Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hello everyone. What a special and amazing and wonderful day that we are going to, we are about to experience here on the Jan Arden program. It's a program now I've decided to change from show, a variety hour and podcast. I'm now calling it the Jan Arden program. And it's so much more than me, Jan. It's Adam Karsh in his basement in Toronto, Ontario. Yep.
And once again, coming back to us, we're so thrilled. Adam and I are just so thrilled. Caitlin Green has returned. Caitlin. Hi. Hi. I leave for just a few weeks and you guys switched from a show to a program. Caitlin, it's been a long time. We're so happy to have you back. And obviously, uh,
I there's a lot to talk about today. There's there's a lot to talk about a lot of really sensitive content. And I just want to put that out to our listeners that we're going to be talking about mortality. We're going to be talking about sadness today, stress, you know, anxiety, depression.
And if those are triggers for you, I just want to put that out before us because I don't want to surprise anybody. Adam and Caitlin and I don't want to do that. So Caitlin, I'm going to hand it over to you because I don't know even how to begin to start your story. Everyone's very aware of your pregnancy. And I'm just going to hand it over to you, Caitlin Green, and let you walk us through
how your life, you and Kyle's lives have been so changed this past several months.
Good on you for the trigger warning, which is something I feel like I'm going to have to do. I'm going to have to wrap my head around doing more often now when we talk about kind of what's going on, because so many people have experienced the same thing, the same like pregnancy and infant loss, obviously, that we've now experienced. But I didn't know that. I mean, you don't know about these things really until you kind of go through it. And I think that's why.
I have been keen to talk about this a little bit because I do think that there are resources that other parents don't maybe necessarily know are out there. There's a lot of, I don't want to say stigma, but it makes people so profoundly sad and so uncomfortable when you talk about any kind of loss, especially the loss of a child, especially a baby pregnancy, that people don't know how to deal with it. So they don't talk about it.
And, um, it, I think that's, that's hard and it can set some people back in their processing of what's happened. So yeah, as a, I mean, what happened for us was we, uh, I had a really, as you guys know, and as all of our listeners know, who heard me talk
about the pregnancy on the podcast. We had a wonderful, healthy pregnancy. Our son, Sam was extremely healthy. And then, you know, I was 41 weeks. So I was a week overdue. And honestly, the weekend that he was set to be in, I was set to be induced. I just started noticing a little bit of decreased movement, which is kind of a, it's,
It's a, it can be a warning sign, but it can be nothing at all. A lot of people say, you know, they notice some decreased movement and then they go on to have healthy births, but also it is something we should pay attention to. And there's some language that happens around, oh, the baby slows down before they arrive and all that stuff.
And statistically speaking, that's kind of false. So that is something I do think I want to, you know, let people know about that. If you, you know, if you are pregnant, you notice reduced movement. It's definitely something to pay attention to. And lots of doctors will tell you that. So we went in early. I went into triage. We got checked out. Things seemed fine. Everything was going okay. And then,
And then we just thought at a certain point in the labor that, you know, his movement was still not kind of coming back where they wanted it to. So they were like, let's just, you know, call this and try for a C-section. And after, you know, obviously he was born, we realized something had gone quite wrong. And what had happened was something called a fetal maternal hemorrhage.
And, um, and that's ultimately was, you know, was fatal for our son. And, um, you know, I won't, I won't get into the nitty gritty on a lot of that stuff, but I think it would be hard for a lot of people to listen to, but, um, yeah.
I think what we've kind of realized is how many, like I said, how many other people have gone through similar experiences and how helpful it's been for us to talk about it and how amazing, how fortunate we've been to have this amazing support system through the hospital that we were treated at, which is Mount Sinai here in Toronto, the therapist that we were connected with right away, the group therapy that we've been receiving, the
And so many listeners from the radio show that I work on, the morning show on CHUM and our podcast listeners, so many people just the outpouring of support and from you, Jan, and you, Adam, and everyone at CHUM, it's just been, it's incredible because it is such a, it's such a profound, terrible and shocking loss because you just never see this coming when you have what you believe to be a healthy pregnancy. And there are marks
along every pregnancy where you know, you know, you want to make it to that 12 week and then you have a 20 week scan. And we really thought like, you know, I had every part of my nursery set up. Like you really think you're in the clear. And while it is statistically uncommon that, you know, this late loss happens, I have learned it's not like,
it's not like it doesn't happen at the same time. It does happen. I never thought it would happen to me, but it's just something that you have to try to process as best you can. And now you realize when a loss like this happens, like the sun comes up every day, you know, even though you've gone through this, you still have to piece together your life and try to make sense of things and heal. So I'm thankful for the support that we've had because they have been, they've been really good. How...
were those first few days. I guess it's just a blur. I remember waiting to hear from you because it was a Saturday and on Sunday, you know, as you do, I kept checking Instagram. I kept looking for that quintessential photograph of weight and time and things like that. And it wasn't coming. And I,
I have to say, I had a very ominous feeling and I hadn't heard anything from you and it had been well into the probably 40 hour mark, which, you know, seemed not right. So,
Yeah, we, it was, you know, those first weeks are hard because you have to make phone calls. You have to tell people because just like, you know, you're waiting, lots of people are obviously. And, and I think other people in our group therapy have called it the quote unquote black hole the first few weeks afterwards. And that's crazy.
completely true because you it's it is kind of a blur and you don't really know how you're getting up and doing the things that you're doing like sometimes you'd be in the shower and you're like how am I showering or you'd you'd make a decision about what to eat and you're like I don't know how I did that and it's it's that simple stuff like you really are reduced to the most basic things and
And then it's a build from there. And I think for everybody, that build looks different. And so for us, you know, our in-laws were staying with us. My husband's family came in to stay with us, which was really helpful. And yeah, the first day is like, I mean, I was in the hospital for
I guess it was almost two days in the end because, you know, there's, I had to recover from C-section. They give you the all clear. And they did kind of, they were, they were, they were careful, but they knew I didn't want to stay like this. You know, I don't want to stay. They're careful to move you to another part of the hospital. Um,
they were really gracious in terms of allowing visitors. That was not happening, right? So imagine all this stuff is happening. It's also happening during COVID, right? When you would lean on support and when all of a sudden getting support, there's this barrier to getting support now because of COVID. So there were things like that to contend with as well. But I think you quickly figure out where your body's kind of autopilot is and
And, you know, my autopilot, thankfully turned out to be pretty good. And so I could manage difficult decisions. You know, you have to figure out what you're, you know, what you're going to do. Like you have a lot of medical things you have to figure out too around, not just me and my recovery, but for, for our son, Sam. So there's still stuff you have to do, which seems, which seems cruel and unfair. But there's like logistical things that have to get done as well. So, yeah.
Yeah, the first little while was really just horrible. I mean, I listened to like so many podcasts and so many read so many books and so much stuff on grief. And there was a there's a comedian who I love named Rob Delaney, and he lost his three year old son to brain cancer. And he was on their most recent episode of This American Life. It was a I don't know, it was called Good Grief. That's the title of the podcast if anyone wants to look it up. But he's talking about
losing his son and how he feels like the shock of it is, is, is very, it's huge because he said, you feel like you've seen Martians landing on your front lawn to experience that. Like you feel like you've been to the moon and then you come, you have to come back to earth. It is otherworldly. Yeah. Plus the fact that we live in a culture, Caitlin, that
any really logical talk of mortality. You know, you bring up, you know, have you done your will yet? You know, did you, did you make out your will? Oh, I, yeah, that's too weird. I don't want to do a will because you know, that could actually lead to me dying is if I do the will.
So there's a lot of like, you're smiling at me. I can see you on Zoom. Yeah. But it's so true. So our language, our discussion around death in our culture makes this profoundly a lot harder because I think you must have experienced the, and we talked about this a little bit before we went to air, people don't know what to say. Mm-hmm.
They don't. And they think that something that they say could make you, you know, more upset, which I would tell reassure people, nothing you say in this circumstance is going to make me more upset than the loss of our son. So like, that's kind of impossible. So, you know,
don't worry about that as much. But I think it's so, it is, you come when you, I found that when we experienced the loss and when this happened, we were coming at it from this deficit of understanding of grief and loss and how to process things like this because you avoid it and you avoid it until you have to deal with it, which I think makes a ton of sense. I mean, who is rushing to look into death and loss if they don't have to, because it's, it is truly so profoundly sad and
But it's, it's, you learn that the happy things in life, the joy runs right alongside all the sad stuff. And so it's, it's, they're kind of connected. You can't really separate them. So now that I know that and know it, and I felt it, you look at it differently. So I think, and you know, Jan, you had had so many
thoughtful, insightful things to say afterwards when we spoke and caught up about how it's just, you know, grief is the byproduct of love. I think you said grief with love with no place to go or something to that effect. Yeah, I can't even remember, but it is...
You have to love someone profoundly to be able to grieve. Don't go away. We have so much to talk about. Our beloved Caitlin Green is back with us. We're talking about some hard things, but we're talking about some important things. We'll be right back. This is the Jan Arden Program. ♪
Welcome back. Welcome back, everyone, to the Jan Arden Podcast Show Program. Caitlin Green is back with us. And Caitlin and Adam and I had been doing this show for, gosh, a year. And Caitlin shared much of her pregnancy with all of you listeners along the way. We had, you know, lots of joy and lots of laughter there.
And as Caitlin said in our first segment, you know, talking about what really for all accounts and purposes was a very normal, healthy pregnancy. And so if you're just joining us now, we are talking about infant mortality. We are talking about dying. We're talking about
A lot of joy and a lot of uncovering of beautiful strengths and how grief really has changed and affected human life so much. Because as Caitlin was talking about just before the break, grief shared is grief lessened. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is. And it's, it's so it's incredible to see how many people will reach out. If they only knew me from listening to the podcast and the show to talk about their shared experiences and to make me aware of their loss and how maybe they coped or
things that help them tools that they use. And also just to say, Hey, you know, I'm five years post-loss myself and I'm still, I'm still here. I'm still doing as best I can. I'm working, you know, for some people, maybe they've said, Hey, I've gone on to have other, you know, living children. And so there are, you know, people really do want to bolster you. And it means a lot, I think, to hear from people who've been kind of where you've been, because, you know, as I mentioned in the last break, that it's,
like going to the moon of grief and then having to come back down to earth and still kind of live your life, which you do. Like it's, it's the world doesn't stop turning just because you've gone through something like this and you have to piece things back together again, as best you can. How do you think we can make it easier for each other or somehow change the, that all important endless conversation that,
about loss because like I said we we have somehow compartmentalized it and put it away on this shelf that it's just it's just whispered in hushed tones oh did you hear did you hear about Caitlin and you know and Kyle and they and it's just kind of a weird how do we how do we bring it to
into some an acceptable part of our daily routine. I know that's not quite what I wanted to say, but does it always have to be shoved away until it happens? And then we're all ill prepared to deal with it. I don't think so. And, you know, maybe some people will will disagree with me, but I think making it OK to talk about it is important.
is valuable because it does happen and it is going to touch people. Loss is going to touch you, whether or not it's the loss of a child, parent, grandparent, friend, whatever the case may be. You are going to be touched by loss at some point in your life. So I do think it's a good thing to talk about because it will help people process it and not make it feel like this, you know,
monster in a room more than it naturally is. It already is going to be in a certain way, but it's, it is part of everyone's human experience and you can see people go on to lead a successful life after a serious loss. And that can happen. And I think part of it too is also reaching out and knowing the supports that are in place. So getting help, if you want it from, I found group therapy incredibly valuable for us.
knowing about authors and podcasts and individual therapists and all that kind of stuff. And it even makes me think of the conversation that has changed in, you know, recently around mental health, because that was one of those things that wasn't talked about people who were struggling emotionally. They didn't want to talk about it. They didn't want to, you know, burden other people with their problems, or maybe they were embarrassed. There was a stigma to an extent to talk about it.
And it's funny, Jan, that you had mentioned one of the, like, you don't want to talk about it some ways. I think there's some superstition or magical thinking around it. But if you talk about it, you're kind of like inviting it into your life. It's weird.
It is weird. And I had definitely had that. And I still have that. I was, you know, I'm a knock on wood person. I have superstitions. So I think dismantling part of that and, and trying to not give that kind of like this power over you when it doesn't exist and it doesn't make sense is also helpful because it will help you get back on track. And yeah, and we've been going through a little bit of,
a little bit, we just started, but cognitive behavioral therapy. And so it takes really painful traumatic moments and you try to look at them from a different angle. And yeah, I think that's really helpful. And how are you going to know that all these resources are out there if you don't ever talk about them?
So that's kind of why I wanted to talk about what we've been through, because if somebody, you know, say they search grief on podcasts and a lot of people look this kind of thing up when they're thrust into it. I mean, I spent days on the computer looking through stories of other people's, you know, late loss and infant loss stories.
And you hope that if they come to find other resources and other people who've gone through these experiences, it would be helpful for them because the black hole the first few weeks afterwards are so terrible. You have no idea what you're doing. You've been dragged, kicking and screaming into this club that you never want to join. But I think it's important to know that there are people there who've been through it and want to help and actually have resources for you. The brain is quite an incredible thing in how it copes with incredible loss and
with trauma. I mean, call it what you will. And I think we have to be very careful to never look at people, human beings, different kinds of experience with loss and measure who's worse than the other guy. Oh, you think that's bad? Well, this is bad. When it comes to loss,
Across the board, there is a fairness. And I think we really have to understand that. And I think a lot of people don't come forward with painful things because they feel like, Oh God, my ours wasn't that bad because look at, look at what, what they went through. So they suffer silently because they don't feel like their pain is worthy of note. They don't feel like theirs is, well, there's kids in Syria, you know, that war torn, like those comparisons are,
Comparing yourself to anyone, to any other experience would be a terrible loss and a shame. And don't ever feel like you're doing that. I hope our listeners never feel like they are unworthy of sharing their pain and their loss. Nothing is too small.
Yeah, I agree with that. And it's funny because I saw an author who really helped me. Her name is Dr. Edith Eager. And she's an Auschwitz survivor. She's a 93 year old, you know, psychiatrist now. She's very, very renowned. And the book of hers that I read is called The Gift.
and it's talking about resilience. I think resilience is a really useful tool and something great to focus on when you've gone through anything. Building resilience, building resilience in your mind is so important. It's such a great skill, whether you're coming back from a loss or a divorce or a job loss or anything. All of your experiences, all of your losses, everything you've been through that's
negative in your life is going to, you know, build resilience inside of you. And so she talked a lot about that, but she being that she's gone through, you know, she went through a Nazi death camp crying a lot. And she said, you know, something that she encountered was that people would always approach her and say like, well, I can't complain about my loss because of what you've been through.
You've been through something that's so much worse. That's what I mean. That's exactly what I mean. And she was like saying, you know, put that away because you can't compare any, you can't compare your loss to somebody else's. And it's actually a connection point. Even if whatever you're viewing is, is something that on a scale and imaginary scale of grief is being not as bad. It can still be a connection point for you with another human being, which is meaningful.
And she talks kind of about the superpower of grief, about getting through it, about using it to talk to others and creating empathy, becoming more empathetic through what you've experienced, which has definitely happened to me. So there's lots. As much as it's a horrible thing and you don't look at, I don't recommend going through it. I just mean there are things to take from it.
there are things to learn from it. And that's, if you have to try to find something to take away from it, that's one of the things. Human life is difficult. And I think for whatever reason,
the Gen Z's or the millennials. There's so many different groups out there. I can't keep, I don't even know what I'm part of. I know I'm a Panther now. I know I'm not a cougar anymore. I know. Yes, Caitlin, I'm in Panther territory. But for some reason, a hardship to many of the people living in the world presently
It's having only one tick on your Wi-Fi. Oh my God, how many ticks are you getting? And that's a hardship. So I think the blessing of COVID, you guys, has been that we've been given just a little bit of glimpse into COVID.
That kind of resilience. Well, yeah, you have to stay in for six months. Yeah, you can't go to the movies with your friends. Yeah, you can't see her. And for some reason, I feel like it has been an important step forward in our humanity. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast show program. I'm with Caitlin Green, Adam Karsh. We'll be right back. Don't miss this show.
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Welcome back to the Jan Arden Show podcast. Adam Karsh. Caitlin Green is back with us. If you've just joined us, a little bit of just a forewarning. If mortality triggers you in any way, grief, pain, sorrow, dying, we just want to caution you. We're talking about the loss of Caitlin's
Infant son, Sam, a number of months back. If you've been following along with our podcast, you know that we followed Caitlin and Kyle's journey for nine months from the beginning and to, of course, the very unpredicted, tragic outcome of Caitlin's pregnancy. We were talking on the break about the importance of crying and expressing crying. I think a lot of us have learned that.
through some weird, once again, these social stigmas to suppress, put away, choke back, you know, be a man, don't cry. I mean, we're given these this weird language all the time about expressing tears and crying. Yeah, I think it's because we get so we're so uncomfortable with that vulnerability.
I think it embarrasses some people. I think they don't know what to do with it. I definitely feel that, you know, for men, there's a different societal expectation around crying. I hope a lot of that's changing. I'll tell you when you have no say in the matter, which is what happened to my husband and I and our family and friends, when you don't have a say, you're like, well, I'm just going to be crying for the next X number of weeks. And for the rest of my life at points, I will just...
be, I'll just be tearful. I think that you get really comfortable with it. And again, we talk about like the, you know, the superpowers that come out of grief. If having no shame in crying is one of them, I definitely have that. And it doesn't make me uncomfortable either when other people cry at all now. Like it would have made me uncomfortable previously to see other people cry. I would have felt like I needed to do something to make them stop, which
Which would be my first instinct, like, oh my gosh, try to make them laugh. Try to make them feel better. Try to make it stop. And now I'm like, nope, nope. I have no desire to make somebody stop crying. If you feel like crying, you can go right ahead and cry. There's a lot of science behind crying too, right?
like emotional tears. And we all know that we feel better when we cry. And of course, like anything else, there's hormonal, there's a science behind it. There's something called manganese, manganese, that it's something that tightens muscles and it heightens tension. But when you cry, you release a lot of that. So, you know, when you go into...
Crying sort of stimulates something that they call the parasympathetic nervous system, and it restores your body to a state of balance. And that is science. So when you've had, I felt, oh, I felt better after a good cry.
And I think it's okay to a lot of people feel funny. Well, the person that it's actually experienced the grief, like you and Kyle, your, your parents, your friends, you know, people that have been really close to that, that flame. And those of us in the periphery,
I mean, I balled my head off. Adam balled his head off. And I caught myself feeling like, don't you dare cry. You know, you have no right to cry, Jan. But, you know, when I talked to Adam, Adam and I were on this call and we just cried. And I didn't...
And I sort of let that weird freaking idea go of, I don't deserve it. You know, this is Caitlin. I got to be strong for Caitlin. That kind of language has got to be disassembled because to stand with somebody in solidarity. And like I just mentioned, what happens to our bodies is that we are given a reprieve of sorts and your body will keep doing it until it doesn't have to.
It's so true because sometimes when I, when I cry, it's like a smaller one or I'll have the days where it just comes like it's, you know, people talk about grief coming in waves and some of the waves knock you off your feet. It takes a while to get back up again. Others are smaller. So, and I can almost like feel it when one's coming and you know, I'll know that a bad, like a quote unquote bad day is coming and I'll have longer cries and it just turns on like a faucet and it turns off when your body has kind of gotten that out of its system. Yeah. And yeah,
It knows what you need. It knows what you need. It's true. And, you know, everyone does in a way have to reevaluate our version or what we think of as strong. And if you think that crying is a sign of weakness, I would counter that some of the strongest people I've seen in helping us get through what we've been through, some of the strongest people who've been through more than, you know, you could ever imagine being crying.
through that we've encountered from learning about loss and in group therapy, they cry. And I think they're stronger than people who bottle it in personally. I think that it's a sign of strength to be able to kind of own your emotions. Vulnerability, vulnerability is such a show of strength to show people who you are.
And to show people actually authentically how you feel. Yeah, not making up a story that seems to suit. Oh, I better not show my real feelings. That's when people start getting really unwell. Yeah, I agree. And again, I've referenced her already, but her name is Dr. Edith Eager. And she's written books on grief and loss. And she does say, you know, what you hold in will make you sick. Right.
Like it will eventually make you, you, you, you will have physical side effects, whether that's migraines and headaches or shoulder tension or TMJ or worse. But you will experience physical side effects from holding in your emotions. And again, like our loss has been so again, shocking and profound that I didn't, I felt like I didn't have a say in it. I was like, you know what, this is just where I'm at.
So I can't hold it in. It's impossible. But people do hold on to a lot of things that I think would be healthy for them to be able to talk about and get out. And, you know, it is, again, it's a human connection point. When I see somebody else cry over the loss of our son, Sam, when I'm crying about it, it doesn't make me feel worse. It doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. It makes me feel better. I feel like, okay, you get it. And lots of people will say things like, you know, I can't imagine.
And I, I usually try to take a minute and go, but I bet you can. Cause if you're getting, if your eyes are watering up right now and you feel emotional, I bet you are imagining it and you know how terrible it is. And thank you for doing that because that's an empathetic act. You're trying to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see where they're coming from. And that is just a cornerstone of coexisting on the same planet with people. It is. It's such a shared experience.
It makes human life worth living. Yeah. This is a shared experience. Your load is your heavy load is my heavy load. And, and we see that all the time when we see people helping each other in times of disaster, it always takes a disaster, Caitlin, right? To see a community come together, Adam, I don't want to miss this opportunity in this show to talk a little bit in this last part of the segment about you and your wife and
You guys experienced infertility, a lot of loss for five years. And that's what I'm talking about, the degrees of loss. It was very difficult for you. You have two daughters now, but it wasn't easy to get to that point. We had a five-year infertility journey. And I know loss. I know disappointment. Miscarriages failed in vitro. We went to multiple clinics. I think we did in vitro.
Six times. We had different clinics that we went to in Toronto. We had different, we went to Denver. There's a clinic in Denver and nobody could get us pregnant. We thought we weren't going to get pregnant. Then we found a surrogate.
I'll end the story off on a positive note. We found a surrogate. We were a month away from using this surrogate. And then my wife, Risa, got pregnant naturally. I had no idea about this. We had to cancel the surrogate. Sorry, we don't need you. And the rest is history.
Wow. So yeah, so make sure when you're measuring that loss, and I'm sure Caitlin, you don't look at, at Adam and his wife and go, Oh, you know, it's not as bad as us. I think we have, you know, once again, once again, we have to take that out of, you know, how we speak to each other and how we measure human life. Oh, he has it so easy.
We make these unilateral decisions almost on an immediate basis. When you see some guy on a yacht, having a glass of Prosecco, honestly, and I feel like I'm repeating this, echoing it out into a universe that's heard it a billion times. You do not know what another person is going through. Money is money does not keep loss at bay. It doesn't keep you from suffering. It doesn't. Sometimes I think it even complicates things, you know, but, um,
Well, I had no idea about Adam's experience at all, really. Again, until we know I went through the loss of Sam and then he told me. And again, like outside looking in, you might think I'm like, oh, Adam has two beautiful children. Well,
I would never know that he'd experienced anything similarly. And that's why I do want to talk about this because I want people who are going through experiences in their life that are dark moments and hard to say, like, you know, you can, you can come back from that and you can move forward, whatever your life looks like, looks like afterwards. Cause I would have had no idea about Adam's story. It's so important to share. Exactly. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast and what a special show. Caitlin Green is with us. Adam Karsh will be right back.
Keep smiling, keep shining. You can always count on the bus show. That's what friends are for. Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast Show. Caitlin Green is with us after an absence. She left. Once again, if you're just joining us, a few little trigger warnings. We are talking about infant mortality today, grief, loss, death.
And a lot of learning, a lot of life lessons. Caitlin, you were saying something so interesting about when you ask someone, oh, hey, do you have kids? Are you thinking of having kids? That there is a sharp edge on the other side of that. I think that people need to be able to, can you speak to that?
I think we've been more aware of this certainly in recent years, that that is a question that is not simple conversation. It can be a very emotional triggering question for people. And so if you ask a, it's a complicated question. And so if you ask that question, you do have to be prepared for the wide range of answers, the emotions that could bring up in the person that you're asking this. And I say this from a place of somebody who did used to ask those types of questions, but
And when I hit my, you know, quote unquote, you know, years where people started to ask me that because I was married and I realized that the decision to have children was not necessarily going to be a fast and easy one for me. I went back and forth on whether or not we wanted to have a family. And so I realized how complicated the question was. And then I started knowing, you know, friends and family members who suffered losses and had difficulty conceiving. And, you know, like Adam, you know, I'm sure that question came up for you and your wife
all the time and people don't know what they're asking. And, and, you know, you see people walking down the street with two kids and you don't realize that they've suffered three, four losses before that. You don't know what they've been through because it's not publicly shared. And I just think people have to be more mindful of how complicated that is, how, how, how it can be the highest highs for people when they have their children and the lowest lows when they experience any kind of loss.
or difficulty conceiving. So it's a tough issue. It doesn't mean that you have to avoid it. I just think it means you have to be aware that it's not simple just because it was simple for you. And just because the world has painted this like one dimensional view of, you know, you go into a hospital, a bunch of stuff happens, the store arrives and then you leave it. That's not what happens at all.
all at all at all. And any doctor or nurse that works in labor and delivery or in obstetrics and in neonatal care, they're very aware of this. So I do think it's a service, Adam, like you talking about your story, me talking about mine. I think it's helpful for other people to realize how complicated this is. It is. How do you think you guys will go forward? Is it still a very day-to-day thing?
let's just wake up and deal with the day. Is there, I mean, obviously you'll be healing your entire life and you will also celebrate your son, Sam's life. Always, always, always. And you and I and Adam have talked about that whole idea of groups of souls traveling together. I know, and I'm not a religious person at all. I'm not part of any affiliation of organized religion, but I, if the arts and music has taught me anything, I,
It's that coincidence isn't coincident at all, that the length of a life is not up to us. You know, it's such a profoundly magical universe. I don't even know, it's theology and science crashing in midair and Sam's time here on the planet and that he chose to come through you and Kyle and be here and spend that experience with you. I think there's so much here.
I wish we could see all the answers and see all the whys, but you, and I hope I'm not like being presumptuous, but you shared such a magical story with me about another, another,
person that passed in your family. Yeah. My, my uncle. Are you willing to share that? Cause I, it really touched me and it's really stayed with me. Yeah. Cause there, you know, like you said, there's a lot of stuff that's just science and it's just, it's just odds. It's just luck. It is random. Cross the T's dot the I's. Right. Like it's statistics, right? This was a fluke. This was a fluke accident that happened. You know, there's, there's part of it where you want to believe it's a better place and it's magical. And then there's a
solid huge portion of my brain that thinks, no, this is cells. This is, this is just what happens sometimes. Consciousness and, and.
But there are other parts. It's everything, like you said, it's everything all at once because my uncle, so my grandmother, she had eight children and her firstborn son, John, had a heart disorder. And so he was flown to Toronto to have heart surgery when I believe he was around four years old and he didn't make it. He didn't survive the surgery. And he passed away on the exact same day as Sam.
I just couldn't, that gave me chills when you told me. And we've talked about, you know, like we, in the family, they refer to him as like, you know, the angel John and all that stuff. And that's kind of how we refer to Sam and everything. And there are all these weird phenomenons that I know there are, there is logic to account for this, like seeing, seeing sequential numbers, like 1111 and 444 and all that stuff. I started noticing all that stuff. This is
second I became pregnant, I just noticed a ton of it. And I'm not into those things. Usually. I know that once you start looking for something, you will find it again. So again, I, I counter everything with it.
There is, there's some magic and there's some science and it's kind of everything all at once. So I think you go forward with those types of things in mind where I view the magical stuff and I take the magical stuff with me as it serves me and as it makes me feel better and as it increases your connection to other people and to our son, Sam, that stuff, like I'll take as much as I need. Once it gets into the kind of the like, maybe the damaging parts of it, which there are as well, that's when I'm like, I don't need that.
I don't want it. That's when I go right back to science. Because when we talk about the possibility of maybe having more, having another child, having a living child, when we talk about that, that's when the science comes in real handy. Because they can say, statistically speaking, what happened to me once, I'm at no greater risk of it happening
again to me, because it happened once, it is the equivalent of your tire blowing up on the 401. They don't know why it happens. It just does. It is random. It is unfair. It is cruel. But it doesn't mean that it's going to be I'm at an increased risk of it happening again. So I equal I love science. I love it. That's why we have that fundraiser that we started for Sam following his passing. Yeah, talk talk about that and and just share with people how they can help.
So if you go to the, there's a link in my bio on my Instagram account, which is Caitlin green with three E's because there are so many Caitlin greens. I had to add an E and if you find me on Twitter, it's Katie C I T I E green. And the link is in my bio as well. This is a funders are set up for in support of Mount Sinai hospitals, um,
women and infants health program. And it's in Sam's honor. And what it'll do now is it's at $37,000, which first of all, thank you to anyone who's donated any amount. It's over 400. It's, it is incredible. It's over 400 individual donations. This is a substantial amount of money and it's, it's such a substantial amount of money now that, um,
we will be able to fund a research project in Sam's name. And so we get, you know, these, these amazing doctors and researchers who dedicate their entire life to helping advance the birth outcomes for children and for women, and to make sure that we have a
many healthy pregnancies and healthy babies as we can. I think that their work is so important and I've seen it firsthand now and I know how valuable it is. So that's where this money goes. So it'll be awarded to a research project in that field. They will give us a bunch of options on where we want the money to go and we'll decide and it'll be, I'm so thankful for it.
Absolutely incredible. And once again, you can click on to Caitlin's profile link if people don't understand what that is on Instagram, write up where their names are. I've had so many people ask me, what do you mean by clicking on that? So I think if you actually Googled like Caitlin Green's son or Sam Green bought her truck, I honestly think you'll find it'll be a quick and easy Google result too.
It has been such a journey. And like you said, so unexpected. There's things that blindside us and it literally could not be more real and true what blindside means that you just have no... And it must have happened all so quickly. Yeah.
on the day I I doubt very much you're probably looking around the room going what what's happening what what's going on and you're on drugs and you're trying to process things and you're you hope it's okay but you start to get that feeling it won't be and the waiting to find out is this as bad as I think it is and yes it is and all that stuff it is true it is really hard um
And that's kind of the trauma, those specific memories, those days that we're working through with our therapist right now. And that's why I think if you've been through a traumatic event like that, finding that great therapist and those great group therapies, it's just, it's so helpful. I can't state it enough. If
You're going through anything traumatic in your life, reaching out and getting professional help will help you process it. Where can people start to look, Caitlin? What, what do you suggest? Cause it is the computer. What, what would they Google? Like, where do you start? We started with pale. So it's a parent and infant loss network. P A I L. Yeah. Yeah. Like a pale, like a sandpail. And so, you know, you can start there and you can go through your hospital network. If you are in Toronto, like Sinai, Sunnybrook, they have incredible programs there.
There's like a palliative care network here or it's a house called Emily's house. I believe there are lots of networks for you. And talk to your GP, start somewhere. It might take a while to connect with a therapist that you really feel close to that works for you. But start doing that when you're ready because there's meaningful help for you.
Caitlin, I can't thank you enough for sharing your story, for being so vulnerable with us and Adam, right back at you. I mean, I'm so proud of you guys and I love you guys. And I love you guys. And you're stuck with me for the duration. And my mother used to say the best is yet to come and good things come from bad things.
And I believe that to be true. And, and we'll always all think about Sam. Thank you for that. Always, always. There's, there's just not, I'll, I'll always think of him. So we're so glad to have you back. We look forward to happy days for you where we can, you know, always just have our virtual arms around you from here, but lots of good things to come. Everybody keep getting vaccinated and,
We're inching towards actually being able to help each other in person. Yes. You've been listening to the Jan Arden program because I'm retitled it. Thank you so much to Caitlin. Thank you so much to Adam. Thank you guys. Totally do. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.