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Hey, everybody. Welcome to Literally. I always love having actors on whose work I admire so much. Casey Affleck, Oscar winner, writer, director, just always so interesting on screen and always delivers. And he's got a new film you can get on Apple Plus now called The Instigators, which he also co-wrote.
Um, and I haven't had much of a chance ever to catch up with Mr. Affleck. So I'm looking forward to this. Let's get going. I'm psyched to talk to you, man. Um, I'm a huge, huge, huge, huge fan of yours, man. Uh, I mean, uh, I remember going to see, uh, assassination of Jesse James, uh,
Well, let's do the session of Jesse James by the coward Robert Ford. Longest title ever. Thanks, man. That's really nice of you to say. I feel the same about you. I've been watching you forever. And so much to talk about. But yeah, that was, man, yeah, longest title because that's how things were titled in the 19th century. It was sort of a title borrowed from
that era where they would explain the whole story and the title and it would be really long. Like trailers for movies today. You don't even see the movie. Yeah, exactly. That's funny. My favorite is, I just had the notion of, you know, I always think like from an actor's point of view, it's like you get the script, you're like, oh my God, I got a script. Oh, fucking yeah, Jesse James, he's a stud. No, no, you'll be playing the coward. Yeah.
You know, man, I would have taken anything. You could have put any word before my character's name in 2007. I'd be like, that sounds good. That's just the character I've been wanting to play. But is it, by the way, the best part of it? I mean, I'm a huge Brad fan, but you stole that movie, man. It's such a sick movie. I mean, I know it got its proper due, but if people listen, if you haven't seen it,
I mean, it's like, it's the movie you want Terrence Malick to make. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, Andrew Dominick worked a little bit for Malick. He shot second unit on...
Was it Tree of Life? No, Tree of Life was after that, I think. No, it was the one that was set in the colony, in Roanoke Colony. I just kept blanking on the name for some reason. Anyway, so he knew Terry and had worked for him and with him and definitely influenced his. But yeah, it's a beautiful, like, one of those movies you can sit back and watch and pay close attention to and it's really rewarding or you can just put it on and sort of absorb it from afar and it's great. I don't know about
about stealing anything from Brad. I've never seen a movie where it was stolen from Brad Pitt. Yeah, I know. That's true.
I did. I would live him in the plot. You shoot him in the back, right? Now, he's getting up on it because I did a not so good version of Frank and Jesse James with Bill Paxton. I remember that. Who I loved. Yeah, and Bill played Frank James. Yeah, we played brothers, Frank and Jesse James. And that goddamn dirty coward, Robert Ford Shepard,
shot me getting up on a chair to adjust a picture frame. Is that a legend? In the movie, Jesse says, ain't that picture dusty? And he gets up there knowing that he's about to be shot. Right. Yeah, that was our take on it as well. He kind of knew the jig was up. I mean...
It was like, go ahead, shoot me in the back if you will, right? If you have the balls to shoot me in the back. Yeah, which is ironic and also part of why the title is ironic because shooting him in the back feels sort of cowardly. On the other hand, this man was hunted by the FBI, by sheriffs, by the public at large who wanted to reward themselves, by everyone in his gang, a gang of lifelong outlaws.
And no one had the guts to do it or could find him or could get it done. And then this kid, you know, this 20-year-old kid manages to both have the courage and the ability to, like, kill one of the most dangerous men alive.
It's a great, it's such a good movie. But had you worked with Brad on, I know you had a little bit of thing in Oceans. Is that the first time? Yeah. Can I forget my chronology? Yeah. Yeah, I'm forgetting my chronology too. Yeah, that Oceans was the first time. And this fell somewhere in between 11 and 13, I guess. And I know you've got, you've got Instigators,
coming out which you wrote and you i read that you said one of your influences is talking about um cowboys my favorite movie of all time butch casting the sundance kid yeah for sure gotta be one of the great movies right for sure yeah definitely i mean not even close right i don't know anyone that doesn't like it if someone says like i don't like how about this have you have you have you read pauline kale's original review of it you should read it bad because she would
Dude, it got horrible reviews. That's funny. That movie, when it came out, got horrible reviews.
And I am older than you, so I had the good fortune of seeing it in the theaters. Oh, wow. It's the first adult movie I remember going to in the theaters. Wow. Wow. How interesting. I'm not surprised that it got a bad review, even by someone as smart as Pauline Kael. But those reviews are just more often than not, you look back at classics and they're either a failure at the box office or they're panned by critics. Yeah.
You know, these reviews are just like it's like a first impression of something of someone, you know, it's not. Yeah. It's hard to see a great movie the first time and know that it's great, you know, or else it isn't going to age well, probably. So you that's amazing. The first movie that I saw in the theaters that I can remember seeing was The Harder They Come. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a good one, though. Yeah.
That's a kind of classic, you know, milestone movie. Yeah, I mean, most people would have seen, like, you know, Goonies or Jaws or something, but I just happened to be, like, a babysitter going to see that movie, dragged, like, six-year-old me along, and I...
just had no idea what was going on in that film, you know? But you remember it to this day. I remember it because it was so... The experience was so... Everything about it was so foreign, and it was a little bit scary to a kid because, you know, there's some violence, there's sex, there's stuff going on in the movie, but the movie theater itself was full of smoke. People were yelling back at the screen,
Standing up, talking, yelling at the street, dancing. Whenever he played music or performed music, people were dancing. And so it was just like this wild experience for a kid. Yeah. That's sick. You saw Butch Cassidy. Amazing. I saw it. I mean, and I quote it regularly. I mean, who doesn't? And the other thing is just seeing Newman play.
And Redford, but there's something about Paul Newman to me. It forever like seared into my brain, like what a movie star is. And like, and then of course, because I'm obsessed with that movie, I've seen as I'm sure you have the sort of, I think when the Criterion series came out and they had that amazing, like,
those interviews with, with all of them. And then George Roy Hill's not on camera for his interview. Right. And it's like, and he, he, and he, you know, he was full of, you know, he had huge back problems. So I think he'd probably had some Percocet and, and,
It's super weird, but it's such... And that great thing of where they had to take Newman aside a weekend and be like, Paul, man, you got to stop trying to be funny. I don't remember that. Yeah, they had to take him aside. And they said, this is by the way, it's George Rory Hill saying it. I'm not making it up. And he's like, Paul was trying to be funny. He thought it was a comedy. I mean, which it kind of is. So they just play it straight.
Wow. Isn't that interesting? And it's obviously, you know, you direct. That's one of the prime directives to people. Don't try to be funny. Yeah, I mean, he's funnier. He's the funniest in the movie. And they're both playing it very grounded and straight and real. But Redford is doing a much drier, you know, thing. Maybe that was George Roy Hill just trying to take some credit. Yes, absolutely.
So you were obsessed with Newman. I was just thinking about how when you were a kid, when you were a kid, when, when, um,
When The Outsiders came out, she wrote that in like the 60s. And Paul Newman was already a star. You believe it? Yeah, amazing. The first line of the book is like, I came out of a Paul Newman movie or something. When I walked out of the darkness of the movie theater, I had only two thoughts, Paul Newman and the walk home. Oh, right. So good. Those books are some of my all-time favorites, man. She was...
It was like a miracle that she wrote that stuff in high school. She was 16 when she wrote The Outsiders. And, you know, the publishers made her use her initials so that people wouldn't know that it was written by a woman. Yeah. So before there was J.K. Rowling, there was S.E. Hinton. Yeah. Amazing. And...
She's such a character. She was on set every day. And you'll appreciate this also as a writer. I mean, you know how crazy the writer's guild is with credits and rewrites and who wrote what in the script. So there's a writer who's credited for writing The Outsiders. If you look it up, The Outsiders was written by somebody named Catherine Knudsen Rowell. I have no idea...
S.E. Hinton and Francis wrote that movie. Wow. They wrote the movie and she wrote the fucking book. But it's just with that. It was my first sort of foray into like union bureaucracy as a kid to watch fucking Francis Ford Coppola, who, by the way, has an Oscar for screenwriting for Patton, not get credit for writing The Outsiders. Mm hmm.
I mean, it's complicated. I know what you're saying, but imagine if some unknown person wrote a good screenplay, Coppola comes on, starts tinkering with it, and they're like, yeah, it's a Coppola screenplay. And this poor person gets no credit. I know, I know. It can be an error in both directions, but she must have only been in her 40s. If she was writing the book, The Outsiders, in the mid-60s, and you did the movie in the mid-80s,
She was 82. I think she was probably late. I bet she was like 35. And just there every day and sort of like camp counselor mama bear to all of us. Insane. Did you have a sense that it was going to be a great movie? Or when you read the book, did you think, this is incredible, I have to be in it? What's interesting was that the book then...
was not what it is today. Like, today, it's in the curriculum of every 7th or 8th grade. Like, everybody, it's, like, required. So I wasn't aware of it until it was out there and every actor in the world was dying to play. And the audition process was broke. I mean, the audition process almost broke. It did break certain actors. It was so insane. But we...
I think we thought the, we knew we were making something special because it was Francis. I mean, it was like, wait a minute. The guy who made apocalypse now is making this movie. We get to be in it. Are you kidding me? Yeah. How old are you? I was 17. I turned eight, turned 18. So I saw the, the audition process on apocalypse now on some documentary. And, um,
And it seemed like a workshop space, like the actors in there, they're all doing different parts. Is that what you were doing? Yeah. And I had not seen that apocalypse tape. And then when I saw it, I had this overwhelming, visceral feeling of what it was like for us.
on Outsiders. Francis had just bought Zotrope Studios. He was the first sort of auteur to buy a studio. People thought it was a folly. And he had One from the Heart come out and just bomb. And he was losing everything. And he was in the media and everybody was after him. And he took a soundstage and that's where we did the auditions. And it was just
chairs against the wall and everybody came at the same time. It wasn't like you had an appointment at four and then I came in at four, none of it. It was like nine o'clock. Every actor showed up in mass, took a place along the wall.
And Francis would go, you, um, not you, you, not you or you, you and, and, uh, you, uh, soda pop. No, no, no, no. Uh, two bit Matthews and you, and you didn't know who you were going to play, what you were getting. You didn't know anything. And it went on all day long for about a week. Wow.
And did you know everyone? You knew Ralph Macho, Tom Cruise, Estevez, everyone. Yeah. And then you knew the people that like, like the kid from E.T. was there. And like Scott Baio from Happy Days was there. Mickey Rourke was there wearing roller skates. I mean, it was Dennis Quaid was like, I'm telling you, everybody was there.
And, like, you know, you'd go in on a Monday and all of a sudden so-and-so would be gone. And then you'd make it to Tuesday and so-and-so, five other people would be gone. And then you'd sort of get to the end of the week and you got a sense of that you were in play. And for me, it was like, it became where I was...
only playing Soda Pop or Randy the Soch. And I started praying that I wouldn't get Randy the Soch. Because there's only two scenes. But I was like, fuck, this is going one of two ways, if it's going. And then we went to New York and did the whole thing with New York. And it was with every New York actor. Wow. Amazing. I mean...
Your career path could have taken Randy the Soch. It could have. I mean, listen, but isn't that the true one? And that happens sort of time and time and time, not time and time, but they're like, you look back and you go, oh, that could have gone differently. My wife still gives me shit for turning down Grey's Anatomy. She's like,
we would have a much bigger pool. You guys probably have a good pool. What a cool memory. I just worked with Lawrence Fishburne a couple of years ago on something, and such a sweet, sweet guy, and we had a nice time. And he was telling me about being a teenager on Apocalypse. So that was like... He was 15. He lied about his age.
And they went on like an eight month hiatus and he just stayed over there like a teenager. I guess he had a parent with him, but like certainly no friends. And oh, the story is I was friendly with Dennis Hopper before he passed. And I would he was the first one that told me the story that which was sort of an apocryphal story. And he confirmed it.
that when Brando showed up, he had promised, A, he would be in shape. He wasn't. And that he showed up with his head shaved and that he had not read Hearts of Darkness, the Conrad book, had not read it, which he had promised, and that he made Francis read it to him on the clock when he had like a two-week hard out. And after the hard out, he gets paid...
like pro rata. So I came in, why don't you just read it to me every day? But like, it's a new go. That can't be true. It's like, Oh yeah, true. And how about this? Dennis lived in the village, like in Kurtz's compound. He camped out there and this is him like with blow. And he would take he and the, uh, the like Philippine government soldiers, uh,
would commandeer the equipment at night and just run, just fucking ATV around the set all night. Like that's crazy. That's when movies are movies. Their sets are not like that. No.
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a piece of paper that branded it with his signature on it that he had to sign before Apocalypse Now that promises that he will be prepared and it sort of lists what he has to do and that he won't sue because he had become notorious for suing the production for funds that he felt had been not, he had not been paid in the post and that, you know, that he auditing through a lawsuit to get his like back end.
So they made him sign something that says, I will learn my lines. I will show up on time. I will like a kid, which he signs and then immediately shows up. Hasn't read the book. Hasn't done anything. I don't know why it gives me so much joy to hear those stories about Brando. Did you ever get to meet Brando? No. It's funny. I didn't. And yet I had friends that were in the clique, kind of like my friend, Carrie Elwes.
for whatever reason, became Penn, Sean Penn, tight with Brando. I had one interaction. I went to, there used to be one fancy French, only five-star French restaurant in LA. I forget the name of it. And I went once and it was like one of those long, boring dinners, tiny little services that take forever to come, but super fancy. And I just hear behind me,
What, what, what, what taste is this? I'm tasting like some sort of jalapeno. And you just know, you're just like, oh, I didn't even have to turn around. I was like, and I turn around and there's Brando ginormous with like, it looked like a bunch of sort of folks from the Philippines with their Instamatic cameras on the table taking pictures of them. I have no idea what was going on. Weird.
It was so odd and also just sort of wonderful. Jalapeno. It's like when he tucks it up. It was...
Magnolia plantation. That's a good impression. I don't know. He's so weird and so wonderful and beautiful and such an artist. And I just love him so much. I wish I had met him. And the closest I came was that he was apparently late in life for some reason.
by the time I had arrived and living out here in LA, I'd heard about it, but just weeks too late, he was screening his movie, Burn, the Pontecorvo movie at like CIA or something. And he was, and which he claimed was his favorite movie. And he just randomly said, I'm going to do a screening for it. So all these agents got to watch it and all these people that just happened to be there. And he, then he talked about it. And it was like, it's, it's the one movie screening I, I,
I regret missing. Who did you, as a kid or even a young actor, look at and be inspired by? Who's your guy? By the time I started paying attention to those things and not just watching movies because I liked going to the movie theater and watching movies, it was Newman.
and Redford and Brando. It was those two, Jack Nicholson. You know, I had a fondness for two people that were kind of like mischievous and you could tell that they were not coloring within the lines on that set. You know, Nicholson, you always felt like he was turning the place upside down. Brando too. And I was, when I first started, I was on my second, I was doing the second movie
I was at college, and so I left to go do it. And it was in Australia. And the crew after that movie, which was terrible, was going on to shoot The Island of Dr. Moreau. And so they're talking about it. They're like, yeah, we're going to do this Marlon Brando movie of North.
And I said, I'll do anything if you'll let me come. And so the sound department agreed that I could be their third dude. It's usually sound department, like two people. So I was like,
Okay, I changed my ticket. I wasn't going back to the States. I was going to wrap this movie and go up north and work on the island of Dr. Moreau in the sound department. And at the last minute, they were like, we're having to do serious work.
checks on all the people who are involved on set because they're brand new. Like he doesn't want, you know, he wanted, he was running a very tight ship or someone was around him and they were like, we're not bringing interns, like no interns on set. No, no. So I was that close. Oh man. Oh, seeing that up close, which would have been incredible. Well, that, I mean that obviously that documentary about the making of that and, oh man,
I mean, that's where Mike Myers got the idea for Mini-Me. Oh, really? Yeah, from when Brando found the little person. Yes. And then Brando's wearing an ice bucket on his head at one point. The guy was standing on his shoulder, washing Brando's head in one of the scenes. Sudsing his head with a sponge, bald head with a sponge. Yeah, what a gift Brando is.
You know what else I watched recently? When was the last time you saw The Sting? Not too long ago. I watched that with my kids like once a year. Yeah, right? I mean, it's... Other than the fact that it's... Because it's all shot on the... And it's great. I work at Fox all the time and I get to go by...
the diner and where, where the, the girl lived. It's right there in the back lot of Fox. And every day I pass. Yeah. And, and, you know, Redford looks up and sees the light go on all that. It's like, and, and I love that. The, the movie looks like a TV movie, but other than that, it's the, I think it might be the perfect movie. Yeah. Those,
Those are the days when they're churning out perfect movies, when they were just telling stories, such precision, you know what I mean? The verdict, the staying, they were just like, so I didn't know that was on Fox. I've been to a hundred auditions there and Fox got none of those parts. I could have been exploring the like backlot. Damn. I got to shoot a couple of times in that diner. And I always think about
I always go, this is where Redford sat and had his pie and waited to ask her when she got off work. You know, I worked with him a few years ago. Oh, yeah. I got to ask. Yes, thank you. You got to tell me everything because here's the thing. You know how it is. You get to meet your heroes pretty much in this business. I had had so many near misses with Redford and never had I met him until finally I literally just grabbed him
on a red carpet for, um, the movie he did that great movie where it's just him on the boat. All's lost. All's lost. And it was great. I just got to like, like give it up to him and be like, you know, you meant so much to me. And I, and I love being able to do that. Just, I don't know. They think I'm crap. I don't care. It's like, I just need to tell someone like that, what they meant to my life. And I can't even imagine what it would be like to work with him. What, what, what was your experience?
You know, it was like easy. It's just easy. You know, you're in his presence. There's like he carries all of that greatness around with him. He's not bringing it around, but it is just floating around him in the nicest, warmest light, you know. And there's a few people that I've met where I thought like,
I don't know what to attribute it to, but they have this, like, incredible, like,
lovable quality. And it's unexpected, you know, because it's like Nick Cave, Robert Redford, you know, you're sort of like in their presence and you just sort of want to, he wants to just cry and hug them and just say, like, take care of me. You know what I mean? Thank you. I love you. Thank you. And he's a bit like that, but it's also so disarming and humble that you don't have to do that.
because he just sits down and strikes up conversation, and pretty soon you're talking about the Red Sox and old movies, and nothing seems...
out of bounds you don't feel like you're walking on eggshells you don't feel like you're in the presence of someone who's making you feel small you're in the presence of someone who is huge and they're making you feel like you belong there and it's such a nice quality to have um and he's just killing it he was like i don't know i think he was 80 maybe 80 something at the time and um
He knew every word he was playing. He was taking his direction. He was doing it in different ways, doing things that I still can't do. And I definitely won't be doing at that age if I'm lucky to be working. And I don't know, you know, that kind of success, like legendary success, you know, you've met a lot of people and maybe you would agree that it makes people more of what they already are. You know, that, that saying, I was just talking to someone about this and it's a,
It's just made him more gracious, more giving, more, you know, easygoing, more affable, more approachable, more all those things. And then after you think like, oh, it was a nice day with that guy. I had a great conversation with that guy. That guy who is also a legend and done some of the, made some of the best films ever, you know, and, you know, because I was sitting there as a kid, like as a little, little kid watching him on the screen with
With no sense of him being a person that wasn't the character I was seeing. You know? Just so young that you're just living with the sting or with which guest is in the skit or with the natural or with Jeremiah Johnson or with... On and on and on. And then... Three days of the Condor. I mean... Yeah, the resume. It goes on and on. Anyway, he's a beautiful guy. I'm so envious. I just...
Ordinary people. Oh, man. Ordinary people. I mean, the whole Sundance Institute is something that like to build that. I mean, it's a part of the industry. It's a vertebrae on the spine of our whole industry. And he made it. Not for profit, not for his own gain, never nothing. Well, think of it. Butch and Sundance. One makes Newman's own.
Right. Yeah. Never made an all to charity. Best lemonade you'll ever have still. And I even like their fake Oreos and their salsa. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's great. And he creates Sundance. I mean, it really is kind of amazing. Yeah. And it was before, it was before. That's just what you did. You have a tequila company or you have a this or that, like they, they invented it and, and they didn't do it for commerce or for optics. Yeah.
They weren't doing it because, well, you needed to have a charity. You know what I mean? So it's a good look. And then, yeah, they didn't do it to get rich. They were like, you know, giving back. It's fun when you ski Sundance. If the snow's low enough, you can see some of the sets from Jeremiah Johnson. No way. Yeah, it's pretty sick. There's one lift, there's one chairlift you can get on. And you're like, oh, yeah, that's...
where the, you know, the grizz came up and like, remember that, that whole thing? Yeah. It's, yeah, he literally was like, I'm going to buy this. How about that? You're shooting a movie on location. You go, I'm going to buy this place. I'm going to buy this mountain. And on this mountain that I just am shooting at today, randomly, I'm going to make a film institute. And then it becomes Sundance. Talk about vision. Yeah. I mean, the other thing is those guys were stars when stars were stars. And, and,
You know, there's a very famous Ron Galella, who was the first paparazzi. And he was he was the first he had a restraining order taken out against him, I think, by Brando. I think there's actually a picture of Brando wearing a football helmet walking past Galella. In other words, like, don't fuck with me. And anyway, but he has he has a photo you can look up that he took of Redford getting out of a out of a Lincoln in Manhattan.
And he's got mirrored aviators, a black collared shirt, some kind of sport coat. And you're like, get the fuck out. You're like, come on. Are you kidding me? It's like, that's a star. And today it's like, because there's so much of that,
That's the image I have of Redford as opposed to Redford, you know, going out and getting his Dunkin' Donuts in the morning. Yeah. Which is what we have. There's just so much more access. I think the mystery is gone through no fault of the actors necessarily. It was just a different time. And same with Newman. I mean, the pictures you see of Newman in his life, each one's more iconic than the next one. Yeah, that's true. It was more special. Yeah.
They weren't as common. They weren't everywhere. The paparazzi, among other things, ruined that. Yeah, he was a star. Those guys were impressive. I mean, then there was also probably all those guys in the 80s that didn't have as noble and artistic an existence. They were just sort of like
out there living that other kind of Hollywood lifestyle in the 80s that were pretty gnarly, you know? And I was too young, you know, I didn't know anything about that world, you know what I mean? I didn't come out to L.A. until the late 90s, mid-90s, so... It was a different world by then, a totally different world. Yeah. I mean, I came in at the very, very end of the old-time movie stars, like,
like I think Jimmy Stewart was still acting barely. Um, I got to meet Cary Grant, spent a lot of time with him actually. Um,
you know, that, that was the, that, and the Nick, the Nicholson's were ruling the world and Warren got to, I had some good, good, good stories with Warren and he was, you know, running amok at that point. I think everybody had a Warren story and like, that was kind of, you know, I mean, I guess he was like kind of the Leo, not kind of, he was the Leo of his day. He was like an Academy Award winner, a tour, you know, top of his class and what he did and then just running amok.
you know, on the scene. Just incredibly good looking, charming. Yeah. Talented. Yeah. You don't see him out too much. I mean, you hear too much about Warren anymore, but no. And I'll tell you the other thing that's insane. And it's the, the nature of life is, you know, you know, when we go, we go and we'll be remembered to the extent that we're remembered. But man, my kids have no idea who Warren Beatty is. None. Zero.
Zero. Yeah, happens quickly. And they're, you know, one of them's one of my since Johnny is an actor. I mean, he knows enough to know that he's educated himself. So he knows. But it's not in the zeitgeist. You know, by the way, as Cary Grant wasn't when I met Cary Grant, he hadn't done a movie in I don't know how many years.
And I knew Cary Grant from Cary Granette in the Flintstones. I was like, I knew that character from the Flintstones that it was based on an old time movie star. And I met him as like, Hey, you crazy old man. Hey, cool to me. I got no fucking clue like what I was in the presence of until so much later. And then I'm like, Oh my God, that, that was that man. Yeah. But you know, time cycles on for all of us, you know, and they'll be like,
That's why we keep working. In the blink of an eye, it'll happen. I mean, you have had a really long career, man. You have never, I'm aware, been gone off the map for too long. You've worked consistently since you were
since you were Soda Pop, probably before that as a little kid, good looking little dude. And then, uh, and, and you're, you're here now still as that is like, you're in the 0.1% of people who work and get, get to work from the beginning to the end. You know, you're almost basically in puberty when you started and then you're here you are. And, um,
And so what does it make you think to know that like in a blink, it'll all be forgotten? All that work. I mean, does it change? Does it make you think you wish you had done different things, made different choices? I mean, one of the things that I'm like, there are plenty of things that I'm not super happy about. I'm sure because I'm a human and I'm flawed like everybody else. But I don't.
suffer from second guessing because I think part of it is I'm so grateful to be where I am in terms of who I am and where I am as a person now. And I feel like everything, if I went back and changed anything, it might change the trajectory that led me to where I am today. So I don't
I mean, look, I'm sure if I really dug down, I would find regrets. But if so, they're they're they're minor enough. And I wouldn't change one thing. I'm so fucking lucky and blessed and feel like I've got so much still to do and want to do that that I feel I feel better now than I've ever felt in my life. And that's a good place to be when you when you turn 60. You're like, I feel like I'm 20 still. That's great. That's great, man. Congratulations.
I mean, by the way, a lot of time in the psychiatrist chair. Is that behind you or are you still putting in those hours? I put in the hours, bro. Put in the hours every Tuesday. And it's for me, you know, because I've been sober a long time now. I'm sober 34 years. And one of the things I know is that's my insurance policy. Like that's what I've got to keep that strong forever.
Even when I feel like I don't need it. And the good news is, is this many years in, I, I, I'm, it's in my DNA. I don't have to maintain it like I used to, but I still once a week,
you know, do something related to therapy slash sobriety. And, and I try to help others who are coming in. I really get a lot out of that because it reminds me of, uh, like it's no fun out there for, for alcoholics who are still doing it. It's not fucking fun. And, and it's, and the other thing I'm really aware of is people who get a little bit of time and, um,
you know, think they can go back and try it again. And usually the results are even worse. Yeah. I find that the sober people are some of the people I'm closest to now. Really? Yeah, for sure. Especially at this age, you know, there are people that have come through something difficult. They're maintaining, you know, they're
I don't know why. I can't, I wouldn't describe it. I mean, I've been, I've been, I've got 11 years, 12 years. Oh, wow. So. Well, cause dude, there's nothing better than a sober alcoholic. Nothing. I'm sorry. Nothing. Cause let's face it. An alcoholic is hilarious, fun, ready to go. Wants to do their shit. And you take away the destruction part of it.
And we're fun people to be around. Yeah! We got to talk a little bit about my boy Matt Damon, because I know you've got to go in 10 minutes. I'm super psyched to see your movie, Instigators, because I think Matt is... Well, it's not like it's some hot take. I mean, everybody loves Matt Damon. But I think he might be our best actor. He might be...
Is he our Gene Hackman? Like I'm trying to think of what he is. He's cause he's so great in everything. And you know, I, I had the good fortune to work with him in, uh, behind the candelabra and his work in that is insane. But talented Mr. Ripley for me is that's it. That's like by the towns of Mr. Ripley might be in my top five movies of all time. And his work in that is insane. So I can only imagine what he's like in your movie.
I remember that you worked with him. That was a good cast. That was you, Matt. Who else was in that? Michael Douglas. Sort of the surrounding...
folks nikki kat bunch of people yeah matt listen he's great and i i can't believe you i'm surprised there you say a talented mr ripley because most people don't and at the time i think jude law was nominated for an award totally i mean that's meaningless but still it's at least an indication of like where the attention was going in that and partly it's because jude was jude was fantastic
but he was new. He's great. And so it got a lot of like, oh, wow, who's this guy kind of? But Matt, it's definitely one of my favorites of his too. And I say that to him a lot. By the way, I do too. And do you have that? I've mentioned it to him a bunch of times and maybe I'm making this up, but whenever I talk to Matt about Ripley, I feel like there's an energy that comes back that he's like,
I will say like, like, it's like, here's what I make up. I make up that he goes, I wish I hadn't worn the green Speedo. I think now that's now he's looking back at that green Speedo scene and he's feeling pretty good. You know what I mean? I mean, it's low, low body fat on that frame there. I'm sure he's feeling all right. Um,
He was very good looking back in the day. Still, still. But he's, yeah, I bet he is proud of that movie. And also, another one that he was so good at, I'm just blanking on the name, is another Soderbergh movie. He plays a compulsive liar. The informant. The informant. He's great. He's been great in a lot of things. I don't know if he is our Gene Hackman. I think maybe he's more like our Robert Redford. And I, because he's such a...
cerebral performer. I know that he thinks a lot about the performance. He's not coming at it from a like, "I'm just gonna do what I do." You know, he really puts in a lot of careful thought and the sort of arc of the character is designed and he's put it in the context of the film itself. How does it serve the movie? What are the what is happening for the other characters?
I've done a lot of movies with him and planned and written movies with him. And so I know that how in-depth his thinking is, how meticulous his preparation is. So I would say he's more like Redford. And he exudes a kind of decency and goodness that Redford does too. I wish that Matt would direct because he understands moviemaking so well.
And he's such a good writer. And every time I get a script, I send it to him to direct, including instigators. I sent it to him and I said, would you direct this? And like, as always, he said no.
Why does he not want to direct? What's his, what reason does he give it? Just the time? I think it was, yeah, maybe that is it. It's partly the time because he likes to work and he wants to go from one to the next. And I think he has like, he wants to do a lot of things and he thinks I don't want to be on one thing for 18 months, you know? So, um, and then also maybe, um,
maybe he's waited so long that he thinks it has to be perfect. He's never said that. And I don't mean that as a slight, but I think he's just like, he has to find something that is perfect. And I think like, man, you'll make it whatever it is that you take on. If it's, if it's the phone book or an adaptation of Flintstones, or it's something like ordinary people, you will make it great. Like you have to have faith in, in yourself. And I believe that about like,
my own choices, things that I take on, I think like it's going to be whatever's inside of me. You don't have to guess at the quality of things, you know, it's going to be whatever you decide to contribute to it and are capable of making it. And so I try to get him to direct things all the time. And he says, no, he'd be so great. I think actors make the best. I mean, you know, your brother's a great director. I mean, it's, it's, if, if you understand, if you've been paying attention,
If you've been around long enough and you're a good actor and you're smart, you're gonna be a great director. Not a good director, a great director. Yeah, and alternatively, I think that great directors probably would make good actors. I know that sounds weird, but like if your approach is,
you know human one like what is happening with this person in front of me on screen like what are they going through what should they do next right what are they afraid of what do they want if you're asking those questions as a director then you're asking the right questions as an actor and some you know kenneth lonergan is a great director he's anytime he's put himself in a movie he's been great um andrew dumb yeah sydney pollack sydney pollack uh john houston yeah chinatown
That has to be the best one ever. Another perfect movie from that era. Yeah. I mean, next time we see each other, because it's too long of a story, I'll tell you the story about how Roman Polanski and Jack Nicholson and I were going to do a movie together, and it was going to be their follow-up to Chinatown. What happened? Tell me. It became a movie that Roman directed without Jack Nicholson and without me.
And it ended up being Walter Matthau and a look, he had a lookalike. He found a, like a French model to play my part. It was a movie called pirates. And it was going to be, it was like their long gestating ginormous budget. Jack is a pirate. Mia's is like pirate assistant, whatever the fuck. And I went first time I ever got, went to Paris to screen test with Roman and
And it was, it was just a, but that's one. Okay. You talk about regrets. That would have been a great one. That would have been amazing. I mean, but it wasn't like I, I, I wanted to do it. The movie just never came together. And by the time it did, Jack had moved on and somehow Walter Matthau is a pirate is I love Walter Matthau. He's not a pirate.
But how nice that the lookalike they hired was a French model. I mean, I can tell you if someone hires a lookalike for me, it is not going to be some dashing French model. Well, but he couldn't act. I mean, how about at least if they, here's the one thing, if they're going for a Casey Affleck and they can't get Casey Affleck, the fucker is going to be able to act at least. That's where you've got me. I wouldn't be so sure.
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I'm Cindy Lauper with fellow Cosentix advocate, Chef Michelle Bernstein. We'll share our experiences with plaque psoriasis, with psoriatic arthritis, and Dr. Panico will talk about the possible connection. Cosentix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, 300 milligram dose, and adults with active psoriatic arthritis, 150 milligram dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentix. Before starting, get checked for TB.
Let me ask you something. So how long have you been doing this podcast?
I started right before COVID. Good timing. And yeah, it just blind luck. I, I love doing it. I love, I mean, this, like, this is heaven to like, I mean, when else are we going to pull up a chair? Like if we ran into each other, it'd be some big thing and people would be coming up and talking like, yeah,
this is how I get to talk to people. And it's, it's the, yeah, that seems nice. Lucky. So what is the, um, what is, is there another chapter after podcast? Well, I wrote, I wrote two books, you know, and, uh, I think if you haven't read them, I, I would love you to read them. They're super, super fun and people seem to like them a lot. Um, and it's, you know, it's all stories from, you know,
you know, the, uh, behind the curtain in Hollywood and trying to, trying to carve out a life for myself as a real human being, you know, in addition to it. And, uh, and you know, I'll, I'll, I want to be, I, I was, I was, I got to have, um, dinner with Michael Caine about two years ago. And I was like, tell me how you did it. And he said, he said, he said, well, when I, he said, when he came up, there were like three, four guys who were the guys, uh,
And he said, I'm the last one standing. And he said, and I don't mean because literally that I'm the only one alive. I said, well, what happens? Well, it's interesting. Some who are better actors got so picky that they didn't work as much and they forgot how to act. And he said, he said, and I always acted and others drank themselves to death. So the two cardinal scent things that I picked up from, from Michael Caine was, um,
Keep working, keep doing what you do, and you will be chronologically the last man standing. Interesting.
Isn't that interesting? I like the notion of people who were better actors than he got so picky that they forgot how to act. That was a mind blower for me to hear. I can imagine that happening. Also, you run up against a certain level of success, I imagine. You run up against the obstacle of everyone having opinions about you and your career and things you do. You're at a certain height, you're scared to
Take a jump, you know, take a chance. And so you just sort of freeze up. And listen, I can imagine like, look, after you won the Oscar, which by the way, you were, I was so happy for you deserve it. Like that next day, do you go now what?
No, because that year of leaving up to an Oscar, most people just see the Oscars. It's so full of every weekend is some other event or something because your movie has been successful and you have to sort of participate in the year-long promotion of it. And it's really exhausting. I mean, look, I'm very, very grateful I get to tell stories for a living, be an actor, all that stuff. And I mean it from the bottom of my heart. There's also the flip side of it that
I'm not complaining, but it was exhausting and it wasn't what I was good at or like to do, which was endless public appearances that aren't acting. You're going there and you're giving other people words or just promoting your movie, talking about yourself, doing interviews.
you know what that's all about. And so I was at the end of that year, I thought I knew what was next for me, which was like, let me just go into a quiet, dark room and lick my wounds, you know, and see who I am when I come back out again. I was in the middle of filming a movie that I wrote and directed and was starring in called Light of My Life that I was so close to my heart that I loved so much. And
I was doing that while I was, because I never thought, oh, I'll be a part of the awards season. So I was just playing the movie that I was going to go do, and I was doing it. And then on the weekends, I was having to do this stuff. So on top of it, I'm in character with this
big bushy beard and this long hair playing this guy that was living out in the woods. And then I'm surfacing on the weekends in a tuxedo to go stand in a spotlight. And I felt like I was going crazy. And I had to just go
lay down somewhere and be quiet. And I did that for a while. But I also, I was well aware that, like, my career trajectory had always been and probably always would be one of, like,
the slow lane you know it was not gonna be suddenly shoots to stardom or suddenly shoots to like you know a series of all great movies after his Oscar went it was just always considered like people are kind of like what are you doing here a little bit you know um like or patting on the back it was never like hey like the feeling that you see other people get of like wow nice to meet you it's always like good for you like you somehow leapfrogged up to the front for a minute um
And that's okay. You know, uh, I sort of got used to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and, uh, and, um, I was prepared for more of that after, um,
I won a trophy. Well, deserve it. Really deserve it. And like I said, I'm always, I know you're one of those guys that when I know you're in a movie, I know you're going to be doing something special. I mean, I really do think I really, yeah, you're going to like talk about, it's not that you paint outside the lines, like some of those guys were talking. Cause you got also that, that's like super leading man thing. I, I believe, but there's always something for me that,
unexpected and interesting in your work. And that, I love that. I love that. That's incredibly generous. Thank you, dude. And all the compliments in the world back to you and so much respect for your, your, you are Michael Caine, although 50 years younger, but you're, you're, you've got that longevity, man. And it's, I aspire to it. Thank you, brother. I will be paving the road for, for the young. And it's like you, this is great. Yeah.
Appreciate you, brother. This was so fun. I hope we run into each other soon. Likewise. Okay. Great to talk. I love talking movies with other actors like that. And I know I'm going to get along great with somebody when they've written, uh, a new movie inspired by one of my favorite movies like he did. Um,
I'm super looking forward to instigators. Anyway, thank you guys for tuning in. And there'll be more to come next week, as always, right here on Literally. And I really appreciate you guys listening. Thanks.
You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Sean Doherty, with help from associate producer Sarah Begar and research by Alyssa Growl. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Nick Liao, Adam Sachs, and Jeff Ross for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant. Sports and Media by Devin Bryant.
Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally.
Hi, I'm Cindy Lauper. My scalp was covered with psoriasis, which could lead to psoriatic arthritis, but Cosentix treats both. Cosentix Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, 300 milligram dose, and adults with active psoriatic arthritis, 150 milligram dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentix. Before starting, get checked for TB. Serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, some fatal, have occurred.
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