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You're listening to an Ono Media podcast. Hey everyone and welcome back to the podcast. I really, really hope you guys all loved my crossover last week with Annie from 10 to Life. I had so much fun doing it. It's obviously not going to be a permanent thing, but I love just meeting with other creators who are in the true crime space. And also it's an opportunity to introduce you guys to a
Thank you for being supportive and thank you for always being kind. I swear our listeners are like the kindest and just a different breed. So thank you so much. This is Into the Dark and I'm so happy you're here. Before we jump over into my 10 seconds this week, I just wanted to remind you if you are watching on YouTube,
please subscribe and please turn on notifications. I just really need help getting this onto the algorithm. So please, please do that for me. And if you are listening on podcasts and can leave a review, that would be awesome and much appreciated. All right, so my 10 seconds this week, I wanted to tell you a little story
that I talked to Garrett about a couple nights ago. So it was around midnight and I had this story pop in my head and I sat up and I was like, Garrett, I need to tell you this story. So it happened back when I was in high school and we were at a football game. I was with my family. Now in high school, I know a lot of people sit in the student section of games. I always just sat with my parents though. So I was sitting with my parents and I'm from Idaho and it was
pouring rain and so cold at this football game. Okay, it's Friday night lights. Picture it super cold. Everyone's in huge jackets and it is just pouring
pouring rain at this game, but not enough that they're going to cancel the game. Okay. So when we walk into the stadium, there's a giveaway and they're like, oh, RC Willie, which is a furniture company, if you don't know, is here and they are giving away a sectional to watch the game in, in the right next to the end zone. And so of course we were like, okay, we'll put, you know, we'll buy a raffle ticket or whatever. So in the first
quarter of the game, they announced the winner and it was my parents. My parents won the sectional, but wait, it gets, it gets better. So I'm like, oh my gosh. So we get up and we're like, okay, at least instead of sitting on these hard metal benches in the rain, in the freezing cold, we'll at least get to be in a recliner. Um, and we were all going to have to squish, right? It was like a two seater, but it was me, my dad and my mom.
So we get down. Not only did we win a seat in the recliner, they had it on a trailer that was underneath a tent. So we were out of the rain and they had blankets and heaters. Like literally, it was not a better night to win this recliner. And if you know me, you know that I do not consider myself lucky. I actually consider myself lucky.
kind of unlucky when it comes to like raffles or just experiences like this. This is the only thing I mean, and I didn't win it. My parents did. Garrett wins everything. So I kind of get a little bit of luck from him. But as far as raffles and giveaways go, I never win. And so this was just such a cool experience and everything.
And everyone, like we were sitting there, we had our hot chocolate, we're watching the game and everyone was just like texting me, like, can I come down? We ended up having like five people, 10, maybe even 10 people underneath the tent, but five people trying to sit on the sofa. And it was so funny. And I just was like, wow.
What a good thing to win. That was a good thing to win. I just, I remembered that the other night. I was like, core memory unlocked and I was cracking up. Me and Garrett were laughing so hard that that's the only thing I've won in my life, but it was, it was worth it. Okay, now let's get into the episode and maybe talk about murder. Trigger warning, this episode includes discussions of murder, so please listen with care. Dead men tell no tales, at least in theory.
When a person dies, they're not around anymore to tell you about how or why they passed away. But their body can still tell a story in bruises or toxicology reports or rates of decomposition. That's the cornerstone of forensic science, right? The idea that the dead actually can tell tales provided you know how to hear them.
So the police and prosecutors have to get pretty comfortable with the idea of listening to people after they pass away. But still, we're talking about listening metaphorically. These are all evidence-based scientific investigation methods. And in today's episode, a psychic stepped forward and said she'd literally heard a message from a murder victim. And her information was eerily spot on.
So investigators had no choice but to listen to her. But the vision of a murder wasn't what Elise McKinley was thinking about when she went to a psychic reading with some friends on June 7th, 1987. Elise didn't believe in seances or the supernatural. She was actually pretty convinced that mediums were just very talented performers, but she didn't see any harm in it and her friends thought it would be fun to get a reading so she went along.
They visited a woman named Rosemary Kerr, who practiced her craft in Escondido, California. That's actually a suburb just outside of San Diego. If you've ever visited the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, congratulations, you've been to Escondido. Now, Elise knew that Rosemary advertised herself as a psychic investigator, meaning she didn't limit herself to seances with her clients, delivering warm messages from their recently departed loved ones.
She claimed she could also use her gift to solve crimes. That is, if you took Rosemary at her word, which again, in today's story, Elise didn't. Like I said, she was just there to kill a few hours and have a good time. I don't know exactly what Rosemary said during this session, but she must have been fairly on point.
Enough that when Elise left, she still wasn't a true believer, but she was maybe a little less skeptical than before.
Either way, psychic predictions and questions about how reliable they are weren't Elise's top priority two days later. See, Elise was from the New Orleans area and she still had family back there. This included her two brothers, Andre and Chris Daigle. Even though they lived in entirely different parts of the country, Elise's family was close. They spoke on the phone almost every day. But on the 10th,
Andre didn't call his mother or pick up when she reached out to him, and that was, like I just said, unusual for him. Their mother spoke to Chris, who also hadn't heard from Andre. He was worried too. So by the time Elise heard that no one else had spoken to her brother and she hadn't talked to him either, it was time to sound the alarm. But when Andre's brother, Chris, tried to report him missing, the police don't initially take it seriously. Their stance was he
He'd missed some phone calls, but there was no other reason to think anything bad had happened to him. Especially because, remember, this was 1987. This was before ordinary people carried cell phones with them everywhere. So if Andre wasn't picking up his...
Home line. That could mean he was just out running errands or he'd picked up an extra shift at work or maybe even out seeing friends. In fact, the last time Andre was seen, he was out at a bar with a pal. That friend said Andre left with a woman they'd met there. So maybe Andre was just still out at her house. He'd make his way home eventually and start calling his family back. There's nothing to worry about here.
Now, Chris, his brother, was not convinced. He knew Andre better than that. He'd never go a whole day without talking to his relatives. But the police still weren't taking his report seriously, and it's not like he could force them to investigate. So he left the station after accomplishing nothing in his brother's missing persons investigation.
They decided, Elise and Chris, they were on their own. If they wanted to find Andre, they'd have to do it themselves, which had to be frustrating for Elise because there wasn't much she could do from all the way in California, but she didn't want to just sit and wait for the police to change their minds and look for her brother, especially as five days passed and he still hadn't contacted anyone. It was painfully obvious by now. He wasn't still on a date or running errands for a week.
Elise was ready to try just about anything to find him. Even something she'd previously decided wasn't real. I know you know where I'm going with this, but that's...
That's right. Elise remembered how the psychic, Rosemary Kerr, had advertised her abilities to solve crimes. And while Elise didn't have a lot of confidence that anything would come of it, she figured it couldn't hurt to reach out to Rosemary. Ask her if she had any insights about Andre's whereabouts. And before I go any further in this case, I do want to talk about how a lot of people believe that
Rightfully so, the psychics who do criminal investigations are just prying on the desperation of victims' families. And I do think a lot of times that's true, but also it's really devastating to think about the reality that a lot of victims' families have to do something. And if this is the only thing they can do, they're going to do it.
So Elise reaches out and she booked the appointment. Rosemary told her to bring two things to their session, a picture of Andre and a map of Louisiana. The latter was because Rosemary had never even been to Louisiana before. So as soon as she heard Andre went missing from the New Orleans area, she figured she might need a visual aid. So Elise showed up, handed Andre's picture over and Rosemary's reaction, our sidekick, was immediate.
She felt this sensation that she described as a vibration in her fingertips. And with those vibrations came visions. Rosemary told Elise that she saw Andre. He was in his dark colored truck. Elise heard that and her first thought was, nope, that's wrong. Andre didn't drive a dark colored truck. He had a white car. So that was strike one against Rosemary. Except Rosemary insisted, no.
No, okay, it might not be his, but he's in a dark truck. It was black or blue or a shade like that. And he was with a man who had long blonde hair. Then Rosemary swept her hands over the map. She slid them back and forth and didn't stop until she felt that same vibration again. This time she picked it up when she slid her fingers over a town called Slidell, which is just on the other side of Lake Pontchartrain from New Orleans.
Rosemary asked Elise if the town of Slidell had any significance to her, and Elise actually perked right up. She was familiar with the area. So Rosemary told Elise that's where she'd find Andre's vehicle, specifically that dark colored truck.
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Now, unfortunately, Rosemary wasn't being totally honest with her. She saw and felt something else when she had her vision. Water, pain, and the presence of death. She also had this horrible, intense headache. It was so bad, she had to shout at Elise when she described some of what she saw. Not all, but just some. Rosemary realized by now that Andre had probably already passed away, but she didn't tell Elise, his sister, that.
She could tell that the young woman wasn't emotionally prepared for the news, so she kept it to herself at this point. And so this meant that Elise was actually feeling optimistic when she finally got home from the session. Again, probably not totally convinced, but Rosemary's tip was better than nothing. And so far, that's all her family had. Nothing.
She called Chris to talk about what she'd learned. Presumably, she voiced some of her skepticism then too, particularly about the whole dark truck slash white car debacle. Except Chris knew that Andre had actually recently bought a new vehicle. Remember, Elise didn't know this, but his brother Chris did. He tells Elise, actually, Andre had just bought a new car. It was a black truck.
This is just like the psychic said, and if she'd been right about that, maybe her other visions were true too? As soon as Elise said that Andre's truck was supposed to be in Slidell, Chris got this very intense feeling. It was like she'd said a magic word and he knew the information was special, maybe meaningful.
He and some other relatives decided to go for a drive in the area, see what they could find. Maybe if they were lucky, they'd spot Andre. So Chris and the others hit the road. Later, in an interview with Paranormal Investigators, Chris said that he spent the drive trying to spiritually connect to his brother, just sending out vibes to let Andre know that he loved him and that they were looking for him. And right as he did this, he saw something unexpected driving ahead of him on the road. It was
It was Andre's new truck. Now that goes beyond coincidence of all the cars to be on that road at that precise time in a big city like New Orleans.
Once again, it seemed like there was something supernatural at play. Now I need to mention the truck isn't parked on the side of the road. It's driving on the same road as Chris and his family. So Chris pulled up beside the truck and looked in and the person driving the truck wasn't Andre. Chris didn't know who he was. So he followed the pickup truck for a while. It's not clear what he planned to do, but it was okay that he didn't have a plan because once again, it seemed that fate intervened in this case.
Andre's truck pulled onto a remote road. No one else seemed to be around except for a squad car. It turned out this was the only patrol car in the whole neighborhood at the time, and it was just parked at the side of the road like the officer was waiting for someone to ask him for help.
So as soon as Chris saw the police car, he waved it down. He didn't have much time to explain everything because he didn't want to let the truck get away. So he frantically told the officer that that truck had been stolen, which was technically true as it didn't seem like the driver had gotten the vehicle in a legal way. So that's all the officers needed to know to pull the truck over or at least to try to. But when the squad car activated its lights, the truck accelerated away.
The police chased the driver who sped at over 100 miles per hour. At one point, the officers called for backup, which was a good decision. They had no idea how much danger they were in. There were two men in Andre's truck and they were armed.
One of them fully intended to shoot as many cops as he could rather than get arrested. And his companion actually talked him down from this. He argued maybe they'd only get a speeding ticket. If they just pulled over, this might all still work out. So he convinced the driver to stop and cooperate with the officers. So that's what they did. And when a patrolman approached the driver,
Neither man would tell him anything useful. They wouldn't even say their names. All the police officer knew was that they were young, maybe both in their early 20s. The driver had dark hair and a beard. The passenger had curly blonde hair. Now, not quite the long blonde hair that Rosemary had described, but it was a bit unruly and in need of a cut. So I think we can give her credit for that description. Neither man was Andre, obviously. It was still unclear where he was and how these two guys had gotten his truck.
When the arresting officer searched the vehicle, he found two guns. Later, he learned they'd recently been reported stolen. Plus, these two men driving Andre's truck weren't allowed to even have weapons because both were convicted felons, presumably with fingerprints already on record. Soon, the police identified them as Charles Gervais and Michael Phillips.
But the police didn't know how big of a deal this arrest was yet. Remember, Chris had just told them the car was stolen, but police didn't realize yet that Andre was missing. Chris didn't have time to say, hey, that truck is my brother's stolen truck and also he's missing. So when they questioned Charles and Michael, they mostly focused on asking them how they got the truck. They didn't realize there was a guy missing in connection to this truck.
And they also asked them why they were armed with stolen guns. Since they had two suspects, they were able to play them against one another. The police actually kept them separate. First, they spoke to Michael. This is the blonde passenger who'd wanted to cooperate with the police rather than get into a shootout. He said that the truck belonged to Charles's boss and Charles was just giving him a ride. Then they questioned Charles, who was the driver of the truck and who also had the gun. And he didn't say anything at all. He just asked for a lawyer.
The police sent him back to his cell to wait for an attorney, but Michael didn't know that. So when the police talked to Michael again, they told him that his account didn't match up with Charles's. Michael obviously didn't realize they were bluffing. He thought he'd been caught in a lie. So to protect himself, he said that he'd just confess.
He got a pen and paper and started writing a description of how he'd committed his crimes. The police honestly just left him to write. They didn't see what he was putting down or which crimes he was confessing to. They were still primarily concerned with the stolen guns and truck, not Andre. While Michael was writing everything down, the officers went back to Charles and said, hey, your buddy old pal Michael is in there confessing.
This must have made Charles feel like he'd get in trouble too if he didn't come clean. Because that's when Charles said, fine, we did it. The police asked him to share more details and Charles added, we killed him. It was like a record scratch. The detectives again didn't know who'd been killed or what was even going on, but they knew that they had to proceed very carefully. So they coaxed the full story out of Charles of how he and Michael had murdered Andre. And here's what police learned.
Charles and Michael lived in a two-bedroom apartment, along with a third roommate, Thelma Horn. Money was tight, and they were desperate to come up with the month's rent before they could get evicted. So the three landed on a dangerous plot. They'd kill someone, anyone, it didn't matter, and take the victim's valuables. Basically, a robbery, but murder was still on the table. Which, this is a pretty wild plan. There are easier, less deadly ways to get cash. But,
But Charles told the police that on some level, he and Michael were showing off for one another. It was kind of a battle. They wanted to prove that they were tough, that they were capable of taking a life. So the murder was as much about macho posturing as it was about getting the cash to pay rent.
And they figured if they could handle killing a stranger, they could move on to bigger, more profitable crimes. They just wanted to be criminals, maybe even take over a major sex work operation in another state. I'm not saying this plan makes sense. This is just what Charles reported. The idea was their third roommate, Thelma, would visit a local bar. She'd flirt with a guy, convince him to come home with her, and then they'd strike, which is exactly what she did on the night of June 9th, 1987.
I mentioned earlier how that night Andre was out with a friend. This was the last time he was seen. They were at a pool hall called Mitchell's Lounge and Thelma was on the hunt there too. Andre just didn't know it. When Andre walked up to the bar to order a beer, Thelma started talking to him. Not for any particular reason. He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Andre didn't even realize he was in danger. He enjoyed the attention. He and his friends stayed out until 11 or 11:30, then Andre's companion wanted to go home. They were about to leave when Thelma walked back up to Andre. She asked if Andre would give her a ride since he was leaving anyway. And since they'd been flirting all night, Andre took her up on the offer. So Andre's friend saw them leave together without him, and he didn't think anything of it, but it was the last time he'd ever see Andre alive.
After they left the bar, Andre went back to Thelma's apartment with her. Then Charles and Michael attacked him. They beat him with a hammer. Michael and Charles took turns so they'd both be equally guilty of the homicide. But miraculously, Andre survived their blows. So they grabbed an electric cord and coat hangers and strangled him to death.
Somewhere along the way, maybe after Andre was dead, Charles and Michael realized he barely even had any cash on him. But again, Charles said it wasn't really murder for the money. They wanted to prove they were capable of taking a life. This was just how it came about.
And with Andre dead, they'd been successful at that. But now Charles, Michael, and Thelma had a new problem: how to dispose of the body without being seen. Their solution, once again, was complicated. They wrapped Andre's remains in a shower curtain, then stuffed them inside a sofa in their apartment.
When a neighbor, Tammy Slaughter, dropped by the next day, she was surprised to see the furniture in the room had been rearranged. Tammy was close to Michael, Charles, and Thelma. They lived in the same apartment complex. They were all friends. Later, she'd go on to marry Charles's brother, but she didn't know anything about the homicide, and the roommates wanted to keep it that way. They wouldn't let her sit on the sofa, but in trying to remain normal, they all sat on the sofa instead and just...
Think about that. Presumably this was to prevent Tammy from noticing anything unusual, but I cannot imagine their mindset at the time. Sitting on top of a corpse, pretending to pay attention to whatever's on TV, just praying your guest will leave soon.
Tammy did head home after about an hour. She saw Michael, Charles, and Thelma later again that night. They actually all went out together, and she was surprised when they all climbed into a black truck that she'd never seen before. She asked where her friends got the vehicle. She knew about their financial problems. They couldn't afford this new truck on their own, and Thelma and Michael and Charles just refused to answer her, but Tammy didn't press the issue.
She came back again the next day, and now the sofa was gone, and there was a red stain on the carpet where it had been. As for what became of the couch with Andre's body in it, they just dumped it off a highway. Later on, one of the murderers cooperated with the police, showing them exactly where they ditched Andre. The couch was still there in a remote, marshy area, and Andre's remains were either sewn or nailed inside the couch.
But now they had Andre's body. And when police conducted an autopsy, they found evidence that Andre had been hit in the head with a hammer 10 times. That's five times each. This matched Charles's confession about beating Andre with a hammer. It also matched Rosemary Kerr's psychic vision. Remember, she said she felt a horrendous pain in her head when she connected with Andre's spirit.
But the main investigating officer, Captain James Gallagher, was a lot like Andre's sister, Elise. He just did not believe in the supernatural. And he certainly didn't think a psychic had much to add to this case. So when he heard how this whole thing had come about, about Rosemary's vision, he was skeptical to say the least. But Captain Gallagher couldn't explain how she'd been right about so many things, the location of where to find Andre's truck, the way he died, everything else.
he wondered what else rosemary might know so he set aside his doubts and gave her a call rosemary told the officer all about the visions that she'd had during elise's session this time she didn't hold anything back she explained that she knew all along that andre was dead and she had an idea of where his body had been found even though that information hadn't made it to the newspapers yet there was no way rosemary should have had this knowledge
but she claimed she did anyway. Not an exact address or anything, but she had these impressions. It was a freeway near a railroad, a bridge, and a marshy ground. The number seven was relevant somehow, she claimed.
Now, when the police actually found Andre's remains, they were just off the freeway, off of exit number seven. He was in a swamp just near a bridge with a railroad running nearby. This is exactly as she'd claimed. Captain Gallagher was stunned. Later on in an interview, he said that was the day he began believing in psychics.
And I do want to know, stories like this aren't as rare as you might think. It's not exactly common for law enforcement officers to work with psychics and mediums, but it does happen occasionally. It's a known phenomenon. This doesn't mean every police officer or detective believes in the supernatural. One theory is that psychics are just really good at reading people and interpreting evidence, which makes them naturally good at solving crimes using just their five senses.
Regardless of how they do it, psychics do sometimes provide key tips. It happens often enough that the CIA actually has official guidelines for law enforcement officers who want to work with mediums. I'm serious. Okay, most beauty brands don't understand fine color treated hair, but Proz does. They have a formula that can address my specific type of hair needs, which makes sense because it's based on me.
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And Rosemary's information was compelling enough that she actually testified during Michael Phillips' murder trial. Charles didn't have one because he just agreed to plead guilty off the bat. In exchange, he received life in prison. Michael and Thelma, though, they fought the charges every step of the way. Thelma's trial was fairly uneventful. After hearing all of the evidence, the jury convicted her of second-degree murder. She was sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole.
When Michael's case went to court, though, there was a lot more drama. At one point, he had to be thrown out of the courtroom because he started cursing and causing a scene. But by the time Rosemary, our sidekick, testified against him, the witnesses and jurors were utterly silent. Everyone was amazed at what she had to say, practically holding their breaths so they wouldn't miss a word. She talked about how Elise had hired her and how she had seen Andre's truck and his body in the marsh.
The prosecutors even admitted that photo of Andre, the one that triggered the visions that Elise had brought. They admitted that into evidence. Obviously, this wasn't the only evidence they presented, but Rosemary's testimony certainly made the news. It's rare for a psychic to serve as a witness in a murder trial. And before the jury could make a ruling, Michael reversed his plea to guilty. I guess he realized there was no point in fighting an inevitable conviction anymore.
He, like Charles and Thelma, was sentenced to life in prison, thanks in part to Rosemary Kerr's apparent psychic ability.
but in an interview rosemary told the la times that her meeting with elise wasn't the only time that she'd connected with andre's spirit they spoke on many occasions after this rosemary said that it was more important to andre that his family forgive his killers apparently he didn't want them to carry bitterness and anger over his murder understandably even after hearing this message many of his relatives continued to hold a grudge against the culprits
After all, a homicide is a big deal. I can't blame someone for ignoring a message, even if someone claims it's from beyond the grave. Plus, it may be tempting to dismiss this all as a fluke, to think, well, Rosemary might not be a real psychic. Her predictions about Andre's body and his truck must have made lucky guesses. Maybe she didn't even speak to him. Except that's not the only time that she's used her gift to solve a murder or a serious crime, or even predict one that hadn't happened yet.
Rosemary's first psychic experience came when she was just four years old. She had a nightmare that her uncle tried to kill the whole family by locking them up and setting the house on fire. Weeks later, her dream came true. Her uncle shut his wife and child in the bathroom, turned the lock, and lit a flame. Luckily, her aunt and cousin managed to get out of the burning building alive. Her uncle then spent the rest of his life behind bars, and Rosemary's life was changed forever.
Years later, in 1984, she helped investigate another New Orleans homicide. A woman named Janet Myers was beaten to death with a baseball bat. Janet's husband was charged with the crime, and Rosemary spoke as a witness in his case, speaking about her visions related to Janet's murder. Then in 1991, a different man was accused of sexual assault. This time, Rosemary testified that she had psychic knowledge of his innocence, and the man was actually acquitted.
In an interview, police officers confirmed that they worked with Rosemary on especially tricky cases. She received calls from detectives regularly and shared her insights whenever she could. She couldn't always connect with the spirit, and sometimes she'd have to just politely decline to help at all. There was no way to force her gift, but she loved to help people whenever it was possible. The messages she heard weren't always crystal clear according to her. Like, it wasn't always a voice or a vision. Sometimes she'd just have a gut feeling. Sometimes that was all the police needed.
Rosemary spent her life receiving visions and connecting the living with the dead until March 16th, 2015. That's when she ventured into the great beyond herself. She died at the ripe old age of 80 of natural causes and whatever secrets she had about the world beyond our own, she took them with her. So who knows? Maybe Rosemary was really in contact with the spirits of the dead or maybe she was a very good guesser who was equally good at self-promotion.
It's impossible to say for sure. Some things like the question of what happens after you die cannot be answered by the living. But we don't need to know exactly how Rosemary's methods worked. We can just accept that they did. And thanks to her work, whatever it entailed, the dead were able to find justice. So let me know in the comments below. Do you believe in connecting with spirits?
And how do we explain how Rosemary knew so much about this case before anyone did? Again, it would feel unjust to end this episode before reminding you that there are definitely psychics who take advantage of people in pain. I mean, that's just obvious and it happens.
but there are also times that psychics have helped. Whatever it may be, I'll see you next week as we dive further into the dark. That is our episode for today. I'll see you then.