110. “My boyfriend doesn’t care about money. Will I ever feel secure?”
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Before we start today's show, I have a really exciting announcement that I've been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1st, 2025, I'm releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years, you've heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I've spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money and where they get stuck.

and how they can get on the same page. Well, behind the scenes, I've been working on the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money, and that's what I wrote for you. It's coming out January 1st, and in the book, I'm going to share how to talk about money, including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances.

I'm going to show the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health.

And finally, you're going to get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship. And you're going to discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page. Now, it's one thing to listen to couples or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it's a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner. Okay?

I'm so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre-order it using the link IWT.com slash money for couples and stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to IWT.com slash money for couples to pre-order my new book about getting on the same financial page as your partner.

Um, what the hell is going on on this podcast that like 80% of the people who come on here go through massive screening, fill out applications, they never actually read my book. Is anyone else puzzled by this? Look, a lot of the questions that you ask me about money are answered directly in I Will Teach You To Be Rich. How do you pay off your student loans? How do you automate your finances? Where do you start investing and how do you handle big purchases?

I wrote this book as a six-week program so you can follow along on your own or with a partner. If you want to improve your finances, I recommend you get the I Will Teach You To Be Rich book. It has over 18,000 reviews on Amazon. Get it at iwt.com slash book. I feel guilty because I feel like your dad has talked to me more about money and

and you growing up than maybe you. I don't want to have to think about money so much, especially in conversation with you. I want it to be more of a partnership. I don't really care about numbers growing on a computer. You know, I do kind of think about what retirement would be like and stuff, but like, it's not my goal. Like you're not really motivated by money. Would that be fair?

Yes. I chose a career that doesn't make a lot of money. I work as a backcountry ski guide. Cool. In the winter. And then in summer, what do you do? I work as a beer delivery driver. Okay. I don't think my relationship with money right now that I can ever feel fully safe. Yeah, I definitely want that to change. I think we want the same thing. I just don't know how to get there. It sucks.

Hannah's 31 and Jake is 26 and they see money differently. Hannah wants safety. She wants security. She wants to stop worrying about money. He does not care about it. If you and your partner see money differently, I think this is going to be a fascinating episode for you. And there's one thing I want to highlight before we get into today's episode.

Listen to Hannah and Jake talk about minor decisions. Even with something as small as choosing which grocery store to go to, they spin in circles, totally indecisive. And this is a really common pattern that I've seen among couples that isn't talked about a lot. And it turns out that their indecision ends up playing a central role in their money relationship. All right, let's get into it. We were talking about rents.

And him discovering how much I'm going to be making in the next five months and me taking on more rent, I think he was unsure and unwilling to let me pay more. The conversation didn't go beyond me just saying, yes, this is what we're going to do. I think I said, wow, you're going to make, what was it? $10,000 a month?

I was like, that's a lot of money. I don't make anywhere near that and I don't know when I will. Go ahead and have the conversation, Hannah. Just talk to him like you said it to him the other day. I've been telling you this for a long time, the whole last year and me through grad school, that that's probably what I'm going to be making. And I'm probably going to be paying for more in the long run just because I am making more money than you.

Just want to cut in here. Did you notice how Hannah began that conversation? Let me play it back. I've been telling you this for a long time, the whole last year and me through grad school, that that's probably what I'm going to be making.

All right, you'll probably notice that I never, ever start a conversation that way on this podcast. And you may also notice that it wasn't really a conversation. It was Hannah telling Jake something, and then it just landing with a thud. He had to figure out how to respond. If you have been having conversations with your partner about money that seem to go nowhere, or it feels like you're just spinning your wheels, then you're probably

Sometimes it helps to break your conversations down to their atomic levels. Here's a weird idea. Ask your partner if they're cool with recording the conversation the next time you talk about money, and then get a transcript. Look at how you talk to each other. I guarantee that your minds will be blown. Okay, back to the conversation. Notice how Jake responds to Hannah's declaration. Yeah, that sounds fair to me, but just a disproportion and

rent and other bills sort of makes me uneasy. I don't know if we need to do that. It sounds like that's more work, honestly. I want it to be as easy as possible. I mean, that's definitely my goal. I want paying the bills and splitting stuff to be as easy. I just think this is the easiest way. - What is this? This means what?

So basically all of our bills and for all of our grocery shopping and stuff, we just split it, I guess, manually. So one of us will pay the bill, like the Wi-Fi bill came

It gets taken out of my account automatically. I Venmo Hannah for half of it. When we go to the grocery store, I'll split up the receipt and Venmo request for that part of it. Okay. That seems easier to me than other methods. Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't want to keep Venmoing and I don't want to have to think about money so much, especially in conversation with you. I want it to be more of a partnership.

What do you think the problem is? Is this a problem of Venmo and tools? Because I'm still trying to understand what are the stakes here. Jake, if I had to ask you in a sentence or two, what's going on with money in your relationship? What would you say to me? I think Hannah wants more money than I think that I need. And I guess I don't have the aspirations to make that much money. More than I make now, but not that much. I see.

That's honest. Hannah, would you agree with that? Is that the primary thing what's going on? Yeah, that's the primary thing. I don't think you even want to make more than you're making now. It's just a day-to-day conversation, I guess. It's something we talk about sort of frequently. Is that related to Hannah's desire to make more money and your lack of desire to? Yeah, because if we do start having joint accounts and putting an income proportion...

proportionally the further apart our incomes get the stranger that gets i think if i'm putting in such a smaller proportion than she is into account and we're kind of spending money on somewhat separate things it just doesn't seem fair to me that doesn't seem fair to hannah why because she's paying more for stuff and so your conclusion

is to what? Keep things separate and split things 50-50? Yeah. Okay. Does that work? I think so. Okay. I don't think Hannah does. So you go to grocery store and let's say, I don't know, it costs a hundred bucks. You both split it 50-50. Is that how you do it? No. So we'll go through the receipt and, um,

I'll add up the items individually. So like, let's say she paid for it. I'll add up the things that I spent money on and the things that were shit. And then I'll pay her that because we eat kind of different things and stuff. You like doing this? I don't like it, but it doesn't take that much time. I mean, really, that's less than five minutes every time we go to the grocery store. Okay. It's not ideal, but I think it's easier than other things.

Other things would be what? Contributing to a checking account and then proportionally adding money in and then proportionally spending the money. That seems more of a headache. And right now, on a scale of one to 10, how would you describe the way that you've got your money set up? One is easy, 10 is hard. Where would you say it is? Three. Three, really easy. Okay. I think it's pretty easy. What does easy mean to you?

Automatic doesn't take a lot of stress or time. What? What is this? This idea that it doesn't take a long time? Yes, it does. It costs a lot. Not only does it cost you your own time focusing on $3 questions to sit there and decide who bought the head of lettuce, it costs you because you're not bonding with your partner over money. In fact, it feels horrible every single month.

This is an example of focusing on $3 questions. And Jake wants to do this going line by line on every receipt for the rest of their lives. That's not the life for me.

You know how many people's conscious spending plans I see every week? What's fascinating is the categories of spending, especially the ones where people spend way more than they think they do. For example, subscriptions. Let's take a look at some recent numbers on how much people spend on subscriptions. $100 a month on subscriptions. $205 a month. That's from someone spending 76% of their take home each month on fixed costs.

costs, $211 a month, $147 a month, and $487 a month. This is literally thousands of dollars a year, and most of us have forgotten about all the subscriptions we are actually paying for.

Thank you.

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My team and I create tons of material every single day. Scripts, voiceovers, emails, all kinds of material that we need to be good and we need it to happen fast. And one of the things we use is Grammarly, especially their new AI tool. For example, every Saturday, we send out my podcast newsletter. I break down an anonymous person's conscious spending plan. And I like going really deep to break down the numbers and show you things you might have missed in your own finances.

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Save time with one click and go from editing drafts in hours to seconds. Get AI writing support that works where you work. Sign up and download for free at grammarly.com slash podcast. That's G-R-A-M-M-A-R-L-Y dot com slash podcast. Easier said done. What would be an ideal scenario for you? Him being comfortable with me making more money, but also...

Having self-efficacy to do his best to do more than just make the bare minimum to pay his bills if he was single. I feel like I've never admitted that. What is it that you want from Jake? Feel free to be as honest as you want and feel free to take as much time as you need. Jake is listening. I wish that I could trust you to provide for me in some way if...

My business fell through. Okay. I would like that too. Go ahead. Keep talking about it. I think we're really onto something here. I think right now you couldn't like being a seasonal worker, you don't necessarily have your own room throughout the year. That's just yours. Or you don't know where your next paycheck's coming from, from like April to, to the summer. So I, I hear that. Jake, do you care about making more money?

Not really, you know, not that much. Like, um, to live my rich life would require a little bit more money, but not, not that much more money. Um, I don't really care about numbers growing on a computer. Um, you know, I do kind of think about what, what retirement would be like and stuff, but like, I, you know, it's not my goal. Like I chose a career that doesn't make a lot of money, you know, because I care more about what you do for a living.

I work as a backcountry ski guide in the summer. Okay, cool. Or in the winter. In the winter. And then in summer, what do you do? I work as a beer delivery driver. Okay. But I'm kind of getting into the climbing guiding too. Rock climbing guiding. What is your rich life if you could define it for us?

I want to live in the mountains where I can have access to them every day. The part that I don't have now is I would like to be able to take trips, not extravagant trips, but trips with flexibility. I want to be able to, with short notice, like I want to go here with Hannah or with a friend. That's the one thing I'd like to add to my life. You're not really motivated by money. Would that be fair?

Yes, that is fair. I think I can get experiences without just money. Got it. Yeah. Cool. I like that. And Hannah? Being able to retire in my 60s and maybe having a secure base that would be maybe a piece of land or a house somewhere. How long have you two been together? Three years. Are you into the mountains as much as Jake?

Uh, I, I think I am. I like living in the mountains, but I definitely don't want to be backcountry skiing every day. Okay. Got it. So you're 31 and what do you do for a living? I am a clinical or I'm a mental health therapist. I felt guilty that I'm probably going to be making a lot more than him. Why do you feel guilty? I don't know. It's like a lot more.

I feel guilty that I'm making so much more than him. And he contributes 50% of everything. Ah, who decided that? He did. So weird. It is always the case. The lower earner insists on doing 50-50 almost always, even to their own detriment. It's got to be stressful, Jake. I don't know. I mean, I can...

sort of making it work. It seems fair. We've used the same amount of power. We use the same amount of Wi-Fi and we both use the house equally, the apartment equally. Why should I just pay less because I happen to make less? Well, you pay less taxes than I pay. True. Oh, that's good. Yeah. And to tell you the truth, I can afford it. In fact, a guy like me should pay more

And be able to provide for the roads and the emergency services and all the beautiful trees and all that stuff, right? In your relationship, she makes more. Sure, she consumes 50-50 of the Wi-Fi, but she also has the capability to pay more. And in a relationship, to me, it makes a lot of sense. What do you think about that? Yeah, that makes sense.

That felt a little too easy. I'm not sure I just changed Jake's entire perspective about proportional payments in 30 seconds. But I do want to point out that sometimes a single good example can change everything. And sometimes having a third party make that example can be really powerful. Here's what I've noticed so far. Hannah cares about money because she wants security. She's expecting to make a lot more soon and she feels guilty about it.

She's concerned about Jake's relationship with money, but she's rarely direct with him. Jake doesn't care about money in the same way as Hannah. He acknowledges that he chose a low-paying career. And interestingly, he insists on paying 50-50, likely as a way to contribute because the lower earner in relationships is almost always preoccupied with the C word, contribution.

But of course, contributing 50-50 to the price of peanut butter isn't really what their disagreement is about.

If you struggle to connect with your partner on money, make sure that you are signed up for my Saturday newsletter. This Saturday, I'm going to be sharing seven money questions that you and your partner can ask each other to help make sure you're having healthy money conversations and to start actually feeling like you have a true partnership around money. Sign up at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. And that newsletter is free.

Now, I asked Jake about something he said in his screening interview because I want to understand how he views money. Jake, what's this thing about you not liking rich people? Is that true? Yeah. Not all of them. I don't like a lot of them either. And I'm rich. All right, tell me. You seem chill for a rich guy, but I don't know. I think...

often people lose their important values for money or with money. Then I also do not like the idea how 1% of the world owns everything and there are so many people suffering because of it. Not that I am suffering, but- - Yeah, I agree with you, man. I am totally with you, 100%. It is unfathomable, the disparity in wealth. Okay, I got questions for you. You have this feeling about rich people. I am not offended. I love the honesty.

Where do you meet these rich people? Is this when you're doing the skiing, ski guiding? I have had some clients that are absolutely filthy rich. And I just, yeah, I see people have values that I don't think are, or lack of values, I guess. What would be an example of the values you don't agree with? You know, I see a correlation with how...

wealthier people are doing these activities more to go home and tell coworkers or to post it on Instagram or to check a box, just like suffering through the day and having no fun and not talking to, you know, his group members and me and not getting the most out of the experience. Right. He's just there to take the picture and go home. Got it. And it's not fun for anybody. Okay. Yeah.

and i see that less wealthy people are really just there for the experience which i think is the way it should be and do you find that this is true of all the wealthy people that you work with no i wouldn't say at all how do you think that this this feeling you have about wealth and and wealthy people etc how do you think it affects your relationship with hannah and money i think hannah wants to be wants both of us to be wealthy together okay um and what do you feel about that i i i

don't necessarily want exorbitant wealth. And I think that is maybe our biggest issue and maybe why we're here. Yeah, I would agree with that. If you hate money or you think that rich people are vapid or evil, it's very unlikely that you will live a rich life yourself. That's because the very process of earning money, saving and investing, designing a rich life

will not get you where you want. That destination of rich will be antithetical to the identity you've created for yourself. This is why I talk openly about my rich life and yours. I want you to see that a rich life doesn't have to mean simply posting about your glamorous ski trip on Instagram, although honestly, I don't see a problem with that. Your rich life is yours. Next, I wanted to hear from Hannah specifically about how she was raised.

One of the worst feelings in life is feeling stuck.

You hear it sometimes with podcast couples here. They feel stuck around their money. I felt stuck in my business. I had made a bunch of decisions years ago and I woke up feeling trapped. So after thinking about it, feeling stuck, not sure what to do, I went to a CEO council that I'm a part of and I just laid it out. And after listening to me, they were like, oh, it's so obvious. You need to change this. Move this person over here. Change this resource allocation. Boom.

I wish I had done it years earlier. If you feel stuck in your career and you also wish you had a group of peers who could help you get unstuck,

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and join thousands of top senior leaders from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta who have taken the first step towards accelerating their careers. That's sidebar.com, S-I-D-E-B-A-R.com slash R-A-M-I-T. When I was in my early 20s, I was not into clothes. I wore free t-shirts from tech companies, and I really did not want to seem like I tried too hard.

But I started to realize that clothing is the first thing people see about you. They don't see how nice I am or how much I know about personal finance. They see what I'm wearing. And like it or not, that shapes a lot of how people perceive you.

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Elevate your style using Next Level Wardrobe at nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit. That's nextlevelwardrobe.com slash Ramit. I'm already getting teary. I was raised by a single mom. And so I was always the one that was, I guess, probably more mature about money and finances than my mom. She wasn't good with money.

No, she was not good with money. Yeah, probably like eight or nine when my parents got divorced. So probably just right around there. Some of my earlier memories are talking about money with her. We were completely dependent on my grandfather. He paid for everything in my life or it was like talking about child support and we don't have enough money or there's $5 in the bank account right now after I paid rent that kind

that kind of thing. So it was like me trying to just be smaller so that, so that she wouldn't be stressed about money. And I see that happening with us where it's like, I would, I just won't talk about it because I don't want to make him stressed about money. And what about now looking back on that, that eight, nine, 10 year old, what do you think?

I wish I could tell her that you don't have to be so hypervigilant. But it's just hard to, I would have to explain, like, listening to your mom call credit card companies is not something that other kids have to deal with. Or, yeah, I wish I could tell her that it wasn't normal what I was going through. I'm sorry you had to go through that at such a young age, too. Thank you.

You still have that relationship with your mom? We don't have a relationship because it just got to the point where I just couldn't handle her mismanagement of things. So you mentioned that you were eight, nine, you were starting to take over some of the family responsibilities with money. You were starting to also shrink yourself. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. What happened between 10 and 18?

Things just got worse. She didn't really work that much. She would get a big check for Christmas from a family member, and we'd just do our best to live off that for the rest of the year. Did you grow up thinking it was normal to get one check and then make it last for a year? I grew up thinking that you have to ask other people for money, and you have to be...

You have to be... You have to do what they tell you, essentially. Like my dad or my grandpa were... If we ran out of money, my dad and my grandpa were the people that she asked. And so it was very much like...

Grandpa wants us to do this. Grandpa wants us to live here. Grandpa wants us to, and same with my dad. It's like, you need to be this way and I'll buy you a car. Wow. How would you describe that if you had to put a word or words to that scenario? I was always scared for what was going to happen next. Yeah, I was just always, I had no control over my life. You still feel that way today?

Um, yeah, I do. Um, what ways? I just feel like I'm like deep down. It's probably not like in the front of my brain, but deep down, I'm always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And so being the one that makes more money in my relationship does not feel like a comfortable role. I'm used to being

someone else having a lot of money and then giving it when they felt like they wanted to. Would you want that to be the case in your relationship?

No, I don't want to. I don't want that to be the case. But I also saw a lot of enabling of my mom. If she didn't come from a wealthy family, we wouldn't have had anything. And I can't imagine her holding a job. I don't know what my life would have been like. And so for I don't want to enable him in like not not giving him the space.

to grow who he wants to be career-wise. And so just giving him money or making... He doesn't ask, but making his life easier. I don't know if that's the best thing to do either. So you're here because you want to help him? I'm here because I'm deathly scared to...

combine our lives. I've been doing well on my own and to start combining my life more and more with him, I'm scared to release and relinquish control. He is always stressed about money. So there's something that isn't working. Talking about money or just if there's something, some unforeseen circumstance, he's stressed. So

That's what I see. Any conversations we had early on about finances were like, my ideas about the future and what I wanted for my future. And then him, I can't remember what he would have told me. When we started dating, Hannah was just starting grad school. And I think she was pretty psyched on her upcoming career and how much money she was going to make. Why were you excited about the income you were going to make?

Previous to that, I was a flight attendant. And while I got to travel and leave at a moment's notice, there wasn't a lot of freedom in it. I was excited that that was something that I was going to have all while helping people. Money-wise, I was excited that I was going to be increasing my income significantly. Why? What does it mean to you? It means that I can relax, that I don't have to be on all the time.

Are you relaxed right now? I'm not relaxed now, but I'm in kind of like the last squeeze before getting my license, like the last hard part before getting my license. That happens in a couple months? Yeah, three and a half months. And then are you going to be relaxed? That's what I'm wondering.

Do you want me to just tell you? And I'm worried I'm not going to be. Yeah. I feel like I would take more on because I'd want to expand more and I'd want more income. Oh, okay. Because you want more income. Yeah, because I want more income. And because I feel like if things were to fall apart, I would want more money to just be able to be unemployed for a little bit. Yeah. Because...

When will the other shoe drop? Yeah. Does that remind you of anything? My childhood. Yeah. Do you think there's a connection? Yeah, I think there's a connection. I don't think my relationship with money right now that I can ever feel fully safe. There's not more to do, I guess. When do you get to stop worrying about money? I don't know. I think when I realize that I can...

like go on a trip and not have to plan it around like when it's best for for my business or when it's best for my employer or when I'm able to go on a trip and go where I want to go not based on how much I can spend that's what I have in my head I guess

That's a good answer. I like that last part. That's what I have in my head. Sometimes what we have in our head is right. And sometimes it's totally shockingly wrong. How do you think Jake fits into this?

Well, I think that Jake probably has to be a little bit on edge around me. I would love to be able to live with Jake and I would love to be able to like go with him where he travels. And so ideally we're able to live closer together throughout the year. Jake, what do you think? Hearing everything that Hannah just said, are you surprised at all? Yeah, definitely.

I mean, I understand her background and why money is tough mentally and why I don't help that at all. I understand that and I just don't know

how to move forward or like how to be a better support that i guess that's what i would like to support hannah better give her that um you know backbone or something she someone she can rely on i'm asking a few questions here right it's your life uh are you interested because you told me before you don't really care about making more money no i am interested in that um

I'm just in a place where it's not necessarily an option. I'm early in my career and I don't have a lot of flexibility in the long term. It might take several years. The one thing is the money. I don't know where that's going to come from. Isn't that the one thing that Hannah

Because he is so young and I, or he's 26 and I'm 31. I guess like I could just see it going on for the rest of our lives. Like this is, this is the number he's at. And I just don't see, I don't see him actually being okay with a number that he has there. What do you mean? He said he's okay with it. Okay. I, I don't see that on a day to day basis.

Okay, we got to get to this. Jake, you're stressed about money, I'm told by Hannah, but you don't seem stressed at all to me. So are you stressed about money?

Well, I guess you caught me at a good moment in time where I'm not stressed about money, but I am. I didn't say I have enough money right now, but I don't need to make $1,000 a month. The numbers are low. I'm not necessarily in the red, but yeah. I mean, Hannah, he's telling you straight up, this is who I am. He's being very honest. I work in this industry. This is the deal.

I'm getting my training. This is the kind of money I make. It might turn into something else. I'm taking steps and my schedule is unpredictable during certain seasons. He's telling you straight up. Yeah. I, I feel like for the, since November and up until now, I'm okay with that. Like I'm okay with whenever what his schedule allows, um,

But it feels like financially and dates wise, like I don't know what I could plan for us. There's a lot of dancing around what might really just be a basic financial incompatibility or a difference in life stages. Let's start with the possibility of life stages or seasons. Jake is young. He's early in his career. And this is one of many reasons that I don't focus on very young people to teach personal finance to.

Why? Because many of them simply do not care. I'm not saying anyone is a bad person, but there are seasons of life where you care about certain things. And me sitting here shaking people and saying, look at this compound interest chart, you 21-year-old, frankly is not going to make many 21-year-olds care about money. Think about it. Would it make sense to sit here and teach a class on how to rock a baby to a 21-year-old single person?

Probably not. So maybe Jake just doesn't care right now. Do I wish he cared about money? Of course. But I can't make someone care. And neither can Hannah. There is another darker possibility that this is just a basic incompatibility on a very important value.

Notice that Hannah doesn't even want to touch that because the implication is so severe. Instead, what does she say? She says, quote, I'm okay with whatever his schedule allows, but it feels like I don't know what I could plan for us. What do you think is going on here? What advice would you give to them? I'm curious. Leave your thoughts in the comments on YouTube and Instagram, and I will read all of those comments. Let's continue. Did you grow up

Middle class or lower middle class? Probably middle. I grew up in Seattle. My mother was an acupuncturist. She died when I was 14. And my dad, he's worked for various nonprofits. Got it. Sorry about your mom. Thanks. You grew up in what? A house? An apartment? What are we talking about?

Yep. A three bedroom house. Yeah. And it's a pretty decent neighborhood. What'd your dad teach you about money and your mom also? I think they both taught me to spend money when you need to. If you need something like education or clothes or gear for your job, then you should make that happen. You should spend that money. Were they both into the outdoors like you?

Yeah. Cool. So that's a good place for careers out of it, but yeah. Okay, cool. What else did they teach you about money? Saving was important, um, to have some money, um, just in case. And then also they, they taught me to, um, be charitable with my money, which I don't necessarily practice these days. Okay. They sound like great parents, great lessons too. I think so. Yeah. You have pretty positive memories of your childhood.

Absolutely. Yeah. Hannah, any of that surprised you hearing that? No, it doesn't surprise me. I feel guilty, not guilty. I feel weird because I feel like your dad has talked to me about more about money and you growing up than maybe you. He told me recently that he was always wishing that his or not always, but

At a certain point in time, he was wishing that his mom would work just a little bit more, like see more people and just make a little bit more money. And in hearing that, I was like, oh no, is this the... Do we have a similar dynamic to what his mom and dad had? That was my thought. I never thought about that. I guess it's possible. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess my mom was pretty stressed about money a lot. I think that was a big item of discussion. What do you remember about your mom being stressed, if you're comfortable sharing? Yeah, I think they argued about money, what to spend it on. My dad was kind of the same way. They were both pretty frugal about some things, but maybe arguing about which grocery store to go to and whether a certain item can be afforded or something like that.

arguments about groceries are usually never about groceries you know they're usually about something way deeper it's hard you know as as an adult talking about your parents but there's some clues here okay hannah you're realizing that you may be replicating the dynamic that you heard jake's dad talk about you got a big smile on your face right now what's going through your head

Uh, because I'm now remembering that early on in our relationship, we fought about which grocery store to go to. Not fought, but like it would be. Hold on. What were the options? Lay out the two grocery stores for us. Which were they?

So the co-op, which is like the organic, and then there's like the cheaper store. It's like mix of organic and not organic. And I always shopped at the co-op. And he did not like that I would have a stop at the co-op and then we would go to TNC for his stuff. That is true. And I think that is still a relevant issue. I'm down to go to the co-op, but not for everything.

Do you guys ever conclude your discussions about money with a final decision? I really don't think so. Jake? Yeah, I think maybe sometimes I give in to Hannah's argument. Even in my question to you, I didn't even get a yes or no answer. Let me ask it again, Jake. Do you ever end your money conversations with a final decision? Yeah, I think so.

I don't want to push too much. What is that? I would just rather not have the argument. So I have so many questions about this grocery store example. First of all, why are you even asking? Don't you make a lot more money, Hannah? We're talking about dinner, which is always like, I don't know. It just takes so long for us to decide on what we're going to have for dinner. So we're going to go to the grocery store. Eventually, I find myself just going to TNC more, even though I don't like to go there.

Hmm. See any patterns here? I don't know if I'm doing the right thing or not. Like giving in. I don't know either, but I'll tell you that you are asking for permission when, by the way, it's your money. You are having repeated conversations with repeated patterns over and over again, even though you already know exactly what's going to happen. And then you're shrinking yourself. You're minimizing going to a place you don't even want to go or, or even having the conversation, even accepting the premise of

arguing over groceries. Don't you guys make a little too much money to be arguing over the price of like pears? It's either that or I eat alone or I like eat my own dinner. You've taken a wrong turn somewhere. If you two can't make a decision about grocery shopping, then it's no surprise that you can't make a decision about careers and living together and money and joint accounts. I think we want the same thing. I just don't know how to get there. It sucks.

Okay. Does it suck enough to change anything for you, Jake? Yeah, I definitely want that to change. I'd want to be with Hannah year round. Absolutely. I just wish I had a more concrete answer in timeframe. It's very difficult to live a rich life if you're Venmoing receipts. It's just too small.

It is. It's too small to be able to think big. I mean, you guys want to go travel to the mountains in different countries and different states. It's very difficult to do that if you're like sitting there Venmoing $5 back and forth. It's keeping you small. And in order to get to think at a bigger level, what is our savings rate? How much money are we investing together? How can one of us get a raise or whatever?

I guess it would be like climbing. If you want to get up to the top, you got to start one steady step at a time. And when you get higher, you're not going back down. You don't want to look back down. You just keep going up. Same thing here. All right. Now this is the first time I've ever used that metaphor with someone who actually knows how to climb. How did I do? I think you nailed it. That's good. Oh my God. I'm turning into an outdoorsman today. All right. Forget all this business shit. I'm coming to the mountains. All right.

Have you two talked about your rich life together? We have. We both want to go to Europe. We'd like to go to France. I would like to do stuff in the mountains. And we've talked about how we can both do a trip together. And I think it's possible. I really think we could do that. Honestly, kind of soon. When? Three years, maybe less.

I would love to do that. It sounds really exciting. I think we've talked about that. We stopped been talking about I would want to go there. Talking about the details, I think is difficult for us to go into the details. It feels like I have to motivate myself to just continue with the conversation because it just kind of dead ends.

Well, you're afraid to ask for specifics, Hannah, because you know that if you ask for specifics, you're going to get turned down, dissuaded, minimized. It's just a lot of like, imagine you two are driving, you're going back and forth and you're not actually going in a straight line to anywhere. It's just almost a circle. It's got to be frustrating. I'm frustrated. I feel like we're going in circles. I agree. I think you're on it, dude. I think, um,

I think we are going in circles, but at the same time, I know this is like a classic answer. Like we do need time, you know, like time does not that much time. You're 26. She's 31. Not that much time. We just started new careers in the last two years.

Here's how I look at it. I'm in a big hurry. Now, it doesn't mean that I'm going to make rash decisions. No, it doesn't mean that I'm going to wake up stressed every day. Not at all. I love chilling on the couch. I love having slow mornings. I'm down. And like you clearly, Jake, love to be outside. Love it. But with my life, I'm in a hurry, meaning there are things I want to do

And I know that the things I want to do are big. I don't even know how to do some of that stuff today. I don't even know how to get there. But I know that in order to get there, I got to take a couple steps today. I got to take a couple steps tomorrow. Now, here's the key. That's me. If I were with somebody who was not into that, they would find that really annoying. They would be like, dude, chill.

Things are good. Why are you always stressing? And in my head, I'm like, I'm not stressed. I love the game. I love it. So it's just a different way to look at the world. Jake, I see a big smile on your face. What is occurring to you as I say this?

That's how I feel. You're speaking my language. You're like, I am making moves. I started my career. It's been a couple of years. I'm getting this training. And what are you hearing from your partner? What are you hearing from Hannah? Faster. Every day faster. Yeah. And Hannah, what are you saying to yourself? I've been working hard since I was eight years old.

I worried because we had to, we didn't know where, if our dad, grandpa was going to provide money, I had to do that stuff. And so I've been taking on responsibility forever. And now, even now I'm about to get paid double, triple, whatever you're going to get paid. And I want to have a partner in this. I want someone who knows what that's like and is willing to put in work and make big moves. Am I getting that right, Hannah?

Exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly it. And what do you hear from Jake? I hear I'm not ready to be a partner yet, but maybe someday and just give me some time and I will want to be that at some point. Do you think that the two of you want the same thing or different things? I cannot figure it out.

I think we want the same things in the long term. We want to live together. We want to be able to travel freely. We want to not worry about money. I think those are concrete things we both want. It doesn't sound that specific to me, Jake. You want to live together? Okay, fine. You want to travel together? Where? When? How much money do you want to spend? So have you talked about the specifics of what you want? I guess not. You guys have been together three years. Maybe you've been busy.

We're here now. Should we do it now? Yeah. Sure. Can we start with the groceries? I'm down to buy all organic food at the co-op. I just can't afford it right now. That makes sense. Yeah.

I am okay paying more for groceries. I would rather it be a conversation that we had each month as opposed to every time we went to the store, having to pick out how much I spend, how much you spend. I would like it to be something that we agree on before. How about never? How about never having a conversation about pickles? What a waste of time. Yes. Why are you doing this?

I mean, I'm looking, I know your numbers. I looked at your CSP. You guys make too much money to be doing it. He wants to do it. And I am trying to compromise. I don't want to be the one that makes the new system on my own. I feel like I'm constantly like talking about it. I don't know how to motivate the conversation, I guess. Ah, motivate, motivate the conversation or motivate him. Um, motivate him. You can't motivate somebody.

They have it or they don't. Now you can shape it, you can support it, but the simplest way to get a great partner is to find the person who's already mostly what you're looking for. So what I'm looking for from the two of you is for you to be more honest than you've ever been about what you want. If you see it differently, one of you is like, I want to plan 10 years ahead. And the other is like, I don't.

I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm on my path. Then you're going to have conversations that don't feel like a puzzle piece fitting together. Okay. That's up to you two to decide if you see your lives the same way. I can't tell you that. What I'm hopefully doing here is giving you a little structure around money so that you can at least take that off the table as a reason not to connect. And then for the two of you to really have some honest conversations. What do we want? Okay.

You look nervous. It's so new to me. And I feel like I'm doing it mostly on my own. I'm excited that Jake and I...

can look at the finances together and maybe I can talk to him more about what I'm experiencing or like, I would like to be able to talk to him more and him kind of get involved. But I think that that's too big of an ask with where we're at in our relationship, where we are in a committed relationship. And I think we do want the same things in the future. It's very much I have a lot to think about on my own.

Here's an overview of their finances. Their assets, $17,500, which includes a truck and two snowmobiles. This may be the only couple I've ever spoken to on this podcast who actually needs a truck.

Their investment's $34,341. Their savings, $23,907. Their debt, $82,208. No credit card debt included there. Therefore, their net worth is negative $6,460.

Hannah's gross monthly income is $5,300. Jake's gross monthly income is $3,100. And therefore, their combined annual gross income is $101,000. Now, keep in mind that Hannah's income will more than double very soon. Let's have a pleasant discussion about some of the worst things in the world. One of them, finding a doctor.

First of all, you realize, oh, I got a problem. But you don't know if you need to call a dermatologist or a podiatrist. So you just start calling everybody. Half of them aren't even there. They don't even pick up the phones. Then when you finally get somebody on the phone, you're like, hey, I have this thing. They go, oh, okay, cool. We can see you in July. Then you ask them, are you in network?

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I have a friend of mine who's always cold. She told me she and her partner have totally different temperatures when they sleep. She goes to bed in a flannel pajama. She's got extra blankets. Her partner's running hot. So now she recently started testing the Pod Cover from 8sleep, one of our sponsors. Before she goes to sleep, she gets on the app, cranks up the heat, and when she gets into bed at night, it's already warm and waiting for her. The Pod Cover by 8sleep fits on your bed like a fitted sheet.

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Improve the way you sleep by using my link at 8sleep.com slash Ramit for $200 off plus free shipping on their high-tech pod three cover. That's 8sleep.com slash Ramit, E-I-G-H-T, sleep.com slash Ramit, R-A-M-I-T, for a better, smarter sleep. So there's a problem. I mean, there's a number of problems here, but one of the problems is, what's that fixed cost number? 83%. 83%. What's it supposed to be?

Like 60, 50 to 60. 50 to 60%. So at 83%, because you're spending so much in your fixed costs, you essentially have no money for some of the other stuff. Can you match the 350 I spend in groceries a month? No, but I have got it down to like 550, I think is what I'll be at, but I'm okay paying more for groceries. Great.

550 and 350 equals $900 a month. Cool. You lowered it by 250 bucks or so. Great. We're down to 79%. Oh, Hannah's eyes just went, oh shit. That's right, Hannah. 200 bucks ain't going to get you there. With the lifestyle you've created, if you want to live in the place you live in, have insurance, have a car, pay off the debt that you've incurred, then...

we got to do something else. So what are your options? Make more money. Yep. And you are going to make more money, right? By the way, most couples say that. And I'm just like, I immediately shut that down because it's totally delusional, but you actually are going to make more money, right? Yeah. I make 40% of what I'll be making in four or five months. What's the amount you're going to make in four or five months?

Oh, um, I, she's pulling out a piece of paper. She's been waiting. I'm pulling out my, my conscious spending plan. I think it's like 10,500. It's on the other tab. 10,551. Whoa. I think we may have just solved a number of problems. Hold on. Watch this. Jake, you better watch this closely. Remember when you said you don't care about numbers in a spreadsheet, you're about to care. Watch this. Whoa.

Wow. So cool. What's the net amount, Hannah? It's $11,106. That really changed things a lot. Jake, what do you notice? Our fixed costs have gone down to 44%. All right. Round of applause on that. That's magic. Suddenly, everything has changed. Let me cut in here to show you what actually happens when you do increase your income.

This is one of the most common questions I get. How do I increase my income? And I teach this in our Earnable program, which shows you how to find a profitable idea and start a business on the side. I'm going to throw that link in show notes for those of you who are interested in increasing your income. So your number went from roughly 83% fixed costs to now 44%.

What does this mean for your life? Can you tell me? I have no idea. I'm still just shocked by that. Yeah. Yeah. Jake, does it mean anything different to you? I mean, it's hard for me to wrap my head around change because it's not my money. Well, let me tell you what I see.

I get really excited by this because the change I just saw in your conscious spending plan to you, it's just a number. To me, it represents a complete change in your socioeconomic status. Complete. It's amazing. The fact that you are even below the 50 to 60% recommendation means you have tons of money to save, tons of money to invest.

You can go on your trip to the hot springs and go ahead, get the breakfast, get the extra thing. It's great. You can do that. You can pay off your debt faster if you choose to. But because you both are actually kind of savvy with the interest rate understanding, you don't have to. This is absolutely amazing. I didn't set in until you said that. And I'm just, I'm so proud of myself. Yeah, that's cool.

What does it mean to you? I'm proud of you too. It means that like I have more control over my life. Like if I put my mind to something, I can make it happen and I can trust myself to make it happen. I believe that. And Jake, I heard you say something just a second ago. What'd you say? I was saying I'm really proud of you too, Hannah. Thank you. Yeah. I love this. What do you think that this means for the two of you?

I think that it means I can be with him in the mountains and still have my own level of comfort. Like I can be with him, but not worry if I'm putting my future at risk. I think I will feel more comfortable being concise about the things that I want. Because? Because I...

I have the money to do it. And if I want to go to the hot springs, I can say, I want to go to the hot springs with you. And we work out of time and I can pay for it. And I don't have to worry. Can I pay for it? Can I not? Should he pay for some? Would that make it easier? It would just be...

more concise in the numbers or more apparent in the numbers that I could. I'm glad that she is able to, that gives her a sense of freedom, which will probably give both of us more freedom. Okay. That's great. Nice. Yeah. And while you may not be spending more of Hannah's money, you probably will be enjoying more of it. Would that be fair to say? Yeah. Are you okay with that? I'm cool with that. Okay. Hannah, are you okay with that?

I'm okay with it. Yes. So let's just take a look at the rest of the conscious spending plan. Your investments are 8% of take home. That's actually higher than I thought. Who's putting the money here? 400. Both of you are doing it. Wow. I'm impressed. Is this true? Jake, you're putting 150 bucks a month away for investments? Yeah, I read your book, dude. I mean, you got me on the automatic investments.

That's quite sophisticated to understand the relationship. This fucking guy, he really read this book. Okay, well done. And you're putting away 150 bucks a month. That's awesome. Hannah, you're putting away 400 bucks a month. Is that true? Yes. All right. 550 at 8%. I mean, honestly, that's better than a lot of people. I'm impressed. All right. I got no feedback. Savings, 12%.

So you have $158 a month for vacations. That's very specific. It would be nice to be able to take a trip together, like celebrating the end of the winter. Well, would you like to plan it right now? Go ahead. You have 60 seconds to plan it. Go ahead. I think it's too soon to go camping, but I would like to like maybe go to a hot springs and just like spend the night in a, in a hotel at a hot springs. Do you want to go to Chico?

I would like to go a little bit further than Chico, maybe. Okay. Well, we could look. I don't know where their hot springs are, but we can do that. Okay. So that's something that I can start to plan in a couple weeks of us doing. Yeah. I'll text you the date, and then let's find a hot spring we want to go to. Okay. This is taking longer than 60 seconds. Can we confirm this? But the weekend of May 6th and 7th is good.

Okay. I love seeing it. We got the groceries. You two are about to take another two weeks to find a date. I'm like, no fucking way. We're doing this right now. All right. So you have a date. What about the money? How are you going to decide how much to spend? I imagine I would pay for it. Okay. Is that a question or a statement? I'm okay paying for it. Are you okay with me paying for it? I'd like to contribute and I feel comfortable contributing. Okay.

I feel guilty asking you to go on a trip because you're not working right now. I hear you. I will be working, but yes. Okay. Well, that's good to know. How much? This has always been my dream. Watching two people have this very intimate conversation. Then I'm just sitting in the background on the mic. How much? I can put it in $150. Okay. Okay.

And I don't know how much it costs to go spend the night at the hot springs. Probably another $150 is all we would need, I think, with transportation and eating out for a meal. We go out to dinner. Yeah. We go out for all the meals or just one meal? Maybe a dinner and a breakfast. Okay. I don't know what the finances would look like other than I know you can contribute $150 and I can contribute the rest. How's that sound?

It sounds good. It sounds great. Okay, great. High five each other. Great job. You made a decision. Miraculous. I like when you two are decisive. No more dangling things. No more sending text messages. Just like, yeah, we're done. It's done. And now you're each off to the races. Jake's going to show up on this date. Hannah's going to book the thing. You both know how much money. Like there's no more questions. What does that feel like? It feels good. It feels really good. Yeah.

I love seeing the two of you in this situation. When you compare what you just did to some of the other conversations you've had, which seem to go in a circle, what's the difference? The conclusion, I guess. I know where I'm coming from and he knows where he's coming from in terms of what he can spend and what I can spend. Yeah. You're being honest with yourselves and honest with the people around you. This, I'm gesturing with just talking, talking, talking, talking. It's not honest.

Because when you just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, you're not even honest with yourself. You haven't taken the time to introspect and say like, what do I really want? Or what is my boundary? What do I not want? Remember this moment because this is where I want you to be working towards, especially with easy decisions like groceries and hot springs. These are easy decisions.

life will present you with much harder decisions, much bigger decisions. And what you're doing with something like this is building the skills of being able to talk about those complex things. Let me share the follow-ups from Hannah and Jake.

Hannah wrote, I was surprised by the fight or flight response I had for the remainder of the interview. I did not predict that I would be in the hot seat when I signed up to do the podcast because my partner is stressed about money on a regular basis and I am not.

I personally do not question if I want to be in a relationship with Jake. On the contrary, I enjoy living long distance part of the year because it has allowed both of us to work longer hours and delve deeper into our careers while also maintaining the excitement and passion in our relationship. One of my takeaways was that my partner wants to stay where he is financially, regardless of the panic and meltdowns I witness before most purchases he makes.

When he reaches out to me for assurance, I still don't know if I should pay for anything like his classes if he is stressing out or put my therapist hat on and help him work through his own feelings. If and when I approach money conversations, I will make sure to have the what, when, and how written down beforehand. Jake wrote and said, I was surprised by how unspecific our rich life vision was. I look forward to refining and dreaming about our rich lives.

A major takeaway of mine was the importance of conclusions and concrete decision making. I need to stop putting off decisions.

If you and your partner are interested in having healthier conversations about money, I'm going to be talking about that this Saturday on my free newsletter, iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. I'm going to show you how to start having those conversations and what to do if something potentially goes wrong in those conversations. Get on the newsletter at iwt.com slash podcast newsletter. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. And I'll see you next time.

Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I'm Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven't read I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.