Erin Davis: Sobriety, Sleep & All The Pods
43:16 Share

Well, hello everyone. Welcome to the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. I am here with Sarah Burke as always. She is in her Toronto home. I am in my Springbank home. Hooray! I'm so glad to be home. On the show today, we have a Canadian broadcast legend. She's a dear friend of mine. She's a friend of the show. She is a Hall of Famer, an unbelievably successful radio host. I talked to her so many times over the years on CHFI. One of the best of the best interviews I've ever had in my life.

She is also a bestselling author. Mourning Has Broken is one of the most profoundly moving books about grief.

She's also doing sleep podcasts, which are phenomenal. Erin Davis, thank you. Welcome back to the show. It's so wonderful to have you here. And I could go on. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. It's so good to see you again. Hi, Sarah, Jan. Cheers. From rainy North Saanich, overlooking the Victoria Airport and our Amazon warehouse. So here, when we shop Amazon, we're actually shopping local because the warehouse is right there. So

Well, I was in Vancouver yesterday and of course watching the local news as you do when you get up and get your coffee and get going in the hotel room, talking about the abolition of Airbnb in the province of British Columbia. And there's a lot of people that are visibly upset by all of this. Airbnb is a moneymaker. People spend a lot of money on their units and it's a popular vacation spot in British Columbia. So-

I don't know. I mean, they're trying to create housing for people, but there's a housing crisis across this country. Not that you and I are experts, but I'm sad about it because I would like to think of getting an Airbnb in Tofino or, you know, we're in Sydney, but they're doing away with it. Yeah, that's the plan. And it doesn't seem extremely well thought out, but the Gulf Islands will be exempt. Okay. Okay.

I don't know why, but if you're going to Salt Spring or any of the others, they will apparently be exempt. Do you know what I'm thinking too, Erin? They're probably thinking they're not where people would live full time and go to work and be in the lower mainland. It's not a place where there would be housing. Did you think? That's probably it. That makes sense out of it. I don't know if...

Has there been any study that closing down Vrbo and Airbnb actually contributes to bettering the housing situation? I can't imagine it. The hoteliers must be ecstatic. But, you know, I'd rather have a place where you can spread out and bring your own coffee maker and just make it feel like home as opposed to a hotel. Yeah.

We're going to switch gears big time. Last week, we had a duo of women on called the Nipple Sisters. Yes. I keep abreast. You know I do. Yes.

You sent a really interesting email, kind of a follow-up, linked-up story. I'm going to let you take it from here. This really is in correlation with the Nipple Sisters. Sarah, what do they call themselves? Micropigmentation specialists. Okay. Not tattoo artists. Amazing. So they tattooed three-dimensional nipples on women that have gone through mastectomies, reconstructive surgeries, whatever the case may be. These nipples are much better than my nipples will ever look.

But anyway, tell your story, Erin. I got to hear this. Okay. Well, I first told it on our Gracefully and Frankly podcast. I'd never told this story because, you know, I think you'll relate that when you're in the public eye, you want to be as genuine as possible. And there is a difference between the personal and the private. And the personal is good to share if it's universal. The private, nobody wants to hear that, especially at seven in the morning. But I can tell this story now.

Um, when I was about 40, I decided that I wanted better breasts than what I was given. They were, you know, they were fine. They did the job when I had a daughter and, uh, you know, I had no complaints from all the guys. I mean, my husband. So, um,

Rob wouldn't complain. He would always, you know, he's just, he's like a teenager. It's like naked lady all the time. It never gets old, even though I do. Right. So anyway, I decided I wanted to have a nice set of breasts that I was happy with.

And here's my first mistake. There were a number. My first mistake was I booked a clinic out of Toronto. I wanted no one to know I was doing this. You know, it's not like they were going to be flashing my boobs up on a screen in the waiting room, but, um,

I decided on that. And I think I made a wise decision in that I just, I wanted these implants, which were silicone and not saline to be below my pectoral wall under the muscles so that mammograms would be okay. Cause I've done so much work with breast cancer research and,

And I thought, don't be stupid. Don't do something stupid. Well, the ship had sailed on that statement. So I got them put in and one of them started to migrate under my arm and it was uncomfortable. And these were not huge. I'm sorry, I'm laughing.

I just, it's okay. You have to at the moment when they've got the level and the Sharpie and they're measuring where things are going to go. That's when you know that stuff's getting real. Yeah. But anyway, I went ahead and did this. It started to migrate and I went back and I said, this thing is moving. And she said, okay, we'll put it in the right place, but it's going to cost you because we know you don't want to go to the hospital where there's publicity. So as if they're hanging out, like I'm Beyonce giving birth.

But, um, so I had to pay for the, uh, clinic again, you know, to bring in nurses. I don't know why the janitor wasn't ready because they might as well have been. Um,

So anyway, Lefty gets moved into place. And ever since that time, I started having nerve pain. And the nerve pain, I thought, okay, after about 10 years, I decided, all right, I got to get this out. This is not working. They were working. They looked great. But damn, I had a radio partner and he won't mind you telling this. Like Mike Cooper. It's like, Mike, my eyes are up here, but it never really mattered.

God bless him. And so I had them removed by a doctor in Toronto and he replaced them, but it never healed. And we're talking having to go back in three times. Oh, Aaron. What's left now of lefty is about a third smaller than righty.

And we tried saline, we tried everything and it was just rejection after rejection. Long story short, I still have the nerve pain and I put ice packs on it until my skin turns dark brown, but it's the only thing that alleviates the pain. So there you go. Oh my gosh. And you still have your nipple, right? I still do. Please be aware that this next detail is delicate. If you're listening on iHeartRadio, they do remove them

Gather up the breast like a crown Royal bag. I've seen videos. Oh, okay. Okay. You know what I'm talking about? And then sew it back on. Yeah. The nipple is, they cut around it with an exacto knife, like from a biology class.

And it's tethered to its little long stranded thing. But Sarah, are you going to be okay? I got to go. Well, listen, when they do a tummy tucks, they cut around the navel and it's tethered. It's got this little cord that you were attached to your mama with. But when your tummy is pulled up and all that extra skin is cut off, then they drill another little hole to put your belly button in. Yeah. So that your belly button's back. Put it.

under your ribs so you can get some on the side. Hello. Hello. Nevermind. You know, my mom had breast implants when she was, she had the saline and she had lots of difficulties with those. She got, like you, she's like, I've always been really small, flat chested and I want to get breasts. And she saved all her money. I think she worked at like an egg farm and had all these part-time jobs. And

And she saved up her money and went to a very reputable guy in Calgary. And she had these implants for quite a number of years. And then the saline started to leak. And she had heard, you know, she was reading different things about, it might have been Alzheimer's, dementia. There was things going wrong anyway. She got them removed. And then she just went back to mom's old boobs. But she was at an age where she probably didn't give a crap and didn't really care.

she wasn't worried about that. She goes, I don't regret doing it and I'm glad I did it, but it wasn't safe to leave them in. I just was reading too many things about those implants. And so that was that. Um, yeah, I think you should be able to do what makes you feel good and, and, and know what the risks are. And I'm sorry that you have that nerve damage. What about cortisol?

What can't they give you a shot? Like you do with sciatica. You got sciatica of the boob. I could do. Yes. It's sciatica. I don't know. Um, my, you're so quick with that stuff. Yeah. Stuff I couldn't say on the radio. She said, mommy. Um, yeah, I, uh,

I have two breast reduction stories that will curl your hair. My mom was extremely well endowed and that's perhaps why I felt, you know, kind of, and also worked in a business where men all the time talked about women's shapes and figures and stuff. And I always felt like the boy in the room. I always did because I, you know, I was the only one in our whole studio who could drive stick for heaven's sake. So there was a lot more testosterone in me than I probably deserved.

My chin hairs will tell you that's still the case. But so my mom had a reduction and she was about our age, about 60, not you, Sarah, you embryo. And, um,

She had them reduced, but the doctor just hacked away. I think he figured that she was no longer sexual, so it didn't matter. And then I have a sister also. So I have three, no one will be named. She had a reduction. She wanted to go down to an A cup, no, a B cup. And the doctor decided she would rather be a C cup.

Now, I have no idea whether her, you know, boob crazy husband had some say and slipped this guy a C note on the side or whatever, but she didn't get the small breasts she wanted. So I don't know. I can't say leave them alone because for a while I was very happy and Rob thought he'd won the lottery, but he's still happy with whatever, whatever, whatever. God bless him. Well, it's interesting, you know, really the...

infatuation, the mysticism, the attention given to breasts, I guess throughout history, you know, I'm always surprised that it's such a big deal, that it's such a point of focus, you know, in advertising. I mean, gosh, boobs are used to sell everything from hamburgers to motorcycles, right?

And then back around again, it's just really interesting to me. You know, women have often, you know, fought for rights to be able to go topless like men. I'm not one of those women. But anyway, there's people doing really interesting reconstructive work out there. The Nipple Sisters have even come up with, they launched a new company on our podcast. Company. Company. That was good. That was a Freudian nip slip. Yeah. The old nip slip.

but they have peel-off different colors, sizes of areolas that can be put on you temporarily if you're going through treatments, if you're not ready to go through the pigment augmentation. These girls are so innovative, and I had no idea how many hundreds, how many thousands of women required stuff like this. This is the tip.

The tit of the iceberg right here. And I had to do it because Erin was going to do it. I know. It always feels very funny being on the other side of the microphone stand interviewing Erin Davis because she interviewed me over the last three decades at many different points in my career. Erin, you're doing a lot of stuff these days.

And I'm so glad to see that you are at the helm of this broadcast entertainment empire still. It didn't take, no, but seriously, I see you everywhere. I love the social media presence. Talk to me about your podcast with Lisa Brandt, Gracefully and Frankly. You guys have been doing this for a while. You've got 55,000 downloads.

And like you mentioned, going into our breast talk, you and Lisa talk about a lot of things. Thank you. That's really nice and generous of you. And I love about you that there is bounty enough for all.

And I think we've seen that in nighttime talk shows, right? When somebody will have on CBS a TV star from NBC. I love that the lines have been taken down. The walls have been taken down. Yes. I appreciate it. Gracefully and Frankly is two women born 12 days apart, same year as you. And we're just...

Unfortunately, our voices apparently sound quite a bit alike and people seem to have a little difficulty with that. I don't know why. That's why they never used to play female artists back to back on the radio. Jan, do you remember those days? I can't. Yeah, I remember it. Yeah. Yeah. People will tune out, separate them.

We just talk about everything. Again, it's the personal, but not the private, unless in Lisa's case, it was talking about having a relative who molested her as a child. And we did a warning before that, but it was only in the context of follow your intuition. So often we're told, don't listen to those voices. You're not right. Just go there. Go out with that guy or do that thing, you know?

So we talk about that. We talk about funny things. We talk about me running through a field with my grandson and having one of my chicken cutlets go missing. And God knows what happened to it. But some dog came home with a treat that Bobby didn't understand. You know, just hopefully funny things. And they're once a week. And we just love doing it. The hard thing about podcasting now is monetizing.

We're lucky we have a sponsor. We have Envy Pillow, which started by two Canadian women and they're fantastic. But it's the monetization because I must put at least 36, 48 hours into each episode because I produce them too, which is my true love. Oh, wow.

editing and then dropping in music and just making it all sing. It's all part of the creative process. It sure is. And, and so if, if we could get paid what it's worth, it would really be great. But you know,

small problems. We're doing what we love. Yeah. And I think it's something that you can certainly grow. We're in a field with thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of podcasts. Oh, yeah. And it was certainly spurred on when COVID hit. People were at home. They had their equipment. What am I going to do? You had a lot of actors, a lot of directors, a lot of musicians starting these podcasts, which I loved. And

I mean, the variety of topics and things that you can hear about. But like you said, there's room for everybody. Success is not a ladder. It's a horizon. And I think the visual idea of seeing success as this ladder is the most ridiculous kind of metaphor because it conjures up visions of

going around people and climbing over them. And it's a horizon. There's room for everybody. In fact, you know, it's been proven, even when you're looking at restaurants on a restaurant row, you're thinking about competition. Who does not love when they go on vacation, a row of restaurants that goes for as far as you can see? Yes. Everyone benefits from it. And when you're there a week, you try different stuff throughout the week. So it's not like, oh, I want to be the only guy on the street. Well, it doesn't bode well for anybody. Right.

But yeah, and you're also doing sleep stories. Now, I love a sleep story. And you're doing Drift with Erin Davis. And what are some of the topics and what are the kind of gist of the stories that you tell

to not keep people's attention, but rather have them fade away from your story and into a restful sleep. And there's real magic in that, isn't there, Erin? There is. And your podcast is in the top 0.5% of all podcasts listened to in the world that are measured. And Drift is now in the top 1%. So

Holy crap. You are. And, you know, I looked it up before I decided whether I wanted to be on the show with you. I mean, should I? But anyway, I would come and talk to you if you were in a broom closet. And you too, Sarah. Same. So...

Drift began when I would be listening to calm stories. I couldn't sleep because I would go, I can do this, I want to do this. And here's the sound of the voice that I employ. And I'll say, welcome to Drift. And we do about three minutes of meditation and relaxation. And then we say, if you're ready, I am safe, I am loved, I am at peace. And if you're ready, let's drift. And the stories that I use are public domain stories.

They're over 100 years old, so it can be any of the Grimm fairy tales, but not the ones where they cook Granny in the oven. Or if you find ones, and Grimm had a lot of beasts eating other beasts and stuff, you change them, not to become politically correct, but to become gentle. And I try to always end with a happy ending. It can be an Oscar Wilde story. It can be Winnie the Pooh. It can be any of those tales, familiar or unfamiliar, but

And just some things that it's the best, as you say, the kind of show, are you falling asleep, Dan? Come back now, honey. Come back. We'll bring you back just for a moment. But the best praise you can get is when people say, I never hear the ending. And it's like, yes, that's what I want. And it was a dream.

And I just kept at it. And it ate me alive doing one a week because, you know, you read the stories, you cut out all your mouth sounds, you do all the things that people have no idea. I have very sibilant S's. So I take down every S, believe it or not. That's a lot of work. It is right in my computer. I have an S hole. So sorry. Sorry.

Dad jokes, Sarah. Dad jokes, dad jokes. So yeah, it's a labor of love. And then I have a third podcast that I actually do for the Canadian Real Estate Association. And that's the one that pays for vacations. So that's what I'm up to. Okay, Erin, when we come back talking with Erin Davis, I want to talk to you more about your sobriety journey. So please don't go away for that.

Really important conversation that we all need to have. You're listening to the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. I'm here with Sarah Burke. We'll see you on the other side of this. We are so excited to welcome another new sponsor, our friends at Cove Soda. Have I pestered Cove enough to come and join us here at the Jan Arden Podcast? I love them so much. They are Canadian, first of all. They are a natural, certified organic, zero sugar soda, which includes, get this, one big

Billion probiotics. I kind of sounded like Dr. Evil there, didn't I? But seriously, you can get 80% of your daily vitamin C in just one can. Cove Soda is on a mission to promote gut health for all, and you still get to have a delicious treat

while putting a gut-friendly, guilt-free drink in your body. Cove Soda is available in 12 delicious flavors all over North America. So for our American friends, you can find it. They've got this fruity lineup that's fantastic. I drink those all the time. They've got the classic lineup if you like

A cola or a cream soda, root beer, yes indeedy. And they've got their limited edition summer flavor, which will take you right back to the second grade. You gotta try the ice pop one. Head to janardenpod.com to find out where the closest place to you is where you can go and buy Cove. Go right now.

You know, just getting back to these sleep stories, to me, it's been a relief of having a tool that I can use to go to sleep because left to my own devices, my mind gets turning and spinning. And I, it's not that I'm super anxious person. I'm pretty, I'm pretty consistent with my behavior. I'm not really up. I'm not really down. I don't get super sad. I don't get

Sometimes I'm blue about this or that or the world or whatever, but when I'm sleeping at night, I don't know about you, Sarah, too, but I just go to the most ridiculous things of tasks that I need to do. And, oh, I can't believe I said that. That's it. That's the thing. The thing you want back.

The thing that happened in high school. And, you know, and Sarah, I'll shut up and let you talk for a second here. But my husband, there was somebody, I think it was Don Miguel Ruiz and his four agreements. And one of them was, it's their movie. And Rob, my husband, who's so much wiser than I will say, do you think right now they are lying in bed thinking about you? And the answer is always no.

So, I mean, that's always some perspective that helps. It is. It's silly. How about you, Sarah? I'm a to-do lister. So I'll list the things on my to-do list, whether it's like, what did I not get done today? What do I have to do tomorrow? And that sometimes consumes me. But I was wondering if you two meditate outside of like the podcast world. Do either of you do that? I've never meditated in my life. So I don't really, I don't know what that is. I haven't, Erin. No.

I think I do in my own way. I love to read and I have a real routine when I go to bed. That's been important for me this last decade because as you know, as you get older, and we're going to talk about that, Erin, because you and I are 62 babies, our sleep cycles naturally change because of hormonal shifts. I get up, you know, 5.30 in the morning. I'm awake, but I go to bed earlier if I'm not working. But even if I work and I'm in bed by midnight after a show, I'm still awake at 5.36. Okay.

And I'm not a napper. But anyway, the apps Drift, Calm, Aura has some sleep programs with the ring. Oh, yeah. And there's a bunch of them out there. Certainly, YouTube has some great things that you can go on. Some people like ASMR, the whispering, the sounds of, you know, nails or brushing your hair.

things like that. Like there's all kinds of things that entice us to shut that mind down. Sleep cleans your brain out. It cleans all those toxins that build up. I know young people don't really care about this stuff right now, but you need to look after yourself because the old person you're going to become is relying upon you to look after yourself. And sleep because you don't get restful sleep when you've gone to sleep drunk. Um,

You don't get your REMs or REMs or whatever, REO speed wagon, none of those things because the alcohol just... So your body isn't healing the way it needs to be. It's kind of just in a flatline state. So you think, oh man, I slept 12 hours. Well, that's...

That is why you feel like dirt. You passed out. Exactly. It's not the restful sleep you need. Your heart rate is elevated. Your heart is doing, you know, 90, a hundred, 110 beats a minute when it should be between 45 and 55 when you're resting. Yep. It's one of the biggest things I did. And I know with your sobriety journey too, Erin, it changed the person that I am because I started getting rest and I started thinking properly and

I actually became the person I always knew that I could be. Sarah knows this because I've talked about it a lot on the show, but if I never do anything else in my life, tackling alcohol and addiction, and people are like, I didn't even think you drank that much. You never seemed like that person. I'm like, that's the trick. Yes, exactly. You hide it away. Of course you didn't know. I didn't want you to know. Right.

Yeah. Can I ask you, how did your drinking, the timeline go along with the TV show? Because in my heart, I would like to think that sobriety brought along Jan on CTV because my sobriety, I think,

think brought along my grandkids coming to live here on the island. But tell me about that. And I'm trying not to interview you, my love. No, no, I love this. This is what it's about. This is our show today. I was sober in 2015, August the 13th.

So I was three years into being sober. I would never been able to do the TV show. I would never been able to re learn the lines. I would never been able to be up at five o'clock in the morning. I would never been able to do 15, 16 hours a day. I would never been responsible. I would have let everybody down.

I wouldn't have been able to do it. I know I wouldn't be alive right now. I wouldn't. And people are shocked to hear me talk like that because outwardly they didn't see that. But, you know, a lot of the times if I was in the radio show with you in the morning, I would have been really hungover. Probably every time I saw you, I was hungover. So was I, Jan, because there were years in my career when it was easier to come in hungover than to face the anger in the room. I had more than one co-host who, you know, either didn't think that I...

belong there because I don't know, my boobs were too small or that I had them at all, you see. Yeah. So there was, I would, you know, power drink at night and then just get through the morning because it was easier hungover than to feel all the feels. What are your thoughts about that wine culture? Oh my God, I am so tired of it. And I think it was, it did explode during COVID because we all

And I think all of us felt this. And it's part of why so many people gained weight during COVID and stuff is that it felt like March break. Oh, my God, I don't have to go to work. I don't have any obligations. I'm going to eat all the M&Ms. I'm going to have all the Chardonnay and all of the sales that LCBO went through the roof. But just the other night on the news, you know, they are saying Canada has a drinking problem. And yeah, it's true.

because we were all mourning something, whether it was a wedding you were supposed to go to or your job or everything that you thought your life was going to be was put on hold for a couple of years. And how do people react? Well, many self-medicated and it's legal and it's so socially accepted. I'm drinking wine out of this coffee mug during my company Zoom meeting. I'm

RRR. You know, it's just, I know, but it's hard not to get on a high horse. When your daughter passed away, tragically. Yeah. Shortly after she gave birth to your first grandchild. Yes. And your book, Mourning Has Broken, dealt with that extraordinary tragedy that nobody ever wants to face or think about. You did the foreword. Thank you. How did drinking play into your

Those first couple of years. Talk to me a little bit about that because I know there's people struggling and they think that having a few drinks is the answer to masking and cloaking those feelings of doom and darkness and unhappiness. Do you want to hear the truly ironic part? I was in the midst of 10 years of sobriety at that point.

And losing Lauren did not break my sobriety, but I didn't have AA or anything kind of backing me up. I thought I can do this alone. I'm the CEO of my life. Wrong. But it was a year and a half later when I decided to walk away from the radio show and leave it in the hands of a complete moron. And I don't mean Maureen Holloway.

I walked away and then all of a sudden I'm on this flight. It was November. I had announced I was leaving the morning that the world learned Trump had become president. And the two are not correlated, but it was like bang, bang. And so later that week, Rob and I are on a flight to go on a short vacation. I order, I order, I request a Caesar from the flight attendant, a virgin got one.

And then the second one had vodka in it. And I had a sip and I went, oh, no, I do this now. And it's not like I turned into Barney from The Simpsons who was completely successful and sober and then had one drink and he went off the rails. I made a conscious decision and our ship cabin had bottles of whatever I wanted. I drank martinis till I was sick.

And I was full on because I thought I had an off switch. I said to Rob, maybe I've grown an off switch. But the thing about addiction, and Jan, you will know this, is while you're doing victory laps, your addiction's doing pushups in the parking lot. And even though you stopped at this level, like a level seven, your addiction has continued to grow with time to where you would have been if you were still addicted. So my addiction went to a full on 10 right away.

I was leaving radio anyway. I didn't have a 3.30 alarm. I didn't have to look decent in front of a camera. I had all of these restrictions I'd had on me since I started in radio at 18 and they were no longer there. So like many people who enter retirement, it felt like, again, spring break.

And that's what so many people do when they no longer have a purpose or obligations. They just go party on Garth. And that's, that's what happens. What did Rob think? Rob was always my caregiver enabler in the kindest ways. He never wanted to be

my police because he knew I would resent that. So I would hide it a little bit. You know, he would say half the time, well, where did the vodka go? And I said, well, you saw me going to get iced teas. And he said, I thought they were iced teas. He always saw my better self. Um, and, and, but when I said I wanted to go into rehab,

It started out as me going to a paid counseling group in Victoria. And they said, no, no, no. You're drinking isn't your problem. It's what you're not dealing with that's making you drink. And I went, okay. And I'm always all in if I'm doing anything, says the woman retired who does three podcasts. So I voluntarily went to rehab up Island a little bit in Cedars. And I stayed there for seven weeks.

Seven weeks. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have to detox because keener than I am, I was sober by the time I went in. But I wanted to take it all in. I wanted to learn. Do you feel...

nervous or apprehensive about falling off of that cliff again? Or do you have a different sense being in your sixties, early sixties now of, no, I got this. Or as an addict, can you never, ever completely close that gate? Is it something you and I will always be at risk of? It's the latter. It is definitely the latter because it's always waiting. It is all

Thank you.

And it's the only time when I think I could drink now. But if I had vodka in the house, I wouldn't have opened it because I will tell Rob I could drink now. And he'll say, let's talk about that. Because when rehab was over, he said, you're never doing this again. And neither am I. And I said, amen, because it was awful. Is he sober, too?

Yeah. Well, yeah. And damn him. He's one of those people who can just do that, Sarah. He doesn't have the gene or the background that brought me to this place of vulnerability with it. He's a sensitive man, but he's not a super sensitive man. Everything hurts. Everything is personal. All of that. He's much more stoic than I. And if I have to go through this life, if I get to go through this life,

of tragedy and triumph and tragedy. Again, I am so grateful he's walking me through it because we are old souls together. And man, I am so lucky. We're 35 years together. Wow. I can't even last a weekend with anybody.

What's wrong with me? I made it to 10 years once. Did you? You had a 10-year tenure? Yep. You had a 10-year tenure. Erin wants to tell us about a little something she noticed about a Michelin star restaurant that's not allowing children in the restaurant. So tell me about that.

There's this Indian restaurant and they have right there on their website that guests under 10 are not welcome. They say it much more gently than that. But there was a great outcry, of course, because people really do feel a sense of entitlement to take their kids everywhere all the time.

And I get that if your child is well behaved and knows the importance of being on their best when you're in a certain situation. And I also get that parents want so desperately to pretend to have a life of

when perhaps they're visiting Toronto and this is on their bucket list and they are not going to trust their child with a nanny at a hotel or whatever, and I'm sure there are good ones. And then I thought, well, good for them. That's great. I think that that's... And then I thought, what if they said patrons over 80 are not allowed because patrons over 80 may not tip. Patrons over 80 may...

linger too long. They may split a meal. Right. They may not drink. Right. Well, it would be unacceptable. But listen, I would love to be in a restaurant without kids always forever and ever. I have seen kids do the creepiest, weirdest things crawling around under my table, eating a meal, having a child. And the parent, some parents, not all of them, they don't give two craps. They are just like, oh, and

sorry. He's just learned to walk. And I'm like, great. But just loud and people having tantrums

Um, I, I would prefer to be in a restaurant without kids. I would myself. Um, if you're going to go to Chuck E. Cheese's or if you're going to go to a, a chain where it's a family restaurant, Denny's or what have you. Yeah. I expect to see families and they're doing that, but I don't want to go out for a nice meal and sit next to a three-year-old in a high chair. I know, I know I'm sounding like an ass.

Sarah, you tell me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but I completely agree. And like, I even have a hard time this morning in the grocery store. Okay. Like three kids like bawling their eyes out, having meltdowns and the mom's on the phone. I'm like, get off the phone. Do you want me to help your children? Because I would like to pick the apple behind your crying child.

Right. Are we being terrible? I think we're being terrible because I'm childless. Aaron is a grandma. Your lovely, beautiful grandson just had a birthday. Nine-year-old Colin. Yeah. And I bet you Colin would be an upstanding young citizen in a restaurant. If I misbehaved, Aaron, back in the day, you tell me if I'm wrong here, girls, my dad would have murdered me. I would have been cracked across the back of the goddamn head so fast. I

You sit down and you eat your goddamn whatever. Like my dad was not that... If I had crawled on the floor...

I think I would have been in trouble if I'd knocked a spoon off the table, not even on purpose. Like there would have been no hint of that. And it's not just me. I'm talking about a generational thing. My friends that I went to school with, we talk about kids in restaurants and my friend Nigel's like, he says, if my bloody dad, if I was behaving like that when I was that age, my dad would have twisted my arm off. Like it didn't happen in those days, but now you're seeing children crawling on the back of like a ledge, right?

Colin probably would not do that because I'm sure you and Rob. Never. And young Colin's parents have been like, son, don't know. You don't do that. Yeah.

Now, the four-year-old, she's a little bit more of a coin toss because she doesn't know where it's, if we call her Hurricane Jane, she's well-mannered at times. If she doesn't have her tablet at the table, it can be a problem because that's always her great diversion. But she doesn't quite know the importance of, let us call them social graces. And that's completely...

Completely to be understood. Okay. So don't take her to the nicer restaurants. But the other thing that we're not mentioning is if you're a Michelin rated restaurant, you're not getting out of there for under $400. And do you want to be dropping that kind of coin just to have little Hayden, Jaden, Caden, McFadden screaming in the next booth while you're trying to enjoy your naan bread?

No, it's not for me. And I think parenting is a nightmare. I think parents are suffering from PTSD. I think they've had their child at home for two and a half years. I absolutely have empathy. I'm not devoid of feelings towards people that have jobs, they're struggling, they're trying to make ends meet. Of course. Both parents are working and the kids are struggling at school. They have anxiety. There's so many things to unpack with...

with children in public spaces. But even in airports, my ire goes up when I see, and this is a filthy airport, when kids are on their hands and knees, literally crawling across an airport, going up to people with their stuff. And if there's a child kicking my seat behind me on an aircraft-

Now I do turn around and I'm like, I'm so sorry, but this has got to stop. And usually the parents are mad at me. Or they're unaware. Yeah.

I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. But they're mad that I've said something. Oh my God. And I, honest to God, on my mother's life, guys, I'm always nice about it. Like the three times I've said it, it's taken me a half an hour to get up the courage. I don't want to hurt their feelings. I don't want them to think, oh, Jan Arden is da-da-da, if they even know who the hell I am, because usually they wouldn't. And I'm just saying, I'm sorry. I'm trying to work and I can't.

Your son is kicking my seat. And they will say something, but I know they're mad. You know, he's a kid. He's a kid. What do you want him to do? Like, sorry, lady, it's a six-hour flight. So I get that. And I'm just like, oh, damned if I do, damned if I don't. Yeah, I totally hear you. Well, we could do an entire hour on the lack of civility on aircraft. I mean, we've all experienced that.

But yeah, I lost it once and I was so ashamed of myself. What did you do? I was in my seat and the child behind me had his tray down and he wasn't just coloring or drawing. There was some pounding going on on the tray. So I just sat up in my seat and I sat back hard, hard.

And it was like, and the mother, I turned around and the mother just looked at me in utter shock. Like I was a murderer. And yes, I did not comport myself the best way. I should have said something, but I think flying does bring out the worst in us. There's the stress, there's the tension, there's the discomfort.

And then there's the inconsideration that seems to abound. You know, it's all of the rules are off. Taking your shoes... Well, we're starting. Never mind. We're... Never mind. I'm not going to retract what I said, but Sarah has agreed with me. It is difficult if you're...

Oh, there's places that you shouldn't take your kids. Let me put it that way. I have a friend who put his child on the bar, his child's bum on the bar, and we're having margaritas at this Mexican place. And I'm just like, really? In a bar or is it just a restaurant bar? Mexican restaurant bar. Yeah. Okay. Listen, it all comes down to parenting. I think all of it.

All of it. My dad would have killed me. I would have been dead. Yeah. If I hadn't gotten the right hand of the father there in the restaurant, which never happened anyway, we had four kids and going out to dinner was a very big event. I can count them almost on one hand. So we acted, we behaved, but if not, it would have been deadly in the car.

on the way home, never heard the end and, you know, a grounding or something. They couldn't take away our tablets, but they promised us that when Apple invented something, we could take with us and watch shows. We wouldn't be able to have them ever. So. Well, listen, we have done it all today, Erin Davis. I think this has been an absolute pleasure talking with you. This lady has got it going on. You can find out everything about the three podcasts that she has created.

got going, her bestselling book, her website, and a whole bunch more on the show notes this week. What's your podcast called that you're doing for the realtor people?

Oh, CREA. It's called Real Time. And this week we talked to Peter Mansbridge. It was such a treat. Okay. Well, that's amazing. Well, anyway, she's doing a bunch of things. I love your inspirational things that you do on your website at erindavis.com. Morning is Broken is available in bookstores. You can grab it on Amazon. You don't have to have had any kind of loss in your life to appreciate the wisdom and

and the sage advice that Erin Davis will tell you. Thanks for being on the Jan Arden podcast and show. You can find out everything about the three podcasts that she has got going and a whole bunch more on the show notes this week. Sarah Burke, as always, thank you for being here. We will see you next week. We are on iHeart, of course. We're on iTunes. We're on Spotify. You can find us anywhere. Hit subscribe.

Give us a rating. There's five stars, but you can give us seven if you want. And it'll make us easier to find. But thank you to our listeners week after week after week. We appreciate you more than you know. We will see you next time. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.