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Welcome to the Jan Arden podcast and show. Just a couple of little cleanups before Caitlin Green and I get started on our wonderful show today with Dan Riskin. We had the beautiful, wonderful, fascinating, indigenous, inspiring singer, creator, director, producer, Buffy St. Marie. We had a beautiful conversation with her, but you know what? It's the National Day of Truth and Reconciliation next week, and we thought it would behoove us
to share our conversation with Buffy, with you guys on a day that really is meaningful and that I know Buffy would really appreciate being part of. So this week is,
He's with us today. Dan Riskin has just showed up and I'm going to sing to you, Dan, because that's what I do. I am way out of my league if I'm going to have a sing-off with you. Let's not do that. Dan, didn't Caitlin tell you we're doing the whole interview in singing? So, Dan, tell me about your life. No, we're not going to do that. Jen, you once did a version of...
of If It Be Your Will by Leonard Cohen that I listened to about four billion times. It is one of my favorite poems by him, and your version of it really got me in the heart. So thank you for that. I just wanted to get that out of the way. Just amazing. Like, you're so good, and that song is so powerful. I'm not a religious man, but it is such a song that gets that across.
in a way that just, it takes me apart. So anyway, thank you for that. It's my greatest, most favorite Leonard Cohen story. I was recording it in Los Angeles. I was shocked that I was even invited to be on that album because it was a tribute album to Leonard. And I said to the producer, Leonard doesn't ever come to the studio. He goes, oh God, no, no, no. Don't worry about that. I don't even think he's in Los Angeles. I have no idea.
who effing shows up to the studio while I'm singing, if it be your will, that I don't really know at all. I'm trying to learn it. I'm listening to like him singing it. I'm listening to some other people singing it. I see this figure and I knew it was Leonard Cohen, little cap, tweed jacket. And it was him. And he cut my, he took one of my hands. Like he's a handshaker that cups your hand. Like his other hand went around my hand. And I felt like,
I just felt overwhelmed. And he said something to me, Dan, I don't know what it was. Could have been anything. I don't really, I really honest to God don't remember anything.
He thanked me for doing this. He said something very other softly thing. And then he drew on a little plastic guitar that he had his daughter run across the street and get a fake little guitar that I have framed. My dad framed it. And he, his daughter drew a picture of a beautiful naked woman on the back of this little mini fake guitar. And then he signed it to me.
And he said, you know, thank you so much. And then he later sent me a beautiful sterling silver knife from Tiffany's with my name engraved on it and a card that said, I've listened to If It Be Your Will over and over and it has just, it will always stay with me.
You and Leonard, thank you, are the only two people that have ever liked that song. Oh, no, that's not true. I'm sure many more people have liked it. But there's something about that song that is, I mean, the lyrics are, it's very Leonard Cohen. I mean, it just takes you apart. And the more you listen to it, the deeper you fall into it. But yeah, your version was on, I don't remember if I had a CD or a tape or whatever. Who knows what it was? But I listened to it very many times. You probably have.
had a cassette, Dan. You know, you're not getting any younger. You probably had it on cassette or on the 8-track. It wasn't an 8-track. Okay, it wasn't an 8. It was the early 90s, wasn't it? It was like 95, I think, or something like that. Yeah, when music peaked.
Well, listen, Dan, we're already well on our way into this podcast. Caitlin Green is here. This is the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. I'm Jan Arden. Dan Riskin is our guest today. Caitlin, we discussed this. Do we let Dan introduce himself and tell us what he does? Because if you go to Wikipedia, you get things like...
Well, no, an evolutionary biologist. But I know you're a television personality. You've done so much writing. You're a gifted, gifted writer, for one thing. Your columns are funny, thought-provoking, funny.
gobsmackingly interesting, outrageous sometimes. I can't imagine the comments you get. So Dan Riskin, what do you do? I've given the people your name. What do you think it is that you do? I'm a bat scientist and I spend some of my time studying bats, but less and less. And I spend more of my time trying to make science accessible to people that might not think science is for them. And so I appear on the radio, I appear on TV, and I just try to get across the beauty of it, the fun of it, and
the way that it makes the world a more beautiful place. And that's afforded me the opportunity to get outside my little bat thing and learn about other things from asteroids to dogs to who knows what. And it's just what I enjoy doing. And so I try to bring science to people. I do that through books. I do that through TV appearances and other stuff. And now I'm doing it with you.
you. Speaking of books, you do have a children's book called Fiona the Fruit Bat. And I would be reluctant and reticent to not tell our listeners that right away. And we will make sure that that information of where you how you get this book that Dan has in his hands, Fiona the Fruit Bat, beautiful illustrations by Rachel Chuchi.
Okay, I just wanted to leave that to you because I was headed somewhere that nobody wanted me to go. It's hard because the spelling is very confusing. But yes, I have it in my hands because I was just reading it as we got started. I love that. It's the story of a little bat who is, she's grown up, it's time for her to take her first flight, but she's scared because it's too dark.
And she has to find a secret hidden inside herself, which is echolocation, which will help her go out and discover the world. And it's a metaphor for all the scary things we ask kids to do, right? Like when kids were going to the dentist, like, what? I've never gone to the dentist. Or you're getting a haircut. What? I'm getting a haircut.
And you have to do something you've never done. And everybody around you is saying, it's easy. You'll be fine. But you have to figure that out for yourself as a kid. And so for this bat, that experience is what happens. And what's fun about echolocation is that it's by listening to her own voice that she finds the power and the confidence to leave the cave and fly. There's a lot of lessons there. Yeah. It's got many layers. It's like an onion, this one. But yeah, thanks for mentioning it. It's a book I'm really happy with, really proud of, and I hope kids can get it in their hands. Well,
they are going to be because we're going to have it in the show notes. Fiona, the fruit bat, beautiful illustrations. And you know what? We need some positive messages out there. I think we all doubt ourselves. And certainly when I was a kid, I still feel like, and Caitlin, you were an only child as well. So you can relate to this sometimes. Not that I was an only child, but I felt that way because my brother was older. I was like really smack dab in the middle. And I felt like I was raising myself sometimes. And I was in rural California.
I was in a rural community that we had bats. They always tried to steal our little birdies whenever we played badminton out in the yard. It would take a matter of 60 seconds for the bats to start literally playing badminton with us.
And going after, what do you call it? A birdie going back and forth? Yeah, they call it a birdie. They don't call it a bat. But yeah, the bat's going after the bird. The bat's going after the birdie. But I was fascinated by them. You know, once in a while, you get to see one hanging on the side of the house. And I have a bat resting house on my home. Oh, nice. Nice. I bought it and I did the research to where to hang it up.
It's probably all wrong. No, it's probably all right. It's probably all right. I have it there for them to have a sleep. That's perfect. So I have, I I'm from Alberta, like you are. And, uh, there's a lake up near Edmonton where I would go as a kid. It wasn't our cabin, but our friends had a cabin there and they knew I was into bats when I was in high school and I was on my way towards being a bat biologist. And so they said, well, what should we do, Dan? How can we encourage bats? And I said, let's get a bat house. So we bought a bat house and,
And we read all the literature like, okay, it's got to be at least two meters off the ground. Done. It's got to be facing south. Done. It's got to be painted black. Done. All the things that it said to do, we did. We got zero bats. The next year we got zero more bats. And no bats ever found this thing. But yet the people on that side of the lake all started like, well, what do you got there? Oh, a bat house. I'm going to get a bat house. Where should I put it, Dan? And so everybody on that side of the lake has a bat house in the right place, painted the right color, facing the right way. There are no bats in any of them.
And then you can paint it black, but who knows if the bat's old. I didn't do that, but I'm going to get...
I'm going to do that. I missed, I missed, I didn't get that memo. There's a drunk guy on the other side of the lake who had a bat house, but he put it on the wrong side of the tree. He put it way too low. It was facing the wrong direction and he did not paint it black and it is full of bats. So the bats don't read the literature is the problem. That's just, that's our political climate right now. Those of us who are trying so hard and we're not getting any bats. Yeah. Well, Albertans are contrarians. I don't know what that means. Bats are among them, I guess.
Tell me how you go about choosing the things you write about. I mean, you have a degree in zoology. Is that correct? Yeah. I'm so jealous, Dan. I don't even know where to begin with my heartfelt, earnest envy of this path that you've taken. And people always think, oh, you wanted to be a singer. I didn't. That's just what happened in my life. I made up songs, but...
Tell me about the zoology part of your life. Obviously, your love of animals plays into that. But what does that entail? Like you go to school and you take a degree in zoology, right? Yeah. So when I was in Edmonton growing up, in high school, they had a class where you had to read a book. And I wasn't a big reader. I wasn't a big student. I wasn't that interested. And my mom and I happened to be at the museum in Alberta or in Edmonton, the Provincial Museum of Alberta in Edmonton.
And we were in the gift shop. She said, pick any book you want. You can read it in school. And so I looked and there was a book on bats. And I thought, well, maybe they'll be gross. Maybe there'll be some disgusting story in here. And so I got this book about bats by a guy named Fenton.
And I read it in class and it was full of stories you could never talk about at the dinner table. Like it poop. Yes, fine. But also penis stories like how big a bat's penis is and how the male mates from behind the female, but she's got skin between her ankles and he has to be able to reach from like
below her ankles all the way up to her vagina with his big long penis. And how when some bats are flying, you can see. And I'm in high school reading this like, this is unreal. Like, I love biology. This is what it's all about. And so I felt like I was getting away with something reading this book. Who needs National Geographic when you've got bats? Exactly. Exactly. And so I thought I'd gotten away with something reading this book. And then anytime I had to do like any kind of report or something, I was like, well, I'll do it on bats because I read that book back, you know, a couple of weeks back. And so
In the end, I just ended up drifting, like you described for yourself, just being curious about different things. The bat thing just kept coming up as an option. Eventually, I sent a letter to the guy who wrote the book. He said, yeah, come do a master's with me. Then I joined his lab. Within a month,
I was in Costa Rica catching bats. And once that happens, it's all over because it's like just nature right in your face. It's better than National Geographic by a long shot. How are the bats doing, Dan? Like the bat populations? I know people often, you know, the farmers are always saying, well, they sure keep the mosquitoes down and they are great for the bugs. And I mean, I always heard that growing up as a kid. My dad talked like that. My grandmother said, we had lots of bats and they were sure they were great out. Anyway,
So how are they doing in general? Are they dwindling? Are they doing okay? Bats in North America have two big challenges. One is wind farms. Wind farms are great for lots of reasons. They're helping against climate change, but...
Sometimes the wind turbines chop up bats and that's not great because the bats are following these wind corridors and they, as they go through, they seem to have this behavior where they like really tall things and checking them out. And so they end up not just passing past these turbines, but like flying around them and getting too close to the blades and getting smacked. And so sometimes,
People are coming up with solutions to this, like turning the turbines off at night when the bats are going through, you know, reducing their use during migration season. So we're working on solutions to that, but that is a challenge for them. And it's hard to know for those bats how their populations are doing because they roost. Those are species that roost all by themselves in trees. And so they're impossible to count. And so we don't have a good answer for that. And then the other thing that North American bats are facing is a disease called white nose syndrome, which is a fungus that grows on them when they're in caves.
That's a fungus that was, it's a naturally occurring fungus in caves in Europe, but somebody accidentally brought it over in 2006 and then it's been spreading. Well, who knew that you had to like, you know, dry clean your coveralls when you go from a cave in Europe to a cave in North America. So I know I always do when I'm caving. Exactly. Say what you want about Jan Arden, but she always dry cleans. I check my heels. I check the heels of my shoes. Yeah, good on you.
So they have those challenges, but they have a lot of people advocating for them. And the anecdotal stuff I'm hearing is that the population seemed to be on a little bit of an upward trajectory. It's been going down for a while with the white nose syndrome, but I hear good things in the last year or two. But I'm meeting with a friend of mine who studies the data firsthand pretty soon, and I'll find out what the real story is from her. Do they have predators? Yeah, they have owls eat them. And then when they're in the roost, they get picked off by...
cats or raccoons and stuff like that. But generally bats are long lived and not, it's not really like predation is not the big thing that, that takes them out. Like a typical bat, like a little brown bat living in Southern Alberta can live for 40 years.
And have one baby a year. I know. And the thing is like the size of your thumb. It's nuts. But they live for a really long time. Yeah. I mean, with the wings, they're bigger. But the wing is just skin, right? The actual body is like the size of your thumb. So they're amazing creatures. And the more you get to know them, the more... I mean, they have so much charisma. They're so cute. They're so fun. They're great. Well, leading up to this interview, I like five, six days ago started following hashtag bats on TikTok. Uh-huh.
And I have been mortified, but also delighted, intrigued. Some of them are so frigging cute. I had no idea there were so many species of bats. And like you said, from teeny tiny little totlings, from tater tots, to quite giant bats. And I think...
My biggest fear, and I think most people when they think of bats, which are not how the movies portray them, coming and going up your shirt and somehow tackling you and you roll down the side of a cliff because you can't drive your car anymore. They just seem like we're doing our thing. We want you to do your thing. But the big ones, the name escapes me now, but they weren't from...
They really are something else. They are. I mean, so one of the things you got to watch for is that sometimes when people are taking pictures of the really big bats, they use little photography tricks to make them look even bigger than they actually are. So the biggest bats in the world do have a six foot wingspan. That is true. They are big, right? But despite having a six foot wingspan, the thing only weighs about three pounds. So it's almost all skin. Now that's a pretty big animal, but it's like,
giant squirrel size. It's not flying cow size, right? It's not a dog with wings or something like that. And so there's some pictures that show up in my feed all the time with my name, like, Hey Dan, look at this picture. There's one of a flying Fox, which is these kinds of bats. Um,
with a motorcycle in the background. And the bat is quite close to you and the motorcycle is quite far away, but you can't tell from the picture. So it looks like the bat is the size of the motorcycle. And people send this and they're like, this is a real picture. Okay, well, I think this is what, I think this was the rabbit hole I was going down. This was the bat cave I was going into. No better place. But
But you write about a lot of things, your columns. And Caitlin often sends me, you've got to read Dan's column this week. And, you know, he had this to say about that. And I do love all your stuff about animals. In particular, the things you've written about dogs.
over time. And I know that you are definitely a dog lover as am I. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's amazing that dogs are neat, but the link between humans and dogs is arguably even neater because there's an evolutionary story there about how
Did we domesticate the dogs or did the dogs domesticate us? Right? I mean, who really is in control? I mean, it's easy when I've got my Boston Terrier. He's passed away now. But when I had the Boston Terrier, it looked very clear who I was in charge, little dogs following me, la-da-da-da-da. But this dog, as an evolutionary lineage, has come up with a way to get all the food it wants, to get bread and to have
pass on its DNA and it doesn't have to do any work at all. And it's, it's not in danger. And listen, if it has an eye infection, I'll throw down thousands of dollars to save the dog. Right. So it's a great strategy by these dogs and understanding how that evolution happened is a really neat thing. So for example, there's a study on, um,
Like a dog can recognize your voice, right? So like if you call your dog and then a stranger calls your dog, the dog will come to you, but probably not the stranger. They'll at least look at the stranger differently. And we thought that was part of what they evolved as dogs. But somebody recently did exactly that study with wolves in a zoo where they always get fed by this one guy.
And then that guy called the wolves compared to some guy who isn't the normal feeder of the wolves. And the wolves didn't respond to the other person. They only responded to their feeder. And so that suggests that wolves already are baked in with an instinct for human voices and that evolution, when they became our pets, built on what was already there. So it's really fun to learn about that trajectory. So is it safe to say that my seven-pound Morky is a descendant of wolves? Yes. Yeah, 100%.
I don't even, I'm really, I don't know what to say. Yeah, it's great. And people love to like laugh at that, right? I mean, you do that, you know, that picture of the humans evolving and we go from like hunched over and then we're erect and all this stuff. And then like he follows over and the person's crunched over a computer and everybody laughs that evolution's going the wrong way. But
Evolution isn't a trajectory from worse to better. Evolution is just change over time. And so there's no reason, in some cases, things get bigger. In some cases, things get smaller. And so for this evolutionary lineage that leads to your dog, that's artificial selection where people are selecting the dogs to be smaller. But evolution definitely can go in those kinds of directions. And it's really cool. So one big difference between your dog, what's your dog's name? Poppy. He was born November 11th. So his birthday is coming up.
There'll be two. Poppy. I like Poppy. That's a good name for a dog. So Poppy has a trait that wolves don't have, which is a big difference between them, which is that Poppy will look you right in the eyes all the time. And wolves don't do that.
And what God, I know if it was looking you in the eyes, you've got, you've got problems. You're you've got bigger. Yeah. Yeah. People do keep wolves as pets sometimes, but they don't look you in the eye. And there's a neat thing that's been studied with, there's a whole bunch of research on this about the hormones that are secreted in the person and in their dog that
when you lock eyes with them because there's this whole biochemical system for a mom and a baby where when they lock eyes, both of them are overwhelmed with these emotions and this feeling of love, these endorphins, these things happen. And that system is baked into us to help us take care of our babies.
And what's really cool is that researchers have shown that when you look at your dog, same thing happens. The same chemicals are coming out of your brain, but they're also happening for the dog. So the dog arguably is also feeling that love that you're feeling when you look at your dog. And people say, I mean, it sounds like a kind of a cold thing to say, but the dogs have kind of hijacked this maternal baby link as a communication mechanism. They've jumped in on that.
and found a way to make you love them and take care of them. So all of these things that we have to take care of our little babies that we love, well, oh, now I have a dog and the dog's part of the family too. And I love it. And it's just the dog's evolutionary lineage kind of getting in on what we already had with our babies. And it's just that kind of evolutionary context to me makes the way I feel about my dog more beautiful. Like it makes me understand her differently when I think about how she's looking at me and I think about the context of that. I couldn't,
Live where I live without my dog. I mean, I'm still very much heartbroken over my last little girl who was just, she was 13 and she was just amazing. And I'd never had a little dog before. I grew up with farm dogs and there was an absolute connection, but there was also a bit of a gap in how...
I had my relationship with them growing up. I loved the dogs, but they slept outside. They were there to protect the property. And, you know, for a while we did have horses and, you know, they were big farm dogs and they didn't come into the house. And then, you know, I was in a relationship where my partner got this dog and
And the dog liked me more. So I ended up with the dog. I don't, I just, it was, it was bound to happen. I mean, look at me, right? So anyway, but now I had never experienced that kind of a connection with a small, like me with a purse dog traveling and being on the road. I thought this is unheard of. I would, I never thought I was this person. Well, I've turned into this person where
you know, if I, I don't go anywhere that my dog can't go. Like if, is it fancy? Is it dress up? Can I bring my dog? Well, no. Okay. Well, sorry, but I, I won't be attending. I mean, I'm kind of exaggerating, but I'm kind of not, but I live alone in the trees, but I'm so not alone. I talk to this dog a lot and,
He keeps me just on my toes. He's helping me avoid a stroke or a blood clot because I'm getting up every two minutes to open doors or to get him something or to cater to him. And it's literally a tilt of the head and a, and I'm like, I know what you want, but you're not having it right now. It's too early. God damn it. You can have one little piece and that's it. And before I know it, I've just been talked into all kinds of shenanigans and
But I'm opening the door. Oh, and I'm, I wish I was exaggerating. I'm going to say 80 times a day. Oh my gosh. To go out onto my deck. Oh, that's so frustrating. Oh. But, but he's just, he's fantastic. He's an excellent, excellent guard dog. And by that, I mean, if there's a car down my road, I'm in a, down a service road, like an, a mile. He knows. Right. Like sometimes I'm like, dude, there's nobody there. I'm like, there is someone there.
I know there's a million dog lovers out there. We're talking to Dan Riskin, and we're going to talk more about dogs because I want to have him speak to children's welfare once again. And following that voice in their hearts that's always been there, that guides us all when we're young. But pets play an important role. Dogs in particular play something important.
a really important part of that connection and with stress and everything. I'm going to let Dan tell you all about that. You're listening to the Jan Arden podcast and show. We're going to be right back. Don't go away. And if you go away, you're going to miss out and then you're going to have FOMO. So just put that in your pipe and vape it. We'll be right back.
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Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast and Show. We are here today with Dan Riskin. Caitlin Green is also here. You haven't heard much from her, but I think she is just letting us gab on. Kids and dogs, Dan. I had a pretty spectacular childhood having a dog roam around with me through the hills, kind of my sidekick. Yeah. And I think about that dog a lot. Aquarius. My mother named him Aquarius. Oh, wow. Yeah.
This is the dog. I call on that at eight o'clock at night. Yeah. Aquarius. Yeah. Like the neighbors. Yeah. The neighbors are like, what are they doing? Like cancer, like some kind of like a mating call kind of thing. Um,
So kids and dogs. Yeah. So our family had a Boston Terrier when we started, when we had kids, my wife and I had a Boston Terrier and that he died. He was cute as all get out. His name was Elliot. He was a great little cute little love that guy.
And then we had a span of time where we didn't have a dog. And the kids were really like, we want a dog, we want a dog. And so we thought, well, let's get something a little bigger, something with a little more energy. And so we got Freya. And Freya is half Border Collie, half Australian Shepherd, which is like take the two most energetic things you can and mix them together. I was going to say. And it turns out it's even more energetic than the sum of those two parts. So this dog was...
just totally crazy for the first year. Like my wife and I were like, we've made a mistake like this. This dog would bite the tops of my feet if I tried to walk across the room because she was trying to herd me into where she wanted. She has since calmed down and become a very good dog. But what's really been striking for me is the way the kids use the dog, because I'll have a time where I'm
I'm with my kid and I'm, you know, maybe we're having a disagreement about something or I'm trying to correct something or encouraging them to do something. And they're just like, they've had it with listening to dad. And the kids sometimes will just like, they'll be looking at me and then they'll just turn around and walk away and then lie on top of Freya and just snuggle the dog. And,
When that happens, you have this sense of like, oh, that's why we have the dog. It's not for me. It doesn't matter if it bites my feet or did when I was a puppy. It's for the kids. And I really think they have a connection to that dog that I can't even get my head around. And what's really cool, I love it when a thing I believe to be true comes out in the scientific literature and I can say, oh, you know what, that thing I believe, it actually is true. So it's okay to believe it.
And there's a paper that just came out showing that dogs lower stress. And so they had people who own dogs do a stressful activity where they had to do math in front of a group of people in their heads and then say the answer. And it was all very stressful. And then afterwards, they either got to snuggle their dog or interact with their dog however they wanted.
or they did one of those stress release coloring books, or they did nothing. And researchers had them fill out surveys to see how stressed they were after that, spending some time doing those things. And the coloring books did nothing. They don't lower your stress at all compared to just sitting there. I know, but the dog, which is what you are using, works really well, works better than the other two. And so it really does take away depression. It takes away anxiety and it
gives you a more positive feeling. And so that's the scientific literature showing what I know to be true from my experience in the house, which is that these dogs have magical powers and we don't really understand how they do it, but interacting with a dog, your dog does lower your stress. It is good for you. Well, having said that, when my mom was going through Alzheimer's, she's no longer here, but when she was sort of in right in the middle of it, we got her
an electronic robotic cat because she couldn't take her cat to the nursing home. She wasn't there very long. I kept her home most of the journey. The last 10 months, it was just way too complicated, too medical, incontinence. It was just, it was too much for our family anyway, but we couldn't, they didn't take the cat, which was really upsetting, but I get it, you know? So we got her this motorized cat and,
And I cannot tell you how valuable a tool. And not only for my mom, because she would pet it. It would move. Like when you touched this cat, its whiskers moved, its hands came up, it started purring. My mom, for all accounts and purposes, believed that cat to be alive. Well, that cat started making the rounds. I don't know how many batteries we went through. They were like giant D batteries. And...
Everyone took a turn. There was, I think, 11 clients in this memory care home. And it almost makes me want to cry because I think seeing my mom with a robotic cat and talking to it. And my mom was still in there because one day she said to me, I was sitting with her and she had the cat in her lap. And she grabbed my arm and she said, Jan, someone a lot smarter than me is going to have to figure out how to make this cat really alive again. Wow. And
I knew exactly what she was saying, but she's like, but you know what? I know it's not real, but it's real enough for me. Like I really got this sense from her. It gives me chills to think about it, but she went along with it. She just let her mind take a break from reality. That's okay. I just wanted to let Jan know that I know.
This cat is not alive, but it made all the difference. It was a lifesaver. And I ended up buying another three or four of these motorized robotic cats for the memory care floor. Oh, nice. And everyone was just like, these are a hit. So, you know, I know how I feel about my dog and I know what a difference he makes for me. I mean, I didn't think that I would be single living out here, but I am. That's just how it turned out.
But I couldn't do it if it wasn't for this seven pound being. And I can't explain it to you. I don't know how else to expand on that. It would be an impossibility for me to be here.
It's beautiful. I mean, it's, and I think that for me, that is a way that science makes things cooler. I mean, I know I sound like I'm always coming at it from the same angle, but to me, the context of the evolution of a species and another species coming together and then becoming in a symbiotic relationship like that really does matter.
sort of give a context to that whole thing, to your experience out there. Fundamentally, it's really kind of unchanged from what we were doing 10,000, 100,000 years ago when we had those dogs and we were giving them bits of food from around the fire and they were living with us and they were barking when someone came up the road. You're doing the same thing. And that emotional connection you have
fundamentally is like what the emotional connection that evolves, that exists for adaptive reasons, that helps you and helps the dog and is stable in the long term. And it's just, it is beautiful. Well, getting a little glimpse of that in real time kind of archaeology, I've done a couple of trips to Africa over the years. And my last one there was certainly the late 90s, but spending time with the Maasai people in Ethiopia.
And they had lots of dogs all over the place. They weren't domesticated, but they traveled together with the Maasai. They slept outside the huts at night. They barked when strangers came up. They certainly barked at us when we came up with our vehicles.
But the translator basically said to us, oh, they belong here, but they're not fed. Sometimes they'll get scraps. You know, they pray for that. But they're quite happy to be. They need the people and the people need them. So that was interesting. Anyway, we're talking to Dan Riskin and this has been such an amazing conversation. We've got a few more minutes left with Dan. We're going to come back talking. Well, get ready. We're going to talk about plants and eating them.
And don't go away. Don't drive off. Dan Riskin is with us. Caitlin Green, Jan Arden Podcast. We shall return. Bring a carrot. Welcome back to the Jan Arden Podcast and show. Caitlin Green is here. She's in her Toronto abode. Dan Riskin, I believe, is also in his Toronto home.
And we've been talking about all kinds of cool things today, bats and dogs and kids and zoology and life. Caitlin Green, I'm going to involve you. I'm going to force you to speak. You said on one of the breaks that... I'm trying to let you guys talk about cool stuff here. I know, but... You're cool too.
You're very cool and you're part of this, damn it. And I'm not paying you $5 a week for nothing. Yeah. That's true. So you have a beautiful child who is being scouted by modeling agencies, but that's a whole other podcast. We will get to that. Endlessly cute. Star of his daycare.
Now you said on the break that there's no way I'm getting a dog. So go ahead, speak to that. Go, go tell me why. I love dogs. And I had a dog. I had a French bulldog named Roxy and she was my little potato with legs. But I also just went to see my brother-in-law over the summer holidays in PEI. And they have three children and they have a newfound land.
And I swear to you, this dog is more work than all three of the kids and my baby put together. Who says you have to have a Newfoundland dog? But even like, I just, I cannot imagine now that I have a baby, a world in which I also want to take on a baby that has fur because I'm not one of those people where it's like, oh, I'll just go away. I'll just like leave the dog by itself. Like I take it seriously and I'm, I'm overly empathetic and I'm like anxious as a result.
So I feel like anytime I wasn't paying full attention to the dog, I would just feel so guilty. And I just can't imagine it. Plus, I'm a clean freak. So I'm worried about general...
home cleanliness oh boy well can you speak to that band please all i can say is that uh wherever you're at is where you should be at my perceptions on things have my perceptions have changed as i've moved through this journey like when we had one kid we had one frame of reality and then we found out we were having twins and all of a sudden we went from one kid to to three and my house is very very full right now and it is like whacking moles it is chaos it is
insanity. And so our dog fits into that perfectly. And she just is, she's a glue that sort of holds it all together. But yeah, she has more work and I can understand your misgivings. I don't like to push people around and tell them what to do. So I'll let you just wait until Will asks for a dog and then we'll see what happens. That's what's going to do it. That's what's going to do it. Yes. Neither...
My husband and I will not be able to say no to him because so far we are not very good at that. So yeah. But then I hope that I win the battle because my husband wants a big dog and I, knowing the nature of a French Bulldog, would get that dog again in a heartbeat because...
they are they're potatoes with legs and they're wonderful yeah and like the yeah the kid drives the bus a lot I mean I don't know the kids are sort of like they're the we're just there to sort of help them out for a couple years while they're heading on their own and they've got their own personality and they decide what they want so we'll let Will push you around I'm not going to try I think Will has a lot more swing sway than I do well
Will let Will decide if he also wants to be a vegan. Jan, you might have to be the one that convinces Will into veganism. Well, I think young people and Dan, I want you to weigh in on this. I think young people will be much more progressive thinking. They're going to have to think about the planet. There's no two ways about it. It is going to be at the top of the pile. It's just not going to be something that you can wave your hand on and make it go away because they're not going to have water.
And they're just, they're not going to have the resources that we are blowing through so quickly. It's just not...
There's not going to be petroleum for 200 years. It's just not going to happen. The world will fall apart and the atmosphere can't accommodate it. But I think they're way more open to, oh, that's cool. I'll eat that. That sounds delicious. And there's so much more choices even in the last five years. Dan, don't you think? Yeah, I know there are so many choices. I am a vegetarian. I did it. I've played with it. It's come and gone in my life. But for the last year, I've been a vegetarian. And the real reason for me is...
I have looked at sort of the data on how much of an impact meat has compared to other kinds of food, like plant-based foods. And like, it's literally 10 times more of an impact than plants. And I don't, I like beef, but I don't like it 10%.
it 10 times more than I like a lentil soup. Like, and so, you know, all things being equal, they're pretty close, right? So why not go for the lentil soup and like have a 10th the impact on the environment? So those are my sort of personal reasons for wanting to eat less meat. And I just have taken it off the menu altogether for me. But I
That said, there's a new paper that just came out. And again, this is another example of a scientific paper sort of reinforcing what I think I know. But this scientific paper shows that basically 75% of global farmland is for growing meat, but it only contributes 18% of the calories that people eat. So it's a bad investment. Like it doesn't pay as well as plant-based alternatives. Now, it's very hard, as you know, Jan, it's very hard to convince people that they should eat
No meat. And so what I often start... Less is good. Less is great. And that's where the conversation is for me right now with a lot of people is like, if you can cut one hamburger out of your weekly diet... That saves more water than if you stop showering for the whole week. Like just the amount of water that goes into making a beef patty is more than your whole shower budget for the week, which is crazy. Yeah.
And it also has a huge impact on CO2 levels and all this other stuff. And a new paper shows that if we could get more people thinking that way, we could make a real dent in greenhouse gases in a meaningful way to get them like below 2020 levels if we had a lot of people that were thinking that way. So it's an easy thing that people can do in their everyday lifestyle. And if you've had a summer of like looking at all the smoke and feeling kind of guilty and thinking, should I do something? There's something you can do. Just don't have a burger on Friday.
Just have something else to eat on Friday. Yeah, do spaghetti and some tomato sauce and chuck a bunch of veggies in there and get some – there's so many great choices now. Like I was saying, in the last four or five years, there's very innovative companies. I mean, Canada is spending – I think it just spent $100 million on promoting plant-based proteins or foods and really helping small companies to kind of bring to light –
Some choices for people. I mean, I would be hard pressed. I mean, I haven't eaten chicken in eight or nine years, but if you put a chicken nugget and a vegan nugget in front of me, I swear to God with a little dipping sauce, I could not tell you which was real.
And further to that, they had a guy on UK television a few weeks ago on one of the morning shows. And it was kind of a thing. They wanted him to pick out the pork sausage. And he was a very big fellow and he was a staunch meat eater and there was no way in hell he was ever going to do anything vegetarian or vegan. They
They gave him three sausages, all of which were plant-based sausages. And they were delicious. And of course he ate them and he's one, he spit out, that's bloody terrible. That's not it. And, oh, this is this. And then this, and then he point, he pulls this one in front of him and this is it. This is bloody delicious. I know, I know as a Yorkshire hog, when I taste it, blah, blah, blah. And the place kind of burst out. Well, his reaction was very quite volatile, uh,
He felt very duped. It wasn't at all kind of, oh, how funny you've put three. He felt like he had been manipulated and he went on about it. I think he went on to kind of walk off the set because, A, he was embarrassed.
and he put all his chips onto that hand and saying, this is the Yorkshire pork sausage. So it's interesting how people react, and it was just literally an experiment. I don't think they meant him any harm whatsoever. But there's a lot to learn there. But he liked it. He liked it. Yeah, but the way that conversation happens has a huge impact on the output, right? And it's something we learned through the pandemic, and scientists are learning this over and over with social media and with
The truth, misinformation, all that stuff. The truth doesn't naturally rise to the top and facts don't lead people to certain behaviors. It really matters how those conversations go. And so how people are engaged in conversations around what they eat and their beliefs and finding ways to meet them partway. It's just like when I was talking to Caitlin about getting a dog.
It's the same thing. If I come in and say like, dogs are the right way. You're going to learn that eventually. And so just join the dark side. That doesn't push her. That's not, it's research has shown that doesn't nudge anybody. You've got to meet them where they are and have a meaningful conversation. And so, I don't know for the meat thing. I really, I mean, the world would be way better off if everybody was a vegetarian today. That,
It clearly would take a huge weight off of the global carbon economy. It would be wonderful for so many reasons, but that isn't on the table as an option, if you'll pardon that. Well, it's amazing to me how kindness is actually a tool that can change the outcome of the health and wellness of planet Earth.
kindness, because obviously within this configuration of eating less meat, there are hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of living sentient things that growing up in industrial farming live a life of servitude and health. And it's indefensible. And that's how I feel about it. So that kindness will actually change the outcome of the planet.
Dan Riskin has been our guest today. Fiona, the fruit bat is a wonderful children's book.
that is available to you. I'm sure you can go to your favorite bookstore. You can go online. You can go to Amazon. Fiona the Fruit Bat. About your child's inner voice and trusting that and being able to find things that you need to find. Am I even getting that remotely close? Bang on. Bang on. I wish I'd got you on the process earlier. You could have sold more books for me when it first came out. I'm going to be there. If you need a quote that we put on a sticker to put on top, I'll be there.
You are fantastic. I am so inspired by you. I hope, and I mean this, I'm not just saying it. I hope you'll come back and talk to us again about interesting things that you're uncovering and get your child a pet or a dog if you can. I know it's hard to afford things right now. So listen, I take that back.
Go visit, go, go, go have, go have a visit with someone that does have a dog. Maybe your kids can go walk the neighbor dog. That one might be really awesome for them. And it would help the neighbor out who's at work all day. That would really appreciate your kid taking a spin around the block. Anyway, Dan, thank you. Thank you. Caitlin, as always, you're fantastic. You've been listening to Jan Arden podcast and show hit that subscribe button. Give us five stars, give us six stars and you'll find us. We can be on I heart radio. What we can be. We are.
All your favorite podcasting streamers, you can find us. We'll see you next time. Toodaloo. This podcast is distributed by the Women in Media Podcast Network. Find out more at womeninmedia.network.