183. “I saved $5k for an engagement ring, but she secretly took the money”
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on today's episode.

I prety.

I like that. So seeing that now, it's just like.

what do I do here? Meet thirty old, my hell, and thirty one year old man. They've been dating for seven years, and they are stuck in relationship limbo.

Pretty shocking. Just see the bills that month pared to a paper month.

I, L is a nurse with good income, but he has a count debt that includes credit cards, personal loan and .

student loans, because I literally s in service .

to him. Money is simple. He just follows SHE .

just seems be more responsible and held .

accountable. Yet despite math hel, Michelle is, by the size of her dead, she's worried mad .

is gona leave her worried that he, you can trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future.

Can I help Michelle understand the root of her money problems so he can turn this around and create a rich life with man? Have you ever taken money from him?

I've got a Michelle lin Matthew sp in front me getting ready for our conversation. Let's take a look. Zero assets, forty seven thousand dollars investments, two hundred sixty three k and dead. Since they don't have any assets, it's probably not a mortgage, is likely student loans, maybe there's some credit card dead, maybe a car loan moving down the income. Michelle makes a lot more than Matthew, but as I moved down the fixed cost, I can see the shells.

Debt payment is two thousand five hundred forty two dollars, while Matthews is only one hundred and thirty six, probably suggesting that the bull at at two hundred sixty three thousand dollar dead is Michelle 哼， whats going on here? K, overall, mof fees numbers seem fine. Michelle numbers are a different story.

Investments pre low. Miss lenie spending is high. Could be that she's overspending.

IT seems like IT. That's interesting. Let's see what's going on .

on their application. We don't .

live together. We had to move back home because we he doesn't trust me with money and very scared he will trust me to have kids with me. We aren't engaged and it's holding our future back .

from moving forward.

I want to feel himself worth looks like there are a lot of factors at play, pretty big stakes terms of moving the relationship forward, which is stagnant because of money. We're tugged my marriage. We're tagged my kids. I think this is gonna a pretty substantive discussion. Let's meet Michelle l and Matthew.

you said in one podcast, if psychologically you don't understand why you're doing IT, you're going to continue doing IT and like the patterns with money. And i'm literally in that position where I no excuses for myself anymore because I don't know why it's so big and it's so overwhelming and it's like like it's even bigger than me that I can't even realize IT mean, why like my relationship with money?

What is your relationship with money?

It's not good. It's not really exist. And I worked since such a Young age, I have no money saved. I have a lot of that is just not it's not a healthy relationship. So when I signed up, I was like, I think you're really the only person that can help me. I want to pay off all my credit card debt, pay off all those debts first, and then also pay off my student loans. I feel like i'm constantly um in that to people because of my mistakes and i'm I don't wanna oh anyone you think i'm worried that um he's gonna realize that like he can trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because i'm financially .

irresponsible. Has anyone ever told you that and you can pay off your dead? No one, right? You can. Let's talk about money in your relationship. So how long have you been together?

I'll say about seven years.

okay. And I understand previously you live together, and right now you're not. How long did you live together before you both moved in with your parents?

So we moved in together in like november of twenty, twenty, twenty two. And then we moved out in january of this year.

okay. So basically a little over a year living together. Yeah okay. What happened that caused you to move out?

We came to the realization that will just save money um living at our parents house and and hopefully one day people up or to buy a kind of or how a house or apartment .

spending a lot try to fix the place. But I was like already kind .

of run down and were you both OK moving back .

to your parents? Now I was in okay.

why?

Because I knew that yeah OK.

what about you? Mense for me?

They like my room mates now, but I have no problems with them. How can they accept me for um you know people to come back? They they always trying to help me. And okay, cool.

appreciate. So you moved out. You move back to your parents. So is you and your .

mom and my sister?

Oh, okay. And living situation wise, how is that?

So yeah, it's 好。 Come because I feel like i'm the mom. So i'm the one that cooks and most of the one that spends at the groceries store the most because of that. And so that's one thing I also feel like i'm just like like the one that they go to for everything. Like I just always feels like i'm responsible for like my two kids, my mom and my sister.

you ever have a problem saying no in your life? Oh yeah. A lot of things, right? yeah. personal? yes. professional?

Oh.

yes. OK SHE says.

no.

Me, no problem. yeah.

Is that true?

And sometimes I, I recently realized that I am a people pleaser. You recently realize .

I realized IT in five seconds. I would even you .

just recently realize I remember that I was something to do with like my I don't know who is was my my mom like always doing favors for them um or I feels with my sister where I even like sometimes put IT before even like doing something with man like i'll even be like, no, I have to do this for them and if my sister was having, like he got out of a break up and he really was a lot on her, I would always be there for her instead of light leaving tears house, which is like my place like safe space.

Interesting, the space that the two of you had together was your safe space, even though rental isn't not particularly great.

right? Honestly, wherever like he is.

that's missive space. Wow, that's pretty much the nicest thing here.

nice. Thank you.

And yet you moved back into this mutual household where you are defect to the person who cooks and manages all the responsibility. What do you make of that?

I don't put myself first.

哼， why I don't .

find myself worthy. I feel like when I do these things that they want me to do, if a mixture like easier that. Makes me worthy, I guess, like that gives me a sense of .

worth as a chance to, maybe if I cook this one dinner, maybe I listen to my sister's chAllenges with her relation. Maybe if I do this and that and this, then they will respect me.

Yeah.

do they know maybe you give IT ten more years? Yeah, what do you think? yes. Or maybe there is a completely different way to look at this whole situation. Because while you have put yourself back in that situation, what have you taken yourself out of .

my future with me? Yeah and meanwhile.

what's going on .

all of your finances .

as you moved in presumable, you're saving a lot of money, right? No, not paying rent anymore are you?

I I am.

Oh what how who you parent to?

Um my dad.

okay, uh, how much you .

pay three sixty.

three sixty. What are you paying when you in that we're splitting .

in there was like six fifty.

What like when people moving with their parents? I have no problem people moving with their parents, but i'm like, cool, you're going to save like a thousand box a month, same three hundred about a month. And now you're cooking, doing all this stuff.

Are you basically losing money now living with your family? A hundred percent? This doesn't make any sense to me. Not only the relationship of financial part of IT, what's the health going on right now?

Yeah, not sure. I don't know he is the money.

Yeah, I feel like i'm always losing money being there.

Did you hear when mcelroy said SHE moved back in with her family to save money, but she's actually losing money every month now and mad to even know. This is a very telling example of how money is not simply about numbers. So many of us make financial decisions because we feel we should.

We feel we should save money. So we simply jump from one thing to another. I need to move back in my parents.

I need to buy a house. I should cut back on branch. We are missing one essential thing, actually making big financial decisions using real numbers.

And if you really listen, you hear, why did you hear the words Michelle use to describe yourself? I'm a people pleaser. I don't find myself worthy. Math is my safe space SHE knows something is wrong, but without knowing how to probe into IT SHE default to her worldview of not trusting herself leading to or moving back in with her parents, i'm curious to learn more. So lets get back to how they talk about money in their relationship.

When was the first time you had a real conversation about money?

I don't think we have ever had a conversation about .

money in seven years.

but he doesn't really like talking about okay. And then I also don't push her on IT cause shall be ready in a planner and say of all her bills i'll go her to take a peak and she's like, no, no, no, stop. Don't look. I do keep picking, but it's always the same thing.

Go across the room and you pull out your binoculars, go what what's on there like set up a miro hinder. Why do you think that Michelle says no, no, no about you looking at her finances probable .

because she's embarrassed.

Yeah I ve you've been told him i'm not ready to show you that I spent seven years IT wasn't until recently, honestly, that we had this coming up that I actually was up front about IT in general said about the numbers in the p SHE.

Filled at the C. S. P. And that's where I saw the number first time. Yes, so that like for you, uh, pretty shocking. Just see the amount bills that he has per month compared to what I have. Paper man.

and what is IT like for you to do this? C S. P.

honestly, IT was very overwhelming. IT was like depressing at the same time just because I saw like the debt ratio and he was literally all mine. Um it's just kind of like a let down. I don't know where I went wrong with everything. I just never started, right, I guess. But it's just like a let down, especially now that I have like my you know adult job and knowing that I make decent money and knowing that I have nothing to show for IT is just like IT IT just puts me down honestly. It's kind of be interesting .

the way that you talk about money because of your early thirties, right? Thirty three. In a way, it's like you're talking about money like you're seventy five years old. Oh god, I just wasted my life. I got nothing to show for IT. But when I look at IT, I go you sort of at the beginning of your career, i'm seeing a Young woman who has a professional careers, a nurse, maybe didn't learn about money and you're starting off. What do you think about the difference in our perspective?

I wish I would think of IT like that a little more, because I D be a lot easier myself, maybe a little more forgiving for the mistakes i've done. I feel like my own worst enemy when he comes to money, especially like it's something is so embarrassing and so shameful like I feel I just Carry like you know like this scarlet letter with money at something that like takes a toll on me and I feel like I judge myself based on IT.

Can you read back some of those words you just said to meet? Did you catch him a scarlets letter? forgiveness.

Yeah, worst enemy. Not even worst critic. Worst enemy. What else did you say?

shame. The main one, the scarlet letter at duck. That was pretty interesting.

What do you think about that?

Very brutal to comparing to that .

talk yourself a lot like that about money yeah and other .

things in life to yeah .

and then mad. Do you talk to yourself like that about money?

No, I have like a good system, I think where I just, you know, get paid paid my bills and then whatever leftover is what either invest or, you know, kind save.

Quite a different perspective on money, right? Shame, judgment, carleton letter and then that use the words system doesn't seem emotional to you at all. So how did the two v relate about money?

We do every time i'd watch to shown when I was on influx, I would cry just because it's so relatable. They all said stuff that I said and to him he's just like, no, well, it's not that a heart. You just have pay IT and i'm always like .

it's not that easy is different, why I .

honestly have no idea. I'm definitely responsible with IT notice .

the pattern of Michelle avoiding money conversations and ignoring money herself. When he finally confronts IT, SHE immediately uses words of deep shame and guilt. You can see this so often in people's relationship.

For example, with food, it's not as simple as telling them just eat less or just spend less. When you truly understand the psychology involved. Hearing someone talk about themselves like this always makes me sad.

Think about IT. Most of us would never, ever talk about our friends like this. We would never call our husbands or wives these words. Yet some of us use these words with ourselves over and over for years. And we really start to believe IT will deal deeper into Michelle money psychology.

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SHE just seems to be more responsible and held accountable for herself.

I always like bills pile up and because an insurance laps, I guess that happened back in April, I had to give my registration like in and so technically was spending and so now I technically don't have IT like I can't driver for two months because of that OK. So what you do literally or rely on my parents taking me somewhere, I took my work OK. I don't go anywhere or him getting me it's it's only been a week with IT but you are responsible for like people's lives at as my profession and then it's like, um can you get me from work?

It's just kind of like i'm not like OK, it's like but let's si to the root of why IT happened. You didn't file the registration.

why there wasn't enough fans because I spent IT in others of that I shouldn't happen.

which was what .

food ordering uber eats when I get home from work, I don't want to cook anything and then living at home, like like I said, my mom doesn't cook, so nobody's cooking for me. So just wanting to order something. It's really depending maybe diner food.

you ordered dinner food to be delivered. I can think of a worst meal. What do you get?

Pancakes that does .

some pretty good. Okay.

if I my mind is thinking good at first and like how much shit .

this cause I do love understanding the total amount because you know when you order like a to pote label or something, it's like I know thirteen box and then if you get IT delivered it's like thirty seven dollars but i'm like, okay, I did that makes sense. I'm not blaming anybody. Somebody need to be paid for that. How much is your pancakes costs when .

you get a delivered about like twenty with delivery and everything? I like twenty.

twenty.

twenty two pancakes. Yeah.

pretty much. Does anyone else find this fine? no. Twenty four .

dollars for two, five cakes, I know. And it's all because I get home so tired that I want .

to make IT for myself. We once ran a pilot program on food and fix. We hired a full time personal trainer, and we helped people lose weight and put on muscle. And some people change their entire lives using that program. But I have to tell you, the psychology of food and weight that we learned was absolutely shocking.

For example, we had a student who would binge late at night, and they would describe in vivid detail how they would be eating snacks at the kitchen counter, knowing they shouldn't be and hating themselves for every second of IT. That's the word they use, eating themselves, but they just didn't bring themselves to stop. We asked them why they did, and they said the same thing.

Myle said, it's dumb. I know I shouldn't. I guess I just can't get control of myself.

Ves, i'm irresponsible. And we said, no, we don't believe any of that. And we push them to go deeper.

Using the five wise technique, IT turned out they were hungry because they'd skipped lunch. why? Because they didn't pack a lunch.

why? Because they were late out the door that morning. why? Because they had stayed up the night before watching netflix.

They were blaming themselves with this massive moral defect. But what we found was something much simple and behavioral. You need to set a time to go to sleep and follow IT.

Now food, of course, has so many different reasons for why we behave the way we do. It's not often as simple as this. They're often much deeper issues.

And for those, I would highly recommend speaking to a train specialist. But today, do you see the connection and do you see how i'm doing the same thing here with Michelle SHE let her insurance labs. why? Because he didn't have enough money.

why? Because he orders from door dash. why? And so I sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop assigning moral judgments to yourself and instead treat your behavior like a scientist.

What am I doing? Why do I do that? why? why? why? You can learn more about how to use this approach in my programme, success triggers at I W.

T dot com slash products. okay. So that's one. You you get the twelve dollar each pancakes, fine. And what other bills did you have?

My student loans, that's a huge chunk of bit. And what I have my credit .

or dt credit .

or did .

what effort.

a lot of dum stuff, like a lot of shopping.

a lot of breeds. You said shopping, you shop a lot and you said IT comes me what I mean IT just makes me feel .

like i'm not in the position that I actually am, which is a broke structure .

from .

her life. Have you helped her with her dead?

Yeah, I did. I cosign alone for .

her with how much you .

was fifteen thousand.

What was .

alone .

for in that .

happening .

right now? You cosign alone for your girlfriend, right? And did you ask like, hey, maybe I might be open to you, but I need to see your finances and we need to make a plan.

Did you say that I didn't see your or asked to make a plan? I just trusted to, I guess, do the right thing. I guess I just thought you would know what he was doing.

What what I mean, she's had dead for like so long. He tells you about .

money all the time, right? count. You're hearing .

this says you talk about IT. What is sound like we just .

need to talk more.

Oh, that's for sure. That's the bare minimal. I'm glad you're here. That's why sometimes people need me as an excuse to talk about money for the first time. But like, do you see the alarm on my face? Yeah, what do you think is going through my head right now?

Why would you trust her with that?

Ah why would you trust her? Why would you cosine alone? And it's not just about you.

Michelle are not saying that you are untrustworthy. I am saying I wouldn't coin almost anybody's long. And if I did, i'll be putting them through the most.

And i'll be, like, read my book and I would quiz them of every frequent subchapter explain this to me. What about this? What happens? If this happens, I would make them work.

So to me, this speaks to a complete lack of relationship about money between the two of you, a lack of transparency and honesty, the fact that he did not know that you had even twenty years of debt, much less ten times that. And Michelle, your inability to handle money, you took alone to consolidate money and ended up in a worst place. Have you ever taken money from him? What happened when .

I was in working? He had money saved up in his chief. And since I really wasn't working, because I was studying, I would like take and then know if I was gna replace.

And like before he noticed, I would replace IT. And then I just never happened. And then one day he went to go grab something from IT, and I didn't even know how to tell him .

what happened that .

IT was just missing. And I was just really .

dippolito anything.

Yeah, what what was .

a conversation? I mean, honestly.

there was a conversation that was actually silent 自拍。 IT was onest ly like, I saw that. But I go out so bad because I literally, he's never judging me about IT. He's never like, made me feel lots of a person for even doing that. And I went, and I like a trading.

This sounds like a healthy relationship with money to the two of you.

They hurt. And I just just trust .

each other that I .

will pick you .

want to tell you .

right now.

yes, I lost my trust. 我的 在 这儿。

sorry.

IT was IT was gonna her herring that's so good pay for hurting ing with she's always asking you know about ring in that's three some way he got .

here as I took the funds that he had for IT. I get really cared that um he's gona question if he sees the future with me and even my ability to be like a parent. Because of that done, I done.

I feel like right now we're opening up kind of lifting the lid on something. And IT feels treacherous. IT feels dangerous. Does he want to stay with me? Does he think i'm going to be a bad parent? I'm gonna guess that you have lifted the light up and this is so scared you just covered IT right back and pushing away. In the past.

this goes so much deeper than spending money on door dash pancakes. The shell feels guilty about taking money from math c as SHE should. We're talking about five thousand dollars, which is a big deal, and now SHE scared that he's not gonna ck around to build a future together.

But he hasn't expressed wanting to leave. If anything, he hasn't reacted angrily enough for what I would have expected. Can you imagine what this conversation would be like if the gender were reversed and a boyfriend stall from his girlfriend safe? I see gender dynamics here.

I see personal psychology. I see a common dynamics where someone continues to blame themselves. But after a while, you start to say, OK, now why you can blame yourself, but is almost starting to seem like a defense mechanism.

And the question is, what are you going to do about IT? I want to explore Michelle's childhood so I can understand what sorts of money situations were model to her when SHE was growing up. Will dig in to that after this break, and very quick. If you enjoy these videos and you want to be the first to know when we drop a new one, make sure you hit that subscribe button. IT really helps my team and me grow.

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back .

to our conversation.

You're feel good about money?

No.

if you didn't feel bad about money or would you .

feel no idea.

It's a pretty common people who have felt bad about money for so long. It's like a having legg pain times a thousand. You get used to IT.

You forget what I was like to not have that. And then if I ask you, what would you feel like to not have that people go? I don't know what's been with me forever.

I'm definitely responsible with IT OK. I definitely I was I wasn't taught anything with IT like I was a control thing growing up. So I always said i'm not going to be controlled by money.

Who controlled IT my dad, he was like the soul provider. He worked long hours, maybe like sixteen of a day, monday through friday, barely got to sleep. And my mom was, stay home, mom, to take her, me of my sister. And he was the one that was like in control, like everything pretty much .

when you say control. Give me a specific example where he exerted control using money.

If he would say something mean to us or something, or like that out of the line, he would like bias something or give us money. That's kind of like d IT started also with my mom. My mom for a while was in credit card debt.

And I know my dad lost his lid when he saw me his bill, and then he paid IT off for her. But he was kind of like, it's kind of like my mom always had to go to him for money. And I didn't like that because I felt like I took her independence away .

because he had to ask for money. He was in a less powerful position or subservient, like, please give me .

money yeah yeah or even sometimes he would just mainly be like, oh, well, i'm the one that pace bills on the one that has night as I got older and I started like, know, talking back, that's what I remember the conversation would .

be so he would say, don't talk back to me on the one .

who provides for this family yeah like or don't say that you're going to need my money or it's like it's always my money or you're broke. I like you're broke like .

what did you feel when you are your dad saying these things?

And I felt I was discussing, I feel like he just thought that like because he came from another country, he had to work from such a Young age and he had to kind of like he's done very well for himself for being born in another country and not really knowing the language in coming up keys on, you know, his american dream. But then because of that, I feel like will never do good enough. He's just like you guys will never understand. You guys are spoiled.

okay? I think it's true. You will never understand, I will never understand what it's like for my parents to have been born in india and come here, right?

That doesn't necessarily make me spoiled. yeah. okay. Um what did your mom say as these conversations were happening between you and your dead?

Oh, should stay quiet.

I'm assuming .

SHE felt maybe that way about herself too. So SHE just would try to avoided IT.

Did you ever talk to your mom about money as a kid or as a teenager? No, never know. How come.

because knows my dad more than I had IT. So I would just go to my dad, let's say, for a field trip and stuff like that, like my mom would just always kind of make us be the one to ask for IT like SHE would never ask .

for us looking back to you, see that as Normal .

or abNormal, abNormal OK please me too.

What happens as you ve got older when you a teenager.

my dad still was the one providing then when I was able to get a job at fourteen, I started working.

What did you feel like when you started getting a paycheck?

right? Because I didn't need to ask my dad for anything you we made IT seemed like I needed homeless, even though I did, because I was still living in this house and stuff. But in a way, it's like that how he kind of like you look for any other excuse in a way to kind of like poke at you. When I started changing the most was when I had to go to college and get student loans. And that's when IT all like went bad.

What up?

My dad is my cosigner for my a loans. I had to apply to private like student loans salary and then when I was done with school, I had starring the student loans and my dad was like, I don't ever remember like signing these loans the because I ones yeah and so then he would go on the tenant saying till the state, he says, says that like, we forced a signature, even though I literally remotely remember the fights we would get into because if I tell him, him like, if you don't want to do IT like I can just work. I'll just and he's like a delay in other the semester. Like no, do whatever you got to do and then I would try to explain to him he wouldn't want to be involved, to be honest, he was too busy with work and all that and so then he would just be like here, do what you want to do and you know, being dumb and Young and not really understand the rest increases and i'm enough to pay everything yeah, I pretty much got myself in a huge student long day.

But you graduate with in debt .

overall.

Yeah.

two hundred fifty thousand.

This is so horrible, I cannot imagine growing up with the dad who talked to me like that, who talked to my mom like that, and then who lied about cosigning alone. Yes, Michelle has responsibility here. He also signed for that loan.

Now i'm not a therapist s so I don't feel comfortable characterizing how her father spoke to her. But let's to say my personal view is I am extremely pissed at him. If you grew up under that kind of household, can you imagine how you would react? I don't think most of us can.

So we shall graduated with two .

hundred and fifty thousand dollars in loans. Let's keep go looking .

back on the financial relationship you had with your dad regarding the cosigning of the loans. What words come to mind for you? The first words .

that you feel it's really messed up that he actually like feels that I would have the ability to go, or honestly, just like that, morals to even go and like, forge that, knowing that every time we get into a fight, I would go asking, what, what should I do about the semester? Ter, I would try to see. He would say, no IT be a huge thing. Do whatever you want like i'm an an you do because my mom doesn't have any credit. They're not going give IT and I was just like, always a headache.

Why do you think he said that he was forge? I mean, obviously that's not true. Why do you think he saying .

because I think he feel feel stupid that he didn't take the time to be involved and also um his anger and his stress took the best of him. My dad is pretty good financially like he's very like strategic with his money takes. You know, he works hard for IT. He but I think he gills probably dumb that he let kind of me jump into that.

So he feels dumb. You think he feels angry, maybe ashamed, maybe overwhelmed that this happened and he didn't realize the implications. And so his conclusion is to do what? Blame IT on me.

Blame IT on you. yeah. In other words, not take responsibility, not create a plan, just, I need this bad feeling to go away. yes. OK, do you see any links between the way that your dad handles money in the way that you handle money today?

SHE avoids her um problems of money and he avoids talking about his problem with money.

What do you say me? sure.

yeah. He never respect us about money and money.

Anything do you talk to about about money? no. OK, that's one.

How do you think your dad feels about knowing that he cosign alone and now his daughter graduate with quarter million dollars in debt? How does he feel good guilt? You ever feel guilty .

about money all the time? To what .

else .

does he make .

a plan? Is he methodical about what to do? Does he do? Is researching and come you and say, I think we should do this. What do you think?

Never.

never made a plan? okay? No, you ever make a plan with your finances.

I'm gonna this. I'm going to pay off dead. I'm going to know the months, year.

I do IT all the time. I try my best, but I never executed. Then he becomes overwhelming when I started seeing .

the number is so big to count that as three because writing a plan in a journal or can ruminating on IT that can feel like executing a plan, but IT gets ninety eight percent of the way there. But that last two percent is fundamentally the only thing that matters. Yeah, so one, two, three links between your dad and you, what do you think .

about that IT tax? And that's like what keeps us from having a relationship. Now all we do is fight about like like my student loans.

Any of this surprise .

you met um i've heard stories over the seven years so um not really um because he always come comes to me crying her um can't expressing what happened yeah it's a tough .

it's a really tough situation. You know with your dad who's supposed to love you in so many ways and cosigning the check and then turning around and saying you forget IT yes, I mean, obviously that's not true. But beyond that, for a dad to say that about his daughter, there's something fundamentally wrong yeah, we all agree. Yeah okay.

I feel like overall, having been able to like grow, I haven't been able to do anything .

with your finances, with your relationship, with your family yeah, with what .

else my relationship with, not even obviously.

this goes a lot deeper than I can tackle myself as a kid, SHE saw her dad being cruel and controlling with money. SHE saw her mom secretly racking up dead on her macy car, and then her dad and the student loans, as if taking out a core of million dollar one was not bad enough, which again, he needs to take some responsibility for. Then her dad accuses her of forging his signature on the loans.

Knowing all of this, it's no surprise that Michelle is unable to be open with map about her finances. Money to her is inextricably clouded with negativity. And he hasn't been pushing her to have conversations because he knows all about his family history and he doesn't want to obsess her.

So he's walking on eg. shells. I think IT is critical that they put everything on the table and start to actually get real about what their expectations are. We're going to open up their conscious spending plan.

Right after this.

the center decided, surprised me with a date night. We went to central park and there was a skating rink there. I said, cool.

I haven't skated in many, many years since I was a kid. Get the skate. Put him on.

I was skating back to my locked. Put my shoes on. I fell down.

I thought, no big deal. I fell down. Four people come over. Look over me like this.

Are you okay? I guess IT was more of a serious fall than I realized, especially when you weigh seventy five pounds more than you use to weigh a kid. Turns out that that date night ended up in me, fracturing my wrist.

God, to tell you, it's not the coolest thing, the world, to tell your friends, hey, I fresh ed, my risk. why? Because I was roller skating in central park.

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Now back to the conversation.

I think we need to look at the numbers. So the two you put together, a csp, did you do IT .

together? No, virtually.

What was that like?

He didn't really say much about the obvious big.

That number I didn't see before SHE submitted IT I saw IT .

the day after I didn't finish IT until like the night of and then that only time um but I finish IT if you if you needed like is anything you want to talk about?

Interesting question. Is there anything you want to to talk about what you think .

you are you getting at by asking that someone asked me about like the debt I just told him about the amount that I spent on the uber eats IT was disgusting okay. So that was the .

number you have focused on the uber number yeah and then you said, do you wanted ask me anything else? Yeah and what did .

say I think said no.

How did you both view this csp assignment? He said he was easier.

I thought I was yeah pretty .

simple to fill out, right? So you're view .

IT as filling out numbers on a small sheet OK. And how did you .

view in my show really hard typical, embarrassing, uh, overwhelming. Quite typical of the way both .

of you treat money right? Yeah for you is easy system numbers. I haven't ready to go black and White done for you. Full shame. Yeah gilt.

especially when I saw that like the debt was both of hours and then I vogue that I was like, here I am putting all this dad .

on you yeah, but neither of you really talked about IT. The point of the C. S.

P is not to get your numbers precise down to the third decimal place. That's irrelevant. What is IT designed to do? Get you to talk about IT.

And in fact, notice some of the mocking nations behind the scenes waiting until the last second to finish IT then saying, is there anything you want to ask me? Not really how you start a substantive conversation, right? It's almost like i'm going to try to skirt, pass this as quickly and quietly as possible.

Is there anything you want to ask me? no. okay. So here we are.

In the two of you have been talked about money even still. yeah. Do you talk about IT now? Yes, right.

Let's look.

So assets are zero investments, forty seven thousand dollars, whose investments?

I put my forever key there. And then I think I may also put on what I have um in a trading account are right savings .

zero and dead two hundred and sixty three thousand dollars or a total network of negative two hundred and fifteen thousand dollars right? What do you all think about that?

Since did you .

know that that no, what do you think I was?

Twenty thousand credit card dead maybe .

like a hundred thousand student loans for her to almost double way that ah and seeing .

IT what you feel just really confused on how we're onna get out of this because I mean, I don't have dead like that so I never had a plan for myself to get up if I was to get into death like that. So seeing that now, it's just like, what do I do hear kind of think.

what do you do here? Yeah, easy. IT should be us.

But what do we do here? What if fits her any of this, that yours a little bit? I have .

like maybe twenty thousand student loans and then sixty thousand and in a car deck OK.

So like two hundred thirty of IT is yours, ball park. So what the way I would look at IT, even if i'm in a relationship where we are not married, I would say, how is SHE going to handle this dead? A different philosophy, right? yeah. Have you ever said that to her?

Why didn't know? Because we are not married and ever picture our finances together like .

that yet um but since .

we had to do the csp now together and just kind of changes the way i'm seeing and thinking about IT, if we get marry, do I inhere IT this also um if something were to happen to her, how will this get paid off um just for big just basically like how can we afford anything with with that number?

Michelle, what do you think here .

in that I never felt like I would be our that to take care of. I always felt like I would be mind regardless of like getting married and stuff like it's still my that so I never thought I would expect him to be taking care any of .

IT so OK but what .

about .

the substance of his comment, which is how are we going to get married if he has that much dead?

That's what I felt that he start this all time.

Instead of fearing what he might think he thinks IT, he just sent IT. So let's take that fear away. Now let's go into the substance of his question, which is a super valid question. How are we going to get married in, be in relationship if she's bringing two hundred and thirty thousand dollars of debt?

What's your take?

There's nobody else coming to save you here. I think that's part of my goal with our conversation is for you to recognize the reality of the situation here. But continue .

on income.

fifteen thousand eight hundred and twenty five a month. Now, this is interesting. Nine thousand three hundred dollars is partner one, is that you? Michelle? Okay, great.

And partner two is six thousand four hundred a month that you may OK. So quite interesting, right? Michelle, making more by roughly fifty percent or so.

And man, and yet the numbers are profoundly different when we look at fixed costs, Michelle, you're paying ninety nine percent of fixed costs from your salary. I mean, right there, that's unsustainable. You are a broke.

You are losing money every single month. Meanwhile, matt, you're a fifty three percent, which is a very healthy number. I was soon part of this is because you're .

not paying rent, paying you yes.

Interestingly, by the way, math, not paying red Michelle, paying three hundred sixty dollars in red three hundred sixties also a great deal, don't get me wrong, but at ninety nine percent, it's difficult to live. And if we look at why we see a few things here, what do you notice about your numbers in the fixed costs? What stands out to you immediately .

on my dead payment?

Your dead payment is two thousand, five hundred and forty two dollars a month.

That was the most shocking part. That was a, that was the number that was left off when I was doing the C. S. P. When I said I was done. Um, you know I logged off and let her submit and then that I guess the final no SHE has input and then SHE did IT.

So when you looked at IT, you were like, oh, this looks fine. Like, it's fine. Like, look at this, if I zero out all the debt, fifty eight percent year, right solid, we're going to go easy, right? But it's not it's ninety nine percent. What else do you notice, Michelle, about your fixed costs?

There are my shop lot.

Yeah why we determined IT already. right? What is IT?

Because I like it's suthing yeah like feeling avoid and yeah exactly gives .

you a sense of control, a temporary sense of control. But now lets look at the effect that so the effects are that this number here, clothes target amazon missed lenise is seven hundred and forty eight doors a month. Your dead goes up and up and up, right? And your dad, is that like two hundred thirty thousand doors? And then how does that affect your relationship now that the two of you know about these numbers?

Just um pretty confused. I just don't know how .

all that adds up. Are you confused? Are you angry not angry? Oh, can I tell you my reaction? I would be angry at my partner, who we live together, who I asked repeatedly.

Let me look at what you're writing and you said no. And now we have you have this much in debt and how are we ever going to come together and get married? And what's worse isn't even the number.

What's worse is that I don't have a plan. I would be angry because this is not just heard that it's the future for the two of you. I'd love to hear you talk about money. Now that you have seen these numbers.

how how would you even how would you get. What's the plan?

You can another job.

How's this conversation feel already?

And come IT .

feels horrible to me. I'm not even in IT. You have never really talked about money.

I hear that. But the first conversation that you're having is getting really negative, really fast. Can we change the dynamic of that?

I'm about to walk them through the steps of your first positive money conversation, which is an exercise that I outlined early in my new book, money for couples. You can pre order money for couples at I W T dot com, slash money for couples, and you can get the exact word s to use to have Better conversations about money in your relationship. I W T dot com slashed money for copts.

What would you want to feel in your first money conversation?

I've want to feel like there's hope, like there's a chance that there is a way out of IT.

But start by each .

of you .

sharing one way that this conversation about money is going to be positive.

I would started by saying that i'm sorry for the past and that I want to maybe set out like a payment plan or but the money I owe him first off, because I feel like that one is like a huge factor on me too.

why this conversation .

can be good because i'm being honest about my numbers. These conversations .

couldn't be good because we finally communicating well. Are that kay next?

How do you each feel about money today?

I feel really bad about money today.

I feel pretty confident about money, just in a sense of how to manage IT. And, you know, make sure you pay your bills first and whatever left over, be safe about .

the two of you. You feel, you feel bad. You feel good. Any connection about how you feel about potentially your money? Together.

we can come up with a plan for media, be able to and out of this so you're more comfortable and are more comfortable and we can save for our future.

I feel that it's definitely scary to see that number. But like you said, we can create a plan and you know just be really disciplined with what we're spending on. Um not saying we can have fun. But really just be mindful of gonna target her needing something from amazon, things like that.

How do you want him to feel about money?

I want to feel confident that the jail all the time. If I want to feel free.

I would agree that I would want to feel like it's not holding this back for anything.

I had to admit i'm surprised by that last one because right now, Michelle, he seem pretty free to me spend on the things you want. Where's the jail?

The one I guess I put myself in. Yeah.

so isn't at the worst of all worlds. You feel constrained. You actually just spending more than you make. You just feel bad in a way that seems like you almost thrive on feeling bad. You use the were dwell earlier caused me to dwell.

But I think with your money you do well on IT so much IT is not healthy to ruminate obsessively and to dwell on IT for years. So when I hear you know you've made mistakes in your past, okay, fine, everybody y's made mistake. I have made mistakes.

fine. Matt says, like, just make a plan, pay off your dead SHE just needs to get Better with money. But it's not just that simple right things.

Step one is not dwelling on what's happened in the past, but rather looking to the future. And what about the consequences? Might have you ever asked her directly and said, we need to have a Candy conversation about money?

I don't think so. I just, you know, like I said, i'll go over, take a look at the planner, tell me, don't look up, I just back off .

IT feels very child like the whole dynamic of like, let me peak. It's like two kids in junior high looking at each other. You're in your thirties. You're talking about potentially marriage and kids that this doesn't make sense to me as an adult. What do you think that he .

just didn't want to tell me? And I never went through with asking more questions to avoid .

arguments because if you argue, that means what .

just more fighting can like be .

done yeah maybe .

that means your mean person, then you, you get enough fights from your family. So when you come to mats, you're in a safe space. But your identity is, now, i'm the one who doesn't fight with her. What else is made? Identity as IT relate to you in money.

The one that helps me.

Yeah, he gives you money. He excuses when you make a bad mistake, he enables you.

Based on what we heard today, you'll notice a lot of similarities in the way that Michelle behaves with money and the way her parents behaved with money. Listen, as I try to help her make that connection.

can you think of anyone else in your life who stopped and ran up credit card debt?

My mom, any connection there? Thought a bit for a little bit, because I was like, why did I continue IT? Because SHE stopped IT what right away? Why did he stop? IT SHE.

you have any more fun, okay. And who found out about IT my dad and .

what did he do? He paid IT off and though to cut IT up. Kk.

so you don't have that happening in your life, in part because you earn your own income, right? So your mom stopped .

sequence.

what are you realizing?

I don't have consequences because it's like my income. So i'm not feeling like I know anyone, anything, but I do.

Oh yeah, I don't i'm not advocating for you to give up your income and then for you that to come in and say, like stop shopping at macy. That's not what i'm saying at all. I do think you're on to something by realizing you don't have any consequences. Have you ever realized that before?

And for a second, I like touch that and I was like, cool. Maybe that's me. And then that was, I think .

I ignored.

That S A lot.

You covers something like, you look up.

Yeah.

I don't like that. There I am. Matter here. Yeah, it's pretty interesting, right? yeah. Any reminders from the way you grew up, somebody who uncover something they don't like.

And then my dad, your dad does IT does IT a lot, right? Yes, watching you see these connections between you and your dad and your mom, I think people can internalize this in one of two ways. One, they can become overwhelmed and feel broken and feel my future has already been written for me in my past.

So what's the point? Everything I do is just because my dad said something in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. And now, like, I have no agency, I have no control.

That's one or two people can say. I never made the connection between why I behave this way and what my parents model. Now that I know that, what do I want to do about IT? What do I want my future to be? Which one would you say that you are right now?

I feel like because of all the the. Names that my parents have called me, I let them take over like who I am. So it's like, gonna. I'm like living up to there names.

You're never gonna be good with money. Yeah, right now you're not good with money. Oh, he called you a broker.

I can't believe that I cannot like you said, I cannot believe any parent ever calling their child that. And you are broke yeah. So in a way.

manifest .

yeah and, uh, just had a curiosity. If you weren't broke, if you were good with money, if you were paying your debt off steadily, do you think they would love you more or less?

I know if they would love me more or less, but they would feel less useful because I won't need to, like.

depend on them right right now. You do right? You live in her house. You have to ask for a ride to work. You're totally dependent.

Yeah so in a way, you have taken the ball that they toss you and said, great, i'm going to run with this. What you think about this man, it's got to be frustrating for you. Somebody who says, I have a system, my stuff runs. What's the problem .

is just knock IT out. Yeah, it's just sad. I think SHE is just kind, not focusing herself, and I don't know.

He makes a lot more money than me, so I don't understand how you make all this money and all goes to your bills. So you say that were? No, I didn't say that to her, but I don't want to see her. I just try to board an argument, so I also want to bother. But in other ways, finally.

we are getting somewhere. They're finally talking about money that is expressing his concerns and he's also admitting that he doesn't talk about money because he's also an avoider. They both are.

Although Michelle is also a warrior, chAllenge now will be from a shellin map to adopt new money behaviors. Step one is for both of them to have a series of real conversations about money. Do they have a future together? What other expectations, what would success look like? And this can be uncomfortable, but IT has to be.

Sometimes the only way to build a rich life is to walk straight to the fire. But only Michelle l. Can get this under control.

That can do this. I can do IT. SHE has to do IT by herself, for herself.

The trusted.

if like, I had a safe? no. But yes, I trusted.

trusted with money. no. yeah. Could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?

I think I just need to have control of what she's doing kind of and I don't want that. I don't want to be kind of like micromanaging what he does because she's an adult, you should know.

So could you get married if he didn't trust her with money?

To be hard but I think .

I could if I kind of a see you like like, no, you shouldn't trust me with money and no, you shouldn't wanted get married to someone like that.

And when you say that to him, what's the intent there? Because I don't think it's for him to break up with you. No, it's not.

I think it's so that he reassures you. He feel scared. You articulate those fears to him.

He goes, no, it's okay. I love you. I'm not leaving and you feel reassured for the moment. And so what happens is the two you enter into this dynamic where you're constantly worried and ruminating over your fears and you're reassuring.

But what I haven't heard that is you saying, hey, i'm actually not okay getting married to someone else in two hundred thirty thousand doors of dead and worse, not actually making a plane to pay IT off. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with building a family when we have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt that only the minimum being paid.

You work in finance, you know this. I'm not okay with that. And so because you are walking on egg ells afraid to upset Michelle, what happens? You end up stagnant.

Nobody has any consequences. Michelle, have you had any consequences for math about finances? No, he didn't even know the numbers until today and you didn't share them with him.

So the reason i'm getting a little upset here is that I see your future that you're sleep walking into if both of you go, hey, fine, i'm O K. With two hundred and thirty thousand dollars of debt, I don't mind taking IT on. I wouldn't personally be comfortable with that, but at least you two affirmatively disgusted and say, this is our family approach right now.

It's just like each of you living independent lives, hoping that nothing bad happens and you can slip by the C. S. P, and you can slip by getting married here. What kind of life .

is that a lie?

Because you went to nursing school, grades made you drop out. And then you fought back, went back into an accelerated program, graduated. Now you're nurse, making one hundred and twenty. K right? How come you got so aggressive with that?

I think I just pretty much was tired, living like a comfortable um live yeah trying to act like I was OK with everything even though I was that. Are you O K with .

that right now? right? Well then tell me what you want to do.

I want to get ahead of debt.

What would you mean to if you could pay that off?

I would feel confident in myself and value myself a lot more people like the way .

you got your nursing degree. Yeah, you did that. Nobody else did that. you.

One of things I love is when I meet somebody who's really accomplishing one part of life, and then their finances are a little sloppy and they never make the connection. Oh yeah, I go to the gym all the time. I do this, I do that, but my finances are a mess.

And I I helped them make that connection between the two room. And you can see him kind of sit up a little strata. They realize the way that I do this is the same way I can do that. So you would feel confident you would value yourself more. Would you do with your first rich life goal after you paid off your debt?

Now you get a dog.

get a dog. It's of a beautiful thing to have a dog who you would love and take care of that would constantly remind you of what you accomplished and hard work. IT wasn't easy. You did IT and you get to love this dog.

I feel proud myself.

So looking at your fixed costs here and then if we just work our way down, you know you're investing a lot and of course, you're spending more than you make. So this is focus on the area that you can control when you just painted a picture. For me, a feeling pride of paying off your dead, of potentially getting a dog. Tell me what you could do right here in these numbers.

I could cut dining out riber eat 好。 I could give myself a hundred dollars to be .

realistic, one hundred dollars per month 啊。 And what about the other time you come home from late from work and your tired?

Just come home and make something, or have a pretty .

goat right there that would save you hundreds. Kay, what about .

the target stuff I would also slash to, like hundred dollars to by just buying the necessities that I need.

And then a, what else in your environment helps or hurts your chances of achieving your rich life .

goals living in my else? Yeah.

probably can't move out tomorrow. So what could you do to make you a Better environment?

I could all set a goal of hopefully went to be able to move up that something to look forward to.

great. What else?

Yes, I think .

all those things are good. I think those are all very logistical things. I am willing to bet you have never said no to your family. How could you build those skills so that you could have a Better relationship with your family, setting boundaries? I think that's a really good place to spend some money, get a therapist, guide you through those difficult conversations, right?

Yeah to me, when I look at the dynamic and the thing that you you've both wanted to get married, but you have an in the safe and all this stuff, to me a your priorities are very clear. I see you spending a tome on eating out. I see you spending a tone on this mindless stuff at target.

I don't see you putting money to spend on yourself. I'm talking about mental health yeah because to me that's everything. If you right now, the way you talk about money, it's shame filled its guilt ridden in IT would not change until you learn how to say no, how to set boundaries and how to get aggressive .

with this.

I think a lot of our conversation has been you metaphorically leaning back saying, like, I feel bad, I hate this. I made a lot of poor decisions. I just don't know what to do. But in order to be proud of yourself, what you have to do, you have to go from here to hear. You have to say i'm sickness and making a plan. IT might make a couple people around me uncomfortable, and i'm still gonna do IT and map what about you? What role would you say you've been playing in this relationship as a relates to money?

Not like getting angry with her and you know enabling her yeah with the spending.

I don't think you have to get angry and not with her, but I do agree you've been enabling what else way Better .

communication. I mean.

yeah, would you be willing to marry somebody who was in this much dead and had no plan for getting out of IT?

I said I would be hard. So I guess helping her stay on track with the plan.

Part of the problem is that by you being the safety net for her financially and otherwise, Michelle knows she's face no consequences. The hardest st part of this is both of you actually setting standards for yourself. And I don't know about you guys, but if i'm talking about a marriage, which is the most serious bond of all, i'm setting high standards.

This is what I need in a partner. This is what I expect. I'm not going to pick some exotic thing like I need you to do your hair.

This color that's not want talking about. I'm talking about values. I expect us to have a healthy financial relationship.

I expect us to be nice to each other, not to scream at each other. This is a type of love, right? It's loving yourself and raising the expectations for your partner and then they meet IT or they don't.

I don't doubt my love for mat yeah, but I doubt my love for myself yeah. He won't even say like I don't see myself marry her.

I know he won't say right now, I am not trying to get you .

to say that yeah and i'm like answering that for him. So it's like going away, like it's like self habit. Yes.

IT is yes for me in a relationship, if I were there with somebody who had a bunch of debt, we would be talking about that they would be bringing IT up to me. I would not be chasing them, even though a person in debt tends to avoid IT. There's a lot of shame I get that I would have created a culture where they felt safe enough to talk about IT.

And IT was expected, like if you have some major health issue is expected, you talk about IT in this relationship, intimate relationship, I need to know if you have a financial problem, a family problem, I expect you to talk about IT, just as you could expect that for me. And then IT would be, tell me about your plan. How are you going to deal with this if there's something that is you don't understand? Let's talk about IT.

But you're an adult. I trust you to handle this because this is just one of a million things that a married couple would encounter right now. You can retire, you can buy a house, can do anything.

What about your kids? But what you want to have, kids who we're going to learn, that dad is giving money to mom, mom is hiding IT in shopping. Is that some, like, know any couple you know about my pets? Yeah, it's just passed down.

No, you elevate the conversation to a plan because this plan is the foundation for your relationship. Without IT, you'll be in half a million dollars of death in a few years and there's no escaping that. What you guys here has, I say that.

Any simplement consequences?

What are those consequences?

I won't marry her.

I would not break off a relationship with someone just because they had debt. But if they did not show that they took IT seriously, I would tell him, point blank. This is what I expect in a partner. This is the easiest thing we're gone to do together when we're married, we're going to have a lot more chAllenges. So I need to know that I can trust you as a partner.

That's my phone. I never expressed that I would marry her, so I never kind of lay down the law.

It's not laying down the law. It's you respecting yourself enough to know this is what you need in your life. You're an accomplish guy.

You talk about the gym. Your numbers look solid. Everything within the parameters like it's it's very it's like a machine, right you ever describe yourself as a machine before .

um we want to working.

Okay.

that's yes, he is so but .

that's one of the reasons that the two of you haven't actually been communicating is Michelle l. You're Operating on feelings about the past. Feelings may feel real to you, and sometimes they are valid and with reality, sometimes not.

Meanwhile, that lives in the plan. He has, his csp has his numbers is so easy for him. But what the thing you both have in common is you have a relationship you both want. This is that no one's actually taking the first step to say, here's what I need in a relationship. So what you guys want to do from here.

I need to have .

my goals. Yeah, you know.

they are, have IT all with man to get married, to have a family and to, just like, be happy and free.

great. Those are bengals. How do you get there?

I paying off my dead.

Make a plan to pay off your dead. You can't pay off your dead tomorrow. It's gna take years.

You know that it's fine. You have to make a plan. You going to make that plan. You going to wait .

for a math to make IT.

I'm going to make plan. Yes, your plan. It's her money. SHE owns IT. You can collaborate. You can answer questions if SHE hasn't, but you can take the lead.

That means this whole dynamic of hiding what you're writing in the journal is got a change. So you make a plan. And I would go to my partner and I would say, look, this is the plan i've come up with.

This is how long is gonna take me. Here's what i'm going to do in order to make that happen. What do you think? Because while IT is not his money, you two are in a relationship together.

And the matter you ve got to be honest, if IT says I can take seventeen years to pay off, you may say, look, that's too long. Can you find a way to pay off faster than that is going be hard for you because you want to solve problems for her? It's not your job is so then you're going to start with the plan cutting back on this, etta. And what's map gonna see from .

that results by in not needing task for money and also by paying him back.

amazing. I actually find that very inspiration. I've known a lot of people who were in relationships where one person had debt felt very shame.

But what an attractive moment. If that person takes responsibility and says, you know what, I made some mistakes, i'm not going to dwell on that. Here's my plan.

Watch me every month. Boom, paid off one percent. Boom, increased that number.

Boom, gotto raise. Look at smile on my face. He's like that. Compounding what you talk IT about is really impressive. This number is big and it's only getting bigger.

Part of what change looks like is making rapid changes, going from leaning back to leaning way forward and getting aggression. Trust me, you feel so good when you start getting that momentum and then a month for now should see some big changes. You'll be amazed how fast this can change. But remember, this comes from both of you, not one both.

I think I may take her to a, uh, jewelery store so he can not get motivated.

A big thank you to Michelle and math for sharing their story with us. I am rooting for Michelle to get aggressive with her plan so SHE and matt can start to build their rich life together. And now let's listen to their follow up videos up first, Michelle.

my guess, I realized how many financial decisions and choices I have to me. I have to really just buckle down and gets started on a plane, and just how much you have actually hurting my picture with that changes. I've started or I deleted all that over eat apps just been a couple days.

I have not ordered any food or anything called my loan with me in all those companies. And I put them on an old pay to make sure that they always paid. I also decided, give five percent of my patents tool fun for me in md that he is in charge for now for our future.

I hope that helps him see to that. It's because i'm planning a future with for us. And also IT helps me see that at least I have something to look forward to.

I have really thought of like what my long term privileges were because of how much I felt that I was like drowning and all of that. And I really thank you for kind of opening my eyes to you. Once you see you so hard, you can even not look at IT and have to tackle IT and .

do something about IT. And now let's .

hear from mat what my biggest take away from the meeting was. Worry about how her relationship of money has a lot of commonalities with her parents relationship with money. Something that i'm trying to changing is a definitely be more communication about our finances. The other and then also something we haven't done is gone to a therapy either he goes to therapy, but I don't. And so that's something i'd like the star, and I think that would really help us.

Hey, there i'm doctor ma shanker, a cognitive scientist, to studies human behavior on my podcast, a slight change of plans. I marry science and storytelling to Better understand how to navigate the big changes in our lives. IT was like a slow nightmare.

You know, because every day you think, oh, surely tomorrow i'll be Better and I would dream of being Better at night. I would dream that my face was, quote, and quite Normal, or back to the way I was. And i'd wake up and there be no change. I also speak with scientists about how we can be more resilient in the face of change.

You can think of the adelson brain as like the social R N D engine of our culture, that there something that looks like a risky and idiotic to us is maybe their way of .

creatively trying to solve the problem of having social success and fewer of the things that bring you social failure.

Listen to a slight change of plans on the I heart radio at apple podcast, or wherever you listen to podcast.