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Get your quote today at Progressive.com to join the over 28 million drivers who trust Progressive. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. All right. Welcome back to another episode of the Psychopedia podcast. I am your co-host, Hank Sinatra, here with my co-host. Investigators later. Does your back hurt? No. Why? From carrying the entire weight of this podcast? I'm being serious.
Wow. It's like a weird podcasting pickup line. Does your back hurt? No. Bye. See you later. It doesn't hurt because I share it with you. True. I just feel like I'm not doing any of the heavy lifting, but it's okay. That's my own. You're used to lifting heavy things, aren't you? You're right. Muscle man. That's true.
Well, this is part two of the Lucy Letby case. Nightmare nurse from hell, if that's what we're calling it. I don't know. We'll see. You didn't... Her face, which she has no control over, indicated that she didn't like it. Women have no control over their facial expressions. Just this woman. Yeah. No, my wife, too. She doesn't have... Yeah. She'll make the most wild face you could possibly imagine, and I'll go, what? And she goes...
Nothing. You said that to me the other day. Yeah, when we were in the Hamptons. Yeah. Yeah, you guys both. What was that face? I was like, what face? You guys both do it. Well, I don't know if it's a woman thing or you just make us not be able to hold back our eye rolls. I'm slowly realizing I may be the problem as I... It's a tough realization. It is. It's not good. Sure.
So, yeah, we're going to get into, I think, what I hope is a lighter aspect of this case because part one was, like, really tough. And I actually, it was so heavy. This is a two-parter. We took a few-day break in between because it was, like, that much. And I just hope this...
I hope that, because I'll be honest, sometimes when we're introing the case and I'm, you know, we're getting into it and warming up, I forget what we're about to be talking about. And I listened to this interview and,
Can't remember the exact details. I don't remember the guy's name. But he was one of the people who was involved with, like, rescuing children who were being trafficked. And this guy's tone was just way off. He seemed, like, gassed up and giddy and excited that he got to save children. I just hope that I...
and you, I know, I don't think you did. I feel like it was more me. Don't come across as flippant, especially when we're talking like this case just feels a little, just, it hurts a little more to talk about because there's so many kids, helpless, vulnerable children involved. And this woman was so evil. So if you listen to part one and,
And you felt like it was a little bit flippant at times. I don't even know if that's the case. You may be listening to this after listening to part one and be like, I didn't pick up on that at all. I didn't pick up on that at all. Okay. If you're concerned about you. I don't even know if I would have had this thought had I not listened to that interview. That interview with that guy made me so...
Right.
the babies, but I don't know. Just, I want to say that to kind of... Yes. Well, I think you have a difficult role in this podcast, to be honest, because you have to sort of walk this tightrope of bringing the levity without bringing any disrespect. I think you do a phenomenal job of that. I happen to know you well enough to know that you would never be disrespectful. You are the most empathetic,
in-tune, honest person I know. You speak about your personal issues openly all the time, your battle with sobriety and mental health issues yourself. So I know where you're coming from. I also know that you use humor as a coping mechanism for when you're feeling uncomfortable and scared and having anxiety. So
For me, if I ever, you know, hear that lightheartedness, if you will, in response to anything that I'm delivering, I know where it's coming from. Well, now my back hurts. Yeah, I'm saying. I do have a tough job on that. Yeah, give yourself more credit. I never picked that up for me. I couldn't do this with somebody who I felt didn't give it the respect it deserves. Yeah. All right, good. I just wanted to get that out there. And I know that the part of the case we're getting into today is,
I think you said like some of the case file. I don't even know the words. I'm not a lawyer. You're the lawyer. We're going to get into the legal, the trial, all that kind of stuff, which is very interesting. Yeah. So if you haven't listened to part one, I strongly recommend that you do. I'll give you a little CliffsNotes version of part one to our listeners, but this is in no way a replacement of what you would be getting if you go back and listen to part one because part one is a little bit more of a
Part one really lays the foundation for today's part two. Part one was sadly just an account of what happened to so many innocent babies and of course their families. And it was difficult to discuss and it was difficult to research. This part two is going to get into the psychology a little bit of the perpetrator, Lucy Letby, possible motives, and,
A little bit about the trial. It's just going to have a different tone than part one. All right, good. And if you want to hear what I sound like when I just have no governor at all, head on over to patreon.com slash psychopedia where we do unhinged episodes, which we're going to do one in a little bit. And I'm actually very excited to do that one. Me too. I have some notes for it. We're doing High Heel Homicide, Jerry Brudos.
So, um, rate review. Thank you for sharing. And just a sincere thank you to the listeners who, again, thinking about what I just said, I don't even know if I need to say that because I feel like a lot of the listeners are like you, they kind of give us the benefit of the doubt. And that's a very, um,
valuable thing to have people do instead of having people look at you and try and pick you apart. Right. I feel like the people that listen to this are like giving us, like I said, the benefit of the doubt and assuming that if a joke is made, it's not. Well, I think I'm hoping and it seems to be the case that our listeners who we love and
adore they get it they get authenticity you can hear it the same reason how many podcasts have you switched off because the hosts are like disingenuous or tacky or classless you know what I mean or at least I listen to loads of true crime as you know so if I get rubbed the wrong way listening it's done yeah
So the fact that we have such wonderful listeners, I hope means we're doing something right. It does help. It does help the cause. So without further ado. There it is. I'm not sure you said that part one. I didn't. I was too nervous. Let's do a recap of part one and then dive into the other side of this. Okay. So here's the recap.
From June 2015 to June 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital in England, there was an alarming uptick in the infant mortality rate within the neonatal unit. 17 fatalities as well as countless near-death infant collapses occurred during that year alone, reflecting a very statistically unusual and alarming spike.
And each and every heartbreaking, tragic death and injury was traced back to one nightmare nurse who quite literally used her nursing license to kill. And of course, I am referring to the now infamous vile piece of shit,
Lucy Letby. Yeah, good descriptor. In part one, we also discussed the grand scale negligence of hospital administration. Yeah. Their complicity not only involved turning a blind eye to the unsettling pattern of infant fatalities linked to a particular night nurse, Lucy, but also silencing and in many ways embarrassing senior physicians who courageously flagged her obvious malicious intent and dangerous connection to those tragedies.
It was only in May of 2017 when the police were finally called in to formally investigate. And the pathologist on this case was convinced that he would find a biological explanation or a natural reason for the deaths of all of those poor babies. But eventually he determined that the deaths were caused by intentionally inflicted harm.
So side question, obviously 17 babies in one year is in your research. Did you find any other statistical anomalies that come even close? Like have there been any upticks in infant mortality in a hospital for a particular reason, a bacteria or whatever?
Or is it just like, no, it's, I mean, it's 100% one person doing this. What I do know is that it obviously varies year to year in an explainable sense, like in a way that can be explained. Yeah. This uptick was always
off the charts and inexplicable. And that's what set it apart. It was a 10% rise. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, from one person. Right. And for it to have gone on for so long. And now they have opened up an investigation, even though, you know, we'll get into where she is right now, but they've opened up the investigation to years prior to this one year in question because they do believe that she killed more over a longer length of time.
She's going to have to suffer the consequences of her actions. But for the sake of just my faith in humanity in general, I really hope they don't find any other deaths linked to her. I mean, seven is a lot. If they find out that it was like 45, God.
I may have a nervous breakdown. I know. I'm serious. I know. I know you well enough to know that that is an accurate concern you have. So the investigation started in May of 2017, and over the following months, investigators dedicated hours and hours to scrutinizing the schedules and work rotations of the entire personnel on duty in the neonatal unit at the Countess of Chester Hospital. Wait, I'm sorry. You said May 2017? Yes. Did she finish in June of 2017 or June of 2016? June of 2017.
So the investigation covers the years June 2015 to June 2016. But you said it started in May. But the formal police investigation started in 2017. So a year later. Correct. Okay, got it. I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were asking the timetable. I could have been more straightforward with my answer. I don't think I asked the right way. Okay. So let's both take responsibility. Okay.
So over the next few months, as I said, they started to really scrutinize the schedules and work rotations of all of the nurses on duty at that hospital in that unit. And they came to discover that the dates on which the babies were harmed had not been random. Okay. So at this point now, they've already connected it strictly to Lucy.
or rather that Lucy was the only one that had been present on duty for every single incident. Now they've determined that the dates on which the babies were killed or harmed were not random.
But rather, Lucy had chosen to hurt or kill her victims on significant days, such as the baby's due date, because remember they entered the neonatal unit premature most of them, or what is considered to be the most special of days on a neonatal unit, which is the date on which a baby is due to finally be taken home. So she targeted those days to do what she did. Wow.
After meticulously scrutinizing a substantial reservoir of incriminating evidence against Lucy Letbee...
A major step in the direction towards a semblance of justice was finally taken, and she was going to finally be made to answer for her despicable reign of torturing, brutalizing, blinding, disabling, and murdering innocent, defenseless babies. Because on July 3rd, 2018, at 6.03 a.m., Lucy Letby was finally arrested at her home.
Body camera footage released after her conviction showed the moment police knocked on Lucy's door until they walked her out 11 minutes later in handcuffs. And I don't know if you've seen that footage, Tank, because I know you tried to stay away from this case. I didn't watch it on purpose. So it's very accessible, and I've obviously watched it many times over. She looks like a deer in headlights, but...
And it's funny because I've obviously done loads of research on this now, but my first like knee-jerk response when I was watching this was she looks startled to have been caught versus I am so ashamed of myself or I can't believe what I've done or like she looks like
is this really happening to me? Yeah. She has a very bad tendency of playing the victim. Do you think it's just hubris? Like she just figured that she was never going to get caught and she couldn't believe that they finally caught up to her? I think so. I think that's a classic sadistic serial killer personality.
personality trait to have that arrogance. Yeah. We saw that with Jerry Brudos. The way he talked to police officers and, you know, like, I can say whatever I want. Like, you idiots are never going to have one over me. Yeah. You know, there have been so many others. But that level of arrogance is not uncommon. But then shock.
To me, it looked like shock. I think shock because I don't know if she truly believed that she would never get caught or shock that they would have the nerve. Probably both. Yeah, probably both. But arrogance leads to shock because arrogance makes you think that nobody's ever going to pick up on what you're doing and you're just never, ever going to get found out or caught. So when they knocked on her door, I'm assuming. Yes. They went to her house. Mm-hmm.
She was probably, I mean, her mind must have been going a million miles a minute. But fuck it. Let her head explode. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big ROAS man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend.
My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com slash results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com slash results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. When they brought her into the cop car, she sat in this very, like, almost childlike, high-pitched kind of innocent voice, and she said,
something along the lines of, and I'm paraphrasing, can you please move your seat up? I just had knee surgery. Oh, no. I'll move it back with fucking spikes on it and I'll set you on fire. How about that? I mean, I know. I know what you mean. I don't. This woman, she's arrested. I mean, we're going to get into it, obviously. I
I hope at the end of the case you tell me that something horrific has happened to her. I don't like when bad things happen to people in general. Yeah, this is probably the angriest I've seen you. And you are very empathetic. Like, you're always very in it with me when I'm, like, you know, crushed over these cases. But this case has you angry, Tank. Well, it's exploiting...
And what you just told me about waiting till their due dates or the day they were due to go home, like what's supposed to be the happiest day in a preemie baby's life and their parents. I mean, like the whole family, the level of diabolical planning. And she had so many different opportunities to say to herself,
I know I'm doing something wrong. I got to like either tell somebody about it. I always think of the werewolf when I think of killers. Cause like I've never killed anybody. That's good to know. That you know of. Ooh. But, but I, I, the only reason I relate to it or empathize with it is because I have addiction issues and I know what it's like to have an itch in your brain that only one thing can scratch.
So if your itch results in you having to hurt people, the Brazilian Dexter case, he felt like he couldn't sleep unless he killed somebody. Right. You know? I know what that level of obsession feels like. When I first got sober, I used to thank God that he didn't make me a serial killer. Not even a killer, just like a killer in general, because I was coming to terms with what it meant to act against your own will for the first time ever, because I had never even looked at it. So I usually empathize, but...
But I wonder... And this is just beyond. That itch that you mentioned that has to be scratched, would that not apply more for a killer who snaps versus a calculated, planned killer? No, it's not snapping. I think we've talked about it on here before, the movie Lovely Bones. Yes, we have talked about it. Where he says... It's a book. I can imagine it being written in the book and it was like a movie defining line where he's like...
this guy's brain was starting to itch and there was only one way to scratch it. And I remember hearing that and being like, oh my God, that must be terrifying. And then I think of the werewolf who begs all of the people around it in the old stories to leave. It's a full moon tonight. Get out of here. Like you do not want to be around me. I'm going to hurt you. Yeah. Yeah. But this woman just exploited and took advantage of the most powerful
dependent group of people you could possibly imagine. Yep, absolutely. The most vulnerable group of human beings on the planet. Like they have no respect for people who kill children in prison. Yeah, that's... Yeah, we'll talk about that. This is that times like times a million. Right. Yes, it is. She targeted them. Yes, she did. And she took them out. Yeah. Unreal. In November of 2020...
Lucy Letby officially faced 22 charges relating to 17 babies. According to Detective Superintendent Hughes, typically when a suspect is charged, there's often a sense of almost celebration that the wheels of justice have finally begun to turn. However, as the charges against Lucy were announced to the investigating officers, an atmosphere of silence prevailed. Yeah. Nobody really knew what to say, he said. That was a quote.
And he called it, quote, the most emotional experience of his 28-year career in the police. Yeah. And I get that. All right. We have a pop quiz, but I feel like we may have touched upon this and you may ace it. And I'm a little annoyed that I basically gave you the answer to this already. Let's see. Let's see how good your short-term memory is. Pretty good. Following Lucy's arrest, what happened? Aside from the knee, move your seat request. Okay. A, Lucy broke down.
B, Lucy claimed to experience auditory hallucinations that compelled her to do what she did, presumably as a strategy to construct an insanity defense. Or C, Lucy asserted that her arrest triggered PTSD and that she was being victimized. C. Yeah, I mean, I spoon-fed that to you. Yeah.
Yeah, I could have seen that one come in. So Lucy asserted that her arrest led to the development of post-traumatic stress disorder, which consequently left her with hypervigilance and an increased sensitivity to loud noises and disruptions.
As such, in a highly unusual move, the judge, Mr. Justice James Goss, concurred during the trial that Lucy would be exempt from walking from the dock to the witness box while presenting her testimony due to these challenges she now had. Furthermore, additional special measures were implemented, including the judge ordering that the courtroom be cleared until such time that Lucy was seated in the witness box and then everyone could come back in.
Fuck her. Who gives a shit? So, okay. That, no, hold on. I don't mean to cut you off, but I did. But I didn't mean to. It was a thing that happened. See, all of that would have just been an eye roll for me. I communicate. Over communicate. So she said that the arrest caused PTSD, but she killed the babies already. Mm-hmm.
So like, what does one have to do with the other? She was saying that the police, when they arrested her, that that whole experience gave her PTSD. Got it. Not from what she had done, but rather... No, I know. I'm saying, but like, what does one have to do with the other? She already killed the babies. It's not like she's saying, I have PTSD and that's why I killed the baby. She did not want anybody in the courtroom while she was walking from the dock to the witness box.
Let me tell you what's going on because you're correct to be questioning what the hell is happening. Where is this coming from? It makes no sense is what you're saying. I'll tell you how it makes sense in my mind. Okay. And then I'll tell you if I think you're correct. When I used to diet really hard and I had a cheat day on Sunday, I would eat food on Sunday that I didn't even want because I might want it on Wednesday. Hmm.
The following week. After like eight weeks of doing that, I was like, this is insane. Like, if I don't want it today, I'm not going to want it Wednesday. But it took me a long time to figure that out. Yeah. So her saying that her PTSD caused by the arrest has anything to do with what she did doesn't make any sense to me at all. She's not saying it has to do with what she did. She just wants special treatment. Correct. Exactly.
Yes, it's a power play that highlights her... I can't believe they gave into it. It just highlights her controlling and manipulative tendencies. And it sheds light on the... It's perplexing the willingness of those in positions of power to constantly shield her, right? So senior management at the hospital shielded her when all of these top-notch physicians were sounding the alarm
Yeah. Yeah.
thing I was thinking is that maybe the judge granted her that courtesy because he wanted to avoid the possibility of Lucy ever claiming that her testimony was given under duress and then calling for some kind of mistrial. Like, I'd hate to think that the judge's decision stemmed from
extending a courtesy to Lucy in that the judge believed her, but rather was making a strategic move to safeguard the integrity of the trial. Yeah. You know what I mean? I'm going to just want that to be the truth because I can't stomach the idea that anybody extended any level of courtesy to her. But you know what? Every once in a while, and I mean every once in a really long while, somebody comes along
who has this magical ability to manipulate everyone around them. And this may be the situation here. I'm not saying that this is the rule. It's definitely the exception as we're, you know, hopefully we'll see in the future. I'm sure hospitals are on guard now with this information. Sure.
Every once in a while, it may be a look in their eye. It may be a tone of their voice, the way they carry themselves, whatever. They're just able to get people around them to do things. Yeah. We usually call those people psychopaths. I mean. Well, this chick is definitely all of the above, whatever. Let's have this discussion in a little bit.
We're going to circle back. Okay. All right. So the trial that ensued at Manchester Crown Court had become the longest murder trial in British legal history. Her trial. Yes. Lasting almost a full year. Lucy's parents relocated to Manchester and attended every day of their daughter's trial with Susan, let be her mother, sometimes breaking into tears and appearing anxious when cross-examination became intense for Lucy. Remember, they're very, very doting parents.
Oh, she's an only child, right? She is an only child. Doesn't necessarily mean that she would have doting parents. Like Dave's an only child. His parents, I think, dote on him in a healthy, like a healthy amount. I just remembered that from the last case. I forgot that she was an only child and I forgot about the whole. Yeah. It seems like everyone wants to make the world as comfortable as possible for her. I think you're correct.
The jury was composed of seven women and four men. They were presented with 5,500 police statements. Oh my God. 32,200 exhibits. Wait, 32,000 exhibits? Yes. And more than 13,000 pages of audio transcripts. Wait, a fucking 32,000? Yes. I'm trying to do the math on that. I can't. I'm too dumb. Okay.
You're not dumb. I, every episode I remind you, you are so smart. 32,365 days in a year. 10 exhibits a day would be 3,650. It was like a hundred exhibits a,
a day if they never took a break. We're going to go into what some of those exhibits were, and it will maybe, this number may make more sense. I mean, it doesn't really make sense because it's astronomical. It's so hard to wrap your head around, but what they discovered in her bedroom, which we're going to get into, will help you to better understand why there were so many exhibits. So amongst the evidence presented were very detailed and disturbing diary entries that
Post-it notes and scraps of paper collected by police from Lucy's bedroom in which she appeared to have used a secret code to record the dates and details of her horrific crimes. Amidst the scribbles made with colored pens and childlike drawings of animals in her diary were several asterisks that police ascertained were indicative of significant events relating to the killed or injured babies.
On one note, Lucy wrote what the prosecution claimed was a confession in which she described herself as a horrible, evil person and wrote out the words, quote, I am evil. In all caps, I did this. So obviously the prosecution is running with this as being a confession. Yeah. On one green post-it note found inside the diary in her bedroom, Lucy wrote the following, quote,
I don't care to live. I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to care for them.
The defense maintained that the green post-it note that said that was not evidence that Lucy had killed and harmed the children, but rather indicative of a mental struggle that she was experiencing at the thought that she might have made mistakes at work that had accidentally hurt the babies. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Police also found a photocopy of a sympathy card that Lucy had given to one set of parents whose child she had murdered, in which she had written...
thinking of you today and always, sorry I cannot be there to say goodbye. They also found 257 confidential medical documents relating to the babies that she hurt or killed. That she stole? Yes. Well, photocopied or stole. Yeah. In other words, she kept trophies in true serial killer form.
After listening to 10 months of harrowing evidence and deliberating for more than 110 hours, the jury ultimately found now 33-year-old Lucy Letby guilty of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder six more. Remember I mentioned in part one that the numbers got tricky because they brought under the spotlight 17 cases, but in the end, she was convicted of seven murders and six attempts.
Now, it's worth noting that law enforcement has since announced, which I mentioned earlier, that they're looking into another 15 deaths as well as several other catastrophic collapses or injuries.
The UK government has ordered an independent inquiry into these incidents, including how concerns raised by clinicians were dealt with or not dealt with. Health Secretary Steve Barclay has pledged the voices of parents of the victims, saying that he pledges that these voices are going to be heard throughout the inquiry, acknowledging there are many questions that still need to be answered. Pop quiz. When was Lucy said to have cried during her 10-month trial?
A, when the baby's parents read aloud their victim impact statements. B, when the prosecution turned to her parents and shamed them for raising a serial killer.
C, when a doctor she had a crush on testified against her. C, because she's a piece of shit. Yes. Yeah. Yep. Fucking lunatic. Do you want to hear what a bigger, bigger piece of shit she is? As if it could get any worse, as if we needed any more proof, I made choice A. I said when the baby's parents read aloud their victim impact statements. Yeah, she doesn't care about that. Not only does she not care about it, she wasn't there for it. She refused to be there. Obviously, yeah. She's weak. Yeah.
And it's not, it wasn't required. The courts over there, I guess, don't require that the perpetrator be present for victim impact statements for the verdict to be read. She wasn't there for any of that. Wow. And I feel...
I feel terrible that the families did not get to face her when they were reading their victim impact statements. They didn't get to have their moment in her face. For some of them, that may have been easier, though. I don't know. I'm just trying to see the bright side of it. Maybe they didn't want to see her. I have no idea. I don't know. Yeah. I feel like, obviously, as I know you feel the same way, it was just such a cop-out for her. Oh, yeah. And I hate that she was granted that. Another, another courtesy was extended to her. Yeah. You know?
So on August 21st, 2023, Lucy was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison with a whole life order, which is the most severe sentence possible under English law. Yeah. What is, I saw that. What is a whole life order? It means that she will never be released from prison. No parole. She should not. Good. I'm in agreement. Now,
Now, only three women have ever previously received whole life sentences in the UK, and they were serial killers Myra Hindley, Rose West, and Joanna Dennehy. And we're definitely going to be covering all of them at some point. When are we doing those? Look at that face. We should do an episode called Whole Life Order where we cover those three. Yeah. I mean, they are some bad, bad motherfuckers. Bad bitches. Yeah. Yeah.
Not only should Lucy get the whole life order, she should be forced to stay alive during her time in prison because her killing herself is another cop-out. Yes, you're once again completely spot on. So when she wound up obviously going to prison, she was put on very close security watch and probably still is for two reasons. One, because when she entered the facility, she entered basically with a huge target on her back because child killers...
and child sex offenders are the lowest on the totem pole inside correctional facilities. Yeah. So that's one. And two, they put her on security watch so that she can't harm herself. Yeah. No, she should be forced to stay alive. Like they should not take special care of her and like give her vitamins or whatever. Just like make sure that she can take herself out so she doesn't have to suffer.
And again, I feel maybe I don't feel bad. I shouldn't feel bad. I just don't like wishing harm on people and especially in a retaliatory nature because I don't know. Life is fucking crazy and things go wrong all the time. But like for this level of things to go wrong, I just hope that she has to experience some, I don't know, some level of retribution. Of course. Her going to jail is,
a consequence, but it's not really justice. What would be justice? Justice would be her, this is horrific, but her being forced to have babies over and over again and have somebody kill them. That would be justice. That's something I can't, I can't go there. Something what?
Yeah, listen, I'm aware that that's a twisted thought I just had. Yeah. But it came out and it is what it is. No, you're having a visceral reaction. This case has made you very angry, as I've said. I haven't seen you fired up like this, I feel like. Yeah, that would be justice. I'm also watching this show, Painkiller. Oh, I watched it. On Netflix? On Netflix, yeah.
Where in the first episode, they're talking about some kind of settlement they're trying to get to. And she's like, they're like, we're trying to, you know. This is the Purdue Pharma, right? Yeah. The lawyers are like, we're trying to get justice for these people. And she's like, no.
No, you're trying to get payment. Miss Flowers? Yeah. Yeah. Very, very good series. But yeah, right. So this is a consequence, but it's not justice. I agree. Anyway. I agree. Now you all know how fucking sick I am. I think they already knew. Welcome to my world. It's not a fun place in that head of yours, is it? No, it's okay. I manage. So why? Why did Lucy let B do this?
Why did she wage a brutal war against helpless newborn babies? What the actual fuck was her motive? Yeah. Regrettably, I must convey to you again that as of now, neither I nor anyone else, except perhaps Lucy herself, can provide an answer to that question.
Her motive may never be fully understood, but the jury was presented with numerous possible theories in court that we will examine now together. Okay. And in my opinion, the analysis of her motives reveals that
that they are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Meaning there could be multiple motives or a combination of several driving forces that compelled her to do what she did. Because I see a hint of truth or a possibility in every single scenario. Yeah. So let's explore. Okay. Possible motive number one. She was a thrill killer who derived a sense of unparalleled excitement each and every time she took a life. And some of this, I have one theory that's my own. It's not that like groundbreaking, but...
A thrill killer is someone who commits murder not due to mental instability, sexual gratification, or personal animosity towards the victims. Instead, their motivation stems from a desire to experience the sheer exhilaration of taking someone's life. Even more specific than a thrill killer, Lucy falls into an even smaller niche of killers referenced to as healthcare serial killers.
So there exist two primary categories of medical serial killers. One who believes that killing their patient is an act of mercy. Okay, like an angel of death, if you will. Yeah. And the other is one who seeks recognition and praise by playing the role of savior. So putting them on death's door and then bringing them back. Exactly. Or, which we're going to explore next, or...
Or not being able to save them, but getting mad props for trying. Yeah. And for living through the ordeal yourself, because that must have been horrible. Must be so hard for you. Yeah. And a healthcare serial killer working at a hospital is like a kid in a candy store. Yeah. They are surrounded by victims who have blind faith in them. Obviously, I'm talking about the parents, as well as access to an unlimited source of medications and other items.
in Lucy's case, milk and air, that can be used for doing the deed. According to Beatrice Yorker, who's the co-author of the 2006 study Serial Murder by Healthcare Professionals, she said the following...
The opportunity is almost too easy. You don't have to be like Ted Bundy and organize your search of a victim. Yeah. Oh, my God. Let me ask you a question that you may not know the answer to. There may be no answer at all. Do those people typically develop the, what is it called, the pathology of psychopathy or whatever? Yeah.
after they get into the field or do they get into the field because they have the thing? Oh, I love this line of thinking. And I'll tell you why. Because the work we do at the law firm, something that particularly my brother, I picture him saying all the time during interviews and when he's making public statements, advocating for survivors and
So we represent, obviously, people who were sexually harmed by priests. Yeah. And women in particular who were sexually harmed when they were incarcerated. And he always says that it's...
It's sad, but the perpetrators often found themselves in the teaching field or working at a church or working as a correctional guard because that's where they had unlimited, unfettered access to what they were going for. I think if I had to say what comes first, the chicken or the egg, I would say that the person has these proclivities first and then is drawn towards the...
the setting that's going to enable them to feed it. Yeah, the only salvageable thought in that situation is maybe it was subconscious before they got into the field. And then once they got into the field, they were like, I remember when I was 12, I wanted to kill people. I wonder if that's why I'm here. Maybe I should try it out. And then they try it out and then it feels good for them or feels a lot or is an intense feeling and then they can't help but replicate it. And again, the unfettered access situation
It's something that just feeds into it. And you mentioned in the last episode, part one, that you noticed accurately that she was ramping up and that she was escalating because sadly, some of the babies towards the end of that year spree were found to have had very, very traumatic injuries. Bruises. Bruises. Right. She was shoving objects down their throat. I mean, I can't repeat it. And that is also true of...
serial killers who are driven by this itch as you've described it because once you scratch it and it comes back you gotta scratch it harder the next time and then harder the next time exactly exactly
So 35 Americans are killed by a healthcare serial killer each year. And it might be higher, but these deaths are so difficult to detect. 49% of convicted healthcare killers have been female nurses and 44% male. I don't know if I ever told you this. My great aunt was almost certainly murdered by her healthcare aide. Right.
Really? Yes. So she was doing well enough. Obviously, she had an aide, so she wasn't 100%, but she was completely mobile and independent in a sense that she could get up, walk around, use the facility, get a glass of water, take her medication. And she had this aide. And we get a call from the aide saying that our great aunt had died. She came into the room and found her on the floor dead.
There was so much evidence to indicate that there was no way my great aunt could have died in the manner that she suggested, number one. Number two, we found a check that she wrote, well, that she claims my aunt wrote to her. Yeah. Basically cashing out her bank account to her. And it was very clearly not my great aunt's handwriting. Really? So we are certain. Now,
Now, at the time, my grandmother, may she rest in peace, was alive. So my great aunt's sister. And we wanted to start an investigation. We wanted to go after this woman. Yeah, for sure. But my grandmother, who at that point obviously was elderly, just did not want to go through the trauma of seeking further action. But my point is, is that I am certain that this affected my family. Wow. So anyway, that's possible motive number one. Possible motive number two.
Lucy Letby is a sadistic narcissist. Parents and nurses both recall Lucy's unusual behavior when babies on the ward would exhibit sudden deterioration, which we now know resulted in the deliberate acts of her grubby little monstrous hands. She relished in the pain and misery that she caused to these babies and to their suffering families who helplessly watched the unthinkable occur.
I'm glad every time you mention her and describe her, it's something insulting. I really am. It's just like making me so happy. I fucking hate this woman. Am I bringing the levity? Yeah. Okay. Grubby. I mean, it's too kind. Yeah. So a sign of this being the case of her being a sadistic narcissist is
is that Lucy would search for the families of her victims on Facebook on the anniversaries of their passing, perhaps finding satisfaction in witnessing the anguish of mourning parents and colleagues. What, like they would post something about this being the anniversary and she'd want to see the post? Mm-hmm. Ugh. Mm-hmm. And sadism is also fairly common amongst thrill killers. So that's what I was saying earlier. There could be a combination of any of these motives. Yeah.
Pop quiz. Following each heart-wrenching murder, what would happen? A. Lucy would volunteer to bathe, dress, and take photographs of her victims. B. Lucy would take all of her colleagues out for drinks. C. Lucy would take time off from work under the guise of mourning. B.
No. Okay, well, that's good. A? Yes. That's the worst. Even worse. It is. It just hit me. I mean, I thought it would be shitty for her to bring her coworkers out for drinks, but the fact that she offered to bathe, dress, and photograph the children is like just her getting more of what she wants. I mean, this is...
classic fucking serial killer behavior. Sadistic narcissist. I don't know the other theories yet, but that's the one that feels the best to me. The most right. I agree. She'd also engage in text messages with friends and colleagues lamenting over the deaths while accepting all of the pats on her back for having been there for the victims and for having helped
help to fight for their survival. I wonder if any of her friends were sidebarring each other and being like, yo, this, our friend has a lot of babies dying on her watch. Here's why, I mean, listen, I don't know it's possible that some of her friends did that, but the friends that have been interviewed, one in particular, she said something like, until I hear Lucy confess to this, I still do not believe that she's responsible. Really? Yeah. She's that manipulative. Yeah.
Oh my God, because she's very close to these people and she's been manipulating them their entire friendship. Right. So she's got like a spell cast over them almost. Wow. I mean, there are serial killers, as we know, who have wives and husbands and children that they're living quote unquote normal lives with. Yeah. And then doing the unthinkable. Yeah. At night or on the side or you know what I mean? Yeah. Or at work.
Right. Yeah. Jerry Brudos would go upstairs in his house, have cheeseburgers with his kids and mother, go downstairs and violate a corpse. I mean,
That's wild. Yeah. Now at trial, a number of text messages were read aloud between Lucy and her colleagues. And it highlights exactly what we're saying, that she was like manipulating everybody and that she was really just this sadistic narcissist. So here's an example of some of the text messages that she had. Lucy said...
I said goodbye to Baby F's parents as Baby F might go tomorrow. They both cried and hugged me saying they will never be able to thank me for the love and care that I gave to Baby F and for the precious memories I'd given them.
It's heartbreaking. Fuck you, Lucy. And then the colleague responded, it is heartbreaking, but you've done your job to the highest standard with compassion and professionalism. And right now, Lucy's probably fucking aroused by this response. Yeah. And then she wrote back with, I just feel sad that they are all thanking me when they've lost him and for something that any of us would have done. But it's really nice to know that I got it right for them. That's all I want.
No. I'm going to throw up on my microphone. Yeah, this chick fucking sucks. Possible motive number three. Okay. She was playing God, and this was presented by the prosecution. Yeah. So during trial, prosecutor Nick Johnson told jurors the following.
She knew what was going to happen. She was controlling things. She was enjoying what was going on. Yeah. She was predicting things that she knew was going to happen. She, in effect, was playing God.
Lucy believed she held the ultimate power, and this is me now. That was the end of the quote. Lucy believed that she held the ultimate power to manipulate life and death and derived immense satisfaction from being the sole determinant of her patient's mortal destinies. Yeah. I mean, that to me, that rings true with narcissism as well. Right. Same kind of vibe. Agreed.
Possible motive number four, she suffered from Munchausen syndrome by proxy. Okay, so now that is a phrase I've heard 40,000 times in my life and I have no idea what it means. Do you know what Munchausen syndrome is? Not by proxy, but Munchausen syndrome. When a parent makes a kid think they're sick?
No, I mean, you have the right idea. I have no idea. It's okay. You took a shot and you were not terribly off. So Munchausen syndrome is a condition that people have when they either make themselves sick intentionally or claim to be sick because they feed off the attention that they get.
Okay, isn't Munchausen syndrome by proxy when a parent makes their kid think they're sick so they get the attention? Right, so by proxy, it's a psychological disorder marked by attention-seeking behavior by a caregiver. It doesn't have to be a parent.
through those who are in their care. So people with MSP may create or exaggerate a child's symptoms in several ways. They may simply lie about symptoms or they may alter test results, falsify medical records. They may even actually induce the symptoms themselves, like in real life, like poisoning or suffocating or starving or causing infection so that there are real symptoms that
for which attention is given to them by proxy. Yeah, okay. Think about it, right? Like if you tell people, this is like a very light example, but we always try and relate it back, right? Yeah. If you tell people that your son has the flu and they're like, oh my God, is there anything I can do for you?
There actually is. I need... Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's what this is, that people who feed off of that type of reaction and response. So they inflict it. They inflict the symptoms or fake it. The only person I've ever known in my life who had something like that was...
was my, I remember my neighbors when I was a kid, one of the girls confessed to my mom and I don't mean confessed in like a secretive, she just like said it and it was something that you would confess because it wasn't something you'd brag about unless she was bragging. She said she liked being sick because of the attention that she got from her parents. This girl was like eight, nine years old. Oh, but that is heartbreaking because I wonder what is going on in that house that she's not getting attention for the right reasons or, you know,
More than just from when she's sick. Yeah. That's the only frame of reference I have for it. I wonder if people who are like hypochondriacs or people that other people joke about being hypochondriacs have really an issue in which they're always thinking they're sick or wanting to be sick for this reason. Yeah. So if you guys want to give me attention, investigator Slater has been coughing for a month and she thinks she has a pulmonary...
So don't give her any attention. Give it to me. Feel bad for me. I was wondering where you were going with this. Okay. Possible motive number five. Oh,
Oh, there's a lot, huh? Just one more after this. Okay. She was love struck. So during the trial, the jury was also informed by the prosecution that Lucy had developed an intense fixation on an older married doctor who was part of her unit and who ended up testifying against her, which I mentioned during the last pop quiz. Yeah, yeah. The prosecution argued that her infatuation with this man played a role in her harming infants and
as she made the connection that whenever a baby would become seriously ill, he would show up.
Yeah, I don't like that one, but... I don't love it. I'm glad they presented it. But it's a possibility. Part of the puzzle. And possible motive number six, and this is my own musing, and it's not particularly deep, so hang on. This is the one I'm most excited for, by the way. She was a bitter, jealous individual who thought she was never going to get married and thought she was never going to have kids, and she took it out on the innocent. Yeah. One of the notes found in her bedroom said,
I will never have children or marry or know what it's like to have a family.
Now, Lucy, of course, refuted all claims relating to any one of the aforementioned possible motives. Yeah. And which is why to this day, or at least on the day of this recording, there still is not a definitive motive that anybody is able to place their finger on. Again, lots of theories, conjecture, but nothing confirmed. Well, in the other episode, we talked about how we like to, just as humans, not us in particular, just people in general, like to identify patterns so that we can avoid danger. Right.
So any of these theories being true kind of gives a little bit of a semblance of logic and rationale to it. But really, she may just be an evil piece of shit person. Yes. And also, I forgot there's another possible motive. I lied. This is the last one. She's an evil piece of shit person? She's a classic psychopath. Okay. Okay. But I want to explore this a little bit because it's not so black and white.
So presently classifying Lucy Letby as a psychopath is the subject of a lot of deliberation. Nicholas Johnson, the prosecutor, suggested that Lucy was often bored when she would attack her victims. And people with psychopathy tend to face chronic boredom throughout their lives, leading to a persistent need for excessive stimulation. And we touched upon that, right? Like you have to one up every experience to feel. Yeah.
Apparently, Lucy would scroll through Facebook nonstop and would send WhatsApp messages to her two best friends, both of whom also worked on the unit. They'd talk shit about colleagues, discuss patients, and arrange salsa and fitness classes while on duty. On one Saturday shift, Lucy attempted to murder a twin boy by injecting him with air shortly after arranging a bet on the Grand National Horse Race.
Two hours after the boy experienced a near-death collapse, Lucy messaged a friend, work has been shite, but I just won 135 pounds on the Grand National, along with a horse emoji. As her patient is dying. Right. That she killed. Right. Yeah. The prosecution alleged that she was bored, which is potentially a sign of psychopathy. Yeah. She was texting. She was flippant. She was unkind.
Wait, being bored is an indicator of psychopathy? You are fucked. Oh boy. Being bored, being bald, loving memes. In my completely unprofessional opinion, Lucy definitely seems to possess psychopathic tendencies. She's highly manipulative. She seems to lack empathy, remorse, and maybe she was bored.
but psychopaths typically know exactly what they're doing and crucially why they are doing it. And while she certainly knew that she was killing her victims, as I've mentioned many times now, her motive still remains unclear. She also lacks any kind of criminal history as well as a history of aggression. Basically,
Based on my research to date, the general consensus amongst analyzing psychiatrists and criminologists seems to be that Lucy Letby does not conform to the characteristics typically associated with psychopathy.
As we conclude this absolutely horrific case, I'd like to shift the spotlight onto the victims, encompassing, of course, the innocent babies who suffered the tragic fates that they did and the families who now bear the weight of eternal grief. Yeah. Because I am done focusing on Lucy Fuckbee.
She ought to be relegated to insignificance. A vanishing anomaly. Call her Mrs. L. Fuck her. Give her a letter like she did to the babies. Good point. So she really should just vanish. Be gone.
be this just anomaly like in our consciousness a discarded scrap that we just dispose of and just destined to never resurface yeah right I want her to completely fade into oblivion and to whatever fate awaits her in that prison relegated to hell here on earth and forever in perpetuity yeah
The paramount emphasis should be redirected towards rectifying the alarming extent of hospital negligence. Yeah. Our efforts must be redirected at implementing proactive measures to safeguard against the recurrence of such tragedies, coupled with expedited response strategies in the unfortunate event that evil finds its way back into a hospital ward.
I mentioned in part one, again in part two, that victim impact statements were delivered in court by the baby's parents.
And their heartbreaking statements were delivered through countless tears, trembling hands, lots of emotions as they bravely attempted to convey the level of trauma that they endured by losing their children or child. They tried to use words when words will never sufficiently convey their grief, trauma, and perhaps even guilt. Numerous parents recounted how grief had completely upended their lives. Many need antidepressants, one...
One admitted to turning to alcohol abuse. Some marriages were severely impacted and several continue to experience vivid flashbacks of watching their newborn babies perish in pain as they stood in the hospital corridor, helpless. Oh my God.
And it was clear during trial in court that these parents wanted to be heard. Yeah. That was the first time that they were given an outlet to articulate their sorrow and it held great significance for them to have that opportunity.
And now it holds equal importance for me to share their message with you, Tank, and with our listeners. You're not going to read the victim statements, right? A few little parts. I don't know if I can sit through that. A few parts. It meant the world to them. Okay, okay. And that's why we're doing this. That is why we're doing it. I'm going to muffle my microphone so you don't hear me crying over here. No, it's okay to cry. Best of luck to you getting through these statements.
One mother recalled desperately wanting to hold her newborn daughter as she slipped away, but could only cling to her tiny foot as doctors tried in vain to save her. Another parent recounted Lucy bathing and dressing her then-thriving seven-day-old son in a wool gown that she then ended up burying him in later.
I think because I think about my grandmother, she knitted all of these little outfits for my boys when they were born. And I can't throw them out because my grandmother passed. Yeah. They're so meaningful. And like you buried your child in that same like meaningful item too much.
The mother of one baby girl clutched a small gray rabbit teddy as she described how her heart broke into a million pieces the moment her infant daughter lost her battle against evil. She explained the agonizing process of removing all traces of her newborn daughter from their home, a home that the baby girl would never get to see. She buried her daughter's ashes in a tiny box the day on which she was supposed to be born. Horrific.
One mother recalled in court in shattering detail her baby's first moments in her arms, quote, the way he smelt the feel of his fine blonde hair on my chin and wondered what sort of eight-year-old little boy he might have been today. She wears her son's hand and footprints on a pendant around her neck to feel close to him.
Another mother sitting in the witness box said that she had only ever been able to hold her four-day-old son after he had been pronounced dead.
Chillingly, his killer, Nurse Letby, had also been in the room. And the mother said, quote, the trauma of that night will live with all of us until the day we die. Knowing now that his murderer was watching us throughout these traumatic hours is like something out of a horror movie. And I'm going to leave off on that before I die. Okay. You did pretty good. Thank you. I was thinking about rainbows. Oh. Or something else. I wish I could have been.
of been there in that thought with you. But like you said, it is nice. I mean, God, I can't imagine one of these parents listening to any of these podcasts and reliving it. But at least the people who, at least like you said, they didn't get to say it to her. Right. However many people listen to this is however many people will hear this.
If they wanted their sentiments to remain private, obviously 100 million percent, we would have honored that. Yeah. But they want to be heard. Yeah. And we are lucky enough to have a platform on which we can give them to the extent that we can offer any type of, you know, light. Yeah. They want their children remembered. And this is hopefully one way that we can help with that. Yeah. Yeah.
And that is the case of Lucy Lettbee. Yeah. Lucy Lettbee. Gone. Dead. Yeah. Just suffering.
Well, whatever. She's, you know, if she is a true psychopath, the problem is she won't suffer at her own conscience. No, she still considers herself a victim. Yeah, no, she's not. Maybe one day she'll have a reckoning. Who knows? Maybe. You know. I wouldn't count on it. Sitting there in jail 30 years later, she finally goes, oh my God, I can't believe what I've done. Who knows? You know what I mean? You never know.
But in the meantime, if you made it to the end of this case, you are a real one. Thanks for sticking it out with us, everyone. You're a brave person. Yeah. I would be interested to hear people's thoughts on this case in particular.
So if you made it to the end of this, you can email us at psychopediapod at gmail or send us an Instagram DM. Or if you're just sad, write us also so we can be sad together. Because this was like fucking rough. I mean, it just doesn't get worse than this. This case is... I hope this is the worst case we ever do. I don't even know how I put words on my computer screen. There are no words. So beautifully. Thank you for that compliment. But like...
It's so beyond articulation, comprehension. The fact that we... Here I am now. I cannot articulate it any further. I'm shot. Yeah. All right. Well, I think you did a great job giving these victims their airtime and their due. And you did a great job listening to the listener. Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Tank. I did a great job. You felt it. And I think what you do, as always...
a really great job of, and you definitely did it here, is you definitely speak on behalf of a lot of people and represent and say what I know a lot of people are feeling and thinking. So thank you for your part in this. Five stars from me. All right. We will see you guys next episode. Thanks for listening. Bye, everyone.