EP73: Exorcised to Death
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Investigators later. I can't nail it every single time. I'm sorry. I didn't even try. Okay.

All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast. I'm your co-host, Hank Sinatra, here with my psycho micro co-host... Investigators later. That's, I feel like, I'm just gonna, that's gonna be it. You set the energy stage with your intro. Did you hear how differently that investigators later came out? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. That was an experiment on my end. Well, okay. What'd you learn? I learned exactly what I thought was gonna happen. Okay.

No, that was not intentional. But anyway, here we are. We're going to record a nice little episode of a true crime podcast. Looking dope as hell. I got my Dick's sunglasses on. I have my gas station sunglasses on. It's so funny because I would never, ever wear sunglasses like this. Ever. That you're wearing right now? Yeah. Yeah. But you feel...

Like you're most yourself in this space, right? Yes. I saw another podcaster talking about wearing sunglasses because he made the guy he was on the podcast with wear sunglasses. They were like, he's like, it's nice, right? It's nice. It reminds me of the Easter Bunny thing. Like being in the Easter Bunny suit allowed me to get nuts on your cabinet. You're a little bit like... Not yourself. Exactly. Yeah. Behind that like fourth wall type thing.

Is that what it's called? No. No. It's okay. Your inhibitions are removed because your identity is obscured. Obviously, you nailed that. Wow. Holy shit. So, yeah, you know everything about this case, more than you should probably. I know nothing. If this is your first time listening, welcome. If this is your 1,000th time listening, welcome home, freak. Freak.

And I just think I want to get into the podcast as, you know, always rate, review, subscribe, YouTube, Apple, Spotify, whatever. Do whatever you want to do. Okay. If you're into it, great. If not, you don't have to. I don't subscribe to podcasts, whatever. I listen to them. Okay. You should though, because you know what it means now to do that. It helps them out so much. Yeah. Okay. I will. You know, pay it forward.

Yes. I just want to say one thing while we were talking about the sunnies and the glasses. This made me remember something. Did you know that firefighter Dave has been volunteering with an organization called Be My Eyes? Oh, yeah. Well, I don't know he did it, but I know about it. He did it. The other day, a man called and was asking him to help him program his treadmill. Yeah. And then a woman called, and I hear Dave go, I believe that color is more of a rust. So I go, Dave,

What were you doing? He said the woman needed help picking out a shoe. So Be My Eyes is an app where blind people register. They get to FaceTime with people who volunteer to just describe what is in front of them, help them out. Right. Yeah. Dave's been doing that. And I overheard a couple and it was really, really great. I've posted about that on Thanksgiving News a few times. Yeah. It's,

It is. They're so grateful because I could hear them on the phone. Oh, my God. Imagine not being able to see and then dialing a phone and someone being able to tell you what to see. And getting somebody like Dave, who's the most patient person in the world. I think it's more of a rust color. I don't think anybody who would sign up for that app is not going to be that type of person. That's true. That's true. Great app. Great organization. Before we get into the case...

If you love us and you want more of us, we have it for you. Ready to go over at patreon.com slash psychopediapod where we do an episode of Unhinged every week, bonus, where we revisit a case.

I am able to speak barely over there. Slaterpedia, which is now in full swing, where it's a bonus episode per month that you've never heard from us before. I don't know if you've heard it in general, but we've never done it. It's a full-fledged psychopedia true crime case, just like what you're listening to right now, but over there. Exactly. And Tankopedia once a month, which is when I present a case, and boy, do I have a fucking duke.

doozy for you today. I cannot wait. You're going to lose your shit. I cannot wait for you to hear what I'm about to talk about. I'm pumped. And you know what I want to do? Retro, vintage action here. I'm going to read a couple of Patreon names. I love it. Gilgo Gaggins. That's amazing. I mean, that's obviously shout out to the coverage of the Gilgo Beach Murderer, which we just re-released because there was an update. Marina Palomino.

This is Victoria, by the way, which is an ode to our Instagram page. Aduzy Faloozy. Amazing. Amazing. Erin Buschetta. Hello. Reminds me of Bruschetta, obviously. Erin is my middle name as well. Is it really? Yeah. Okay. Laying in the grass and minding my own shabby's wax. Do you think laying in the grass is because I said I had to lie down in the grass after doing so much true crime research? 100%.

Amazing to that person. These subtle little nods to the episodes are everything. You're listening. I know. I love it. And Christy Brady. Listen, you don't have to make a funky name on Patreon. You don't at all. At all. No judgment.

So whatever your name is, I'm on Patreon. Come as you are. I don't even know how to change my name. Isn't that crazy? You're asking me if it's crazy that you can't do something? I can't do shit on the internet. I'm still Tank on Patreon. So we just wanted to honor some of you Patreon supporters. We love you. We appreciate you. We appreciate you listening right now in the main feed. We appreciate it all. We love and honor you.

honor and cherish every single one of you little psychos. And if you're on YouTube, please maybe consider doing your part and leaving a heart. Yeah, which we, I mean. Tagline. They've been doing it though. I know. They've been doing it. Thank you. Yeah. So without further shabby's wax, why don't we get into this week's case? See what you have in store for us. In 2005, a 19-year-old college student in the U.S. awoke to a sense of impending doom as the clock struck 3 a.m.,

Her room was cloaked in darkness as shadows danced eerily in an atmosphere thick with dread, while an unseen malevolence seemed to physically press down on her. She heard faint whispers that grew louder and more insistent, forming a cacophony, nice, of unintelligible words that chaotically echoed through her mind.

Suddenly, the young woman's body began to wildly contort in unnatural ways as her limbs twisted and her back arched off the bed. Her eyes, wide with terror, rolled back into her head while she gasped for breath. She opened her mouth to release a primal scream, but the voice that emerged was not her own.

It was deep, guttural, filled with rage, and unrecognizable as it spat out words in ancient languages. What the fuck? Taunting, threatening, evil. Ew. As the woman thrashed about, objects in the room started to move of their own accord. Books flew off the shelves and the bed shook violently and

as the crucifix on her wall turned upside down. Okay, what's happening? Her face contorted with unbearable pain and visceral fear, and her body now writhed on the floor. She screamed, a sound that was both human and inhuman, filled with agony and desperation. It was clear that the demonic force within her seemed to revel in her suffering as it pushed her to the brink of madness.

This scene may sound familiar to those who have seen the 2005 film called The Exorcism of Emily Rose, starring Jennifer Carpenter. It's hard to forget the vivid depiction of the horror of possession that blended physical torment with psychological terror.

While the story of Emily Rose was presented on the silver screen as a strange and twisted horror film, her character was actually based on a very real person with a very real story of perceived demonic possession and exorcism. Today, we are covering the case of Annalise Michelle, a young woman who endured not one, not two, but

but 67 demonic possessions and exorcisms, each more grueling than the last. Her relentless battle with what she believed to be demonic forces culminated in an outrageously tragic demise, a brutal end to her battle against spiritual warfare.

Annalise's story is a haunting blend of fear, faith, and human suffering, making it one of the most compelling and tragic tales of exorcism in modern history. Amos ad momdom. Definitely that's not how it sounds. I'm going to try it again. That's Latin for let's fucking go. Amos ad monum? Amos ad ma-ad ma-dom.

You know what is my favorite Latin phrase that I literally want to get tattooed on me? What? Ad infinitum. Oh, you've said that before. Oh, I fucking love it. It's so good. I've heard you use it. I mean, it's just forever and ever. I was going to say limitless, but yeah. Ad infinitum. Anyway. So we're talking about a real life possession here. And 67 exorcisms. Wait, hold on. They did an exorcism every time? Yeah.

Oh, my. That priest was fucking killing it. Well. Making money. He was killing something or someone, as you will go on to hear. Oh, boy. All right, so let's get into it. Have you ever been possessed real quick? I've definitely had like outer body experiences where I've left my body. I don't know that I've ever had anything enter my body. Where you can crack your back with your own force.

Like, crack your back, break your back. No, Tank. I have never broken my back with my own force. And he's never made a full revolution or rotation around the neck? I can't promise that one. It's possible. Yeah.

I believe that I once flew as a child. Why do you believe that? Because I know that I did because I lived through it and I remember it. How far did you fall? There was my next door neighbor's house and my parents' house and a hill. And I literally was like, I'm about to fly to my parents' house over this hill. And I did. Okay, hold on. How old were you?

I'm going to say 10. Oh, fuck. Okay. Well, it's not like you were three or four and your memory's fucked. You're 10. There's no fucked memory here. It happened. Okay. So you are telling me, Investigator Slater, on this day in the year of our Lord, 2024. It's your Lord, but yeah. It's just a phrase. Okay. That you...

legit flu. Yeah. I think I might be a little bit witch, but that's another topic. You believe that? Oh my God, Tank. Yes. Why? You believe that somebody rose from the dead and blesses the entire world. Why can't I believe that I flew for a hot second? Thank you for making my point.

That's exactly what I was going to say. And it's belief, right? I don't believe your version of things, but I believe mine. Very interesting. We can't delve into it here. We'll have to do it another time. Come over to Patreon, guys, because I can tell we're just getting started on this. Yeah, okay. Okay, let's get back to the case.

Anneliese Michel was born on September 21, 1952, in Liebelfing, Bavaria, West Germany. She was the oldest of four girls, though technically born after the death of her older sister Martha, who sadly died at just eight years old from complications during surgery to remove a kidney tumor. So the day after Anneliese was born, her deeply religious and traditional Roman Catholic parents, Anna and Joseph Michel, had her baptized immediately.

The Michelle family was deeply, deeply rooted in their faith with strong religious ties that influenced every aspect of their lives. Every aspect. Yeah. Three of Annalise's great aunts were nuns, and Annalise and her three sisters, Roswitha, Gertrude, and Barbara, were often encouraged to pursue religious life throughout their upbringing. The Michelle family lived in a comfortable two-story home in Klingenberg near Joseph's sawmill, which he owned and operated. Yeah.

But before starting a family, Joseph had been drafted to fight with the German army during World War II at the age of 23. And during his time serving, Joseph was captured by the Americans while fighting on the Eastern Front and was held as a prisoner of war for a short time. So after his eventual release in June of 1945, Joseph attended school in Munich for construction. Then he got married.

And then he devoted his entire life and his family's entire life to the Roman Catholic faith. And this is Joseph. Correct. This is Anneliese's father. Now I bring up his background here because it's been speculated that his time in the war may have desensitized him to violence and hardship, potentially influencing his parenting style and the family dynamics. Experiencing the brutality of war and the harsh conditions as a

prisoner of war could have impacted his emotional responses and coping mechanisms where strict adherence to faith was seen as a way to navigate and control life's uncertainties and traumas. The uncontrollable, yes. Yeah. And Annalise's mother, Anna, ruled the household with an overbearing, anxious, and controlling demeanor marked by deep-seated fears and neurotic tendencies. Life was a

Like her husband Joseph, Anna relied heavily on Catholicism to maintain order and control in a life that otherwise overwhelmed her. She prioritized spiritual explanations and religious interventions above all else and instilled these same values in all of her children, an approach that later would play a significant role in a horrific tragedy, which obviously I'm going to be getting to momentarily.

Growing up, Annalise was raised to say her morning prayers to St. Joseph and the Virgin Mary and their guardian angels. She regularly and fervently prayed the rosary together with her family, attended church every Sunday and often during the week as well, and honored Our Lady of Fatima on the 13th of every month. You want to hear something? I do. My dad, when I was very, very young,

got me a set of rosary beads, which I've never in my life said one rosary. It's like insane the amount of prayers it is in a row. But anyway...

Are you supposed to, sorry, like every bead is a prayer? Every bead. Are you supposed to like slide your fingers across them and keep track of where you are? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. And in the back of one of the, so it's a thing that goes up and then it branches out. So there's like a little pendant at the connection point. In the back of it was dirt from Fatima. Really? Yeah. I was obsessed with it. I mean, that's pretty cool. I was like, this dirt?

Is from Fatima or whatever. I don't even know how you say it. I'm saying it three different ways now. That's okay. She would forgive, I'm sure. Yeah. I had dirt from there. That's pretty cool. Do you still have it? No, but it's one of, for some reason, one of my most vivid childhood memories. Like me flying. These things stick with you. Exactly.

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to linkedin.com slash results to claim your credit. That's linkedin.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply.

LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. But despite being enveloped in the comfort, predictability, and routine of religion and raised in a mostly stable, financially secure environment, I mean, her mother did have her neuroses and her father was coming with a little bit of PTSD, most likely.

her childhood was pretty stable. However, she still did face significant personal struggles throughout her childhood. Annalise was often ill and seemed to have little resistance to childhood diseases. Before the age of five, she contracted mumps, measles, and scarlet fever.

Consequently, she was held back a year in school, but incredibly was still a very solid student who also excelled at singing and playing the piano and accordion. The way you just described that actually made me somewhat understand why people are drawn to religion. What do you mean? And not spirituality. Well, you said her mother, who was having a very tough time, was drawn to the routine or the directions of it. I imagine if you're someone who just can't handle life...

To have a thing to point at, to go, someone, why are you doing that? Well, it says right here. Why aren't you doing that? Well, it says in this book, I shouldn't do that. This is why I say all the time that I wish I was religious. I wish I could wrap my head around it. I wish I could like suspend my disbelief and just go with it because- Well, you're talking about two different things. Why? Why?

and religion because religion is like the rule of law. Yeah. I don't believe it has anything to do with spirituality, but for some people it must be very, very helpful. Yeah, but I think religion is also spirituality for some people. Like you make, you draw that line. Yeah. You say like you're spiritual but not religious, but I think that for many people they're both or they use it interchangeably. Yeah. You know, I don't know the semantics very well, so I'm just kind of saying in general like religion, spirituality, whatever it may be, I

I think it is so enticing. I'm so annoyed at myself that I can't get behind it. I'll tell you again. This is one of my favorite ones. The religious man goes to church and thinks about fishing, and the spiritual man goes fishing and thinks about God. Damn. I like it. Not mine. Not mine. Was it Jesus's? No. Oh. Some guy in a meeting. He was probably drunk. Jesus.

So Annalise loved school and she loved being around people at this stage in her life. And she aspired to one day become a teacher.

However, shortly after Annalise turned 16, several dramatic incidents occurred that kick-started her devastating descent into severe mental and physical distress. And at what age is this? I'm sorry. 16. Okay. I will just constantly probably have to remind you that this case took place in the 70s. Mm-hmm. Like, not 1700 or 1800. Like, the 70s. You were alive in the 70s. You know what I mean? Excuse me? Old man. Yeah.

Wow. Any opportunity I have. Well, yeah, you're small, but... Oh, my God. You're short as fuck. So... Tough. Do you know that Picasso was alive up until that point almost? Picasso, I think of like 1400s when I think of Picasso. Yeah, yeah, right. But for me, that's what this case is. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, I forget. I'm like, oh, my God, the 70s. Like, my parents were living in Brooklyn. My brother was born. They had a dog. Like...

It was here now, basically. And this chick was... Well, it just feels like another time. In hell on earth. Yeah, sadly.

So she had a couple of incidents, very dramatic, and it just led to her downward spiral at around 16 years old. So the first incident occurred at school when Annalise suddenly lost consciousness while sitting next to a friend named Marielle Louise Burduck. Now, Marielle Louise reported that it was like Annalise slipped into some kind of trance-like state in which she was totally unresponsive to the outside world, oblivious to her surroundings, and unable to engage with anyone around her.

Thankfully, on that day, Annalise quickly recovered and the girls laughed about the strange fainting spell at school and just passed it off as Annalise being overtired. She went home, she rested, and they thought that was the end of it. Yep. However...

Later that night, just past midnight, something far more serious occurred that wasn't as easy to laugh off. Because terrifyingly, Annalise awoke to the feeling of immense pressure on her belly that rendered her completely unable to move. It was like an unknown force was pinning her down to the bed, causing her to urinate all over herself as she struggled to breathe amidst full body paralysis.

She was unable to even move her tongue, which meant that she couldn't even call out for help. But then just minutes after this bizarre and petrifying ordeal began, it ended like that. And then life went on without incident for about another year until August 24th, 1969. Okay, so we're not in the 70s yet.

When Annalise experienced yet another blackout during the day, followed by full body paralysis that night, during which she was unable to move, breathe, or call out for help. That fucking sucks. Like last time, this episode only lasted a few minutes, and then she was back to feeling completely fine, as if nothing happened. There's the thing, I forget which medication I took.

But it was like when you were getting on it and when you were coming off of it, you got brain zaps. Do you know what brain zaps are? No. Dude, you're just about to fall asleep and you feel like a fucking lightning bolt get sent through your head. What? Why? What is it? Who? It was some kind of like. Was it an anti-seizure medication? No. No? No, I can't remember what it was.

It was so bad, though. I would dread going to sleep. Of course you would. Can you text your mom later? This is really weird. I want to know what it is now. Oh, you think that's why I can't throw a baseball? Listen, I'm starting to connect the dots a little bit here with you. Okay.

So this time, after this recent incident, which happened a year after the first two, Annalise saw a neurologist named Dr. Sigmund Lutti in Aschaffenburg. Now, from a neurological and psychological perspective, Dr. Lutti found no cause for concern because Annalise's EEG scan had shown normal brain activity. They can't scan for demons.

Well, I think that's their point. But for now, they are seeking a medical explanation. The doctor did, however, diagnose Annalise with grand malepilepsy based on her description of the three aforementioned incidents of blackouts slash paralysis. Oh, yeah. Now, grand malepilepsy, also known as generalized tonic-clonic seizures, is a type of seizure that involves both hemispheres of the brain simultaneously and typically results in a loss of consciousness when it occurs.

It is one of the most severe forms of epilepsy and is characterized by two main phases. The tonic phase, during which the muscles stiffen, and the clonic phase, which involves violent muscle contractions during which rhythmic jerking of the limbs and face occur. So last night I went to a fundraiser for an epilepsy organization. Really? Get out. Yeah, it was Gracie's Foundation. So this guy Steve Russo that I know from The Cigar Lounge-

His daughter has epilepsy. Is that who Dave saved? Yes. Oh, my God. Yeah. Can you just quickly tell that story? Quickly? There's a cigar lounge that I was hanging out in all the time. I was having a midlife crisis and I was smoking like three cigars a day. And he drove a motorcycle for like a second. And I got a motorcycle. And I played chess and I solved the Rubik's Cube. Two of those things are very impressive to me, by the way. I meet this guy. I won't guess which two. Steve. A.K.A. A.K.A. Steve, Father God.

Met this guy, immediately liked him. Yeah. And we would hang out like pretty much every day. So I'm talking to him about my life and he's telling me about his daughter and his family, whatever. So his daughter has epilepsy. And when last night, when the mother read the letter that she wrote to like present in front of the audience or whatever, she said that the daughter said to them when she was very young,

Mom, it's like sometimes when I'm here, I'm not there. Poor baby. So that like what you're saying, the sleep paralysis, whatever you want to call it, epileptic seizures, whatever. I can't even. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. No, I was just going to say because you didn't actually talk about how Dave saved the guy. Sorry. So I know Steve very well. I see him all the time. Dave, firefighter Dave. Obviously, we call him firefighter Dave because he's a firefighter.

He gets called to an accident where this guy, Steve, absolutely fucking demolishes his car, hitting the middle part of an overpass, like that thick-ass concrete wall. It's like the wall of a dam, basically. It's so thick and so solid. It's a brick wall. So Dave shows up there. Me and Dave go to the cigar lounge. We're sitting with Steve, and Steve is telling me about this accident that he had. And Dave is like...

Oh my God, dude, I was there. We all saw your car and we were like, guys, obviously. Didn't make it. He's obviously cut into three pieces. Terrifying. And Steve was like barely had a scratch. Like he hurt his shoulder. Incredible. So yeah, shout out to the Russo family. And Dave just showed me the picture you texted him of you in the sky. Yeah.

So Dr. Lutti chose not to prescribe anti-seizure drugs at this point, as he felt that since the three incidents had occurred far apart from one another, Annalise's condition was not persistent enough to warrant medication. Unfortunately, though, from that point on, Annalise's health in so many ways just rapidly declined even further. She suffered from a constantly sore throat, had her tonsils removed, and contracted tuberculosis, pneumonia, and pleurisy.

Do you know what that is? No. I had to look it up. It's a condition where the two large thin layers of tissue that separates your lungs from your chest wall become inflamed. Oh my God. And it's excruciating. You have severe chest pains. Yeah. Annalise stopped attending school completely, which is devastating because she loved going to school and was confined to her bed at home.

Eventually, on February 28, 1970, she was moved to a pediatric clinic in Middleburg that specialized in bronchial and lung conditions in children.

It was here that Annalise learned that she had heart and circulatory problems. As such, she was sent away to yet another facility even further away from her home where she received specialized treatment for her increasingly complex medical issues. And during her time at the pediatric clinic, she was

Annalise began devoting herself even more to prayer and contemplation. She even started telling the other children on her ward that she was considering changing her career path from working at a school as a teacher to studying catechism instead. And sadly, the other children at the hospital did not respond kindly and they called Annalise a freak.

and they bullied her for her religious devotion and single-minded focus on God. Well, doesn't she know a freak is a compliment? In our world, it sure is. Call me a freak, please. Nothing is better than when I get a text like, ready for the case today, freak?

So this social isolation that she now experienced, like tenfold, because she's in this clinic now, now even in the clinic she's socially ostracized, combined with having severe depression that was diagnosed, it just made Annalise's situation in life at this point extremely challenging. Obviously. Right. Yeah.

Then adding insult to injury amidst all the bullying and her worsening depression, Annalise blacked out again on June 3rd, 1970, followed by an experience of full body paralysis and incontinence. Witnesses reported that before she fainted, Annalise let out a blood-curdling scream as her face contorted in what looked like anger and hate.

Her hands and arms jutted out before her in rigid formation like this. Frankenstein. Exactly.

terrifying the other children who caught sight of what was happening. Can you imagine looking over and seeing that? So she had one of those episodes in public? Yeah, yeah, in the hospital. Okay. This incident activated the rumor mill, as you can imagine, at the hospital in which the other patients who were children began to spread whispers about Annalise being possessed. Yeah. Following this incident, doctors finally decided to prescribe her anti-seizure medication, specifically Dilantin,

while diagnosing her with the possibility of temporal lobe epilepsy or TLE. So TLE is a type of focal epilepsy that originates in the temporal lobes of the brain located on the sides of the brain and near the ears and are involved in processing emotions, memory, and sensory inputs such as sounds and smells. Many individuals with TLE experience auras, which are sensory disturbances that serve as a warning sign before a seizure happens.

These can include feelings of deja vu, sudden fear or anxiety, unusual smells or tastes, and crucially, hallucinations. Damn, I got all of those. You okay over there? Yeah.

By the time Annalise was discharged from the hospital and sent home on August 29th, 1970, she was a different person. She was quiet, withdrawn, depressed, quick to anger, and only really interested in having religious conversations when she engaged with others.

Annalise began having visions of bright lights and what she described as ghastly demonic faces. She also began to smell putrid scents around her like that of, and this is a quote, burning fecal matter, and she began hearing knocking sounds in her bedroom. She indicated to her doctors that the devil was in her and that she felt completely empty inside, like she was a hollow vessel for her evil occupants.

Anneliese further indicated that a fire of judgment would soon be coming down on everyone and that voices told her that she was going to be damned to hell forever. On one occasion, Anna and Joseph Michel witnessed Anneliese standing before a statue of the Blessed Virgin Mary in their home with her face contorted in hatred, with eyes black as night, piercing through the Holy Figure.

Joseph knew in his deeply religious heart that he had to do something. So he decided to take his daughter to San Damiano where she could receive spiritual healing as he believed in the miraculous powers associated with the site. Do you know about that area? Damian? Not Damian.

Damian. You-ish. San Damiano? Yeah. No. So it's a site in northern Italy reputed to be a place where miraculous healings had once occurred following reported visions of the Virgin Mary to a woman named Rosa Quattrini in the 1960s. So this is like close to their time. Yeah, yeah.

Joseph and Anna believed or hoped that by taking Anneliese there that she too would have visions of the Virgin Mary and receive divine intervention and healing. But when they arrived in San Damiano, Anneliese couldn't or wouldn't, depending on your position, enter the shrine. She indicated that the soil burned like fire beneath her feet and that the holy water smelled bad. And then, a

According to Joseph and Anna, Annalise also began speaking out in a bizarrely deep voice in a completely unfamiliar language. So other people are saying that. Her parents. Her parents. Yes. Crazy. So I'm so back and forth between this being an easily explainable physiological phenomenon and like definitely actually demons. Yeah.

So you're like, her face is contorted. And I'm like, ah, that could, you know, that could happen for any number of reasons. And then like, but what physiological reason would there be for the soil to burn your feet? Well, was it burning her feet?

In her mind, it was. Right. In her mind, it was. But this, I don't know. I know. This is the conundrum. Oh, it's not a conundrum. I'm loving it right here. Oh, good. Okay. Yeah. I love not knowing, by the way. You do? Oh, my God. I don't know how I feel. I like to know things, as you know. I don't know how I feel about not knowing. Nice. I like to know things.

You're not sure though. Even if, right, exactly. I'd like to know if I like to know. I'm confident, right guys? One of my favorite memes you ever did.

It was then that her parents decided to consult with a priest. First, they consulted with their local priest, a man named Father Herman, spelled with two Ns. That's German, baby. Yeah, it is. Yeah. Who told Annalise that she was not possessed by demons. So this is the priest. Herman said she's not possessed. Right. Okay. He said there's likely a medical explanation and encouraged them to keep going down that avenue. Okay.

Then, the Michels sought a second opinion with a supposed expert on demonic possession within the religious community. Enter Father Ernst Alt with the St. Agatha's Parish in Aschaffenburg. After meeting Anneliese Michel, Father Alt immediately determined that the 18-year-old young woman was, indeed, possessed by demons. In fact, he made this determination before even meeting her.

Because in a letter dated September 30th, 1974, Father Ault wrote to the Bishop of Würzburg, Joseph Stengel, who was essentially his superior.

stating that after learning about Anneliese Michel, like learning about her case from another priest who I believe was Father Herman, he somehow felt a connection to her. To that end, he was suddenly able to describe in full detail Anneliese's entire family, including her grandmother, having never actually met any of them. In terms of Anneliese, well, Father Alt indicated that he could sense from a distance and having never even met her, Anneliese's

an enormous radiation emanating from her neck, or more specifically, her thyroid and head. That said, he did not detect any physical illness. Then, two days after writing that letter to Bishop Stengel,

Father Herman handed Father Alt two letters, one written by Anneliese and the other written by Anneliese's mother, Anna. Suddenly, Father Alt, in receipt of these two letters, was overcome with nausea and a sense of excitement that he had never before felt, to the point where he almost fainted. Then, later that evening during Mass, he was struck by an overwhelmingly foul stench reminiscent of something burning.

He reported feeling a negative force physically surrounding him, which followed him home after mass ended. When he arrived home, Father Alt claimed his apartment smelled like actual burning shit and that he was kept... He said that? He did say that, but he probably said excrement.

And that he was kept awake by loud thumping sounds emanating from his closet. Well, that's the smell that she described too. And it's the sound she described hearing as well. Yeah, I mean... Physically, he felt cold as ice, yet his body perspired. And he was somehow able to see colors more vividly.

Additionally, he experienced two distinct visions, one of Jesus on the cross in anguish calling out for you and another of a woman with a small child surrounded by a brilliant light saying the same words for you. Oh, okay. You tank. I was half kidding. Okay. First of all, second of all, I didn't know what for you meant until you said the other person said it. And then I was like, oh, it doesn't need to make sense. Right. Okay. Right.

Oh, she's back in school. Yes, she is. So,

It's really sad because she has this like push pull kind of life where she like takes steps forward and she seems to be doing okay. And then she experiences like the full body paralysis or feeling that, you know, she's seeing things or hearing things. Yeah. And then it sets her back and then she can't continue. You know, it's like, it's sad. It's, it's, it's a back and forth with her. Yeah.

But despite moving on with her life, Annalise still suffered from severe depression, body stiffening, and visions of demonic faces. Her boyfriend, Peter Hein, took her to see a doctor named Dr. Lenner who diagnosed her with neurosis.

He attributed this to an emotionally absent father likely struggling with PTSD from his war experiences and an overbearing neurotic mother who ran a strict religious household. An EEG revealed irregular patterns in the left temporal area of Annalise's brain, leading to a change in her medication and necessitating weekly blood tests for months.

During this time, Annalise experienced excruciating headaches, mainly in her forehead, slower reflexes, constant fatigue, and she complained of paralysis on one side of her body. While the new medication, Tegretol, seemed to help, she could not escape the regular visions of demonic faces and the foul stench that seemed to follow her everywhere. Even though Annalise had been diagnosed with a seizure disorder and neurosis, she was

Father Ault believed that her true diagnosis was becoming clearer, and that was demonic possession. In his view, something was causing these conditions, very real physical symptoms that he's acknowledging, but believing that the root of those physical symptoms was something spiritual. To formally diagnose demonic possession within the framework of the Roman Catholic Church is

Several strict conditions differentiate genuine possession from mental or physical illness. According to my research, there are seven criteria for diagnosing demonic possession, which are as follows. One, demonstrating aversion to sacred objects like a crucifix, holy water, or churches. Staring at the version, Mary. Exactly. Number two, speaking, writing, and or understanding unknown languages. Okay.

Oh, pop quiz. What is the term for the phenomenon where a person can speak or write in a language that they have never learned or been exposed to? Speaking in tongues. No. Oh, shit. A. I don't know. Here are the choices. A, xenoglossy. Okay. B, linguistic transference. Okay. C, verbalia. Verbalia, linguistic transference, or...

Xenozingly? Yep. What is it? Xenoglossy? Xenoglossy? Lingual transference or verbalia. Fuck. I mean, the first one. Yeah, correct. Xenoglossy? Yep. I'm probably saying that totally wrong. Xenoglossy, maybe? How do you spell it? X-E-N-O-G-L-O-S-S-Y. Xenoglossy? Xenoglossy. Xenoglossy?

So that is the term for the phenomenon where a person can speak or write in languages that they have never learned or been exposed to. Thought it was interesting. Wanted to put it in. I agree. Okay. The third criteria for determining or diagnosing demonic possession is exhibiting superhuman strength. Four, demonstrating knowledge of events, facts, or details that the individual who's possessed could not possibly have known.

Five, experiencing a change in voice and appearance. Six, experiencing unexplained physical phenomena, such as objects moving on their own or physical marks appearing on the person's body without a known cause. And lastly, number seven, experiencing drastic changes in behavior and or personality, often including aggression, violence, or profound despair. So she's got all those. Pretty much, yeah. Right?

In terms of diagnosing demonic possession, the subject must undergo medical and psychological evaluations to rule out any physical or mental illnesses. Additionally, witness testimonies and observations by family members, clergy, and or medical professionals are to be taken into account as well. And lastly, a formal investigation is typically conducted by a trained expert

exorcist, often involving prayer, rituals, and other religious assessments. Did you know that the Vatican requires that each diocese have a specially trained priest who is able to diagnose demonic possession and perform exorcisms when necessary? It's like the priest version of knowing CPR. Gotta have somebody certified, huh, Stassel?

That is so good. Cole Ronnie, he's our demon. He's a demon guy. He knows demon stuff. Come here. Father Paul's. He's on it. Oh, pop quiz. Wow, you are just full of your own surprises today. I know, I know. Because I get so into the story and then when I see pop quiz in my script here, it gets me. Yeah. So before we continue on with the story, I just want to test you on this. Okay. How many people globally truly believe in demonic possession?

A, 14%. Okay. B, 34%. C, 54%. My God, well, we got to take into consideration. It's not just Christian people who we're talking about here. It's all kinds of different religious approaches. Smart, smart.

I'm going to go 54. Wrong. 34. Yeah. 34, which is high. It's so high. It's so high. So according to an online survey from 2020, about 34% of respondents globally believe in spirits, ghosts, and then by correlation, demonic possession. Let's do our own little survey here. Okay. Do you believe in demonic possession? I believe in demonic possession if I don't believe in God. See, I have the opposite.

I believe in God, but I don't really believe in the underside. You are so opposite. But yes, you can. It's just something supernatural. Like Emmett Fox talks about being a colorblind person in a garden, right? So you're in this garden. It's beautiful. It smells good. You like it. You know it's kind of good. But then all of a sudden having your sight restored so that you can see color is like that step of, okay, I believe this now. I'm on board with this. Nothing has changed. Right. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. There's something... So I'm not religious, and in many ways, obviously, I'm not even spiritual, but then like...

I believe it, like my grandmother. My grandmother was very religious and very spiritual. Yeah. And she used to tell me that she had ESP. Mm-hmm. And I believe I have ESP. Yeah. And I don't know. She and I used to talk. Like, it was like a regular known, like, yeah, yeah, ESP. Like, we got this. It's crazy. I was reading this reading today from Emmett Fox, talked about how thought is the only real true form of communication. And when you pass over, that's all there is. There's only thought, which means that if you have any things that you're dealing with that –

your eating feelings away or drinking feelings away or lust or greed or work or whatever, when you get to the other side and you don't have a physical body, like you can't eat the pain away. So you're just left with that gnawing void. So then you have to deal with it, which is why it's best to try and deal with those things here. Where do the thoughts go?

What do you mean? Like you said, the only thing left after you go are the thoughts. Did you say that? No. I'm sorry. I misinterpreted. Listen, I don't know what happens after you die, but I like... You know what? You know everything. I like the idea that you are still conscious, but you don't have a physical body. I guess that's my question. To... Yeah, so no, you don't have like, you don't have taste buds or... Right, but where does that consciousness go if there's no vessel? There's nobody to experience it. So I, first of all, I

I don't know if you need a vessel for consciousness to be experienced. Like you, my grandmother, my friend Mike, after they died, I felt them with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A few times, each of them. So I don't know. I don't know where it goes. No, I don't. And why do I believe that? I truly believe that they were with you.

but I don't believe in any religion. I know it's semantics, but it's just a different thing. Yeah. Like when I hear the word, oh, I go to the gym religiously, it's like, oh, you like- You go a lot. By rote, meaning it doesn't mean as much to you as someone who like actually doesn't want to go and then goes time after time after time, building that discipline muscle. It might mean something to them. If something becomes rote, you think it loses meaning? Yeah. Yeah? Okay. Okay.

57% of Americans believe in demonic possession. And the belief is significantly higher among those who attend religious services regularly. 34 globally. 57% of Americans. Really? Yeah. I know, I know. Incredibly high. But I guess it makes sense. I would imagine you're self-excluded that typically if you believe in God or whatever, then you believe in the other side of it.

I don't know. I don't know. I hope I'm not misspeaking. I'm trying to be respectful. I'm just blown away by everything religion. I mean, you are going to hell, obviously. Well, that's because I'm a godless heathen. As you pointed out, which I saw you tell somebody in a DM. And then I actually read it wrong. Yeah, I know. I read the DM wrong. I watched the whole fucking thing and I was just laughing watching you squirm in that. We got a DM from somebody who said something like,

I thought it said, Tank, I appreciate you speaking freely about God and being open and whatever. Nope. And I was like, and then Slater something. And I was like, Slater is a godless heathen. And the person was like, no, she isn't. I give her so much credit for being open about her struggle. And then I went back and read the message. And it was like, Slater, I appreciate you talking about not believing. I was like, oh, fuck. I was dying. I was packing up just watching you fix that. Yeah. I didn't fix anything. I know.

Okay, let's get back to Annalise. Her symptoms continued to escalate tremendously by 1975 and she could no longer cope with reality. Those were her words.

She suffered from violent mood swings and horrific depression to a point where her family and friends felt that she'd become unrecognizable. Annalise would violently throw things at her boyfriend, Peter, as well as her sisters, while simultaneously pleading for help to stop, which is like heartbreaking. She tore a photo of Jesus off the wall, destroyed rosaries, stopped attending mass, and indicated that she was physically unable to make it past the entrance of the church and

Her body continued to stiffen as her face contorted in grotesque ways, at times rendering her completely unable to walk, eat solid foods, drink, or speak. She tore off her clothing, compulsively performed hundreds of squats a day, ate spiders and coal. Okay, I'm going to give you a minute. Okay.

Why was she banging out squats? Because I think she had this like... All this energy to go? Yeah, I think that she was going through something, whatever you want to call that. Not you personally, but like... Yeah, yeah. Possession or something psychological or both or neither, whatever. She was going through something and had this absolute like inability to stop her body. Wow. And she's eating spiders. And coal, yes. She licked her own urine and...

bit the head off of a bird, and even hid under a table for two days barking like a dog, only coming out after she was instructed three times in the name of the Blessed Trinity to come out and sit down.

During these times, Annalise remained unresponsive and in a trance-like state, telling those around her in a deep and unrecognizable voice that her name was Judas, Hitler, and Lucifer to begin with. Oof.

Gone was the pious, devout young woman who at one time considered entering the religious life as a nun. And in her place stood a person who became obsessed with the concept of evil, demons, and the devil himself.

Father Alt began to visit with Anneliese more frequently and even began bringing another priest along with him named Father Arnold Renz for backup. Now, Father Renz was superior of the Salvatorean monastery of Rok-Shipach and lived close to Anneliese's home. Nice. Nice work. And it was clear to both priests what was happening to now 22-year-old Anneliese Michel. Torture. And crucially, what needed to be done.

As such, Father Ault wrote to his superior, Bishop Stangle, and asked for formal permission to perform an exorcism against the quote-unquote demonic molestation that had taken over Annalise Michel's existence. Permission was granted. Do you know what molesta means in Spanish, by the way? Say it again.

Just if you see like a sign that says... I just want you to say it again. Moleste? Yeah. No moleste? Like don't touch it, don't fuck with it. Yeah. It just means something so different in English. Right, it sure does.

So Father Alt and Father Renz immediately got to work by conducting a wee little exorcism, like a Slater-sized exorcism. Okay. But this hadn't proven very effective as after a short window of time, Annalise's demonic takeover symptoms had begun to flare up once again. So on September 24th, 1975, at 4 p.m., Father Alt began to conduct his very first full-blown tank-sized exorcism. So nice. So this is the first exorcism

Yeah. 67 exorcisms. Yeah. Yep. Buckle up. Wow. An altar was set up on a side table on which sat a statue of Jesus and framed pictures of the Virgin Mary, the Sacred Heart of Jesus, St. Michael the Archangel, Archangel, and Padre Pio.

Father Alt prayed and sprinkled holy water on Annalise while Father Renz made the sign of the cross above her. Annalise twitched, trembled, and basically raged out as her face twisted. She tried to bite and kick her father and boyfriend, exclaiming, put away that shit in reference to the holy water that was being sprinkled.

She grabbed this family friend of theirs named Taya Hine by her throat, and it took two men to pry her off. According to Taya, Annalise had the strength of a bear when she was possessed, which if you remember is one of the criteria for being possessed. Later, when Father Alt asked Annalise what she saw and felt and experienced, she responded, quote,

I only observed and had no influence on what was happening. I am only in the background just looking on. Now, transcripts exist from the exorcism sessions that I'm going to share a little bit with you right now. There's also a one hour and 26 minute audio recording. And I've listened. It is the scariest audio.

most haunting and disturbing thing I have ever heard. It's in German. I needed subtitles, but Annalise's voice, I mean, she was suffering. It was gruff, raspy, deep, harsh, angry, terrifying. Yeah. I mean, that element is one thing to me where I'm like,

I don't know if it could be explained physically. The voice? The voice completely changing and the, not, not just like twisting and fucking and spazzing out, but like contortioning when you're not a contortionist. Yeah. Yeah. Your face contorting, not just moving and making an expression, but like,

Yeah, becoming somebody else. Oh, my God. Sometimes Anneliese would speak as Lucifer, Judas, Cain, Hitler, Nero, and or a long-dead local priest from her area named Valentin Fleischmann. So Fleischmann was defrocked and excommunicated in 1575 for beating a man to death while drunk. Wow. And...

According to Father Alt, he was basically like, how would Annalise have any idea who this guy was to be acting out as possessed by him? Yeah. But apparently he was a little bit of like a local, not legend, because he didn't have a good reputation, but like on the flip side of that argument, like sort of everybody in that area had heard of, you know, Father Fleischman. And what did Nero do? He was like a...

I think it was a... Oh, I... Oh. You thought he was a fish? No. Finding Nero.

That's not what I was going to say, but that's so much better. You know, it's funny. I keep thinking every time you say Annalise, I'm like Annalise this, Annalise that, and then De Niro, Nero. Oh, okay. Is that what it is to have ADHD? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing, but it's very confusing. I know. It's okay. I get it.

So here's one excerpt from Annalise as Lucifer, or vice versa, or whatever you think. Lucifer as Annalise. Quote. You ready? Yeah. Picture this in like a deep, raspy, scary, harsh, angry voice. The snot nose is cursed. I will not let her free. I will not get out alone.

And we are so many inside her. The snotty slut is ours. You have to pray much more. By order of that one, they should still recite rosary or else we cannot come out. By order of that lady, people should fast. She was cursed from the beginning. She was cursed before birth. And this is coming out of Annalise's mouth. Yeah, I mean...

That's – I mean, just what – it's so crazy, obviously. So here's like – I have this theory, right? Mm-hmm. That –

Every time you, like, so rule number four or the 48 laws of power, law number four, always say less than necessary, right? Which I use a couple of different ways. But it's like, I believe this. Like, you ever have a problem and then you tell somebody about it and then you tell somebody about it again and again and again. And by the time you've told somebody, like, enough times, it's gone. Yeah. The more you talk about something, the less you feel it, the more desensitized you are to it. Or...

Does it breathe life into it and make it so much bigger and more prominent than it would have been if you just let it die out? I don't know. But my point is that before language, before the ability to even say tree or rock or whatever, I think people were on a different playing field and able to tune into different things. Like animals, like people think dogs see things or babies. Mm-hmm.

tons of documented cases where a baby is like interacting with something that's not there. Yeah. That's why babies are terrifying. They don't have the ability to speak it. So they're not, that part of them is not numb. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. Okay, that's the scariest thing that's said this entire case. That, what I just said to you was a quote from just one session. Yeah. In other sessions, Annalise or whichever demon was inside of her stated, she belongs to me. Sometimes the demon spoke in Latin, other times in German. Pop quiz. All right. Why are demons supposedly able to speak and understand all languages?

I think it is B.

Very good. Scary, but cool. Very good. Very good. Exactly. I just thought that was interesting that they can speak languages that don't even exist anymore. Yeah. If you believe. Yeah. Which is why speaking in tongues sounds ridiculous to us, but maybe it isn't.

With Annalise, each demon spoke in its own unique voice as well. So the people around her were always able to tell who was possessing her. That's fucking crazy. For example, Lucifer spoke in a majestic, intelligent way while Adolf Hitler barked like the fucking bitch he was. Yeah. Annalise was caught in a brutal cycle as Father Alt and Father Renz continued to conduct exorcisms on her over and over and over again.

And following each exorcism, Annalise would experience a brief period of immediate relief followed by even more intense and debilitating symptoms. And this went on for 10 months for a staggering grand total of 67 exorcisms between September 1975 and July 1976.

During this time, she became emaciated, losing over half her body weight and dropping to an alarming 68 pounds. According to the Roman ritual, some demons need to be starved out of the host, leading to severe malnutrition. Anneliese often cried out for food during the exorcisms, suffered from high fevers, and was frequently denied fluids. Despite her deteriorating condition, she never received medical intervention or treatment.

Only once did a doctor sit in to merely observe one of the exorcisms. Unsurprisingly, but devastatingly all the same, on July 1st, 1976, at approximately 6 a.m., the inevitable occurred. 23-year-old Annalise Michelle died. And her last words, her last words were, Mama, please stay with me. I'm afraid.

I wonder, oh my God, that must be, to be that person, her, not knowing what happens after you die, et cetera, et cetera, but to be experiencing that. Like when you said she woke up with that feeling of doom, impending doom, that happened to me once. I had that one time. It was so fast, but it was like I realized that,

not intellectually thought about or had the thought or a passing thought. I realized that I was going to die very briefly at some point. That is so scary. Oh my God. It was, it lasted like 30 seconds, but I will never forget it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an intrusive thought, right? No. Why? It was different than anything I've ever experienced. Oh, because you knew it to be true.

Because when I say realize, I mean make real. It became real in my mind for, thank God, a very short period of time. Did you think you were going to die right then and there? No, no. Just eventually. Eventually, yeah. That's very scary. At the time of her death, Annalise's face and body were covered in bruises and cuts, particularly on her wrists and ankles where she had been restrained. Additionally, listen to this, her knees were fractured from excessive kneeling during prayer.

The post-mortem examination determined her cause of death to be malnutrition and dehydration, possibly aggravated by physical exertion.

With compelling evidence of neglect and abuse, a criminal investigation, obviously, was launched. Now, the state attorney's office in Aschaffenburg took a year to gather evidence. Finally, on July 13th, 1977, Anna Michelle, Joseph Michelle, Father Ernst Alt, and Father Renz were all charged with negligent homicide. Initially, the bishop who granted permission for the exorcisms was also charged, but those charges were later dropped.

As the investigation proceeded, public interest and controversy around this case grew like

Crazy. The deeply religious nature of the Michelle family and the involvement of the Catholic Church added complexity and sensationalism of the proceedings, fueled by a widespread fascination with exorcism and possession popularized by media and film. In a disturbing turn of events, a Carmelite nun insisted that Annalise's corpse be exhumed to determine whether it had decomposed.

She argued that if the body showed no signs of decomposition, it would prove demonic possession, absolving the defendants of any wrongdoing. Incredibly, on February 25th, 1978, not 1878, 1978, with the blessing of Anna and Joseph Michel, Anneliese's body was exhumed and examined, revealing normal decomposition and dispelling the nun's supernatural claims.

By the way, I don't fault Anna and Joseph for agreeing to have her body exhumed because they truly believed that she was possessed. That's where it gets tricky. Like if you truly believe something and your form of treatment isn't great, but like your intentions were, ugh, it's tricky, but let's keep going. The media attention surrounding the trial, which began on March 30th, 1978, was overwhelming.

And we've talked about that before.

Now, the priests were represented by separate attorneys appointed by the Diocese of Würzburg, while the Michels were represented by Erich Schmidt-Leichner, a top German lawyer known for defending individuals in the Nazi war crime trials at Nuremberg.

Schmidt-Leichner's involvement added a layer of legal gravitas to the defense, highlighting the high stakes and complexity of the trial. It's like the trial of, like, the time, you know? Despite public fervor, the decision rested solely with the jurors and judges who sifted through the evidence and testimonies to deliver a verdict.

Interestingly, when Father Ault's attorney, Marianne Thora, sought expert opinions from Catholic church members on exorcism, like clergy members, she struggled to find anyone willing to testify in the court of law in defense of her client. Despite this, Father Ault maintained his belief that he had successfully cast out six demons from Annalise's body, although tragically, she died in the process.

During the trial, the prosecution argued that Annalise's tragic death resulted from a combination of symptoms relating to epilepsy, severe untreated mental health issues, and of course malnutrition and dehydration. They emphasized that the lack of medical intervention, despite the defendant's belief in her possession and that they were helping her, directly caused her death. The prosecution maintained that Annalise should have been force-fed rather than permitted to reject food.

Proper medical treatment could have alleviated her suffering and likely would have saved her. But they thought they were fasting the demons out. Right. Well, that's the thing. So the prosecution saying you should have force fed her, but the defense is saying, why? Then that wouldn't have exercised the demons. Well, maybe it didn't anyway. Well, I mean, she's six feet under, so it didn't work out great.

Interesting fact about this trial, though. This was the first time in German legal history that the prosecution had to argue against the notion of demonic possession. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. The defense employed a dual strategy here. Firstly, they argued that Anneliese Michel had truly been possessed by demons, which necessitated religious intervention.

The defendants claim to have witnessed Annalise speaking in tongues, thrashing about, and allegedly knowing things that she could not herself have known. Secondly, the defense contended that Annalise had the right to refuse medical attention, which she did 67 times over by giving verbal consent to the exorcisms and refusing food. Very reminiscent of the Lacey Fletcher case, right? That's what I was thinking about before. Yeah.

The trial lasted for three weeks, during which approximately 40 people testified, including medical experts, clergy, and various individuals who had observed Annalise's condition and the exorcism sessions. And this included the Michelle family physician, Dr. Richard Roth. Because interestingly, as I alluded to earlier, there was a doctor present at one of the exorcisms, and it was this guy. During his visit, Dr. Roth assessed Annalise's physical state.

And despite observing her distressing symptoms, there are no records indicating that he took any medical action to intervene, despite her clear malnutrition and deteriorating health. Furthermore, Dr. Roth is noted to have made a remark implying that he did not believe Annalise's symptoms were entirely due to medical reasons, which may have reinforced the family's belief in the necessity of the exorcisms.

The defense also submitted into evidence a lengthy psych evaluation of Father Alt, conducted by a neurologist named Dr. Lungershausen and a psychiatrist named Dr. Kohler. So this is really interesting. Basically, to sum up their findings, I'm going to share a short paragraph from their report. Quote, "...in the case of Father Alt, we are dealing with an abnormal personality in the wildest sense of the term."

Parts of his prehistory, as he reported them, even suggest the presence of a psychosis of the schizophrenic type, although the fingers cannot be construed as to pointing to any symptoms that could prove this diagnosis.

End quote. So remember how I mentioned earlier that Father Alt claimed to have experienced two visions prior to meeting Annalise and then he claimed to have nausea when he felt the letters that were written by Annalise and her family and he could smell things and was he hallucinating, right? So according to the defense, these were pseudo hallucinations.

Father Ault, by the way, also claimed that he was telepathic, which the defense used to further prove that he too was suffering from some kind of psychosis. Which you did earlier in the case as well. I said that earlier in the case? Well, you said you were telepathic. Oh, yeah, but I'm not. I'm not Father Ault. I'm different though. Well... It's different when I say it. Yeah. I'm not also like, you know, starving a young woman. Not yet. Not yet.

Not ever. I think, and just real quick, the X, like, so like, obviously as humans, we just want to explain everything. Yeah. Everything needs to be put in a thing and labeled and forgotten about. So before...

schizophrenia was even a word, there was another way to describe it. And maybe before that, there was another way to describe it. I don't know that any label undoes the thing that it is. Like, just because you can say, okay, that's schizophrenia. Imagine it was once called demonic possession. I'm sure it was. You know what I mean? But I'm saying, just because you change the label, it doesn't, agua, water. It's the same thing. Right. Just because you change the label, it doesn't mean it changes what it is. I think people are more likely to dismiss as,

something they're comfortable with when it's schizophrenia as diagnosed by a doctor. But you call it demonic possession, everyone loses their mind. Yeah. I don't know that those two things are that different. They might mean the same thing, just a different label. And they are exactly the same thing. Because the symptom in the person is the same. Right. You get one doctor who says this and a priest who says that.

You're right. And I say that in a little bit here. Oh. The symptoms. There you go. Oh, sick. Killing it. I have ESP too. ESPN? ESPN, the ocho. So in terms of the defense's counter argument to the prosecution's argument of coercive treatment, where they argue that Annalise should have been force fed or sanctioned in a mental health facility,

Well, as we have already kind of talked about, right, it's all very ethically gray. The defense maintained that Annalise in her lucid moments emphatically refused to be sent to a psychiatric facility.

Given the fact that she was an adult of 23 years old expressing her desire not to be force-fed or sent to a facility where she may have been forced to undergo electroshock therapy, which was popular at the time. It still is. It still is. Did you know they didn't use anesthesia until like 1970 or something like that? Yeah. Anyway, they felt that this was enough to warrant the lack of medical and psychiatric intervention. Again, very reminiscent of the Lacey Fletcher case.

Lastly, in terms of this sort of highlight reel from the trial, a man named Professor Franz Xaver Sattler, who was a theologian and expert witness called by the defense, took the stand. Despite being a defense witness, Professor Sattler indicated that Annalise was delusional, complicating the defense's argument that she was in fact possessed by demons.

And he asserted that Annalise suffered from a legitimate psychotic condition that included delusional ideas about being sinful and hallucinations involving the devil. She treated conceptualizations as reality, which led to a condition called psychogenic psychosis. Psychogenic psychosis is often triggered by severe emotional stress, trauma, or underlying psychological conditions such as severe anxiety, depression, or personality disorders.

Additionally, according to Professor Sattler, Anneliese's psychosis resulted from autosuggestion, meaning, well-intended as they may have been, the exorcisms reinforced her psychotic thoughts and significantly exacerbated her condition, causing Anneliese to internalize and amplify the beliefs that she was possessed, which in turn worsened her mental state.

Another theory that floats around about this case is that of folia de or shared psychotic disorder. And lastly, in terms of interesting theories, doctrinaire induction has been put out there as well.

And this is the process by which individuals are trained or indoctrinated to accept a set of beliefs or doctrines without question. And I think maybe that's like a little bit where my issues with religion maybe come in. This often involves a rigid and dogmatic approach where the teachings are presented as absolute truths that must be adhered to strictly.

The term can apply to various contexts, including religious, political, or ideological training, where critical thinking and questioning are discouraged in favor of complete acceptance of the prescribed doctrines. Can I tell you how I feel about that? Yeah. So I think I stand by this fully.

that not like is going to sound very dumb, but nothing existed before it existed. So the Bible did not exist before it existed. The, the writings of Eckhart Tolle did not exist before that. Everything all the way back, every prayer book thought tablet or whatever. So when it gets to you in 2024 and you just take it all and don't question anything, you

I personally think you're doing yourself and the writings a disservice by not coming to your own conclusions, at least in some way on all these topics because they had to. Yeah. The person who wrote that had to. Right. So, so do you. Right. You don't just get to adopt their philosophy and. Unless you agree with it, but at least give it thought.

adopt it because it resonates with you, not because you were told to. Right, of course. By someone else. Right. That's my problem also. Combine critical thinking with belief. So hard to think critically though. Oh, I know. I know.

Okay, pop quiz. All right. What do many sources claim was an obsession of Father Ernst Alt? A, the 1971 horror novel, The Exorcist. B, the historical accounts of the Salem witch trials and their impact on contemporary beliefs regarding possession. C, secret experiments conducted by Nazi Germany involving exorcism and mind control. Ooh. A? Yeah. Well, I kind of...

Why? That changes things. I mean, a little bit. On April 21st, 1978, Judge Bolander read the court's verdict aloud. All four defendants were found guilty of negligent homicide.

The court acknowledged that while the defendants believed, and they did, that they were helping Annalise and acting in her best interests, their failure to obtain proper medical intervention was negligent and ultimately contributed towards, if not caused, her death. Do you agree with that?

I do. Me too. Yeah. All four defendants, Anna and Joseph Michelle, Father Alt and Father Renz, were sentenced to six months in prison, which was later suspended, and three years of probation. Very lenient sentence. When I drove drunk all the time, I believed I could drive. You couldn't tell me any different. Right. But...

if there was an adverse consequence or an adverse happening as a result of that, you're held responsible. Absolutely. And her case highlights the challenging intersection between faith and medicine, which is like a hot topic, obviously, with opinions about her fate divided both at the time of her death and even today.

For skeptics, her symptoms were likely manifestations of severe mental illness such as schizophrenia, a condition with symptoms that can be mistaken for possession, as possession is explained.

The exorcisms she's underwent are seen as tragic examples of superstition overriding medical and psychiatric intervention, which should have been pursued either in place of or at the very least alongside any spiritual practices. I don't think if you truly believe, especially as her parents did,

that these exorcisms are necessary to save her life, but it cannot be in lieu of taking care of her human form. Yeah. For those with firm religious beliefs, the idea of demonic possession as a plausible cause for Annalise's suffering holds weight. The events leading up to her death were a spiritual battle, according to those who believe, and the exorcisms were not traumatic, harmful rituals, but rather compassionate religious practice aimed at providing spiritual aid. Yeah.

and her tragic death was caused by the demons who waged spiritual warfare upon her soul and ravaged her body in the process.

I believe that the takeaway here is that regardless of one's beliefs in the spiritual efficacy of exorcism, like the practices involved that we talked about, or really any practice of faith, it should never replace necessary medical care. And people in vulnerable situations, such as poor Annalise Michelle, must be safeguarded above all else. Yeah. And that's the case. Wow. I agree. Yeah. I agree with all that. Yeah. Yeah.

That's terrible. It's awful. 67 exorcisms and she basically starved to death. Yeah, that's... I mean, I can see both sides. So can I. And I'm not on either side. Yeah. I could never be. Just like you, I can't. I wish I could just fucking pick a side. I can't pick a side. No, because I see both sides. I really do. I just think at the end of the day, whatever side you're on...

there has to be medical incorporation somehow. Like you can still do the exorcisms and you can still pray and you are absolutely entitled to your beliefs that she really was possessed. And you're, you're honestly entitled to all of that and to act on it. Yeah.

but not in place of. When you, as her parents, see her starving to death. Well, she was suffering anyway. The parents must have been in agony either way. I think they also thought that her starvation was the cure to this. You know what I mean? Because part of an exorcism maybe is to starve out the demon. Well, that's a spiritual practice across all spiritualities.

So maybe I guess because I'm thinking as a parent, how do you look at your starving child and not get them food, not get them help? Well, it depends on what their most primary problem is. That's my point, right? They thought they were helping her. They thought the starvation was maybe proof. The second biggest problem. Or maybe proof that it was working, that the exorcisms were working. Yeah. Yeah, if starvation, if your number one concern is exercising demons out of your daughter's body...

You're going to make concessions on the hunger, the thirst, the comfort, all that. If that's what you believe. Yeah. Because that's where your mind is at. I'm one of those people. I believe that science and spirituality do not cancel each other out. As a matter of fact, they're so close that if you remove that thin barrier, that thin membrane between the two...

I would love to see what happens in the world if people could just take that down and let them start to intermingle. Or exist in that membrane. They're so close anyway. Right. You know? Yeah. But fascinating, really sad case, right? Yeah. Can you show us a tank titty? I do. Like full on, not just side titty, like the whole thing. Yeah, yeah, of course. Here we go. You ready to see Tank's titties? Yeah.

Yes. Okay. So certain people, do you think, two schools of thought really, people are inherently evil or they're inherently good? Great tanks titties for this case, by the way. Zero gray area. They're either really good or really evil? No, inherently. Oh, inherently. Meaning you're born one way and you have to overcome it by being a different way. Oh, I don't know. Gut reaction. Oh.

I do. I think I do think that people are born, I don't know, that's nature or nurture. I think it's a combination. Just say it. Just choose one. I don't want, I don't,

I don't think it's either. Nobody's going to hold it. You're not going to put it up. I can't just lie. I don't believe either one is strictly the right answer. It's got to be 49-51 inside you. If you had to choose, which you do, I don't have a gun to your head, but imagine I do. I need an answer right now. Which one is it? Inherently good or inherently evil? This is not even part of it. Just say one so I can move on. People are born inherently evil. Obviously, I'm dark. I'm going to say that. Okay. So, you're wrong, but...

Here's how I know. All, I feel like everyone, the original sin, which I think is very sad to do to people, to make them think that they're born bad. I know you were having a hard time. You had to pick one. I'm not holding you to it. But there's a book called The Power of Kindness by Piero Ferrucci. And his whole thesis was that, no, we are wired to be kind, benevolent, good to each other, to be helpful and whatever.

And the reason he says that is because like his thing was when an act of kindness is done, three parties benefit. The giver, the receiver, and anyone else who witnesses it, right? So if you want to know, I think if you want to know what people are wired for, look at how people respond when they see one thing versus when they see another. You see somebody...

let's say a spouse yelling at their spouse in public, like almost violently, like aggressing them, right? Yeah, hate it. You're going to feel awful. Yeah. If you see the exact opposite, you're going to feel good. Feel good chemicals are going to get released in you, which makes me think, like Piero Ferrucci does, that we are wired for...

For good and to observe good and to respond positively to it. Because you're rewarded by the good feeling. Inside. Right. Otherwise, if you saw good and you were like, fuck that, then it would be like, all right, maybe we're not wired for good. Right. Because you wouldn't want to keep it going if you got those feelings. Exactly. Every biological marker indicates that when we see good things happening or kindness or charitable or whatever...

were flooded with these feel-good chemicals. Unless you're the Grinch. Involuntarily. Even the Grinch at some point came around. At some point he did. He came around. Some people need a little bit more. Some people are maybe a little deficient in those feel-good chemicals, which is no fault of their own. It is what it is. Yeah. But I've been kind of obsessing with the fact that, like I tell my son, do bad, feel bad. Mm-hmm.

Do good, feel good. It's that simple. That's literally the only filter you ever need to think through anything of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even he gets it at 10 years old. Of course, yeah. But it's crazy how many people don't. And they think, I know you don't think this for real, but I get so sad for people who think the world is actually going to hell in a handbasket, which is like,

That phrase is from the 20s, dude. How fucking slow is it going down to hell in a handbasket? The world's going to hell in a handbasket. For the last 90 years, it's been going to hell in a handbasket? Maybe it's not. Well, I didn't say now. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's not going. Yeah.

you are because you're getting older and more grumpy and more dissatisfied with your life and more frustrated and whatever. And that's making you look at things differently. But the world itself is certainly not getting worse. There's actually empirical data to support that idea. Guy wrote a whole book about it. What the fuck was the name of it? Oh, I can't remember. Why don't you write a book on it? I'd read it.

We'll talk about that later. Okay. Great tidbit. Thank you very much. So next time you see good, just... Very apropos. Just mark how you feel in your brain.

And then next time go, all right, maybe. And also, hold on. What? I have an idea. I have a question. Yeah, go. What about people who feel good when they see bad things? That's bad. Yeah. Yeah. Like people who love gossip and they love to hear how people like got like fucked. You know what I mean? No, that does. That's so I think people, I'm sorry to, well, people confuse feeling good.

revved up with feeling good. Just because your adrenaline is going, I don't get it. Oh, okay. That's true. Yeah. I have seen that. Literally, I've seen that in front of my own eyes. Somebody going, you're never going to guess what happened. That's exact. Spill the tea. The other person was like, oh my God, what happened? He's like, I can't tell you. I can't tell you.

And then he had her hooked. Yeah, well, forget about I can't tell you. Just like, oh my God, what happened? How terrible was it? I can't wait. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Can't wait to hear. So, yeah, that's it. Very good. Thank you. Apropos of nothing. And I want to... I knew you were going to like that I said apropos. Yeah, it took me a second. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing all the effort and putting all that work. Of course. I want to encourage everybody, be sure to listen next week too. Next week's case is nuts. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Yeah. Don't wait.

Well, if you made it this far, you're a real one. Yes, thank you. We appreciate you. And we'll see you guys at the next episode. Thanks for listening. Bye.