Holly Fortier and A Tale of Two Canoes
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Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jan Arden Show and Podcast. I'm Jan Arden. I'm coming to you live, somewhat live from Springbank, Alberta. It's raining. Hooray, hooray. Sarah Burke is with me once again this week. She is in her Toronto dwelling. How are you doing, Sarah? I'm good. I think we'll call it Takaronto today. We're going to have a conversation about Indigenous History Month today, and Indigenous people refer to this land as

as Tecarronto. Yes, and it is Indigenous History Month. This is what we're going to do on this episode today. We're going to learn about Indigenous culture, tradition, and experience. Yes. With... Yes, we have a special guest signed up. A friend...

Holly Fortier that I went to high school with. And on top of that, this week is Indigenous Peoples Day, which is, you know, a day that sort of revolves around summer solstice. This is not just for Indigenous people. It's for you and I too. And we're going to learn more about that from your friend. I'm so glad you invited her. On the show today, I'm unbelievably excited to have

A conversation with Holly Fortier from Fort McKay, First Nations, Alberta. Hello, Holly. Thank you. Welcome, welcome, welcome. Oh my gosh. I'm so honored to be here, friend. Thank you for making space for me. I'm just thrilled to be here with you. Her business, Nisto Consulting, is all about Indigenous awareness training, which she has been doing since 2007 for thousands and thousands of people, including first responders,

educators, government, and a whole lot of other people that need to hear Holly's work and message. She also recently launched a new film and television company called Two Canoes Media, and her work is dedicated to her mom, who survived residential school as a child.

I have seen the short film that Holly made with her mom, and I'm telling you, it is a must-see, and we will make sure that we have all the information on the podcast so that you can go after this conversation and click onto that to see Holly and to meet her mama. Holly has made it her mission to encourage a relationship of respect, understanding, tolerance,

All those things that we've been talking about for so many years that we don't seem to really understand because we're busy living our little convenient lives. That understanding between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Canadians and people all over this globe. Holly Fortier, welcome. Let's just start right at the very beginning for me. I want to touch on high school a little bit. We went to Springbank Community High School. There wasn't a lot of kids in our school.

And I feel like I had a pretty good experience. You know, I hear people talk about high school and just how overwhelmed they were because they went to school with like a thousand kids, 1200 kids. And I'm like, what?

I think when I graduated in 1980, are you younger than me? I think I'm one year older. One year older. Well, you look 14 years younger. Let me just say that. There was 42 kids. How many kids did you guys have in your class? I forget. But the reason I went to Springbank was because I was going to a city school and it was just so overwhelming for me. And I was, you know, wanting to finish high school.

of course. And so that's why I moved out with my brother in Springbank. And so I lived with my brother on a ranch, kind of neighboring to yours, place out there. But it was such a fun experience. Like, you know, kids would go to school in rubber boots. Like we were, they were like country kids. There'd be a gopher once in a while that would, you know, come into the school. Yeah.

True to that. You'd see it skirting down the hallway. I was thinking about you, like, I was thinking, what do I remember about Jan in high school? And you were, like, so cute with your little bob. And you were always smiling, making people laugh, of course. And I was thinking, remember we had the arena attached to the high school? There was a hockey arena. The smoke room in between the high school and the arena. We had a smoking room in high school. We had a smoking room. So the students had a place to smoke. Yeah.

And then we'd go into the arena. And I remember going in there, we would sit in the stands and sing because it was really good sound in there. And I don't know, there was somebody left a hockey bag in there one time. So we put you in the hockey bag and we were dragging you around there. Do you remember that? Yes, I do.

They zipped me in a hockey bag and they pushed me around on the ice. I mean, I was laughing madly. I was. It was not a sinister bullying thing. I voluntarily was like, okay, I'll get in there. And they zipped me up and off we went. But I think that anybody that would remember you would be like,

You were full of fun, making everybody cry laughing. Like, I just adore you for that. Well, you were so filled with grace. I always just loved how you carried yourself. And I remember this vividly. And I was talking to Teresa de Crom about you. Love her. A few days ago, because I told her you were going to be a guest on the show. And she goes, Holly, her memories are so much like mine. Grace, wisdom, love.

You were so good to everybody. You just made your way through the world with a real sense of pride and belonging. I don't know how else to explain it. You just were nonjudgmental. You took people at face value seriously.

And you were a little bit intimidating, I think, in that way because you had a quiet strength. And we'll talk about why that is. That's just how I felt at 15, 16 years old. I'm glad you remember that because I don't remember that of me. But thank you for sharing that. Yeah. And I mean, maybe we should go back and talk about

your family and your mom and where, you know, your roots that are so firmly embedded in this country, in this land, in this province, in this area that we live in and your mom's story. Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to, um,

off with a land acknowledgement because please, it's always proper protocol whenever we start off a meeting. And like Sarah had mentioned that I have two businesses. I do indigenous awareness training and I'm a film producer. So the Arctic winter games came to me and said, would you do a land acknowledgement video that we're going to show at the opening ceremonies, the closing ceremonies, every event. So cool. So I did some research around what does a land acknowledgement mean to us? Like what is a land acknowledgement?

And it's really where Canadians say where we live, work and play is traditional territory. Now, traditional territory is very important because I have done traditional land use mapping where we actually take the eldest, oldest people in the communities out to the land and we go, show us where you were, where

Where do you travel, where you camped, where you were, and we back it up with science, archaeology, anthropology. We even take documentation from missionaries, explorers, RCMP, and it can take 30 years to map out traditional territory. So all of Canada is traditional territory for the first people.

All of it. And most of it's overlapping. So, Jan, where you and I are today, we are on the traditional territory of the Blackfoot people, the Sotena and the Stony Nakoda. So we're really thankful that we get to share these lands today.

these beautiful lands. And so I would love to acknowledge our traditional territory. I am from Fort McKay First Nation, which are Cree and Dene and Métis. We share our territory with those groups. There's six Métis communities, six French,

First Nation groups. And so we have a beautiful territory up there. We're actually one of Canada's 634 First Nations, just north of Fort McMurray. So I got in late last night. I spent a couple of weeks on the reserve and I just love going into our community. And here in Toronto...

I just want to acknowledge I'm on the traditional territory of many nations, including the Mississaugas of the Credit, the Anishinaabeg, the Chippewa, the Haudenosaunee, and the Wendat peoples. And it's now the home to many diverse nations, including First Nations, Inuit, and Métis peoples. It really is amazing, the history, and as you mentioned, the anthropology, the science behind the movement of the First People. And

You said something that really strikes such a chord in me, Holly, which is I have 14 acres very close to Satina, like the Bride Creek area. And every day I remind myself that I am a warden and a caretaker of this land and of these trees and that they're not mine and that there's no ownership here. Like I'm very conscious of that. And I have so much respect

gratitude to wake up every morning and look out at these trees because of what's happening in our world, the use of the land, cities ever expanding. It's heartbreaking to watch this area being inundated with construction. I mean, over the years, it bothers me. And I wonder how you feel about that. Is progress even progress anymore? And is there any hope for us really making that realization? The land is going to save us or sink us.

I feel that my community, so Fort McKay is ground zero of the world's third largest dollar reserve. So we're north of Fort McMurray.

and we're totally impacted by industrial development. So there's a process in Canada with a duty to consult and accommodate. So if industry has any intention of developing on traditional territory, they have to build that meaningful, respectful relationship. And so, you know, people are often asking, like, why are Indigenous people always protesting pipelines? Like, why are they always opposed to industrial development? And

And my response to that is that we feel that we are caretakers, stewards, managers, protectors of the land. And because our culture is a land-based culture, not just Indigenous people in Canada, but globally, we feel that we are to be protectors. And so you have to remember, too, that my mother lived the first six years of her life entirely off the land. There was no stores.

they lived entirely off of the land. So today when we talk about our culture, it's always a land-based culture. All our teachings always go back to the land because all of our food, shelter, clothing, tools, toys, medicines, everything came from the land. And so we still practice traditional way. And so when you're thinking of that, it wasn't generations and generations ago. It was just my mom, you know, that was living off the land. That is...

so hard to fathom. I mean, we all panic if we don't have wifi, you know what I'm saying?

Like, never mind, like I was saying, our convenient lives. Yes. And the toll that takes on the nature, the trees, the plants. I want to ask you, and this was a question that Sarah posed, and we both wanted to ask you about the significance of the solstice in the celebration of Indigenous Peoples Day. I'm so interested in stuff like that, and I'm wondering...

you know, what, what is the importance of that for you? Well, you have to remember that we didn't have a, the Gregorian calendar. We had seasons and there was seasonal harvest of fish, fowl, wildlife, medicines, and berries. And so the moons, the seasons, um,

It was very much now is a time of preparation and there's great ceremony. Now you've got to remember in Canada, there's 634 First Nations in the United States. There's over 500. And so everybody has different,

when it comes to the land, but there's common threads through them all. People always say, well, what is your spirituality? What do you guys believe in? And I would say it's very rare that you meet an Indigenous person who's an atheist. We have a really very strong connection to our Creator because of our connection to creation. In all of our languages, we have a word for God. In Cree, it's Gitchimanitu, which means the great mystery. So we're not afraid of mystery. And we always...

celebrate we have creation stories of how we originated here there has been a common thought that we came across a land bridge across the Bering Strait so that would mean we were of Asian descent or maybe Asians started here went that way but we do know that we have been here for 30,000 years and

And we do have creation stories. One of our most common creation stories is where we call present day North America, Turtle Island. So whenever you hear the reference to Turtle Island, you know that that's from an Indigenous creation story. And so we have all these beautiful teachings of, you know, the land and what you were talking about, the seasons and all of that. So that's so beautiful and in-depth. And I just, I love our cultural ways.

What are some of the traditions that sort of revolve around the Indigenous celebration around the solstice? It varies from people to people as well, I would imagine. Yeah, it's very diverse. For us, we just had our big celebration this weekend. And there was, you know, dancing and drumming. And it's so fun. We have this thing. It's called Fort McKay Idol. Because I think in the north... I love it. We have a lot of...

games, and dancing, and drumming, and laughter. So there is categories of ages. And my granddaughter actually won second in her category. She sang a Taylor Swift song, of course. Yeah. Tay-Tay. And we have chicken contest, which, you know, is accompanied by a fiddle. We have laughing contest. I love that. It's so much fun.

We have Dene hand games, which are, you know, you have two teams opposing each other accompanied by drumming and singing. And it's just...

very vibrant. There was teachings on how to make a birch bark basket, how to make a drum, how to make a dream catcher. My granddaughter and I were making little beaded orange shirts for Orange Shirt Day, little red dresses that were beaded, you know, that you can wear as pins for the murdered and missing Indigenous women. And I was talking to my cousin up there, and he has a master's in art. He's a

a poet, he's amazing. And he said, this is really who we are as indigenous people to, um,

share our culture. This is who we are because there were so many friends that came up from Fort McMurray. You know, there's a lot of people that came up just to experience our culture, to have fun with us. And so we really love those celebrations. We have a lot of winter events as well. We have winter carnivals where we have like how to make a pot of tea the fastest. I might win that. Yeah, you have to make a fire first of all in the snow. I might not win that. I might not win that.

Wouldn't you say that a lot of what people may not know who don't really participate in Indigenous community and culture is that there's so much more celebration to be had? Because I think over the last few years, you know, I've heard Indigenous friends of mine use the term like, you know, trauma porn, just as an example. But where, you know, we need to move into this celebrating and sharing of culture and people don't understand that, like, you know, if you're non-Indigenous, you are still more than welcome to participate in these celebrations. Yeah.

Yeah, it's amazing how we love to share our culture. We invite people. So I would say Canadians, if you see something cultural and somebody invites you, by all means go. Do yourself a favor though. Ask, is there any do's or don'ts? Any proper protocol? Just things like, am I allowed to take photos? You know, is there a dress code? Is there anything I should do or don't? Just so that you don't make those blunders. You're not being, you know, culturally offensive to

when you visit our communities, that's really important. What's a common mistake that people might make in that sense? I think there's ceremonies where, like during prayer, you wouldn't take pictures. That's a really common one. But there'll always be an emcee and he'll advise, like no photography during this time. Everybody stand during this time. Take your hats off during the grand entry. We have, our flag is called an eagle staff.

And so they bring the Eagle staff in and there's just like, you just follow cues. Just be respectful. I would say, I know Jan, you're really close to the Sotena nation days and they have really good power there. And it's really fun. I've been. Yeah. So much fun. Right.

Yeah, it's amazing. And my friend Shirley, who I met when I was doing the grandstand, she's so amazing. Which reminds me, I need to freaking call her.

And she invited me and mom to go. And my mom was very well into Alzheimer's. But I said, we're going to go to a very special thing at Satina. And it was there like the powwow days. It's amazing. It's a rodeo. It's crafts. It's food. It's like you said, the dancing competitions in particular is what

Shirley had invited mom and I to. And of course, I wasn't even thinking to bring lawn chairs, right? I just blindly went and everyone had their chairs in this massive, beautiful structure, like a tent. It was very traditional. I felt like I was going back in time. And it really is a very special, special feeling. There was people right there for me. They had no idea who I was. It was nothing to do with me. They saw me standing there with mom and they offered their chairs and

Someone handed us a couple of lemonades and I'm sure it was Shirley's doing like, look after those wackos over there. They don't know what the hell they're doing. And my mom, she just came to life, Holly. She just came to life. We were very close to the drumming singing circle. My mom clapped and kind of sang along to obviously songs she'd never heard in her life.

And she talked about that for months after that experience. Do you remember years ago? Do you remember we were dancing, Jan? I'm like, we weren't dancing, mom, but I didn't say that. But I really feel like spirit creator came upon her that day and just sort of invited her in because she came to life.

I can't explain it. I mean, I know how, what a special relationship you have with your mom, Holly, and maybe that this is the perfect segue to, to talk about her and, and how she shaped your life, not only as a parent, but now a grandparent, which I cannot believe. Tell me about your sweet mom. I feel like I know her because of

That beautiful shared experience in the short film you made about your mother and her residential school experience. Yeah. Thanks, man, for always being such a supporter of it. I know that you've shared the video. And, of course, you have a lot of, you know, social media activity. And so I really do appreciate that. And so my mom lived the first six years of her life, as I was saying, living off of the land. Very traditional. Speaking only Cree.

and very well loved. And it was fun. And way up there back then, there was no access to her community. You could only go by the river. And when she was six years old, the RCMP came to Fort McKay by the frozen rivers, Christmas time. And they took my mom. They went way out of their way to take my mom to

residential school. So my mom was six years old. My auntie was eight. The little auntie was four years old. And it was a fight, of course.

Could you imagine somebody coming in and taking your children by force? They were kicking and screaming. I said, Mom, do you remember that moment? Oh, yeah, I remember that moment. We were kicking and screaming. They were prying our fingers off our granny. And they took them, and there was no conversation. I've talked to people after. Even today, people have said we had no idea where they went, and the whole community was so full of grief.

And then the kids were told, if you ever see anybody coming down the river, run and run. And Jen, I've even heard here in Treaty 7 territory where a strange car will pull up. Even today, kids run and hide because see how that hatred and that anger was developed because they were stealing our kids. So my mom went to Gerard Residential School. Now, residential schools were created because

in Canada to assimilate Indian children. They thought the best way to assimilate us into Canada, they did air quotes there, was to take our children to raise them. So there was 139 Indian residential schools that were opened by the government, operated by the churches, and it was the police that started to go to the communities and take them. So the government, the churches, the police, they were all in it together.

And so really today, if Canadians need help, they can rely on those three institutions. Us, we don't. We have a severed relationship that needs healing. And so my mom would spend the next 13 years at Girard Residential School. And the stories are true of neglect and abuse. 13 years there.

She never left that compound. But my mom said the nightmare actually continued because on your 18th birthday, your funding gets cut off from the Roman Catholic Church. So they actually just put you on a bus and her ticket took her to Edmonton. Edmonton? The city of Edmonton. What would she know of Edmonton? Nothing. She had never been to a city. Nothing. She had no money.

She said most of the kids end up as Skid Row casualties, commit suicide, the girls end up in prostitution. And it was a nightmare. There was predators waiting. And that's our legacy. Every Indigenous person in Canada today is impacted by the legacy of that historical trauma.

So a few years ago when there was unmarked graves found at former residential school sites, Canadians were very interested in this story. For one thing, why is there a graveyard at a school? Another thing is what happened? And I just felt honored that Canadians were interested because

But you have to remember that we have been carrying these stories for our entire life. And so there is healing to take place and it's multi-generational work. It won't be easy. It won't be quick, but we're working through it. We're talking to Holly Fortier. Don't go away. We'll be right back.

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Well, we're back with my friend, my high school friend, Holly Fortier. Where would you encourage people to begin their journey? Where do we...

engage people that are otherwise not engaged in the conversation, in the narrative of healing, of reconciliation, of murdered Indigenous women and children, the graveyards at the schools? How do we engage people that literally are not making room in their hearts to heal this country? Because I feel that. I feel it every day.

Driving to Bragg Creek, the little stuffed animals tied onto 250 fence posts as you drive down the 22. It is haunting. It really is. You know, it's really interesting. I travel for my work for Indigenous Awareness Training, and I was delivering a training in northern Alberta, and I saw a sign, Gruart.

So I drove in to Grouard and I found the residential school and I FaceTimed my mom and I was like, you wouldn't believe where I am. And we walked around, we spent hours there and the boys were in one building, the girls were in another. And both of those have been burnt down long time ago. But the week before I was there, the church now has been burnt down. It was in the middle. My mom said, oh my gosh, I was in that church two times a day, every single day for two

13 years but we walked around there's a couple of buildings still standing and one of the buildings she goes that was a schoolhouse that's where I taught school and I was like what do you mean you taught school she goes there's no teachers at Gerard residential school so the older girls taught the younger girls reading writing arithmetic but I think the most haunting of all

the visit of my day there was I was driving out and there was a chain link fence on the front of the former residential school site

And there was all these wooden orange shirts with names of residential schools and numbers. And right away I recognized because I saw Kamloops 215. And then I realized, oh, these are the unmarked graves that had now been found through this science that can detect unmarked graves and tons of them on this fence.

The lowest was one. I think that was in South Dakota, one grave. And the highest was 751 in Cowessess, Saskatchewan. Grouard had 169 graves found and they were unmarked. So,

It was very moving for us to go through that. And I just found it a great privilege that I was able to talk with my mom when I was there and just to see it and take some videos for my family. And, you know, it's an important story. And it's such a good question, Jan, like, where do we begin? And I think that we're talking about reconciliation, but a lot of Canadians are wondering, well, what is reconciliation? What are we doing? Right, exactly. And so kind of have to

Back up. We have to go, what is this about? So three commissioners went across Canada and they interviewed almost 7,000 residential school survivors. Now, the reason we call them survivors is because 50% of the children got taken, never survived. 50% of the children taken did not survive. Listeners, 50%.

Take that and put that into your brain. Half of the children taken from their homes, stolen from their homes, were never to be seen again. And 90% of survivors ended up with a mental illness, depression, anxiety, addictions to more severe forms. So those are the survivors.

So you got a little glimpse into one story there and just seeing you, Jan, and I see, you know, you're working through the emotion of it. It's a hard story. It's a difficult story. But these commissioners heard almost 7,000 stories. So can you imagine the enormity of that task in 300 communities? Took them six years.

So they compiled all this information and they presented the final report of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission of Canada. When the Honourable Murray Sinclair submitted it to Canada, here Canada, here's the report, now let's be friends. That's what he said.

I echo that sentiment. Canada, let's be friends. We're talking about reconciliation because there's 94 calls to action in there. So Canadians can look at that. They can respond to the calls, whatever would be a personable or professional application for you. But what comes before reconciliation is truth.

So if every Canadian could go on a truth-finding mission, if every Canadian can say, reconciliation starts with me, if we could all do that. And, you know, I think we have to stop saying, what can I do for Indigenous people? And I think more importantly, for one thing, we're not a problem to be solved, but

But more importantly, what can I learn from Indigenous people? So wherever you get your resources, your books, your audiobooks, your YouTube viewing, your programming, your podcasts, music, whatever it be, look up Indigenous. And maybe there's a topic that really resonates with you. And another thing that I really love is to go to museums and cultural sites, not just to learn about our history, but our collective history.

Take courses. There's lots of courses out there. I offer a course Indigenous Awareness Training, but there's a lot of trainers out there. There's a free course at the University of Alberta, and there's all sorts of resources for you. And the other thing is buy our art. I have friends that are artists, and we get asked this question a lot. Is it okay if a non-Indigenous person buys, wears, uses, displays Indigenous art? And my friends say, yes, please. Here's the rule.

Buy from inspired Indigenous, not Indigenous-inspired. Therefore, you are appreciating the culture, not appropriating the culture. So buy directly from Native artisans.

And the other thing is, you know, there is a dark history for Canadians to learn about because we've been so negligent on sharing that story that there is that history. But let's not focus on that. I don't want to be defined by the struggle. I want Canadians to go, wow, that's a history. And yet, and yet Indigenous people, like we talked about, want to share their culture. We're generous. We're funny. We're kind.

Resilience. Resilient. That's our strength. That's a perfect word, Sarah. And so let's focus on that. Whenever there's a story of success in your industry, music, arts, entertainment, politics, mathematics, science,

Anything like let's profile those stories because those are good stories. But I think that a really important thing for Canadians to understand that is in 1876, the government created this piece of legislation called the Canadian Indian Act.

And the Indian Act said Indians and lands reserved for Indians are a federal responsibility. So what they did is they separate us. So there's all of Canada, and then there's us. And we're actually the only ethnicity that has a government department. So we've been under this piece of legislation even still today. It still governs us. So if Canadians could understand that...

And there's a really great book called 21 Things You May Not Know About the Indian Act by Bob Joseph. Start with that. If we can all understand that piece of history, that's a really important place to start. We're going to make sure that we have links to all these things that Holly's talking about. Your mom, I really do want to honor her today. The daughter she created in you, Holly, the person that she made,

What she endured and went through and witnessed, you know, I think about her little heart, you know, being alone away from her family with these strangers, all these new rules and clothing and learning another language when you're six years old.

And yet when I saw your film and I've watched it many times and I, like you said, I've turned it on to, so you got to watch this, you know, people that I know and people we went to school with, they're like, Oh Holly, it's so, it's, it's amazing. And how do you think she managed to fill her heart with grace? And she hasn't lived in anger. She hasn't lived in

and in rage, and you are such a triumph. Her children, her great-grandchildren, right? I'm just in awe of your story and how you guys...

made your way through this world this last 50, 60 years. Jen, you're so kind. And I just have to say thank you for being such a good ally and for seeing that. I appreciate that very much. I think for my mom, for one thing, she has a very strong resiliency. There's something in her. It must have been from the first six years of her life. But I think what was such a blessing for our family is

is my dad was a geologist and he was doing the surveying of the Athabasca oil field dating back to the 40s and 50s. And he would hire Fort McKay First Nation men to do the land surveying because they were the only ones who knew the land. They knew where the hell everything was. They knew where everything was. And they traveled to work by dog team. They go snare rabbits for lunch.

Those were all her relatives. And he had heard the stories and they said, we heard that Lena was in Edmonton.

So he said, well, when I go through Edmonton, I'll look for her. So fortunate, he found her. And so long, very short, they had a great love affair. And love really healed my mom. And my dad was adopted out at Siksika by one gun. And one gun was a very strong traditionalist. He was at the signing of Treaty 7. And he was just an amazing Blackfoot person.

leader. And he adopted my dad and my dad embraced that culture. And so he soaked my mom in the culture. So I would say for my mom, love and culture was healing. And then she started giving back. I can't even tell you how many people have approached me and said, do you know what your mom did for me?

She set me in this career. She got me in school. She helped me in this area. But I think her greatest legacy, she saw so many children in child welfare from the legacy of not just residential school, but when the residential school started closing from the 60s to the 80s, it was coined the 60s Scoop.

where they were still taking children but adopting them into homes. And those stories are just terrific. And today we have the highest rate of children and child welfare in some provinces. 80% of children in the system are Indigenous.

So she opened up the first home in Canada that was for Indigenous children that was run by Indigenous people. And we had a cultural program for the kids where they learned to drum and dance. So not just that, even though they had social workers and therapists, my mom would bring in elders to sit with them.

And they could go to ceremony. And we saw over 2000 kids go through that program. And I said to my mom, how did you know that that was going to work? And she said, I just want to do the opposite of residential school. They took my culture and I want to put it back in.

And so I was very fortunate to have this really amazing father and mother, these really strong and like Sarah said, resilient people who just encouraged that in me and really pushed me. And I had the hustle to always be in business, to work really hard. And then, you know, I think of my children because then we're working through it, right? Our generations, each generation is just going to be

better. And my daughter and my two sons, it was really important for them to go to university. I don't think I'm a bossy mom, but I was like, you have to go to university because what happened to granny? You have to go. And so they all did. And my daughter ended up going to law school.

When you go to law school, you have to article under a principal. Then your principal has to take you to court, like legit court in a courthouse in front of a judge. Yeah, legit. Legit. And go through your character. I mean, she's perfect. It was fine. But the judge that day said, this is a really important day in Canada. I will accept Billy into the Alberta Court of Law. But her grandmother is sitting in court.

And she's the truest Canadian that, you know, the Canadians that lived on the land spoke their language. But because of a government policy, she was taken from that, put in residential school. And because of what happened in the Indian Act, the rules, there were so many rules for us, and it was really based on a racist ideology. But they said that we could not go to post-secondary education, and we could not go to court, and we couldn't hire a lawyer. Those were rules. And now today...

her granddaughter is going to be a lawyer. So my daughter has worked so hard. She recently became partner in her firm. And there's only like, you know, not that many Indigenous partners in law firms in Canada. And that's my daughter. So she's really a North Star that's really shining so brightly. And so I'm just so thankful for that in my family that we have those stories. And

Some families may take a couple more generations. Let's have compassion. Let's have that empathy and be kind and just realize that we're working through it.

And let's be friends, like Marie said. Let's be friends. Let's be friends, Kana. We still have a little bit of time, and I wanted to ask you about 2CANU Media and what your hopes are for that and what you have planned, sort of what's on the table, what kind of things you'd like to develop, what kind of stories you want to tell, and what the catalyst was for you to begin this media company. Yeah, thanks for asking, Jen. I actually worked in the Alberta film industry for many decades,

And as you know, Jan, there's a vibrant film industry here because you worked with so many people on your show. That knew you. We have a lot of connectors that we know a lot of mutual people. Yeah, from the crew, from the cast. So we have done many Indigenous films here.

And so I started as a background performer on North of 60, and then I ended up being a stand-in and a stunt person, and then moved on to other productions as those performers. But then I also started to work in production, and I loved being behind the camera. I loved, I worked with John Scott, who's a legend in Alberta. He brought many of these

kind of cowboy Indian movies to the province. And so I was John Scott's right hand for many years, you know, cause back in Westerns, they didn't have cars. They had wagons and buggies. So what wagon do we need on set this day? What riders do we need on set? I loved working with the native cowboys, those cowboys that could stick on horses, bareback that could go through battles. And, and we had so much fun. And so when I started doing my indigenous awareness training in 2007, I,

I loved it. I felt all of a sudden, oh my gosh, I've fallen into my purpose. I love that feeling. Isn't it the greatest thing, Jan? And so I really missed film. And so I have a dear, dear friend, Larry Day, who's Jan, our mutual friend. And I said, he has the biggest production house in Alberta, Pyramid Productions.

And I said, would you be interested in doing a film on my mother's residential school story? So we did that film called A Mother's Voice. You can find that on YouTube.

and share it. We loved working together so much that in 2020, we created Two Canoes Media. So I own it. And I'm so fortunate to have this amazing production house. Because as you know, in film, it's like an anthill. There's like tons of people in. Yeah, many, many layers, many layers. Many layers.

And so we created two canoes in 2020 during the pandemic, and we've done over 20 films. That's incredible, Holly. Isn't it crazy? Yeah.

We've won an American Documentary Award. We won at the Calgary Film Festival for Best Alberta Short, Best Producer, Best Director. We were asked by the Academy of Arts and Science to submit for an Oscar. So we are an award-winning Indigenous film company. So as you know, sad, suddenly sad.

And tragically, Larry Day passed away. That's the last time I saw you, Holly, is that we went to his memorial service and we were very happy to see each other. And it was a joyful afternoon. It was a lovely afternoon. It was. He was so well loved. He really was. He helped me so much in the early days, Holly. He would write little things about me long before I ever had a record deal. He would mention me and he and Kirstie, his wife, would...

come and see me sing in these little crap holes, you know, and sit there and they'd probably have to have three glasses of wine just to sit in the chairs and not have their feet stick to the floor. Yeah.

But everyone had that shared experience. You, myself, every other person that was standing out on that sunlit day had that same Larry Day experience. I'm so glad you guys connected. I can see that as such a natural fit. A gift to my life to have met Larry Day. After his passing, his wife, Kirstie, as we know, she's amazing. Powerhouse.

Oh my gosh, she hosted the movie show forever. And she approached me and she said, do you want to keep going? And I'll be your partner. We'll still keep doing it. And so their son, Jordi Day, is my creative director. And we work really well together. And we're having a wonderful time just telling Indigenous stories.

And so we've mostly been working in the documentary and corporate space, and we'd love to do a film. We heard that the Pope had invited a delegation to Rome, and we didn't know what the outcome of that delegation would be. So we followed that. We got one media accreditation, so Jordi went over there. And that's where Pope Francis apologized to First Nation, Métis, and Inuit survivors of residential school and leaders there.

And we have beautiful footage of that. We followed him on his journey to Alberta, Quebec and Iqaluit. And we've been really actively seeking a broadcaster or funding to help

make something of that film, of the apology. And so, yeah, we're just doing really great things. I just feel really honored to share stories because film has a far reach. That is such a great way to have people sitting down and sharing a common experience, you know, to have 400 people in a room. There's so much power in it and it does change people's ideas of how to go forward. It does inspire people.

You and I have both been inspired by so many people that we've met throughout our lives. Sarah, you've been inspired by people in your job and the things that you've chosen to do and people that lift you up. Sarah, you had a question. I want to make sure you have so many great things to ask Holly, and I want to make sure we make time for that. Well, just quick, I was wondering about the significance of choosing to call this new company Tukanoom Media. You know, I really believe that when Europeans first came to Canada, they

They really depended on First Nation people because it was First Nation people that were like, dude, you need to change your shoes and your clothing because you're going to get sick. Dude, you're going to freeze to death. This is not going to work. Yeah. And don't eat that because you'll never come back from it.

As he stuffed some weird berry into his mouth. So those dudes, you know, I always remind Canadians that Europeans depended on First Nations. That was the original relationship, that Europeans depended on First Nations.

And we had that meaningful, respectful relationship. Of course, it changed, you know, with the Westward expansion and the newcomers moving across the country and the battles that took place, relocation to reserves. The reserves were totally the game changer, which is crown pieces of land. Like all of that came. But when we signed treaties, treaties are very complex. You can get a PhD in treaties, but...

But treaties were not surrender of the land. Treaties are peace and friendship treaties. How do we cohabitate? How do we live peacefully together? And one thing that all the treaties have in common, it says this treaty is in effect for as long as the sun shines, the river flows, the grass grows. So that means treaties are forever. And I love including that in film because it's poetic. And also it's a great reminder to share the land. But one of the treaties talks about the two canoes.

So two canoes going in the same direction, they don't want to cross paths. They want to move together. And so I really...

strongly believe in Canada or the country that we now call Canada we can move together in the same direction not cross paths but have that meaningful respectful relationship that we did originally and so that's what I really desire with Two Canoes Media. I love that and and Nisto what about Nisto your consulting business where does the name Nisto come from?

So it's hard to brand, like, what's my company name? NISTO is actually a Cree word meaning three.

And so three is a strong number for me because many different reasons. We have a lot of teachings around three that braided sweetgrass, but also I have three kids and I have three grandkids. And so that's just something that's really part of your story. I'm so unbelievably grateful for the time that you spent with us today. And honestly, this is a conversation that I would love to revisit, you know, six months down the road.

I think we can all do better. And like you said, Indigenous people are not a problem that need to be fixed.

And it is up to us to be respectful, ask the right questions, listen. I did have an Indigenous friend of mine say, you know what you can do, Jen? Listen, listen. I was quite taken aback because my desire to ask questions. And she said, sometimes there's no time for questions. It's time to sit and listen. And that really resonated with me. And we've certainly listened to all the things you've had to say. Your joy, your passion for life.

You are such a breath of fresh air. I really look forward to breaking bread with you soon and, you know, meeting your kids and your grandkids one of these days. My little brother, oh, the irony of things, he works in the oil patch just up in Fort McKay. Mm-hmm.

He just went up there three days ago. He's up three weeks and then home. And he has a lot of conflict about being in petroleum and doing the right thing. He goes, I see a lot of things that really keep me awake at night. How they're moving and how many wells they're putting in and stuff like that. So...

The land is always at the top of your heart and mind, I know. And it's such a part of your history, your family's history. And I think about your mom's mom and your mom's grandmother and her mom and her grandmother, the lineage of unbelievably strong women that, as you said...

lived off the land everything they did, everything they provided for themselves. And that is courage and resilience. And that really is, I don't know, you've given me so much to think about. Hey, Sarah, there's just, I think this is a great conversation for people to begin a journey of those two canoes going in the same direction, wanting the same things and learning, taking time to learn. It's a shared path and we need everyone for it. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. And I'll see you soon, I hope.

You know where to find me. Do you guys have a yearbook you can bust out? A little bit of entertainment? I sure do. In my yearbook, Jan wrote, I had so much fun spinning donuts with your little Datsun in the parking lot at school. You know what, Jan? I have to say to you...

I just so proud of you to witness your life, you know, of course, in music, the great success and, you know, your books, your show, this podcast, and just to witness this, but you still have kept humble and,

So kind, such a big heart, so full of fun. Anybody talks to you goes, she's really funny. But I do have to say, my granddaughter, I was telling her yesterday that we were doing this podcast. She goes, can you please tell Jan that I love, I know that you've had all this great success, but she and I go on YouTube and go watch you and Rick Mercer do all these crazy things.

We laugh. If you guys have not seen it, you must pull it up. Jan and Rick Mercer, and you're welcome. You're welcome. Well, we will leave it there. Rick Mercer is, he would, I'm going to make sure he listens to this conversation, but all the continued success, you know, if you ever need me for anything, you just hit that button on that phone and I am there. I'm so there. And I'm here, Jan. I adore you. Thank you. I love you.

Well, we're two canoes and I can't paddle to save my life. So we will figure it out. Sarah, you can, you and I will go together because we will need two of us for Holly's one. Please look after yourself. You've been listening to the Jan Arden podcast and show. Holly Fortier has been my guest. Make sure you click on to all our media links to all the projects that she's spoken about her media company. Dig a little deeper. Let's, let's just do better and try harder folks. Thank you. Holly Fortier. We'll see you soon. Toodly-doo.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.