EP20: "F*cked To Death By A Horse" with Mark Normand
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Alright, welcome back to another episode of Psychopedia. I am your co-host Tank Sinatra here with my co-host... Investigators Slater. And a special guest in studio. This is a very special episode, just on many facets. The special guest is not Cash, your dog...

It is Jerry Seinfeld's favorite comedian, host of We Might Be Drunk podcast, Mark Norman. Hey, good to be here. Thanks for having me. Our first guest on the episode. Whoa. We really set the bar high. I'm honored. This is a big fucking get. I know. I disagree. I'm very lonely. I would have gone anywhere. Anywhere.

Mark, just to get this out there, you're currently on a break from a tour, but you are on tour. People can go to marknormancomedy.com to get tickets if they like what they hear during the podcast. Which they will. Correct? They're going to love it. They're going to love it. I am so fucking excited here. Mark, huge comedian, 12 million views on YouTube, part of the Protect Our Parks crew on Joe Rogan. Yeah.

but he's such a nice guy, very generous with his time. He came and did Think Tank, my podcast, five years ago when, I don't know what you were doing or thinking back then. Do you remember that? Nobody saw that one. Nobody saw that one. That was my most viewed episode of that podcast and it had like 6,000 views. At the time, I was beyond pumped.

to have that many views. I was happy to do it. You're huge on the socials. Instagram. Yeah, so I was excited about it. Yeah, but you're getting there, dude. You're pushing a million, and I hope by the end of this episode, we can get you to that 1M. I'm not huge anywhere, so thanks for being here, both of you. You're huge by association. You're big on OnlyFans.

I don't know if you knew that, but I'm a member. There's an AI-generated version of you out there. Yeah, I love it. Killing it. Great feet. So basically, her toes are... It's really the upper arch that sells it. Are you a foot guy? No, I'm not a foot guy. Are you a foot guy? No, I wish, because women wear sandals all day. It's like free porn. There would be so much more to life if you were a foot guy, right? Especially in the summer. Oh, the beach, flip-flops, forget about it. Can you imagine, just not to...

get off track too fast, but just being a super crazy foot guy and not being able to go anywhere because you're just turned on all the time by all the toes out there. Sounds kind of nice. It's got to be tough existence for a real foot freak though. Well, I like tits, but if you see tits, it's like,

It's so rare. It's a pride parade. Yeah, exactly. It's the best day of my life. So, Mark, you're a true crime guy to some extent, but not to the extent that our listeners are. And you and I are on the same side of the room for that reason, because I'm not, you know, just to get you up to speed, I'm not a huge true crime fan, but I'm getting more into it as we do the podcast. She has done a great job of selling me on it. But the reason we started this is because she's like,

psychotic about psychos yep in the best way possible thank you she tells the story in such a way that I'm able to listen and care but I can't help but derail it during the episode and that's what you're here to do as well just comedic timing whatever you jump in I'll jump in she will read right through it if it's not funny which she's done to me before she's cut me off she screamed at me okay

told me she was going to kill me yesterday, which was, I know. You're lucky to be alive. My wife is a huge true crime nut. And I hear a lot of it because of her.

I just find it so fascinating that we get offended by comedy, but this is real. Yeah. You know? And I'm like, it's just, this is like, I fucked her corpse. I killed a child before I raped it. Then I killed it. Cut a chicken's head off and put it on the tip of my penis. Yeah. And I'm like, I'm joking. This is actually real. You know? It's fascinating, the world we live in. Well, that's just it. It's fascinating. It is. It's real. These are real people doing real things, which is why I don't love when people refer to perpetrators as monsters because it lets

it lets them off easy and then it kind of like desensitizes the world to the fact that these are actual human beings doing deplorable things yeah but it's fascinating it is fascinating and like it's arguably within all of us that capability and why does it rise to the surface with some and not for others and if i had a different childhood there's reasons if i had a different childhood i would 100 be a serial killer that's why i don't watch a ton of

serial killer documentaries because I find myself relating almost to the killers. I'm like, hey, I don't have a great relationship with my mom either. Yeah, yeah. Am I going to snap? You got mommy issues. Comedian and serial killer are right parallel and we're both big on Netflix. Huge. Huge. Keeping Netflix in the black. They're running this way for a while then they break, you know, but it's a lot of similarities. Weird childhood, trauma, bedwetting.

Well, I'm glad you're a guest instead of the focus of one of the cases. Good point. All right. So with that said, rate, review, subscribe, iTunes.

Spotify. It really helps us out. We're trying to crack the top one. So it's a mystery, but from what I understand that has something to do with it. So listen, share, rate, review, subscribe, email us, find us on Instagram at psychopedia pod. Side note, big announcement. We have a Patreon now, patreon.com slash psychopedia pod, where we're going to give you more of what you want. Isn't that right? Investigators? It sure is. Psychopedia unhinged.

All the facts just loosely arranged and more personality. More riffing. I'm going to have a much longer leash on Tank during those episodes. So if you like what he has to say and you want more of it, Patreon is the place for you. Yeah. So you guys have expressed multiple times that you want more episodes.

And, uh, investigative Slater has a full-time job. So she's, you know, we got to get her to quit that job in order to do that. We need that sweet, sweet Patreon money. So patreon.com slash psychopedia pod for more episodes, but in a different way, more us, same amount of gruesome.

Definitely same amount of gruesome. Maybe a little more getting into the weeds with where the gruesomeness came from. Psychology. Which is what I love about these cases. Legal stuff. I don't even know the word for legal stuff. I said stuff. Legalese. Legalese. You can walk us through that. And I will just tell funny stories and drop tidbits of information that nobody really needs to know. And I'll let you go with it. So we'll see you over there.

And without further Gerard Depardieu, let us get to the case. You got fancy with it. I did. I got French. My father's a hero. Gentlemen, are you ready? Yeah. Yes. Okay. On July 2nd, 2005, at five. That was fucking yesterday. No, that's today. Whoa. My God. Hey now. Wow. You're on it already. Oh yeah. A 45 year old man in Washington state frantically informed his friend that he needed medical attention right away.

In layman's terms...

His colon ruptured, which caused all of the contents inside of it to leak out into his abdomen, resulting in a fatal infection that ultimately claimed his life. Can't wait to find out how his colon ruptured. Yeah. I can almost promise you that you have no fucking clue how his colon ruptured. All right. We got a twist. An M. Night Shyamala. And it's not a common injury. Those who suffer from it actually face a 70% mortality rate.

when this gentleman entered the hospital with his injury, the ER doctors felt that it was a suspicious death and they notified the police and it prompted an investigation.

And the outlandish revelation made by law enforcement regarding the cause of this fatal injury to his colon was truly jaw-dropping. She knows how to tell a story. I need to know now what's happening. It ultimately held significant legal implications for the state of Washington. All right. So what caused the decedent to suffer such a rare and fatal injury to his colon?

Pop quiz. Pop quiz. So, Mark, here is where I quiz you. I give you some options and you guys go ahead and pick which one you think is right. Should we convene and try and land on an answer or do you want to just... I mean... Maybe we'll go separate. Let the spirit move you. Yeah, okay. All right. So what caused the fatal injury? A. An enema he received that was poisoned with hydrochloric acid.

B, a spiked gag ball that tore through the man's digestive tract after he inadvertently swallowed it. Ooh. Or C, a colossal erect penis that penetrated the man's anus and quite literally ripped him a new one. Wow. Well, the third would be flattering. Yeah. For whoever, whatever guy that is. But, uh,

I'm going to go with the gag ball. You're going to go gag ball? So specific. It feels like it's got to be real. I'm going to recuse myself from this pop quiz. Okay. Because I know what it is. Oh. Because we kind of talked about potential cases for him because we wanted to bring you a fucking good one. I do that, if you will. So I know that it's whatever it is. But gag ball, we'll go with the gag ball. All right, so you're going with the gag ball? Yeah.

The answer is C. Whoa. A colossal erect penis. A huge dong. Huge. You should have saved this for Pride Month. It's over. Fuck to death. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. So was it the driver?

It was not the driver. Because if it was, you got to kind of go, eh. It's even more suspicious. Yeah. I'll take you to the hospital. At least I can do. It wasn't the driver, but the individual responsible for forcefully penetrating the victim's anus with his Herculean-sized penis. Wow. Resulting in a perforated colon, was a total beast in stature with an extraordinarily muscular physique. Was not Tank either.

by the way. Not that guy. And while he ended up killing his partner, the perpetrator had no malicious intent towards his victim because the perpetrator of today's case was a horse. Oh! Oh!

Oh, man. Yeah, I went there. Just a regular Saturday night for Mark. Yeah. Jeez. Woo! Anyone else hard? Oh, my Lord. Wow. Herculean dong. Got him. Yeah. Today, we are delving into the highly disturbing and legally significant case of the Enumclaw horse sex ring.

And we're going to explore the untimely... Wait, hold on. The engineer just goes, what? So we're going to explore the untimely demise of the aforementioned unidentified man who was later revealed to be a man named Kenneth Pinion, also known as Mr. Hands. Brace yourselves, boys, as we dive deep into the intriguing and unsettling realm of an ordinary-seeming individual with an ecstasy

extraordinary sexual appetite that ultimately proved fatal. So it's the enumclaw horse sex ring. Yes. So there's multiple people or parties involved in this. Yes. I'm afraid so. I mean, you've seen a horse dong. Yeah. I would never think, even if I like things in the pooper, I would never think to put that in there.

It's huge. That's why you're on the couch and not in her computer right now being read off. I guess so. True. True. So that's what we're saying. Like, this is all. Yes. Most people are have their thing sexually freaky fetishes, whatever. But they take it so far. This guy would not be satisfied until he got fucked to death by a horse. Yeah. That was his thing. And we always say that on psychopedia. If somebody lands a feature on psychopedia, they're an outlier. Hmm.

So this isn't like a typical type of thing you would see. Sure. Although it's not as uncommon as you might expect, which we will get onto here. Wow. Disturbing. I thought, I didn't know true crime counted bestiality. Oh. It depends on how the horse got there. I mean, when someone dies and it's a little bit suspicious. And there's a ring. And you have investigators later on it. We're going there. Okay. All right. So giddy up. Take the reins. Giddy up. Giddy up. Giddy up.

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LinkedIn, the place to be, to be. Kenneth Pinion entered the world on June 22nd, 1960 as the son of Margaret and Dougland Pinion. There were no remarkable incidents in his childhood that I discovered, and he seemed to have a stable and uneventful childhood. Stable, hey now. Hey. Hey. Okay.

He tied the knot with his future ex-wife, Andrea Robert, in 1981. But their marriage ended in divorce on September 17th, 2001. So a little bit of a backstory into this guy's life. I'm not going to fuck you with a horse strap on. It's not going to work out. Professionally, Kenneth worked as an engineer for Boeing aircraft from 1997 to 2005 while residing in Gig Harbor, Washington.

During this time, Kenneth had embarked upon a new home construction project along the Key Peninsula Highway that was to include a barn in which he planned to keep a horse. Oh. However, Kenneth's construction plans were put on hold following a life-altering motorcycle accident that had unexpectedly caused him to lose sensation in his sexy parts. Oh, okay. All right.

He probably had a spinal cord injury or something that intercepted the sensory neurons from firing off. But the exact injury actually is not like very public. Okay.

So while the initial injury of the motorcycle accident did not result in immediate fatality, it triggered Kenneth to make a series of questionable decisions, to say the least, in pursuit of regaining those sweet, sweet, sexy feelings. Got it. That he could no longer experience by like a touch or a yank or a normal fuck. Or a regular dick. Correct. Yeah, in the butt. So it was those decisions that ultimately proved to be fatal.

The progression. Yeah. Yeah. All right. But seriously, like losing the ability to experience sexual pleasure is undeniably a profoundly devastating situation to find yourself in. Sure. I'm talking to two men. For two years, I couldn't taste anything. It was really upsetting. Couldn't smell. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine if that was your asshole.

The innate urge to reproduce shapes the existence of most species, including humans, and the accompanying rewards of engaging in the primal act of procreation are a fucking fantastic part of life for many people, right? Yeah. Sexual activity, particularly during orgasm, triggers the release of oxytocin, commonly referred to as the feel-good hormone, responsible for feelings of well-being and happiness. And bonding. And bonding, correct, right. So,

So there was a study done in January of this year by an organization called Tracking Happiness, which like the name suggests, is a group with a mission to help people understand and achieve personal happiness. All right. And the name of the study that they conducted in January was What Does Happiness Mean to You? In this study, participants were asked to choose five words that they felt most associated with the word happiness, since there really is no universally agreed upon definition.

So they gave a list of words, including laughter, joy, pleasure, purpose in life, love, relationships, wealth, family, and many others. And of course, sex. Pop quiz. Amongst the 1,155 participants in the study, where did sex rank on the list? Survey says... A. First on the list by a long shot. B. Third on the list behind love and family. C.

C, second to last. Oh, a thousand people they asked? 15, whatever it is? 1100 about. I'm going to say, I think it's probably B. What was B? Third on the list behind love and family. What if you're into your family?

Sexually. Then it would be number one by a long shot. I'm going to go number one. First on the list by a long shot? You are both wrong. Shit. Yeah. Second to last on the list? Yeah. Whoa. Second to last. Chosen by only 15% of the participants in this study.

Oh, wow. What a bunch of virgins. Yeah. Unsurprisingly, the men in the study were 250% more likely to associate sex with happiness than the women. Unsurprisingly. Sounds like my wife. Guys, you guys are dirty bastards, all of you. Oh, yeah. But the men

But the main finding of the study indicates that the individuals who identify as being happy are 59% more likely to link sex with happiness compared to those who identify with being unhappy. So you see that according to the study, there is a correlation between sex and happiness. Yeah. So in an attempt to restore his sexual sensations and consequently find happiness, he

Kenneth started experimenting with large dildos, fisting, and other high-intensity sexual acts, including receptive anal sex with stallions. Wait, high-intensity sexual acts? Like he's in the gym, like he's working out? Wait, so hold on. Say the last sentence one more time. High-intensity sexual acts and... Including large dildos, fisting, and other high-intensity sexual acts, including receptive anal sex with stallions. Wow.

So hold on a second. I know about fisting. Sorry. So that's what the bandage is about? Yeah, that's it. Okay. I know Kenneth. Presumably was straight, right? Because he was married? Presumably, yes. Oh, good point. But then because he can't feel his wiener, he goes around back and starts trying to experiment over there? Is that what's happening? Yeah, that's exactly what's happening. Exactly right. Now, was it a black stallion? Because now we're interracial. Yeah. Just curious. Yeah.

So I do have another pop quiz for you guys. All right. What term describes the feelings of sexual arousal or sexual preference for non-human animals? Oh. Is it A, bestiality, B, zoophilia, C, furophilia? Ah.

I'm going to go A. Bestiality. Yeah. I'm going B. Zephilia? Zephilia. You got it right. I get very proud of him when he gets it right because he's very rare. I get him wrong all the time. I've never heard of Zephilia. Yes. Well, bestiality is the act. Very good. Why do you know so much about this? I just know about language. I love when the engineer laughs. I don't.

Not at that. No, zoophilia obviously is like the concept of the thing and the bestiality is the act. Absolutely. The carried out act. And furphilia is your thing.

Oh, wow. What is that? What do you hate? People in fur coats? No, she wears a lot of fur. We went out to dinner last night as couples, my husband and I and Tank and his wife. And he just dropped this bomb during dinner that he does not like when I wear faux fur, which I happen to do a lot. I said, what are we going to wear tomorrow? Meaning today, here at the recording.

And she said, I have a big white thing that goes across both shoulders. It's eight inches high, envelops my head. And I said, please don't wear that. I mean, his loss. No, I'm kidding. I did mention the fact that I'm not a huge fan of just fluffy clothes in general. But she came dressed like she was going to a Rocksteady reunion. So it worked out okay. This is how I dress, man. Yeah, exactly. Take it or leave it.

All right. So zoophilia, as Tank has said, is the term used to describe those who experience an attraction or sexual preference for animals. But it's important to note, and you may not know this, or maybe you do since you seem to be an expert on this, scarily enough. Zoophilia encompasses not just a physical attraction, but also an emotional one. Well, I have that, which you do also. I know you're in love with your dog. I'm in love with him, but I don't want to get busy with him. No, but you have one half of zoophilia for sure. No, no.

No, when I say an emotional connection, it's more like the type you have with a spouse or a significant other. Like Team Jacob in Twilight. Yes, exactly. I was Team Edward for the record. I'm Team Jacob all day. Oh, fuck off. He imprints on, who does he imprint on? Which one, the wolf?

Yeah, Bella's Kid Renesmee. Yeah. All right. It is what it is. Yeah, yeah. You can't help who you fucking imprint on. No, but... Well, my boner's gone. All the Twilight talk. But can I just say this about zoophilia or whatever, which is a woman I dated in the Bronx. But...

It's got to be great to be attracted to animals because there's so many options. There's like zoo, petting zoo. You can pet a dog, touch a cat. If you get caught looking at kitty porn, you go to jail. If you get caught looking at kittens, you're sweet. Fair point. Maybe that's why kittens...

made the internet so big in the beginning. Maybe. Gross. It was all those zoo files pumping up those numbers on ICanHasCheeseburger.com. And then is it weirder to be into kittens than it is to be cats? Because that's kind of pedophilia. Pedophilia with a T. Ah.

Nice. Nice. I am a pedophile, but not, oh, please don't take that out of context for the love of God. Definitely soundbites. Definitely. P-E-T-O-phile. Like, I like petting dogs. Same, same. Love petting a dog. But zoophiles, which are the people who are into zoophilia, they're into, like, a relationship versus a hookup. Oh, okay. Like, it's sentimental. They're not looking for a one-night stand with Rover. No. No, they want to, like, sink their teeth in, so to speak. Got it, got it. Right?

A study of self-identified zoophiles found that some are attracted to the unique appearance and odor of animal genitalia. Whoa. You lost me. And others are actually attracted to the taboo nature of the behavior, and others are just attracted to the being itself. Yikes. So pick your poison there. So we know from past cases that we've covered on this podcast, Hank, especially, paraphilias are understood to be escalated fetishes.

that lead to an adverse consequence in the life of the person who has the paraphilia. Fetishes are fine and normal. You have a shoe fetish, fine. It's not dictating your life. You're not getting harmed in the process of like exploring that fetish. A paraphilia is heightened. Gotcha. All right. Even within the realm of paraphilias, there's a range. Like in the case we did the feed me, fuck me, kill me episode. Do you remember what the name of the paraphilia was that Sharon Lepotka had? Um...

No, but we did a case, feed me, fuck me, kill me, on this woman who wanted someone to feed her to death, essentially. Just stuff her fat, you know, just make her obese. And then cannibalize her. And then eat her. Whoa. I don't remember what it was called. Even more sort of astounding than that, if you can get more astounding than that, she just wanted to be killed. That was her sexual fetish. So it's called...

Auto Assassinophilia. Auto Assassinophilia. That's right. That was one of the pop quizzes I got right too. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So auto, which means I and then assassinophilia like assassinate myself. And she went through with it. She actually found somebody that killed her.

By feeding her. It was not the feeding aspect. No, that was the first. That was one of the things she did. Then she moved on. She was like, no one's going to feed me to death. Just fucking kill me. Right. I want to find someone to kill me. Is this what happened to Kirstie Halle? R.I.P. By the way, Tank, do you remember what fornophilia is from that episode? Die while fucking?

No. Because fornication? No, but that's good. I see what you did there. No. I don't remember now. It's the fetish of turning a human being into a piece of furniture. Oh, that's right. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So it's about sexual objectification. Oh, baby. Sit on me. Yeah. So individuals who have zoophilia are commonly referred to as zoophiles or zoos for short, and they are not to be confused with people who engage in bestiality. Oh, really? Correct. Correct.

Bestiality is the performance of the sexual act between a human and an animal. So an individual can be a zoophile without engaging in bestiality if the line is drawn between fantasy and reality. So having sex with an animal and wanting to have sex with an animal are not necessarily the same thing. Bestiality is the act. Zoophilia is the mindset.

Okay. All right. We don't do that with pedophilia, though. We do not. There's just nothing okay with pedophilia. Gotcha. No, I think we do. Because if you're a pedophile and you don't ever act on it, you don't look at kiddie porn, you don't touch any kids. Oh, well, yeah. If you're a closet anything, nobody knows about it. Yeah. What can you do about it? Yeah. Right. Right? You don't know.

So the practice of having sex with an animal is as ancient as it gets. Evidence of this can be seen in a 25,000-year-old bone rod carving depicting a lioness licking the opening of either a large penis or a vagina. Another early depiction of bestiality is found in a cave painting from the 7th century B.C. in Italy showing a man having sex with a donkey. Italy's into that kind of stuff. Yeah, aren't they? Very close to Greece. Roman women... Ride that pony.

Roman women were known to have kept snakes that were trained to coil around their thighs and slide past the lips of their vulva. I don't know why I'm doing this gross thing with my hands. You're really painting a vivid picture there. So we see bestiality pop up in ancient Greek mythology, as one of you just suggested, in ancient Egypt, right? We see it in hieroglyphics. And we see it in ancient China, where men were said to have been having sex with geese. Yes.

And just before orgasm, they would break the goose's neck, causing the sphincter to constrict and spasm and clamp down on their penises right before climax. That's how they make foie gras. That's how we got COVID.

So ancient bestiality was prevalent enough to have been specifically mentioned in the Bible, which did threaten death as punishment for those who were caught. So they weren't like pro bestiality, but that's how far back it goes. The point is it's mentioned. Correct. Yeah. Got it. It's been around.

Because of the lack of research on the subject in modern times, it's difficult to definitively conclude just how prevalent bestiality is and estimates vary. But the research tends to suggest, and I was surprised by this, that 8% of men and 3.6% of women have engaged in bestiality. What?

Whoa. And 2% of the population have experienced zoophilia. That's not like insignificant. No, that's something. Wait, the percentage of people that have done it is higher than the percentage of people that think about it? No, no, no. Well, it's different. Yeah. Those who have the emotional attachment. You know 10 guys, one of them fucked a dog. Damn. Oh, God. 8%. Zoophile internet forums are actually becoming more prevalent. Don't bring it up on a fully loaded tour. Yeah.

So one of the largest forums, and it's growing every day, is a forum called Beast Forum, which claims to have 1.2 million subscribers and even more unregistered participants. Wow. What about veterinarians? Oh.

I feel like they could really get down and dirty. We'd have no idea. I know. They just get, with my dog, they get right up in that butthole. They squeeze those anal glands like it's nothing. What if that's why they go into it? Exactly. Like priests. Well, I was just going to say that. And I work in the fields where I investigate animals.

clergy members. Not all priests. Not all priests by any means. Not all. But you brought it up, so I'm addressing it. And really, people with those urges tend to place themselves in the situations that will provide them access. Yeah. Like the morgue guy who wants to fuck... Yes.

Dead bodies. Necrophilia. There you go. Yes, yes, yes. So it is important, though, to keep in mind that these statistics are prone to error because there's really a lack of research on zoophilia and bestiality, likely because of the stigma involved, right? Yeah, I'm not fucking checking that box. No. Exactly right, though. That's exactly the reason.

Now, getting back to the case of Kenneth Pinion, while he engaged in bestiality, he identified with being a zoophile or a zoo, indicating by definition that he experienced some type of emotional attachment with the horses that he romped around the hay with.

Nice. According, though, to Charles Mudady, he's the co-writer of a 2007 many-time-over award-winning documentary about this case called Zoo. Kenneth and his cohorts, which we're going to go on to hear more about, were fixated on monstrous penises versus the actual horses themselves. Okay, so the horse itself was a means to an end. Got it. Kenneth actually had a cast created for

of the penis belonging to his favorite horse. Good for him. It's a red flag. Yeah, not good. Where do you store it? With your other sex toys, of course. Yeah, but it's like this long. A bed is much bigger than that. Just right underneath. Not that I know. Yeah. Where do you keep yours is what I'm asking. What? Where do you keep yours? I'm not telling.

So like many people with less than common or accepted paraphilias, Kenneth took to the internet to satiate his sexual appetite and to link up with other people who had the same taste in meat as he did. Wow. So it was on the internet where Kenneth Pinion met the friend that would wind up driving him to the hospital on the night of his death. This guy went to the Belmont Steaks. He was like, oh, fuck. Trifecta. So the friend's name was James Michael Tate.

James Tate was a 54-year-old truck driver who lived in a trailer on a 40-acre farm located in an unincorporated area in King County, Washington, five miles northwest of the city of Enumclaw. So like public land, it's not even a town. Yeah, exactly. It's outside of municipality. Yeah.

Crucially for James Tate, the farm on which he lived bred Arabian stallions. Nice. Yeah. Well, Arabian, exactly. Arabian eyes. Like Arabian gang. So Arabian stallions, FYI, are valued for their speed, stamina, beauty, and intelligence. Which horses have the biggest dicks? He had good taste. Yeah. I could not possibly answer that. That didn't come up in your research? It didn't. And I didn't explore it. My bad. Sure.

Kenneth began to regularly meet up with James as well as a whole other group of zoos in early 2005 to engage in sexual acts with each other, as well as with horses on different farms that they would trespass onto during the night.

Studies have found that 83% of men who engage in bestiality do so about three times a week. Wow. So if you're in it, you're in it. Yeah. Whoa. That's a lot of funny business. Imagine you're a farmer and you wake up and your horse is just trotting around all different one morning and you're like... What did you get into last night? Yeah.

So once the men in this group were amongst their majestic steeds, it was lights, camera, action, because they'd film their massive interspecies orgies before posting them online. Wow. Is that available? Yeah, it was for a while. Send me the link. I shall. For research purposes. I've got so many questions. Right.

So on the night of July 2nd, 2005, Kenneth James and a third unidentified man snuck onto a local farm in the area as they'd done many times before with video cameras in hand and one thing on their mind. Now first, either Kenneth or this third person recorded James being anally penetrated by a stallion. And this particular horse was a crowd favorite amongst this trio of men. And as such, they assigned him a cute little name, cute little nickname.

Pop quiz. Yeah, I knew that was coming. What special name did the men give to the horse they fucked? A, Naughty Boy. B, Johnny Rocket. C, Magic Stick. D, Big Dick. What you got for me, Mark? I'm going to go C. Magic Stick. Magic Stick. All right, Tank?

I just feel like the funniest outcome would be if they called him Johnny Rocket. No, you guys are both wrong. Both wrong. Big Dick. Big Dick. Oh, come on. Of course a truck driver has no creativity. This guy's got a big dick. Let's call him, I don't know. Yeah. Big Dick. So after James Tate was finished getting railed by Big Dick, it was Kenneth's turn. Now, you may be wondering how the men were consistently able to arouse the horse to

enough for him to engage in anal penetration all night long with various human beings. Yeah, Viagra.

So the men trained the horses involved in their orgy sex ring to penetrate them by stripping, applying a horse breeding pheromone and bending over. It's mostly the pheromone. It's that easy. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. How about that? Did they feed it a sugar cube after? After they let it fuck it? Or do they do the weird carrot in the mouth where they feed it with their mouth? It's so romantic. Yeah. I like that.

And as we already know from the top of this episode, Kenneth tragically died during his last encounter with Big Dick. Yeah, why was James able to take it and...

Kenneth was not. Good question. Kenneth had a short male vulva or whatever. I don't know what the words I just said were. His butthole just was not built the same way as James. It's not made of strong stuff. Is it shooting a load in there as well? Oh, Jesus, man. I'm just curious. One of the names that I was going to suggest for the horse was super soaker, if that answers that question. Oh, that's good. Or semen demon. Or semen demon. Hey, I like it. Work it in. Ugly head once again.

Let's delve into the investigation that unfolded after Kenneth Pinion's death and the legal ramifications that it had upon the great state of Washington. So law enforcement utilized CCTV footage from the hospital that captured James Tate's license plate number after he dropped Kenneth off at the hospital the night he died.

And this breakthrough led law enforcement to a rural farm in the Enumclaw area, which gained a reputation in the zoophile chat rooms as a hotspot for engaging in sexual acts with animals. Like the park and ride. Yes, or the Comac Motor Inn. Yeah. Where we grew up, there was like this seedy motel, which is still there. Yeah. And everybody went there.

to fuck everyone. It's so gross. It's on Jericho Turnpike, which is a main, main, main, main, main road. And you pull out and you're just, you're just exposed to hundreds of cars driving by. I never went there. I don't know how people went there and pulled out with like any kind of

Dignity? Dignity whatsoever. Is it hookers or is it just couples? It's high school kids. It's everything. It's STD land over there. It's nasty. Comac Motor. Comac Motor. It's still there. Yeah, of course it is.

They're doing horse stuff now. They're cleaning up. So while searching the farm, investigators discovered and confiscated approximately 100 VHS tapes and DVDs containing hours of video footage depicting men involved in bestiality.

And among these recordings was a video capturing Kenneth Pinion taking it up the ass by Big Dick on the night of his tragic death. The one that did him in? Yeah. Wow. Good luck for them to be able to capture that. Or bad luck, I guess. They had to like sift through hundreds of hours. Oh my God. Who did that? I don't know, man. But I bet that person's not doing okay today. Becoming a cop because you want to like help people and protect and serve and all that. And they're like...

you're on fucking dick duty today. You're going to watch a hundred hours of men getting railed by horses. Yeah. Back in the saddle. Desk jockey. Yeah. Desk jockey. Now here's the question. What is the eulogy like? You know, do they mention this, the eulogy? Because it's public knowledge, obviously. It is. Unumclaw. Unumclaw. Unumclaw. Yeah, if I were giving the eulogy, I'd probably focus on the tragedy of the motorcycle accident. Oh, yeah. The fact that he,

He, you know, he was put, his back was against the wall. He wanted to, he wanted to enjoy sex, man. Well, he was ride or die. Yeah. All right. You're a rough rider. Or both, as it were. I mean, we're poking fun, but I feel bad. I feel bad that he was in that situation. But I tend to feel bad. Yes, listen. I'm too empathetic on a good day. Perhaps if you have, listen.

I have not had a motorcycle accident where I lost sexual pleasure, but I imagine there may be some spiritual work to do before you go finding horses to rape you. I would agree. I would agree with that. Or maybe just get really into knitting. I don't know, like something. Knitting. Sudoku. Pack the same punch, man. Pokemon something. Yeah. Pokemon. Gotta catch them all. Gotta fuck them all. Yeah.

So after Kenneth's death, law enforcement began searching for a means to hold the other zoo files accountable, which brought the legality of bestiality into question in Washington state. The prosecutor's office sought to press charges of animal abuse against James Tate. However, despite the hours of videotapes that they sifted through, the police were not able to find any evidence of animal mistreatment. And at the time of Kenneth's death, there was no evidence of animal mistreatment.

There was no specific law prohibiting consensual and non-harmful sexual activities involving animals. Yeah, they were probably like, why would we make a law about this? Who's going to? Yeah, it's interesting. So prosecutors could only proceed with charging James Tate with trespassing since he had like trespassed on a random farm that night to access Big Dick. Yeah.

So one question that I had while researching this case was how the actual fuck in the year 2005 was bestiality not prohibited in Washington state?

Well, that's because it has to do with the justice system basically taking one step forward with respect to decriminalizing consensual sexual acts amongst humans. And simultaneously in doing that, taking a step backward in terms of decriminalizing bestiality. And here's what I mean.

In the 1970s, many statutes that criminalized certain consensual sexual acts like oral sex and anal sex between consenting adults in various U.S. states were repealed, which means that they were revoked or they were withdrawn. And on July 1st, 1976, in the state of Washington, the following law was repealed, meaning that prior to that date, this was the law.

Every person who shall carnally know in any manner, any animal or bird, I don't know why there's a distinction there personally, but, or who shall carnally know any male or female person by the anus or with the mouth or tongue,

or who shall voluntarily submit to such knowledge, or who shall attempt sexual intercourse with a dead body, shall be guilty of sodomy. Wow. So, human oral and anal sex consensual amongst adults was tethered to bestiality and necrophilia. Whoa. Yeah. What about vaginal? What about? No, that's fine. That was always fine.

Oh, I remember learning about sodomy laws whenever I got really into sodomy and no, I remember hearing about it and like, just like, what is it? And it was like, you can't in certain laws in certain states where sodomy is illegal, but you can't finger a girl.

Right. It's not sex. Right. It's against the law. Sex is only allowed if it results in the procreation or the attempt to procreate. And it can't be gay. I mean, for the love of God, not in Washington. Yeah. It makes you wonder if these guys, they're all getting plowed in the ass, but they're all hanging out and drinking probably and filming. Wouldn't one of them go, hey, Bob, you want to fuck me? Yeah. But it's only the animals.

It's actually everybody fucking everybody. Oh, it is. All the men did engage in penetration with each other. Got it. As well as with the animals. Okay, okay. So it's just a big fuck fest. From a motorcycle accident. Right. But like you said, Tank, there's likely...

beneath the surface. Yeah. But what I found interesting is a lot of times in the cases that we cover on Psychopedia with the most depraved killers you can possibly imagine, you can point to something in their past that kind of explains why they turned out the way they did. And we always say this, we don't accept it and we don't excuse it and we don't like forgive it, but we can understand it.

In this case, what I find fascinating about Kenneth Pinion is looking at his childhood, from what I could find, there really isn't anything that we can point at to say, oh, that happened. Like, he suffered an unimaginable amount of child abuse or...

a tumultuous upbringing. Nothing like that pops up in his history. Yeah, well, sometimes these accidents can hit your head funny and that'll do it. That's a good point. That's a great point, Mark. If it affected his sexual organs, maybe it affected his brain too. Right. Right. That's an excellent point. And I actually, I hadn't thought of that. So, good job. Hey, thank you. What a genius. He's so smart. I was hit on the head as a child, but now I'm attracted to. Explains a lot. Yeah. So,

an effect of that repeal was that bestiality and necrophilia became legal in the state of Washington. Decriminalized. No. Legal. In effect of repealing that law that had all of those things wrapped up in one in an effort to make oral sex and anal sex legal. They revoked it. They repealed it. But those laws were like binded. They were tethered to each other. So in doing that, they also legalized bestiality. Oh,

And necrophilia. So it's like a loophole. Got it. They couldn't have fucking carved that out. Right. It's wild. It's wild.

So James Tate could not be held legally accountable for operating horse sex ring. All right. Instead, as I mentioned, he was charged with trespassing in the first degree. The third man present at the time of Kenneth's death was not charged with anything since he wasn't visible on the camera and they couldn't point to him in any real way. Imagine they're in court and they're like, we're charging him with trespassing.

But he was like fucking trespassing hard. I can't even explain to you to the degree he was trespassing. Yeah. Yeah.

On November 29th, 2005, James Tate entered an Alford plea. Oh. Do you remember what that is from our Shelley Notek case? Yep. Shelley Nonak. Nonak. Do you remember what an Alford plea is? It's when you plead guilty, but maintain your innocence so you can like... Yes. I'm super smart. I...

I'm not like surprised because you are super smart, but yes. Yeah. Sorry, what is it? Let's get into that. So you know how it's like in certain, like let's say movies or whatever, people, they don't want to plead guilty because then it like,

makes them appear guilty to the public. You can plead guilty to get the reduced sentence, but like you still maintain your air of innocence. Oh, got it. That's exactly what it is. So it's when they plead guilty, but they don't have to actually admit guilt. Gotcha. It also allows you to circumvent a trial. So that's why the prosecutors are into that type of a plea. Ah.

And a state because it doesn't cost anything or as much. Okay. And then the person gets to maintain their innocence but be like, you know what? There's a lot of evidence that likely would convict me. So let's just like skip the shenanigans.

I'll take a guilty plea, but for the record, I'm innocent. Got it. It's like when people order steak medium rare plus, which is like in between medium rare and medium. It's not a thing. I've never heard of that in my life. You haven't? I haven't either. I'm a restaurant worker. Well, it's a new thing. Like people will say medium rare and medium are not separate. Like they're too, like I have to have it in between. Right. I can't have it one or the other. It's like LGBTQ plus. Minus.

divided by yeah exactly i don't know i can't keep up but there's a plus in it now yeah that's my point

So the judge in the case gave James Tate a suspended one-year sentence, a $300 fine, one day of community service, and ordered him never to visit the farm again. The community service was at a petting zoo, though. Wait, suspended means he didn't have to serve it, right? Right. Okay. Wow, he got off easy. He sure did. So did the horse. Yeah.

So after Kenneth's death, a very, very graphic video circulated on the internet showing him and other men engaging in receptive anal intercourse with animals. I think I saw that. You might have. The video was nicknamed Mr. Hands and Two Guys, One Horse. And it was apparently intended really to like sexually gratify the viewer. But understandably, it instead caused a public uproar, outrage, and instantly became the internet's

one of the internet's first viral reaction videos. So it was like hot to trot. Yeah. A lot of horse puns. Yeah, it's so easy. The case received an unprecedented level of media attention when it broke, capturing the public's fascination and making headlines. In fact, the article written in the Seattle Times covering this case remains their top-selling article to this day. Wow. Wild, right? Yeah.

So with national eyes now on the topic of interspecies funny business, Washington State Senator Pam Roach, which I found funny that her last name is Roach. Oh, yeah. You know, crafted a bill to ban bestiality in Washington State. And on February 11th, 2006, Senate Bill 6417 officially made bestiality a Class C felony, making the act punishable by up to five years in prison, a $10,000 fine, and...

And that's it. I want to know, it's got to be public record. Some politicians voted against that. You'll be happy to know in this state, not one senator voted against the bill. It had a 36 to zero. Well, yeah, I mean. No, but in the state of Wyoming, I researched there was one

Which we're going to go into here. There was one politician who voted against making it illegal. I can't fuck a horse? Yeah. On a Saturday night? Come on. The bill also prohibits videotaping a person engaging in sexual activity or contact with an animal that is either alive or dead. Got to cover all the bases for the freaks. Absolutely. So in the U.S., at the time and date of this recording...

Bestiality is still legal in four states. Whoa. Pop quiz. Come on, New York. Two of the states are Wyoming, as I mentioned, right? Yeah. Well, I didn't really mention it, but we just mentioned Wyoming a little bit, and West Virginia. Okay. Sounds about right. Pop quiz. Tank was right. In addition to Wyoming and West Virginia, which other two states have not criminalized bestiality? A, New Mexico and Hawaii. B,

B, North Dakota and Utah. C, Alaska and Nebraska. Big C for me. Big C for Mark. I'm going to go A. Hawaii. Yeah. It's A. Yeah. New Mexico and Hawaii, as well as Wyoming and West Virginia. New Mexico is not giving it up and Hawaii is just slow on the bureaucratic stuff, I think. They'll get to it.

Now, regardless of the fact that bestiality is criminalized almost everywhere in the U.S., only 31.9% of bestiality-related arrests result in prosecution. So there you have it. It's like, ah, get out of here. Yeah. Right. Come on. The seriousness of the crime varies in the other 46 states. And I mean, it's obviously astounding that not all of our nation states criminalize that behavior. But I think that has a lot to do with

what is considered animal abuse. All right? I consider bestiality animal abuse because I like animals more than I like people. But some animals might want to get laid. You think? With a human? Yeah.

My dog humps my wife's leg five to six times a day. He's 10. He can barely walk, but he gets... He's like a dirty old man, Tyler. Yeah, he is. He's gross. That's a good point. I wonder if a lot of people don't get caught because when the cops show up, they just jump on the horse and ride away. They reverse positions.

But it's not even just about the violation against the animal. Bestiality is documented to being a precursor to other serious offenses, including sexual abuse of children, distribution of child abuse images, interpersonal violence, and other forms of animal cruelty. So establishing that the sexual assault...

of an animal is indeed a crime would potentially allow law enforcement to better identify potentially dangerous and violent sexual predators in general. Makes sense. Right. Now, in terms of James Tate, his extracurricular behavior did not end with the death of his friend or the new law prohibiting sex with animals in the state of Washington because he just relocated to a place where it was legal at the time, which was Tennessee. It is like a priest. They just shipped around. Exactly.

Wow. Exactly right. You just move them around. He took up residence on a farm in Tennessee. Wow.

that housed various animals, including horses, pigs, goats, and dogs. He was like Ace Ventura. He was like in his glory. I understand that. Yeah. That detective. But in 2007, Tennessee criminalized bestiality. So in 2009, when investigators received an anonymous call or an email containing a photograph of a man engaging in sexual acts with a Shetland pony on a farm,

legal action was taken again. Was it James again? It was James again. Oh,

Come on, dude. He's back in the saddle. Yes. And at this point, he faced three felony animal cruelty charges, having been involved in sexual acts with a stud horse over a period of several months. I was just about to ask what happened to the other guy, Kenneth Pinion, but he's dead. Yeah, you do that on these cases a lot. At the end of it, he'll be like, what happened? There's a lot of information, dude. Yeah, and I assume the wife is out of the picture at this point. Oh, I mean, they were, you're talking about

Well, James, yeah. No, no, you're thinking of Kenneth. He was married and then divorced before all of this happened. Got it, got it. Right, so there's two ways that we can look at zoophiles. They are lonely and damaged human beings with sexual urges that they likely wish they didn't have. Choice number one. Or number two, they are animal-abusing perverts, right? Is this a pop quiz? No. So the risk factors associated with becoming a zoophile are minimal physical and social access to a larger community,

History of childhood sexual abuse, exposure to porn containing bestiality, substance abuse, psychological traits like low self-esteem or infantile social behavior, living in rural areas, being male, low levels of education and low social attachment. I feel like you guys might be able to check a lot of things off all this. Yeah, definitely get the low self-esteem and the infantile. If you move to a farm, I'll alert the authorities. Please do. Yeah.

My dad always said, what are you raising a barn? All right. I wish.

In recent psychiatric literature, specifically a study published in the Indian Journal of Community Medicine, it's been revealed that individuals involved in bestiality generally exhibit lower levels of education, social control, and social attachment. But interestingly, none of that applied to Kenneth, which is why I really think your point is well taken about how maybe he suffered a deeper brain injury aside from like losing his ability to feel. Because otherwise he just bucked

the system all together i gotta tell you i don't know if this is speaking out of school but i i horseback rode with the wife and i think she was getting a little turned on because of the i mean the rhythmic like grinding yes it's right on the uh genitalia lady part it is it is i'm not gonna say i get it but i get it all right i appreciate it is she a zoo

I don't know, but we play horseshoes a lot. Listen to this episode with her and find out. Just bring some champagne when you listen. Press pause. Press pause. I can't take it anymore. All right. So we're going to leave off here with a final pop quiz. Okay. What are the two most popular animals that people engage in bestiality with?

A, sheep and pigs. B, horses and dogs. C, cows and goats. D, gerbils and ferrets. Oh, that's a curveball in there. No, the gerbils go up the butt, dude. Oh, right. Good point. And then they scratch their way out and it's very pleasurable, apparently. I feel like this is a trick question. Like, the most popular flavor in the world is... Do you guys know what it is? Flavor of what? Flavor in general. Strawberry? Strawberry.

What's your choice? Flavor anything? Yeah. Salt? No, pistachio. Is it? Yeah. Did you not hear me last night say that I wanted to get pistachio gelato? I did not hear you say that. Well, I did and nobody took me up on that. Yeah, it's the number one flavor in the world, much like the number one sport in the world is not football or basketball. It's soccer. There's a whole world out there. I feel like the sheep and pigs in...

is the pistachio of bestiality. Is it? I don't know. It's your flavor? That's your choice? Not my choice. I'm saying the world at large. I just meant, is that your choice for the pop quiz? Yes. Okay, good. Thank you for clearing that up. If I were to choose pigs and sheep, that's my choice. Mark? I've heard the pig vagina is the closest to the human vagina. Where'd you hear that? I'm just kidding.

It's on my Tinder bio. Looking for a pig vagina. Yeah, I've fucked a few pigs in my day. But wait a minute. So what were the other two? We got pig and sheep. That's one. Horses and dogs. Horses and dogs. Cows and goats. Gerbils and ferrets. Cows and goats.

Goat's pretty popular, I heard. But I'm going to go with the pig. You're both wrong. Horses and dogs. Jeez. We just listened to a whole case about a guy fucking horses. And then dogs are right there. I think dogs are the most convenient. Dogs are the most common animal involved in first contact, accounting for approximately 63%.

of the bestiality thesis. Horses come in second at 17%. By the way, male animals seem to be the heavily favored gender of animals with which to fornicate. Interesting. Yep. And I just wanted to present you each with a little something for making it through this horrendously gross episode. She brought gifts. What do you got, a dog bone? It's a cast of a horse dung. Yeah. Let's see what we have here. Okay, ready?

It is a handy horse. A handy horse. And in case you're not into puppets, you're going to get a horse sucker. I'll give the horse head.

Look at that. Thank you. This is fun. I'm going to eat this lollipop. Thank you, Mark, for sticking it out. Oh, it's really lovely topic I brought to you today. Fun horsing around. Yeah. Oh, my God. Sorry. These are really funny. Where did you get these? Or you just have a stockpile of them? I have a stockpile of farm animals. Amazing. Very good. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So, Mark, I mean, a case about a guy who got fucked to death by a horse. But it was if he was a zoo file animal.

and an auto assassinophile, he would be in his fucking glory, this guy. Well, then he would have met his ultimate goal. Yes, of course. Being killed and being fucked by a horse. There you go. Pretty good. You into this kind of stuff? I think this is fascinating and I wonder if this has anything to do with the movie Horse about the guy who gets fucked to death by a horse and it's all on camera. Is that a movie? That's a documentary. Give it a goog. Oh, 100%. It must be. It's called Horse. I know that

Zoo is the documentary about this case, but horse. What did you say he posted the other day about goats or something? You had something that you posted that I saw. That's right. I was just in New Zealand and they're known for fucking animals there. Yeah. And I said, anybody here fucking animal? And one guy goes, I have a farm and I fuck goats all the time. And I said, what does that feel like? And he goes, it feels kind of like a deer. Yeah.

Oh, which I thought was crazy that he just went with the other animal. Like I would know what a deer fucking is like. So we had a good time. I swear to God. That was like a crowd work segment of your. Oh, my God. He totally owned up to it. Kind of feels like a deer. Well, now I'm double lost. What are the laws in New Zealand? I guess it's pretty open because he was talking in front of a thousand people. And I said, does it kick? And he goes, I wear boots. What? A lot of farms out there in New Zealand. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

A lot of free time. Open rain. Not that everyone in New Zealand is fucking goats. Let's just be clear. Well, the other fuck goats are there until War of the Rings. Yeah. Oh, just those two. That's it. That's about it. That's how you can define New Zealand. Well, they don't have fentanyl there, so they got to do something. Oh, they don't? No, no. Are they better off? I mean, are we? Probably. Yeah. The goats, too, are having a good time. It seems. Jesus Christ. Oh, my God. Well, listen.

Mark, Norman, thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. No pun intended, horsey guy. I hope you had a good time. I hope the listeners had a good time. This was fun and informative. I had a great time. A lot of information, a lot to think about. Yes. As Billy Ray Cyrus would say, much to think about.

Such wise words. Did he say that? Yeah, he posted some weird image of himself like when Miley Cyrus was going through the whole thing and he just, it was like an old man selfie and the caption was just much to think about. It became a meme of its own because it's like, dude, stay off. Yeah, it was like 2011 or something like that. Oh, okay. So yeah, if you are still listening right now, as we like to say, thank you because I can't imagine getting through an entire episode of

this kind of stuff. I can. Yeah. No, I know. But like, what is your mental state? I feel like if you made it. It's fascinating. I feel like if you made it through this case, you deserve a little bit of recognition. 100% total gratitude. As always, we love our listeners and we really appreciate their attention span. Yeah.

But I hope we didn't make it difficult for you to keep up because this shit is so interesting. No, the dynamic storytelling and the Winston Churchill level of writing. There it is. I was fishing for that compliment. To be able to listen to it, but it's still a lot. It's a lot. It is. It is a lot. So if you're here, thank you. If you're here, leave a rating or review or subscribe or share with somebody. But maybe this is not the episode to tell people to listen to. I don't know. You want to go broadcasting around that you're listening to it. It is absolutely the episode to tell people to listen to. It might be the episode. Mark Norman's on here.

I agree. Go listen. This is fun. Thank you for having me. Thanks for coming. It's really such an honor to have you here. Thank you. Oh, come on. We'll see you guys next week. Bye, everyone. Appreciate it. Handy horse.