EP35: True Crime Fanatic Gone Wild
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All right, welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia Podcast. I am your co-host, Tank Sinatra, here with my partner in true crime. Investigators later. I have a shocking development. Really? Yeah. Shocking to me or to our listeners? You might want to brace yourself. Me, okay. Are you ready? Yeah. You meditated before the podcast. In my head, I was like, she's relaxing her genitals, but she's actually just breathing. This podcast has taken over my entire life. I know. I know.

It's all in every brain cell. Everything you watch and witness and experience goes through the filter of psychopedia. Yeah, it really does. I wonder if it's like that for the listeners. I hope so. It probably is. I think it's getting to that point because when I read off some of these Patreon names, you're going to know we've infiltrated some synapse. Yes. Yeah. The shocking news development that I have to share is that I have found...

another podcast that I like. No way. Yeah. True Crime? It is True Crime-y. It's different. It's called Heart Starts Pounding. Okay. Which, have we spoken about it off air or no? Off air, we've touched upon it. I think I just saw it. I knew she was big on TikTok and, you know, it was creepy and whatever. Listen, I do want to bring it up because I like it and I'm proud to like it. And I feel like, okay, there's another podcast that I like.

but I just don't want to be abandoned by our listeners. It's like a very, very sticky situation, isn't it? I don't think they're going to leave us. It's very much, it's hosted by a girl who's, like I said, she's big on TikTok.

They're shorter episodes. And I don't know if I said this to you on air or off air, but you were sitting there one day with the glow of the computer on your face. And I said, it's almost like this is you just telling me ghost stories, but you're really good at it. Right. I remember that. That's what this podcast is like. It's like...

It's almost like having a funny friend and then going to see a stand-up comedian. You're like, oh, there's a big difference. Like if someone ever told you a ghost story when you were a kid around a campfire with a flashlight and whatever, this girl's like a total professional at it. It's very different. Is it crimity?

It's very different than what we do, but it's also very similar and good. She fucking does a great job. I am all for giving props and lifting up other people. I think this world is big enough for lots of people to do the same thing and to do it well and to share the love. I think she calls herself Lore, like L-O-R-E. I listened to an episode about true urbanization.

urban legends. Oh, like folklore. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, cool. Thanks for the suggestion. Yeah. So I would like you to listen to it. Then we'll talk about it. Yes, sir. We'll figure it out. I got homework. Yes, you have a little... Like, you don't have enough. Because I do have enough. You don't have enough homework. If it's okay with you, Psychopedia is always going to be my priority. It's always going to be my priority, too. Okay. Aside from...

Fucking semen demons over at patreon.com slash psychopedia pod. Oh, you just got so excited. Patreon.com slash psychopedia pod. Again, if you love us and you're not getting enough of what you want and you want a little bit more, but you want it a little bit different, you want it unhinged,

that's where we are. You can come find us over there. I feel like you just rapped that a little bit. Did you see me bopping my head? I did. You were feeling what I was doing. So a couple of names that I just want to read because I want to give them their propers, but also we got some fucking banger names in there today. The most special mention and shout out to CacklingBee.

Dimwit. I saw that. I was like, I've influenced someone. Oh, you've influenced a lot of people. That is exciting. Cackling Dimwit fucking came in a little while ago and I was like, yo, that's unbelievable. And for anybody new to Psychopedia, in our last episode, I referred to the perpetrators as Cackling Dimwitted Assholes. Yeah. And so this name is the play on that. Cackling Dimwitted Assholes. Yes. What's your favorite scary movie? The Scream Copycat Fuckers.

Angie Wittywhack, which if that's your real name, I'm sorry. If it's your funny name, it's very funny. It's cute either way. That's good. Bullshit Shabizness. I mean, fucking, that's a punch in the gut right there. Neom, pronounced Neve. Sick. Do you know about that name? No. Okay. It's N-I-M-A-H, pronounced Neve. I knew a guy from the gym named Neve. He was hot. He used to wear scrubs. He was ripped. Sick.

Shout out to Dick in the Grass. Terry Burke, Wollin, Naomi Albert. Dick in the Grass. That's a Lorena Bobbitt episode. Yeah. I didn't even pick up on that. Oh, my God. I'm going to just... Nevy Keys? Nevy Kins? It's Neom Hee.

Kins. Two people with the name N-I-A-M-H came in within a day of each other. Really? Yeah. It's Neve or Naomi. Sasha Oppenheimer, I hope that's a play on the movie, but I don't know if it is. Jesse Aduzzi, Satan Teresa, Unhinged Flora, Tiffany Franklin, Brittany Lee, Jeff Prime. I'm going to end on Mr. Prime because fucking prime time to stop.

Like it. Yeah. So shout out to you all and shout out to us. Shout out to you for putting in all the hard work to make this podcast what it is. I can't get the sentence out. Guys, that just took him three times. I don't even know if it came out right. I think you did a great job and I appreciate the shout out and I'm shouting you out for being the bestest,

levity bringer I have ever met in my life. Yeah. And very smart and fun to talk to as well. I agree with all that. Thank you. You're welcome. So without further ado, spooky, without further spooky season. I know.

Oh my God, happy October. Oh, fuck. You all right? It's October 1st. Fuck yeah, it is. I got to get my pumpkin head on. Listen, I get weird in October. I can't wait to see it. Yeah, if you think I've been weird, brace. Brace for impact. Her eyes just turned black. That was weird. My eyes are kind of already black, if you haven't noticed. No, the whites of your eyes turned black. Yeah.

All right. So without further ado, let's get into this week's case and see what you've got over there up your sleeve in your laptop. Let's go. I'm just along for the ride like everyone else. I'm hearing this for the first time.

Well, this is not news to you, this part. Because as you know, I constantly struggle with anxiety. It can feel like I have an internal storm that's consistently raging inside of me, even when the external skies may appear sunny and clear. And the unpredictable nature of anxiety, of course, only compounds the general feeling of unease as it lurks in the shadows, just waiting to strike at the most inopportune moments. As it does. Like when I'm driving over a bridge, right?

Right? Worst time happens every time. However, I've identified a variety of coping techniques to combat this heart pounding condition. For instance, taking walks with cash, my pit bull, has become a form of meditation for me.

Meditation has become a form of meditation. You saw me taking deep breaths before we hit record. Meditation has become a form of walking my dog. Right. Yes. Advocating for survivors of sexual abuse at my day job can shift my focus away from my own anxieties and self-consciousness and towards a more altruistic path. Even drinking a lot of water tends to help. Oh, yeah. But amidst the chaos of my emotional turmoil...

it has to be said that there remains one consistent factor that stands out above all else as a reliable source of anxiety relief. And while this may sound unexpected and strange to some, and will certainly warrant a deeper explanation, which I will of course provide, it is undeniably my truth. And I will come forth boldly and say, the most effective way for me to alleviate anxiety is to immerse myself in the world of true crime. No. No.

Really? Yeah. It's a peculiar but profoundly soothing paradox. Listening or presenting these tales of mystery and intrigue has become a refuge, a sanctuary of distraction from the otherwise relentless whispers of anxiety. In the investigation of crime, there's a strange reassurance that the chaos of the world can be dissected, analyzed, and even understood.

It's a temporary reprieve from the ceaseless worries, a moment of pause where the mind becomes consumed with unraveling mysteries rather than cannibalizing itself by feeding on its own anxieties. Now, for the sake of clarity, let me make this perfectly clear. I do not, for one second, derive any form of relief or comfort or pleasure from the actual acts of violence or from people's injuries, suffering, or death.

On the contrary, I am profoundly empathetic towards their suffering and deeply affected by the experiences that they've endured. Instead, where I find solace is in the process of dissecting cases and delving into the enlightening examination of human nature and ethics, as well as exploring the dark corners and mysterious depths of the human psyche.

The true crime genre, which is situated at the top of the list in terms of most popular podcast genres, shapes important dialogues on justice, morality, and the inexhaustible quest for understanding the enigmatic realms of criminal behavior.

The appeal of true crime for me is that it offers an unfiltered glimpse into the depraved minds of humanity's worst, while also illuminating the unwavering quest for justice undertaken by humanity's best. When approached with respect and intellectual interest versus just morbid curiosity, this genre can tap into a fundamental aspect of human nature, which is the insatiable thirst for understanding.

Colton Scrivener, who's considered an expert on the science of horror, true crime, and morbid curiosity. What's his name? Colton Scrivener? Yes, which I really, really want on my resume. Very badly. He works at the Recreational Fear Lab at Aris University in Denmark. Wow. He indicates that true crime can offer a learning component or at least the perception of one. We often feel like we're better prepared for these kinds of situations. So if a dangerous scenario were to arise...

we sense a degree of readiness and an understanding of what we should or shouldn't do. Yet, the question arises, can excessive consumption of true crime content potentially lead to a higher likelihood of committing a violent crime? Scrivener dismisses such a connection, indicating that the distinction between desensitization to graphic content on screens and in real life is evident.

Research, such as that on violent video games, indicates that exposure to such content in media doesn't lead to increased real-world violence. The same logic likely applies to true crime content, suggesting it doesn't diminish empathy for victims or increase empathy for perpetrators. However...

The media frenzy surrounding the motive behind the perpetrator's crime in today's case upholds the opposite perspective. As per the media headlines, which to be fair have been derived from the perpetrator's own statements, 23-year-old Jung Yoo Jung from South Korea committed a gruesome murder after deeply engaging with true crime material and subsequently expressing her desire to, quote, give murder a try.

Moving from observer to participant, this horrendous true crime fanatic intentionally became the gruesome main character in her own case by design and used the knowledge she obtained through hours and hours of true crime absorption as a how-to guide for brutally taking the life of an innocent young woman.

But before you take a stance one way or the other on this issue, let's get into this very recent and very gruesome case. Pause. I need to talk. I'm going to explode. You could have talked that whole time. I was actually wondering why you were so quiet, but maybe you were captivated. I was trying to be so respectful and I was captivated. Okay. And I didn't want to jump in. During that intro, I had 30,000 thoughts and I have maybe one left. You should have punctuated my intro.

The anxiety. It feels like you started that intro 70 years ago. That's how many thoughts I had in that time. Is it? I've lived an entire life. Welcome back. Like I was in a coma, maybe. Just listening to this angelic voice read off. You just made that up all on the spot, huh? Oh, yeah. That's crazy. So I want to make a suggestion as to another reason why true crime reduces anxiety. Please do. So

One time I had anxiety over, listen, first of all, anxiety is ever present in me also. If I say I had anxiety over, it's just, that's what it latched onto that day. But one time I was having anxiety about whether or not we live in a simulation. Oh, I have this anxiety all the time, which we've talked about. Yes. We've talked about this on the podcast? No, just you and I in life have talked about this. So I was having a tough time with it. Whatever it was, we were in the other house. So it had to have been like three, four, five years ago.

And I asked Jessica, I'm like, what do you think about when you wake up in the morning? And she goes, well, usually I get woken up by the younger, the baby at the time crying, waiting, you know, he needs to be fed. He needs to be changed, whatever. So I get up, I take care of him. And then I start making the lunch for the kids school. And then the older one wakes up and I make him breakfast. I get him ready, blah, blah, blah. And then I got to get the oldest one to school and drive her. And then I come back and blah, blah, blah. And

And all I could think about the whole time she was talking was that not once did she think about herself during that whole time. She was constantly focused on other people and making their lives better, easier and whatever. And she goes, why, what do you think about when you wake up in the morning? I go, whether or not we're in a simulation and it's killing me. I might actually die of over analysis at this point. I had a frame of reference for it from when we did our bodybuilding shows and

I became so sick of myself because you have to look in the mirror, pose, oil, tan, workout, diet, cardio, me, me, me, me, me, me, me. It was just too much me. I think anytime I get wrapped up in too much me, anxiety goes through the roof. So listening to a true crime podcast,

takes you out of yourself in many different ways. One, you feel for the people in the story. Two, you think about how brave they are, like with the dismembered in the desert. And you're just, you're thinking about things besides yourself and what could go wrong and what has gone wrong and what might go wrong. And you're just kind of in the moment. It's maybe for some people, it's like music. I get that for music. Yeah. But if it's written well, which...

These episodes are because you're a genius. Oh, my God. Thank you. Then it has the ability to really transport you to another place. And all of a sudden, you're not thinking about yourself. Well said, all of that. So, right. I think that the difference between somebody who's listening or watching or absorbing true crime for morbid curiosity only because they're just interested in the gruesomeness of it

And listen, there's takeaway from that too. I'm really not judging anybody, but for me, it's that sort of intellectual, respectful angle to come at true crime from where for me, you're going to take the most away from it. And that's when you're going to get transported out of your head into a bigger picture where hopefully your takeaway is something that you can learn from, like what this researcher was saying. A lot of people listen to true crime because they think it's going to prepare them in some way for what, God forbid, may happen to them, the situation they're in.

For me, it's not that. I don't think that it's preparing me. It's just the best way to look at all corners of the human psyche. Yeah. And also, this was the other thought that I was able to retain. Actually, it came back. I don't want to say I can't stand it. It just bothers me when people talk about how the world is getting worse because it is absolutely not. Tell somebody, go back in time to the 1800s or the 1200s and say,

Things are so bad in the, in America right now. Well, what do you mean? Can you, you can't walk out your house. Obviously you get attacked by people every second of every day. No, like there was a thing that happened on the, I don't even know where it was, to be honest with you. It was, you can't tell me that things are worse in 2023 for the general population. Obviously there's pockets of people who suffer more than others in different, for different reasons in different areas, but,

but as a generality, humanity gets better all the time. I hope so. I have to believe that. Yeah. Because every time you look, things are getting better. People have been saying the end is near since they were saying the end is nigh. Nobody says nigh anymore. Nigh is an old ass word. I like that. You know what has changed though? What? Kids these days.

Kids these days, my least favorite phrase of all time. Kids these days don't know what real music is.

Stop. Just enjoy your life. Just enjoy your life. Like I'm about to do right now. Learning about... Jung Yoo Jung. Jung Yoo Jung. Yeah. Wow. We're going to likely just be referring to her as Yoo Jung. And I do also know this case a little bit because I heard about somebody who watched so much true crime and then wanted to try it out, but I know nothing besides that. That's the extent of what you know. Is that correct? Yeah. Very, very glancing familiarity with it.

Jung Yoo Jung hails from the vibrant coastal city of Busan in South Korea, a locale often referred to as the Miami of South Korea. Busan boasts a wealth of attractions, including picturesque beaches, tranquil hot springs, majestic mountains, and historic temples, drawing in travelers and residents alike.

With a population of around 3.5 million inhabitants, Busan stands as South Korea's second most populated city and ranks as the world's sixth largest megaport.

Busan's reputation as a remarkably secure and safe place to live underscores the stark contrast presented by the brutal crime we are about to delve into, which garnered extensive attention. So I'm glad that you didn't learn more about it than you did. I have to hide my eyes when I scroll on the internet. Mm-hmm.

Jung Yoo Jung was born in 1999 and raised by her grandfather. Now, some sources indicate very young. Oh, my God. 1999? She's 23 years old. Oh, my God. This case just happened in May 2023. Wow. Selling a little or a lot?

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Some sources indicate that Yoo Jung's mother abandoned her when she was one, followed by her father's abandonment when she was six, while other sources indicate that her parents didn't just up and leave her, but rather focused all of their time and energy on working and sent Yoo Jung to live with her grandfather because they didn't have time for her. Regardless...

She was abandoned for one reason or another by both of her parents. Sad. Now, we know from our analysis of past cases like the Jerry Brudos case, Gary Heidnik, even David Parker Ray, the toy box killer, experiencing neglect or feeling unloved and unwanted by your parents during early childhood can undeniably leave a lasting negative impact.

And it bears repeating that abandonment is one of the few fears that children are born with innately. Very interesting. Did you know that or no? I mean, it makes sense now that you say it, but no. So when I took child psychology, I learned that babies had a fear of falling and a fear of loud noises. Born into them. They didn't need to be taught it, nothing. When I went to the abandonment workshop with Damian as a 40-year-old man...

with him, the other man, and there was 40 women in it. Wish I was a fly on the wall. So bad. I learned that abandonment is a fear that babies are born with also, and that makes the most sense out of all of them. Sure. Your environment as you grow up either eradicates it or exacerbates it. And her environment obviously made it worse because she was left without parents, literally. Yes. Worst case scenario for a developing child. Absolutely.

Now, according to the National Institute of Justice, child abuse and neglect have been shown to increase the risk of later forms of antisocial behavior, including violent perpetration and crime in adulthood. Not always, of course. That's not to say that every single child who's abandoned by his or her parents is going to turn out to be a criminal, but there definitely exists a correlation.

Sorry, have to interject. Also, I've learned in my life...

sobriety, people who are lonely turn to isolation as a cure for loneliness a lot. And it just makes it worse, obviously. That's interesting. Yeah, when you feel alone, your first instinct is to just say, everyone sucks, I'm going to fucking isolate myself, which in turn obviously makes you feel more alone. Mm-hmm.

She refused to make eye contact or to engage in conversation with others and would only respond to direct yes-no questions posed to her by teachers or any authoritative figure. Her decision to abstain from social interaction, whether voluntary or perhaps due to a potential developmental issue or difficulty in socializing,

led to her living a very, very secluded life. Former classmates frequently characterized Yu Zheng during that phase as invisible. She was not bullied, teased, intentionally targeted, or harassed. Instead, she just went entirely unnoticed. She just wasn't there. Which arguably is... The worst thing for... Yeah, I mean, I don't know that I can say it's worse than bullying, but...

It's another form of bullying in a way. Yeah. In a way. Also, she's at home with her grandfather who she probably can't relate to because there's such a huge age gap. Yes. You know? And no grandmother. Yeah. After completing high school, Yoo Jung faced difficulties in finding a job and maintained a virtually non-existent social circle during her early adulthood. She continued living in social isolation and rarely left her bedroom.

But in 2017, Yoo Jung did apply multiple times for a job working as a golf caddy. On her resume, she wrote the following. After leaving high school, I started preparing for the college entrance exam. I enjoy being active and meeting other people and I really want to try this role. Thank you. Trying to get those 10,000 steps in. Yeah. Or money. Pop quiz. Oh, cool. When she was called upon for an interview for that position as a golf caddy, what happened?

A, she put on the performance of a lifetime and was bubbly, outgoing, and highly manipulative towards the interviewer. Okay. B, she sat in total silence. C, she made an offbeat joke and told the interviewer that if she didn't get the job, she'd kill her. C. Nope. Fuck. It's just two opposites left. Okay.

I'm going to say A. No. Well, here we are. Here you are, Tank. Again. The one we know and love. Can't wait to see this on the Instagram comments. Tank's pop quiz score. Zero.

Unsurprisingly, Yoo Jung did not get the job. She sat in total silence during the interview. And when she contacted the recruiter seeking an explanation for her rejection from the job, she was not provided with the truthful reason, which was, of course, her very strange lack of engagement during the interview. Instead, she was informed that the basis for her rejection was her lack of English-speaking proficiency.

Yoo Jung also had an interest in applying for a job in the civil service. However, in order to even qualify to take the exam, to even qualify for consideration in a job in that field down the line, one needs to have college level proficiency in English, which Yoo Jung did not have. I wish you would have made one of the choices that she showed up to the interview in a tuxedo and kept calling the interview name Pam Pan. Oh, big miss. Big miss.

C, her friend that she bought farted in the office and it smelled like ketchup. He smelled like ketchup and onions. Stepbrothers, obviously, for those of you who haven't seen it, for those of you who have, you're welcome.

And so there is a speculation among certain individuals that it was during this period of time, so after high school when she was going for jobs, that Yoo Jung began to nurture resentment towards those who had achieved proficiency in the English language, right? Because this is why she was told she wasn't getting the golf caddy position. And this is why she couldn't get a job in the civil service. Yeah. So just keep this little tidbit of speculative knowledge in your back pocket.

Why? She's in South Korea, right? Yes. But they deal with a lot of English speaking guests, I guess, or what? I think yes. And I think a lot of business is just done with people who speak English. Yeah. So it's a prerequisite for most jobs and government jobs.

In terms of Yoo Jung's interests, she harbored a profound obsession with true crime, as I alluded to in the intro, dedicating a substantial amount of her time to immersing herself in content related to this captivating subject matter. Is that how she learned English? She didn't learn it well enough. I'll tell you that. Oh, I thought, because you said we were going to go back to it. I thought maybe she used True Crime Podcast to learn English. No. Okay. In the time leading up to her own perpetrated crime,

Yeah, did she listen to Psychopedia or...? I'm gonna just move on. Yeah.

It did not take long for this ardent follower of true crime to make the fateful decision to, in her own words...

Give it a try, meaning murder, thereby crossing a well-defined boundary from a mere observer to an active participant, a threshold that without question should never be crossed under any circumstance. I just want to say to our listeners, if you're even having a thought that maybe you're, because like me, I think, well, am I going to fucking maybe give it a shot?

I really truly believe whatever she had in her came before the true crime. Yep. Like she makes it sound like she kept seeing TikTok videos about pickleball and she was like, I'm going to give it a try. Well, we get into this. I know that we don't like it when I say we're going to circle back because you want to talk about it now. Oh, I love it. But we will circle back. I'm a changed man. I love it now. It's a huge part of this case. And it's a takeaway that I hope a lot of people have after listening to this episode.

It is not true crime that caused this woman to do what she did, which, again, we are getting into in a few seconds here. It's what was inside of her that caused her to do what she did. And then it's very much like the What's Your Favorite Scary Movie case that, depending on when people listen to this, aired before this episode came out. Yeah. Right? Those...

the two 16-year-olds, did not murder somebody because they liked scary movies. Yeah. There's perhaps a correlation between the two subjects, or between the two things, rather, but it's not the sole reason somebody...

Somebody does what they do. I don't even think it's part of the reason. I think the other thing comes first, always. Agreed. Yeah. But there could be a correlation. It could have influenced some of their, you know, actions. Exactly. But it's not going to create the desire. Yes. Okay. That's fucking wow. Banger. Yes. It could have influenced some of their tactics, circumstances, and approaches, but it cannot influence desire. Yes. Yeah. Right.

Regrettably, Yoo Jung not only stepped over this boundary between true crime observer to participant, but she did so in the most violent, depraved, and horrific manner imaginable. God, you know what? That's actually fucking terrifying to think of someone who has in them the desire to kill someone.

who has listened to countless true crime podcasts, watched documentaries, and makes the best of greatest hits slash worst hits of the... Yeah, I call it a how-to manual. Oh, fuck. That's absolutely gut-wrenching. Horrendous. After Yoo Jung resolved to commit her own true crime as an experiment, she then took the first step in her diabolical plan, which was to select a victim.

Pop quiz. How did Yoo Jung select her unwitting victim? A. She walked into a Seoul Metropolitan subway station and randomly made a selection, careful not to select a child. B. She lingered outside her old high school and waited for either her former P.E. teacher or English language teacher, both of whom made her life hell as a student.

C, she downloaded a tutoring app and selected a local female tutor advertising her English language services. C. Yes. Nice. Nicely done, Tank. That was a wild guess. I know. Don't give me any credit for that.

After seeing an advertisement for an online tutoring app, Yoo Jung now had a plan for selecting her victim. As such, she engaged with over 55 tutors on the app while meticulously assessing various candidates who fit the bill for her macabre plan. In the end, she opted to target a 26-year-old female whom I'll refer to as Ari since her real identity is protected under Korean law.

Ari advertised her impressive educational history and expertise in providing one-to-one English language tutoring to young learners from her home in Busan's Gwangjang District, situated approximately 20 minutes away from where Yoo Jung lived. Ari, by the way, the reason why I chose that name as a pseudonym is because it means lovely and beautiful. So let's at least think of the victim and the case in that light. Yeah.

In order to establish communication with Ari on the app, Yoo Jung assumed the identity of a mother looking for an English language tutor for her fake 14-year-old daughter. Within the app, Yoo Jung and Ari engaged in discussions concerning scheduling, the specific educational needs of Yoo Jung's fictitious middle school daughter, and notably Ari's living situation, with Yoo Jung specifically inquiring whether or not she lived alone.

The conversation concluded with the scheduling of a date and time for Yoo Jung's 14-year-old daughter, fake daughter, to meet with Ari at her home where they would conduct their first tutoring session. Pop quiz. What did Yoo Jung do next to prepare for her murderous endeavor? Okay, I'm ready. A. Stake out her victim's residence from a fruit stand across the street to get to know her daily rhythm. B.

So stake her out from the fruit stand, watch a movie, or change her appearance and pretend. Right.

See? Yes. Fucking nailing it. Oh, you are so cocky right now. This is an outlier experience, my friend. Is it? Don't I always crush it? I'm going to just have to knock you down a peg.

Jung Yoo Jung cut her hair into a perky little bob, purchased a schoolgirl uniform from a thrift shop, and disguised herself as a 14-year-old middle school student. Who is she? Barbara Skorolova? And it really wasn't a stretch for Yoo Jung to appear like a young girl given her short stature, an overall immature, unsophisticated, awkward vibe.

By the way, did you see that comment on our YouTube video? Which one? Well, you would know which one if you... You have a really weird face on right now. This is the video that we did with Mark Normand. It's our only episode on YouTube. Just type in psychopediapod. It's our only video for now. Yeah. It's cool that they got a little person to do all the research. I don't know why, but it's cool to see. Oh my fucking God.

Really? You had to read that one? Well, somebody on today's post referred to me as fun-sized. Yeah. So that was cute. I could see that. I'll take that. Yeah. It's part of our diversity, equity, and inclusion mandates. Also, I'm constantly next to you. Yeah. And you're large. Huge. So it doesn't help my plight at all. It does make it funnier though. It does. We're like yin and yang, you and I.

On May 26, 2023, at 4 p.m., CCTV footage captured Yoo Jung walking down the street in her schoolgirl uniform with a completely chill, if not upbeat, childlike air. She has not one care in the world in this footage, which is an incredibly eerie and disturbing sight to see, given what we know she ended up doing moments later. Yeah.

Then, at 5.34 p.m., under the pretense of participating in a private tutoring session as a 14-year-old girl, Yu Zheng entered Ari's apartment. Oh no, she went to her place? Yep. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Whether you love true crime or comedy, celebrity interviews or news, you call the shots on what's in your podcast queue. And guess what? Now you can call them on your auto insurance too, with the Name Your Price tool from Progressive.

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So whether you're playing a game at home or attending one live,

You can do more without spending more. Learn how to save at Cox.com slash internet. Cox internet is connected to the premises via coaxial cable. Cox mobile runs on the network with unbeatable 5G reliability as measured by UCLA LLC in the U.S. to age 2023. Results may vary, not an endorsement of the restrictions apply. Once inside the home, Yoo Jung almost immediately removed a knife that she had brought with her and proceeded to stab 26-year-old Ari 110 times.

Oh my God. Mostly in her neck and chest. Fucking horrible. Hopefully she just died quick. I hope so. Yeah. Ari's autopsy would later reveal that she was stabbed over 20 times in one specific part of her neck, indicating to investigators that Yoo Jung likely researched the precise area to target to guarantee death, which again, I hope means if nothing else, it went fast. Yeah.

After ruthlessly taking Ari's life, Jung Yoo Jung then changed into clean clothing that belonged to the victim and left the apartment.

CCTV footage of this exact time reveals a very relaxed, totally unpanicked stricken woman, Yoo Jung, walking along the street wearing a fresh knee-length coat, flat shoes and glasses, completely innocuous looking, completely ordinary appearing, a vicious, violent wolf in sheep's clothing. It's like a fucking They Walk Among Us type of thing. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Now, let's take a moment to discuss the crime itself and the mind-blowing fact that Yoo Jung stabbed the victim 110 times. This is quite literally the definition of overkill. In the field of forensic medicine, overkill is a specific type of homicide where the number of inflicted injuries greatly surpasses the number of fatal ones. Oh, it's an actual term? It is. Wow.

One possible reason for Jung Yoo Jung to have stabbed her victim so many times was for her to establish absolute control and dominance. Yoo Jung's life was far from thriving, and she may have harbored the belief that the responsibility for her struggles lie with others. She remained jobless because others had determined that she didn't meet the criteria, and her lack of friends could have been attributed to the decisions made by others who chose not to socialize with her.

During the moments in which she wielded her knife, she was perhaps for the first time in control. So that's just one sort of psychological analysis. While I'm not a mental health professional, I believe that it's plausible that she might have exhibited a particular paraphilic inclination, one that I've referenced in previous cases, though not explicitly by name. Your vocabulary is sick.

Thanks, man. Paraphilic inclination. This paraphilia pertains to an expression of sadism characterized by a sexual fixation on piercing another individual's skin. We talked about that in the Israel Keys case. Very good. But I don't think I gave you the name of the paraphilia and I'm going to give you a pop quiz now. Oh, stabophilia. What is the official name of this paraphilia?

Say them all one more time. Really? Yes. I'll have the guacamole. Okay.

I'll start with the guacamole. I'll finish with the mesconoglia. I have no fucking idea. And metophilia. No. Do you want to know what that is? Kinda. It's also known as a Roman shower. It's the sexual arousal from vomiting, being vomited on or watching others vomit. Oh, gross. Picarism? Yes.

The other one. What's the other one? Yeah. The other one, masclagnia, sexual attraction to armpits. Mesopotamia? Yeah, cool. That's a nice one too. So picarism is sexual arousal from the piercing of someone else's flesh.

Identifying picarism in a case in which a victim displays overkill injuries, such as this case, is difficult, as the crime scene will immediately suggest anger rather than a sexual motivation. Now, I am not suggesting that Yoo Jung had a definitive sexual motivation behind killing Ari, but it is possible, and so I wanted to present the information for consideration. Just food for thought. Okay.

So let's continue to discuss what happened after Yoo Jung viciously stabbed poor Ari before changing into her clothing, into Ari's clothing, and leaving the apartment. I mentioned that Yoo Jung was captured on CCTV footage looking cool as a cucumber directly following this horrific act.

Now, you might be wondering where she was heading with her zero fucks given air about her as she strut around town. Well, after plunging her knife into an innocent woman's head and neck and chest 110 times, Yu Zheng needed materials to wipe the scene and get rid of any evidence. She didn't bring any? Nope. Thus, she decided to nonchalantly walk to a nearby supermarket to purchase garbage bags and bleach.

Then she went back to her own apartment to retrieve a suitcase. Later, her bizarrely calm behavior would be analyzed by professionals who would indicate how alarming and indicative it was for Yoo Jung to have not exhibited one ounce of panic or unease in that CCTV footage. Wow. Following the completion of running her grim set of errands, Yoo Jung returned to Ari's residence where she proceeded to dismember Ari's body piece by piece.

by piece. Grim set of errands. It's like going Halloween shopping. Yeah. She also decapitated Ari and damaged many parts of the victim's remains to avoid the possibility of her fingerprints showing up should the remains ever be discovered. Could have just not killed her, but... Yeah, try that. Try that one on for size. Then, Jung Yoo Jung stuffed the dismembered body parts into the suitcase that she retrieved from her apartment moments before and

wields the suitcase off the premises while disposing of other body parts in three garbage bags into a nearby dumpster. Yeah. I mean, this has nothing to do with her listening to true crime. No, it doesn't. But the media frenzy and the way it's presented, particularly in like South Korea publications, is 100% this was a true crime fanatic gone wild.

Basically. Yeah. That might have to be the name of this episode. True crime fanatic gone wild. Done. Put it in quotes. From this point forward, Jung Yoo Jung attempted to make this gruesome homicide look as if it was a voluntary disappearance on behalf of the victim. She collected Ari's personal items, such as her cell phone wallet and ID card, in an effort to support this fictional version of events.

Now, the problem with being a degenerate criminal is that you tend to take one step forward and three steps back. So while Jung Yoo Jung believed she had sufficiently covered her tracks enough to create the illusion of the victim's self-disappearance, she had not considered the repercussions of involving an additional unwitting accomplice in the body disposal, which was a cab driver. Oh. So listen to this. Ugh.

After Yoo Jung emptied the body parts out of her suitcase and into a grassy area where she had a cab driver take her to, she returned back to the drop-off site where the same cab driver still remained smoking a cigarette.

And he noticed the once heavy-looking full suitcase was now being swung about all willy-nilly like by Yoo Jung, clearly empty. So 20 minutes prior, this cab driver takes Jung Yoo Jung and her very heavy suitcase to a grassy wooded area. Yeah. 20 minutes later, she emerges from this forest with a now empty suitcase.

At around 3 a.m. on Monday, May 27th, 2023, the cab driver, to his credit, notified the Busan Metropolitan Police Agency about a young woman wearing a hat and wheeling a now-empty suitcase after emerging from the woods. You're a fucking idiot. I mean, this is what I'm saying, though. Criminals are typically not...

Yeah. They think they are, though. And again, we're talking media, right? We're talking like Hollywood loves to make perpetrators out to be these like evil geniuses. Yeah. That is almost never the case. Listen, intelligence is not about what you know. We've said it's about your ability to figure things out. And if you can't figure out how to manage your emotions enough to not kill people, you can't be that smart. Is there a difference, though, between like evilness

EQ and IQ? Oh yeah, for sure. But intelligence as an underlying foundation of somebody's problem-solving ability, whether it's with math or interpersonal relationships...

Some of it goes into EQ, some of it goes into technical stuff. But yeah, I mean, these people are just the dumbest of the dumb. Yeah. Law enforcement arrived at this wooded drop-off location where the taxi driver had taken Yoo Jung. And of course, upon arrival, they discovered a copious amount of blood at the scene, as well as garbage bags filled with bloody clothing and unspecified body parts of a dismembered human being. Psychopaths.

Side note, do you ever worry that the people we talk about on this podcast are going to find us and kill us? I swear to God, I had that thought. No, but it's so interesting you say that. You're so dialed in, you don't even realize it. So I just want to, I'll mention this. I'm like, maybe I shouldn't be calling her dumb. I don't know. The cab driver in this case was later, and again, this is all very recently, but after all of this went down,

offered an award by the police department for his heroic endeavor, right? He had the wherewithal to see that something looked wrong. And then he did what most people wouldn't do, which is to take the next step

Yeah. And call the cops. Yep. So they tried to issue him an award. Not only did he decline the award, he quit his job as a cab driver and he's gone into like hiding. Yeah. Why? Because he's afraid that if for whatever reason he should ever come across Yoo Jung Yoo again. Yeah. He doesn't want her to kill him. Yeah. So it's just interesting what you're saying. Do you ever worry that these people are going to come back? Man, I don't worry about shit. I'll fucking kill these people. Come on, bring it. I might look small. Yeah.

But, you know, I pack a punch. She'd be small, but she'd be fierce. Additionally, one of the police officers found Ari's ID card at the scene as well, leading investigators to the victim's apartment where they found the rest of her decapitated body. Oh, my God. So she didn't even bring the whole body? No, and she also threw some of the parts out in a dumpster.

There's also a ton of blood at the apartment. Yeah. I have to slap you with a pop quiz. Okay. It feels like a funny time for some reason, but here we are. Yeah. Prior to addressing the scattered remains, ID card, and clothing, what did Yoo Jung say to arresting officers as being the cause of all the blood that they found at the scene in the wooded area? I can't wait to hear this. A, that the blood was her own and a result of her menstrual cycle. Wow. B...

That when she got into the cab, the bloody suitcase was already there and the driver forced her to get rid of it in the woods. Right. C, that the cab driver hit a black drongo, which is a bird, and it basically exploded all over the place. B. No. Cool. A. Yes. Nice. Yes. She initially asserted that the blood belonged to her and was due to her menstrual cycle.

However, when officers began finding body parts, she changed her story, stating that she had recently given birth and that the human remains they found in the woods had in fact belonged to the baby that she wasn't prepared to mother, so decided to kill instead. Yeah, I was pregnant for 400 weeks. That totally adult-looking body part is a fetus, is a baby. I mean, it's absurd, right?

Dumb. Clearly, these claims were absurd. But Yoo Jung was taken to the hospital anyway where it had been conclusively determined that she was neither menstruating nor in postpartum condition and that the blood belonged to somebody else entirely. They determined that was a lie. That's right. Needless to say, on May 27, 2023 at 6 a.m., Jung Yoo Jung was arrested and charged with murder, damaging a body, and body abandonment.

At this point in the case, Busan law enforcement released Yoo Jung's full name, age, and photograph to the public as part of a disclosure policy in South Korea to release information pertaining to a potentially dangerous suspect, even though they had already arrested her. This is where I get a little hung up.

So while South Korea typically protects the privacy of both victims and offenders as part of a law that was created in 1991, they can and do make exceptions for extremely violent offenders under the country's special act on punishment of specific violent crimes. And the reason why waiving an offender's right to privacy is allowed is for the prevention effect as well as to address public interest.

Now, experts who support divulging identities of offenders say that it helps the public better identify the person and prevents crime and may help the discovery of unknown crimes as well as hidden victims or witnesses who can then report to the police that they know something after recognizing the face. On the flip side, people who are against exposing the identity of offenders argue that publicly identifying an individual as a criminal suspect runs counter to the presumption of innocence.

leading many people in the community to assume that a person is actually guilty of the offense before they're actually proven guilty. And, you know, as Warren Buffett has said, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. Well, yeah, the court of public opinion is a kangaroo court at best. Yeah. So I understand why they might do that. But also there's got to be a happy medium between what we do here in America, where we make criminals stars and

and shielding their identity completely so that nobody even knows that crime is happening. Right. I just think it's interesting that they say it's like the prevention effect and that they do it to prevent crimes. And I'm not sure, maybe they feel it's a deterrent for

criminals who may not want to be splashed all over the news. Like maybe they won't commit a crime if they're trying to avoid that type of attention. But typically part of the reason why they do it is for the attention. That's in America. In South Korea, I think the culture is very different. It's very honor focused and people, their reputation is very important. In America, they don't care if they're known for something good or bad. They just want to be known. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe that's it.

Upon her apprehension, Yoo Jung made efforts to persuade the police that the crime had been unintentional and had actually arisen after a verbal dispute between the victim and herself. Yeah, so I stabbed her 110 times. Right.

When that excuse wasn't working, she changed her narrative and instead indicated that she was told by a stranger to steal the identity of a woman that they had murdered and that if she didn't comply, she would be murdered next. Eventually, however, after being persuaded by her grandfather to reveal the truth of the situation, Yu Zheng not only confessed to committing the murder but also divulged what some believe to have been the true intention behind her crime—

which was morbid curiosity fueled by her interest in true crime and her desire, as I said, to give it a try. And there's plenty of people in that camp who really believe that that's why she committed murder, to try out what she was obsessed with watching. There's a lot of very simple people out there. True that.

As indicated by a police spokesperson, Jung was found to have premeditated the crime driven by a desire to kill someone after she became obsessed with murder from TV programs and books. Well, yeah, she also fucking made a profile, hired the person, interviewed 55 people. Mm-hmm. It was, intention is inherent in all of that.

So some people still believe that. They hold on to that as being her motive. A lot of people believe that Yoo Jung's motive for killing Ari had actually been to steal her identity. She was jealous of Ari's success, her life, and notably her proficiency in speaking English. It wasn't necessarily Ari, whom she'd never met before, but it was what Ari represented. Did she want it to become her? This is one theory, so hear me out.

Yoo Jung wanting to steal Ari's identity was perhaps the reason why she went onto a tutoring app in the first place to find a victim who spoke English.

and to punish them for possessing a skill set that she lacked and for which she was constantly being punished. That makes sense. In terms of wanting to steal Ari's identity, though, circling back to that, some sources assert that this is why Yoo Jung changed into Ari's clothing following her murder. I don't think so. I think she just couldn't walk outside in blood-drenched clothing when she needed to get the suitcase, garbage bags, and bleach. Yeah.

You see, the victim, Ari, led a life that stood in stark contrast to Jung Yoo Jung's. Ari's existence had been characterized by professional success, a solid social circle, financial stability, and a promising future.

To say nothing of the fact that Yoo Jung's favorite movie, one that she reportedly watched incessantly leading up to the murder, was a film, as I mentioned earlier, called Hwacha, which means helpless. It's a Korean psychological thriller that revolves around one woman who kills another woman to assume her identity and to live out her life. Well, what did she go on one fucking job interview and then just decide to kill somebody who she was jealous of? Yeah, it's...

Well, it was the job interview. She went on the golf caddy job interview a few times, apparently. Okay. And it was the civil service profession, that whole field she was blocked from because of her lack of speaking English. Do you know how many jobs I did not get hired for in my lifetime? Did it make you want to go kill people, Tank? No, it made me want to go develop a skill that I could get hired with. You mean you're healthy in the mind? I mean, if she put half that effort into learning English, she'd be dominating. Mm-hmm.

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Now, according to digital forensic analysis, Jung Yoo Jung had been conducting research on homicide-related topics as early as February 2023, which was a full three months prior to committing the actual crime. Upon scrutinizing her cell phone, investigators uncovered her online searches, which included phrases like, how to conceal a body, and homicide without a body, which I think means...

can you be convicted of homicide if there's no body? Yeah. Like, no body, no crime type thing. Yep. Additionally, the prosecutors who indicted Jung Yoo Jung have also indicated that she called her father after she was arrested to confess to him that her real intention had been to kill him, which was actually supported by related search terms like patricide that appeared in her browser history. Patricide means the killing of one's father. Yeah, well, she meant to kill him, but she killed an innocent victim instead? After...

Essentially interviewing 55 other tutors to identify who the best victim would be. That's quite a mistake. Yeah. Quite a misstep there. The location of where Yu Zheng scattered Ari's remains also suggests that she'd done her research in advance, as that area had tall grass filled with certain types of insects and pesticide that would have likely sped up the decomposition process. Oh, wow.

On June 2nd, 2023, at 9 a.m., as Yoo Jung exited the police detention center where she was being held in solitary confinement and was on her way to face prosecution, journalists questioned her as to why she committed such a heinous crime. Wearing a bucket hat to cover her face, as well as a mask, glasses, and sleeves over her handcuffs, Jung Yoo Jung responded in a childlike voice by saying...

You tell me, Tank. Pop quiz. Oh, God. A. I'm going to get inside the mind of a maniac right now? Shouldn't be that hard. Oh. A. I guess I was out of my mind. B. I'm not invisible anymore, am I? C. My name is not Yu-Jung. It's Ari. D. Canadians don't count. You are so unhinged.

Um, I was out of my mind. I guess I'm not invisible, am I? Or whatever. And then C was what? My name is not Yu-Jung, it's Ari. Oh, fuck. Um, B. I'm not, nope. Oh, God. I have to get inside the mind of another maniac, you, and try and figure out which ones of these are real and fake.

See, my name is not you, John Guattari. Nope. Welcome back. Fine. Fuck. A. In a childlike, sugary sweet voice into the microphones when she was asked why she did what she did, she said... Say it like she said it. I guess I was out of my mind. I guess I was out of my mind. I think I actually sounded creepier than you somehow. Yeah, you did. Yeah.

I guess I was out of my mind, is what she said, and expressed remorse for her actions while apologizing to the victim's family. She also indicated that she would remain diligent during police interrogation. Yoo Jung's grandfather also apologized to Ari's family and expressed remorse for having raised a homicidal granddaughter. Wow, I hope that guy doesn't take any responsibility. Well, he does. He said, and I quote...

I raised my granddaughter wrong. I am extremely sorry to the bereaved family. I did not imagine anything like this to happen. Now, regarding Yoo Jung's statement to the press, where she explicitly said, I must have been out of my mind, some speculate that she may have been strategically laying the groundwork for her defense, invoking what's known as the Shim Shin Myok Law. Now, Shim Shin pertains to both body and mind, while Myok denotes being unwell.

So it translates to mean mental weakness or psychological fragility. Oh, or like reason... Exactly. ...for insanity. Exactly. The Shimshin-Miok Law is a component of Article 10 in South Korea's criminal law, and it stipulates that mentally impaired individuals should receive reduced punishment since they cannot be held mentally responsible for a crime. And as you said, it's an insanity defense. I'm going to do that next time me and Jessica get into a fight. I'm going to go Shimshin-Miok. Try it and let me know how it goes. Yeah, I'm not... I can't wait. I can't wait.

I'm not in a good mood. To that end, on June 6th, reports revealed the results of a psychopathy test administered to Yu Zhang after her arrest. The test was based on the original hair psychopathy checklist, which comprises 22 items assessing personality traits and observable behaviors to determine psychopathic tendencies.

It's typically conducted through a semi-structured interview in addition to the review of ancillary information as well. So it's not solely based on that checklist. During the initial police investigation, Yoo Jung's psychopathy index scored 28 points, surpassing the 27 points associated with notorious Korean serial killer Kang Ho Soon, though it slightly decreased to 26.3 points during subsequent testing. That serial killer, by the way, I believe kidnapped and murdered eight

eight women and Yoo Jung Yoo scored higher. Wow.

I got that quarter. Yeah, well, another great point you bring up, which I'm going to touch upon. I am so smart. You are. You really are. I know you're saying it jokingly. I am not saying it jokingly. I am screwed in. To put scores into context, an individual with no criminal background will generally score around five. And many non-psychopathic criminals score around 22, the 22 range. See, five. Oh my God. Watch me become obsessed with the number five.

So meaning, according to the checklist, which is the standard screening test for potential psychopaths, Yoo Jung Yoo does indeed display characteristics associated with psychopathy. Yeah, obviously. The prosecution contends that these displayed psychopathic traits in Yoo Jung likely played a role in her criminal actions.

They assert that she harnessed her repressed anger, possibly rooted in her challenging upbringing, familial discord, and unmet educational and employment aspirations to deliberately plagiarize

plan, and execute the crime. It's important to note that psychopathy differs from psychosis. Psychotic individuals may not comprehend the wrongfulness of their actions and can plead insanity. In contrast, psychopaths understand their actions are wrong and unlawful, but they do it anyway. They don't care. Thus precluding the insanity defense, correct? Yeah.

Yu Zhang is presently incarcerated. And she's also said to be thriving, by the way. In jail? In jail. What, is she sewing sweaters? No, but she's eating very well. She's sleeping very well. And I think she keeps to herself, is my understanding. And people are leaving her alone. And she's just said to be doing very well in prison for whatever that's worth. She probably likes, and if I had to take a wild guess here, although most people would not like this,

but she probably likes the security that prison brings. She's got housing, she's got food, she's got a shower, water, basic needs taken care of. It's not the ideal life, obviously, but for her, maybe it makes her feel like she's being taken care of. Yeah, and the pressure of having to be at a job

socializing with other people, to present yourself in a way that people are not totally turned off to, enough to make a paycheck, enough to pay your rent, you know. Yeah. She didn't want to be bothered with that, perhaps. So maybe that's why jail is offering her something that she's just jiving with.

Experts also say that she likely would have continued killing had she not been caught. She's thriving and jiving in jail. Yes, she is. Now, I wish I knew more about Ari, the victim, so that we could give her the honor and remembrance that she deserves. But as I mentioned, South Korean law protects her identity and her background and her family. So I'm glad for that. I'm glad that her family is being protected during this absolutely atrociously heartbreaking time. But I wish...

I wish we knew a little bit about her because I like to honor the victims, as you know. And it was such a tragic, brutal way for this 26-year-old young woman with her whole life ahead of her. She was educated. She was putting in the work to get where she wanted to go in life. Yeah. And to have that taken away in the way in which Yoo Jung did it is...

is really tragic. I was just thinking, I do feel bad that Yoo Jung was abandoned by her parents and didn't thrive in life and whatever. I definitely feel worse that this girl Ari was killed as a result of this person's inability to assimilate into society and culture, obviously. I agree with you 100%, and I think it's possible. How do we know Ari didn't have major fucking problems growing up? I mean, yes. It's...

This is why it can't typically be one thing that you can hang your hat on and say is the reason somebody did what they did. You can't say it's just her upbringing because to your point, what if Ari had a similar upbringing? She didn't go out and kill someone. No, I mean just what if she had an upbringing and then she wound up being killed? Like what if she had a tough childhood and then she winds up being killed? Like why does you having a tough upbringing does not excuse you from having to develop as an adult and grow up? No, not at all. But I also don't think that it would be the only reason

or the only thing that we would look at. No way. And we say this all the time. You can feel for these perpetrators for what they went through as children to the extent that it helped to

change their wiring, you know, to the extent that it damaged them. You can feel for that child that was hurt and abandoned and abused and neglected. Maybe things were really bad at home with the grandfather too. Who knows? Maybe he raised her and like fucking just treated her horrifically. My understanding from my research is he did not treat her horrifically. Yeah. But he also was a single grandfather raising a young woman who was abandoned by her parents and did not have friends and did not have

Any other distractions, she rarely left their shared home. Yeah. That's... It's a tough situation for him. Yeah, it's a tough situation. Yeah. That's the case. It's very, very recent. So if there's anything else that comes out or develops in the way of any information about Ari or a little bit more in terms of a definitive motive, I will definitely bring everybody back into this case and share the information. But for now, this is what's available. Okay.

And I hope that you, I don't want to say enjoyed it. That never feels right to say, but I hope that you found it interesting. Do we know what podcast she was listening to or were they like Korean podcasts? I just know that the cover art was sick. It had this like skull and it was pink and green. I'm just curious if she was... I don't know. I do know that she watched that movie over and over and over again.

But that wasn't a true crime movie. That was a psychological thriller. Well, I just want to not make sure because I can't make sure, but I just hope that anybody who created something that this woman ingested and then the media made it seem like that was the reason, I hope they don't feel like they have any responsibility in it. I think if people understand criminality, hopefully they will be able to parse that out, separate themselves. Hypothetical. What if somebody killed somebody? God forbid.

And they said, all I did for the last six months was listen to Psychopedia. Yeah, no, that's not it. You wouldn't take any responsibility? Oh, um... No, you wouldn't feel bad, I mean. Of course I would feel bad. I think I would feel bad, but it would be misdirected. I would feel bad because I...

I would feel awful that in any way, even if that person is wrong in assigning blame to us, because really there's a hundred other things going on with that person. Yeah. To have even been on that person's radar would destroy me a hundred percent. I...

again, I'm nothing if not empathetic and I take responsibility to the extent where I should. Yeah. So if it was somehow proven that there was a cause, then of course, but I don't believe that to be the case. It's like video games and horror movies and all of these things exist and it does not create these violent people. It's very easy to say when you're not in the situation that

I just want to say, like, there was a girl that I knew that something happened with a guy at work where the guy at work, like, wasn't doing what he was supposed to do. And she went to the boss and she had a reason to. It wasn't, she wasn't just like being a rat. And then the guy wound up killing himself that weekend. And she was devastated. I was like,

You had nothing to do with it. But if I was her, I might feel differently. Even though your brain is telling you it's not your fault. You had nothing to do with it. There was other things at work. I just hope that anybody like the creator of Hawatcha doesn't feel like, you know, any responsibility or guilt. Well, I don't think it's wrong for them to feel responsible.

but I don't think that they should take the responsibility, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking life is hard in motion. It's so hard. Motions are tough. Yeah. I hope what people take out of true crime is what we said in the intro, which is just a fascinating exploration of human nature. It is not a how-to manual. It should not serve as inspiration.

I would love to say that it should serve as the opposite for you to want to speak justice, help be on the opposite side of things, help people with psychological issues and mental health issues. Let's be like proactive instead of reactive as a community. Yeah. I like that. I think that's a good place to end. Okay. Well, I hope y'all enjoyed it again. I hope you didn't enjoy it. I hope you found it interesting. And I hope that you took solace in investigator Slater's creative genius and

Thank you, Dave. She needed that. Thank you. I'm not insecure sometimes. I'm not insecure, am I? I was just going to make fun of you. I'm secure, right? I'm confident, right, guys? Yeah, you remember that? Of course I remember that. Oh my God, you got a good memory.

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