EP79: It's Just As Bad When It's A Woman
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Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast. I'm your co-host, Ben Diesel, here with my family. Investigators later.

I'm in my Vin Diesel era. Guns out. Guns out. Family, family, family, family, family. It's all I care about. Fast and the Furious, number 27. I have a cameo role in as Vin Diesel's... Stunt double. Yeah, long lost second cousin from Ireland. I mean, you can easily pull it off. Oh, yeah. I fantasize about doing Vin Diesel content all the time now because I did one thing and people were like, oh, shit.

But whatever. We'll see what happens. I saw that piece of content. It was good. Which one where I said I'm addicted to family? Yeah. You were in like a support group circle. Then I wound up grabbing kids from the park. It's like, you know, that's kidnapping. Not if it's family. That's good. I liked it. Anyway, I make it for me.

Welcome back to Earth, Investigator Slater. Yeah, man. You've been on another planet for the last two years. How long? Three years at least. Yeah, yeah. Is how it felt. Yeah, the time difference makes a big, big difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good to be back, but I had a great time in Ireland.

Yes. It was amazing. Ireland, you are amazing. Irish people, you are amazing. Thank you for having me and Firefighter Dave. We had the best time, honestly. Was it so green? The west was. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It was incredible. Well, the east, like where Dublin is, it was a little bit too developed. Not too developed. It's just different. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So we drove across the country because it's what you do.

In two hours. In four hours. Yeah. Exactly. And the difference though, it's insane. You see a lot of farm animals. We saw horses, cows, sheep. Sheep. So much natural beauty. It felt like we were on a movie set. Yeah, you are. You were. Yeah. Shoot a lot of movies out there. It was surreal. Like the Banshees of Inishirn. Yeah, exactly. So I was like trying on a few things with

like one of our tour guides, like I said things like, well, that's not what I'd be tinkering like. And I was like, right, right? And he was like, yeah, no. Yeah. I shouldn't have done that. Well, you should have. But I was trying to like, I don't know. So you could learn a valuable lesson to not do that. We did a true crime tour. Yeah. To try and, you know, see some bad stuff. And it was really funny because the tour guide kept being like, I'm going to say something. Just brace yourselves. It's going to be really, you know, it's very, I'm sorry, but like this is what you signed up for. And he'd be like, cannibalism.

And I'd be like, and? I was such a fucking freak on that tour because- Anything else? What else you got? That's nothing. So I have one of the most excited I've ever been to tell you stories about. Okay. Before I do that, I want to do this first. Oh, and I also got you a gift from Ireland. Okay. We'll look at that after the story before without further ado. The gift will be the last to do. Got it. If you, listen-

I just want to put across to the people how much it helps when you subscribe and all that stuff. Like I'm looking more into it. Like it really does make

you know, the podcast reach more people, which is all we want to do. Why do we want to reach more people? Because she does a great job. And I think people not knowing about it is a tragedy, especially if they're into true crime. But anyway. Very kind of you to say. Yes. Subscribe on Apple, Spotify, YouTube. We have a Patreon, which I'm going to get into in a second. Patreon.com slash psychopedia pod, which is just full. I can't, I don't know any other podcast that puts more content on their Patreon. I really don't.

There was another podcast that used to do a lot. We're outdoing them by like 50%. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we do a lot on Patreon. Going to read off a couple of names real quick. Veronica Heller. Hello, Veronica. Heller. Heller, Veronica. 140-pound dump truck.

What's that? That's when the girl was 140 pounds. Remember? She was short. And I said, damn, shorty got a dump truck. Wow. Good one. Yeah. Charlotte Hawkins. Susan Whitehead. This was the one where I said, wow, puka, not hada.

I know. Well done, Puka. I know. Chibubi's a classic. Can't go wrong. That one spoke straight to my heart. And podcast help with ADHD, I'm living proof. That's someone's name on Patreon. That's a real thing. And finally, thank you for the free trial. I'm poor.

is someone's Patreon name. And I forgot that I put on the free trial, but I did. And I wanted to do that just in case you're not sure about whether or not you're going to like what's over there. Just go over there and sign up for a seven-day free trial. You can listen to everything in the catalog and cancel it. I don't care. I just want people to know that there's other stuff over there. Yeah, yeah, no, I like that you did that. You got a bonus, bonus true crime episode from Investigator Slater called Slaterpedia.

An episode that I do called Tankopedia and episodes of Unhinged that are exactly what they sound like. So without further ado, but a little bit more ado, this is the ado. The Shell gas station by your house. Okay, yeah. That you said was scary. It's scary at night. And I laughed. Yeah. I laughed at you. I remember. Because it's so out in the open that it's like, I just couldn't imagine how it could possibly be scary. So fast forward. Okay.

I'm coming back from Manhattan and I have no gas in my tank. Like I have to stop for gas. I'm like, oh, stop at the show. The scary show. Right by my house? Right by your house. Yeah. Because I knew it was there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I needed gas bad. So I get out, start pumping my gas. I'm on the phone with Damian, right? Uh-huh. What's up, Miba? All of a sudden, out of the dark corner of the parking lot, I see someone making their way towards me rapidly. Uh-huh. Not running, more like...

Frantic a little bit. Like just out of it. I don't know. Anyway, you may have seen the same person that I'm talking about. So he comes over to me, the guy. He goes, excuse me, do you have a quarter so I could buy some juice? And I was like, yeah. What the fuck? Yeah, I know. It's not even getting started yet. So I take out a $5 bill and hand it to him. Okay. Right?

Loses his mind. In a good way. No. No. Immediately starts going, oh, I love to give it to children too when you're under the ground in your casket and they're playing on the grass screaming and you can hear each other. I was like, yo, what is happening, sir? I go, and then he keeps going and I'm on the phone with Damian. I'm trying to listen to him and like also deal with this guy. And he starts moving towards me. I go, I'm getting in the car now. Go.

Yeah, exactly. I just said, I'm getting in the car now. I said, I'm getting in the car now and I'm leaving. And then he does not stop, does not stop. Yeah. I turn to get in my car. I see him move closer to me out of the corner of my eye. I turn around. I go, go inside right now. Oh, the dad voice. Yeah.

And Damian goes, who are you talking to? Like, they're your son. What are you doing? And I laughed so hard. He's like, you're talking to them like they're a dog. I was like, you don't even know what I just. Did he listen? No. I pulled out, peeled out. And as I look back, he's going like this, jumping in the air, pumping his hands. He was so excited. I'm glad to be able to help. But that was, I mean, I literally got so, I put.

I like postured up like a dog. What did I tell you? What did I tell you Cash did at the Shell station? Yeah. He postured up. I know. That's what I did. And he never does that because it's a scary fucking place and I'm sorry you had to learn the hard way. It is. Sorry, not sorry. I went full dad mode on this guy. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, he was not. I love it. He was not there at all. So go inside right now has like been going through my head. Saying it as a joke for the last week. Go inside.

Go inside right now. Amazing. Amazing. So can I give you your gift? Yes. And then we're going to get to the podcast episode. I'm sorry, people. We haven't, you know, we've got a lot of catching up to do. We do. Okay. I got you two items. Item numero uno. Oh, Irish blessing. The Irish saying. Irish saying. You were trying to remember this, if you recall. May the road rise to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. May the sunshine warm upon your face.

And until we meet again, may the Lord hold you in the palm of his hand. You're going to cry? It's going to be okay. And then I got you that. Ooh, the pocketbook of Irish prayers and blessings. It's just so you. Oh, man. And it's beautiful. I was reading through it. And even though, you know, it doesn't, I don't connect with it in the way that I hope you will.

It spoke to me for you. So I brought it all the way back from the Emerald Isle. This is so Irish. Every picture looks like it's stained glass. Yep. And then I got something for Jessica. Okay. You can give to her later. What'd you get her? So fresh lavender. Ooh. And really good for migraines apparently. And then she can take those lavender seeds and she can put them like in her drawers or like in a bowl out or whatever she wants to do with it. We'll see if that makes its way to her. You don't want lavender in your house?

I don't want to give it to her. Oh, okay. Oh, shit. I should have got you the lavender. You can give her the prayer book instead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, she's going to hear this now. Shit. Sorry. All right. Been quite a bit of a do. Yes. Without further ado, let's get to this week's case. Let's go.

On the humid night of June 19th, 1996, just south of the Seattle-Tacoma Airport in Washington State, 27-year-old Marina security guard Dave Shields was patrolling his beat on his security issue bike as he'd done countless times before. It was 1 a.m. and the tide was out, filling the air with the pungent yet familiar smell of rotting mud.

Dave relished the warm breeze and stillness of the marina, enjoying a brief respite before the drunk crowd would soon come spilling out of the bars in loud, sloppy droves. As Dave descended the ramp, what? Oh, he's drinking, but he wants me to stop. Wait, hold on. Was that a homonym for sloppy Joes? Sloppy droves. Uh-huh. Oh, man, that's next level. Hell yeah. Bye, Winston. You're being left behind.

Hello, Kendrick. She's on your ass. That's it. Yeah. As Dave descended the ramp in front of the harbor master's office near the Des Moines Marina as part of his beat, his attention was suddenly drawn to a blue Plymouth Voyager with Alaska license plates that was parked in a lot with its brake lights flickering intermittently.

Dave's initial thought, with this not being his first rodeo, was that someone inside that Plymouth Voyager van was receiving a late-night blowjob and had unknowingly been pressing the brake pedal in the throes of copulative passion.

His initial instinct was to ignore it until the van began to roll forward, causing one of the front tires to jump the curb and lightly crash against an island. Dave's professional instincts kicked in at this point, and he began to realize that this was no standard midnight blowy.

Now, he had begun to suspect a potential DUI and thus decided to follow the van on foot as the driver slowly steered it into the empty parking lot of a nearby restaurant before parking it in a spot. Dave called the suspicious activity into the Des Moines Police Department.

prompting dispatch to send two uniformed officers to investigate. When the police officers arrived and shone their flashlights into the van, they saw a beautiful blonde woman wearing what one officer described as a nightie, which later was determined to be just an oversized t-shirt. The woman climbed into the driver's seat from the back of the van and identified herself as Mary Kay Letourneau. Oh!

a 34-year-old local school teacher from Shorewood Elementary in the Highline School District. She explained that she left home following an argument she'd had with her husband and that she wasn't planning on returning until the next morning to teach him a lesson.

The officers initially found nothing alarming about a woman leaving home after a marital spat. But what sent spidey tingles down their spines was the sight of someone else in the back of the van... Yeah. ...lying on top of a sleeping bag, putting clothing back onto his body. Okay. And the reason... That'll teach him a lesson. ...why the police officers felt sick to their stomachs upon the sight of an individual getting dressed in the back of this woman's van...

was because that individual was Mary Kay Letourneau's 12-year-old student, a boy named Vili Flaoua. Wow. I know this story, I think. You might. Mary Kay Letourneau? Mary Kay Letourneau and Vili Flaoua. I just mispronounced his last name. I don't know Vili Flaoua, but Mary Kay Letourneau sounds very familiar. I'm sure it does.

And the unfolding truth of that horrific situation wound up revealing a scandal that rocked the entire community and then the entire nation. Yes. This is the harrowing, disgraceful, yet in some ways complex case of the sex scandal teacher.

Mary Catherine Schmitz, a.k.a. Mary Kay, was born on January 30th, 1962 in Tustin, California to her mother, Mary Schmitz, and her father, John G. Schmitz. John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmitz? That was her dad? Holy shit. That was really good.

After Mary Kay was born, her mother was unable to care for her for several weeks due to severe complications during childbirth that left her incapacitated. This situation prompted various neighbors and relatives to step in and care for Mary Kay during that time instead of her mother. Now, some sources suggest that Mary Kay's mother struggled to bond with Mary Kay, whether because of the complications during childbirth or despite them, which left a lasting impact on their relationship throughout Mary Kay's life.

But to me, based on what I've read about Mary Schmitz, the mother, it seems like she was just a controlling, domineering woman who prioritized her public image over everything else, including her children. For example, Mary Schmitz maintained an immaculate household in the downstairs of the home and meticulously arranged and decorated everything to perfection.

Visitors would see a silk fabric sofa and a glistening crystal chandelier, epitomizing elegance and sophistication. However, upstairs, where the children slept and, crucially, remained out of view of any visitors, the scene was drastically different. Furniture was either missing or mismatched, with used drawers placed on the floor to hold the children's socks and underwear.

Side note, when I go to someone's house and they apologize for being filthy, first of all, it's never filthy. Second of all, my first thought is like, okay, good. You are a human. Good. That's great. I'm glad I'm not in the house of some absolute psychopath. Do you know you recently said that to me when you came over with the kids? We had like, we fixed it since, but the toilet seat was cracked.

And you went in and used the bathroom and you came out and you're like, do you know how much I love seeing that cracked toilet seat? Because you have children living here and you are normal people. Yeah. Yeah. That's something you truly believe in because you're bringing it up again. Oh, I do. I really do. And I never, I mean, maybe to a fault, I never apologize for my house not being perfect. I don't get it. Well, it's because it's always perfect.

It's not, but we live here. Right. I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm going to tell you. It's not a museum. You know, the kids live hard in the house. Yeah, well, we let our kids like skateboard inside and do all kinds of shit. We got a dog that has social anxiety issues. Eats the house. Eats the house. So like our house is what it is very much. This message is sponsored by Greenlight.

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So anyway, the upstairs bathroom of their household was covered in mold and mildew, which is obviously more than what you're talking about, while the downstairs bathroom was pristine. Now, throughout her entire childhood, Mary Kay maintained a very tight relationship with her father, John. She was the apple of his eye, and in Mary Kay's eyes, he could do no wrong, even when he did. Sorry, I have to caveat what I said.

There's a difference between dirty and messy. I know. And messy, fine. If I walked into someone's house and it was like dirty, I'd be like, I'd be more like, are you guys okay? Do you need help or something? Yeah. I mean, I knew that distinction.

In terms of John being a character in Mary Kay's story, he's kind of an important one. So let me tell you a little bit about him now for context. Okay. John served eight years in the United States Marine Corps in El Toro, California as a pilot and helicopter aviator. After leaving the Marines, he became a professor of philosophy and government at Santa Ana College while also working part-time at Disneyland as a cobblestone cop.

John was undeniably a hard worker who had undeniable charisma. He was considered tall, dark, and handsome and very stylish, known for having that skinny mustache and just this unwavering ability to command a room. He had a skinny mustache? Yeah. I just wrote something on, I forget which platform it was, maybe Threads.

That like if someone has a skinny mustache, it's automatically, no, you're out of my life. Yeah. I can't handle it. Except for that one guy who's in like old movies where he's got the. This was older, keep in mind, right? So this was the 60s. Yeah, I don't care. It doesn't matter. Still, he doesn't get a pass? No, because you have to, you know what you have to do to make that? No, I don't. It's like really weird. Yeah. You have to shave all the way and then stop.

And then let it and have it be... How do you not cut your upper lip? I don't know. You know? Okay. So given John's military background, experience in teaching government, and natural-born charisma, he transitioned into politics in 1964 and became a rather prominent right-wing state senator for California. His career not only catapulted the entire family into the spotlight, but it also significantly shaped Mary Kay's viewpoints and perspectives.

John became well-known for his ultra-conservative views. His tenure in the California State Senate only marked the beginning of his controversial and colorful political career, which included service in the U.S. House of Representatives and a presidential run under the American Independent Party banner in 1972. Wait, John Schmitz, you said? John George Schmitz. John George Schmitz. Jean-Georges von Gerichten, great chef. Jean-Georges St. Pierre. But...

But he ran for president? Yeah. Wow. Okay. Pop quiz. Coming at you early here. During his six-year tenure in the California legislature, what is largely considered to have been John's most notable accomplishment? Okay. A, incorporating school-led prayer in public schools. Okay. B, reducing sex education in schools and restricting access to condoms for young people. Okay.

C, initiating stringent anti-abortion laws that restricted access to reproductive health services. B.

Yes. Yeah. You were confident with that one too. So just keep this in mind as we begin to build upon our understanding of Mary Kay in terms of where she came from and what she was being taught or not taught and how that may have influenced her psychological development. And by the way, B, reducing sex education and making it harder to get condoms. It's like the people that do stuff like that, I almost understand why you think if they can't

You know, if they don't know about it, they can't do it. Like, no, they're going to do it. It's just going to be all wrong. They're not going to know anything. It's unsafe. Yes. So I don't know. There's a lot of denial in that kind of mentality where it's like, well, they don't have condoms. They can't have sex. No, they will. They're just pregnant. Exactly. You're going to have STDs rife everywhere and you're going to have, you know, unplanned pregnancies. Yeah.

All right, so let's bring it back to Mary Kay now. So Mary Kay was the third of seven children being raised by John and Mary in an extremely strict Catholic household where prayers were said at every meal and the entire family regularly attended church after piling into their Catholic Cadillac, as they called it. Mary Kay was also enrolled in an all-girls Catholic school in Anaheim, California, where she was a member of the cheerleading squad.

When Mary Kay was about eight years old in June of 1970, she and her family moved from California to Washington, D.C., following John's special election to the U.S. House of Representatives. Do you know what a special election is? Something happens? Yeah, it's an election that's held to fill a political office that became vacant because the— That just happened with, what's his name? George Santos. Yes, I was just going to say Santos. Yeah.

The Schmitz family spent their time attending lavish fundraisers, smiling for photographers, and participating in publicity events on the White House lawn. And Mary Kay's mother, Mary, perfectly embodied the role of the politician's wife, attending numerous public events with grace and poise as she supported her husband's career and maintained a spit-polished family image.

She was once referred to as the Rose Kennedy wannabe by a family friend named Michelle Jarvis, who I'll be quoting throughout this case, this woman, Michelle. So Rose Kennedy was JFK's mom, and she was like the matriarch of the Kennedy clan. Okay. So Mary, Mary Kay's mom, was passionate and public about her family's staunch, conservative, and religious views. In her own way, Mary became a powerful player in the political arena, just as she had been in the family home. Okay.

Now, despite the fact that she enjoyed making her own waves in the world, Mary, and John for that matter, still believed that a woman's role was to get married and have children.

A bit hypocritical, if you ask me. Right. Yeah. But it's so hypocritical because she's very much in the public arena and she's preaching that women should not be doing that. Well, that's, yeah, rules for thee, not for me. Exactly. That's the worst. But because of these unyielding, yet apparently bendable values, Mary Kay and her two sisters, Terry and Elizabeth, were not treated with the same respect or afforded the same opportunities as their brothers. Right.

They were often relegated to the background, undervalued, and overlooked. Which is why when Mary Kay fell victim to sexual abuse at the hands of one of her brothers...

She believed she had no one to turn to for help, as her brother's word would likely have been taken over hers, given the family's dynamics and her parents' values. This left her feeling helpless, unsupported, and abandoned during a critical period in her life, which further exacerbated the trauma of her experience. Yeah.

And it was around this time that Mary Kay began to essentially live a double life. One very, very much in the public eye where she appeared with her family on television, smiling and waving with her golden blonde hair blowing in the wind, embodying the epitome of the American dream. And another life in which she quite literally hid in her closet,

prayed not to be found by her predatory brother's fondling hands, grappling daily with the reality of her abuse and isolation. In 1973, the Schmitz family wound up moving back to California, specifically to the exclusive Spyglass Hill area of Corona Del Mar after John lost his bid for re-election in the U.S. House of Representatives.

Once back in California, John continued his involvement in politics and resumed his teaching career. And life went on for the family until a very, very tragic turn of events on August 11th, 1973. Before we get into that, can you explain to me what you just said he lost his...

If someone dedicates their life to politics and then they lose, what do they do after that? So he went to teaching, but you said he resumed his life in politics. Do you still say... He did local politics. Oh, okay. And then he actually... We're going to get into it, but then he went back into like national politics. Got it. Okay. All right. So on this afternoon, August 11th, 1973, while hosting a barbecue in their backyard, the Schmitz family experienced an excruciating loss. Yes.

Just after 3.30 p.m., Mary Kay's baby brother, three-year-old Phillip, sadly drowned in the backyard pool while under the watch of an 11-year-old Mary Kay. All right.

She watched from inside her home as firemen hovered over the baby that she was left to watch, pumping his little chest and flooding him with oxygen. She watched as a police helicopter landed, watched as her mother frantically said over and over and over again, as if on repeat,

I only left him for a minute, just a minute. Yeah, it's all it takes. It's so crazy. Sad. But Mary Kay knew even before the helicopter left the property that her brother, the one she had been told to keep an eye on, was gone.

Now, keep in mind, obviously, she was 11. Yeah. So a child. Yeah, it's the parents. Absolutely not her responsibility at all. It's the parents shirking responsibility onto an 11-year-old. Yes. Who's not, listen, some 11-year-olds are very mature. I wouldn't trust any 11-year-old with watching a pool with a three-year-old in it. They're still children. Yeah. Yeah.

Philip James Schmitz was buried in Ascension Cemetery near El Toro, not far from where Nicole Brown Simpson wound up being laid to rest years later. This tragic event was just one dark stroke in the intricate painting of Mary Kay's life, each trauma adding depth and complexity to her troubled psyche. So we're painting a picture, yes? Yeah.

As Mary Kay grew older, she began to relish her beauty. And honestly, I know I say this. I know. Devastating. Shout out to another Patreon. Devastatingly beautiful. She. Or something like that. That was Luca Magnata. Mary Kay Letourneau. Uh-huh. Really, really beautiful. I mean it. Okay. Okay. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. She's probably gross. She thought she was beautiful. And she would spend hours primping before leaving the house. Oh, she was a primper, huh?

Even while still in high school, Mary Kay was constantly being taken on vacations by college-age boyfriends and to yacht clubs where she would sip champagne and soak up all the attention. And she always was getting attention. So again, we see this duality. She's this good Catholic school educated girl by day and this party girl working the crowd by night.

And at this time, her mother, Mary, had also begun to work her own crowd by day because Mary secured a position on a television political commentary program called Free For All. And on this show, day in and day out, Mary debated various issues with several other people while pushing her conservative agenda, including

Her impassioned televised message typically centered on the importance of marriage and family while vehemently speaking out against homosexuality and abortion.

Which made what happened next that much more shocking and ironic. Oh, boy. Pop quiz. All right. What happened just a few weeks after Mary took a major public stance on the importance of marriage and family? Mary Kay Waterno, the daughter, not the mom. No, the mother. Oh, the mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A, it came out that John, her husband, was living a double life and had an entire hidden second family. Okay. B, photographs of the children's unkempt bedrooms and filthy bathroom emerged and were printed in every major newspaper. C, one of Mary's liberal counterparts discovered that Mary's daughter, Mary Kay, had an abortion. Such a setup. First one was John has a second family, dirty rooms, or...

Yeah, that. Mary Kay. Correct. The daughter. C. False. A. True. True. John had a second family? Yes, an entire second family. Listen to this. That's nuts.

John Schmitz, champion of traditional morals and family values. That's how it goes. I know. Who at this point had returned to California State Senate, serving from 1978 to 1982, who issued a press release entitled...

Attack of the Bull Dykes, in which he described an audience of pro-choice supporters as a, quote, sea of hard Jewish and arguably female faces.

Oh, so he, okay, yeah. He was progressive. Who once presented a pro-choice Los Angeles attorney who opposed marrying his wife on a TV show with a chastity belt. This guy was outed for having an extramarital affair and fathering two children out of his wedlock. I mean, it is, I'll never get tired of hearing stuff like that.

I think about this a lot. I've mentioned it so many times on here before, but there's nothing funnier to me than an anti-LGBT politician, staunchly against any kind of LGBTQ anything. Because I know at night they're going to bed going, wish I could suck a dick. Why can't I fucking suck a dick? They can suck dicks. I can't. I'm going to take them all down. I'm going to make it illegal. That's what I'm going to do. Right. Because then if they can't do it,

If I can't do it, nobody can do it. No one can do it. Exactly. God, I want to suck a dick so bad. I'm going to pass laws about it. We're definitely making some sound bites out of that. Just so you know. Yeah, no, it's absolutely correct. It's so funny to me. You got to see what's on their computers. You know what I mean? The reason I constantly bring it up is so that

It's the powers lost from their stance. Like when you see that, you have to know that it's a cover for something 100% of the time. 100%.

If somebody's that outspoken against a specific topic, yeah, for sure. Bold statement. Somebody's quiet about it, not making a big stink there. Because if somebody, what happens, I think, is that when somebody is not loudly against any certain group of people living in sin or whatever, they're a self-aware person who knows that they've done things that maybe they wouldn't be proud of. Not that being gay is not something to be proud of, but just like

I'm a human. You're a human. Cool. Like these people who like prop themselves up as super human. Yeah. I think it's probably a hundred percent. All right. I think I'm here for it. Okay, good.

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Adding insult to injury, the woman with whom John had the affair, Carla Stuckel, had been a former student of his at Santa Ana College where he taught philosophy and political science. And their nine-year secret relationship began while Carla was still John's student. Wow.

It's so fucked up. It's so common though. Yeah, I guess. I'm not saying it's good. I'm saying like the stories like that of...

you know, somebody speaking out against something and then living the exact opposite. But just keep this in mind as we go on with the story. Like this man, John Schmitz, had a whole secret family, started the secret affair with a woman when she was his student. This is all relevant background noise. Yes, I'm feeling that. Yeah.

So I just want to mention, though, listen to how their scandalous affair came to light in the summer of 1982 because they managed to conceal it for nine years. Yeah, that's crazy. Side note, there is work being done at my house. It's just the blower. Leave me alone. I'm sorry. It's almost done. Also, there is a giant pit bull snoring on a recliner behind me. Oh, maybe that's what it was. It's the dog. It's the dog. No, it's the blower. But it's both.

After being seen by a doctor in Orange County, it was discovered that John and Carla's 13-month-old baby, also named John George...

had hair wrapped so tightly around his penis that it was nearly severed. What? And required extensive reconstructive surgery. What hair? So this is not uncommon. Listen to... Listen, I mean it. Okay. It's not uncommon for strands of hair or other fibers to get trapped inside of a baby's diaper and cause ulcerations and infections or if it's a little boy to wrap tightly around the penis. Okay. But according to the surgeon who operated on the baby...

That is so fucked. Was he trying to make his son a eunuch so he couldn't... Oh.

The injury was so severe that the baby was urinating out of a gash on the side of his penis. Oh, my God. Thus, child neglect charges were made against Carla Stuckel, the baby's mother. During legal proceedings, Carla admitted that California State Senator John G. Schmitz was the baby's father, as well as the father of her newborn daughter, Eugenia. Carla knew about his other family, obviously. Yes. Okay. Okay.

Yes, because he's a senator. They're all in the public. John never helped to raise the children, never paid child support, but instead spent his time preaching about morality and the sanctity of family. Well, that's a woman's job, obviously. Men can't help with the kids. Obviously. Men tell people what to do. We don't do it. Exactly, and then they don't follow it. Yeah. After the news broke, John Schmidt's family life, his first family...

His reputation, his political career, it all went down the skibbity toilet. Yes. And the entire family was affected, as you can imagine. Of course. To that end, pop quiz. Skibbity. After news of the scandal broke on every headline and in every news segment, what eventually happened?

A, Mary wound up divorcing John in a very un-Catholic move. B, Mary wound up airing all of their dirty laundry, including that John also wore lacy underwear beneath his clothing. Nice. C, Mary stopped preaching family values on TV and instead went to sell real estate for a psychic in Washington, D.C. B. No. A? Nope. C. C.

See, she stopped preaching family values on TV. She retreated and then she started selling real estate for a psychic in Washington, D.C. Probably occurred to her that there's a lot more to people than you normally know. How the mighty have fallen. That's all I could think about, which is sad for her. It's very sad that this happened. It is. If she was living like that. But it's not without its irony. There's a thing that I have that I can't perfectly describe, but like if someone's telling other people what to do,

Me, let's say for me, if someone's telling me what to do, whether it's through an Instagram video or in real life, if I get the feeling, totally made up feeling that they're living it, I'm way more inclined to listen to it and maybe incorporate it. If someone is talking and you just know for a fact that they're full of shit, like there's nothing worse than that to me because you should just...

Not say anything. Yeah. You should just not say anything. You don't have to, you know, I'm not saying you should do what you're saying. Other people should do, but you should stop talking because it's not, something is not matching up the alignments off. Yeah. And people can tell typically. That's cashy dreaming. Oh, he's dreaming. It's okay, baby. Listen, I kind of want to go snuggle him. Oh no, no, it's okay. Jenner.

I think he got the squirrel. Just also FYI, the felony child neglect charges against Carla were eventually dropped and she was placed on six months of social service supervision.

Why were they dropped? She was ultimately found not culpable of intentionally wrapping the hair around the baby's penis. Okay. Do you know that when my sons were like babies and I would call the doctor and be like, this happened twice, I can remember. I remember being at my parents' house and paging the doctor because he wouldn't stop my older one. And the first thing they told me to do is to make sure there was not a hair wrapped around his penis. It's very common. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you look sick. No, I can imagine it. I'm just trying to, I mean, I wonder if we've, I've never checked my son's peni for hair. Well, then he's maybe never been that hysterical off the wall. Well, I said peni because it's two. Like a cacti, multiple cactuses. Yeah. Yeah, I got it. Got it.

Now, in terms of the real main character of today's case, or one of them, Mary Kay, this is when she was observed to have done a complete 180. So after her father, who she had on a pedestal her entire life, was blown. His cover was blown, right? This is when she completely is said to have changed. Mm-hmm.

She was still engaged in her studies at Arizona State University. She still partied with handsome guys, and she even joined a sorority. But then, at just 22 years old, Mary Kay became pregnant by her boyfriend, a young frat guy from Alaska who also attended ASU, named Steve Letourneau. There's Alaska. That's it. Right in here, Letourneau.

According to Mary Kay, she never intended on spending her life with Stephen as she never really loved him. But Mary Kay, in a state of confusion and fear, felt that she would just have to learn to love Stephen because she was having his baby and would thereafter have to marry him. It's a nice intention. Yeah, sure.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think if she wanted to make it work, then I'm for it. If she felt she had to marry him because there was no choice, you know, that's not great. And

And so four months later on June 30th, 1984, in a Catholic ceremony, Mary Kay Schmitz married Stephen Letourneau. And a few months after that in Anchorage, Alaska, Stephen Jr. was born. A couple of years after that, the family of three moved into a townhouse in Seattle after Stephen Sr. took a job handling baggage at the SeaTac hub of Alaska Airlines located at Seattle Tacoma International Airport. What's up, Bebo? Meanwhile, Mary Kay, now pregnant with their second child, a little girl, was

Completed her courses at Seattle University so that she could become a teacher. Okay, Bebo. You know who Bebo is? Okay, you mentioned SeaTac Airport baggage handler. My very first Tankopedia, which is on patreon.com slash tankopedia pod, was about Richard Russell, a.k.a. Sky King, a.k.a. Bebo. This random guy got into a plane, flew it, did a barrel roll and a flip,

And you'll have to sign up for Patreon to hear the rest. Or just Google it. Fuck me. Dangle the carrot. It's a sweet one, guys. Go over and check it out. That was a very fun episode. It was. It was very good. It was your first one, too. Yeah. So Mary Kay Letourneau began her teaching career in 1989 at Shorewood Elementary School, where

where she taught second grade in the Highline School District located in Burien, Washington. Okay, so now we're kind of getting to the crux of the case, but all of that background was really, I think, relevant to set up what happens next. Yeah. And honestly, Mary Kay was incredible at what she did. She was creative, enthusiastic, patient, bubbly, and dedicated to the growth of all of her students.

And I've seen so many interviews of her students, her former students, their parents, and really everybody said she was like a phenomenal teacher. Yeah. She was comfortable around children and she treated them with a level of respect that was uncommon for teachers to do with young kids in that environment at the time. Yeah.

She was known to get down to their level and to treat children as equals to adults. The warmth and affection that Mary Kay lacked at home in her marriage, she channeled to the classroom, putting her heart and soul into her craft and connecting with her students on a very deep level.

And the students felt her genuine passion. Mary Kay was just somehow different. Not only was she the most beautiful teacher her students had ever seen with her blonde hair and her like bright red lipstick, it was like her trademark look, and her Hollywood smile, but her devotion to them was so intense, so genuine, it was almost palpable. By 1992, Mary Kay and her family, which now included three children, Stephen Jr., Mary Claire, and Nick, were

relocated to one of Seattle's more exclusive areas, Normandy Park. So she had one child with the man, got married, had two more, they're still together, everything's good. Well, they're still together. I don't know that everything's good, but they're said to have like a loveless marriage, but yes, they are one family. Okay. Eventually, she even had a fourth child with Stephen, a little girl named Jacqueline. Despite their seemingly perfect age,

the family faced significant emotional and financial struggles. Mary Kay accrued $27,000 in student loans, along with unpaid medical bills, credit card debt, and $10,000 in back taxes owed to the IRS.

Additionally, her relationship with Stephen was hollow and lackluster, marred by reports of physical abuse as well. And this is when shit gets cray. Okay. Because at this point in the case, Mary Kay was entering the 1995-1996 school year and teaching the sixth grade at Shorewood Elementary rather than second grade, although she had many of the same students that she taught in second grade. Okay, so they're now with her in the sixth grade. Mary Cray. Mary Kay. Mary Cray. Mary Cray.

Mary Cray, yes. Including a young boy of Samoan descent named Vili Fulao. Vili, who was born on June 26, 1983, was an incredibly gifted artist and one of the students handpicked to sit at the classroom's round table, which was a special table reserved for students who Mary Kay saw exceptional potential in. These were the children who were chosen, you know? Yeah.

And Vili's talent set him apart even within that select group. Mary Kay would often buy him art supplies with her own money as Vili was one of four children in a family with very, very limited financial resources. Tragically, his family also lost their home in a fire.

He was being raised by a single mom, Suna, who worked low-income jobs at places like Taco Bell and the local Texaco gas station. His father was a former auto mechanic, preacher, and convicted felon who was currently locked up for assaulting his mother. Despite these challenges, or perhaps because of them, Vili's creativity and artistic ability shone brightly, and it captured Mary Kay's attention off the bat. She

She began driving Villy to and from his art classes and allowing him to spend more time at her home, often sleeping over after they would work late together preparing the sixth grade yearbook. So she was sleeping over Villy's house. Nope, Villy was sleeping over her house. Villy was sleeping over her house because they were working on the yearbook together. Right, and he came from a little bit of a, you know, broken home situation and she kind of...

She did more than this, but at this point, it looks like she's just taken the child under her wing type thing. Sometimes, Vili's teenage brother, Percy, would also be at Mary Kay's house supposedly watching her four children while she and Vili worked on the yearbook. Mary Kay would even allow Percy to drink beer and smoke cigarettes in the house. She's a cool mom. Exactly. Exactly.

By the time the summer of 1996 rolled around, Mary Kay and Villy had become inseparable. Okay, let me remind you though, he's 12. Yeah. They visited art galleries and museums in Seattle and stargazed together at night. Villy started to accompany Mary Kay on errands and while driving her children to play dates. Villy was only one year older than Mary Kay's oldest son. Mm-hmm.

Pop quiz. Okay. After returning back home to Mary Kay's home in Normandy Park after visiting Seattle together, what little souvenir did Mary Kay and Villy bring back with them? A, condoms and candles. B, a yellow bong decorated with characters from The Simpsons. C, two puffin stuffed animals nuzzling into each other romantically. B. No. I mean, the first one was good. I've lost it. Um...

A? Nope. Cool. Yeah. Puffins. Then it must be C. It must be. Puffins, what are they called again? Two puffin stuffed animals nuzzling into each other romantically. So puffins, which Mary Kay indicated to her friend, mate for life. Okay.

And people certainly found it strange at this point that Mary Kay and the quote-unquote little brown boy, as her relatives often referred to him, were spending so much time together. But it was more in the sense that Mary Kay seemed to be giving more attention to this random student than to her own children. Nobody really thought anything more than that was going on. Just a little weird. Right.

Even after Mary Kay was found in the back of a van with Villy, as I mentioned in the beginning of the episode, still no one thought anything sexual was going on. How? Even after the police contacted Villy's mother, Suna, after discovering him in the van...

She actually instructed them just to return Villy back to Mrs. Letourneau. Did they tell her that he was getting dressed in the back of a van? I'm not sure, but the idea that Mary Kay could have been sexually involved with or raping, to use the accurate term, her son was absolutely out of the realm of possibility. Apparently, the police didn't have sufficient grounds to arrest Mary Kay as they lacked probable cause and had not witnessed any actual crime being committed. So nothing happened.

By October of that year, which again was 1996, Mary Kay called her best friend, Michelle Jarvis, who I mentioned earlier in the case, to indicate that she was in love in a way that she had never been before. And the person she was in love with was a student she had a class with. That's how she phrased it.

Mary Kay, according to Michelle, sounded like a teenage girl on the phone with her best friend. Her voice filled with excitement and infatuation, gushing about the intensity of her feelings. She described the butterflies in her stomach, the way her heart raced whenever she thought about her love, and how she couldn't stop smiling. It was as if she'd been swept off her feet for the very first time, experiencing a whirlwind of emotions that left her breathless and exhilarated.

According to Mary Kay, quote, there was a respect, an insight, a spirit, an understanding between us that grew over time. It was the kind of feeling you have with a brother or a sister, a feeling that they're part of your life forever. That makes it better. The actual fuck, right? Like she's very twisted. Yeah. In fact, initially Mary Kay claims that there was nothing illicit about her feelings and

I didn't know what it meant, she said. I felt that one day he might marry my daughter. Yeah, or other stuff. Other stuff. Yeah. Michelle Jarvis, Mary Kay's friend, assumed that this person that her friend was in love with was an adult student who she had maybe taken a class with while she was earning additional credits.

And Mary Kay, of course, never mentioned the age of her love interest, so the facade remained intact. Yeah. Then Mary Kay called Michelle Jarvis back a few weeks later to drop an even bigger bombshell over the fact that she was in love with somebody who wasn't her husband. And that was that she was pregnant. Pregnant.

And that the baby, crucially, was not her husband's. It's a two-off-your-own, boys. Yep. Because it turned out that all of those nights Villy had spent at his teacher's house, supposedly working late on the yearbook or visiting art galleries in Seattle, Mary Kay was actually raping him. With her own children and husband in the house.

And I use that phrase, rape, obviously, because that is exactly what it was. Yeah. Billy was a 12-year-old child and Mary Kay was a 34-year-old woman. Now, I want to ask you a question. Sure. What does a pedophile look like? Well, there's no answer. Why?

I know what you're doing. So play along. Anybody can be a pedophile. Yes. Yes. Right. I thought you were going to say that. I'm sorry. I said it could be whatever I said, and then I thought you were going to say, yes, it could be anybody. No, well, no. Yes. It could be anyone. You really put a lot of pressure on me right there. It's okay. Listen, they look like you.

They look like me? No, they don't look like me. They look like your next door neighbor? They look like your teacher. They do look like my next door neighbor. They do not walk around with a scarlet letter or with fangs or talons. They are not obvious monsters. They are human beings and they walk among us. And I don't say that to scare anyone. I say that to raise awareness.

Alarmingly, over 90% of offenders are someone the child victim knows and trusts. Typically, child molesters go out of their way to create the appearance of being upright members of society. They insert themselves into situations where they have easy access to children and strive to create opportunities to be alone with the child. According to Race Against Abuse of Children Everywhere, which is an organization, the acronym R-A-A-C-E or RACE,

An estimated 80 to 90% of offenders are male, while the remaining 10 to 20% are female. And this is exactly what, you know, so many of the cases are that I work on at work, right? It's children who were sadly sexually abused by their religious leader and the Boy Scouts case. Yeah. Because people, these pedophiles were putting themselves in situations where they basically had unfettered access to

to vulnerable children. These children weren't with their parents when they were with their priest. They weren't with their parents when they were camping with a scoutmaster. I'm so glad that I was never molested as a kid. I was an altar boy. I was in the Boy Scouts. I was in bad positions with retrospect. Yes. I don't even know if that's the right word. Yeah. Yeah, well, and Dave also, I mean, his rabbi was busted as we've talked about before. So he was like,

Very close to that type of a terrifying situation. Most perpetrators will continue to abuse children if they are not reported and stopped. Statistically, nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between one and nine victims and at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims. Oh my God.

Horrific. 20% is a big number too. Yeah, it is. The past decade has led to more recognition of the capacity for women to engage in sexual offenses against children.

In 2019, the BBC found there had been an 80% increase in reports of sexual abuse by women. Wow. And before that, in 2015, forensic psychologist Dr. Joe Sullivan suggested that the number of women sexually abusing children was much higher than even the conviction rate suggested, obviously. I have a question. Yeah. Do you think that's because...

The idea that women can molest young boys was being talked about more because probably in the past it was just like, yo, dude, I fucking kissed my teacher. It's literally what I'm coming up to now. Okay. The reasons for the low conviction rates are cited as...

the fact that male teenage victims in particular feel reluctant to come forward because of a fear that their experience A, will be viewed not as abuse and that they feel pressure to view their sexual encounters with these women as like a badge of honor. That's crazy that at a, up to a certain age,

perceived perception or the anticipated perception is flipped. Explain. Meaning in adulthood, I guess more, it's like women are scared that they're not going to be believed. Men, when they're younger, are scared they're not going to be believed. Yeah. Because it's like, well, you obviously wanted to do it or you were obviously playing a part. And it's like, well, I was 12, so I didn't really have much of a... We have male clients who were sexually abused by...

female teachers or even nuns. And they said that when they tried to come forward, like either the two things, they weren't believed or somebody would be like, well, good for you, man. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. What are you complaining about? But it expires at like 17 probably. Right. For men. Right, right, right. Yeah. Which is so devastating, obviously. It's like when we talk about topics of domestic violence, men can be in domestic, you know, violent situations as well. They can be abused by any partner. Yeah. Yeah.

I do think that historically, there's always been this double standard where if a man rapes or molests a child, he is instantly, correctly, villainized. But if a woman is placed in the spotlight for sexually abusing a child, the reaction differs significantly. And society tends to downplay the severity of her actions, sometimes even trivializing or even romanticizing the abuse if the victim, like Vili, was of a certain age, right? Yeah.

Dr. Sullivan also points out the discrepancy in sentences applied to female abusers who abuse teenage boys and female abusers who abuse young children in the family home or a nursery, the latter category tending to get more substantial sentences, which is exactly what you just said.

Regarding Mary Kay Letourneau, many of her actions demonstrated classic predatory behavior. She worked in a field with unrestricted access to children. She presented herself as exceptionally wonderful and glamorous, and she groomed her victim with calculated precision. Oh, yeah. Vili, aside from being 12, came from a low-income, single-parent household and was incredibly vulnerable, which made him an easy target.

This is where the complexity of the case comes in, by the way. On the one hand, it's starkly black and white. And I believe this. She preyed upon a young boy and she sexually abused him. Like, end of story. Okay. And honestly, I believe that. However, there are people who knew Mary Kay who grappled with mixed emotions about this, knowing who she was before this incident and noting that she never re-offended. So after Vili, nothing like this ever happened again. So...

It's like this complex case because people who know her, like, maintain that it was, like, actually love. I mean, she raped a child. She did rape a child. Is it possible that we're thinking that because she's a woman? Like, back to what you were saying before, like, you know, it's not a big deal. The kid probably liked it, whatever. Like, that's a common...

Right. Because, again, like the whole point of statutory rape laws is that somebody that young can't give consent. Right. They can't watch a three-year-old in a pool. They can't consent to sex with an adult. Exactly. Exactly.

At the very least, there's some kind of coercion or manipulation going on. Grooming, all of that. And while she may... I don't know if I agree with the whole she didn't mean to do it thing at all. I don't think she's set out. In other words, I don't think that she's a pedophile that...

became a teacher so she could have, you know, early unfettered access to children. I don't think that she had that intention, but I don't... You think she started spending time with this kid because he needed help and then feelings arose? I think that she's psychologically very complex. I think she came in with a lot of baggage. I think she's very twisted. I think she's manipulative. I think she's an abuser. And I think that it happened to have, like, manifested with Villy. But I don't think that she...

targeted him specifically. She may have also... Although, I don't know about that. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I don't know about that because he came from this vulnerable background. She was buying him art supplies. She was driving him to and fro. I think... She also could have been completely, like, totally emotionally stunted at 11 when her brother died on her watch. And she dated some guy because she thought it was the right thing to do. She got pregnant, so she married him because it was the right thing to do. But then when she met this kid, it was like an 11-year-old... Second shot, almost. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is so... Or she may just relate to him more because she's stuck at that 11-year-old mentality. Right. That happens a lot. I mean, people don't talk about it that much, but a lot of times when you run into somebody who's a pain in the ass or they're difficult or they're just like wildly immature or lack self-awareness, typically it's because they just got stunted at some point and never progressed past that. Happens a lot with... What about the fact that she was a fully functioning adult person

not seemingly stunted woman in every other aspect of her life. She was a teacher. Yeah, she was a teacher, a mother of four. I mean, she was a functioning member of society. Yeah. Very much so. I mean, on paper, we don't know what was going on in her head when she was teaching or... Right, no, we don't. What was going on at home. When she was teaching, she may have been like, cool, I'm hanging out with my friends.

Unconsciously, I mean. Which, yeah, which it's true. If you do hear the interviews, like by her former students, you know, they always say that she spoke to us like we were on her level. Well, you know what? You weren't. Right. You weren't, but maybe she thought you were. Yeah. Maybe you're onto something. Per usual. Nice.

So what happened next after Mary Kay got pregnant with the baby of her 12-year-old student? Well, her husband Stephen went on to discover numerous love letters in Mary Kay's bedroom drawer that had been exchanged between his wife and her young student. What Stephen didn't know at the time was that his wife was already six months pregnant with Billy's baby.

So Stephen took a drive over to Villy's house and flat out asked the child if he was quote unquote having an affair with his wife. Oh my God. To which Villy replied, What's an affair? Yes. Oh, he said yes? He did. Stephen wound up discussing this extremely shocking, indecent, abusive, illegal situation with his family members, which prompted one of his relatives to call officials at Shorewood Elementary School.

One month later, after extensive questioning and investigation, Mary Kay Letourneau was arrested on the night of March 4th, 1997 by officers from the Des Moines Police Department in Washington. And when that happened, Mary Kay was unarmed.

utterly shocked because Mary Kay maintained and continued to maintain long after her arrest that she had no idea that what she was doing was a legal issue, rather just a moral one. And morally, she felt it was not wrong because she and Villy were in love. Needless to say, she was mistaken because child rape is very much a legal issue as well as a moral one.

Accordingly, Mary Kay was charged with two counts of second-degree child rape. And while awaiting trial, Mary Kay lived back at home where her husband, Stephen, allegedly punched her in her very pregnant stomach and hit his car into her body. Mary Kay called the police and filled out a police report, but without sufficient evidence or witnesses, no charges were ever filed against Stephen.

At this point, though, he took their four children up to Alaska to live as they were suffering tremendously from all of the horrific and humiliating publicity, constant media attention, and public scrutiny. I mean, they were all victims. Yeah. Yes. Then on May 23, 1997, while on parole and all alone, Mary Kay gave birth to a baby girl, Audrey.

after which she pleaded guilty to two counts of child rape. And because of her guilty plea, the trial did not involve extensive arguments typical of contested trials. However, the defense and prosecution still presented key arguments during the proceedings, especially at sentencing, with King County Superior Court Judge Linda Lau presiding over the case.

The prosecution emphasized the gravity of Letourneau's actions and argued that Mary Kay, as a teacher, violated a position of trust and authority and exploited her role to engage in an inappropriate and illegal relationship. They stressed the psychological and emotional harm caused to Villy, who was a minor and therefore unable to consent. Well, Villy, her four kids, and her child with Villy, all are...

I agree. One, obviously more than other, Vili, but just by, I don't know. Do we know what happened with the baby? Like with the baby that she had with Vili? Yeah, I'm going, we're getting to all that. Okay. The defense highlighted Mary Kay's mental health struggles, including claims of untreated bipolar disorder, which they argued contributed to her behavior.

The defense also argued that she did not initially set out to harm Vili and that their relationship, which I hate calling it that, but that their relationship, while inappropriate, was consensual from her perspective.

They argued for leniency based on Mary Kay's prior good character and lack of criminal history, emphasizing that she was a strong candidate for rehabilitation and could benefit from treatment rather than a lengthy prison sentence. Ultimately, Mary Kay Letourneau accepted a plea deal. But before her sentence was handed down, she had the opportunity to address the judge directly. And here's what she said. Quote,

I did something that I had no right to do morally or legally. It was wrong. And I am sorry. I give you my word. It will not happen again. Please, please help me help us all. Presumably, I guess she means the baby that was born. But the truth was she really didn't think that she had done anything wrong.

However, saying all the right words helped tremendously when it came to her sentence. Because while Mary Kay Letourneau was initially sentenced to seven and a half years in prison, all but six months of the sentence was suspended on the condition that she undergo sex offender treatment and have no contact with Vili.

Meaning she only had to serve six months in jail. Then something happened while out on parole that wound up altering her extremely lenient sentence. Okay. Pop quiz. What happened that wound up altering her sentence? A, she was discovered with a nine-year-old neighborhood boy in her car, whom she alleged to have been driving home from school.

B, she attempted to take baby Audrey up to Alaska so that she could reunite with her four other children. Okay. C, she raped Villy again and got pregnant with their second child. B. No. Well, then you lied. Okay? Okay. So, you lied. Okay. Do you know why I'm saying that? No. Because you said she never reoffended.

Oh, I did say that. You're right. I meant to say with anyone else. So it's C. It's C. Wait, say C again. She raped Billy again? And got pregnant again. No. Yes. Oh my God, dude. I know. I know. I know. I know.

Just a few weeks after she was released on parole, Mary Kay violated the most important condition of her probation when she had contact with her teenage lover slash victim yet again. Undercover cops discovered Mary Kay with Billy on February 2nd, 1998 at 2.24 a.m. in a parked van with a significant amount of steam and condensation buildup on the interior windows.

parked on the side of the road with its lights on in the heavy Seattle rain. They're always doing it in the van. Yeah, why is she in her van? I don't know. And inside that van, police found Mary Kay's passport, spare clothing for Villy, and $6,000 in cash. She was looking to bounce. It turns out that after her release, the pair had engaged in numerous meetings, secretive get-togethers at Seattle's Pike Place Market, and public excursions to see the couple's favorite film, Titanic.

But even bigger than that, at some point over those few weeks out on parole, Mary Kay got pregnant yet again with Philly's baby. Yeah, my God.

Needless to say, King County Superior Court Judge Linda Lau revoked the suspended sentence and imposed the full prison term, ordering Mary Kay to serve the full seven and a half year prison sentence. From behind bars during an interview, Mary Kay provided, she said the following, quote, I would not expect people to understand. It did exist and it was real. I love him. And honestly, when the sexual relationship started, it seemed natural. I love him.

What did I feel? Respect in a relationship, a mutual respect, a deep love. I love him.

Yeah, I mean, okay. Yeah. In February of 1998, Vili's mother again took care of the product of her son's union or rape and then filed a lawsuit against the school district for $1 million claiming school officials failed to protect her son. She should have gone for more. Vili wanted no part of the lawsuit as he continued to assert that he was never a victim. Okay.

By the way, his mother, Suna, she wound up losing the lawsuit. How? They said that the school district was not liable for what she did outside of school. I don't see how that could possibly be. And I also wonder if that case were to happen now, I bet the outcome would be entirely different. But in spite of what Vili may have felt or thought he felt about his consensual, air quotes, relationship with his teacher and maintaining that he was not a victim...

He was. Yeah. Children and adolescents are in a crucial stage of brain development, particularly in the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for decision-making, impulse control, and understanding consequences. Yeah. And that part of the brain does not fully mature until the mid-20s, meaning...

Children and adolescents lack the cognitive capacity to fully understand and consent to complex sexual relationships. I can't tell you how many clients we have who still, even though they're coming forward with the case, they still will say things like, yeah, but I was okay with it. Yeah. You know? That's what you convinced yourself of. Yeah, exactly. You didn't have that capability to be okay with it. Yeah. Yeah.

And in terms of consent or the illusion of consent, a child like Vili may appear, appear being the operative word, to agree to a relationship or express feelings of affection. But this does not equate to informed consent. The power imbalance between an adult and a child inherently makes true consent impossible. Yeah.

Studies consistently show that relationships between adults and children are damaging and exploitative. Relationships are in air quotes for anybody not on YouTube.

Yeah. Ugh.

and struggled with alcoholism and his mental health. In 2001, he was hospitalized for psychotic depression on his therapist's recommendation. During his mother's failed lawsuit against the school district, it was revealed that Vili was not receiving adequate support and was deeply affected by the situation. Despite these challenges, Vili had a complex relationship with the public perception of his experiences and often struggled with the label of being a victim...

though he has acknowledged the difficulties he's faced due to the relationship. In a 2020 interview with People Magazine, so not that long ago, Vili even stated, I'm surprised I'm still alive today.

Regarding Mary Kay Letourneau's mental health issues, the defense during her trial indicated that she had untreated bipolar disorder, which I mentioned. However, what stands out to me is that before she preyed upon Vili, and we also touched upon this, there didn't seem to be any significant or negative impact.

impact of this alleged condition on any other aspects of her life. And this is what gets me. Aside from having a shitty marriage, she was a highly functional woman with a steady career, four children, and a healthy social life.

Instead, there may have been some cluster B personality disorder symptoms based on my research, I'm not an expert, such as narcissism and a sense of entitlement. Borderline personality disorder or BPD has also been suggested given her impulsivity as well as histrionic personality disorder, which is marked by vibrant, ingenuous,

enchanting, overly seductive, and inappropriately sexual behavior. That all checks out here. Histrionic what? Histrionic personality disorder. I like the word histrionic.

Furthermore, Mary Kay exhibited zero remorse except for getting caught and lied to the judge when she claimed to understand that what she did was wrong. At the end of the day, many believe that Mary Kay Letourneau was simply a criminal, plain and simple, fully aware of her actions and continuing to prey upon her victim regardless of the consequences. After Mary Kay was eventually released from prison on August 4th, 2004 as a registered level two sex offender, she was released from prison

She and Vili wound up getting married on May 20th, 2005 and raising their two daughters, Audrey and Georgia, as one presumably happy family.

They mostly stayed out of the public eye following their wedding until their reappearance in May of 2009 for which of the following reasons? Okay. Pop quiz. Pop quiz. All right. What did they do? A, appeared at a Seattle sports bar for Hot Teacher Night at which Mary Kay emceed and Vili DJ'd. Okay. B, launched a podcast called Breaking Boundaries about their life experiences and challenges. Okay.

C, attempted to get the law changed around the phrase consensual with respect to age of consent laws in Washington state. Yes. Yeah. It's the most absurd one. His DJ name was DJ Headline. Very cool. Villy. He was in the headline. Oh, yeah, yeah. Then in May 2017, after 12 years of marriage, 33-year-old Villy Folau filed for separation from 55-year-old Mary Kay Letourneau.

In early 2020, Mary Kay was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer and died six months later on July 6th, 2020 at the age of 58. Vili apparently remained by her side and provided her with 24 hour care for the last month of her life. I just actually watched an interview with Vili where he was discussing her final moments. And apparently the last thing she told him was that he was the most important person in her life and that everything was going to be okay. Yeah.

The Mary Kay Letourneau case remains one of the most complex and controversial stories in recent history because on the surface, it is a clear instance of an adult abusing a position of trust and authority to prey upon a vulnerable child. Yet the intricacies of the case, including Mary Kay's background, the psychological dynamics at play, and her subsequent behavior, add layers of complexity that challenge simple moral judgments for some. Yeah.

While she undeniably committed a grave wrong, the fact that she did not reoffend and the mixed emotions of those who knew her complicate the narrative. Ultimately, however, protecting children must always remain the priority because their vulnerability demands our utmost vigilance above all else. And our future depends on having mentally well-adjusted, healthy children.

and when this happens, like... Absolutely. You know? I agree. In my mind, it's... I said earlier, it's the black and the white. Like, she's 100% a predator. Yeah. Her saying she's not a criminal is funny to me because there's... I hear that in meetings a lot. People get arrested or tell stories of how they got arrested and they're like, I'm not a criminal. It's like, didn't you just do a crime? Yeah.

That's why someone called the cops. That's why we're arresting you. Right. So whether or not you want to be a criminal is irrelevant. You are. You are. You've done something criminal, right? How am I not myself? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, so that's the case. It's a wild one. Yeah, so I knew the name. I did not know any of that. So thanks for bringing that up. Yeah, you're welcome. Yeah. When I heard the name, I don't know why I know it. Maybe it's because...

I'm trying to think. I don't want to say anything too crazy, but I think I was in high school at the time, 16 or something. Yeah. And I think my thought back then was like, cool, dude. It probably was. I know. But that's a 16-year-old brain. Exactly. Exactly. And imagine like, you know, if Vili were one of your peers, why he maybe wouldn't have come forward even if he wanted to. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Because that would be the reaction he'd be confronted with. And that's the last kind of reaction you want when you come forward and you're like, hey, something bad happened to me. And then people are like, yo! Absolutely. Well, I said it was bad. Yep. Why are you cheering? Right. Why are you patting me on the back? Yeah. It's really horrific. I mean...

He was a victim. Oh, yeah. You know, flip the script, right? A male 34-year-old teacher... You don't even need to flip the script. No, I'm just saying, and it's for those who struggle with it or like who... You know what I mean? Yeah. It's the same thing. It is an adult preying upon a child. Yeah, there's like a surface double standard, but once you look past the surface, you're obviously, I think in my opinion, able to see...

Yeah, this is not a cool thing that happened. Absolutely agree. Yeah. So do you have a tank's titty for us? I do have a tank's titty. Shaking them titties. It's tank's titty time. Wow. Yeah. Impressive. You don't even need to. Wow. Guys, definitely head over to YouTube for that little show. Yes. Okay. So I had a thought the other day. I'll just say the thought and then try and explain it. So I wrote down, you can fight without struggling. Okay.

Meaning, I think that people, when they're struggling with something or they're dealing with something that is like just grinding them down, they feel either that A, it's all their fault that this thing is not working or they have to like, or they like give up on it kind of because they don't know that you can fight without struggling. I'm speaking to myself also. Like you can put effort in towards a better life,

without being so rigid about your approach to it,

And I think that, yeah, it just clicked being fluid. Like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to address this issue. The first way I did, it didn't work. It actually kind of made it worse. So now I'm going to try this way and being flexible. I talked to my son about this all the time. There's a phrase, I don't even know if this is, this belongs to 12 steps, but my friend Brendan used to say, wear sobriety like a loose garment, right?

Or wear life like a loose garment if you're not into sobriety. And it took me forever to realize what that meant. It actually only very recently –

clicked more for me when I thought of the exact opposite of it, like living life in a loose garment versus living life in a concrete block where like, no, it has to be this way. So my son, who's kind of like rigid, a little bossy or whatever, I said to him the other night, I was like, so you're in bed, right? You got these pillows all around you, a soft bed, a blanket. You can move around freely. Imagine you were sleeping in a wood suit. Hmm.

that would suck, right? So try and handle life like you're in right now. So you have to, if you want to turn over, you have to roll over. You have to physically roll over, but you're able to because you're not so rigid in the way you approach things. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. I love it. I'm going to start wearing big garments to remind me of that. Okay. If it was socially acceptable, I'd be cloaked in velvet. It is. Draped in velvet. If that's what you want. That's a Seinfeld quote. Still socially acceptable in my book. Is it? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

We'll see about that. Thank you for doing all that work. I really appreciate it. You really brought the heat and the details. My pleasure. I brought the guns. Yes, you did. And I think without, you know, without anything else, I just want to say thank you for listening. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. If you made it this far, Megs, you're a real one. Yeah. And we'll see you guys at the next episode. Bye.