Dan Riskin: The Case for Ants & Scientific Truths
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Gracious good afternoon, everyone. It's Jan Arden, Caitlin Green. We have a great guest today. One of the favorites of the show. We've had him on once before talking about bats. This is one of the most interesting human beings in this country, if not the planet. Dan Riskin is with us today. He is an evolutionary biologist and I could go on and on about all his

academic prowess, but really I just want to get to the heart of, you know, some of the stuff that's on your mind these days, Dan. And whenever I get your newsletters, when I see any of the stuff that you've been writing or working on, and I'm sure Caitlin, you agree with this. You're like, what?

The hell? I know. Dan makes like very intense science stuff sound completely like palatable and interesting to the rest of us whose brains are a little bit smoother than his maybe. Totally. Hang on. You guys are just blowing way too much smoke here. No, we're not. The thing is that there's so much good stuff out there in the science world and it's fun because as you're eating vegetables so you don't feel any guilt and it feels like hot gossip sometimes and other times it feels like just wow-ness but...

I'm obsessed right now, Jen, I don't know if this one's on your radar yet, but I'm obsessed with this thing, this study about how ants, like the little things, ants are changing the diet of lions in Kenya. Okay, do tell. This to me is the kind of thing where it's like, this is how the world is so connected and the small creatures have such a big impact. And Jen, I thought this would be one you'd like. And so, okay, here it is. So there's an ant that lives inside a kind of

tree called acacia. Acacia has these big thorns, but they're not very painful, but the ants live inside this tree. And if you ever make the mistake as an animal of trying to eat this plant, the ants swarm out and they attack you and they are...

People who rate the pain of different kinds of insect bites put these ones near the top. They are extremely painful on the Schmidt Pain Index, which is the official way, the Schmidt Pain Index. And even elephants are dissuaded from eating acacia because the ants not only bite the elephants, they know to go up inside the trunk. Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Yeah, I know. You're not even an elephant. You can imagine how much that hurts. So the point is you've got these well-defended plants that live in Kenya and the elephants don't knock them over. And the lions can use those trees as a place to hide when they're ambushing their favorite food, zebra.

A new kind of ant has been invasive in Kenya and it is killing the ants that live inside those acacia. So this new ant is killing the ants that already live there. Now the trees are defenseless. Now the elephants are eating those trees and

Now the lions don't have the same hiding place and they're not able to hunt zebras as easily. And so the lions have shifted their diet. So now they're eating buffalo, which are easier to catch, but a buffalo is a tough fight. And so lions are more likely to get injured as a result of this. And their whole world has changed all because of an invasive ant. And you would think that an ant would have no impact on a lion, but there it is.

It's the little things, folks. It's the little things. I love that story. Literally, in this case, it is the little things. Listen, I'm interested in ants, for one thing. And I'm pretty sure we didn't talk about this, but I have...

four foot high anthills on my property. I live west of Calgary. There was one hill that was very close to the house that was on the deck. It broke my heart to have a guy come out. I'm sure their little tunnels were 15 feet deep and very intricate with millions of ants. And I really thought about it hard, but it was literally impossible for me to sit out there and the dog and everything. But I have probably 20 massive anthills on my property. And

And they don't really bug me. Once in a while, I'll be swatting one off and get bit by one, which is quite painful, whatever these little guys are, when I'm gardening. But I'm just like, you know what? I'm not. Y'all can do whatever you want. You know, the exterminator was like, Jesus, these are huge. Like, wow. And I said, no, just leave them. This is where they live. I'm just, I'm here on borrowed time. I'm a renter in this property. Well, I mean, I own the property, but really, I don't own anything. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I gotcha. Yeah, and you haven't been attacked by any lions, I bet, too. That might be a hidden thing. Yeah, it's really interesting that they're having to switch their food source because of an ant. I don't think we realize how interconnected we all are, Dan. Yeah, and so, you know, people talk about invasive species and the impacts they can have, but it's understanding these webs of connection that really...

For me, that's part of the beauty of nature, right? It's all these surprises. And sometimes you can't see the connections until something gets thrown off. And then you're like, oh, that was connected this way because I didn't expect this thing to fall off over here when something happened on this side. So I know you love nature. I know you love animals. And that complexity, I just, when I saw that story, I thought of you right away. So I was excited to tell you about it.

I feel like you've nailed it because Jan just explained that she's too nice to ants to like tear down giant four foot haul anthills. Like not a problem I would have. I just feel like they're doing something important to,

And Dan can speak to that better than I could, but they really stay where they are. They're obviously burrowing down, but their hills are massive and they're mostly consisting of spruce needles, Dan. They're like just millions and millions of little needles that they, and I see them walking. They have little highways. They walk in their little lines. I love that about ants, I will say. But the only thing is I have friends who were living in Costa Rica and

And they didn't realize when they built their house that like they built it on like on unoccupied land. So they didn't realize when they built their house that they essentially built their house in what seasonally becomes the 401 for ants.

And so they had house guests who woke up and they just had like a bed, like a platform bed kind of on the floor. And they woke up to the ant superhighway going through their hair. Oh, gosh. The ants had crawled up in through the window and then like gone right through. And it was just like a steady stream of them. There was no stopping. Oh, no. I essentially have to move your house.

Yeah, that's amazing. So I did my master's in Costa Rica and we had some interactions with army ants and army ants do exactly what you're describing. It's not like there's just this one nest and it operates from there. It moves like a giant predator as a colony through the forest and wherever it goes, it's

It flushes up all the insects. And so there are all these birds that are obligate ant followers. In fact, there are birds called ant birds that are always found near these ant swarms. And as the ant swarm moves through the forest, all these insects come up and the birds come and eat them and the ants take them. And...

They're great if they go through your house. Where we were at the field station, we were trying to encourage the swarm to go to the kitchen to take out all the cockroaches because we knew there were like tons of cockroaches in there. We were like, just please clean it. So we were like putting out little dead ants and stuff, trying to like putting out dead moths and all these things.

Trying to lure them. It did not work at all. But it's amazing. And so the queen is inside a big swarm of ants called a bivouac. And this thing just moves through the rainforest. And where it goes, it chooses where to go. And it's just magnificent. And boy, they have these huge mandibles. The army ants just are big. They don't hurt that much.

that much compared to like fire ants and other ants certainly next to acacia ants the ones I was talking about from Africa but yeah no I love me a Costa Rican ant for sure I love that stuff this is why I haven't gone to Costa Rica like we had friends and family living there and be like come visit I was like none of your stories are compelling me to visit I can't I can't do it same with Australia too much stuff that could get in my head

You are missing out so badly to not go to those places because there's too much wildlife. Like that's like saying, I don't want to go to a concert because they're going to be too talented. Like I don't want to, I don't want to be too entertained by that stuff. You know what I mean? Like that is why you go. You want to see sloths. You want to see monkeys. You want to see tapirs. You want to see nature. It's just, and to see the ants in their habitat doing their thing is like, I don't know, man.

I have said it to spark a response in Dan. Oh, it worked. You totally got me. You baited me. I may not be able to bait ants into a kitchen, but you baited me into a ranch of what nature. Well, you tried. They just didn't go for it. I think you should have been leaving out, I don't know, Ritz crackers or something a little more appealing. Ants go to a picnic. Like, listen, I wouldn't show up for a dead cockroach, but I would show up for a piece of, you know, food.

vegan cheese, you could coerce me. Listen, it's quite a time in the world for science. And I think it has the idea of science and the idea of science doing great things for humanity has been at the forefront of our thinking probably since COVID. It feels like suddenly we had millions upon millions of

of scientists that were scanning the internet for information. And for me, it seems very unprecedented. Like this has been an interesting time for people that deny science, that don't believe in science. They think that, no, that's not what my grandfather did and that he's still alive. And how do you feel? I mean, I don't think you call yourself a scientist per se, but

Just the noise surrounding the idea of information. How do you kind of feel about that? I was very dismissive of it before COVID. And then during COVID, I realized that, oh, wait, this is the real deal. Like people who really believe that someone's putting a microchip in them when you get a vaccine and the vaccines don't work and there's a conspiracy. And there was a poll just this last November that

34% of Canadians polled said they believe that there's a cure for cancer and that scientists are withholding it. 34%. So I was very dismissive of those things and almost joked about them because I always had sort of this assumption that whenever I was talking to an audience, they were not positive.

buying into this stuff. But I think I underestimated it. And we saw with COVID-19 how much whether you wear a mask or not became a political statement much more than a health statement. And so I worry a lot about that stuff. And I'm trying my best to learn what the best approach is. Do you meet them head on? Or do you listen to them? And what is success in terms of an interaction? Do you always want to...

win the person over your side or do you try to win in small pieces? I worry a lot about it, but my general feeling is,

is that what I really want to communicate is that scientists are fun people. Scientists are curious people, usually are smart people, and they're good people. And they're trying to do good. They're trying to make the world a better place. I mean, yes, there's a diversity, but like for the most part, the people who are making vaccines are doing it because they want to make a vaccine that will save their own family as well as yours. Well, yeah, they're very motivated personally, you know, and I would think cancer would be along those lines of, I don't think there's a person I've ever met in this world. Yeah.

you know, that has not experienced the death of someone from some type of cancer. So it would behoove them to find something that works. So yeah, it is kind of a weird argument, isn't it?

It really is. But I don't know how to win the war or how to move the needle. Well, I don't think you can. Well, social media is a huge problem, right? Because if you have a view that's a little bit off to one side, social media algorithms will push you farther that way. And the YouTube tunnel will take you out that direction faster.

Instagram will do the same thing. TikTok will do the same thing. And less and less people are coming to the same water cooler for their information. So everybody's getting stuff from different places. And so you can end up way down a path and not realize it. And it's just really hard to sort of meet everybody at the common place to have a common conversation. And it's really hard to put people in a place where they're hearing an opinion they disagree with. So maybe that's a great place to launch into why

You know, common sense when you say to somebody, well, it's common sense. You're not going to bite a live cat on TikTok to get likes. Right. Do people do that?

Yeah, there seems to be a very big trend with Chinese TikTokers in particular. There's a lot of really horrible things going on that way. They're trying to get them off of TikTok, but that's not common sense. I mean, you should be able to appeal to someone's sense of reason and decency and ethical, you know, true north. But no, it's just...

It's not there. Why, Dan? Yeah. So there was a paper that you're referring to that was about why common sense isn't that common. And what they found in that research, this is a big proceedings in the National Academy of Sciences. So very good journal, very big study where they asked a whole bunch of people. Basically, they started by trying to find a list of common sense things. And so they went to a couple of different sources. They came up with lists of thousands of things that are common sense, right?

Uh, like if, uh, if putting your hand on the stove hurts, don't put your hand on the stove, you know, stuff like that. Uh, but a big range of things. And then what they did is they used an online platform to show those to people and say, is this really common sense? Do you believe this? Do you think everybody believes this? And just to try to figure out where people are at and what they found is there's really kind of two categories of common sense. Some are things that really are universally true. Like a triangle has three sides. That's common sense. And

There's no real disagreement on that one. And if somebody doesn't know that, that's kind of shocking. But that's not where the problems really tend to arise. You don't often have an argument with somebody over how many sides are on a triangle. You have more arguments about the cat TikTok thing. And in those cases, there are some...

steps before the statement that assume a certain morality or a certain worldview that not everyone agrees on. So if I say, you know, putting your hand on the stove hurts, so don't do it. You might say, well, usually that's true. But if I'm trying to like troubleshoot my stove or something like that, or I'm trying to figure out

you know, whatever, that might not necessarily be the case. Maybe that's a bad example because I just pulled that out of the air. But often when we find ourselves talking to somebody, and this goes back to if you find yourself not agreeing on something that's a basic point, maybe you've made an assumption about what the person's worldview is with respect to something else. So I assume everybody knows scientists are smart people who are trying to do good things. So why would you think they'd make a bad vaccine? It's common sense that vaccines should be safe because scientists are making it.

But maybe I'm making assumptions about the way I see scientists and assuming that other people believe in scientists. So if you're finding yourself saying something that you believe is common sense and the other person is just not meeting you there, it's probably true that you've made some kind of assumption. And so that can be a helpful way to move forward in the conversation is to take a step back and try to figure out where you missed a step. Well, I have found going through my own life, and Caitlin, maybe you found this too, both you guys, that I have surrounded myself with a like-minded group of people.

Um, and often, and COVID really kind of showed me that too. There was very, very little pushback as far as that common sense ideology that really rubbed me the wrong way. There was one or two people where I was just like, I love them. I've known them for 30 years. Um, I did sort of lose one friendship through that whole process. Um,

But I feel like looking back, it was kind of something that was coming anyway. And there was little signs there, but then it was that tipping point. But I don't know. Do you guys find that you do tend to surround yourself with like-minded, I mean, in ethics and morality and not so much politics? I mean, God forbid I bring that up at a dinner party at my house because it is a free-for-all.

Yeah. What do you think, Caitlin? Yeah, no, it's a mix. Like it's a mix for me. But it came out a little bit more during COVID like everything. But I also feel like COVID was such a scary time. And so much of misinformation is rooted in fear that I kind of feel like I got it. Like it was one of those moments where everyone's so afraid. There aren't really very many clear cut answers. You're navigating a crisis in real time. And so when a lot of people started saying, you know, maybe they're hesitant to get the vaccine. Some of the reasoning they gave sometimes was

a bit like out there for me. But other times it was just as simple as like, I don't necessarily trust the government. And I was like, well, a healthy dose of like governmental mistrust is relatable to me. And you know, now what I don't get is I was like, okay, so my, my doctor is suggesting this. I turned to my doctor and doctors for all of my health advice. So I'm going to listen to them now on like a much more individual basis. But you know, when my friends were like, well, I don't know if I trust big pharma. I was like, yeah, he kind of got me there. I don't know if I do either all the time. So some of those things started to like

bleed into what is really just a conversation you want to have with your doctor. And that became confusing. Yeah. Those conversations that are difficult. So it's easy to measure a conversation by how smooth it is, but that's not necessarily the best indicator of whether it was good for you.

Like there's some conversations that are really hard to have and they don't leave you feeling very good and they make you better. They make you a better person. And so there's a nice study. There are a couple of different studies. I'm kind of obsessed with diversity and why diversity helps people work better together. And there are studies that show that being uncomfortable because you can't quite meet on the same page with somebody, maybe they come from a different background, just that discomfort causes you to

think more carefully about what you're doing and do better work. And so when you... The easy example is, let's say you have a boardroom with a whole bunch of white men and they say, do you think this is a good idea? Yeah, we all think it's a great idea. Okay, good. Let's go. Let's do it. And then you create a boardroom with a whole bunch of people with different backgrounds. You say, is this a great idea? And somebody says, I'm not sure that is a good idea. And you go, oh, not you again. Okay, why don't you think it's a good idea? Maybe you'll bring...

fewer ideas forward. That's how I feel about Caitlin. Not you again. Well, you gotta be questioned, right? I mean, it's good for you and, but the friction helps. It does. It does. I, and like, I have more friends who, you know, I'll talk about differing viewpoints with them in a different and more sensitive way. I mean, my, my grandfather had a great saying that was a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. And I thought it's kind of true. Like,

You know, feeling like you're telling someone this against their will. Like I kind of I'm just more of the mind where like if you have a receptive, open conversation, then it doesn't necessarily mean you're all going to leave on the same page. But you have a greater chance of perhaps being there down the line, like plant a little idea and then go, OK, maybe. And if I'm not like pressuring someone, then they'll just come to the conclusion on their own in a more open space.

So there was a study that just came out where they used an AI chatbot, ChatGPT, actually a predecessor of the one that we use now. They use ChatGPT to talk to people about conversations

controversial topics. One was climate change and one was the Black Lives Matter movement. And people had, they filled out a bunch of surveys and then they talked to just eight back and forth conversation. All they had to do was stay on topic. They could say whatever they wanted to the chatbot. And when it came to the climate change thing, what they found is that the 25% of people that were least open to climate change being true, they were sort of the farthest

of the whole sample, the people that were sort of the extreme climate change deniers, they did not enjoy the conversation at all. On a scale of one to five, they rated it an average of 0.5. They hated talking to the GPT about it, but when the conversation was finished, their views were shifted slightly. In the Black Lives Matter, it was the same thing. People that had more racist views,

They hated the conversation, but they were shifted by having had it. And what's really interesting about that study is that if you look at the actual text that ChatGPT chose when it was talking to those people, for the climate change one, it kept pushing back with data. It kept saying, what you're saying doesn't fit with this. You're missing this point. You're missing this point because there's so much overwhelming scientific data to show the climate change is real.

But with Black Lives Matter, it's not really about facts. It's about values. There are facts, of course, that can support it. But the approach that Chet GPT took was very different. It said, look, I don't think we're going to be on the same page here. Let's stop talking about that and move on to something else. And both of those approaches, which were both difficult...

people in the conversation did not like, but it did shift their views. And it just shows that the pain of those difficult conversations, however they go, does shift people away from their extreme views. I'm usually that person that I can be quite heated and quite stubborn in the midst of a discussion when I feel like I'm on the right side of things. But when I go away and have a chance to think about a person's perspective, I can't do it in real time. I'm terrible at that.

I need to, and I do a lot of my business decisions this way too. Like I just had a go around with my manager, oh, 10 days ago about something that he wanted me to do. I was adamant about it. I'm just like, no. He said, why? I said, I'm not interested, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, we hung up and he goes, well, that's fine. He says, I think you're missing an opportunity and I just don't understand. But he didn't, he didn't, you know, get on me. Like he wasn't mean about it. He just said, I don't understand. Yeah.

And then we moved on to something else. And then a half an hour later, I phoned him back and I said, okay, I'll do it. And he goes, he said, did you hit your head again? And, uh, but I, I went away and I thought, listen, I'm going to do this, but I'm in the moment. And I think that's perhaps where there's a disconnect when you have people in a room, which is not a bot. There's something about a bot that's

you're more apt to engage in something that you, I mean, obviously they knew it wasn't a real person, correct? That's right. Yep. They knew it was chat GPT. Yep. Okay. And this other point that our friend of the show, Julie Van Rosendahl brought up to me a few weeks ago, we were having a discussion back and forth and she just said, I love voice notes. I love sending voice notes to people and then having them respond in a voice note because instead of

sitting there talking to someone and you're not really listening to them because you're very concerned with what your rebuttal is going to be. So your mind is already busy thinking up, what am I going to say back? So a lot of what they're saying, there's gaps in it for your brain. You're just getting little pieces of it. So when I listen to a voicemail,

Or something called Voxer, that's an app that is kind of like a walkie-talkie that I love to use as well. And so I listen to the person speaking to me, then I hit the record on my side and send a message back. And I have solved more petty little disagreements using that kind of method than...

ever sitting down with a cup of coffee in front of somebody. I don't know. Yeah, that's really interesting. I think when you're in a conversation, part of it is you're managing the conversation, right? You're trying to make eye contact and you're thinking about, you know, is somebody coming? Is someone at the door? All that stuff. And when you have time to reflect afterwards, you sort of remove all that stuff. My wife and I often...

pass each other. We call it passing each other because we'll have a conversation where we disagree and then we'll go away and then we'll come back and we've swapped sides because she convinced me and I convinced her. And then we have to sort of fight, figure out where the middle ground is, which I think is one of the charming things about my relationship with my wife. I really like that quirk that happens to us. But it's definitely true that sometimes the thinking is after the talking. It's hard to think while you're talking. What did your parents do, Dan? What did your mom and dad do?

Oh, what did they do? No, my mom is... What didn't they do? Yeah, well, my mom is a writer. So she's written a couple of novels and she also does a lot of editing work. And so she's always helped me with my writing. And she's just a great person, funny, smart. And I talk to her very frequently. So she's just been a great influence that way. Hi, Dan Riskin's mom. Hi, my mom.

And my dad worked as a lawyer, but he's also a consultant. And so he does speaking gigs and stuff. And he helps law firms change their business. So they're doing stuff that's more in line with what they want to be doing than what they are doing. And so public speaking is a big thing for him. And I've taken that on, following in his footsteps a little bit that way. Yeah, you've obviously been very kind of inspired. And their parenting, you know, obviously their skills as parents.

just individual human beings. I did a lot of things, but do you have siblings? I do. I do. I have a brother and a sister. And so my sister does a little bit of acting work and other stuff in Edmonton. And my brother, unfortunately, is also a lawyer. So he's a bit of a disappointment to me. I was hoping he could do better, but I like to pick on him. Well, this leads me into one of the other things that is sitting here in front of me is more siblings means worse mental health for teens. Yeah.

So I also had two siblings. Caitlin is an only child. But my grandmother, my mom's mom, was one of 17 children. Oh, wow. And then she only had two kids. So obviously my grandmother was like, fuck that. I'm having two children and that's it. So do you want to tell us a little bit about that and what their conclusions were or the study that sort of came up with that?

This was looking at the mental health of kids. I think they were 12 to 14 years old and they had two different data sets because

You want to know if it's cultural or if it's really part of our biology that having siblings has an impact on mental health. And so basically they had these kids fill out a whole bunch of questionnaires about how they're doing and their mental health. And they were able to show that for kids in the States, when you have more siblings, especially close to your age, your mental health tends to be poorer. Okay.

than when you don't have siblings. And if they're farther away from you in age, it's not as severe, but when they're very close to you in age, it can be really tough. And then they looked at a data set from China and the average number of kids in a family in China is much lower because they had that policy for a long time where you were only allowed to have one kid. And so on average, there are fewer kids in the house, but they saw the same trend there where if you have siblings close in age, it is harder on you. And the fact that they were able to get the same result from these two different

places really, I think, drives home the idea that this is just a part of being human is that having siblings is tough. And the short, quick takeaway is if you want to be happy, don't have any siblings. And if you want your kids to be happy, don't give many siblings. But I think I'm invested in the opposite. Caitlin is grinning. Yeah, Caitlin's happy. And I feel like this is bad.

Right. Okay, good. Well, I was planning to have two and then we had twins on the second round. So that was a big surprise to us. So we have three in the house and there are fireworks on plenty of days. But I think that sometimes that sort of friction, just like those hard conversations that I was alluding to earlier about, you know, when you're having a hard conversation with somebody about a difficult topic, you can improve you. I think that those tough interactions among the kids are going to pay dividends down the road. There's neat data showing that when kids start kindergarten,

If they have siblings, they do better on a whole bunch of metrics. Socially, it's just a much easier transition for them because you're used to being around other kids, not having a whole bunch of grownups who interact with you a different way. And then the other side is that there's a neat study that shows, and of course, let's not personalize this, but people who grew up with siblings...

So the divorce rate is lower. So if you didn't have any siblings, you're more likely to have a divorce and you can't help but sort of think that maybe that's because you're not used to not getting your way. And if you grew up with siblings, you're very used to not getting your way. So whether it's bad in the long term is hard to say. But I think for teens in the moment, it should be very validating that it really does have an impact on mental health and they do deserve support.

Because siblings can be super frustrating and it's real. You learn a lot about socializing when you have siblings. My brother was three years older than me.

and eight years older than my little brother. And we had very different relationships. Patrick really, really didn't know my older brother because he was long since gone in school. And I was just behind him in things, you know, oh, I had your brother for English. I hope you're not as terrible as he is. And my little brother, Pat, didn't, he didn't go through any of that. But yeah, I would imagine, I mean, I can't imagine being in a, in a

family with 17 kids. I mean, you still see these large families. My friend Nadine's got 11

Wow. Siblings. Yeah. Wow. There's two boys and nine girls. My dad's from a family of eight and my mom's from a family of 10, and then they both had one. Yeah, yeah. It's a reaction. Well, maybe birth control became available to that next set of generations. But no, seriously, when you talk about science, women had options. I'm sure that my great-grandmother, Ernestine, she died at 46 years old, giving birth to her last baby.

And I think she was very glad to just see the light and run for it.

But yeah, it was hard times, especially when you were so fertile. I mean, let's put it that way. I mean, every time she was always pregnant. Yeah. I mean, and you look globally as women get more control over their bodies. They're having fewer kids. They choose to have fewer kids and it's better for the economy. It's better for a whole bunch of things. So empowering women is a really, really powerful policy to make the world a better place for a whole bunch of different reasons. How do you feel about young...

especially we were talking about, you know, women for a moment there. We're not seeing as many women going into the biologies and the sciences and the physics and things like that. And have you, when you were going to school, was there sort of a disparity between how many female and male students they were going into what you were studying? When my younger son, one of the twins, was...

two or something like that. He was, I forget how old he was, but he was introduced to somebody who was a male doctor and he said, that's impossible. Doctors can't be men. Because he had never seen an archetype of a male doctor because

Our doctor is female, but also like all the toys, you doctor this, doctor that, you've got Dr. Barbie, all that stuff. Like he had just been exposed to a zillion examples of female doctors and not a male doctor. So there's a pendulum and it's swinging and that's interesting. But I think that what's showing for biology, especially right now, is that a lot of women go into the program, but then they leave.

And when you look at who's getting the PhDs, it tends to be skewed towards men and not women as much. And I think there are a whole bunch of different pieces of that. And a lot of them are getting better and getting improved. You know, just exposure as a kid and believing that you can do whatever you want, regardless of gender. I think that's going well.

But there are some realities right now in a lot of careers about expectations and about wanting to have a family. And when that sort of, sometimes the years where you're supposed to be making the most advances on your career are the years when you would probably want to be starting a family. And so that can create conflicts as well. It's a really complicated subject and it's one that people spend a lot of energy on. I think the ways that I can help in sort of my public talking about science is I always try to,

I highlight when there is a woman scientist involved. I often try to use she language or they language, but mostly she language when I'm talking about a scientist in the hypothetical. And when I give talks, I'm giving a talk actually in my son's class tomorrow. He's a grade seven and I'm going to come to his school and I'm going to talk about bats.

And whenever I talk about bats and I talk about doing science with bats, I always make a point of having a slide that shows a woman scientist. And it's really easy because there are tons of them. Oh, I love that, Dan. You've been thoughtful about that. Those, I think, is what changes viewpoints of young minds. I mean, seeing somebody, oh, there I am. There I am on the screen. I can do that. There's a lady.

And it's not like my mom sitting home drinking wine. There's room for that too. And I do my part by sitting at home and drinking wine too, just to even that playing field. But some of the scientists that I most admire, like there's a woman at the American Museum of Natural History. She's a curator of mammals there in New York, Nancy Simmons. And I've been intimidated, terrified of her my entire career because she's so smart and so good. And more and more, our interactions are warm interactions.

And she's always been so kind to me, but I always feel like it's like, you know, Connor McDavid coming down and throwing a puck to you over the glass. You know, every time it's like, I'm blessed to catch a puck that she throws my way. But most recently, so the book that we talked about last time I wrote that kids. Yeah. Yeah. The fruit bat. Um,

Their PBS is doing a TV show that is going to highlight that book. And as part of that TV show, they needed somebody to read it. And they got Nancy Simmons at the American Museum of Natural History to read it. I didn't know any of this. And so I went to a bat meeting in Winnipeg and all these bat scientists from all around the world came and I bump into her and I'm like, Oh, hey, Nancy Simmons. She's, you know, my hero. And she says, I just spent a day with a film crew reading your bat on screen. I was like, what? And so for me, I'm like,

I mean, it was, I feel a religious piece. Like I'm just so honored. I did like capital H, capital O, like through the whole thing. Like I am so honored that she has even acknowledged that I wrote a kid's book about bats. She said nice things about it, but she took a day to read this thing on screen. And so- I love those moments in life that reality and fantasy kind of connect. Yeah.

Yeah. And so for me, you know, women in science, it's not just like this. Oh, we got to make sure we get women in here too. It's like the people I admire more than anyone. And so when I can get that across when I'm talking about bats and show like, here's a picture of one of my heroes, you know, doing her work on bats and then just continue on. I think it accurately sort of reflects where I am on that, what my beliefs are. Before I let you go, Dan Ruskin.

I want to talk to you about your feelings on where science, where biology, where we're headed. These are really complicated times. It's very divisive. But I think one thing most people do have common sense about and they agree about is the care of our planet and our fellow travelers on it. Like as much as I can be very...

disappointed and frustrated with animal welfare and animal agriculture in particular. I feel like there's a real shift and I'm wondering what your take is on that. I mean,

You always hear these statistics about people changing the way they eat and eating less meat and being more conscious and not thinking having 8 million chickens in a barn, laying 200 eggs a year when they're really supposed to be laying maybe 14. Do you think we're headed in the right direction? And is there any hope for us to turn this ship around? I know it's a huge question, but from your point of view, looking at animals the way you have over the last...

25 years. Yeah, I do feel hope. Good. And I do think we are...

Things are getting better. I think awareness is improving. Turning the ship around and timelines. I think there's going to be damage. We've missed the boat on turning the ship around. How's that for a mixed metaphor? I like it. Our fight against climate change is at a stage where- If your ship doesn't come in, swim out to it. There it is. If your ship about turning the ship doesn't come in because you missed the boat-

Then, yeah, I think when it comes to climate change, like we missed our opportunity to have zero impact, but we have certainly got a couple of different options in front of us in terms of how much impact we do create. So it's not like a fork in the road. It's a braided river and we are choosing where we go every day. And so you have to have hope. You have to inspire people. I see really great advances on shifting the way we feed everybody and improvements on that.

And, you know, there are all kinds of different reasons to be wary of factory farming. One, of course, is what you talk about, the welfare of the animals. But another one is just disease risk.

Oh, here comes my dog just back from a walk with the dogs. Hi, Freya. Okay. Hi, pooch. Hi, yes, you had a good time. Yes, your welfare is just fine. Well, how is Freya going to clean herself? We didn't even get to that. By rubbing herself on my shirt. Yeah. That's the answer to that. I'm glad you feel hopeful. I think people care more than they not care. And that has changed with me because I was for a while like everyone's an asshole. No one gives a shit.

But I feel like there are some alarms going off and people are like,

yeah, I am going to change the way I do this. No pressure. What is one thing a person can do to help the environment and to help the world around them? One thing, because everyone's always asking, I don't know what to do. Eat one less burger a week. If you're going to be a vegetarian, great. But if you don't want to be a vegetarian, fine. If you eat one less burger a week, you will make a huge impact and you will also...

Just water. The amount of water it takes to make a burger, just giving water to the cow and then transporting the cow and all that stuff. If you eat one fewer burger a week, you will decrease your personal water footprint by more than if you stop bathing for that whole week. More water goes into that one burger than all of your bath and shower water for a whole week. So there's one, just one less burger a week. That's perfect. That's it.

That's fantastic. I'm going to leave it there. One less burger a week, one less chicken burger a week, one less sausage. Red meat is really the magic sauce. I mean, if you really want, I mean, yeah, but the biggest impact is, is beef. So if you want to go from red meat to white meat, that's an improvement. If you want to be a vegetarian, that's great. That is also an improvement. But again, like it's like all these conversations, if you tell people,

And it's not all or nothing, is it, Dan? It's not all or nothing. It's not all or nothing. You can do a little bit to improve things without having to change everything. And who knows? I mean, it may change over time. I...

I was not on red meat and then I was on chicken and now I don't eat any meat. I eat fish, but I don't eat any terrestrial vertebrates. You know, who knows? No, I'm with you. Well, listen, Dan Riskin, as always, you are an absolute pleasure to have on the show. And we get so many great comments when you're on, Dan, is an evolutionary biologist. And if your daughter wants to go into that, I think.

she's going in the right direction. Television personality, producer, host of many different things and just a really good positive voice for people and animals and the planet. And you're so interesting, Dan. I'm so grateful to have you on the show. I hope you'll come back and see us sometime. I always love talking to you and I'm a huge fan. So thanks very much. Thank you, Dan Riskin. Thank you.

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You're back listening to the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. I'm Jan Arden. We're with Caitlin Green. Dan Riskin is always so fantastic to have on the show. There's just so much insightful. He makes it very easy to, like you said, to understand, like the average person. Yeah, he's good at that. He's good at explaining things. I'm like, you should be a teacher. He could be a teacher. He would make students very interested in whatever he was saying. Yeah, he goes out of his way to make us be able to understand like the whole thing.

thing. I mean, I'm glad that I didn't wipe out all my anthills because I'm telling you, they're probably going to save my life. What if someone comes in to burglarize this place and the ants go, she didn't kill us. Let's group together, grab your stuff, everybody. Let's take that guy down. So that would be really fantastic. So we,

We would be remiss not to mention the Grammys. I know they'll be a little bit past now. We're pre-taping this show, but this past weekend, the Grammys were very historic. Joni Mitchell at 80 years old, I believe, made her first performance. She has won Grammys, but has never performed at the Grammys. So it's never too late. And it was a haunting version of Both Sides Now.

And then like, what were some of your favorite moments? I love the Tracy Chapman singing with Luke and doing Fast Car, which is now a number one hit 37 years later. I think that was the highlight for me because I also felt like he didn't walk on it and

treat it like this was sort of his moment. It was really like she was given the opportunity to start things off and to run with it. And you could see she was receiving the audience's reaction to her even just being there. And it was just, it was really powerful because she's such a quiet, understated, like not fame hungry musician. And she really seems like such a real artist. And so to see her back and to have her come to the Grammys, because like she's Tracy Chapman, she doesn't have to come to the Grammy.

She's like, I could have just been at home. But I thought that that was a real highlight. I thought Billie Eilish did a great job. That's an artist who I don't find myself drawn to listening to her in my free time that much. But I mean, she has a fantastic voice and she always sounds like she does on her albums. She can just sit there with her brother Phineas and just do her performance. And she's never really disappointed. So I thought they did a good job.

Who else did I really like? I mean, I love Dua Lipa's opener. I mean, she's such a fantastic dancer. She's such a fantastic performer. She is an artist who can fill a dance floor and she just has high energy. She just has everything you want in a pop star. She's so iconic. So I really, I loved seeing her as well. There was definitely some really amazing moments. There was a few little moments. And I'm going to say right now, I had put up a post that Taylor Swift's

exchange with Celine was a little bit cringeworthy. And I know it was lots of adrenaline and there was a lot going on, but she didn't really take the moment to acknowledge Celine. It was just she got the trophy and turned. And apparently backstage they had pictures, they had shared hugs and words and stuff like that. So I took it down because I'm like, oh my God, the Swifties. And I didn't mean to be judgmental of Taylor. I think I was really concerned about Celine. I was just like, oh God. Oh,

She didn't seem to really have. And it wasn't her moment. It was Taylor's moment. So I got schooled and they told people told me to shut up, which I have. You're not alone in thinking that, though. That was a big talking point from last night was, you know, was there sort of enough acknowledgement on stage when that happened? Because you think back previously when Miley Cyrus received her one of her two Grammys.

she was given that by Mariah Carey. And she talked about how she was stuck in the rain and in traffic. And she was said, I wasn't, I was less concerned about missing out on the award than I would be about missing out on receiving the award from Mariah Carey. Like she was just so like, she was bowled over by just being given her award by Mariah. So I think some people kind of were thinking that maybe in contrast. Yeah. It,

Precisely. And, you know, I do think people tend to like, you know, you're looking for stuff. But the other thing I thought of too was maybe Taylor wasn't necessarily certain like how much physical contact she should have with her. Like, are you going to run up and like hug Celine Dion? Like, you know, but there could have been more acknowledgement in the speech for sure. You know, stuff happens. She's human. I don't think it means anything in terms of her not like respecting the legacy. No, but

But just the optics, the optics, the optics weren't great. She may very well regret it. Like she may just be like, oh my God, guys, same. Like I wish I had said more to her in that moment, respecting the fact that this is someone. I've had lots of those moments in my life. So yeah, like I bet I'm retracting it.

I take it back. I'm a fan of Celine Dion, a fan of Taylor Swift. To see two powerful women up there a few generations apart was a really, really great moment. And I was so happy to see Celine looking well. And I thought she looked so beautiful. And I thought she looked so healthy. And having her son walk her out was really kind of an emotional moment. And then the Jay-Z thing.

Jay-Z got some kind of award given to him. It was a Dr. Dre Global Impact Award, I believe. Yes, that's what it was. Yeah. And like not, I mean, he has had such an insane global impact. This is a man who has been, you know, pushing the boundaries of things on the music and creative side, but also on the business side for a long time. Yes. So he did receive that award. Huge.

Blue Ivy, his daughter's on stage with him. I loved seeing that. But yeah, he shouted out Beyonce's Oversight. She's never won Album of the Year, but I think he said she has won the most. 34? Yeah. The most Grammys of any woman. Yes, I think that was it. But yet she's never won Album of the Year, which I believe is sort of a highly coveted Grammy that many artists want. But listen, people vote. People that

our Academy members vote. So, I mean, that's just the way it is. You know, people vote for who they're going to vote for. And every year, you know, Beyonce is up against a new, uh,

powerful, you know, young women, whether it's Billie Eilish or Taylor Swift or, you know, whoever that army of who's ever on top of the pile that particular year, it's hard to knock them out because you're thinking, well, they deserve it too. Yeah. And, you know, it's a known fact that awards don't always quote unquote get it right.

And this is part of awards season is that you talk about who was nominated, the snubs, the surprise wins, the who went, who wore what, who did what, who was the date. Like this is the whole fanfare around the entertainment industry in general. So it's what makes awards awards special.

And I don't, I think for many artists, Taylor Swift acknowledged this in one of her acceptance speeches that for her, the reward is the work. Like the work is the award and the reward that she loves. Receiving the award, she feels great. But she said, I received the same level of satisfaction when I complete a song or when I finished like, you know, storyboarding out a music video. And Beyonce is also that artist. Like, do you think Album of the Year is great? Sure. Like, but

I don't remember the awards that anyone's won, if that makes sense. Like I remember that Beyonce had like the greatest Coachella performance of all time. I remember that her tour, I remember the experience of listening to Lemonade like front to back. I remember like pouring over her music videos and the detail of her performances and

And like how much she's changed as an artist. I mean, that's what sits with people and that's what you're remembered for. So I couldn't rifle off all the awards she's won. I couldn't rifle off all the awards. The music, the music itself is such a gift to all of us. Yeah. I think that's why people eye roll when someone's like, oh, it should have been this person in this category for this thing. It's like the average person doesn't care about that. And so I feel like those things ring kind of empty. Like, yes, I get why he would be annoyed on behalf of his wife. But at the same time, I kind of want it to be like, hey, none of us care.

We're just fans of hers and I don't think any fan cares. Does it take away more from Beyonce? I mean, does it have the opposite effect of what he thinks it's going to do when he gets up there to say these kinds of things? Being protective, being proud. Yeah, I do too. I think it has the opposite. To go up there and to have grace and to say, good for you. I don't know. There's something about grace in winning and in losing things.

that really people watch for those kind of nuances. I mean, I certainly was, but you know, lesson learned, but I'm, and he's up there like she's, Oh, well she's won 34 Grammys, but she didn't get this one. I was like, not a relatable sentiment. And some of you people don't even deserve to be in the category. Like I'm like, Holy shit.

I mean, I felt like he's a fellow Sagittarian. He's just blunt, probably above all else. And he did say, when I get nervous, I tell the truth. So like, this is truthfully how he felt. I don't know that it's everyone's objective truth, but it is clearly how he feels. And so he acknowledged it. So I didn't take it too seriously. But I also just, I don't think it matters. That's not what, at least I as a Beyonce fan, that's not what I remember about her. I mean, I don't care what she wins or doesn't win. She's just been this crazy change-making, incredible once-in-a-lifetime artist, all the same. Superb.

Well, listen, it has been an unbelievable year for music. I think 2023 was absolutely incredible.

The world changed how we listen to it. I think streaming has changed so much. I think the, the arrows tour has been a game changer and how we look at, you know, artists, how they're making their way around the world, business people, you know, people that are truly like business people that are changing how the music industry works like that one person can do that. So it was interesting watching so many things unfold. Interesting seeing Tracy Chapman after 37 years, having a number one song, um,

There were so many great performances on the show. And there was a lot of joy and a lot of happiness. And nobody got punched or slapped, so it wasn't like the Oscars.

That was really good. The Oscars have yet to pass. We have them coming up in March, so we'll see. Maybe someone's going to get clocked. I don't think Will Smith will ever be in an award show again. I don't think he's allowed to be. I think he's been banned for 10 years. I mean, he should know well enough not to bother for a while. Anyway, just congratulations to all the musicians out there, never mind the ones that are nominated or the ones that won anything, but to the thousands and thousands of people that make our lives better every single day.

You know, it's so fun finding new things when you're streaming. If you like that, you're going to like this. I've made so many discoveries on all those platforms, whether it's Pandora or Amazon or Spotify or iTunes. I have found things that I've literally gone and downloaded everything they've ever done.

I don't know. I'm really late to the Agnes Obel party. Agnes Obel. Oh, I don't know her. And O-B-E-L. But it's just like, I'm not going to go on and on. You've been listening to the Jan Arden podcast. Caitlin is here. Sarah is teaching. She's teaching a university course.

And we're really proud of her, but she's not here. And thank you for tuning in. Thank you for subscribing. Thank you for the voice notes. I don't know if we'll include any this week because me and Caitlin don't know how to do it. But when Sarah's back, I think we did have some voice notes last week. Yeah, I don't know what button to press, but I do want to say that if you follow us on Instagram, which you should be, then you can just leave us a voice note directly by DM. Hey, Dan, it's Mel Culling from Toronto. I was sad to hear that...

You were disappointed that not a lot of people have called in and left you voice messages. As somebody who listens to your podcast, you know the podcast queues up automatically, so I don't go on to look up these things. But when I heard that a couple of times on your podcast, I set a reminder in my calendar to leave Jan a voicemail. So I think you got a lot of other people thinking about leaving you personal voicemails or messages

or messages and thinking that lots of other people are doing it already. In any case, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your honesty and your kindness about learning to be a human. I'm trying to do that for myself. Anyways, I love your podcast.

Keep chatting, ladies. I really appreciate all the good conversations. So it's cool. We like having your voices on the show. It's fun. And you can just leave us sort of any feedback or thoughts on the Grammys or thoughts on our lovely bat-oriented guest, Dan. Any criticisms? Not for me, though. I don't want to. Not for Caitlin, but for me, certainly. God knows I make enough mistakes. But listen, look after yourselves out there. Thanks for listening. And we will see you next time here on the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. Toodly-doo.

This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.