Jon Cryer: No Coke for Duckie
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I wrote a memoir a few years ago, and at one point we were going to call it No Coke for Ducky because no one ever offered me drugs because I think they just thought I was a musical theater nerd, which I am, and I don't do drugs, but I think people just sensed it. They were like, that guy's a dork. We're not going to offer him drugs. And that actually obviously worked out great for me. Hey, everybody.

I'm so glad you're here on Literally. John Cryer is here. I've been looking forward to this one because we... He's Brat Pack adjacent. He's not in the pack per se, but he is adjacent to the pack. And I feel like we have had some times together, but not sure. But yet, maybe it's because...

He's been on TV forever and so many great shows. I feel like I know him, but I don't think I actually do. There's a lot to unpack is really what I'm trying to say. And it's time to start unpacking with John Cryer. Hey, Rob Lowe. What's going on? How are you? I'm trying to think of like, we've spent time together, but like, I don't have a time, like...

But you left no impression whatsoever. John, you left no impression. Do I know you, John? Well, we have been in the same circles for decades, obviously. And the crazy thing was I just met Kiefer Sutherland like two weeks ago for the first time in my life. And that's nuts. That's weird. I kind of feel the same way with us. I feel like we haven't had the proper amount of FaceTime together.

No, we have not. We have not. So this is I'm very much looking forward to this. Although we actually our paths almost crossed at one point many, many years ago because

Kenny Ortega approached me about doing a big song and dance number during the Oscars where they wanted to have old Hollywood sort of meet young Hollywood. Oh, yes. And I remember I really wanted to do that. I think I had a scheduling thing because I love Kenny Ortega, the choreographer. I was like, yeah, are you kidding? Beyond the Oscars? This is going to be great. And then and I was just crying.

I was crestfallen that I was not able to participate. And then you had the fun of actually being a part of that number. I know. Now, were you because there were two. I get all the flack for the horrendous boondoggle, the Waterloo that was the opening of the Oscars. But what people forget was the other number.

which was called Young Hollywood. That was it. That was what he wanted me to be a part of. So maybe you would have been swinging on the rope that Christian Slater swung in on. Yes. And you're absolutely right in that the whole thing was a boondoggle. Absolutely. It was poorly thought out. Let's just say that. You know, Alan Carr was the guy that came to produce it. And that...

taught me my one of my number one isms of Hollywood is never trust a man in a caftan. Yes, that's or or or never trust a producer who makes the movie version of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band without the Beatles. Yeah, it'd be another one. Yes, maybe that was also ill ill considered. Uh,

But, dude, first of all, let's have Snow White sing for 20 minutes or so. I mean, that was not, again, I don't know what they were thinking. But God bless you, man. You absolutely, manfully did.

got through that thing. I soldiered on, I will never forget looking out, that was the year of Rain Man, right? Oh, okay, sure. That was the year when Rain Man won 75 Oscars. And as a young actor, the person, the director that you would want to impress more than anybody in the planet is Barry Levinson. And I remember in the middle of the number fixating on Barry, in the middle of that sea of famous people,

on Barry Levinson. It was like a fucking spotlight was hitting him in the face. I couldn't take my eyes off of him. And John and I am not, I am not kidding you when I say I saw him mouth very clearly, what the fuck? Yeah.

And then, and then, you know, your actor's ego takes over. You're like, how the fuck does Barry Levinson know? I'm killing, you know? Let's go on with the show. Well, dude, yeah, again, but, but like I said, I want, I, there, but for the grace of God, you know, I, I wanted to be there too. You know, I've,

Well, listen, you've been on Broadway. Obviously, you're a Neil Simon guy, but did you do musical musical theater as a young'un?

As a young'un, I did it like, I went to a theater camp called Stage Door Manor. It was, you know, so I did a lot of it there. And I, you know, I did Company at Lincoln Center. Oh, no way. That's my big musical credit. Wait, when did you do Company? I love that. I just saw the revival. I saw the, before it came to Broadway, I saw it in the West End, that iteration of the new Company, which is fantastic. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a remarkable re-imagining of it. but yeah, I had, uh, no, it actually was, uh, I don't know if you remember, there was a guy, I used to do a TV show, uh, called two and a half men with, uh, Charlie, Charlie Sheen. I know this gentleman. Uh, yes. And at one point he went insane. Uh,

Yes, I recall something like that happening. Yeah, something like that vaguely. And he got fired from the show and the show shut down. And the only offer I got at that moment of being suddenly unemployed was to do company at Lincoln Center. Wow. And it was but was it was a.

I had been told it was like an Encores! production. And you've seen Encores! productions. They're like with the script in hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, they throw them together really quick, just a beloved old lost musicals or whatever. And they're really fun. So I had been told that it was going to be one of those deals.

It was at Lincoln Center. I was like, oh, that'll be fun. You know, we only have two weeks to rehearse, but Neil Patrick Harris is playing Bobby and Patty LuPone is in it. Jesus Christ. And Stephen Colbert was in it and Christina Hendricks. And it was this nutty, nutty cast. And I remember they asked...

I got a call from the director saying, oh, you know, tomorrow's your first choreography rehearsal. And I said, I beg your pardon. This was an Encore's production. We're not we're not doing choreography. He was like, oh, no, this is a fully staged production of Company. That was just you just misunderstood, dude. And I was like, but we're only doing it in two weeks. And Neil Patrick Harris missed the first week because he was doing How I Met Your Mother.

Um, so, uh, I get to the, to the, uh, to Lincoln center and I'm asking like Stephen Colbert and I'm like, dude, did, did you know that this was a fully staged production? He was like, no, I have to go to karate class. Cause I do karate in the first, in the first number, you know, we were, uh, uh,

Me and him and Martha Plimpton, we did not know that it was a fully staged production. We were just sort of drafted into it. But it was really incredibly fun. And they actually shot it and they played it in theaters. And Neil Patrick Harris is a flippant revelation in it. He's amazing. It was the first time Patti LuPone...

I mean, she'd sung the song before. She'd sung Ladies Who Lunch, but it was the first time she really got a chance to play the whole character. And it was just like, damn, you know. So and the crazy thing was I ended up doing that show right as Charlie Sheen's Violent Torpedo of Truth live tour came through New York City. Wow. So.

So, yeah. So we were, so I was at Lincoln Center and he was at Radio City Music Hall in a vastly different show. Wait, wait. Charlie, the Torpedo of Truth played Radio City? Yes. It played huge venues. I mean, and that was, okay, just to refresh everybody's memory, and people kind of can't believe this ever actually happened, but once Charlie Sheen started going crazy and doing these crazy midnight rants,

and, you know, saying horrible things about people. And he got fired from his show where he was literally the highest paid actor in show business. That's right. He got fired from that. He immediately, despite the fact that everybody thought he was actually having a breakdown, Live Nation said, would you like to do a live tour? Yeah.

As one does when people are having mental breakdowns. So...

When I heard this, I said, well, but Charlie doesn't know how to put together a live show. I don't think. I mean, I don't know. You know, Charlie, you know, he's a very gifted performer, but that I didn't see that in his toolbox. Did they think he was going to do like Mark Twain or use Hal Holbrook? What did they? Exactly. I was like, what are you what what what is he going to do as a as a as a show by himself?

that, by the way, was booking venues like Radio City Music Hall and, you know, arenas. You know, I mean, it booked very big venues. So, and interestingly, only recently have I heard from, from, uh,

comedy folks who were apparently there was a lot of feelers put out by his management to try and help him build that live show. Right. I was just talking with Mark Maron and he was one of the people that they brought up to Charlie's house to say, hey, can we come up with an idea? And they pretty much everybody who came up there came away going, he's having a mental breakdown. You really shouldn't send him out on the road. But they did anyway. And we ended up playing the same night

you know, on, you know, he was in Midtown and I was in Lincoln Center. Which prevented you from seeing his show and vice versa. Yes. Yes. Although I don't know he's much of a Sondheim guy. He might be. You never know. He's, you know, he's a mysterious one. Yes, he is. He's an enigma. He's an enigma. But, you know, he may be down with some Sondheim.

He might be. I don't want to. Yeah, I don't want to judge. I don't want to. So much to cover. First of all, I need to figure out why growing up in Ohio and wanting to be an actor and being in the sort of young kid acting Kenley players was a thing like was a sort of bus and truck summer stock thing that I heard your mother's name all the time.

Why? Is this possible? Did your mom and my mom go to school together? Where did your mom go? I'm telling you, your mom and my mom have a connection. Okay. Interesting. And I'm trying to figure this out. Okay. In Ohio. Well, it's a couple of things. My mom grew up in Indiana. Okay. There it is. Where'd she go to school? DePaul? She went to DePaul. That's what it is. My mom went to DePaul. Oh, my God. I think they might be sorority sisters.

Oh, my God. That's amazing. That is amazing. DePauw is a little charming little school in a tiny little town in Terre Haute in Indiana. That's right. And yeah, my mom went there. I mean, it was another era. Vernon Jordan went there, right? I don't know if your mom ever talked about him. But it was...

But yeah, my dad went to that school as well. Oh, wow. But that's nuts. I mean, they got married right out of there. Same. My mom and my dad got married right out of it. You'll have to, yeah, it'd be great to go back in the yearbook and see if Barbara Hepler. Oh, my God. Because I think what it was, was like, as I wanted to be an actor, the only actor that she'd ever known personally was your mother.

Huh. And so she'd be like, yeah, Gretchen, Gretchen, she's, she's, she made, she made it. She went to New York and she's doing her thing. And I remember, I remember that name. I remember it. That's crazy. Well, my mom moved to New York City with my dad, but they were divorced when I was four.

And same. She somehow managed to make a living in New York City as a playwright and an actress as a single mom. In retrospect, I don't know how she did that to that. That's a TV show. Yeah. Her life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she refuses to believe that her life is in any way extraordinary. And I've tried to impress upon her. It's like, you know, you've lived through the, you know, World War II and the 50s and the birth of feminism. And you like, right, she wrote a musical called I'm Getting My Act Together and Taking on the Road. That's what it is. That's what it is. There we go. That's it. Yeah, it was considered a sort of breakthrough feminist musical back in 1978 when it premiered.

And, you know, she only sees, you know, she's like, I'm from Indiana. Who cares what I think? And I've been trying to get her to write a book about her life because I think her life is so fascinating. I mean, like, that's the real version of the whatever, the talented Mrs. Maisel. Like, yeah.

Where the Marvelous Music, like, I want to see that iteration of your mom's life. Yes, I agree. I agree. And it was, you know, it was, I loved it. I loved growing up backstage. Now, okay, so you had to find the theater from where you were growing up, right? Well, ironically, there was a ton of it. There was this thing that I'm obsessed with called the Kenley Players. And it was a traveling, John Kenley,

was this theater impresario, looked like the Riddler from Batman. Even in 1975, Dayton, Ohio, as an eight-year-old, I was aware that he was a hermaphrodite. Oh my gosh. That is, wow. How does that get talked about? No, no, he's a genius. You gotta go. No, how's Ryan Murphy not done the John Kenley

So believe me, I'm one of the, Chad Lowe had, was going to do a documentary and, and Mr. Kenley passed away, but he was going to interview, Chad was going to interview him for this documentary. He could never really get Mr. Kenley to talk. But so he would bring in like whoever was the hottest sort of TV star on their hiatus in the summers, pay them a fortune.

And you would do like a bus and truck version of Oliver if you're like Vincent Price. I saw Sandy Duncan in Peter Pan. I saw Shirley Jones hot off the Partridge family in On a Clear Day You Can See Forever. I saw Dom DeLuise in Under the Yum Yum Tree. I saw Henry Winkler when he was Fonzie. And you would play like Dayton, Cincinnati, Columbus.

So that was like in the summers, like you could audition for the local iteration of those casts. And man, I felt like I was on Broadway. I mean, never got, by the way, never got any of the auditions. I never. Oh, no. I never did. But there was a lot of work as a young actor. And when I moved to L.A., there's no theater.

No, no, it's, it was, it's a, it's barren. I, I, there's touring shows occasionally come through, but nothing that feels like self-generated, certainly back, not in the seventies and eighties. Yeah. You know, obviously it's a different situation now, but, um, but back then, yeah, no, you're, you're, the only thing is movies and TV in, in Los Angeles. You've got, you've got, you're either in the NFL playing football. There's no, there's no Pop Warner. Yeah. And

And that's a shame, actually, because how do you build, you know, everything has to sort of come from it has to be zero to 60. You know, it's got to be somebody who's never done anything before. Suddenly he's got something. It's like, well, no training might help. Well, do you know what I find? I'm curious. This is not a knock on anything other than it's just a fact that I've noticed that young actors have grown up.

with directors telling them where to go, what to do, and how to do it. I remember the first day a director ever told me

So I'm thinking you would come in the door and then when Billy Joe says, you know, how's your mother? Maybe you kind of sit at the table and then like, when I came up, that was unheard of. Directors did not do that. Actors figured out what the fuck they were going to do. And then the directors figured out where to put the, you know, like Coppola, like Francis Ford Coppola didn't tell you where to do or what to, we did it. And he, so, but now that's all it is.

That's all it is. So you have a whole generation of of actors who literally don't know how to walk and talk at the same time. Interesting. Now, OK, was Outsiders. Was that like your third movie? I mean, that was pretty first. That was your first. Holy smokes, man. First. Wow. Wow. So working with Coppola on your first movie. Yeah, that's insane. It was insane. That's insane. It was insane. I mean, so were you, I imagine, intimidated?

super intimidated, but also like wanting to murder. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. That kind of great mix of that you search for, it's like crack. You search for it your whole career of like working with someone who's a legend and

And you want to impress them and all you want to do is be seen by them and impress them. And then but you all but you also are like, fuck it, I'm going to run through what it was the best. It was the best. Mm hmm. And it's an amazing piece of work, you know, and like I like on my first my very first movie. And this is actually an interesting parallel, but with a very different outcome. My first one.

in a movie was on a Robert Altman movie. No way. Yeah. On a movie called OC and Stiggs. It was a teen comedy that he was trying to do. Wow. And...

He had a blast where, you know, his way of working, as you said, was but it was an extreme version of what extreme version. Yes. Yes. He would just Mike everybody. And then you'd have a general idea of the way the scene was supposed to go. And then he would just let you improv it.

which, you know, is incredibly ballsy way of making a movie. Yes. And it requires that the crew be working at this incredible level, you know, to sort of catch all the stuff that's going on. And, you know, I was incredibly intimidated. But the crazy thing was, I was like, oh, is this how it works? You know, is this they just mic everybody up and you just make up a movie as you go along? Because then you're like, wow, The Godfather is really amazing. You know, he made that up.

No, obviously I knew that that wasn't the thing, but seeing that a director could so completely have his own way of working that just was not in any way what I imagined the process was, was really fascinating for me. Yeah, it's funny because you just don't see... The first director, ironically, whoever told me exactly what to do, and he was famous for doing this, was Peter Bogdanovich.

Oh, yes, yes. And I auditioned for him. But yeah, go ahead. I love Peter. I mean, Peter.

I mean, for those of you who might not know, Peter directed, for my money, three of the greatest movies ever made back-to-back. Last Picture Show, Paper Moon, What's Up, Doc? Yes. And in the most ridiculously diverse genres. Yeah. Nothing like each other. Nothing like each other. Other than being really flippin' good, you know? Just immaculate. And then he kind of lost his mind. Yes, a little bit. And he was banished. Actually,

I actually said to him, Peter said, Peter, did you really direct the movie at long last love from horseback? And he goes, and he said, it seemed like a good idea at the time. So, yeah, he lost his mind. And then and then he made then I auditioned for him for a movie called Mask.

Yes, me too. Did you put the stocking cap over your face? Did he make you do that? No, that did not even occur to me. Well, it didn't occur to me. They made me do it. Oh, my gosh. Okay, wow. No, that was not part of my process. I had two layers of women's pantyhose over my face with little tiny eye slits.

So the logic is that by melding your face into itself the way that a stocking would, you see the eyes only.

Oh, okay. Because you're going to be in full prosthetics. Yeah. Which Eric Stoltz got the job and was great. And so they made that. I didn't get it. Eric did. And that movie was a big hit. And we thought, oh, Peter's back and he's not crazy. He was still crazy, it turns out. Ah, got it. That was an anomaly. When I did my movie, it was a total anomaly. When I did my movie, he was out of his... Wait, which one was yours? I'm sorry. Oh, good Lord. It's called...

It's called Illegally Yours. Okay. And it, I mean, I don't even know what to say about it. Other than, have you ever worked with someone who's so charming, so bright, so learned,

so charismatic that you, that you, they get you to do things and, and pitch ideas that you, you just, it's like a cult leader. I'm like, yes, Peter, that sounds like a great idea. And then you finish the project and you go, what were we thinking? And that's what it was working with Bogdanovich in that, in that thing. Similar to Altman in my, in my case and, and loved working with him, you know, would do it again in a minute. Yeah. He offered me the chance, obviously before he passed. Um, but, uh, uh,

No, it was 100% cult leader stuff. You know, we would walk off the edge of a building for him. And was he, like, Peter was surrounded by...

I don't want to say flunkies, acolytes. Well, as any true cult leader would have, I mean, you have to have your acolytes or you're not a cult leader. You have to have people on the cult. It doesn't count. You know what? I wouldn't because they were used to fulfilling his vision, you know, because it makes Nashville and MASH and Gosford Park and

The player, another guy who mastered, you know, incredible diversity of projects, you know. So they were used to going, you know what? It's what he wants. Let's do it, you know. And, you know, again, you have either you have MASH or you have OCN Stigs, which is never released. It was never released. Who else was in it with you? I feel like somebody I know was in it.

Neil Barry was in it and a guy named Dan Jenkins. You might know Dan. Dan, he ended up doing Big River on Broadway for a while and a wonderful actor. But like Crazy Cat, I mean, it was like Jane Curtin and Ray Walston and...

Dennis Hopper was in it. I mean, it was a crazy Altman cast, you know, it was bonkers. And we all sort of were like along for the ride and he made it into a party every night. He'd show dailies to everybody. And everybody, same with Peter, everybody would drink and smoke and on Outsiders, Francis would cater it, would have sushi flown in.

We had a wrap party every Friday night. I thought, oh, this is the way movies are made. Every Friday night is a party where the director cooks.

Yeah, you know, it was coming out of the 70s. The 70s was that time when all the directors were breaking the mold and reimagining, you know, the easy rider just unleashed this flood of, you know what? We don't have to play by these rules and actors don't have to look like they used to. And they don't. And and, you know, we can make it.

you know, incredibly gritty movies and, you know, we can make Taxi Driver now, you know. Yeah. And so, you know, I coming off that into the 80s when, you know, filmmaking changed again, you know, you and I were coming around when

And I realized that what I benefited greatly from was there was this bubble of teen movies where suddenly they needed a lot of us, you know? And so, you know, I auditioned for 16 Candles, didn't get it. You know, auditioned for some other ones, but I did get Pretty in Pink, you know? So, you know, there was a lot of opportunities floating around. ♪

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It's time to get retro with Ashley. Shop more Labor Day deals in-store and online. Subject to credit approval. Minimum monthly payments required. No minimum purchase required. See ashley.com for details. I always forget 16 Candles was first. Yes. Yeah, 16 Candles, then Breakfast Club, actually, which I believe I auditioned for as well. Also, obviously, did not get. Same, same, same. Didn't get. By the way, I don't think John Hughes got whatever I was selling.

Oh, interesting. Interesting. I just don't think, I mean, he made a lot of movies. I was definitely in the mix, in the cut, as the kids would say today. And my phone never rang. Never rang for John Hughes. And I auditioned for the Judd Nelson part in Breakfast Club. Huh. Wow. Wow.

Yeah, you know, you never know when people just don't, when they're just, as you said, they're just not buying what you're selling. And you can't, you know, thankfully, as I said, there was a lot of opportunities out there. So, yeah, I got something eventually. I'd say, yeah. And Spader's in that, obviously. Yes. And he's just awesome in that. Of the performances in that movie, that is my favorite. It's kind of stunning, isn't it? It's kind of, it's like,

I don't know what he's doing. Well, he's doing Spader. I mean, he's, right? I mean, you know, I did a movie called Bad Influence with him and it's one of my favorites. And he's so, there's just nobody like him, truly nobody like him. And the way he looked in that, and like with the hair and the like, the pursed lips and the cheekbones and it was just,

pop, you know, collars. It's just amazing. No, it was just perfect. I mean, at one point he looked at me and said, I think I got these teenage asshole parts just nailed. I was like, yes, you do, Jimmy Spader. You absolutely do. Oh my God. That's a great, by the way, that's a great, great impersonation. I can see him say that too.

But it was funny because I got along great with him. McCarthy, Andrew McCarthy and I did not get along back in the day. Me neither, by the way. Oh, interesting. Oh, no, no. Andrew and I did not get along together at all. But wait, you guys did class. Did you class? And St. Elmo's fire. And fucking St. Elmo's fire. Holy shit. Yes. And, you know, and now, you know, Andrew now...

has this new documentary coming out. Yes. Called Bratz, which I, he called me and I was happy to talk to him. And he, you know, like anybody else, he's a, I'm a different guy. He's a different guy. I love him today. Yes. Oh my God. We, we hung out, had a great time. Love him. Love him. And, and, and,

But it's interesting. It's about projection because he told me that he was already having issues with alcohol back then, you know, that it was already an issue for him. And so now when I think about it, all the... He was a very reserved guy, very quiet. Yeah. And I took that to mean that he just didn't like me, didn't want to have... Didn't feel like... Didn't feel bothered to talk to me. But in retrospect, you know, he's a guy...

already, you know, in this incredibly high pressure gig of being an actor on these shows, who's already battling alcohol, you know, and, and I go, oh, okay. He was just trying to keep it together. Yes. Right. Yes. Yes. And I just totally took it, you know, my own insecurities just made it into this other thing. And I'm, you know, I'm mad about that. Obviously, you know, it's like the opportunity, but, you know, take the opportunity now to, to, uh, you know, get to, get to know him. Yeah. I mean, and that's exactly what he and I have, uh,

And I, and you know, look, all of those guys in the, where you call it the brat pack or the P or the, even the, even the people who are non-pack, um,

Um, it's like you, you just have nothing but love for people who survived that era. It's like, look, those are, that's our college. That's our fraternity sorority. And that's what it is. And you're like, I just, it just warms my heart hugely. Always. Whenever I see anybody, uh,

from the day like that. And Anderson, I can't wait to see this documentary. I haven't seen it yet. Me neither. I'm looking forward. Did you speak in it?

Yes, yes. We had a, you know, that's what brought, you know. Did you say, Andrew, you're such a dick? Well, no, we did. We did confront the fact that we did not get along back in the day. You know, I don't know if that's going to be in the movie because I don't know if anybody actually gives a shit about that. Yes, of course they do. I hope it's in. That's great. Yes, I hope so, too. But but, you know.

But we were all going through our own shit at that time. And, you know, we would get I mean, again, the stuff that was thrown at us at that time, you know, it was the less than zero age, you know, of just the expectation was, you know, just this incredible decadence.

And although, interestingly, I was always kind of a nerd. So it never... So originally, because I wrote a memoir a few years ago, and at one point we were going to call it No Coke for Ducky because... Amazing. Because no one ever offered me drugs. What? Because I think they just thought I was a musical theater nerd, which I am, and I don't do drugs. But I think people just sensed it. They were like, that guy's a dork. We're not going to offer him drugs. Right.

And that actually obviously worked out great for me. But at the time, it took down so many people, you know? Yeah. Oh, my God. I don't know how you survived it because for me,

You know, I always say that, you know, people are only as good as their heroes, right? And or, you know, if somebody is having a hard time, you can go and look at who their heroes are and you can draw that line. And, you know, good, bad or indifferent, my heroes were like, you know, Keith Richards and Jack Nicholson. And so it's like just people fucking doing lots of tootski in the bathroom at the Laker game living on Mulholland.

And Warren, you know, and with a revolving door of girls. So I was like, I'm going to do that. That sounds good to me. Because that's what it means to really be a movie star in L.A. is I'm going to be like Warren Beatty. I'm going to be like Jack Newsom. And, you know, they have a lot of great qualities. But I, of course, picked probably their not good ones and wrote it as far as I could. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, you know, but and that's another thing that the longevity of being, as you said, being a survivor after, you know, from way back in the day, you know, we there's something that

some sort of survival instinct or some base set of skills that we still have that we can occasionally bring to bear to make stuff that people enjoy. But also, you're still doing... And I just want to compliment you. I love that you're doing the more traditional stuff. You're doing the Fox show, the 911, which is...

I have nothing but awe for procedurals, for our procedurals, because I know how hard they are. They are. And you're awesome. But also, like the Liberace movie, I was like, holy shit. You know, where, you know, that you can still surprise people in that way is just fucking awesome. You know.

And I just, you know, that's what I attribute your longevity to. You know, it's not just the handsome because plenty of handsome people don't work forever in this business. But it's like you come up with a new way to do something. And I think that's fucking amazing. Oh, thanks, man. I mean, and look, we're only as good as our opportunities. And that was just a great, you know, Soderbergh phone call out of the blue. And it's I will tell you,

You have a huge body of work. I've got a big body of work. But there are certain parts, like that part, I have four scenes. Four. Yeah. I've never, ever, ever gotten more lift from anything than that.

Yeah, you know, you never know. You never know what's going to be the thing that resonates with people. You never, you never, ever know. Oh, so you auditioned for St. Elmo's Fire. I did, in fact. And that got very, oh, that was full of drama. Oh, let's hear it.

Because the director, Joel Schumacher, was, at least in the auditions, was lovely beyond belief. I don't know what he was like to work with. Amazing. Yeah, it's so lovely and just giving and really just you felt like, wow, he wants you to be

to give the best possible audition you can do. And that's really incredibly valuable. Everybody feels like, you know, you go into an audition and it's going to be Simon Cowell judging you partially. And that happens sometimes, but it's actually, thankfully, fairly rare. Usually everybody wants you to succeed. And Joel Schumacher was that in spades. I mean, he was just so helpful, but he put me in a little bit of a bind. And it was also Lauren Schuller was producing that. Oh, yes. Yes.

Who had done Pretty in Pink, who had just finished or actually not long prior to that had finished Pretty in Pink. And I came in and I read the part that eventually went to Andrew McCarthy and I

They said, well, just so you know, we loved me more who I had done my one of my first my second technically movie with. And they said, you know, where's she at? Because we'd love to hire her for this troubled character. And I said, well, I don't.

100% fell in love with her while we were shooting. But she also 100% is that troubled character, you know? And, you know, I don't want to, you know, she had, she had, she has since then, you know, come forward to say she was,

having a serious cocaine issue at the time and all that stuff and going through a lot of stuff that a lot of us were going through at the time. But I felt like I didn't want her to not get the part because of me, because I actually thought she'd be fantastic. But I also wanted to be honest with them as filmmakers and,

She's got an issue, you know, and you're going to have to deal with that in some way. And I heard later that they did. I mean, you went through the whole thing. You know, I don't know what that was like for you. I remember I met Joel the same day that Demi came in. And I'll never forget being on the Warner Brothers lot that you know well and headed to the office, looking for the office to find Joel's office and seeing this vision walk through.

out into the between the sound stages the sun was backlighting her hair she had at that time she had uh like almost strawberry reddish blonde hair and and her long hair but pulled up over and surrounding a straw hat i've never seen that before since i don't know what that was

And I was like, who is that person? And halfway through my meeting with Joel, he goes, I'm going to bring this other actress that I'm seeing to me. And it was her. And we, from that moment, were kind of inseparable for like the next two weeks. Oh, gosh. Okay. And there was a lot of fun going on.

Yeah, so you know, she's one of the most fun people, certainly back in the day. Yeah, yeah. And they did, and they, and Demetri talks about, they were like, you got to get it together. And she did. And she was the first, and I give her,

She was a total inspiration for me because she got sober and I'd never seen anyone get sober. I didn't know anything about it, how you could do it, never occurred to me. Whatever I thought about it, watching Demi do it was the inspiration when I finally decided that I was done. I was like, if Demi can do it, maybe I can do it. Wow. But it started right there with St. Elmo's Fire, with them going, hey, you got to get it together. And she did. Wow. Yeah.

That's, yeah. Because I had a similar thing, not quite the same, but when she and I were cast in No Small Affair, we...

we were together like magnets. And I had two of the most fun weeks of my life just going around Los Angeles with her and, you know, and being a part of her life. And the hair thing, yeah, she would tuck her hair up into the band of a hat. Yes. And I remember I was doing Torch Song Trilogy at the time with Harvey Fierstein. And he met her and he said, who's the girl with the hairy hat? And

But, you know, she was like one of those unforgettable people, you know, and you can see why she gets cast and stuff is because, you know, when she walks through the room, you don't forget it. No, they don't. They don't make them like that anymore. She's truly the voice, the looks, the talent, all of it. She's the whole.

She's the real thing for sure. Yeah. And it was interesting because on No Small Affair, she was really it was her first kind of lead in a feature. And she was really, really nervous about it, you know, and I and she had been doing General Hospital for years. So I just assumed she she felt like an old pro, you know, but no, she had managed to be terrified. And I was terrified, too. So I was like, shit, we're both terrified. This is not good. Right.

But but yeah, but but now how was St. Elmo's as a shoot? Because it's like, you know, many people consider like the Brat Pack movie, you know, it is it kind of by the way, the best Brat Pack movie is The Breakfast Club. For sure. Yes. I won't argue with you. That is like head and shoulders. It's like the goodfellas.

Yes. Arguably, yeah. Of the genre. But boy, people do love this. They love them some St. Elmo's. It was great because I had the part of a lifetime. I had... They wanted me to play the Judd Nelson square preppy part. I wanted to play... I wanted... And that was what they...

Everybody wanted me to do that. Joel, the studio, everybody. I wanted to play the part they ended up getting. And they were like, no, we don't really see you in that. So I showed up drunk to my meeting with Joel, the day that I met Demi. I showed up with a six-pack.

And drank through the entire meet. I was like, oh, you don't think I'm a fucking wild man? Really? Here, try this on for size. And I ended up getting the part and the rest. And so I felt like, I don't know. You know what it's like when you're in an ensemble and you just, you feel like you have the fucking best part and you can kind of just run amok.

Yeah. So for me, it was it was heaven. I mean, it was. Yeah. You feel like, you know, it's like those times when you go, I know that guy. Yes. I so know that guy just turned me loose. Yes. That's an incredibly lucky feeling.

And yeah, I, but that's, I did not know that you were originally supposed to do the Judd Nelson part. That's fascinating to me. Yeah, I mean, which is a great, which is a perfectly good part, but I felt like, you know, I'd been playing preppy. I played a couple of preppy, you know, the spade, you don't want to go, you know, spaders got that lane covered. We can't, we can't compete with spaders. Exactly. You set the standard. Yeah.

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. Were you like I've had some auditions for stuff that it was like, OK, I know I am the wrong guy for this. Yeah, but I got to take a swing. Like I auditioned for a platoon to play the Kevin Dillon part. Oh, I can see that. See that. Yeah.

And I get to meet Oliver Stone. That's kind of fun. You know, he's a filmmaker operating at the height of his powers at that point. And this is a script that everybody reads and goes, holy shit, this is one of the most harrowing things I've ever laid eyes on. You know, and everybody gets excited. And but that audition, I'm supposed to go in.

Uh, and, um, it's the scene when, when bunny, uh, terrorizes a one-legged Vietnamese guy by shooting at him with a machine gun. Um, and I'm like, okay, I'm in an audition situation, uh,

I don't have a machine gun or a one-legged Vietnamese guy. How is this going to go? You know, so, you know, I don't know what you do. I mean, you bring it. You brought a six pack into your St. Elmo's fire. But yes, but you can't bring a machine gun in. No, exactly. I don't even I don't even want to bring a pretend gun in because that just feels weird to me. Although should I have? Well, but I mean, obviously, I never would have gotten the you. You raise a very one of the great conundrums.

of auditioning, which is, it's a driving scene. Do you fake the wheel? Do you do the hand motion? Which is really lame, but then if you're just sitting there, that just feels like you're in a kitchen. That's not right either. No, it's not. You have to make weird choices. Yes. As stupid as it sounds, I think

Two things. I use the fake driving steering wheel. And then, um, Alison Janney, uh, said this to me and I think she's absolutely right. Know it cold, uh,

but hold the sides in your hand. Yes. Yes. I have heard that. I have heard that actually the biggest, the biggest thing that helped me in auditions ever was holding auditions. I produced a tiny, no budget movie and I had to read with everybody cause we didn't, you know, we just, the cheapest way to do it was to bring everybody in and I'll read with them, you know? Um, and, uh,

And I saw wonderful actors who I had adored just crash and burn. And I saw people I never heard of do great. And I saw people that I thought were 100 percent. I wrote this for you and I would come in and it would not be right. You know, and it made me realize that an audition can go. You can't you can't be nervous about it.

Because either you're the right guy for it or you're not. You know, you're either it's your day and this is the right part for you. Yep. Or you can't force it. So just go in and take your best swing at it. Try to make a good impression. Say hello to the receptionist on the way out. You know, and that's all you can do. I always look at it as this is my one time I get I know that I get to play this part.

Okay. Yeah. That's an opportunity. It's my part. I'm playing it today. Don't know if I'll be playing it tomorrow, but today I'm playing it. And you're watching it. And you have to watch it. Okay. I need to know about extended family because I want to know what being an executive producer is a whole other thing. I want to know your experience and what you like, don't like, learned, whatever. Give me your experience

as to being an exec. Because people always say, what's the difference between a producer and an executive producer? So does that mean you put up the money? I'm like, ah, no. No, no. Although sometimes it does. Yeah, it's an incredibly elastic concept.

institution being a producer. You know, it can be anywhere from I just made a phone call, you know, and I got somebody involved in this who they needed involved in this to I put up millions of dollars. Right, right. And a multicam sitcom, you know, you've performed on them and obviously they're they're

And they are their own kind of beast, you know, because they're very old school, but you got to make them feel fresh, you know. And they can be the most fun you've ever had with a camera rolling. Right. Unless you do porn, you know. So, yeah.

So doing Two and a Half Men was this incredibly joyful experience, even though it got very dramatic after a while, you know, and it went crazy and off the rails. And then, you know, we had to remake the show on the fly. And actually, what was amazing was the producer, Jim Patterson, started letting me come into the writer's room once we once we were trying to remake the show.

with Ashton Kutcher. And I got to see that process, the writer's room process in a completely different way. And that was just amazing to watch because the level that these men and women write at and pitch at, and, you know, it was just, you know, the amount of technical expertise

that went into it was, was kind of jaw dropping. And, you know, even a show like two and a half men, which, you know, a lot of people was like, Oh, that's comfort food. It's, you know, it's, uh, you know, it's, it's Charlie Sheen, whatever. Um,

I was so impressed with the artistry that the writers brought to it. So when Extended Family came up, basically the way that came together was it's inspired by the true situation that the owner of the Boston Celtics, he and his wife share an apartment with her ex-husband, right?

They call it the nest. And because once she got divorced, they didn't want the kids to have to go back and forth between two apartments. They wanted the kids to just stay there and the adults would go back and forth to the different apartments. And

Michael Malley, who's a wonderful actor and writer, he, you know, they pitched him this idea and he thought, well, this is a fun opportunity to make kind of a screwball comedy about people who have to make a divorce work. Right. And so when I first read it, I thought, oh, this is this is great patter. It's great. You know, it's it's it's going to, you know, roll like a freight train. This is really fun part. And and so I, you

I don't know if everybody's going to empathize with the owner of the Boston Celtics as one of your main characters, but hey, let's give it a shot. And so Mike brought me on as a fellow executive producer. And it's fascinating because once you're in the room, everybody looks at me like you were on Two and a Half Men for 12 years. You made that work. Yep.

how do we make this work? Yes, yes, exactly. And, uh, and, and it actually, you know, doing that, that time in the trenches and reinventing a show on the fly because your main actor goes insane, uh, is valuable experience. Um, and, and you really do come out of it with a lot of, um, uh, a lot of, uh, thoughts on how this, this can work. And, uh,

And but again, you know, what making this show from scratch is obviously a completely different experience. Do you have any Chuck? Like there's a Chuck Lorre ism that's been repeated in writers rooms that I've heard. And I can't remember right now. Usually I'm really good at remembering that stuff. And it's amazing. Do you have any that you Chuck Lorre obviously don't know, created two and a half men and Mike and Molly and he created the CBS network.

Yes. And yeah, Big Bang Theory. But he also did Dharma and Greg. And, you know, he I mean, he had this ridiculous now he's doing bookie for for HBO. And, you know, he did the Kaminsky method. And, you know, he's a writer, a producer who is, you know, kind of a legend in the business at this point.

incredibly prolific and talented, but feared also in the business. You know, he, amongst writers, he's, you know, a lot of writers are kind of scared of him and have some level of fear. And I realized what, you know, and in terms of the Chuck Lorre-isms, I can't think of one either at this moment that hits me as particularly pithy. But he, you know,

But I did realize why people got scared of him to some degree and how it has actually served him because he gets frustrated when he has something in his head that works and he can't get it on the paper. And he's like, there's a reason this, you know, or if something's written and he sees it in his head as working and it's not working. And he gets frustrated.

Uh, and I can see it. And so he and I never had friction about that kind of stuff because the second I got, okay, he's frustrated because this isn't working. The second that, uh, uh, I got that that's where he was. I didn't, uh, uh, you know, for some other writers and some other performers, it was very hard because you could, you could see his face darken and he was, you know, and he was, he would get a little agitated and, uh, and, uh, you know, that,

for some people is, is discomforting, but I totally got where he was. Yeah. So he and I worked great together. I mean, I just totally got what he, the nugget of what he was, uh, uh, upset about. And, uh, and it's one of the reasons we worked together for so long. Um,

But the great thing about that is that if you have this reputation of scaring people, the network doesn't come at you. That's right. Huge. And that's how it served him. You know, he could just say, no, we're just, we're not going to do it that way. You know, and it really worked for him. There were very, you know, that also keeps

the number of rewrites down, which makes it much easier for the cast and the crew and the directors. His writers are usually out by 6 p.m. On our new show, they're having to sweat it until 11 p.m. most nights because we get a lot of notes from the network and we got to fix what they don't like. You realize you're never rewarded enough

for, if it's a jump ball creatively for you and you give it to the network, there's never a thank you. There's never a reward. Never. They never go, they never go, you know, it's kind of a jump ball on cancellation, but man, you guys really played ball with us. So we're going to never, ever, ever, ever. So by the way, so when it's a jump ball, take the ball. Yes. Every time, every time, take it. Yeah.

Yep. And, you know, that's the you're 100 percent right. And that is what you learn after you do the business for 40 years. Yes. Like we have, you know, I mean, that we got offered an extended family, this new show on on NBC, you know, which is actually still ordering, you know, 20, 22 episodes a season. I mean, you know, wow, that you go, oh, my God, that that is amazing.

an incredibly fortunate possibility. I am going to leap on this and I'm going to make this show the very best thing. If I have to sweat it every night, if we have to reshoot a million things, if we have to, you know, if I have to beg somebody to be cast on the show like Rob Lowe, you know, if I, you know, I will make that. I will, you know, because you don't get these opportunities. And when you do, you have to jump on them.

22 episodes, man. They don't do that anymore. They don't. They don't. And we'll see. I mean, we did 13 this first season because of the strike. So we'll see what happens next season. But yeah, broadcast still exists. And they're the only people still doing that stuff. It's unbelievable. I'm psyched to see it. When did you premiere? It was because everything got pushed with the strike. Did you premiere in the last month?

We premiered in December 23rd of last year. So, you know, they were putting promos on the football so much that even I was like, OK, I get it. Yeah. Thank you, NBC, for promoting it to the greatest extent possible. But but yeah, we premiered on December 23rd right after a playoff football game. And it's been, you know, it it it.

And everybody was pretty thrilled with that. So we're, you know, we're behind night court now. The thing is, time slots just don't matter the way that they used to. No. Right. Because we're on Peacock the next day, you know, so you can see the show the next day. But it's been a lovely experience working with NBC. You know, all these corporations have had to completely freeze.

you know, reconfigure who they are, you know, because of the streamers. The streamers have forced everybody to just think in a different way. So, so it's been, you know, it's, you know, dealing with the new NBC has been absolutely great. I, well, listen, I love that you have a new play, play pen to play in. And, you know,

And, you know, American needs its John Cryer on. It's not it's I'm not I only know is I'm not watching television. If it's not if I don't have John Cryer on my TV, it's not TV.

Something that is not TV. It's a service I perform for America. But I also just put out a podcast. Oh. Obviously, you are the king of podcasts. But mine is a narrative one. But it's also kind of fun because it does sort of play into it because it takes place in 1986. So it is, you know, obviously back in the day for us. Yes. But.

And obviously, you were very involved in politics. Yes. So, you know, this will strike a chord with you. A guy who made the documentary Active Measures, which is a terrific documentary if you get a chance to watch it, he came to me and said, I have this crazy story, it's a true story, of a young guy who was a public defender in Miami in 1986.

And Miami in 1986 was Scarface, basically. And so he's a public defender. His first job, his first felony as a public defender that he has to fight for is this guy who's been arrested with a machine gun and a silencer.

Okay. Sure. Um, you know, it's Miami. Uh, and he, so he asked the guy, dude, why, why do you have a machine gun and a silencer? And the guy says, well, I've been running guns for the CIA. Uh,

And this guy says, sure, sure, you're running guns for the CIA. And the guy says, you don't believe me? Here's the phone number. Call this phone number. And he calls the phone number. He's like, whatever, I'm on hold. And it turns out it is the phone number of the National Security Council. And in fact...

This guy has been running guns for the CIA. In fact, he's been helping to supply a whole secret war that the Reagan administration is fighting called Iran-Contra. I don't know if you remember that. I remember that little incident. That little situation. Yes. So...

The story is the true story of John Mattis. And I'm the narrator of this podcast. It's called Lawyers, Guns and Money. Yeah. And it's about how this young guy just got pulled into this huge scandal that was ended up being one of the biggest scandals of presidential history in the United States. Oh, that sounds amazing. Yeah. And it's an absolutely crazy story. Yeah.

you know, it's, it's, but it's like, it's, it's like Scarface meets the in-laws because it's also surreal and very funny. Yeah. Um, and the crazy thing was in, in researching this story, um, Jack Ryan, who, uh,

who came to me with the story, has discovered all these... First of all, a lot of the whole Iran-Contra story, a lot of it has come to light over the last few years that sort of changes what everybody perceived then. Because it turns out that the Reagan administration had been funding the Iranians for...

for years, right when they first started. And I don't know if you recall, but there was a whole conspiracy theory about that Reagan had actually paid Iran to keep the American hostages there until he was inaugurated president. Yes, I've heard that. So that Jimmy Carter didn't benefit from them. And that has been something that people kind of scoffed at for, you know, because it sounds ridiculous. But

There's this large and larger, this increasingly growing body of evidence that, yes, that may well have happened. So it ends up being this huge, huge story, this kind of epic story. It's called Lawyers, Guns and Money. You can get it on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to it. But it was truly... But, you know...

remembering the 80s. Oh. And remembering how bananas the 80s were. Dude, I dated Fawn Hall. That's how bananas the 80s were. That's how bananas it was. I mean, I know all about Iran-Contra. Oh, my God. So, wow. Okay. Okay. I know you were trying to wrap up, but how do you end up dating Fawn Hall?

I watched her testify at the Iran-Contra hearings. Riveting. Riveting. Riveting. And she was beautiful. Yes. She was the assistant to Oliver North. She was Oliver North's secretary. Yes. And I think, I'm pretty sure, was also dating...

I want to say Daniel Ortega. Is that possible? But the president of El Salvador? Or his son or something. Okay, so somehow connected. Oh, yeah.

to the president of the socialist president of El Salvador. Something with the, you know, it's all, by the way, it's entirely possible that I'm conflating Nicaragua and El Salvador. And El Salvador is possible. But again, those were all kind of considered of a piece at the time. The whole secret war was playing out over all of those countries. Yes, yes. You know, dude, okay, so she's beautiful. She testifies. She testifies and-

how did I get in touch with her? I think someone said that they ran into her and, and I said, did you get her phone number? Did you? And they go, yeah. And so I, I got her phone number and I'll never forget. I had two numbers for her. I could call her at her mother's house or the Pentagon. And I thought that was the hottest thing ever.

I could call a girl. You can call it her mother's house or the Pentagon. And I was like, yeah, this is going to, and then, and then being the total little dick that I was in those days, I like our coming out party was the AFI lifetime achievement award for Jack lemon.

And I walked into that ballroom with Fawn Hall like a week after the Iran-Contra hearings. And I am telling you now, man, it was crazy.

Fucking bananas. Yes, that's bedlam. That is bedlam. Bedlam. Now, yes, for the listeners, Fawn Hall was accused of destroying a bunch of documents that also hid because Oliver North was kind of the architect of this secret war or certainly the guy who facilitated most of it. And, you know, so it was you cannot imagine a bigger scandal. No, you couldn't like.

you know, when you, when you get, when the biggest stars in the world are a Gog slash star struck, that's very hard to pull off. Yes. And you did it. And well, listen, it was my date, but she did it. But, uh, and, and there's a, there's this beautiful photo online of us like walking in with, it's like,

She was something else. I was, yeah. So yeah, I'm definitely going to be checking out Lawyers, Guns and Money. Also the title of one of my favorite Warren Zevon songs. Yes, obviously it's an homage. But when you listen to it, you go, oh, okay, that's why they called it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I hope you enjoy it. And dude, thank you. This has been so much fun. Yeah. And I've been looking forward to having you on. I knew it was coming up and I was like, this is going to be great. And it was, you did not disappoint. This was a fun one. Absolutely. Absolutely.

What a great guy. You know, it's fun when you really get to spend time with somebody and they don't disappoint. John Cryer is who I want John Cryer to be. That's really the bottom line. All right, just one more thing before we end today's episode. Let's check the lowdown line. Hello, you've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-

570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep. Hi, my name is Ashley Collins. I'm from Indianapolis, Indiana. And I was wondering if you were to listen to one album out of any album artists, the rest of your album, what would you choose? Thank you. Wow. Oh boy. Oh boy. That's a great question. Thank you for that. And Indianapolis. Thank you. Thank you.

Man. Well, here's, I think you want to, rest of your life. So here would be the criteria I'm thinking about as I'm trying to make this call. I think it has to be by a songwriter. The lyrics have to be great. You want to be moved by the lyrics. You want, I mean, it has to be something you're never getting tired of hearing. Oh, this is so hard.

Is it Hotel California by the Eagles? Is it Darkness on the Edge of Town by Bruce Springsteen? Is it Running on Empty by Jackson Brown? Is it Pink Floyd's The Wall? Boy, that's so hard. Is it, and greatest hits don't count, obviously, because that makes it a lot easier. Is it Steely Dan's Asia? I mean, I just, that's the list. So then you got to figure out

what's going off that list. I'm going to go with Darkness on the Edge of Town, Bruce Springsteen. That's my call. He's my guy. Everybody knows he's my guy. There's emotion in it. There's inspiration in it. There's pump-you-up music. There's some ballads. By the way, Fleetwood Mac, Rumors, would be on there. But I'm going with Bruce. Thank you. Great question. I could debate this for 10 years. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. Don't forget to give us a nice little review on Apple and download the rest of the episodes we have, the rest of our season, and tell a friend. And in the meantime, I'll see you next week on Literally.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Grau. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant.

Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply.