George Stephanopoulos: S—tboxed
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That's right. Discover automatically doubles the cash back earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cash Back Match. Now that's a real crowd pleaser. Everyone knows how it ends. Double the cash back. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Because I collect them. Because my father used to say to me, you never know how far a frog can go until you kick it. Hey, everybody.

It's me, and this is Literally. Well, you know, Literally is designed to be a fresh, happy, easy, breezy, have a good time, everybody come together, free zone. And I usually stay out of politics for just that reason. There's enough of that elsewhere if you want it. But the fact of the matter is, I have a history in all of that, and I'm

I'm still interested in it, and I know a lot of great people in it. And one of the greatest is my guest today, George Stephanopoulos. George has obviously gone from political savant of the Clinton campaign to have 17 different careers as a journalist and host face of ABC News and Good Morning America and books and whatever. He's a fascinating guy.

And I am super psyched to have him on. George Stephanopoulos, here we go. Are you taking over CNN? Absolutely not. Wait, who takes a journalist into their training session? Who does that? Arnold? Yes, yes, right.

I mean, it's such a strange thing, you know, because Chris, like, I don't know him that well. I've met him a couple of times. He's a hell of a talented television producer. And a really...

in spite of what we're discussing, really smart guy. Really smart. And, you know, what he did with Morning Joe, what he did with Colbert was unbelievable. And then, you know, the degree of difficulty for that job, that it was always going to be high, that the CNN job, boy, just, it was a tough run. Do you think it though, it's like, I wonder if it's one of those things, I'm going to sound like some MAGA nutcase, and clearly I'm obviously not, but I'm just going to do like a devil's advocate thing. Is it

The notion of transforming what had clearly become a left-leaning, or even if it isn't, the perception is. I don't think it was left-leaning. I mean, I can't defend what every journalist on CNN did over the last five years. And I think some did make it a little more personal than it should have gotten. But I kind of resist this idea that calling out

lies is a left-wing enterprise. I don't think that's what that was. Oh, me neither. I mean, that was standing up for democracy and truth. Now, it did get perceived in that way, and that's why it was such a tricky thing to try to recalibrate for CNN. Yeah, and by the way, to be clear, I agree with you on that. My sense of it was it was more an editorial thing about what stories demand more time versus...

other stories and perhaps lack of context and follow-up questions and things like that. But for sure, you can't allow people to go up there. Was it Caitlin Collins? I think she tried to do as good as you could. We had a lot of talk about that. I think...

Is Trump a candidate because he's a candidate? Do you have to cover him? Absolutely. Do you have to do it live? Absolutely. No. And listen, man, you remember what it was like the first time you ran. They would they would have a live square of an empty podium for an hour. Right. For an hour before he showed up. Yep. Yep. Crazy.

Listen, the media can complain all they want, but that's a monster of their own making. In that sense, yes. 100%. I think we've learned some of the lessons as this thing comes around again. I mean, 2015, 2016 was a real learning experience for the whole country, but it was for all of us because...

When it all started out, I had interviewed Trump going back to 1999. During the course of the 15-16 campaign, I probably interviewed him 42, 43 times. Wow. Starting out, you believe, what are journalists supposed to do? They're supposed to point out falsehoods. They're supposed to point out hypocrisy, flip-flops, changes in positions, hold people to account for that. We did all that. I look back at all my interviews and

Had they been done with any other candidate, any other normal candidate in any other normal time, I can point to half a dozen things that would have knocked a normal candidate out of the race. It's unbelievable. It's just unbelievable. He broke the model in that sense. And we had to learn a different way of doing our jobs because of that. Do you think that that is that? I mean, listen, Ed Muskie had the audacity to have a tear in his eye.

Right. Was it a tear or was it a snowflake? Was it a snowflake? That's one of the great, one of the great deep dives. But that was, and that was the end. He might've had a tear in his eye. That was the end. Right. Trump said, grab him by the, you know what? And I thought, well, that's it. It's done. Nope. Gary Hart, you know, said, follow me. And they had a picture of him walking under a boat. Bam. Bam. That is the end. Even John Kerry, the swift boat stuff. He was a war hero.

The Swift stuff didn't knock him out of the race, but it certainly hurt him. Look what happened with Donald Trump starting out. He calls John McCain absolute prisoner of war, war hero, loser. I mean, one of the interviews I had was the day after the Democratic Convention in 2016. And I'll never forget it. I flew to Colorado Springs to interview him. I had this interview. And in the middle...

It was one of the first interviews where I dove in on Russia, asked him about three or four different times his relationship with Putin. That was fine. But in the midst of this interview, I don't know if you remember, but he attacked this gold star mom. Yes, I remember. Democratic convention, the mother of this Muslim American soldier who died.

in Iraq. And, you know, my team and I, as we were watching her attack this woman, we think, my God, when this comes out tomorrow, he's going to be out of the race. I mean, you just can't do that. And it turns out that

Trump was enraged at me. The interview stopped. He pulled my producer aside, brought him out into the hall. He yelled at him for five minutes, brought me into the hall, yelled at me for five minutes. He was yelling at us about the Putin questions. And I didn't care. I was going to ask the questions and I knew I was right to ask the questions and everything.

But I'm thinking, boy, you're missing what really happened here. The lead was, you know, how much it turned out in retrospect, the lead actually was the Russia questions. But in the day, in the immediate aftermath, it seemed like, well, you're upset about that. But what you said about this mother, the mother is going to not get out of the race tomorrow. Nobody cared. Do you think that that continues for any other candidate or is that just effect of him? In other words, can any of these guys screw up or do those things and get away with it?

You've seen some instances where people have toughed it out in the face of issues like this in a way that they might not have in the past. I'm thinking of the governor of Virginia a couple of years ago, and I'm blanking on his name right now, but he got caught in the black face, and he decided just to tough it out. Yeah, that's right. And it looked like he didn't have to get out of the race, and that ended up working for him. But I think for the most part, this is kind of unique to him, and we're about to see another big test of it, I think. Yeah, it's what...

Today, it's funny. You and I have lots of friends in these circles, and I've been hearing a lot about, I'm like, really? About the mayor of Miami. And I wake up today to read the headlines, and the mayor of Miami looks like he's going to, whose name I'm not familiar with yet, but it looks like he's going to jump in. People are liking him. And it's just so funny that nobody knows anything. This election is so far away from

It's funny you say it. I met with our, you know, each election cycle, we have these embed reporters who, you know, go live basically with the candidates in the campaigns. And I was meeting with them yesterday and they were asking me all these questions about the campaign. And I said,

This is, and who was the one who originally said it about Hollywood? No one knows anything. Yeah. William Goldman. William Goldman. Right. And that is, that goes 10 times over for this election. If you did, if you came up to me and said to me a year from now, neither Joe Biden nor Donald Trump is going to be in the race, I'd say, okay, that's plausible. Yep. If you said they're both going to be in the race, I think it's less likely, but I think it's, it's, it's possible. Uh,

I personally believe that this indictment on the classified documents case, that it is going to hurt Trump more than other people tend to think. Right now, a lot of people just have this view that nothing has moved his voters before. We'll see what this case looks like, but I think that could have the potential of at least shaking up

how other elected Republicans look at him, shaking up some of that support. And also we'll give more permission to other candidates like Chris Christie to take Trump on directly. We'll see if that happens. That's going to be fun. I cannot wait for the Chris Christie-Trump brawl. I truly, I mean, that's going to be great television, don't you think? In order to be in a Republican debate, you have to pledge to support the nominee.

Now, Chris Christie has already said he was never going to support Donald Trump if Donald Trump is the nominee. The way that Christie handled it this morning was say, well, I'm going to do what Donald Trump did last time. I'm going to take the pledge, but not really mean it, basically. That's what he was saying. He was saying, you know, to go to your point from a minute ago, will it work for someone else if they do exactly what Trump did the last time? Why does RFK Jr.'s candidacy already feel like a third party candidacy to me? Well, because he's...

He doesn't have any mainstream delusions. I mean, he's in the Trump mold, a different kind of candidate, conspiracy theories over vaccinations and things like that. I don't know that he's, you know, will he stay in all the way? Will he stay in after the primaries? Hard to know. Possibly because he doesn't seem to be beholden.

anyone. But, you know, it's tricky for all of us. I think that, again, when you're dealing with candidates like that, espousing views like that, we have to be very careful about what we do this time around in covering them. On the one hand, we can't be censors. On the other hand, we can't amplify falsets. And then we have to be very careful about that. What if he dings Biden out of the gate? By getting what? By getting 30% of the vote in New Hampshire? That's exactly right. That would be...

By the way, I take that bet. I go to Vegas now, I take that bet. I think that's a good bet. You're over 100, you get about 30. Wow. I don't think it would be that high, but I would say that it's conceivable that even getting between 10 and 20% would be considered a dig. That's really what I'm saying. It's like whether it's, look, let's say anything above 10, people are like, whoa, look at this. Yeah. Well, it's a very, you know, this environment is so hard to read, you know, in...

when I was growing up in politics, when I was starting in presidential campaigns, if you had a president with an approval rating or a candidate with an approval rating at 40, 41%,

That's just considered, especially for an incumbent looking for re-election, that's considered the line where it's just impossible to win again. But in this environment where everybody is so polarized, you've got so much locked in opposition as it is against Donald Trump, who has that much, probably has 65% of the public says they're never going to vote for him. Maybe it's not the kiss of death. It's unbelievable. I always think about it.

One of the greatest pieces of, I don't, I don't, when I say entertainment, I don't want it to sound like that's in any way a slight or insulting or a dig because it's not. But the war room is one of my favorite things that's ever been made. How do you feel about the war room? It's like another lifetime, right? I know. Well, you're a different person. It's literally, you've had 17 lifetimes since then.

Some of you actually. No, we both have, but I love that movie. The documentary. See, I think it's a movie. Penny Bay, he was a genius. He was an absolute genius. And you know, this is a guy who also did Don't Look Back, the great Bob Dylan. Oh, I didn't realize he did Don't Look Back. The documentary about RFA called Crisis. He basically did the war room with, I think, three or four days of filming. What? With a tiny little...

on his shoulder. I mean, they had bought a lot of footage from earlier on. Right. But it was just what he was able to do

with limited amount of footage and just the intimate feel that he got of that campaign was unbelievable we thought that we said yes to it he thought it'd be this little thing that was going to be you know on pbs some friday night and right right in 19 whatever 1994 and it turned into such a big deal because it was such a brilliant movie it's not about james and i it's about you know

Penny Becker as a showmaker. And a moment in time. But I will say that the two scenes that I will never forget are it's election night. You guys are clearly going to win. And it's, I don't know if it's Mandy Grunwald or, but it's some very young woman

a woman who is working for you and the way she's looking at you. Oh, Heather Beckham. Heather Beckham. That is, I wish a woman would look at me that way one day. That was the one where she looks at me and says, how does it feel? Yes, how does it feel? The how does it feel moment is like Aaron, that's the, I'm sure, is the kind of thing that made Aaron Sorkin go, this is a movie. This is a movie right here. Well, that was, I mean, you know, I'm so lucky that

You know, he was there to capture a peak moment in my professional life. I mean, there's nothing like after 12 years for Democrats being part of a campaign that defeated the incumbent president. It was, you know. That brings me to the other moment, which is might be, there's Henry Fonda's I'll be there speech in Grapes of Wrath.

And there's James Carville's speech. Oh, my God. That election night speech. Oh, my gosh. Love and labor. Love and labor. I'm telling you right now, if you guys listening have not seen War Room, please see it. And for all of these, but Carville's, I'm going to be 50 years old. I've never worked for a living candidate, whatever that iteration of it is. And it was him. And, you know, you talk about the moment in time.

James Carville was made to run a presidential campaign at that moment in time. What was his special sauce for that moment in time? And why isn't it the special sauce for today? Well, it's a completely different time. I mean, I think that he understood where the country was at that moment. And he had a perfect pitch for what people could accept. I mean, obviously, if you look at things

he did. First of all, this idea of focusing on the economy. The famous- The economy's stupid. Stupid. But people forget, that was actually part of a three-part haiku. Really? What's the haiku? It's the economy's stupid.

Don't forget healthcare and change versus more of the same. Everything we said every single day had to fit into one of those, if not all three of those frames. And that was his genius, distilling the entire campaign. When you had a candidate who was disciplined enough and smart enough to do it.

Well, and then, you know, it wouldn't have worked if you didn't have a candidate like Clinton who had already in his own way, a different kind of political genius mapped out what it would take to win and also just had at the time, just the unbelievable grit to be able to take so much incoming and just keep plowing, plowing ahead. He's, I was, I once found myself, might've been the first time I was ever in the Oval Office.

And there's the height of the West Wing. That's the blood he sent his first time he was ever in the Oval Office. Yeah, you should talk. You should talk. Mr. All Area Access. Well, because you know the reason I say it? Because every time I've been in the Oval Office under different administrations, the vibe in the Oval itself is...

is completely different. Oh, no, no question about it. I mean, it's un-fucking- That's the personality of the person. I'll never forget, Clinton's had a Big Bertha driver leaned up against the wall. Inside the Oval, not in his little- No, inside, I'll never forget as long as I, listen, you never forget the first time you walk into the Oval Office. Right.

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Big bertha driver leaned up against the wall, might even be in the official picture they took of me and the president. And he had a what was so dating of the whole thing. I think he had eBay up on a laptop. It's clear somebody had just given him a meeting about this. Oh, wow. So you did it. That must have been in the second term when he came out. Because when I was there.

I left after the first term. You were gone. Yes. We didn't have mobile. We didn't have portable computers. I had a computer behind my desk. Honestly, I never used it. And by the way, thank God. If you had email at this time, you know, we had we faced enough investigations as it was made up. But if you had email on top of everything else. Oh, God. Well, can you imagine if he could if he could text you all at all hours of the night?

Well, I mean, this is how, gosh, I hate to say it, this is how old I am. So I'm in the pre, we had the big, massive cell phones, you know, kind of went up. Yeah. That much. But our big accessory at the time in the first term was those little beepers you put on your belt. Well, if you watch the West Wing in season one, we all have pagers.

In fact, my storyline is I give my pager to a prostitute unknowingly in episode one of The West Wing. Yeah, that probably caused so many people to come up to me and say, did you ever go out with a prostitute? That's amazing. I know people absolutely like Kennedy. I mean, I think.

I, my job was more Josh Lyman. Yeah. Then Sam's. Yes. People, I think it's our hair. People think we have good hair, Brad Whitford, not so much good hair. And so they, they go, Oh, you must be George's doppelganger, but no, you were, you were definitely Josh Lyman. And I, and I, who would have been the, the big speech writer? Gerson was for Bush. Grisham was for Bush. Um, and Favreau was obviously for Obama.

Trying to think. Clinton had a lot of different speechwriters. Michael Waldner was one. David Kuznett was another. Although your job was kind of sweet, generous. It was more than a speechwriter. Yeah, it was. It was a little bit of... I was thinking about this today because it popped into my head when I was thinking of coming on this. I don't know if this was you or Brad, but who...

and this might have been in season two or three, who had the scene where they ended up, had to get deposed in a legal case and kind of fought back because that was directly taken from my life. I was, you know, this crazy lawsuit by Larry Klayman, judicial watcher. He tried to argue that James Carmel

Hillary Clinton and I were in a conspiracy to defame Jennifer Flowers. I hadn't even spoken to Hillary Clinton in like three years. It was after all the other stuff had come out with Monica. But I decided to go into that deposition, that lawsuit, and just not take it.

any shit and fight back on every single question. And you guys ended up taking it almost verbatim. That was, it was, it was Josh and it was Sam and, and Josh, Josh has, Josh is being deposed there. He's trying to keep his cool. He finally loses it. And I, and I jump in as the referee cause I'm the, I'm the only lawyer. I'm the only lawyer in the room.

And I, and I send Josh out of the room and I've been nothing but cool so far. And I go to the guy and say, if you come after Leo McGarry, I'm going to break you like a pinata.

And it was one of the great, it was one of the, one of my favorite moments in, in, of my characters ever. Cause he was always such like a nice puppy and he just went off. I love that you remember that, you know, you know, um, president Clinton pitched us an episode idea. Did I ever tell you this story? That's not that surprising, is it? No, no, it really isn't. But he, so it's like, it's his first time in the, in the oval. It's an, an Aaron Sorkin is with me. It's Aaron and I, just the two of us. And, um,

I think DeeDee, no, DeeDee is already on our show now. Me too. Yeah. She's long gone. Was it Joe Lockhart? Was it Mike McCurry? Oh, it was. No, no, no. The chief of staff was, uh, Podesta. Oh, okay. So yeah, second term rec. So, um, and we're, and, and Clint's like, you know what story you guys should be telling. And we're like, what Mr. President? That's pretty good. Is that, is that so bad? Right? Yeah. And he goes, um,

Because you should tell a story about all these young kids that come down here to serve their country, devote their lives to it, make nothing, do all the terrible hours, and then get to know some reporter, and that reporter just shitboxes them.

And I go, I'm somewhere else with that. I thought he was going with the legal fees. They all got, no, I, the, I'd never heard the phrase shit box. I'll never forget it as long as I live. And I, I turned Aaron Sorkin and Aaron Sorkin who has a social anxiety disorder to begin with. Right. That, that the fact of being in the oval office, meeting the sitting president of the United States, talking about his show and God forbid being pitched a story by anybody. Right.

What is a shitbox? What does it mean to be shitbox? I don't know. To this day, I don't know. I mean, I don't get it, but I don't know exactly what it means. Same with me. But I'm telling you, on my children, he said it, I'll never forget it. And Aaron literally goes, well, thank you, Mr. President. I'm sure you've got a lot of busy things to do. And split. Split! And I'm left in the Oval Office going, ah, ah, ah. And then...

A uniformed, you know, the uniformed Marine Guards, right? Whatever that comes into me and says, Mr. Lowe, I'm like, yes. He goes, the National Security Advisor would like to see you in his office. And I'm like, come on. I go, okay. Was it Sandy? Oh, yeah. So I walk in and I'm thinking, is this about my taxes? I don't know what's going on. And Sandy Berger goes like, sit down. And like super brusque.

And I sit down and he goes, why is there no national security advisor on the West Wing? He did not. Absolutely true story. Actually, now that I have you, because you said nobody forgets their first time in the Oval Office. You know, I'm working on a book now, the history of the White House Situation Room. Ooh. Did anybody, do you remember your first time in the White House Situation Room? Did anybody bring you into the Situation Room when you were there? I only got brought in very recently.

Not the first time. No, they show you the door, the outside door. It's by the mess. It's right by the mess, right? Yeah, right by the mess. Yeah. Yes. And I've never been in the residence ever. Oh, no kidding. Nope. Never been up to the residence. Never been on Air Force One. Air Force One's pretty cool. Here's a great one. Another great Clinton story. This is what a great, like just his human skills are, you know, obviously we're not the first person people to talk about it, but

We come back the next day to watch him get on Marine One. We're standing at the rope line. Marine One has been rotating for like an hour and a half. It's like he's super late. He comes out, he's got his cup of coffee. He looks like he hasn't slept. Comes down the rope line, sees us, comes over, talks to us. I've got my maybe barely year old son in my arms and he has his frog that he carries everywhere that literally if he loses this frog, we've had to cancel vacations.

I mean, it's thanks for Clinton. Oh, okay. I am so glad we're having this talk. Cause I thought this was the most amazing people skills ever. So check it out. My son gives him the frog. He's a year and a half. He doesn't give the frog. He doesn't let it out. Something.

compelled him to hand president Clinton the frog. By the way, there's a pic, I have a picture of it. Wow. And Clinton says, well, you know, frogs are very important to me when I was a young man because I collect them. And my, my, my father used to say to me, you never know how far a frog can go until you kick it. And he says, you can come see this in, in the Clinton library one day. And he took the frog and got walked in the helicopter and flew away. That's a pretty great story.

Is that your son you're working with now? That is. That's the son who grew up to co-create our show on Netflix, which, by the way, today just got its season two premiere. Well, congrats and well-deserved. You guys are really, really good. Do you like it? It's a lot of fun. Oh, good.

Good. So Clinton does collect frogs. I wonder if it's in. Absolutely. I'm sure his frog collection probably is in the presidential library. No, and I'm kind of... Actually, I shouldn't even go. I'm trying to think about why I knew it. Something might have come up in all the Monica Lewinsky stuff where that was an issue, but I don't really actually remember. I know this is me interviewing you, but there are very few people that can appreciate this in a way that you will be able to. So...

I'm reading the first episode of the West one, not the pilot. We've shot the pilot is the first episode. And, and it's the first time they, they put a presidential seal on, on every script that we ever did. And I'm reading it on a flight to Montreal. You ever, the thing where you feel eyes on you, you just feel you're being stared at. And I look up,

And it's Monica. That happens to you every single day. That's true. That's all true. But this was a different vibe. And I look up, it's Monica Lewinsky. Oh, wow. And she's looking at me and then looking at the presidential seal and looking at me and looking at the presidential seal.

And I'm like, oh, I can't even cope. I'm just going to go back to reading this script. So I try to forget about it. I get up, I go to the bathroom a couple hours into the flight. Somebody's in the bathroom. I'm waiting. I'm waiting. Bathroom door opens. It's Monica Lewinsky. We're now face to face. And you had not met before. Never met. Never met her. And I just said. This is at the height of it. This is 1998. This is 1999. So it's after the trial, but it's, oh man. It's at the height.

And, and I don't know her from Adam. And I just say something like compelled me to say, listen, I want you to know something. You should know something. We're doing a show. It's called the West wing. It's going to be everywhere. You're going to hear everything about it. There's not, I just want you to know there's nothing, nothing about anything that would be concerning to you. You don't need, it's, it's, it's not that. And, and she was super sweet and she goes, well, you should know that I used to ditch class for,

and go stand at the fence and watch you while you used to run at the Beverly Hills track. Wow. You can't make life up. I have one for you. You want to see my impersonation of you? Sure. George, you've

Describe Clinton in the following way, quote, complicated man responding to the pressures and pleasures of public wives in public life that I found both awesome and appalling. What did you mean by that? Oh, that's from my book, right? Yeah. That's how you would ask the question. Oh, no, I'd be a little more direct than that.

Oh, no, no, actually, that's fair. No, I gave you the quote, and then I just directly said, what did you mean by that? Then you'd give me the chance to either hang or explain myself, one or the other, depending. And then the question, before I even answered it. Yes. So do you have the follow-up already in your head? Interesting. No, I don't.

Which is okay. And I actually think that's great. I mean, I think you have to be ready for that. But the biggest thing I've learned in now 25 years of interviewing is the most important interviewing skill is listening. It has nothing... It's not about the setup. I mean, it's... Because you always have to have the setup. But it's about being ready for whatever comes next. That's why I don't... That's why I... Other than you saw me pull a note out, I don't do notes because I...

You know, it's funny. I'm deaf in one year, have been my whole life, and I think that I listen and it is my strength in everything I do because I have to really concentrate. Well, it's great for acting. It's essential as well. That's right. That's right. Because, I mean, the thing that interviewers and I think actors have to share is

is that notion of being right in that moment and being very present in that moment. So you're ready to react in real time in a way that, you know, serves the audience, different things. And being as an interviewer, certainly obviously means something different than what an actor would do to serve the audience, but it's that same essential skill. No, you're right. You're right. Yeah, you're right for sure. What, I know what I want to ask you about. What was it like to moderate a presidential debate?

So much fun. I mean, it's, and it's actually fun to prepare for them as well to get to when you, when you're, because when you're preparing, you're learning what every, about the positions of every candidate, you're learning the stress points and where the candidates want to have that debate. And my whole thing, whenever I was doing that was to,

remember that this is their debate, not yours. So my job, I felt, was always to try to figure out what are the debates these candidates then want to have and then try to get that going. Sort of throw the, no pun intended, red meat out on the table and let them go after it. Well, or the meat they've already served. Yeah. It's time to eat now, guys. I don't want to say that you got

but you were fortunate to have two people who know the rules and are really good at what they do. You had Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, I think, is who you had in the Democratic debate. Is that right? Yeah, that was the debate where I got my ass kicked after that debate. Why? It was because, and stuff actually I think is defensible in retrospect. I learned a big lesson after that debate. That was the one where Charlie Gibson and I

uh, were moderating back in 2007, 2008. It would have been, it was probably in Pennsylvania. If I'm remembering this one correctly. And there were a whole bunch of controversial issues that they had been going at each other on. And, you know, with Hillary, it was the whole thing about what she, you know,

All the stuff seems so stripless in retrospect. I know, doesn't it? It all seems quaint today. So quaint, yes. It all seems quaint. The thing was, why wouldn't he wear a flag pin, a patriotic flag pin? Now, it turned out that became a big issue. So I don't apologize at all for asking about it during the debate, but I made it critical. I should have started out, I should have remembered the lesson of James Carville back from 1992.

Our first question in that debate should have been about the economy, even though that's not what they had been talking about. It is the most important thing to viewers. And then it gives you permission to ask all those other questions that we ended up asking. But what happened, this is the early days of a kind of...

not even social media at the time, but the Obama campaign just unleashed their army on me after that debate. And in fact, I remember talking to David Axelrod and it was like kind of a godfather moment. He said something along the lines of, and it's true, we're good friends and I have

great admirer of his and i think he admires the work i've done but he was basically saying jordan's not personal his business that's so great has there ever been a first you say first questions in the debate i immediately go i go back to being in the auditorium at paulie pavilion for bernard shaw first question michael dukakis about kitty

and rape and all that and you know death death penalty question i've never seen i've never been a part of anything like it it was literally you could feel it was over it was over in the room about that and i love michael dukakis he was it was the first presidential campaign i worked on a short greek guy with limited sense of humor you know i can't kind of identify you have a great sense of humor for the record

So does he actually, but the perception is the perception. Yes. Yes. Um, but this, you know, everybody's got a blind spot and that was his, I mean, that question is actually a layup. It's a layup. It's actually a layup. Yes.

And, you know, just he answered in character. And a lot of people said he was overscheduled and overtired. And it was towards the end. I think it was only about 10 days before the election, actually, if I recall more or less. And then he was just just tired and missed, missed, literally missed the layup, as you say. Maybe that's it. I think that's possible. I actually think that campaign I'll never get. I went I worked for I first worked in that campaign. I was in New Hampshire.

Um, at the beginning of the campaign. And then I went on as communications director during the Ohio primary. And then I went to Austin in May, I guess. And by June, when I, you know, we were there that summer before the convention, we were 17 points up.

And that campaign was lost. And maybe it was always going to get tighter than that. But I think that campaign was lost in August when actually, instead of campaigning flat out,

Dukakis did what he normally did in August and do this tour of Western Massachusetts. And it was, again, playing by the old rules. You kind of let the other team have their convention and the Bush campaign used that interim period to unleash Reagan on mental health, to do the Boston Harbor stuff, of course, to do Willie Horton, to do Pledge of Allegiance and the flag. And we never recovered. ♪

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

♪♪♪

It's an amazing story, actually. You forget that he was 17 up. I was very lucky to get to work with. I did a bus tour of 13 cities in Texas with Senator Benson during that time. Oh, wow. What a gentleman, huh? Oh, what a gentleman. And that debate, you're no Jack Kennedy moment.

It's the, what is it? It's the Willie Mays behind the back catch. It's the Magic Johnson baby hook. It's the called, I mean, right? You pick your, it's Tiger Woods draining. That's it. That's the moment of moments. I think of what we learned from that as we prepared Clinton in 1992, but that is also an example of the,

How much of a difference preparation can make? Because Dan Quayle had been using that line, so the teams had seen it, and it was all teed up if Quayle went there again. Quayle served up a line he had served up before. My favorite part of it that people forget, and this is to your point, if you watch it again, and political science nerds, I'm sure, know this, but if you watch it, go YouTube it.

forget the line and the delivery and the crushing. When Quayle says it, they actually cut to Benson. Yeah. And his eyes, literally, there's a shot of literally his eyes going, literally. I mean, this makes you think of something completely different, but on point. Have you seen the movie Air? I have. I hear it's great. I haven't seen it. Yes, I hear it's great. It's unbelievable. To that point,

They show Matt Damon's character replaying footage of a Michael Jordan moment when he's like a freshman. And they keep replaying it and replaying it again and again. And there's like a second left. It's the NCAA shot. Yeah.

Yeah, and they're about to do the famous NCAA shot. And what they show by going back to it again and again and again is that moment before the shot. And Michael Jordan, freshman, what is 16, 17 years old, is as calm as...

as you can possibly be in that moment. He wants the ball. No, not only wants the ball, but everybody on the team and the coach and Michael Jordan know, not only does he want the ball, he should get the ball. Yeah. And he's completely, utterly Zen calm. And that's what Benson's in the fourth moment. By the way, you should know this. Just interesting. Then the West wing, um,

The first thing I did when I got a part of Sam Seaborn was send somebody out to wait, wait at Barnes and Noble for your book to be delivered. Yeah, because it came out in March of 1999. It came out when you guys were starting to share. Yeah, no, no. I sent someone to stand and wait and they got your book off the truck. Thank you.

My kids' college fund. Thank you. We're grateful for that. What's the new book? The new book is The History of the White House Situation Room. Oh, that's right. You were telling me. Yes. Yeah, it's so much fun to be working on. I've been working on it for about nine months. I got to work with a great team. And it's surprisingly to us, and it's the reason I agreed to do it, because I have turned down other opportunities to write books in the past because I didn't think it was a subject where I could definitely add something new.

to it. But this one has never really been done before. And it was the white situation when it was created under John F. Kennedy. And we use it as an opportunity to examine basically crisis management in the modern presidency. There's a chapter on each president from Kennedy through Biden. We've done hundred something interviews with

Cabinet officials, secretaries of state, Henry Kissinger, Condoleezza Rice, Tony Lake, just Stephen Hadley, dozens of actual sit room personnel. And they're the heroes of this book. And we've uncovered some new stuff and we're going to be able to show you.

in some cases, the heroism of these people, but also their patriotism and professionalism. And it's a window on some exciting, dramatic,

thrilling, scary moments in the presidency as well. It's been so much fun to work on. It's going to come out next June. Well, it sounds, I will send somebody to be waiting. Well, now I don't have to do it. I go to Amazon and get it. But what, they did a big renovation outside the West Wing over the, like about four or five years ago, right? In fact, they're renovating, well, they've been a couple renovations

the Situation Room is almost always behind the times because nobody ever wants to do a full renovation. We have a couple stories about that as well, but right now they're in the midst of renovating the Situation Room again. And I'm hoping to be able to get back in before the book comes out and talk about that as well. Because when you see the most famous photo that I can think of is the, maybe it's the Bin Laden raid where... Yeah. The Situation Room is a complex. It's different from...

When I was there, it was really only a room and a half. It was renovated under George W. Bush and turned into about three or four rooms. And Obama's in the offshoot room watching at that time that is right behind the Situation Room. And now it's being renovated again. But boy, what an iconic photo. Iconic photo. And also, it's like there are two things that drive me crazy in politics aesthetically.

I'm very shallow and I love things to look pretty. One is the Naugahyde wood paneling in that Situation Room photo. It literally looks like Chris Farley's basement.

And the JFK conference room actually at the time when I was there had my odd getting, it looks like, but it kind of looked like a Poconos. Yes. Yes. It's not a good look. And it's a little bit up to date. It doesn't instill confidence. And then the other is at the UN that whatever that conference,

kind of marble is behind the speaker. It makes it look like you're in one of the lesser Saudi Arabian princes' showers. Well, yeah. It's that brute modernism. It's so like 1962. It's like the old TWA terminal at JFK as well. It definitely captures a moment in time. Yeah, it's not... That could use...

a replay. Now for the most important question, how's your golf game going? I was just thinking of golf and you brought up the Saudis cause I'm pissed off about the, Oh, isn't it unbelievable? Isn't it unbelievable? It's on. How about if you're tiger or any of these guys that turned down, listen, nobody needs to have a pity party for any of these guys that got plenty of money. But, but I mean, can you imagine the, like you have an opportunity to, how about the young guys like a Colin Marikawa, a young guy,

He's got his whole life ahead of him. They say, hey, we're going to pay you, I don't know, 300, 400, 500 million to come over here. And the PGA people are like, well, you know, that would be against their morals. And then they turn around. It's unbelievable. I don't know what the ramifications are going to be, but there has to be some, right? We'll see. I don't know. It seems like it's just going to move along. But to answer your question, my golf game sucks. But I'm coming to...

I'm coming to terms with them. I'm kind of at peace with it. I definitely have tried to cultivate the mindset now. Good shot is good shot. A good hole is a good hole. Don't worry about the rest. It's tough. You're competitive like me. You can't, you can't get to where you got in the world you got without being competitive. You can't. So it's hard. It's hard to have that kind of stuff. I think turning around because my wife is trying to crash. Come in, have a crash, have a crash.

I'm crashing. Oh, how are you, darling? How are you? The great Allie Wentworth is joining us. Hi. Hi. Well, it's good that you're here because I want to talk about the Brooke Shields documentary, how everybody loved it, right? Well, what about, shouldn't you have married Brooke Shields?

Well, you know, that's right, George. Did you hear that? I ran into Allie on the, on the, I heard cause I, you hinted at it when you were on the show talking about your show, but we didn't have time to get into it. And then Allie said she ran into and got the real story. I, without a doubt, Terry Shields was trying to do an arranged marriage. There's just not even a question about it. By the way, Brooke agrees. She does. Yeah.

See? Yeah. Yeah. No, but come on. Brooke is like, well, we were the most beautiful people. And I went, boy, you and Rob have no problem bringing that up, do you? I never use that phrase now. Come on. No. Well, maybe it's true. I don't know. But don't you think the combination, the two sets of eyebrows, that it would have been a problem? It would have been a centipede. It would have literally been our eyebrows and eyes. Well, here's what happens. When those genetics go together, it goes the other way.

Like, I'm very concerned about the genetic combination of me and Brooke Shields. Well, but then again, if George and Brooke Shields, it could have been a full hairball depending on where everything laid. I mean, if they would have gotten together, it was pre-Internet.

Yes. It would have broken the internet, even though the internet didn't exist. It would have. It would have. You would have had paparazzi chasing you 24 seven. There was only one fatal flaw in Terry's mechanizations. What was that? That I was a great, notably crazy 20 year old single man. And Brooke was a professional virgin. Yeah.

Oh, you weren't a virgin back then? Yeah, I wasn't really. Um, I don't, I think Terry would have been fine with. My daughter wants to crash the podcast. Yeah, come in. Come on. I want the whole family. I'm just,

Elliot Rock. Hi, how are you? Oh my God, you're so cute. Hello. You look exactly like George. Yay. I love it. Go back to your podcast. All right. I think we're going to try to come out to the Long Island and we'll look you up for sure. I think maybe August sometime. Are you going to stay with Gwyneth and Brad? Yeah.

Oh, that'd be amazing. Boy, isn't this a great conversation? You can edit this all out. I don't know. As my political advisor, George, I think we, I want to be able to run things by you. Should I say this? Should I, should I words, workshop this, wordsmith this? Go for it. Um, I love your wife. She's great. You did well by yourself. I'll tell you that. You definitely chose well. Um, what else do I want to do? The most important decision you can make, right? It's the only decision. It's the lifesaver. Yep.

It's the lifesaver. Um, well, we got, it's going to be a great election cycle. Do you get excited? I mean, you must, because now it gets fun. I mean, it gets every day. There's something new or are you over it? No, neither. But fun is not the word I use anymore because, um, it's too much is at stake. So it's, I mean, okay, fair enough. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm too scared to be, to say it's fun. Um,

I think this is a critical, I mean, we always say that, but I do think this one, uh, really is. I think what we've gone through in the last few years has just been a transformation of what it means. I think our democracy that we can't allow to go to the next level. I mean, so far the institutions have held, but, um, no, I'm worried about it. And I, I,

and kind of shocked at the things that we're dealing with in our political system every single day. I mean, the idea to me that, you know, we started the conversation talking about this, but that you have a former president who was impeached twice, let it, you know, sparked what appeared to be an insurrection against its own government because he refused to acknowledge that he lost an election.

has since lost a defamation case and been over sexual assault and is on the verge, probably, of being indicted for taking classified documents and obstructing justice, not to mention what happens on January 6th, and he's the leading candidate in the Republican Party. I still can't wrap my head around it. And those people, the Trump supporters are out there, and they buy products, and they vote, and they do, and it's not like you can ignore it.

No, you can't. You have to cover it. I think it's important to cover in context and make sure that you're always giving all the facts and you're not amplifying. Do you think if somebody comes in with a kinder, gentler... And listen, we've all known Trump forever. I mean, we knew him in New York. We knew him in the 80s. So he's not a new brand for us. And he wasn't a new brand. He is who he is. Do you think if somebody comes in with...

The folk, because Trump was the first person to ever focus on immigration in a real way. Nobody wanted to talk about it. Nobody, nobody, nobody. Now everybody talks about it. And so do you think, I don't, I don't fully agree with that. There were a lot. I mean, George W. Bush tried to get bipartisan immigration reform back in the early two thousands. It's never, never. That's true. He did. You're right. Oh,

I mean, and I think actually Obama tried as well to get it done. I mean, it is, I think you're right that no one before Trump was willing to address it in the way he addressed it with, you know, this idea of the wall that we paid for by Mexico, which wasn't built and wasn't paid for by Mexico. And this idea of demonizing to a degree, unlike Trump,

any other candidate had done before demonizing immigrants who are coming to this country. Now that has, I think he did, has shifted the Republican Party in his direction on that and many other issues. But he wasn't the first person to, I think, talk about immigration. I think he was the first person to talk about it in the way that he talked about it.

And there's an argument to be made that the way he talked about it, it was surely that rhetoric was not good, but it's a way that takes it out of the egghead beltway. Oh, absolutely. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. And that's, and look, you know, that's what you and James did so well with, with, with Clinton. It's put the, these are the issues, but they need to be dealt with in a way that, that people has meaning in people's actual lives. It's not some philosophical esoteric beltway jargon filled thing. And that's, I think,

you know, like it or hate it. That's what Trump is very, very good at. And, you know, he, he, he remade the, he, he took advantage of the fact that Republican party was broken in some ways, remade it in his own image. And now they're trying to deal with those consequences. Do you think that there, what do you make of DeSantis Disney? I, we have to talk about that and then we'll go. Um,

Well, obviously I'm a Disney employee. We all work for, yeah, we both work. Look, we both work for Disney. We both work for Disney. I think, you know, listen, I think- I don't want to tangle with Bob Iger. I love Bob Iger. I think Bob Iger's super smart. I agree with what he's been doing. I agree the way he's playing this issue right now. I think Ron DeSantis took it too far. If he ever does an interview, I'm happy to ask him about it. But it doesn't seem like that's going to happen anytime soon. No, it doesn't. It's going to be, it's going to be-

I, you're right. I shouldn't use the word fun. There's too much at stake. What's the word that we should use? Energizing. Energizing.

And that's what it'll be going forward. Well, I know I'll be seeing you. I love my once or twice a year running in to see you and Robin and the gang. Um, right. With some of the time I play golf and you can see just how bad I am. And I want to come in and co-host again. I had more fun that week. We did that. I had a absolute, it'd be hard for me to do the early mornings. You're my hero. I don't know how you, what time do you go? Tell everybody what time you have to wake up every morning. That

Bed by 8. I go to bed around 8, 8.30 and I get up around 3, 3.30. You get up around 3, 3.30. Yeah. But I go to bed early. Wow. You're my hero. Thank you for doing this. This is great. This is fun. Thank you. Well, all I can think of is how cool it would have been to be 1992 young George Stephanopoulos. He's got that hedgehog head hair going and he's

Bringing it back burgers to the Clinton campaign and Little Rock. And you're sitting around talking smack. Oh, man, that would have been great. What a great guy. What a great talk. Smart man and good dude. Hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And there's more to come as there usually is next week on Literally. Hello, you've reached Literally and our lowdown line.

where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep. Hey, Rob. What's up, man? It's David Himes from Clearwater, Florida. So I just finished binge-watching Unstable, and I was wondering, what of those things that occurred in the show that you were doing that were crazy that you actually have done or a variation of what you've done? Like, I could totally see you

helping the landscaper one day at your home and incorporating them to the show and uh follow up to that you recently discussed how you dressed up like sasquatch to scare your children on a camping trip so if there's any way that you could write that into a season two or season three episode that would be hilarious all right buddy thank you man enjoy everything you do

Thank you. I'm glad you're loving Unstable. We have so much fun doing it. In season two, I think you're right. I think the Sasquatch story, Ellis Dragon would... See, this is the thing I love about playing Ellis Dragon, is the character can do literally anything you can imagine, and it will feel realistic to that character. And coming up with a character like that is very, very hard work.

Um, to do. And when you do, it's like Christmas morning for an actor. Cause like literally nothing is out of character. Um, and you know, Ellis is like me blown up to the most absurd degree. Um, like I actually did wear a Sasquatch suit to scare my kids on a camping trip.

Not everybody would do that. Ellis Dragon would. So it takes real elements of my worldview and my enthusiasm for life and...

Wanting to try new things and puts a really big, giant comedy top spin on it. And it doesn't help that my own son co-created it and is standing next to me in almost every scene. So thank you for watching. And don't forget to watch season two. Thanks.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Nick Liao, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar, researched by Alyssa Graw. The podcast is executive produced by Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and myself at Team Coco, and Colin Anderson at Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd, music by Devin Bryant. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally with Rob Lowe. This has been a Team Coco production.

All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers, passport. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel. ♪

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