Bethenny Frankel: Torching the Kingdom
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I have come out on top.

made all this money, been the shining example of being successful on reality TV with all these other casualties whose lives have been destroyed. And instead of just counting my money and not pissing anybody off, I chose to, you know, shake that whole thing up and burn bridges and torch the kingdom Khaleesi style. Hey, everybody.

Thanks for listening to literally, it's me, Robbie Lowe. We've got a good one today, as usual. I think they're all good. I think all of them are good, but tonight is a good one.

Bethany Frankel is here, the OG, the legend, the reality legend, the entrepreneur, the machine. She is something else. I mean, she's kind of everywhere. She's got Forever Young Wine and her Mingled Mocktails, 10,000 iHeart Podcasts. I mean, I'm busy, but she makes me look like I'm a slacker. Let's get into it. I have so many questions for her. Let's start cranking.

Hello. Hi. How are you? I'm good. Can I be basic to start this out? Can we just have like three minutes of basicness? Hit me with the basics. Okay. So me being basic is that a couple of months ago on my podcast, I interviewed Andrew McCarthy. And like, we kind of anecdotally just talk to these people and meet these people that were so embedded in

And our child, like I have seen it, St. Elmo's fire. I'm not exaggerating easily 75 to 100 times. Oh, come on. I watched Swear on My Life about last night.

No way you know where you go. The bicycle goes. You don't understand. Like you're, you're in my life. Like you don't. So this is like, I don't want to be cavalier and just like, come on here and be like, yeah, of course I'm peers with Rob Lowe. We're both in the entertainment industry. We're both very successful, very fabulous. Like no fucking way. Like you don't understand. Like,

Literally private, I mean, private school. All I've seen, I mean, beyond. No way. So I just need to say that. Yes, 100%. But not once, like cult level fan that I've seen all the old stuff, like a lot, lot. That makes me so happy. Thank you so much. I love that. I love hearing that. And particularly those two movies, because I think they hold up. About Last Night in particular.

It holds up. Santa on the fire holds up. But yes, about last night holds up and it was so meaningful and it was so like real. And even at this age, having dated like the one night stand, what went on? You're going to call like Belushi, like,

Perkins, like all of it holds up. It's so true. So anyway, yeah. And I'm a person that will reference movies and no one will even know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I once banked two stewardesses at blah, blah, blah, a thousand feet. And you know what? I mean, no one knows what I'm talking about, but I know. And you know. I definitely know. There's so many quotable

quotable lines in that one. I feel like it was ahead of its time, but I love that people still- Yeah, all right. So I had to, that was my basic, I needed to say it. Now we can be, let's be jaded now. First of all, where are you? Are you in the East Coast? Are you- I'm in the Hamptons. Yeah, and your studio is so nice. Like, it's super impressive. I'm in a basement that I converted to be a podcast studio. It used to be like literally ISIS-

capture program and now it's a basement. I shot a movie and I think there have only been two movies shot in the Hamptons as far as I can tell. Interesting. Which? A very obscure Alan Alda Michelle Pfeiffer movie.

called Sweet Liberty. How obscure is that? It's very, but the name is familiar. It was an Alan Alda producer or just he starred in it? Starred in it. Starred in it. The couple America wanted to see, Alan Alda and Michelle Pfeiffer. And then I did a movie called Masquerade. Oh, that was here? That was all there. I mean, Lobster Roll, Montauk Highway. Yeah.

Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean, because The Affair is based here, but I bet you most of it's not shot here. But it's funny. I was impressed with at least the first season of The Affair. First of all, I loved that show. And it really felt like it was The Hamptons, at least some of it. Totally. Right? But I think, yeah, but The Horse Place might have actually been, yeah, it's very relatable and it's very authentic. Yes, it definitely captures it. The Hamptons is like Malibu where it's close to,

Where the main thing is and it's elite, but it's got all these different interesting things that most people don't talk about, like horses and farm. Potato farmers and all that. I mean, I'm kind of obsessed with movies that take place in places like Aspen would be another place where there's a whole ecosystem of people with lots of money and access who come in to a place where there's a whole other life

going on and they kind of get enmeshed for four months a year and then it's over. Do you live there full-time? I would live there full-time. By the way, it's funny that you say that because I was here full-time during the pandemic and if I

If I could, because of like custody schedules and things like that, I would live here full time. I love it. And it became more year round after 9-11. That's when it started. Then the pandemic really sealed it. And there's access to everything all year round here, meaning superficial things like manicure or cryotherapy to any kind of ingredient or place. But it's funny that you brought up

Aspen and the Hamptons because in both places, there's a very Downton Abbey high-low. So in Aspen, there's also like that ski lift operator, that local guy or girl that really is just sort of

it meshed with the wealthy. They interact a lot and they're friends and they hang out because this skier billionaire is skiing next to the lift operator. And then in Montauk, there's this whole fishermen community where it's really poor. And there are a lot of people, a lot of immigrants from Ireland and also just the locals, a lot of like people that work in ocean rescue. So you have a lot of high low where places like

Palm Beach or Nantucket, it's really, well, no, Nantucket has low too, but like places like a Palm Beach, it's all high. It's not really like two class structures. Downton Abbey is one of my favorite shows ever again. Same, same. Well, it's, you know, I mean, that world has been right forever. I mean, it's what Jane Austen made a living doing, writing about, you know, comedy of manners is the phrase. I live in Montecito and I always wanted to

write a story about what happened in Montecito when Oprah came to town. Because that like changed everything. It did, really? Oh, I mean, when Oprah came to town and then the sequel would be when the Markles came to town, as I call them.

I would imagine. Yeah. I would imagine. The prince. But then there are probably all those adjacent towns to Montecito that were never anything and now they're becoming a thing. Is that true too? Because they can't afford the main town. So now the side towns are becoming main towns. Yeah. It's amazing how people can start a whole cottage industry ecosystem, which Oprah did. And then so did Meghan and Harry when they moved in.

That's when human, like Soho House has done that. Soho House plops down in an area that's not an area and then it becomes an area. 100%. Yeah. Yes. It's Nobu, all that stuff. It's a- Yes. It's a thing.

Um, did you spend time in the Hamptons in the 80s when it was bedlam? It's very different now. I, well, I was old school. Yeah. I don't know. Do you mind if I ask how old you are? Yeah, I'm unfortunately going to, well, fortunately, because the other, you know, we all want to continue to live. I'm going to be 60 in March.

Okay, so I'm 52, but we still played in the same space, like socially, because I was young to be at these places. So the Hamptons, probably when you were coming here, we used to go to West Hampton, which was where Danceteria was. And it was, like you said, an Amazon. Danceteria. And it was partying out here and it was fun. And it was no elite. The elitism wasn't the same where like it was only...

you know, East Hampton was elite and then West Hampton is not elite now. It was just like, you got to the Hamptons and all the Hamptons were elite. Do you know- It was all, yeah. You know what ruined all of it? Bottle service.

ruined the clubs. 100% bottle service ruined the clubs. When we grew up, you went into a club and it could be anybody. It literally didn't matter who you were, what you were. I mean, granted, there was always the doorman. If you could make it past the doorman, the doorman always, they were the gatekeepers. But it wasn't this notion that if you can't afford a $10,000 table,

you're not getting in. You're so right. That killed it. That killed it. You're right because, you're right, because to the speaking to the high lows, you're right. It became an asshole sport where Steve Rubell and Ian Schrager, because I had him on my podcast and he brought up this word that I thought was amazing. And he said he was going to like,

I said to him, you should name a club, it alchemy. He said it was the alchemy of the place. So you'd have Andy Warhol and then some, you know, street dancer next to each other and politicians and Brooke Shields and Michael Jackson. And you're right. Cause it was the alchemy and you can't, alchemy isn't just only rich people sitting together that can afford Don Perignon. Yeah. It's, it's yeah. Those goddamn sparklers and everybody. Woo.

It's so gross now, but it was so fun when we were, at least when I was in that phase and Danceteria. God, I remember like it was yesterday. I mean- Where did you grow up? I grew up in Ohio.

in Dayton. And then when my parents split up, my mom moved to her, to my stepfather, who was working as a doctor in California. And I moved directly from Dayton, Ohio to Malibu. I want to talk about culture shock. Wow. Culture shock. Total culture shock. Amazing though. Yeah. That Malibu changed so much too. Malibu was, our supermarket had a hitching post for people to ride on their horses.

That's what Malibu was like. Wow. You rode your horse. Malibu was like Montauk. Montauk and Malibu, again, have similarities in that it was very local, very interesting, a lot of texture, you know, the motorcycles and like, it was just very cool. And now it's, they're both a shit show. Yeah, I bet you I wouldn't recognize Montauk. I bet you I would not. No, there's still an essence of it, but a lot would annoy you. You know, there's still, but that's life. I was talking to someone about that recently.

We're getting older, so you've been to places that you remember them in their pristine nature, like Tulum. I went 20 years ago, and I felt like it was that movie The Beach with Leonardo DiCaprio, and now it's a zoo. So everything gets ruined. So walk me through. You come to L.A. in what, the early 90s? Is that when you first—

My father lived in LA, but I had a strange relationship with him. So he lived in LA and I came when I graduated college. I didn't even walk with the class. I just wanted to get there at 92. And I had a series of jobs

from being the hostess at La Scala, which was- No way. Not something by design. Yeah, not by design, by just walking down the street, walking in. So think about what I walked into- Jesus. Knowing that that was the inventor of the chopped salad and all celebrities and writers. And like, you could get an education on the industry-

agents, producers. It was really amazing who would walk in there. So that was my- Wait, wait, wait, wait. That was a big jump. That's a book in and of itself. Why haven't you written that book? I want that book. That's a book. La Scala could be a book. It's funny because I talked to the owner, Jean Leon's daughter, about, I think it'd be a good, that's a documentary. Yeah. La Scala. Yep.

And that salad I used to get for free for lunch and I would get to ask the guy for as many toppings as I wanted. So it was like a $21 salad and I was making $8 an hour. So I was a hostess. I worked for Linda and Jerry Bruckheimer at their house. Amazing.

I worked for Lorne Michaels on the Paramount lot. You worked... How did we not cross paths? Because I was doing Wayne's World and all of those movies with Lorne when he had that office at Paramount. It was called Broadway Pictures. Yes, of course it was. And I say, because it sounds better, and I've met... I know Lorne. Yeah. I say I worked for him like...

I was some girl down the hall that like he barely knew, but I worked. I like to say that it sounds better than Barnaby Thompson. That's who you worked for? Barnaby? Yeah. And Dynamite was like always in meetings with him. So I worked for Barnaby Thompson. Yeah. We for sure had to have seen each other. I planned the Black Sheep and the Tommy Boy movie premieres. Really, the Tommy Boy went on the lot. Unbelievable. I worked for Mark Berg and Chris Blackwell.

Okay. I had no idea. We can do a book on who I worked for. Please help me with it. You worked for legends. Those people are show business legends. Every one of them. By accident. Knowing nobody. Okay, so how does that happen? Because everybody says...

you know, my son or my daughter is interested in making movies or in Hollywood. How do you get your start? You have some insight, clearly. Well, I also, I don't remember which came first, but I think it was Susan Geller who became a very big publicist. Yes. And there were two people that, there were people that worked for her that represent legends now, like Stephen Huvain, Kevin's brother, who represents Gwyneth Paltrow and Jennifer Aniston. He worked under her.

Ina, I forgot her last name. Ina, she represented Sarah Jessica Parker. Yeah. So all these people worked for Susan Geller and I got a temp job. I was talking to my assistant about temp jobs yesterday. I was living in LA. I wanted to be an actress. And I got a temp job and I worked there. And then I was just always hustling. I worked for Merv Griffin. I mean, I just always talked to everybody, hustled with everybody. And just, I don't know if I had a business card, but just like pushed.

I pushed. I just got the gig. Oh, I was a host. Sorry, I know I'm all over the place. Okay. No, this is super important for people to hear because people wonder how you get your foot in the door and relationships are the key for sure. Well, here's the thing that's unpopular because Jeffrey Katzenberg said, if you're not going to work on Sunday, don't bother. If you're not going to work on Saturday, don't bother coming in on Sunday. I think that was his line. So back in my day,

There was no Saturday. There was no Sunday. There was no five o'clock. There was no nothing. You fucking worked your ass off all the time and that's what it was. So sorry if that's not popular today. You know, there was no anything. There was no work at home. There was just like work all the time. And I was ready for it. I wanted it. I wanted to work all the time. So I was a hostess at La Scala and when Carol McDonald said to me, um,

I work for Linda and Jerry Bruckheimer, but I'm afraid to tell them I'm going out of town to Paris and they're going to freak out. I didn't tell them. I said, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll take it. I'll be there when you're gone. So I worked for her. And then in the meantime, that summer, Linda and Jerry Bruckheimer left.

They had two Malibu houses, one they lived in, one they were renting out. Steve Tisch was moving in. Jennifer Tilly was moving out. Oh, my God. So I said, oh, we'll help you get that ready. So I lived in that house in Malibu on Carbon Canyon that would be $75 million now. So that was my summer living next to David Geffen. And then David Geffen introducing me to Paul Allen and him becoming my friend and Patrick Whitesell, who...

for anyone who doesn't know, was Lauren Sanchez's husband and he runs Endeavor. And so I met those people. And Scott Stuber, who's married to Molly Sims, he was there. And like, I was always hustling, meeting everybody, just meeting everybody. And then probably it was like a lily pad. Just one job led to the other. So I was just always hustling, asking, working,

I was working for Mark Berg, who later did The Saw and who managed Charlie Sheen and produced Two and a Half Men. And I remember asking, they said, Chris Blackwell's having a party at his house. I said, I'll plan it. So I planned it. Like anybody who's willing to do it gets it. You just be willing to do it. Just jump in. I'll do it. That's how I've hired people. It doesn't matter what you do. Just do it. I tell people the same. The power of yes.

100%. I've very rarely regretted saying yes to stuff that even if you don't have experience in it, it's... By the way, people listening to this, you should Google every name that Bethany just talked about because every... Sorry, I'm getting a homework. No, no, no. Every single name

Not only is legendary, amazing people in the business, but they happen to be really good, really good old friends of mine. Stop. Oh, my God. I mean, in the Hamptons, the Hamptons movie was Meg Tilly was my co-star, Jennifer's sister. We could do a six degrees of separation of

of everything you just said. Well, you're getting proprietary content because it's funny. I take this all for granted and it's in my brain and no one knows it. Like it's a lot of interesting stuff that for some reason I'll talk about

the best tortilla chip from the supermarket, not this shit. And this is good stuff. But this is why I do the show. This is why I do it. Because it's like, you know, there's no shortage of interviews with you or me or a lot of the guests I have on here. But inevitably, the subject is like, wait, I've never heard them talk about that. Right. Right.

You know, because I am curious about you in a way that maybe other people aren't because you are so on top of it. It's, you're just a fucking machine and I love it. I love it so much. Maybe it's kindred spirits. I recognize it. Do you know? You're a machine too? I'm a machine and a hustler and I never stop. Never have, but I've always been that way.

And it's just because it's who you, you can't be who you're not. It's just who you are. It doesn't matter what, is everything, you like that with everything? Like a restaurant or we're going here? Like someone said to me, everything's a full-blown investigation. It doesn't matter what it is. It's just like who I am. Yeah, for sure. ♪

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. Okay, so you're in L.A. I can't believe you were giving Lorne his popcorn, putting it on his desk.

Mm-hmm. Um, Diana. God, that Burnaby. Amazing. Um, and you're auditioning as an actor as well? Yes? No? Kind of? You know, it's truthful because you're an actor. This is an interesting conversation I also have never talked about. So, um...

I don't even know if I was good or would have been good. I was also a PA on Saved by the Bell. We'll get into that another time. Amazing. Because I met the senior vice president of NBC Productions on a flight that I was accidentally, I was late and I was bumped into first class from my coach seat because I was the last person on the plane. And Todd Levitt, the senior vice president, and I talked to him the whole way. And he's like, I never talked to anybody on planes. And by the time I landed, I had a job on Saved by the Bell. Wow.

So, cause I was always hustling like you. So, um,

I didn't have security and confidence in acting. I didn't, and I took acting classes and I did take improv classes, which I did have some confidence in. The only acting that ever appealed to me was Meisner because you kind of threw it all away and just had to like react honestly to the person talking to you versus like having a preconceived notion or feeling your feelings from when you were a child and you stubbed your toe. Yeah, yeah. And you're supposed to access that 50 years later. Like, I don't understand that. So the Meisner technique,

and also the yes and of Groundlings that spoke to me because it's very honest and in the moment. But I don't think that I had, I didn't have confidence in acting because I didn't understand it. Like it was in my head about it. And I remember saying all these years ago, I wish I could just do something that was just being me. And even hosting isn't just being you. It's kind of being even more canned than being what I thought an actor was for me. So I couldn't find my space.

But I would go on these auditions that I would, I did the things I was supposed to do. You got the right headshots from the place by 7-Eleven on Larrabee and paid all that money I didn't have. You remember names like no other person I've ever talked to. It's like you remember the name of the street. You remember the number? It's like the detail is kind of amazing. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah, there's a place like over by, you know what I'm talking about, like by Barney's Beanery and they have like the headshot place that was supposed to be good. So I got the right headshots and would send it out like on mass. There were these books you could look at or look at backstage that magazine. And like, I just never knew what I was doing, but I always knew what I was doing in every other area of my life. I just felt so mass. And I also felt so

I was embarrassed to say that I was being an actress while being a hostess. It just felt so degrading the minute you got it out. And like, you just knew that no one was taking you seriously. So like, you can't be an actor if you're not fully an actor and like fully admitting and like being and living in. So I was in between two worlds. I was like sort of actor light. I just, it just, I just couldn't get it. I couldn't, I didn't know how to, what to do it. And I wasn't like

in some compelling way where, respectfully, you were gorgeous. It is what it is. You could debate it and it just is not. It's like H2O is water and Rob Lowe is stunning. So like you were going to walk in and be like, this kid, he doesn't even speak. He doesn't have a tongue. It doesn't matter. Look at him. I wasn't that, you know, I had like frizzy hair and like was at some weight that's acceptable today. It wasn't acceptable then. So it was just like, it wasn't like you were going to just be like, I mean, if you met, if you, my personality, yeah, but you walked in there with like,

sides and said something and it just, I never probably did it right. And I just, I was like a lukewarm non-actor who never really acted. So that just didn't hit. Lukewarm non-actor who never, it's my favorite phrase so far because it makes perfect sense. I, so, but you're so much, you've got so much personality, but that's the thing, you realize your superpower is you.

Exactly. What am I going to do? Like act like somebody else? Exactly. That's what I'm saying. So it was, it just doesn't make any sense. No, for sure. It's like a giraffe trying to be a dog. Like, what am I doing? I'm good as a giraffe. Yeah, no, your superpower is who you are naturally, not playing somebody else. Cause I mean- I knew that, but I didn't have, there was no reality TV. There was no place to be that.

Isn't that amazing? Because even stand-up isn't that. I've done stand-up. I tried it because I thought it was that. It's not that either. That's a different thing. So the world of reality, it's interesting. As we're talking, we're going through a strike. Writers are on strike. Actors are on strike. And every time there's a strike in the business, there is an unintended consequence. Something goes away, never to return again. And or something arrives,

that's never been here before, never to go away. And one of the last writer strikes we had brought in reality TV because you didn't need writers. And that's the whole reason it came in. And lo and behold, you know, it's now kind of taken over in a way that nobody could have foreseen before.

I wonder in this strike, what's going to happen, what the unintended consequences are going to be. But you're at the right place at the right time. Reality TV comes in. How do you find your way in? How do you end up in it? Like, what's the process?

Well, the truth is I didn't really understand it. I didn't watch it. I heard people talking about these people on this show selling lemonade in a competition, sort of scavenger hunt style is the way it was described. And that was on the Donald Trump Apprentice when it first started. I am not, I don't know how to videotape myself. I don't know how to do that kind of thing. But I said that I'd be amazing on that. And this kid said,

You're not going to get on that show. And I said to him, you mark my words, I'll get on that show. Because it was about like getting ahead and being an entrepreneur and like winning this competition. And so I wanted to do that. But I wanted to do that because I wanted to get the job because I wanted to be something and like just go somewhere and rise up in something. And I didn't have really, I didn't really, I didn't have family. I didn't have any nest egg. So I just wanted to like do it.

And it was adjacent to, or a cousin to the acting being noted for something thing. Yep. So I went through that process a couple of brutal times to get myself eventually on the Martha Stewart list.

apprentice. And when I tell you that the process in that and what it did to me and how badly I wanted it and how I admitted that I wanted it and how everybody else was not admitting they wanted it, they were acting like they were plucked from obscurity, but it was not true because it was like a 250 page contract and like so much competition, but I wanted it. And I was the runner up

And then I just wanted to be a natural food chef. Like I, cause I wanted the job from Martha Stewart. I wanted to be, I like wanted, I had big goals of being a natural food chef and democratizing health. And so I then, once that happened, I was using it as like a dry sponge to get liquid out of it and get press about being a natural food chef, natural food chef. That's all I wanted to do was be on TV cooking.

So when the housewives, which wasn't the housewives, it was called Manhattan Moms, came and someone pitched me on it, I didn't really bite that. I didn't want it that badly because it seemed like a train wreck with people getting drunk on television, which is exactly what it became. And I sold a liquor company as a result, ironically. So I kept saying no. And then one day I said, you know what? It's not that easy to get on television. If this thing bombs, no one will ever see it.

And if it pops off, who knows what could happen? I had no idea what could happen. Like not, I tell you how on top of things I am and how like hustler, I had not, I did not call this. I had no idea what this thing could be, but I gave it my all in being myself. And I dropped being the chef, meaning being on the forefront because I just was honestly, authentically myself on the show. And it did pay off. And I became me. It's unbelievable. It's an unbelievable story.

It really is. It's crazy. It's a crazy story. And I got paid $7,250 the first season, but crossed out the part that said that I would have to give them a piece of my business if I created something, even though I had no ideas and no business. I knew to cut that out. You did it. That became the Bethany Clause, which they ended up putting into everybody else's contract, saying that they had to give a piece upstairs if they ever created a business because of my Forbes cover saying,

because of my skinny girl deal. So it's a circular reference and it's even more circular in this strike right now because now I have...

come out on top, made all this money, been the shining example of being successful on reality TV with all these other casualties whose lives have been destroyed. And instead of just counting my money and not pissing anybody off, I chose to, you know, shake that whole thing up and burn bridges and torch the kingdom Khaleesi style.

Well, that's now we're getting to the thing I've been dying to talk to you about. So you've come out and said a number of things, not the least of which is that there should be a union that you guys should be in a union, reality performers, because of, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but tell me if I'm getting this right. Like, well, that's one of the things, right? There should it be.

If you could make it all happen immediately, would it be a separate union? Would you guys be in the Screen Actors Guild? Why do reality performers need a union? By the way, I do know why, but I want to hear you answer it. So, no, yeah, I know. But what's funny is I don't like to take credit for like being

this like a crazy activist. Like even with my relief work, we literally have done $300 million worldwide. It just started with me seeing something and saying something. And like all of a sudden you take one step in front of the next step and then you're doing relief all over the world. Like it's not like I was like, we need,

need relief to be different and 100% to the people and we're sick of the rubber chicken dinners and the Beyonce. Not Beyonce did anything wrong. I just mean big events where you hire Beyonce and have pamphlets and where's the money going and the old version of philanthropy. I didn't plan that. It's just like I did one thing and then I did another thing. So this is the same thing. I didn't have any plan whatsoever. I was literally thinking about the strike. I just said something on, I think it was TikTok or Instagram. I'm like, wait a second.

What the hell is going on? We need a union. Not meaning me. I'm not even doing it anymore. Right. No, I know. That genre needs a union because those people aren't even reading other people's words. They're taking such risks by it being their own voice. And right now during this strike, they're going to be the ones that everybody goes to for cheap labor and exploiting them. And they're not going to be compensated. And there were so many parallels there.

with the streamers and with the memes and the gifts and like my content that I got paid $7,250 from 15 years ago is, is I go to Australia and my entire body is on the back of buses. I didn't know that. I didn't even know what, hey, you, H-A-Y-U. And I used to be excited. My back,

heck of buses. Yay. Hey, you. And I'm like, wait a second. Hey, you. Hey, me. I'm not being paid for this. So everything you guys are going through, I realized by accident. So I said it and it got picked up everywhere. And I wasn't going to be the anything of this. Like, so then I doubled down. And then I mentioned that this girl who had an affair on a reality show and was the most hated person on television. And it like, we broke the internet.

And I didn't even see the show, but I mentioned her as an anecdotal example. So her team reached out to me. And a couple of weeks ago, I went to number one in the world on my podcast because I interviewed her only because I mentioned her in the name. And now I'm like the face of this thing. So SAG-AFTRA reached out to me to fully put their whole body weight behind me. I didn't go out, reach out to them. They were like, we're fully behind you. And then now they realize all these

faulty contract practices and third-party production companies being used as these shields so you can improperly pay talent and pretend they're not employees. So like nothing in the reality space

is treated in the same way that traditional work. So someone drinks nine bottles of vodka, falls off the wagon as an alcoholic. If in normal workplace, corporate workplace, that happens, supervisors are called. In reality, TV cameras rush in. So someone has heroin in their desk. The first thought is cameras. Then they've got to run up some flagpole and pretend they care. A woman is mounted with a naked man

on below deck in Australia. Cameras are rolling, shooting the naked man on top of her. Later, the guy gets fired, but that's not thought of. The first thing that's thought of isn't like, is the content. So it's the upside down. Everything that's not correct from racism to being a sexual victim to all these things are glorified. I did not realize the length of this because I was the shining example. I was the rainmaker. I'm not exploited. Of course, I have all the power because I rate.

But all these other people that are little like disposable casualties from people in production to people that are talent, I have now come forward to me because of saying that. So all these people came forward

So one time these two lawyers came forward to Brian Friedman and Mark Garagos. Mark Garagos is a big class action guy. Brian Friedman has represented monster cases. They came, they don't represent me. I'm not the one who's been wronged, but they came like I'm sort of the Aaron Brockovich with all these other people that they are now representing.

So I'm getting all the hate for being the person who bit the hand that fed me from Bravo because I'm suing Bravo, which I'm not, but I'm not blind too. And now I'm hearing all these issues from people, a lot of people that have been wronged and it's not looking great for Bravo right now. And they are on full defense and under siege because that show that they are protecting, which is that realm that Vanderpump Rules show that that girl came on my podcast is their shining jewel that made millions of dollars for,

while there are some sketchy practices. So that whole... Separately... Sorry. No, no, no. That whole... Everything that you're describing makes perfect sense to me. I've...

you know, I understand that. I didn't even answer your question. I'm sorry. I'm going to answer your question after. No, no, no. But you're giving me the context for doing all of it. And go ahead and answer it because then I want to ask you about Vanderpump Rules. So I'm sorry. It's a lot. You're ringing out a lot, which is great. You're a great interviewer because this is a lot of stuff. So...

So I said that thing. So on a parallel, I say that thing about just a thing. I'm like on a boat just saying like, oh, we should have a union. No thought in it. Just like internal, normal, like free association of thought. No editing. Just like, here we go. All these people start reaching out. Oh my God, somebody finally spoke up. You could probably do this. That's one thing happening over here. And then all these people are talking about their violations. These two lawyers come in and start representing those people.

The second thing that happens is that girl reaches out, her team reaches out, and we're putting her on my podcast, which became sort of a shining marquee example of this. Even though she's not liked and even though she was the mistress, it doesn't mean that her being emotionally abused on TV was correct and that she doesn't have rights as a human being. That's a second thing. But immediately after I say that, I then come back with like a set of points, right?

that are a jumping off point, being a person that negotiates for a living, saying these are things that I think are fair 10 points that people should receive. Because I knew that I wasn't going to be able to start a union in a night. So in the meantime, there should be this modification of language that goes into contracts. Because for three decades, there's been no principal, no governor, no one in charge of this whole group.

So at least in these contracts, the Bethany clause should be removed. You should not be taking a piece of these people's money. There's a certain amount that you should put for original content that they should have a minimum wage per season and per episode. And then repurposed, you know, reused content later on streamers. It was literally like a jumping off point of, you know, 10 principles that would go into a contract. And they actually were pretty good. Like,

heads of agencies said they were good. Lawyers said they were good. And they were also off the cuff, but I do a lot of contracts. So the only reason I contacted those lawyers is because I wanted someone to ask for these networks to respond to those 10 points. They wouldn't just raise their hand and be like, hey, Bethany, there's what we think. No one wants to pay anybody. So then, and then SAG-AFTRA reached out to me

And while we're talking about a union and what that would look like, they also want to know in the short term what they could do to help. And I was saying there should be some language, some contract language that goes into these contracts that everybody in reality knows to include. Like they can't just exploit people with these unrealistic NDAs

that now the networks are, that now Bravo and NBC is saying are only designed so people don't reveal storylines. It's just simply not true. The NDAs are scare tactics and intimidation language for these young people that just want to be on TV and want to be famous. They'll sign anything. So they're being exploited as a result. So it's a very complicated thing I walked myself into whilst also burning bridges and seeming like I'm biting the hand that

fed me, but I fed myself. There are a lot of people who didn't get fed. Give me an example of... Because the NDA thing is interesting because to me, as an outsider, I go, yeah, that makes sense. It's an NDA, so you don't go out and say who won American Idol or... Yeah. You know what I mean? I agree. Or... Yeah. But...

But you see, there's a different side of it. Give me, what's the nightmare version of the NDA that they ask you to sign? Well, by the way, now all of a sudden everybody's so cute and they don't know how to be creative with language. Why can't that be called content confidentiality? I'm making that up right now. That can be called content slash storyline confidentiality and that you don't reveal anything that goes on, et cetera. But there's separate language that you can't sue and there's separate in the moment language that happens between legal and confidentiality.

PR and a talent that says, if you tell anybody about this thing that happened, we're going to sue you for $500,000. And I remember signing the apprentice contract. And I remember the producer saying, don't even bother

debating or disputing any of this language because Mark Burnett is not the type of person that sits back. If you ever sue him, he will go head to head with you and he will sue you and you'll never, like, you just are intimidated. You just know that you are lucky to walk in there and get the gig and you are poor and you are nobody. It's not like I have selective memory. I remember I wanted it. And so that's the thing. So does that mean that

Someone in an office that a Harvey Weinstein type can grab your ass because you wanted the job, because you wanted it so bad. You took the part, so now they can say nice tits. Like there's gotta be still a line. It's still like, I wanted it. I wanted the gig. I was broke.

I wanted the fame. I wanted the gig. I wanted the money. I wanted it all. Does that mean you can just do whatever you want to me and the contract can say whatever you want? That's what they've been living by. They can lie. They can pretend. But as a person who's been on more reality television than anyone who could speak on this topic, and that's what's the most scary about me because I'm not disgruntled. I wasn't fired. I was asked back multiple times. I made millions of dollars. I left twice. So I am allowed to speak on this. For sure. ♪♪

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Qualifying plan required. Wi-Fi were available on select U.S. airlines. Deposit and Hilton Honors membership required for 15% discount terms and conditions apply. And what is the feedback from your former partners, from Andy Cohen's of the world, the Bravos of the world? How do they feel about this new chapter of your life? It's a very confusing time for me because I walk, I run into people like,

People that are all on the top, like, 25 list of most powerful in Hollywood. I mean, not even, like, actors. Like, the people that are, like, more powerful than the actors. Sure. Like, in Hollywood. And they're like, you fucking go. And many of them make money off of these entities and these companies. And they all are like, go. I run into Donny Deutch in the Hamptons. He's like, keep doing what you're doing. And I'm like,

Oh, and then I run into Hillary McLaughlin who produced Ellen and who produced my talk and who's like, go. Like, so people that I respect in the industry that I think I'm going to see them in the street and they'll be like, what the fuck are you doing? How dumb are you? What are you doing? And none of them do that. But I can tell you

with great certainty that everyone at Bravo likely despises me, including Andy Cohen, because it's very personal and because they have to protect the realm. So it's confusing. Like over at Fox, where I just did a show with,

with David Spade, they think I'm great and they'd love for me to work with them and Gordon Ramsay, you know, and other places. But I would, I don't know what they think about me at the Today Show, where I usually go to promote things because they are run by NBC, but it's news. I don't know what they think about me over on ABC. Like it's, it's a weird thing where,

It's cutting personal, but anybody in a macro power position in this industry knows that I'm right. Anybody in the media knows that I'm right, but it's like it's cutting personal for specific people. So I'm confused where I don't know the temperature with everybody. Does that make any sense? Yeah, no. So it's very unsettling. It's also the thing that there seems to be a...

There are different brands of reality and some are just feel more exploitive than others. You know what I mean? There are some shows that are, here's a hot mess train wreck show. Like that's the ad. It's like, you know what you're getting. And those are probably, that's probably where all the shenanigans are going on is, you know, you want a hot mess, you got to do, you know, you have to,

create an atmosphere for that to ferment and happen. And that, to me, feels like the area where you're going to see that as opposed to deadliest catch. Well, it's confusing, too, because if you go to the corner and you want to shut down a prostitution ring, the women, because one woman gets abused and beaten up,

She may want to go back there. And does that make it right that she's getting abused and beaten up? Like, so the problem is that there are many people who are casualties of this medium and they've been discarded. They can't get jobs. They've been abused. They've been discriminated against. The production too, they're even lower on, you know, the ladder. And so they're the ones who are coming out because they thought it was going to be interesting and fun and fame seemed great.

And so many of the people that are even still experiencing this or have experienced it now, it's obviously, it's at a lull in a way because everybody's on alert and scared. And even you notice a difference on Watch What Happens Live with Andy's show where the questions are different, the polls are different, the gotcha is different. Everyone's a little bit nervous because it's a time when it should be a gold rush to your point about the strike, but it's also a time when this reality reckoning, as I call it, that I started is making everybody accountable. And so-

I'm not popular with certain people. And also many people that are currently on these shows are reaching out to me over here, but they're scared to speak up, not only because of their NDAs, but also because this is the only place they can make a living and they still want that hit. So they don't know. They're like, this isn't right. And I wasn't treated right. And this is what I saw, but I don't want my name there because I also, I'm still making money over here. So it's very confusing. It makes sense because I-

I feel like there's sort of, there are people who love reality and watch it and get it. And then there are the people who maybe don't have the kind of experience in watching it. And they kind of go, the way I feel about WWE, whatever world, the wrestling, where I'm like, it's fake, right? I mean, it's fake. But what you're telling me is if somebody has an affair...

and is drunk or whatever, like, no, it's actually happening. Because I look at it from a distance and go, oh, come on now. There's a camera there and everybody's doing their shit and somebody wants to pop and grab a headline. But it's... It's both. Here's what it is. So if I'm at pick up and drop off for my daughter's school and someone's shirt is unattractive, I'm not just going to be like, that's a fucking ugly shirt.

But on reality TV, I am because this person has signed up to participate in this thing that we're doing, which is to create a show and create a storyline. Yes. But furthermore, on reality TV, I don't,

I'm not friends with the people that I am paired with that have been specifically designed and cast for this purpose. Right. Because there's a whiteboard in an office and a bunch of producers that need the right dynamic and to bring back Ian Schrager, the right alchemy. Yep. Because someone's going to really, someone is a bleeding heart liberal and someone voted for Trump. And-

doesn't believe in abortion. So they're going to put those two people intentionally on the show, no different than even on The Apprentice, because that's going to be a rub, and that's why you're seeing more outlandish things. So it is real in the interaction between the two people, but it is not real in the fact that the two people would never normally be spending time together. And everything is like a chia pet, just add water. So you're

you're out, you're shooting, there are cameras everywhere. And it just, your adrenaline's going, your nerves are up. A lot of people take anti-anxiety medication that never did before. People start doing drugs that never did before. And it seems like a great idea to have a drink and many drinks because it accentuates things. And it seems like a great idea to wear hair and makeup and get dressed in a way you don't normally get dressed because you're also on TV. So it's all times 10. So it's real-

But it's not real. Then you also are living it out in the press, whatever the conflict was. Then you go back the next season, you hate this person because of whatever the conflict was. So there have been people that I have had struggles with on reality television. And some of it's because they might just not be a good player on the field. So I'm pushing them out of the way. They then hate me. But in normal life, in a normal cocktail party, I might be like,

Fine. Jane's fine. Hi, Jane. Nice to see you. Look beautiful. And they keep it moving. It's just very different and very intense. So by that measure, it's not real, but it is. It's really happening. And there is a lot of editing, but it's not a real circumstance. Right. They're never they're never going to completely falsify it in editing. They're going to enhance it.

It's the crystallization of a blind date that lasted six hours, and then you just get the best highlights that you tell someone when the person threw up on their dress. Like, it's not every nuance that happened, but it's a week of filming, and it's 40 minutes. So like anything you've ever shot, except for...

you're shooting the same scenes and it's just, they take the best ones. It's not really like that. It's like, you're just fishing for a week and then you bring the big fish home. So yeah. And in some cases though, there are things that are more heavily produced. They're not all one size fits all. The Hills used to get rewards for,

Like, they would give out Hermes Birkins, Heidi and Spencer said, if he threw her out of the car, which they're still married. And he was like, I would never throw a girl out of the car. But, like, they're sort of playing a hybrid role. So every show is a little bit different and every character is a little bit different and every producer is different. So a producer could hate someone and edit them badly and then love someone else. Like, it's Fifty Shades of Grey. It's a good movie.

It's kind of what you're describing as the wild, wild west, like all of the guidelines that exist in traditional legacy show business. There aren't. And kind of it's like whatever the traffic will allow in reality. Well, and there's if a person if a person has an emotional break, you see something that is wrong, that is sort of part of story. And then all of a sudden you see the actual break happening.

The cameras come in closer and the cameras don't take that person out the next week and send them somewhere. The producers want to shoot that more because that's good. That's why I'm saying it's the upside down. So like if in the NFL, someone has a broken leg or a sprained ankle, you're not like putting them into the Super Bowl. Right. But the reunion is the Super Bowl and you're saying, put them in coach. Yeah. Doesn't matter if they have a broken leg. That's even, that's going to be even better TV. That's the truth. And what do you say to the people say, well, that's what they signed up for.

That's what they all say. And so then this is what I say. I say, if you put the person who has an emotional breakdown in to the Super Bowl, you know, or you put them back into the, then at the very least, they should be compensated when it ends up on some streamer they never heard of 15 years from now that they didn't know there was going to be a streamer. The word streamer didn't exist.

So I would say, you know, some people have a nervous breakdown on this show that they wanted the fame and they didn't know what it meant. And by the way, there are actors, you know, that didn't know what the fame game would bring either. And they have a nervous breakdown. Okay. But it's being used as content still, the nervous breakdown in Australia. So shouldn't that person be paid something just like an actor? I guess that's initially the crux of what I said. Right. That's to simplify it down to one thing.

It feels like it's that and some sort of, not policing, but some sort of way to deal with the traumas that happen on the set.

Well, to your point, does a young kid know that a sprained ankle, when he's like, I can go at him, 24, I can... And then he hurts himself for the rest of his life. So does a person who wants fame so badly and they're so excited and the producers are telling everybody everything's a good idea because it's always a zero-sum game. Someone's always winning and someone's always losing. The producers tell both parties equally that they're doing a great job. So this person doesn't know that by, you know...

jumping naked on another person, which is good content that could ruin the rest of their life. Like, or the person being that slutty, that's not slutty, that's wasted, wasted drinking 17 drinks that they're going to do something they might regret for the rest of their life. Where's the line? At work, that's not acceptable. At work, the person down the hall, if at the Christmas party, the corporate public company Christmas party, someone drinks 12 drinks, they're going to be told,

to a supervisor, get them home. This is a liability. Yes. That's not done on, so there's no line. There's just no governor. There hasn't been because no one's ever gotten in trouble because of these faulty contracts. That. That's my opinion. That's a fact. That's not even my opinion. That's a fact. This has been amazing. I knew we'd spend a lot of time on it because it's so great. When did you start your podcast?

Just be. I started my podcast, I'm the worst at time, a couple of years ago. It feels like maybe like two, three years ago. I don't even remember because there's so many different podcasts within the podcast. But I started Just Be a couple of years ago.

Yeah, during the pandemic. So we're like at the beginning of the pandemic. And then rewives and rants and this just be unfluence, which is about like marketing and branding subsequently. You're a machine. You've also got the Forever Young Wine and the Mingled Mocktails. Do you, okay, you got to do something for me. I don't drink. I need you to create a line for me.

I have it right here. Mingle Mocktails. Oh, it's a mocktail. It's a mocktail, of course. It's amazing. No, they're amazing because they're ready to drink. Mocktail has 50 to 60 calories. And...

It tastes alternative. So it's not like you're drinking fruit juice. It tastes like you're drinking something, like you're drinking a cocktail. But you can mix it with alcohol, which you don't. But it also feels like a nice hydrating drink. It's fun. It's great. You'll love it. I'll send it to you. How do you do the taste testing when you're coming up with what you want? When you first started the line, how many different flavors did you launch with? Well, to be perfectly honest, I was...

I've become this accidental influencer online, I mean, on social media, just screwing around with all these products. So I wanted to get into this space because I think it's an amazing space. I was first with my skinny girl. I invented a category, low calorie cocktails, but this is a space I wanted to get into. And I just wanted to try some things. So I tasted this and I loved it and I reviewed it and thought it was amazing. And the owner-

reached out to me and I said, I want to own a piece of your company and I'll take you to the next level. So I didn't, I'm not the founder. It's a female founder. I, and I did that with, I've done that now. This is a part of my business that no one knows about where like I'm investors in different things. I'm an investor in different things that no one even realizes like this venture capital life, like cameo, that thing where you give the videos to people. I was in a series A and series B investor and cashed out at like, you know, 20 X, I think it is. And so

The Bay Area Soccer, Women's Soccer League, same thing. Like they wanted me to get involved and then I put in money. So there are some things that I put in money, like this company that I own a big piece of now. So I'm doing things differently in business wise than before. That's amazing. It's a long way from Lorne Michaels' Popcorn and Lyndon, Jerry. I mean, that's the book. I mean, again, you've written a lot of great books, but I want the book of...

La Scala of the very, very, very beginnings of it. Because I think it would be great. I know, but I don't want to write anymore. I'd rather do like a documentary. Maybe you'll produce it. Well, do the documentary because you must get it. You get people coming up and going, how do I do it? How do I get in? How do I get my foot in the door? And the answer is always the same. Just do it.

It's like, you know, the Nike thing. Just say yes. But I feel selfish that I don't know anything about you now. At some point, and I know you're busy, maybe you'll come on my podcast because I'd like to know about you. I feel like selfish, but this is, I guess, an interview with me. Yeah, this is... But I don't know anything about you now. You're the star here. You're the star. You're the person who's doing the talking. Well, what are you working on now? How often do you do this podcast? And what other...

TV are you doing? So, I do this podcast every Thursday as a new episode. We're, I think we've done almost, we're closing in on 200 episodes, I think. Wow. Yeah. I have a show, a comedy on Netflix.

that I do with my son. Oh, I saw that. I love that. It's laugh out loud, straight in your face, really funny comedy called Unstable. We start season two as soon as the strike is over. And then I go right into season... And you're neurotic. Yeah, I'm out of my mind. It's a great character. Yeah, I love it. Super larger than life. It's a great character. Yeah. And then season five now of 9-1-1 Lone Star, right? With Ryan Murphy on Fox, which... I love Ryan. Yeah. And...

And then, you know, gosh, there's all kinds, then all kinds of other stuff, you know. But I love that you're working with your son because that reminds, because Andrew McCarthy did that project with his son when he took that walk. And I thought that was interesting. The book. Like I thought that was a great way to bond with your child in a different way. Did Andrew tell you about the documentary he's doing on the Brat Pack?

Yes, he did. And I was freaking out. And it was funny that everybody wanted him to be the one to do it. From your perspective, why is he the one to do it? I know it's so funny because I, for years I've been toying with

is there something to be done with the Brat Pack? And at the end of the day, I just, I thought, I was like, I don't know, man. Because it's the housewives to you. And now you're trying to lean into it and like celebrate it instead of like think it's like, it was a bad thing he was telling me. Like it wasn't fun. That was what you were called. Yeah. And some people had, I probably had the least hard time with it than,

Because I was famous before it, was famous after it. So I had a different experience with it maybe than some of the folks who had never been famous before. And like, that's how they popped. Your first was Outsiders? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Sick. What an iconic thing. Oh, thank you. It's a good one to have because... I was also madly in love with Matt Dillon. I must have him on my podcast. It's too much. Have Matt. Like, oh my God. You don't understand. Like, I loved you. I died for Andrew McCarthy, but I was in a box for Matt Dillon. Like...

That, oh my God, I could do like marry, fuck or kill. I was, you do not understand. Like I was so obsessed with Matt Dillon that I would cry. Like you do, I thought like Westchester, he was discovered, they said, like at lunchtime. Yeah, he's a Long Island guy. Oh my God.

Wasn't he, no, wasn't he Westchester? Was it Memoro? Yeah, that's upstate. Don't fuck around, please. It was Westchester. I remember the movie, The Bodyguard he was in. That's right, you know. I was obsessed. So I must, this will be the trifecta. Nobody was hotter than Matt in Outsiders. Oh my God.

Yeah, totally. The three of you, wow. The St. Christopher's, you know, come on, his leather jacket, his brown leather jacket with black shirt. Come on, man. He was- Because he was so bad. He was so, yeah, you were like, yeah, you were- Sweet. Your St. Elmo's fire character was pretty-

like iconic to who you are. Like, cause you still had an edge to you, but you were pretty like, you know, Matt was all edge and Andrew McCarthy was all boyish charm. Like the three of you could be like a menu. Like the three of you should be studied together for like a scientific man put together as one. I can't even, James Spader too, throw him in too for like the quirky alternative guy. Like,

Put you guys together as a science experiment and make one man out of you. I would say James Spader is the quiet freak. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but I like that too. I like a weird alternative. Yeah, sure. Has a dark side. I like that too. It's a different, yeah, totally. The four of you, insane. Okay, so when I come on your podcast, I'll do this same conversation, but the female version.

Amazing. All right. I'm so excited. Yay. Yeah, no, I'm doing it. We're on. It's a date. It's a date. You and I have a date with destiny. Fantastic. This was great. Thank you. Thank you. This was amazing. You're the best. Wow. That's a lot of energy. That woman is, I thought I had energy. I'm ready to run through a wall after talking to her. She's got me pumped and I love it. Hope you guys loved it.

All right, just one more thing before we end today's episode. Let's check the lowdown line. Hello, you've reached literally in our lowdown line where you can get the lowdown on all things about me, Rob Lowe. 323-570-4551. So have at it. Here's the beep. Hi, Rob. This is McKenna from Salt Lake City, Utah. I obviously love your podcast and...

Especially love your new show, Unstable. And I was just wondering, I know you take your presentation of yourself very seriously in your hair. And I noticed how impeccable the...

costuming is on Unstable, especially Sean Clifford's character. I'm obsessed with everything she wears and she's such a class act. And I was wondering who is the costume set designer and did you have a hand in picking that person? And are you super picky about your clothes on camera? That's my question. Thanks, Rob. Bye.

Our costumer, thank you, by the way, for that compliment. Our costumer on Unstable is Leslie Schilling. And I hired her because I loved her work on Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is, you know, a really interesting show to design because it's supposed to be Larry David's real life, but it also is very much not Larry David's real life. And that's a hard target to hit. And she understands comedy, right?

And yeah, no, I, I, I, I, the look that we came up with, with Leslie, she and I for, for, for my character, I'm really happy with. We're about to start season two and, you know, it's that thing. Everybody has a uniform and actors have a uniform and like you go, okay, dresses like an actor, rock stars, just like rock stars, you know, frat bros, just like frat bros, you

you know, like finance guys kind of have a uniform and Silicon Valley on the spectrum, geniuses very much have their own kind of uniform. And I think she did a great job of helping me capture that. And yeah, wardrobe is really, really important when you're coming up with a character to grounding that character, to bringing it to life. And sometimes...

Wardrobe is the very first thing that I need to get the character into my head. And it's certainly that way on Unstable. Thank you for watching that show. And thank you for listening to Literally. Hey, we're going to be back next Thursday. We're not going anywhere. We've got more fun to come. So hopefully you'll be joining us again. And I will see you next time on Literally Unstable.

You've been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe, produced by me, Nick Liao. With help from associate producer Sarah Begar. Research by Alyssa Grawl. Editing by Jerron Ferguson. Engineering and mixing by Rich Garcia. Our executive producers are Rob Lowe for Low Profile, Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and myself for Team Coco, and Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking by Deirdre Dodd. Music by Devin Bryant. Special thanks to Hidden City Studios.

Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time on Literally with Rob Lowe. All set for your flight? Yep. I've got everything I need. Eye mask, neck pillow, T-Mobile, headphones. Wait, T-Mobile? You bet. Free in-flight Wi-Fi. 15% off all Hilton brands. I'll never go anywhere without T-Mobile. Same goes for my water bottle, chewing gum, nail clippers. Okay, I'm going to leave you to it. Find out how you can experience travel better at T-Mobile.com slash travel.

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