Re-Release: Oprah Winfrey (2021)
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Hey, everybody. I have got a very special treat for you today. This week is the birthday of one of my favorite people on earth, the legend, the GOAT, Oprah Winfrey turns 70.

years young. So I am resharing my conversation that I had back in 2021. It's one of my favorite episodes that we've ever done. And it's time to revisit it as a happy birthday to the big O. Here's my chat with the amazing Oprah Winfrey. Oprah! Rob! Hi! Hi, darling. I'm so excited. I mean, listen, this is a big moment for my humble little podcast to have you on the show. Well, I've been waiting for the right time.

Welcome to Literally. Today is, I'm at the feet of the legend, Oprah Winfrey. I don't need to introduce Oprah Winfrey to you. To me, she is my neighbor, my friend. She's the first person who ever got behind my very first book. I actually wrote my first book on a timeframe to be able to go on her show because it was the last week of her show. I was one of her last guests.

So I'm forever indebted to what she's meant to me as a storyteller. And, you know, she's got to be the most beloved American. Right? Got to be. And doing this interview with her, I'm reminded why. There's just nobody like her. So here we go. Who was it that taught you always wait for the right time?

Arnold Schwarzenegger. Arnold Schwarzenegger. You know, you just don't go out there and talk to anyone who wants you whenever you want it. You know, it has to be on your terms. Arnold Schwarzenegger, like 1975, 74, like when he was dating Maria in Baltimore, said that to me and

And I was like, wow, that's amazing. But it's one of those things that stuck that you just don't exactly as you just said, you just don't go out there. You wait until you have something to say. You wait until you have something to share. Yeah. Very good. What other truisms do you remember from people like Arnold? You gave me...

We were talking about some great ones earlier today. I was telling you before we started that my greatest ones have come from Maya Angelou. So my greatest one – Yeah, those poet laureates. I mean they know how to wordsmith pretty well. But I used to – she was my solace. She was the mother of –

figure, the mother I never had, because in all of my days of anything happening to me, I never, ever, ever once call my mother to say, oh, look, I got this job or this, I met this guy. That wasn't the person I went to. So from the time that I met Maya Angelou, because I grew up, you know, reading her and I couldn't believe Rob that

would end up in relationship with Maya Angelou. And so the very first time I interviewed her, I was in Baltimore, young reporter, and the newsroom didn't want to do her actually. And I convinced them that you should put Maya Angelou on the news. She was speaking in Morgan State University in Baltimore.

And I went to see her and said, Miss Angelou, if you would just give me five minutes of your time. I promise five minutes of your time. I won't take any more. And I literally at four minutes, 58 seconds stopped the interview. And she turned to me, Rob, and she said, who are you, girl? Who are you? And she invited me to her home in that moment.

And I couldn't wait to get to her house. And you know what? Zach, you know what? I felt the same way about Amanda Gorman when she was speaking. The very first time I heard Amanda Gorman, I thought, who is this girl? There's something there. There's a light that's there. And that girl's going to go far in the world. So Maya saw that in me, invited me to her home, and...

The very first night I spent at her home, she read poetry to me. She sat down on the floor and read poetry, Paul Laurence Dunbar. So that was the beginning of a great relationship. But all of my great teachings came from her. During the years where I was like besieged by tabloids telling lies and stories on me and Stedman and Gail and all that, I would always call her crying and

I remember one time she said, stop it. Stop it right now. Stop it. And I say, well, you don't understand what people are saying. And then she said, stop it right now and say, thank you. And I'm good. Why would I say thank you? I'm not even. And she said, stop it or I'm hanging up the phone. And,

And I like muddled, okay, thank you. And she said, you always say thank you because God has put a rainbow in the clouds and this too shall pass. This moment will be over and you will see that there's a rainbow. The sun's going to come out and everything's going to be okay. So anyway, that was one. God put a rainbow in the clouds. The biggest though, Rob, was- That's a good one. Biggest, biggest was when people-

show you who they are, believe them the first time. She said, "Babe, people keep showing you who they are, and you keep saying they're somebody else. People always show you or tell you who they are,

and you don't believe them. So you wait until you're in some crisis with them when they've already shown you months before that this crisis was coming. So that has been it. Like when you see somebody being an asshole, that means they're an asshole. You don't have to say, oh, that's just a moment that they're an asshole. They're an asshole. You don't have to say when somebody- That's so good. Isn't it good? When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.

And also, I love that. The other one was you teach people how to treat you. So whenever I was in a situation and I'd be like, oh, my God, I can't believe this has happened. And she goes, that's happening because you've taught them that that's how they treat you. You know who else was big? Sidney Poitier was big. I had the best time of my life, actually, on Sundays talking to Sidney Poitier. I really could have written a book about it.

I'm sorry I didn't. I could have called it Sundays with Sidney. Because when I had him on the show, you know, I said this as a Golden Globe speech that when I was 10 years old, he won the Academy Award. And I in my life had never seen a black man get out of a limousine before, unless somebody had died. You know, that's the only time we were in limousine. So that night that he won the Academy Award for Lilies of the Field, I

was just the most extraordinary moment. I remember sitting, I could feel the linoleum floor. There was a green, you know, cotton blanket that we used to cover the sofa, to cover the holes in the sofa. And I was sitting on the floor watching this black and white television and he won the Academy Award. And I remember Rob thinking in that moment, wow,

a black man won, which we called ourselves colored at the time. So I really said, a colored man won. Wow, if he did that, I wonder what I can do. I wonder what I can do. Wow. - That's amazing. Your takeaway of that is spectacular.

Yeah. You were living at home still when this happened? Oh, yeah. I was living in Milwaukee with my mother who was not home. I had a half brother and sister. She was on welfare. She was, you know, she was also cheating welfare because she worked, you know, for some white folks out in the suburbs to get extra money where she made $50 a week working for them. So I was at home taking care of my brothers and sisters and

my brother and sister, and it was just the three of us. So I was there at 10 years old babysitting them. And I remember that moment thinking, I've never seen that before. And if that can happen to him, that means something could happen to me too, like that.

And so when I met him, you know, that story has lived with me forever. So the day I was going to interview, I started to tear up now thinking about it. Stop it, Oprah. Stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it, stop it. The day I was going to interview him for the first time is...

One of the most nervous times I've ever been in my life. So it was the most nervous I've ever been in my life was interviewing him and Diana Ross for the same reason. Because the night I saw Diana Ross on the Ed Sullivan show was the first time I'd ever seen Black women who looked like that, who were like beautiful and glamorous and oh my God. So the night before Sidney Poitier, I was a nervous wreck. I interviewed him. I was still a nervous wreck.

Afterwards, I went into the control room, Rob, and I laid my head down on the control room and I started, I just sobbed. And everybody in the control room was like, what's wrong with her? And I said, he's going to think I'm such an idiot. I didn't ask one thing I really wanted to ask. And I was just, I couldn't even remember what happened. You know, it's one of those times where you like,

I was so out of my body. I didn't even, I, and so, and interestingly enough, he called me after and said, he wasn't really fully himself that day. And he would like an opportunity to have another conversation, not in front of the camera, that he wasn't his best self that day. And I was like, oh my God, I wasn't my best self either. So that, that, that began our friendship.

Because that was going to be one of my questions to you is when were you most nervous interviewing? Who would it be? It was Sidney Poitier and Diana Ross. And for Diana Ross, because it was such a phenomenal moment for me that I remember when you remember Diana Ross. Are you old enough to remember Diana Ross in Central Park? I was there. No, you weren't. I was there with Andy Warhol.

There. When it started raining and she had to, the concert had to end. I was there. I was on stage there. It was the most incredible thing of my life. One of them. Wow. It was, Oprah, you have no idea. It was un-fucking-believable. I have a, seared into my memory is the angle where I was standing directly behind her.

With the chiffon blowing. My eyes are watering now that you were there. Oh, my God. You were there. The chiffon blowing. It had just gotten dark. The spotlights coming from the towers hitting her. The rain coming down in sheets. The towers now starting to shake, which is why they stopped the concert because they were worried it was going to collapse on the audience. And her singing Ain't No Mountain High Enough. Yes, yes.

Oh, my God. You were there? I'll never forget it. My head's swelling thinking about it. Anyway, so after that concert, well, I wasn't there. I was watching from my little apartment in Baltimore. I was so in awe of that whole moment. The next day, I called...

trying to find Diana Ross. Of course, I did not. So I ended up with her production company. So she had, if anybody goes to YouTube and sees it, there were these diamond earrings. And I was thinking, wow, one day I want to have diamond earrings like that. And I remember asking two things. What mascara was she wearing that did not run?

And they told me Lancome waterproof. So to this day, I still use Lancome waterproof. And what size diamonds were those? And they told me 10 carat diamonds. So my whole career, I was like,

in Baltimore making, you know, $22,000 a year, but I'm saving up so I can get those 10-carat diamonds. Now, when I finally interviewed her, she said they were not 10, they were 5 carats each. And I went, wow. I went and got the 10s and I didn't have to have the 10s. But anyway...

I overspent, but that moment seared into my memory, the power and confidence and authority and just the majesty of that moment. I'm so glad we're having this conversation because sometimes I look back on that and I go, was it just me?

No. Did I overestimate what that moment was? That was, I mean, who has moments like that in concerts anymore? I mean, and I think it probably was more emphasized because, more pronounced in our memory because it did have to end.

You know, if the concert had just continued, maybe it would not have been the same memory. But because they had to end the concert and I was so worried, oh, my God, she's holding the microphone. I hope she doesn't get struck by lightning. Oh, my God. And so that whole thing, you know. I thought she was going to get electrocuted. I did, too. It was a real thought. I did, too.

But she wouldn't get out of the rain. She stayed there for the audience. Even that, to me, was such a pronounced thing. Like, wow, she is risking her own, you know, safety to be here for the audience. Oh, incredible. Literally incredible. And then, Oprah, I got to after. So we all scattered through Central Park and Andy Warhol and I and my date and

went back and had dinner and then went and watched the playback of the concert with Diana. It was, well, you were Rob Lowe, so you could do anything. I mean, I, I, I had a little, you know, I had my Forrest Gump period where I was kind of in, in play before I went into my gentleman retirement Montecito. Well, you know what, I've always wanted to ask you because, you know, I have this book out, what happened to you. And as I was preparing to talk to you today, I,

I was thinking, I wonder what happened to Rob and how it shaped. So obviously you grew up being a cute little boy and have now the thing that people remark, because when I told people I was going to be doing this interview, it's like, God, he never ages. He doesn't age. He doesn't age. He doesn't age. How does he do that? So I'm wondering,

When you are born the cute little kid who evolves into the man who is the handsome guy, how does being what you look like affect who you are? How has that affected who you are? Well, the first part of it is I wish that when I was younger I was cute. What I actually was was pretty.

And that as a boy is not what you want to be. Ah. Because, I mean, I, you know, I was, you know, people called me f***.

All the time. I mean, I got that 24-7. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I never talk about this. This is the first time I ever talked about it because it's one of those things when we were talking about your book, What Happened to You? in the previous interview that we did for you. It is one of the things that happened to me and I've always been in the like, never complain, never explain thing.

You know, kind of vibe where I'm not going to revisit it. So people talk shit about me. So what? But the truth of it is, we know today that that stuff affects you. We know that today. And actually, if it had happened to me in today's culture, there would have been an audience for me to come to and say, hey, this is going on. And people would have been like, oh, no, it's not. We're going to fucking step in and stop it. And those days people are like, so? Yeah.

So, yeah, you're going to complain about being pretty. You're going to complain about being pretty. That is so interesting because I was thinking I remember years ago when I had Sybil Shepard and a bunch of other models on. And it was actually Sybil Shepard is the first woman model.

that ever admitted that the beauty was a power. Because every other interview I'd ever done with models, they always say, oh no, and I have this and then my thighs and I have cellulite. They wouldn't admit that there is actual power in beauty. And it was Sybil who said, not only is there power in beauty, but she remembered when having her own daughter's

the moment you feel like you've lost that power, when all the eyes turn to the younger women and are no longer on you. And I was just thinking as I was preparing to talk to you today, wow, that must have had an impact on you when your external presentation is how people view you and so much of how people see you is connected to your beauty.

Well, you were talking about phrases that we love and truisms. This brings up my personal favorite, which is never compare your insides to someone else's outsides. And, you know, I have never felt like – well, for a long time. For a long time growing up, I never felt like the way I looked. Like I looked like the guy who should be king of the prom.

Right? Like almost a caricature of it, frankly. Yeah. And I wasn't. I was a child actor in a time when people weren't. And everybody – like I said, everybody thought I was gay because I liked the theater and it was pretty. So, you know, because I can sing you the entire book of Oklahoma. So I can't – so – and so I always felt –

different, you know, in that way. And then, and then I got to the point where I owned it and do feel the civil shepherd of it all. I mean, let's face it. It's, it's, you know, I, I, I'd rather, I'd rather, you know, be, you know, leading man than not. So, you know, looking like leading man's a good thing, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's great. And so it, it, it, it has, you, you at some point moved into ownership of it and accepting it and, and,

letting it work for you and not trying to push against it. 100%. And by the way, that's in every aspect. We talked, we opened this by talking about Arnold. And the one thing, I mean, I love Arnold. Arnold's very flawed and he's very wonderful and very accomplished, but he's a hero to me because of what he's done with his life and where he's come from. And, um,

But one of the things I loved most about him when I got to know him is how he owns, for better or for worse, he owns every sense of his like life. I'll always remember going into restaurants with him and people like, oh, Mr. Schwarzenegger, we have a quiet table back in the VIP. Why would I want to be there? I want to be out to where the action is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hold that thought. We'll be right back.

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Have I ever told you my Tali Savalas story? No, you have not. So, okay, it's 1974. Tali Savalas is the biggest television star on the planet. Kojak. Come on, you had to watch you some Kojak back in the day. Yeah, I mean, I was aware of Kojak, but I was not a Kojak girl, but go ahead. You're not a Kojak girl?

I would have totally had you down as a Kojak girl. No, no, he's not a Kojak girl. Go ahead. But you will stipulate for the court that Kojak was a sensation. What was a sensation? There was nobody who wasn't watching Kojak, okay? Thank you. Except you. Great. Perfect. So Oprah Winfrey is the one person in the world who is not watching Kojak. The entire planet is watching Kojak. Kojak is coming to Dayton, Ohio to Reich's department store to sign autographs.

And I'm living in Dayton, Ohio, and I'm six or whatever I am, eight, nine, whatever the hell. And I get on the bus and I want to be an actor. I've never seen an actor. I've never seen a real actor. I've certainly never seen Kojak, the biggest star in the world. And I know his character has lollipops. That's his shtick. He always had a lollipop. So I take my allowance. I buy a bag of lollipops for him. I'm going to give him some lollipops too.

So I'm standing in the line to get my autograph, get Kojak's autograph. And it's long, long. Everybody in Dayton showed up, man. I mean, this line is weaving through the sporting good aisle down to the women's lingerie. I mean, it's long and I'm in it and I'm alone. Yeah. And we get to the front of the line. And the minute I get to the front of the line, they close it down.

That's it. Thank you very much. Tully Savalas has a flight to catch. Thank you and good night. And I'm Mike.

I get it. You know, I mean, he's got things to do. He's got to go make kojak. That's okay. But I did. So I looked for, somebody looked official and I was like, hey, would you? And I found some guy who I clearly today know would have been like a bodyguard or a roadie. Would you give Mr. Savalas these lollipops that I got for him? And the guy was like, yeah, kid, I sure will. That's great. Oh, thank you so much. Go, thank you. And I turned and walked away. And as I went down the escalator, I turned and watched him throw them into the trash can. So from that moment on. Oh, wow.

I've always been like super empathetic because I remember what it was like to be a fan. Yep. I don't want to give somebody the Kojak moment. Yep. You don't want to give somebody the, now I'll be using that. You don't want to give somebody the Kojak moment. No, you don't. But hey, at least it wasn't Kojak. It wasn't him. That's right. It wasn't Kojak. That's right.

That's right. That would have been terrible because if it was Kojak, then you could never watch the show again. No. I might have quit acting. Or, yeah. I mean, can you imagine? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But now you know how that works, though. People take the da-da-da, they take the da-da-da. That's why when

When I'm out, people are giving me stuff. I give it to my team member. We bring, we lug all that stuff back. We lug it all back and go through it and sort it and all that. Yeah, absolutely.

For that reason. Because it's, I remember how, I mean, it meant so much to me to take the time out. And I did it with my allowance. And that's a big deal. You know, I get it, man. When people show up, you know, and want to give you something, it's amazing. Because I'm still a fan. I think the minute anyone stops being a fan, and boy, in your line of work, it's got to be super true. If you stop being a fan and stop being interested, you're done. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, in our line of work, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the truth. Well, you don't for an actor, but if you're going to be interviewing people, the curiosity that is needed, the interest in actually what happened to somebody is, is, is, is a part of the game. That's, that's the rule is that your natural interest, your authenticity at it. Do you, are you enjoying this, this phase of your life doing this? I'm absolutely loving it. I have to tell you. What do you love most about it? What do you love most about it?

I think it allows a big part of who I am to come out. And that is I'm really super curious. Yeah. And I'm a fan nerd geek. And so I get to nerd out and fan out to people I admire and love. And I like talking, but I don't like small talk. Like I don't – not that I need to be uber serious all the time because I'm – believe me, people listening now are like, please, this is anything but serious, this podcast. But –

But I liked it to be about something. And this gives me the outlet to do it. And the other thing is having been on the other side of these interviews, I miss the days of your show was one of the last shows, man, where it wasn't like they would ask you two questions and then you had to play pin the tail on the donkey blindfolded. I just can't. I can't, as the kids say today. Oprah, I can't.

I do it because I have to do it. And I know why those shows do it. But long form conversations, as you know, have migrated away from, you know, where we grew up loving them and watching them. I remember watching The Tonight Show and when Burt Reynolds would come on or whoever you were like, oh, this is going to be... Right? Yes. So...

I get to make that happen. Oh, gosh. I have a Burt Reynolds story. I ask, you know, of flubs in the world. This is when I was younger and I was not, like, living from the point of view of the surrogate. But I was. I did feel a responsibility to have to ask the questions that the viewer wanted. And Sally Field was on. Oh, boy. My big mistake. I asked her, does Burt sleep with his toupee on?

O-M-G. Yeah. I even say now, I cringe to even think that I asked that question. But I asked it because the producers are like, you have to ask, you have to ask, you have to ask. That's what everybody wants to know. And so I asked it and she went cold on me. She shut down and I could not get in again. I could not. Listen.

I worked with Sally for four years on Brothers and Sisters. I know, I know. She's one of the most amazing actors I've ever known. But when Sally goes cold, it is like Khrushchev in the Cold War. He will bury you. Whoa, Sally went cold on the on live TV. I deserved it. I deserved it. I deserved it because that is such an inappropriate question.

Meanwhile, I still want to know. I want to know. Well, she certainly didn't answer it. Oh, my God. And then it didn't matter whatever else I said. What was the most uncomfortable interview you've ever had other than that? Uncomfortable? I can't. Oh, it wouldn't have been with anybody. One of the most uncomfortable, actually, that turned out to be really revelatory, because I always went approached every interview from,

Not just what am I going to ask the person, but what can I also gain from it? What is this here to show me or teach me or teach the audience? So I was interviewing, I think I was in Cleveland, Ohio. I'd gone to this place where I was interviewing men who battered their wives and would admit to it on television. And I was in the middle of it and I was really uncomfortable in that situation. Yeah.

And I asked the guy why he did it, and he said he didn't want to do it. He didn't want to do it, and that every time he did it, he felt like, you know, I'm never going to do that again. But when he would hit his wife, throw her against the wall, be violent toward her, he felt a sense of power.

And a sense of adrenaline and a sense of literally not out of control, but in control. He felt like this is what he needed to do as a man. And he said, and immediately after I'm done, I feel really bad about it. And I hate myself. And I say, I'm never going to do that again. And I say, oh, that happens to me with everything.

with sweets, with potato chips, with whatever. So it sounds to me like you're addicted to it. So it's the first time I was in a conversation that started out to be uncomfortable talking with somebody who admitted to being violent. And I realized, oh, that guy is addicted to...

His bad behavior in the same way that people are addicted to alcohol or addicted to drugs, because this whole I do it, I do it, I do it. I'm sorry. And as soon as I finish doing it, I get satiated in the doing of it. And then at the end, I'm like, I'm never going to do that again. And then it happens again. And I can't explain to myself why. So.

That's one of them. That's one of the things I love about your book, What Happened to You. I don't think you've properly mentioned it yet. So Oprah has a brand new book co-written with Bruce Perry. Dr. Bruce Perry. Dr. Bruce Perry, who's – I'm just going to say he's a brain expert. It's a lot fancier than that, but he's a brain expert. And it's conversations on trauma and resilience and healing.

And just the sort of notion of all of the things that go on in our lives, these sort of landmines that get placed by traumas,

Sometimes as early in our lives as four or five months old, we might not even remember how they re-trigger us in our lives. And unless we excavate those things and sort of look at them, we're likely to stay in these cycles, in just this type of cycle you're describing with that kind of abuse. That's exactly –

what the book talks about. But you know what? Yes. Well, thank you for mentioning the book. But this is what I had so many, as I said to you in a previous conversation that you were kind enough to do for us for bookstores.

that I've never had therapy. I had all my therapy in front of audiences. And one, everybody knows who's followed me in the Oprah show and my story knows that I was sexually abused, you know, from nine to 14, that, you know, I was raped at nine years old and, you know, suffered a lot of trauma from that. But it was on an Oprah show where I was interviewing people

child sexual molesters that I had my biggest revelation, aha experience about my past abuse. So I was interviewing these molesters and one of them, because all the years, even when I'd heard people on the show say, you can't blame yourself. It's not the child's fault. It's really not your fault. There was a part of me that always felt that if I hadn't played

you know, tickle toes with my cousin because it started out in a bed. I was nine years old. He was 19 and he was tickling me. And tickling led to, you know, rape. And at the time that it happened to me, I had no, I even, I'd never seen a man's penis. I didn't even know what was happening. So anyway, for years, I blamed myself that if I hadn't been tickling, played the tickling game, then it would never would have happened. Right.

So I was interviewing these child molesters and one of them explained to the audience he had been grooming his stepdaughter, who was 13 years old, and how he had for weeks been playing the tickling game.

And that he would sometimes just walk by and just tickle her and she would just laugh or whatever. And then they started playing games where he would be able to like wrestle her. But it started out with tickling, moved to wrestling. And he said, I was, my next move was being able to move to her breasts. And I wanted to be able to

touch her breasts in such a way to see if she was going to have a reaction. And if she had a reaction, then I would back off. And if she didn't have a reaction, then I could know that I could continue. And he's explaining this on national television. Oh, my God. And so when he moved to, this is over a period of weeks, he'd been doing this, grooming her. And so he said one day he brushed up against her breasts and touched her breasts with his hand. And she said, what are you doing?

That's when he knew he had to stop. So he said to preempt her, he went to his wife and called her the wife, which I always hated when people call people the wife. It's like an object. I went to the wife. I went to the wife and I said to the wife that,

Oh, I was playing with Samantha and this thing happened where I was just really playing with her. And then she took it the wrong way and she was so upset with me. But I just want you to know in case she comes to you. So when the daughter did go to her mother and say this weird thing happened, the mother said, oh, he's already come to me and told me about that. Don't worry about that, honey. He didn't mean anything by it.

But that was all a part of the grooming process. So hearing the molesters talk on national television to me about the process of grooming their own stepdaughters and people in the neighborhood and everybody had their own system for doing it is where I had the, that was planned. That was planned. Yeah.

He meant that was meant to happen. All those years I thought, oh, that just happened and that was part of my fault because I allowed him to tickle me. Oh, that was a part of the process. So I would have to say that that show, the Oprah show, although I never had a moment's therapy experience,

with a therapist, the experts, the stories, the people being willing to share themselves in the way that they did over the years became the biggest life lesson teaching example for me. I mean, I am so grateful to have had that. I'm grateful to have been able to share people's stories with the audience, but the sharing of their stories actually helped me

my own life. You know, I became a better, stronger person as a result of hearing all those stories, particularly the abuse story and the domestic violence story. I learned a lot. But how were you able to be so honest in front of America almost from the get go? Well, I had had a show in Baltimore, Rob, where someone had shared because I didn't tell anybody about my abuse until

I was in my 20s. I think I was 22 and my mother came to visit and I told her. And the first thing she said was, I don't want to know who did it because she thought it was one of her boyfriends. And so she said, if that's the case, I don't want to know. So that's so I knew then, oh, you were right to never tell. You were right to never tell anybody, because if you had told somebody,

My nine-year-old self knew that if I tell somebody, it's going to be blamed on me. Somehow it's going to come back to me and I will be blamed for it. And so one of the things that happened early on in Baltimore, I was doing a talk show, local talk show called People Are Talking before I moved to Chicago and all that happened after Chicago. And there was a woman on who told her, shared her story. And the story was almost exactly like mine.

She was Black. It happened to her with one of her relatives. She's telling the story, and literally, it's the first time it ever occurred to me that somebody else had had that experience. And so I wanted to say something, but I was too ashamed and too afraid. So when she went back into the green room, I said, "Oh my God, the same thing happened to me."

And she said, "Well, why didn't you say something?" And I said, "Well, I couldn't say that on TV. I couldn't say that because then what would people think? I don't know. I couldn't say that." And she said, "Well, I just did it. You just had me here on your show and I just did it." And so then I felt ashamed that I didn't support Porter. But it actually was actually the first time it ever occurred to me, this has happened to someone else. I am not the only person this has happened to.

And so when I became host of AM Chicago in Chicago and somebody shared their story on television, live TV, I said, I'm not going to let that happen again. Wow. I said, and me too. That happened to me too. Was that a huge impact? It was so huge. I cannot even tell you.

that there was a floodgates of

people writing like this was back before, obviously, there was internet. And so we were getting thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of letters. So many that we brought in other people to open the letters and thousands. So I did a series of shows about it. So the truth is all those years of doing the Oprah show, I was guided by the audience. I always thought I was a surrogate viewer. I was there to represent them.

And whatever the audience was telling me was going on with them, I was basing my shows upon that. So after I disclosed having, you know, really, I was just trying in that moment to support the person who was sharing their story. No idea that this was like a national, international world issue. And did multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple shows about it over the years as a result of that.

But, you know, I got I took the lessons from the people, you know, toward the, you know, for 10 years, I did nothing but sign autographs and shake hands with people after the show the first 10 years. And then one day I was I had a doctor's appointment in the middle of the day and I couldn't shake hands with the first audience because I was doing two shows a day. And I realized, oh, my God, I have so much more energy, even though I had to go to the doctor in the middle of the day.

I didn't realize how draining it is to shake 320 hands, listen to 320 stories, sign 320 autographs. So I stopped it. I said, you know what? I'm not going to do that anymore. What I will do is sit and talk to people afterwards because what do I really want, which is the most important question anybody can ask. What do I want? Oh, I don't want to do that anymore. The only reason I'm doing it is because I'm thinking people, we said we would do it. People.

People expect it or whatever. People expect it. And as you know, sometimes before they even get out the door, that autograph, they don't even know what they did with it. And so I started then, 10 years in, just sitting, talking to people after the show. We called it the after show. And that after show was my national focus group. It's how I knew what was going on in women's lives, what was happening with their relationships, with their kids. And so...

Around the mid-90s, there was a consensus, actually, in the audience. Women kept saying the same things. You know, I've done everything right. I played by the rules. I did what I was supposed to do. And now I'm feeling like there's got to be something more. There's got to be something more. And so I said to the producers, there's something to this, something more.

We need to be thinking about what that something more is and how do we offer that to the audience in a way that they can better see themselves. So that's what happened. So I would put a producer in the audience after every show, taking notes on what the audience was saying, and we would build our shows around what the audience was saying. That's so brilliant. It's so obvious. You pay attention to what the audience is saying. And we'll be right back after this.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount. Terms and conditions apply. One of the things I'm struck with hearing you talk is how rewarded a person, any of us, no matter where we are in our lives, anybody listening, authenticity, honesty, sharing your story is only going to bring good things into your life.

One thousand percent. Do you know what I mean? And like it can be with anybody. It's you're in an adversarial relationship with someone at work or your neighbor or, you know, somebody hates Trump and you love Trump, whatever, whatever. I mean, you don't have to go far in today's world to figure out an adversary, unfortunately. And if you share your story with

It takes all the intensity out of it and you can see them as the human being they are. It literally is the what happened to you from the book. It's like... Yeah, but it's changed the way I see people. And what I realized is, you know, the articulation of that question

has helped me see people differently. But I also recognize that the stories that were being shared all those years on the show was really about what happened to people. And that's why people felt so...

elevated and empowered by the sharing of their stories. It is rare that I've encountered anybody who has shared their story and didn't feel the better for it. Because even after you've just told a few people, not to mention a whole national audience, even after you've told a few people, it relieves the burden for you. It releases something in you. And it's also the case with me.

I hadn't talked about being sexually abused as a child. And then over the years, every time I talked about it, it became easier to share, became easier to share, became easier to share. And so my own healing came from being vulnerable and open enough to share the story. And anybody who's listening to us now, you know, your secrets kill you.

Your secrets and your shame is what really, I think, diminishes a life and prevents you from becoming more of yourself. And so the whole goal here as human beings is how to become more of you, not more of what somebody else's expectation, somebody else's definition, but how do I become more of myself? And by doing that, like you're saying, the more you shared the...

the less shame you carry around an issue. It's like...

It's what Brene Brown has now studied on all those vulnerability studies and what Brene talks about in Rising Strong. The very first time I talked to Brene on air, I was like, oh, wow, I've been doing this all these years, but I didn't call it vulnerability. I just was sharing my story and helping other people share their story. But what people don't recognize is the real power in relationships is

you know, you know this, being married as long as you have, is that you're being vulnerable and opening up is what brings true intimacy. You're being vulnerable with your kids. You're being vulnerable with anyone whom you can trust. Because as Brene says, you don't just go throwing around your vulnerability to anybody who will listen. But you're being vulnerable is where the real power lies. Because that's the truth of you. And people respond to your truth. I also feel like

So vulnerability, shame. And the other thing is resentments. For me, like as a recovering alcoholic, up there on the list of like areas I can't get into are resentments. I cannot – they will kill you, resentments, kill you. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I just learned this one this week. I know it's – you probably learned it years ago, but all these years of –

you know, therapy and being around people in recovery and having talks like this with people I admire. I'd never heard this one. And that is, if you have a huge resentment problem with, angry with, someone screwing you over, whatever it is, say a prayer and thank God or the world, whoever you pray to, be thankful for them because you can't be in gratitude and resentment at the same time. And that blew my mind.

You can't be in gratitude and resentment at the same time. So if you can just get in gratitude, your resentments are going to go away. Well, gratitude is my religion. I don't know if you know that. That is my religion. I practice it. It is the one actual physical, mental, emotional, spiritual thing that I do. But I physically write things down that I'm grateful for. Give me your daily – I'm dying to this. You've woken up in the morning.

I want to wake up with Oprah. What happens? Okay. Just before in that very kind of lucid kind of before you open your eyes and like, you know, you're still alive breathing moment. I've trained myself to say thank you.

I've trained myself that the first thing that comes out of my head is not, oh, what is the day? But the first thing that comes out of my head is, first thing is thank you. Before I rise, before I put my feet on the floor, it's like, thank you. I'm alive. I am breathing. It's another day. And, you know, it's getting Sadie out. And now I do a thing of just...

fresh mint from the garden and ginger and make my own ginger tea. And I have like a little morning room where I watch the clouds. I sit there in stillness and

Sometimes I do a formal meditation. Many times I don't. It's just me and stillness because we are born of it. We come from it. That is who we are. That is the still space inside of all of us. That's where all of your answers lie. And so I try to honor that in some form.

whether it's five minutes or three minutes or 12 minutes or 20 minutes, just to acknowledge that that's where I'm coming from for the day. And everything should come out of that space and not, you know, open up your phone and whatever somebody, because what, if you open up your phone first, now there's your day. There's your day guided by all of the emails and all of the people and all the text messages that you now need to respond to. Now that's in your head. So I do that little thing first.

And then I start the day, then I open up the phone. But I have to say, I'm a really and have always been a pretty reflective person. Therefore, the pandemic has been not as painful and as excruciating to me as it would be to other people. Because the real truth is, I am an introvert, living my life as an extrovert, but I am happiest when I am home alone.

And or just with my dogs or Stedman's somewhere nearby. I know he's here, but I don't have to talk to you. Oh, I hear you. I hear the song you're playing.

Yes. So, you know, I do well in extroverted activities, but basically, you know, you were saying earlier, you don't like small talk. It actually makes me cringe and gives me anxiety when I have to be in a situation where I'm around people and I now have to make up something to say or some kind of small talk. I like meaningful conversations. I prefer being in a group of

you know, six to 12 friends at your house for a dinner than being in a large group. I'm gonna have more fun sitting around a smaller group of people, having real exchanges than being in a great big party thing where everybody, oh, look who's there and look who's there and look who's there and people looking at the door to see who the next person is coming in. And so having time to literally be with myself,

is how I celebrate life. I mean, I had a moment the other night, I'm telling you, it was the most fantastic thing. The moon, you know, there was a full moon last week. Yeah, the pink moon. The pink moon. I was going to say, pink moon. Yeah. You're on it. The pink moon. And then the month before was the snow moon. The snow moon was not. Okay. So the pink moon was shining so brightly into my room, like it, you know, pre-dawn, of course. It woke me up.

The peak moon is shining so brightly. Same? Same. Woke me up. Woke you up. Woke me. Rob, woke me up. I'm telling you, brothers and sisters, you and me. Brothers and sisters. Yep. From another mother. Yeah, brother from another mother. So I get up and I go out onto the balcony, Rob. And it is like, there it is, glistening over the ocean. The ocean is doing that sparkly, glittery, it looks like glass thing.

and reflecting off of it. And it is so still, so silent, you can hear your own self breathing. And I just kind of looked around in awe of that moment and felt so connected to the stillness, to the ocean, to the moon, to the silence, to even the rooster crowing in the distance. And that was an awesome moment for me.

That I kind of like ingest it. You know, I said, okay, let me just not observe this, but how do I just take this in? Which I did. And I still feel it. You know, I'm moving around with the moon in me. Yeah. It's so great. I mean, and what I love is of all of the amazing life that you have, that it's that, that is something that anybody. That anybody. Anybody could experience anything.

Yeah. That is if you're willing to pay attention. That is if you're willing to pay attention. And then yesterday I was just sitting on the porch and I was just watching how the wind literally moved

through the trees, how the leaves started at the bottom and then they moved up and then leave. I mean, so anyway, I'm a very reflective person, Rob. I'm the same. You and I are doing the exact, living almost the exact same life. I'm doing gratitude in that weird nether area where you wake up and right before you, same thing, where you almost can't even talk if you wanted to. That's right, you can't. That state. I'm doing it in the morning and doing it at night and I'm doing a meditation.

And same thing, I'm fascinated with the way, it's like either we're just, people are listening to it, yeah, those two are just getting old. Yeah.

The listeners are like, yeah, yeah. That's old folk shit right there. I'm going out to the clubs and I'm doing my thing. That's how I'm getting my life together. I miss you. This makes me realize how much I miss you and how long it's been since we've ever properly seen each other with this pandemic. But you're coming home to this home. Yes. Yes. And we are going to take a walk. I want to see everything that's going on in your fabulous property.

I want to walk amongst the trees with you and talk about the wind. Okay. We can do that. And then I want to see if Stedman's golf game has improved at all. Okay. I think it has because he's done it ever since we got the vaccination. So he went a year and wouldn't hit a ball because I was like, you can't be out there touching golf balls. So went a year. That's right.

I wouldn't allow him to play golf. Wouldn't allow. He was probably helped his game. I don't know if it has or not, but I will have to say that now since vaccination, he's been out every single day. I'm saying you could only play with other vaccinated people because everybody's vaccinated. We got our cards.

Yep. Amazing. Absolutely. It's amazing. I'm ready. Tell them I'm ready for our next twosome. And thank you so much. This has been such a highlight. I know this is going to be a huge episode. And again, the book, What Happened to You? It's a mind blower and I recommend it for anybody. And I love you, darling. Enjoy your last little bit of Hawaii. And I'll see you when you get back. Okay. Literally. Okay. Bye. Bye, honey. Bye, honey. I mean, that's Oprah Winfrey right there.

I could listen to her all day long. She's so smart. She's so intuitive. She's so humble. What I love about Oprah is she's so connected to her authentic self. And she lives a big life, man. We all know it. She's probably the first billionaire performer, probably. And at the end of the day, as you heard, where she takes her solace and gets her juice out of her life isn't with all that stuff. It's with looking at the moon.

I think it's an amazing, amazing message. And she's an amazing woman. And I love having Oprah. That's how she did it, right? That's how she would introduce people. I'm pretty sure. I really missed my moment. Fuck. I'm going to go back and do it again. Can we redo the opening where I go, Oprah Winfrey? Anyway, I will see you next week. Tell me what you thought about this particular episode on the comments on Apple because that really helps us. And

You have an assignment from Oprah Winfrey and me. Tell two friends, not 10, you have to do 10. You can do two. You probably live with two people. Tell two people to listen to this podcast and then I'll be Oprah. All right. It is time for the lowdown line. Hello. You've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-

four, five, five, one. So have at it. Here's the beep. Mr. Lowe, this is Aaron from Eugene, Oregon. I wonder with all your success in everything you've ever done, what intimidates you still? What, what makes you nervous when you wake up in the morning? Thanks. Love the podcast. Bye. Aaron. Thank you. Um, it's funny you say what, what makes me nervous when I wake up in the morning. Um,

Because that no longer happens to me. I don't wake up nervous in the morning because I started taking Zoloft so long ago. And I got to tell you, the minute that happened, you know, I wake up and it doesn't feel like a train is going to hit me that day. Just saying. But seriously, folks, what makes me nervous when I wake up in the morning? I'm just going to say what came up. I'm not going to self-edit. What came up for me is feeling like I have too much time on my hands.

Which I don't, ever. I'm working on, you know, 911 Lone Star. I'm doing other projects. I'm doing this podcast and maybe do another one. You know, I got a lot going on. But when I don't have something going on, I can wake up and be like, now what? And that is probably why my good friend Aaron, that I'm deep into psychiatry. Because that is not something to be proud of. Don't follow my...

my lead on this. Having nothing to do can be amazingly freeing. I'm told. Thank you. You have been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe. Produced and engineered by me, Devin Tory Bryant.

Executive produced by Rob Lowe for Lowe Profile. Adam Sachs and Jeff Ross at Team Coco. And Colin Anderson and Chris Bannon at Stitcher. The supervising producer is Aaron Blairt. Talent producer, Jennifer Samples. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts. And remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Team Coco production in association with Stitcher.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply.