to worry about it. I'll fill it out. Right. Can I be honest about that?

Yeah. It's not that I was taking it off her plate. The truth is I knew she wouldn't have anything to do with it and I just had to do it. It wasn't like, I'm not the hero guy. Joe, that's exactly what being a hero is. If you didn't get this conscious spending plan, first of all, the whole point of this is to do it together. Yeah. That's the whole entire point.

If she refused to do it, we wouldn't have had this call. So there was actually consequences. Right. And instead of letting her face those and not just being punitive, but say, hey, we have this opportunity together. You did what? I took care of it. Yeah. And I'll be honest, I did almost sabotage the meeting. Like before it, I there was a lot of, you know, almost sabotaging this experience, you

Um, you know, so it's interesting now that I'm like connecting it all. Like it wasn't because I made the day horrible. I was hungry. I had to drive the kids to his parents' house. He inconvenienced me. He should have, he should have waited till a better day to schedule this. And he wasn't, you know, focused on my needs and all that, you know, or, but I think the truth is that I don't want to be responsible. Yeah.

This is something I've ran from for years, you know? So I think that, you know, I knew tonight would probably change something. This is quite a moment, don't you think? As Rebecca's saying this, she's realizing that she does not even have access to her own motivations. In other words, she behaves in certain ways that she's not even fully aware of. Well, we all do to some extent, maybe not as egregiously as Rebecca here, but we all do this.

I personally think it's pretty amazing to hear Rebecca realize that live in front of all of us. This is the beginning of change, to be able to make those connections and realizing why she behaved in a certain way. And then, of course, it takes a lifetime to be able to unpack those and likely to work with a therapist and other professionals to understand how to connect those

your emotions with your behavior. But for now, this is quite a major revelation. I want to shift gears now and talk more about their finances. You guys want to look at some numbers? How about that? Yeah. Go ahead and open that up. I'd like for you to read off row seven. It says total net worth in the conscious spending plan. $351,000. I don't even know how we have that much, but... What's going through your head right now? Um...

That I'm living, I'm just, because I'm avoiding this, I don't actually realize, I'm actually don't realize what we actually can have. I think I'm getting more by hiding from it, but I'm actually getting less. Well said, that's powerful. Right there, another amazing moment. Rebecca finally opens up the conscious spending plan, looks at it and realizes they have more than she even realized.

For years, she's been panicking about money. And now she finally sees the amount they have. Of course, we all know that won't change the way she feels about money today. But at least she can realize that there's a disconnect between how she feels and what they have in the bank. Now, I want to summarize their numbers for you. They make $7,800 a month for a total of $93,600 a year. Recall again that Rebecca is on maternity leave. They spend 105% of

of their income on fixed costs. So I want to zoom in on that home expense because that is the key driver here. And again, if you want to learn more about housing expenses, should you buy a house? What are the myths around them? How much can you afford? Get the guide that I put together for you. It's free, iwt.com slash episode 57.

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So I am adding your rent plus your utilities, and I'm dividing it by your gross monthly income to see that you're at 33%. So that's pretty much the high end of what you can afford for housing.

So remember how you were all talking about going and buying this mansion and all that stuff? Yeah. Well, if you can find one for less than $23.50 a month, great. Right. Do you think that's going to happen? No. No, not right now. Exactly. So sometimes our decisions are made for us. You can talk about it all you want, but the numbers say you can't afford it. Not with the current income, one income that you've got. This is what we're driving towards. We need clear, simple money rules.

Yeah. Like even diapers, because diapers are part of groceries. It's like, how much are we spending on diapers a month? And can it be cheaper? Because I'm buying them randomly. So I think if we just bulk bought them, it's insane how much I actually spend on diapers. But yeah. Joe, do you see what's happening right here? What do you notice is happening right here?

She's thinking of more frugal ways and other ways to save money. Yeah, she's taken ownership. Rebecca, it's awesome to watch you do this. There's something very powerful happening here. I want to make sure that I call it out. Rebecca has been the one who's been frustrated about finances, sending these panicked text messages, asking for access to the money. But when she actually gets it, she doesn't look at it.

So something is not quite clicking here. But what we also learn is that Joe is playing a part. Whenever there's a financial issue, what does he do? He takes charge. Even for this episode, for the conscious spending plan, they were supposed to both do it together. She didn't want to do it. She caused some issues that day. And so what did he do? He said, I'll take this off your plate.

So you can see that in this case, it definitely takes two to tango. But what we just saw is Rebecca actually engaging with money. Joe's not trying to save anything. He's not trying to do it for her. She is stepping up. This is a magical moment. When you look at these numbers and you think about where you spend your time and your energy, where you are frustrated, do you see anything that surprises you? That we have the money for childcare. Hmm.

Because that's what is, I mean, that's my 10. It's not the house. It's how are my children spending their life? And does it have to be the best moment every second of their life? No. But, you know, like we can afford to get them more care, you know, and me. And I think that that would also just transform the relationship because I wouldn't be so...

uptight, you know, and stressed, I'd have a personality again, you know, because I don't have one right now. I had one, but I've been living so under living for so long now that I don't even have a concept of that. What would it take for you to get that personality back? I think an extra set of hands. It doesn't really take much, you know, just to my kids need a one-on-one. So just someone else to come.

This is one of my favorite things to do is to use money to provide immediate relief.

We all know what it's like to be overwhelmed. It could be at work with tons of emails and you just don't have time to be able to think creatively. Certainly as a parent, being overwhelmed with two kids and another on the way, it's very difficult to think creatively or to be able to have any time for yourself. And so to be able to buy some of that time back would be one of the most rewarding things that Rebecca and Joe can do with their money.

So Rebecca, you say you cannot afford a babysitter. I never actually allowed myself to do the math. You have a four-year-old. Four years you've gone without doing that back of the napkin calculation. Well, let's say we got one for $20 an hour and I used her for like three hours. So that's $60 with six and three days, five days, all five days. So what's 60 times five? Is that $300? $300.

It's not that much money. I've never actually said that out loud. Yeah. I've never actually said the number out loud of what it would cost. Yeah. Why do you think that is? It's the same way that I won't look at the sheet that he wrote out or I won't look at, you know, I don't have the app. Maybe there's a level of like, I'm a failure, you know, because I can't take care of my kids by myself. I need to pay someone else to help to do that with me. Don't get me wrong. We definitely have help from in-laws and parents and stuff, but

Um, but yeah, as far as like, you know, I think I'm angry and frustrated with him because I, I can't do it and I'm angry at him for it, but I also haven't owned it and said, you know, so there's a level of just like being passive aggressive with the whole situation. Well, Rebecca, you were about to convince him to buy a house when it turns out that

a $20 an hour assistant for five days a week. Yeah. I mean, the difference in spend is like a million dollars. I know. I never actually, I know it's true. So do you see how you can go through life? I'm talking decades. I'm talking millions and millions of dollars and never have these really simple conversations. Yeah. We can do it.

There's nothing stopping us from... I feel like a nanny is the solution. I don't want to talk about it in terms of like, here's the problem. This is the solution. But I feel like we're on the right... We're getting on the same page. Or what is the actual problem? It's not necessarily where we live. What I'm trying to do with this exercise with Rebecca and Joe is to elevate them above the day-to-day frustrating emotions of money.

It's easy to be frustrated at things. Why did you buy that? Why are diapers so expensive? Why can't we get a house? And on and on and on. Every single one of us has had some sort of disagreement about money and some sort of frustration. That's normal. But if you stay there, you could blink your eyes and it's 40 years later and you are still arguing over the same $3 questions. It's one thing to feel frustrated, but

Isn't it almost unbelievable that Rebecca has never run a back of the napkin calculation? That is because it's often...

magnetic. It's often hard to escape these feelings that are so frustrating and almost toxic. They pull you back. This is why you see a lot of people who are addicted to hate because it gives them something. It gives them a feeling of indignation, a feeling of meaning, a feeling of righteousness. And so they can spend their whole lives there. And I'm just talking about financially, it could be politically, etc.,

But my job is to help elevate that and to help them realize, okay, you can feel that way. I'm not arguing that you feel frustrated, but let's also take a look at the numbers. Maybe there's a solution that works. Now, those solutions aren't always present. If somebody goes, I feel I want to buy two private planes and I'm looking at their numbers, they make $105,000 a year. You're not going to buy two private planes. I'm sorry. That's reality. But a lot of the time, we might be able to solve some of these feelings of frustration or other

very hot emotions by doing a little bit of analysis. And that is where money and psychology can work hand in hand. No, my mind never went there because it was more in like a get out of the crazy situation. Do you know why you immediately go to that?

Because that's what made me feel like we need to move on more than anything is the discomfort and the way that she's expressed it to me repeatedly over such a long period of time and with the emotions and the words on the screen that she has, has impacted me.

Yeah. And who else in your life was the fixer, the problem solver? Oh, my dad. His dad. Yeah. And what was the role of your mom? What was she doing when your dad had to fix the problems? I mean, I can't say she didn't get her hands dirty herself because she absolutely did. She didn't just bark orders. She, you know, she ripped up carpets and

whatever else she wanted done too and got her hands dirty. But she was the one... I don't think my dad's ever even had a want or desire other than just please my mother. Right. And what did you say earlier about money? About what you spend it on? My money is our money.

I spend money on gas, tolls, food, necessities, and that's it. Joe, do you see any similarities here? Of course. The beautiful part is you have the chance to write your own story. Both of you together.

Yeah. And I heard it. The one thing I heard consistently is that both of you love your lifestyle. Yeah. You live in a great area. You love the beach. I think you described it as magic. Yeah. I know what that's like. I'm very particular about the neighborhoods that I live in, like down to the intersection. Cause I know the energy and what I want. And I know that I don't want to walk three blocks for that. I know what you're talking about, but

I hear you both being guided by a lot of frustration, a lot of overwhelm. Yeah. And I hear a lot of contradictions. Yeah. We don't keep up with the Joneses, but we're probably being affected by our friends and family. It's a 10 out of 10, but it's actually not that big of a deal. It's okay.

lots of contradictions. Now, the good news is that we all have contradictions with money. Otherwise, we'd just be robots. The beauty is in the contradiction. So I don't mind it at all. My job is to try to help you cut through all these stories that you tell each other and you tell yourself and get to the story that is most meaningful to you right now. With this lease coming up, we can just

We don't even have to sign a year lease. So you can just keep going monthly. We pay our rent. There's no major deadline here. Maybe nothing needs to change in this instant just because the lease is up and just because we have another baby on the way. I mean, the baby sleeps in the room with us anyway, whether we have an extra room or not for the first eight months. So it's not like we need a bedroom. Our kids share a room and they love it.

We can be okay right now. It doesn't have to change right now. There are other things that we can change, I think. It doesn't necessarily have to be buying a house. What else can you change? How can we get our kids outside? What can we put them into? What can we invest in differently? So if we're going to hold off on the house, let's invest in

getting our son on a basketball team or, I mean, he's two, but he, you know, he's whatever, you know, or our, you know, a school for our daughter, you know, like, so she's busy all day. So I'm at home in a, in this apartment with them, you know, there, it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, a laundry service, you know, maybe we can invest in a laundry service. So this way we can

Not worry about bringing those laundry to my parents' house. Great. My immediate vision is I still want to stay by the beach. I want to... I think we put too much pressure on ourselves and made this... Being that there was a deadline coming up, we really... We succumbed to the pressure or succumbed to the pressure. How did you do that? Just...

Because rather than consciously making a decision at any point of what we wanted to do or could do, we were letting the deadline be the decision maker slash driver for us. So rather than being proactive, we're being reactive. We're not taking total responsibility, I feel like.

If we focus on me and you being good and me and you being good with what we're doing for the kids and focus our attention and resources on that, then I think the rest is going to be

I think the rest will take care of itself. I know there's still decision-making that needs to be made along the line because that's all we do is make decisions all day long. But if we could get rid of the crap, I think it would make space for us to be honest and open with one another. I don't want the fear conversations. I don't want any lies.

You don't have to be afraid of me. I don't want to have to be afraid of you. I don't want to be so reactive to your emotional bouts of frustration. Yeah. Great. I love that you are now getting creative about how you can get to your rich life. You both have a rich life vision. I'm starting to hear some of it come into focus. A lot of it is very aligned, which that's good.

The more you design your rich life to be different for what you want and what's right for your family, the more it's going to become confusing, even ridiculous to the outside world. That's okay. Yeah. It's not their rich life. It's yours. No, that's... I appreciate that very much. I've never thought of... I've actually never thought of it like that. There was something as a mother I needed to give my kids, but it doesn't have to be a fenced-in backyard. It could be...

a program, you know, it doesn't have to be what, you know, it's up to you. It might be more important for you to take a huge one month long trip every year with your family or to send them to tennis camp or to have your laundry done every single day and have somebody come over to help you clean the house. That's up to you. Right. But what I kind of love as I start to really think about this and, and I talk about it with my wife and the two of you talk about it. Oh my God.

it suddenly feels like we are free from the shackles of society's expectations. Right. I, yeah, I feel, yeah. What would the two of you do if you were totally free of society's expectations? I think I would actually make this a home. Like I put up pictures and, and, and that's me, you know, he's, he's pushed for that, you know, and I've always done like, no, I had one foot in and one foot out because we need to go do what everyone else is doing. But yeah,

And this all doesn't mean that this is the home for us right now. You know, anything can change tomorrow. But for this moment and for, you know, tomorrow, it's... But yeah. So I think just probably, you know, investing a little bit more in the actual environment that we are in. That sounds really nice. Yeah. Just making it, you know. Joe, what about for you? I mean...

I'm happy to see a more relaxed look on my wife's face. Do you like it here? Could you see yourself? The truth is, and you'll probably attest to this, when I change my mind, I change my mind. I can change it back with the mind state that I changed my mind into to be able to make this happen. And I'm not saying it's a successful strategy. It was, no, we're out of here. We're going to get out of here. And that's it.

That was my mind frame until even being posed this question. Can I, you know, if things changed around here and we made it a little bit nicer and we made it a little bit more organized, we do it the way that we should have done it for the past couple of years, then yeah, I would feel a lot better living here without sacrificing or giving up the life that we do have.

And honestly, our kids love it here too. My daughter is like... I mean, she says, this is my home. I don't want to leave my home. And there's something to the things that she says. Not that we're going to base all our decisions on our four-year-old Oracle, but her parents too. And she's got good sense.

And, you know, if we make it better here for us, it'll be better for them. They don't care. They don't know the difference. They don't need anything other than like us being more calm and, you know, to do the things that we do.

And living here forces us to get outside, I think, a lot more than people that do live in houses. Like we live outside because we're forced to get outside. It's in a way it's like a forced healthy scenario. I believe that 100 percent. But where I think the disconnect is, you know, maybe investing in some help for you is

to be able to get the kids out in a way that's like an extra set of hands with the kids, an extra heart to love on them and play with them. And then you're not by yourself having to do it all alone. I think that that would be money well spent is finding a nanny or a mom helper and legitimately pulling the trigger on that. I think it's really beautiful to hear you both look at

your living situation with a totally different lens. We've, by purchase by purchase, agonized over things, spent way too much energy and emotions on stuff that should have never happened. And if we can align on this and just know what our spending plan is and stay within it, I think it'll be like taking that level of control over our finances, leave powerful and we can find out what it is that we can actually afford.

I feel like it's not even you. I feel like whatever is preventing you from hearing and listening to me is not necessary. It's not a choice. I feel like there's just something, some program that's running, some defense mechanism, some something. But what I said before was that I don't want to live in a world of blame or fault or anything. It's just like two little detectives. Like, huh? Why, you know...

what's going on right now, calming ourselves down to talk about it, to get to the bottom of it. And whenever we feel blame or words come out that are describing blame or some dynamic like that, that's the trigger. Oh, wait, that old thing's happening again. Let's calm down and

Just get out of the blame fault thing because the blame fault thing is a huge barrier to freedom and everything. And I don't know if I can... I want to be able to do my part as a husband and a partner and a friend. That's what we should be investing our money in is helping with...

Or seeking the right help with those kinds, with specifically blame. I've thought of that, like it's come up like a bunch of times in this conversation and it's not new to me. It's not like this is something I've never thought of before, but I'm seeing how it comes up in everything. And it is such a block. It's like, I just don't, it's like, you just don't want to be blamed. Somehow you just don't want to feel like it's your fault. And I don't, and I think that's like trauma, to be honest with you.

And I want to help you with it. I don't want to enable it. I don't want to, you know, I don't know specifically what to do or how to do it. You want her to get help. It may or may not be you helping her. You may want to support her, but you want to encourage her to get help, right? Yeah. That's different. Just before we ended the call, Rebecca took ownership in a powerful way.

She asked me about how moving in with the parents might impact their numbers. And the answer was surprising. And it might have solved their financial problem. So how would you simulate living with your in-laws in this conscious spending plan? I don't know what that means. What do you mean? How would it help? Nope. How would you model this out? Or how would you plug...

that decision that you're going to live with your in-laws for a while into the conscious spending plan? I mean, we would just take it out of the fixed spending of rent, right? So we'd have, I mean, technically right now we're spending, I don't know if this is what section this is in, but we're spending 2,500 over a month. Yep. So we took that away. And what would it turn into? Nothing. I mean, whatever. We could throw in here and there for them, but they're not going to make us

Just give me the number. What would it turn into? Zero. Correct. Zero. Joe, do you notice what I'm doing here? Yeah. What am I doing? It's hard to stay quiet.

Joe was literally covering his mouth like he was putting his own muzzle on himself. I kind of loved it. I know, but then it's also not my rich life. So I don't know. I mean, I don't. I want you to see it for yourself. I don't want you to be afraid of the spreadsheet. So Rebecca, you're doing awesome. Can you, can you be my guest please and plug in that number into the conscious spending plan and tell me what changes. Well, it gets us,

out of the literally plug it in. Okay. I mean, then I'm going to have to go to my pen because, um, well, what we were spending. So the, I don't know. So take your time. Do you have the spreadsheet open? I just did, but now I lost it. Okay. Open it up. Notice by the way, I think unconsciously, Rebecca, what you're doing right now is you're trying to find a way to avoid typing these numbers in. So you're talking, do you notice that?

Yeah. Okay. Wait, am I on the right one? Current spending plan? Go to conscious spending. There's tabs at the bottom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I got it. Okay. So now net monthly income is 5,200. So just subtract 2,200 from that. Look at row seven.

What do you see on row seven? Oh, rent and mortgage. Okay. Rent, mortgage, right? Now, my question for you, Rebecca, is how would you simulate going to live with your in-laws in this conscious spending plan? I don't understand the question. How would that factor in? Yes. How would that factor in? I mean, it would take- Not looking for talking. I'm looking for you to make the change on the conscious spending plan.

This reminds me of when I went to interview at Microsoft. And when you go to interview at one of these tech companies, you go through an entire day of interviews. Now, if they like you, by lunch, they will fill up the rest of your afternoon schedule with even more interviews. So you might end up talking to seven or 10 people. If they don't like you, they'll treat you to lunch and then they'll say, thank you so much. We'd like to take you back to your hotel. That means you didn't get the job.

So one time I went up to interview at Microsoft when I was in college. And they really whine and dine you. They treat you very well. And I finally got to the very senior person. He was like a senior VP. And he looked at my resume and then he turned it over and he goes, resumes are made for writing on. And he started to ask me all these really technical questions. I totally bombed that interview. I tried to talk my way out of it, just like Rebecca is doing right now. But I couldn't.

He wanted the math and I couldn't give it to him. That is exactly what Rebecca is doing here. It would take it to, well, is that the total on the bottom, the fixed cost total? Nope. Remember, that's just adding up all these numbers. Okay. Row 17 is just adding up all these numbers. So you change the numbers that are in brown. That's what you can change. So which number do you want to change if you went to live with your in-laws?

Meaning like where else can we put the money? Nope. What would change on this if you went to live with your in-laws? The rent mortgage. Okay. So change it. So now it's zero. Yeah. Make the change. Tell me what you notice happens. Edit with the sheets app. No, thanks. Okay. Well, I don't know. I don't want to take up too much time. No, no, no. This is the whole point of our conversation. Okay. So I need to figure out how to edit this. Okay.

Okay, I'm going to skip a bunch of logistics and moving rooms. The computer didn't work and the spreadsheet app because I stuck with them. I wanted Rebecca to see how she can take control of the numbers and she can type these numbers in and start to understand how her money affects their living situation. Here's what happened. So what do you notice changed? I'm going to think about this because I'm really not good with the numbers. I see the...

Fixed costs 50% to 60% of take-home. So now it's 53%. And what percent of your fixed costs are you currently spending? Oh my God, 105. Yeah. You're spending more money every month on just this category than you even make. Right. So watch. Change it to zero. Okay. Watch what happens. No, it's basically half. What's the number now? 53%. Yeah. Okay.

So from 105 to 53, what does that tell you? I mean, part of me wish I hadn't asked this question because I don't want to move in with my in-laws as much as I appreciate an offering. But when you look at the numbers, it makes sense. I love it because you're taking ownership. Anytime you talk about money, I'm leaning in and listening. And it excites me because...

You're engaged. You're grappling with it. I'm getting it. Yeah. I'm like 101, but I love it. Honestly, it's my greatest joy is to see someone just seeing the importance of how money affects their life, what they can accomplish. And then I don't care if they're beginners or they're multimillionaire and super advanced. I don't care. But I love that you're engaging and asking questions.

So many fascinating things in this episode with Rebecca and Joe. First, the idea that if you don't truly know yourself, it can be very tempting to make decisions you think will make you happy, but actually won't. For example, Rebecca would send these frantic texts to Joe saying, we have to move, we have to move. But in the end, what we discovered is she needs a little more time for herself. And that's completely understandable.

But without untangling this web of how come you haven't looked at the numbers? Why are you nervous about typing into this spreadsheet? Why does Joe step up and try to solve Rebecca's problems for her instead of both of them engaging as a team?

It's very convoluted. And sometimes you just need somebody on the outside to help you do it. It could be somebody like me. It could be a therapist, which would make a lot of sense for a more long-term engagement. There's a lot of different places to go. But with this podcast, I want to show you and destigmatize the idea of asking for help because it would be very difficult for Rebecca and Joe to have come to these realizations on their own. I received follow-up letters from both Rebecca and Joe.

They are interesting and they're lengthy. So I'm going to excerpt some of the salient parts for you. And for the full letters, you can access them at iwt.com slash episode 57. Rebecca wrote,

Thank you so much for this life-changing experience. What surprised me about the call was how passive Joe came across in regards to all topics. In my experience, his personality is typically more aggressive and loud. He appeared shockingly understanding as I revealed a lot of myself that I've hidden for years. I am also shocked at how much we are spending versus what we make and have.

Most importantly, how scared I have been of Excel for so long and how powerful it was to input a number.

Joe wrote, I was surprised by how committed you were to truly helping my wife. Your persistence and patience was so genuine when frustrating challenges arose and words cannot express how grateful I am for that. You making her delete and input numbers into the cell was very symbolic to me and a major lesson for myself. I can be very quick to jump in and take care of anything and everything that pops up in our lives and it's not always helpful. There's a price we both pay for that. Number

Number one, she doesn't get the opportunity to learn or grow or step up. Number two, I spite myself and the relationship because little resentments build. This dynamic can get way out of control. And quite honestly, I think it has. Thank you for highlighting my role in that dynamic. To read the full letters and get all the bonuses mentioned in this episode, including the three-step guide to buying a house, go to iwt.com slash episode 57.

Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.