Introducing... Dark Poutine | The Quakers and The Killers: The Murder of Peter Lazier
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Hey, it's Alan, and today I want to introduce you to another Curious Cast podcast that I think you might like. It's called Dark Poutine. Cool name, right?

Hosted by Mike Brown, this award-winning podcast brings you stories of true crime, legends, folklore, dark history, and other creepy topics from the perspective of real, live Canadians. In this episode, Mike shares the story of Peter Lazier, who was murdered on the evening of December 21st, 1883, near Bloomfield, Ontario.

The community was deeply affected and quickly organized a search for the killers. They traced footprints in the snow, leading to Joseph Tomset and the Louder family's homes near West Lake. By the next day, Joseph Tomset and brothers David and George Louder were arrested and charged with murder. Follow along with Dark Poutine as it shares details of the legal process that left some people wondering if justice was in fact served.

This is The Quakers and the Killers, The Murder of Peter Lazier.

Welcome back to Dark Poutine. I am Mike Brown, and at his home in Vancouver is my good friend Matthew Stockton. Hello, Matthew. Hello, Mike. Hi, everybody. How are things this week? Ten out of ten, thank you. The views, information, and opinions expressed during the Dark Poutine podcast are solely those of the producer and do not necessarily represent those of CuriousCast, its affiliate global news, nor its parent company, Chorus Entertainment.

Dark poutine is not for the faint of heart or squeamish. Our content is often intense and some listeners may find it disturbing.

We're not experts on the topics we present, nor are we journalists. We are ordinary Canadian schmucks chatting about crime and the dark side of history. Let's get to it. Put on your toque, grab yourself a double-double and an enamel bar. It's time to scarf down some dark poutine. You are responsible for obtaining and maintaining at your own cost all equipment needed to listen to dark poutine. Dark poutine can be addictive. Side effects may include, but not be limited to, pausing and questioning the system, elevated heart rate, puns,

Pondering humanity. Odd looks from colleagues as you laugh out loud at work. Family members not into true crime worrying about you. Positive side effects may include some perspectives and opinions that you disagree with, as well as some wokeness and empathy. If you don't think dark poutine is for you, consult your doctor immediately.

On the evening of December 21st, 1883, near Bloomfield, Ontario, visitor Peter Lazier was murdered by two intruders at the farmhouse of Quakers Gilbert and Margaret Jones. The community, deeply affected, quickly organized a search.

They traced footprints in the snow leading to Joseph Thompson and later the Louder family's homes near West Lake. Joseph Thompson and brothers David and George Louder were arrested and charged with murder. The legal process moved rapidly. The coroner's inquest began the day after the crime, followed by formal proceedings within a week. The trial, held at the Prince Edward County Courthouse in Picton, Ontario just five months later, suggested the motive was robbery.

aimed at stealing the $555 Gilbert Jones earned from selling hops. George Lauder and Joseph Thompson were found guilty of murder and hanged in June 1884. Many felt justice was served, but others believed the law got it wrong, acting hastily without sufficient evidence. This is Dark Poutine Episode 294, The Quakers and the Killers, The Murder of Peter Lazier.

Before European settlement, Prince Edward County was inhabited by indigenous peoples from the Iroquois and Ojibwe nations. These groups were known for their complex societies forming sophisticated political and social structures. They engaged in farming, fishing, and hunting, utilizing the area's rich natural resources. They were also known for their rich cultural traditions that included storytelling, spiritual practices, and art.

The county was established in 1784 and named after Prince Edward, Duke of Kent, Queen Victoria's father. It became a refuge for United Empire loyalists fleeing the American Revolution. These early settlers formed communities along Lake Ontario's shores, laying the foundation for future growth. The War of 1812 saw Prince Edward County as a strategic location with several military actions taken to defend Upper Canada.

The 19th century marked a period of economic growth with the establishment of mills and local industries like canning and dairy production. Education, religion, and community organizations also began to take root, reflecting a growing and diverse population. Agriculture quickly became the region's economic backbone.

The fertile land of the county fostered a reputation for high-quality produce. In 1883, Prince Edward County, Ontario was a quintessentially rural and agricultural community. Dominated by the Victorian era's conservative values, reflective of Queen Victoria's influence over the British Empire, including Canada, the county's economy was largely driven, as we mentioned, by agriculture.

Farms were abundant, producing various crops and livestock with a particular emphasis on fruit orchards, particularly apples and hops. Like today, barley and hops were primarily used for brewing beer. Barley, a key ingredient in beer production, was malted to produce the sugars necessary for fermentation.

Hops, another vital ingredient, were used for flavoring and preserving the beer. They added bitterness to balance the sweetness of the malt, contributed to the beer's aroma, and had natural preservative qualities that extended the beverage's shelf life. The brewing industry was an important part of the local economy, and these crops played a crucial role in supporting it. The fishing industry in Lake Ontario also played a significant role in the local economy at the time.

The county's social fabric was characterized by a strong sense of community, heavily influenced by religious groups like the Quakers, dictating the moral and social norms. Life revolved around the churches, community halls, and agricultural events, with a close-knit atmosphere predominant in such rural settings. Everyone knew everyone.

Infrastructure-wise, the county was navigating the transition to modernity. While rail transport emerged, many areas remained accessible only via horse-drawn vehicles. Homes and businesses relied on oil lamps and wood stoves as electricity had not yet become widespread. The advent of steamships and railways in the mid-19th century enhanced trade and connectivity.

The period up to 1883 saw Prince Edward County evolve into a prosperous, peaceful community with a strong agricultural base. Politically, Canada was still a fledgling nation, having formed in 1867. Although its legal system was rooted in British law, Canada gradually forged its identity and governance structures. In rural areas like Prince Edward County, the legal system was more basic, with local magistrates often handling law and order.

Police officers, in many cases, were volunteers and untrained. The Lazier murder disrupted the county's otherwise tranquil setting in December 1883. It was a significant event that reflected broader social and legal transformations of the time.

Gilbert and Margaret Jones, whose home was in Hollowell on Danforth Road in Prince Edward County, around two kilometers west of Bloomfield, was the site of Peter Lazier's murder. They were Quakers. According to the Canadian Encyclopedia, the Religious Society of Friends, commonly known as Quakers, emerged from the turbulent religious climate of the mid-17th century of Puritan England.

George Fox, born to a weaver in Leicestershire in 1624, founded this group. The term Quaker was initially a pejorative label, stemming from Fox's call for a judge to, quote, "'tremble at the word of the Lord' during a trial." Faced with persecution in England, many Quakers migrated to the North American colonies.

Here, William Penn established Pennsylvania. By the late 17th century, Quaker missionaries known as "Publishers of the Truth" reached Newfoundland.

In the 1750s, Quaker whalers from Nantucket briefly settled in Nova Scotia. Following the American Revolution, Quaker refugees settled in various locations in present-day southern Ontario, setting up meeting houses and schools. The 1820s saw an influx of Quakers from England and Ireland, with their population in Ontario peaking at over 7,300 by 1860, then stabilizing to around 1,000 in later years. The

The early 20th century marked the founding of Quaker communities in Western Canada. Quakers are known for their unique faith, worship style, marital customs, and strong stances against slavery, capital punishment, and warfare. Historically, they were also recognized for their distinctive dress and speech forms, which persisted until the 20th century.

Canadian Quakers have been notably active in anti-war efforts, prison reform, social justice, and international aid and reconciliation. In 1947, the Society of Friends International Service Organizations received the Nobel Peace Prize for their post-World War II efforts. The Canadian Friends Service Committee has been a major force in these endeavors in Canada.

Quaker meetings and worship groups, part of a global Society of Friends network, exist in various locations nationwide. You know, to your point about social justice, Quakers, especially in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, a little bit more discrepancy amongst the U.S. Quakers from the research they did, they were actually really at the forefront in terms of Christian churches globally.

and as at the forefront as an organized religion can be, in accepting things like gay rights and family planning. Oh, interesting. I find them quite interesting. It's quite an open...

Religious group. Christian group. Yeah. There you go. Well, I mean, that dude who is supposedly the founder of that religion said love everybody regardless. There you go. Yeah. I think more people could live by that. Gilbert and Margaret had both been married before, each having their first spouse pass away. They were devout and well-known in the community as peace-loving, generous, and kind people. They embodied the Quaker way.

This may have been what led Lazier's killers to underestimate them. Perhaps thinking the religious couple would be pushovers and their robbery would be easy. It was not at all what they bargained for. On the morning of December 21, 1883, after getting his mare shod, Gilbert Jones returned home to find his farmhands loading hops for transport to the station.

Jones later traveled to Bloomfield to deliver the hops, spending several hours there as various loads were weighed and paid for. He received $555 for his hops at a storeroom near the platform amidst several people, including strangers, one of whom was later accused with a murder in his home.

After getting paid, Gilbert returned home before sundown. That same day, the weather turned colder with snow and wind picking up. In the evening, Gilbert's niece's husband, Peter Lazier, arrived to spend the night. Peter Lazier was a tall, slim, farm implement salesman with unusually white hair for his age. They ate dinner together. Afterward, Jones helped Lazier with his horse but fell and injured his back.

Peter helped Gilbert inside, where Peter then chatted with Margaret and John Wallace, a worker at the Jones farm. Gilbert retired to his bedroom, laying down to rest his sore back but couldn't sleep. Shortly after John Wallace left at around 10 p.m., Margaret showed Peter Lazier to his room, and she retired to her room to prepare for bed.

Pretty much right away there was a loud knock at the door and Mrs. Jones thought it was Wallace returning as perhaps he'd forgotten something. Placing her lamp on the table, she opened the door to find two men, one wearing a linen mask that seemed unusually tall and another man armed with a shotgun.

The masked man held a pistol and his partner wore a hat obscuring his face, making him appear shorter. The two men didn't say anything but menacingly entered the house through the open door.

One man wore dark clothes and a possible false beard. The other wore mixed grey clothes, possibly tweed, and both were without overcoats, wearing only their inside clothes with bare hands, which was unusual for the typically cold time of year. Margaret screamed in fright seeing the two men. Gilbert, still in the bedroom, thought immediately that someone had come to rob them.

Even though he was in pain, he was able to get out of bed quickly and grabbed his unloaded shotgun, frantically grabbing for shells to arm himself against the intruders. You know, when adrenaline kicks in like that, so he had a sore back, right? But when adrenaline kicks in, it's amazing what the body can do. Adrenaline kind of goes...

Uh, ignore the pain, get moving, right? Yep. I've seen lots of, uh, body cam videos lately. And, uh, you know, there's a particular chase, say, uh,

where there ends up being a shooting. So there's an extended chase and then a shooting, and the cop is even injured during the shooting. Nothing seems to affect that person until the adrenaline dumps out of his body, and then all of a sudden you have to deal with the injury, the trauma, like the whole thing. It's really fascinating that, you know, what adrenaline can do. Have you watched the TV series The Punisher? No. Okay, fair.

I started watching it because I thought the guy is super cute. He gets shot so many times in that series that my husband just and I are like joking, he's shot again! And it's exactly that. He goes through it all and then he gets to his seedy motel room and suddenly he's collapsing because he has a bullet in his bum. Remembering that Gilbert's back was injured, Margaret first made for Peter Lazier's room, but then recalled that the family shotgun was in her bedroom and

and changed direction. Unaware, Gilbert was already out of bed and trying to load the firearm.

As she fled, glancing back, Margaret saw the man with the shotgun menacingly lower his gun toward Lazier, who was emerging from his room. Meanwhile, Margaret hurried into her bedroom, locked the door behind her, and helped her husband load his shotgun. Once the gun was loaded, Margaret unlocked the door and Gilbert went out. Illuminated by the coal stove light, Gilbert emerged to find Peter Lazier grappling with a masked intruder. The

The masked man attempting to advance eventually broke free. Gilbert, standing by Peter near the sideboard, heard his wife urge him to shoot. The masked intruder, seemingly frightened by Gilbert's appearance with the shotgun, retreated to the kitchen and fired a shot. Following the intruder to the kitchen, Gilbert observed him fleeing the house with an awkward gait. Both men fled into the night, leaving tracks in the freshly fallen snow.

Upon returning inside, he discovered Peter Lazier had collapsed in the bedroom with a visible bullet wound. Gilbert, realizing the gravity of the situation, sent Margaret to seek help. She went to the Wallace home nearby to implore them to call for help.

John Wallace was the first on the scene after Peter Lazier's shooting. He quickly fetched Dr. Alan Noxon, a Bloomfield physician, who happened to be the local coroner. Noxon later discovered that Lazier had already died. Dr. Noxon was the first to notice the footprints in the snow behind the Jones house and thought they were significant.

These seemed to indicate that the intruders had been outside the Jones' house for some time, pacing back and forth by the window, perhaps waiting for John Wallace to leave. Noxon informed neighbors James and Stephen Bowerman, who then alerted Abram Saylor and his son Charles. Dr. Noxon also informed local police constable Edmund Bedell.

Soon, more neighbors gathered, and Mrs. Jones showed them the tracks by the windows and leading away from the house. They found two sets of footprints by the house, and Abram Saylor noted a bare handprint on a windowsill. He covered the tracks near the windows for preservation. Gilbert later noted that the masked man's height was comparable to his own, and the mask resembled a bag pulled over his head flapping at the shoulders as he ran.

This encounter with the masked intruder was the first and only time Gilbert saw the man and he did not recognize him. The Jones observations provided key details for identifying the assailants in Peter Lizzier's murder.

They described the taller gunman, potentially 5 feet 9 inches tall and left-handed, with an unusual gait, and the second man possibly with a real or false beard. The assailant's clothing was noted as grey, coarse and without overcoats or gloves, hinting they were local and did not have fire to travel in the snow.

The investigation mainly relied on neighbors tracking footprints in the freshly fallen snow. Constable Edmund Bedell, an untrained rural volunteer, was the first law enforcement officer to reach the crime scene. He quickly learned about the mysterious tracks in the snow and set out with a lantern to investigate.

Bedell found no tracks between the house and the road, but he did follow three sets of tracks along the road over a fence and into an orchard where he encountered Charles Saylor and Stephen Bowerman, also searching and likely the creators of two of the sets of tracks.

At some point, Aaron McDonald joined the search party. Tracking the remaining single set proved challenging, leading along a rail line and then merging with another set from a northern field. Bedell, Saylor, Bowerman, and McDonald pursued these tracks, eventually leading through marshlands and on to perilous lake ice.

Although the track was unclear in places, it appeared to lead the men to the home of Joseph Thompson, a 34-year-old fisherman. MacDonald claimed he was not surprised the tracks led them to Thompson's as he'd had previous physical altercations with Joseph and loathed the man.

Bedell knocked on the door and told Thompson, dressed in his long underwear, that he needed to answer some questions and was the suspect in a crime. Thompson asked what had happened and was told about the shooting death of Peter Lazier at the Jones residence. At that, apparently, Thompson blanched.

Bedell explained the link through the tracks from the Jones farm to Thompson's residence. Despite Thompson's denial and alibi of being at the Louder farm that evening, Bedell arrested him, intensifying the investigation into Lazier's murder.

Horacio N. Babbitt, the chief constable of Prince Edward County, later led the investigation of the murder case and arrived at the Jones farm around 3.30 a.m. He was informed about the tracker's findings and directly visited Joseph Thompson's home, arresting him and confiscating a shotgun.

Babbitt then went to John Louder's home, where he arrested David Louder based on a conversation he overheard, and despite a mismatch in boot sizes. You know, I'm really quite worried about the footprints they followed. It seems like they kind of lost them at one point. At more than one point. And yeah, you know, on the train tracks, on the frozen lake, and I'm not really convinced that...

they were necessarily following the same tracks and that it was this direct line to from the murder scene to his place. Well, yes. And especially,

These police that you're talking about were initially an untrained volunteer and somebody who resented Tom said. Yeah, exactly. And then the idea that the tracks went... Now it's established, right? Right. Which is hard to, forgive the pun, backtrack out of. Sure. Later. And they've already arrested one guy whose boots didn't even match the size. Yeah, it's a bit flimsy right now. Also, can I just...

stop and say, I think the name Horatio needs to have a comeback. I like Horatio as well. Horatio's a good name.

The next day, Babbitt found a pair of patch bottom boots near the Jones farm and had them seized, suspecting they belong to the louder family. So there's a pair of boots. I guess they must belong to the louder family. George louder was later arrested after inquiring about his boots, which were implicated in the case. So I guess George put himself there, which is odd. Give me my boots back. The,

Yeah, exactly. This made George the third suspect in the murder. According to Robert J. Sharp's book, The Lazier Murder, in the late 1800s, Prince Edward County experienced minimal serious crime. The Picton Jail, where the three men were held, mainly housed individuals for minor offenses like drunkenness, with most serving only a brief jail time. The records indicate infrequent instances of more severe crimes such as forgery, bigamy, and malicious wounding.

Common charges included vagrancy, assault, larceny, and sheep or horse theft. An 1877 survey showed the county had the province's lowest indictable offense committals. The Picton jail predominantly detained Caucasian men with rare occasions of indigenous inmates.

The county's sole execution was of a black man, Hightower, in 1837 for rape. The Lazier murder was only one of three homicides over two decades. The first, in 1860, involved the brutal killing of Abraham and Sarah Peterson. The suspect, Seth Smart, was an indigenous man and died by suicide in jail before his trial.

The second in 1880 was the murder of John Ammons with laborers Thomas Thompson and James Pearson implicated. That trial ended with Thompson being convicted of manslaughter. You know, you're reading that and I'm thinking we've done so many historical cases that the fact that a black man and an indigenous man are the two that ended up dead.

It's just so not surprising that it's sad. No. Right? No. With three suspects in hand, legal proceedings commence the day following the murder, beginning with the coroner's inquiry. More after a quick break and this short Supernatural Circumstances promotion.

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And we are back. Matthew, thoughts so far? You know, justice was really dodgy back then, wasn't it? Oh, it definitely was. You know, from a lack of, you know, there are volunteer police, you know, it was, the whole system was slowly being set up. So you had, you know, volunteer police, there was a lack of

professional policing and training. Canada wasn't even really 20 years old at this point. No, you didn't have any of the modern forensics we have now, not even fingerprints. Society at the time only allowed certain people to even be on a jury. It's on the other end of it, right? So that's the policing side and the investigation. But then on the jury side...

You have a very small pool of people that are allowed to be jurors, right? And we'll talk more about that later. And so I find so many of these historical cases so fraught with, God, you wonder how many people were jailed or

strung up that were completely innocent. Dr. Alan Noxon, as we mentioned, both the attending physician at the crime scene and the local coroner, quickly initiated a legal inquest, first at the crime scene. In the 19th century, Ontario coroners, integral to the local justice system, had a prestigious politically influenced role. They

They were tasked with investigating suspicious or unnatural deaths, including laziers. The inquest process required assembling a jury of local literate men. As the community reeled from the murder, the jury was easily convened. While inquests weren't publicly mandated, transparency was advised. Legal representation at inquests, though not a right, was commonly allowed.

The inquest into Lazier's death, therefore, involved a detailed examination of his body and the scene, emphasizing thoroughness and impartiality.

The Bloomfield Town Hall was packed with people eager to follow further proceedings. The evidence, straightforward and summarized by the local paper, The Intelligencer, depicted Peter Lazier as a brave victim of ruthless thieves. Dr. Noxon had Dr. Charles Wright and Dr. J.M. Platt conduct a post-mortem, confirming Lazier was killed by a single .32 caliber bullet that pierced his chest, lung, and heart.

The community believed the murder at the Jones farm where Lazier died was a planned robbery by Joseph Thompson and the Louder family. During the inquest, David Louder, Thompson, and George Louder were present but not directly linked to the murder at that point. According to Robert J. Sharp, Joseph Thompson was eager to talk. He said, quote,

If I had wanted money, I would not have went to Mr. Jones's. I would have went for Ward, another local farmer. I am told he had $1,000. I would not have went to Mr. Jones's. There is plenty of other places in Bloomfield that if I had wanted money, I could have went for. If I had, I would not leave any to tell the story. End quote. The jury returned a verdict of homicide by unknown parties.

and Lazier was buried on Christmas Eve, December 24, 1883. Despite the jury's verdict of unknown parties, locals continued to suspect Thompson and the Louders. Thompson's ill-advised statements, as read earlier, added to the suspicion. The atmosphere at the town hall became threatening with murmurs of lynching. Police moved the three accused to Picton Jail for safety.

The committal proceedings for the Lazier murder case began on December 28, 1883, with Police Magistrate George C. Curry and Justices Adam Saylor and John H. Allen presiding. Prominent lawyer Philip Lowe QC represented the Crown. Intense public interest led to a crowded courthouse.

The accused, George and David Louder, and Joseph Thompson, faced a formal charge of murder. All three pleaded not guilty. Concerns about impartial jury selection due to public bias were raised by the defense, but not addressed by the court.

During the proceedings, David Louder reportedly appeared calm and occasionally smiled. While Thompson initially seemed indifferent at first, but as testimony went on, he began to show keen interest in the case. George Louder was attentive to all the witnesses. Neither Gilbert nor Margaret Jones could definitively identify the accused men as being the intruders who killed Peter Lazier.

They could only say that they resembled the intruders in stature and gait, and that the man who was wearing the mask apparently seemed taller than Thompson. So...

I don't know. Very interesting. The point that you made about Thompson seeming indifferent at first and then as the testimony went on showed a keen interest. Do you think he seemed indifferent at the beginning because he was thinking, hey, I'm innocent, so I'm just going to go up here and I don't have anything to worry about. And then perhaps

Perhaps it started dawning on him, oh my God, this could be horribly wrong. They might actually find me guilty. Or maybe he wasn't just the sharpest tool in the shed and thought he was going to get away with it. Maybe. Testimodies included station master Albert Spencer confirming Thompson's presence at the station on the day of the murder, including that he might have had knowledge of the wad of $555 cash in Jones's possession.

Chief Constable Hugh MacKinnon dramatically testified about tracking footprints in the snow. The audience's reactions in favor of the Crown's position were noticeable, especially during heated exchanges between witnesses and the defense counsel.

Despite a snowstorm, the proceedings continued with more testimonies maintaining the audience's high interest. Eventually, the three accused were committed for trial, although the evidence, particularly regarding footprints and witness accounts, was not conclusive, leaving room for doubt in the prosecution's case. The trial began on May 6, 1884.

The jury was selected from a diverse pool of Prince Edward County men as women were excluded at the time due to sexist laws. Yeah. And we brought this up at the beginning of the second half. Let me add, it was only straight white men. You know, no other races were allowed to be jurors. And,

homophobic laws at the time. You and I were joking earlier. You said, like, they didn't exist. Yeah, well, yeah, homosexuality didn't exist at the time, Matthew. It did, and unfortunately, you were hanged. So they knew it existed. They just tried to kill us all off. Over two days, Crown Prosecutor Clute

called numerous witnesses who detailed their efforts to trace tracks in the snow from the murder scene to the homes of the accused. The defense lawyers, McCarthy and Dixon, skillfully challenged the evidence, suggesting discrepancies and inconsistencies. The crowd became so unruly at one point, jeering at the defendants and their attorneys that Justice Patterson had to clear the courtroom to reacquire order.

One of the trackers who'd helped lead to Thompson's home, Aaron McDonald, as we mentioned, had a violent past with Joseph Thompson. The two openly disliked each other.

McDonald, on the stand, admitted to losing the track at one point and speculated about Thompson's involvement without concrete evidence. Under intense cross-examination, McDonald's confidence wavered, culminating in a physical collapse in the courtroom. So, essentially, he fainted because he was being challenged. Why did he faint, though?

Well, maybe he realized he was saying things under oath that may or may not have been factual. Maybe he began to realize the implications that his testimony might have and that another human being or two could be hung. Hmm. Okay. Perhaps. Fainter. Or perhaps he just didn't like being challenged. I don't know. Fainter. Yeah, well, okay. Well,

Witness Alfred Hicks testified about Thompson's visit to his house on the night of the murder, contradicting other descriptions of the intruder in the Jones home. Delia Hicks, Alfred's wife, noted discrepancies in Thompson's attire at the time of his visit, creating ambiguities about his whereabouts. Testimonies about footprints and time discrepancies due to unsynchronized watches added to the confusion.

During cross-examination, Alfred Hicks said Thompson appeared normal, but acknowledged differing opinions about his poor character and mentioned he'd committed minor thefts. The defense lawyer, McCarthy, tried to downplay these negatives.

Abram Saylor and others testified about finding boots at the Lauder House linked to Thompson that seemed to match the tracks. A Bloomfield schoolboy found parts of a .32 caliber pistol in the river after the thaw in April, the month before the trial.

The location of the pistol parts, however, didn't match the route that the accused had allegedly taken on the night of the murder, so it was unclear if it was the murder weapon. William Peters testified about Thompson showing him a similar pistol during a train ride before the murder and that Thompson had behaved aggressively towards a dog.

Strangely, the defense did not contest this testimony's relevance. The court was shocked by surprising evidence against Thompson presented by the prosecutor, Clute. A witness came forward claiming that they had overheard Thompson discussing the plan to rob a wealthy man named Jones and more testimony about Thompson's detailed plans for the crime.

Despite the defense attorney McCarthy's efforts to challenge this evidence and suggest it was prompted or rehearsed, the impact on the court was significant. The testimony caused more emotional reactions in the courtroom, with Thompson's sister and wife fainting during the proceedings. Further evidence placed Thompson at the crime scene,

complicating McCarthy's defense strategy. God, this courtroom was filled with drama queens fainting. Right, everybody's just like... The melodrama. Having a bit of a swoon. Well, I guess it was Victorian times and they needed fainting couches for a reason. Guess those corsets are too tight. Must be. I don't know. They had the vapors. Supposedly women fainted when men first started wearing top hats.

Oh no. That's what I read once. I'm like laughing my ass off. Good Lord. Witnesses Sanford White and his son, George testified seeing a fast moving horse drawn sled the night of the murder, but could not provide details about the vehicle or its occupants. This evidence suggested a connection to the crime scene, but also raised questions such as the lack of sleigh tracks or footprints at the Jones farmhouse and why the alleged murderers would later abandon a sleigh.

As the prosecution's case concluded, the defense argued for acquittal due to insufficient evidence, especially against David Lauder.

The judge decided to acquit David, noting the lack of evidence linking him to the crime, but decided that there was enough evidence against George Lauder to leave the decision to the jury. David Lauder was released, while George Lauder and Joseph Thompson remained as their defense began the next day. According to Sharp, in the late 19th century, accused persons in criminal trials like Thompson and Lauder

were not allowed to testify in their own defense due to concerns about the reliability of their testimony. This practice was based on the belief that personal interest would prevent the accused from being truthful and was meant to protect them from self-incrimination and support the community's interest in convicting the guilty. However, this rule deprived the jury of vital information and was criticized for being unfair to the accused.

And that's what I mean about the dodginess of justice back then. Imagine you're accused of murder and you're not allowed to go on the stand to defend yourself. That's some Kafkaesque absurdity right there. Yeah.

there. It's really weird. It's like, Mike, you're accused of murder. You're in trouble. Nope. Nope. Can't hear from you. It's really interesting whether or not someone testifies should be their choice, which is the way it is today. However, you know, it's crazy that it was just like, nope, you can't do it. You can't get on the stand and say, I did not do this. And one of the reasons they say is that personal interest would prevent the accused from being truthful. Well,

What about everybody else on the stand with personal interests, right? What about personal interest in the fact the truth is that you didn't do that? Yeah, exactly. So, um, it's... Bizarre. The defense presented witnesses, including family members, to establish that Thompson and Lauder were at the Lauder residence on the night of the crime. They emphasized details like the commonality of patch-bottom boots and the widespread use of .32 caliber revolvers to discredit evidence linking their clients to the murder.

They also challenged the credibility of a key witness, Margaret Jones, by highlighting discrepancies in her descriptions of the assailant's heights. Margaret Louder, the mother of George Louder, testified in his alibi defense. She claimed George was at home the night of the murder, involved in activities like drawing saw logs and feeding horses. However, her timeline was questioned, particularly about when George and a guest, Thompson, left the house.

Under cross-examination, inconsistencies emerged, such as the unusual late feeding of the horses and varying time accounts. Despite suggestions that an investigator might have misled her, McKinnon, she insisted George was home all night. The defense highlighted her distress and potential confusion to explain discrepancies in her testimony.

John Louder, rumored by townsfolk to be complicit in Lazier's murder, testified in his son George's defense, detailing his activities on the day of the murder. George, he said, worked in the fishing business and was setting nets on the day in question. Louder Sr. claimed George returned home for supper and later went out. Upon returning, he had supper with his family in Tompsett, who left later.

John Louder also described his interactions with the investigators who searched his house and followed tracks he believed were his own from the previous day. He mentioned that four family members, including himself and George, wore the same size boots. During cross-examination, Louder denied making certain statements about Thompson's departure time and was unsure about some details.

After more testimony from other Louders, including David, giving timelines and alibis, the defense closed their case. The defense sought acquittal for George Louder, arguing only one person was at the crime scene during the fatal shooting. However, the argument was weak and shared criminal intent makes co-conspirators responsible for each other's actions. The Crown contended Louder had attacked the victim before fleeing just before the shooting.

Justice Patterson ruled that the evidence suggested that the assailant's actions aligned with their common criminal purpose, warranting jury deliberation. In his closing, Crown Prosecutor Clute's effort to prove the seized boots belonged to George Lauder was rejected by Justice Patterson, as it didn't qualify as valid rebuttal evidence. Despite this, witnesses testified that George was at home on the night of the crime after briefly going to the barn.

Defense attorney McCarthy suggested Investigator McKinnon had muddied the waters and had influenced these testimonies. Inconsistencies in witness statements about McKinnon's interrogation tactics were exposed. Frank McDonald's testimony implied McKinnon's involvement in shaping evidence.

Christopher Louder, recalled by the defense, contradicted earlier testimonies about the night's events. Much was made about the fact that George Louder's boots did not seem to match one of the sets of tracks, but it didn't seem to matter much. The courtroom atmosphere was biased against the defense, leading to a warning from the judge about potential disruptions.

The day ended with local media casting doubt on the defense's case. And they were right. The cards were stacked against the accused. The jury quickly found the accused guilty with a recommendation for mercy, surprising many with their swift decision. Justice Patterson, however, sentenced Joseph Thompson and George Lauder to death by hanging on June 10, 1884, only a month later.

Despite the jury's suggestion of mercy, both men maintained they're innocent, with Thompson expressing readiness to face his fate and Lauder preferring death over life imprisonment. Due to an earlier than expected verdict, the smaller courtroom audience witnessed...

this grim conclusion to the case. Following the sentencing, reports indicated the men spent a troubled night in jail, realizing the severity of their situation. So even though the murder happened in their home to a member of their extended family, as Quakers, Margaret and Gilbert Jones did not want to see Thompson and Louder hanged. Despite pleas for clemency, denied by then Prime Minister Sir John A. Macdonald—we've all heard of that guy—

Joseph Thompson, 34, and George Lauder, 23, went to the gallows as scheduled. 23 and 34, so young. Young, young men. I'm sitting here thinking how odd it is that when Canada, when we didn't have more professional policing, forensics, cameras, when we didn't allow vast swathes of people to be on juries,

when we didn't allow people to take the stand in their own defense, that's when we allowed state-sanctioned first-degree murder. Right. That's what I call...

Execution, yeah. But now, generally speaking, you know, we still have a ways to go. We're much better at that, but we don't allow it. It's, it's. Even though now we could sometimes more definitively prove that you're guilty of the crime, we don't kill you for it. Yeah. Yeah, it's really weird. Don't get me wrong. I'm not for capital punishment in any way, but I'm all for locking people up for a good long time. Mm.

Today, Bloomfield, Ontario, near the place where the Jones family lived, is a charming village in Prince Edward County, known for its historic charm and vibrant art scene. It features a main street lined with artisan shops, antique stores, and galleries attracting tourists.

The village is close to renowned wineries and offers a diverse culinary scene. Outdoor activities include hiking, biking, and birdwatching at the nearby Sandbanks Provincial Park.

Bloomfield hosts numerous cultural events and festivals, and its 19th century architecture adds to its allure. It's increasingly sought after in the real estate market for its peaceful rural lifestyle and strong community spirit, with agriculture being a key part of the local economy. And we want to thank Yumber Yarder Becky Maves for suggesting this interesting historical case.

Thanks, Bex. There's that stone that somebody created louder hanged in 1884 unjustly. Do you think that the law got it right in this case?

Who knows? Right? Honestly, I don't know. I don't know. Even with the evidence presented, it doesn't seem like they did because there were so many holes in the prosecution's case. It was just like popular opinion was these people did it, so let's string them up. They weren't found guilty because there was enough evidence. Unlike now where there seems to be more opportunities to find evidence

more evidence forensic evidence lots of other things that it sort of pushed asadi into um being happy with just making a decision yeah you know what i mean like yeah i wonder what sort of unsaid pressures there there are in uh trying to get to justice does that does that question make sense

Can you elaborate a little bit? Well, the idea of, you know, back then they didn't have forensics. They didn't have all these things. So they kind of go, well, if we kind of were that strict about it, we would never get anybody. That's true. Right? That's true. And, you know, the public is bang for justice. So we have to serve it.

Gotcha. Even if it's unjust, right? Interesting. Yeah, that's an interesting take. Anyway, that's it for Dark Poutine episode 294, The Quakers and the Killers, The Murder of Peter Lazier. It's all a little sketchy to me. It is. That's right. It's time for voicemails.

you can leave us a message at 1-877-327-5786 or 1-877-DARK-PTN. We'd love to hear from you. Let's see who called us this week. And we've got a couple of voicemails this week. Let's listen to the first one. Hello, Mark and Mike. Uh...

No, I won't go shaking my hat. It's Robert here. I don't know if you remember. The Quebecer with a lovely Quebec accent. I just wanted to add my two cents about the Leo Major episode.

First, let's do a little bit on my background. I'm Afro-Romanian. My father came here in the 1980s. My mom always worked for the federal government and I've always been a fervent federalist here in Quebec. Like I said, just a little background in my two cents.

During World War II, World War II was pretty much a free-for-all. Everybody was getting killed. Everybody was killing everybody, especially during Normandy. The French were being ostracized. It's a little bit like the black regiment of the United States. They had little equipment,

They had little hope. So it would be a little bit normal that when Leo Major comes back with a German artillery equipment, that he hopes that that equipment will be transferred straight to a French regiment because they had a bulldozer after all.

Bulldozer while most English regiment had tanks. Like I said, I never want Quebec to leave Canada, that's for sure. And I'd like to stay within that big community that is the second biggest country in the planet. But yeah, historically there's been problems between French and English.

That explains a lot regarding the past. So... Yeah. That's just my two cents. So you two have a good day. And... Have a shit in your hat. If you want. Have a good day. So...

Fantastic. That was an interesting take on that. And that's kind of what I was driving at in the episode. Yeah, he's supporting what you said to me in the episode because I was like, oh my God, isn't that like sort of, you know, you should follow orders. And you're like, they were probably being taken the piss out of all the time. You didn't say that, but that's how I remember it, right? Yeah. That sort of a little bit of like...

fighting a monk internally, right? Yeah. Which, you know, in the end, probably still, despite that, I think that when you're in a wartime that...

you're all brothers in arms and it probably, hopefully wasn't too extreme, but, uh, yeah, no, that's, that's, that's a good part, good part to, uh, a good thing to hear. Um, and I always say that, uh, frankly, Quebec adds some interest in spice to this, this country. It definitely does. And I never want them to leave either. Uh,

I've hammered on about it numerous times, but if you ever have the chance to go to Quebec City, it is beautiful. Old Quebec City is gorgeous. And the history there, like I stepped out of the car and I felt as though I was in Paris all of a sudden. It is so strange. You've not been to Montreal yet and you and I have got to do it. Last summer when I was in Montreal, there is

like the streets were filled with people. There was like, you just, an energy you do not get in Vancouver. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's fantastic. Anyway, thank you for that call. And I do remember him calling, um, me too. God, like year and a half, two years ago. It's been a while. It's been a while. So thank you for calling and,

And adding to that, your two cents worth was actually very good input. It was worth at least a quarter. Yeah. All right, let's move on to our next. Hi, Mike and Matthew. My name is Crystal, and I'm calling from Pembroke, Ontario.

I'm a member of the Anishinaabe Nation here, the Algonquins of Pekwaxakon First Nation. And I just am calling because I've always wanted to. I missed the call out to wish you a happy anniversary, so I'll say that now. Congratulations on offering so much of yourselves in such a unique way.

beautiful, generous way. I was turned on to your podcast pre-Matthew and my brother-in-law recommended it at the outset of the pandemic and I caught up. And Matthew, I think you are the exact thing that this podcast needed to make it legendary in the way that it has become. Since becoming a fan, I've

I introduced it to my own teenage daughter who's 17 on long car trips this summer while I was working in Thunder Bay and other remote communities. So lots of car rides up and down the province.

And I've shared it with my brother who's out in Vancouver, closer to you guys, who is quite a bit younger than me. And growing up, that was something that we bonded over was Max Haynes stories every week in the paper and sharing, sharing links and things like that. And so of course, I've shared this podcast with him. So if you're listening to Josh, hey, what's up? And

And again, just thanking you both so much. I'm a member of the Umber Yard and I just really appreciate everything you both do, the kindness you bring. And, you know, I've got so many complimentary things to say, but your innovation and your generosity to create space for people to think outside of maybe their typical avenues and

It's just incredible what you've done. And I hope that there is much, much more to come. So to me, uh, that's thank you. And go shit in your hat. She made me cry, Matthew. Uh, yeah, sorry. That was very touching because, um, you know, Mike, um, there's you, especially, but that means that, you know, a lot of work goes into this and, um,

And I, for me personally, then I'll let you speak. I want to get it right. And it's this really weird thing that I never thought I would be in a position like this where we have people out there that listen to us regularly. And I want it more for them than you, Mike. I want to do a good job.

Of course. That's what they are who I do it for. But when you, and you've, you know, I've seen this, like, I've seen, like, actual celebrities, not us, like, actual actors or people that talk about, you know, wanting to, you know, respecting fans or people that view their movies or whatever, and

Until, like, I'm in this situation, I didn't realize how true that really can be. You know? Yeah. Yep. Yep. Anyway, you were getting teary there, were you? Yes. Yeah. I just, yeah. She said so many nice things, and I really appreciate that what the intent is for these stories is coming across to people. That's really important. Can I?

Can I, so hi to her brother as well. Thank you, Crystal. And can I do like a request for people? I want to hear some First Nations languages, ways of saying oh shit in your hat. That's a good one.

That would be amazing. I really want to learn this. If I learn any First Nations language, I want to learn it with that line. Yeah, so if you speak a different First Nation, for example, Mi'kmaq, I don't know what go shit in your hat sounds like.

in Mi'kmaq because, uh, that's where I'm from. So I would love to hear that kind of thing. It would be amazing. It'd be amazing. Like some, some Coast Salish go shit in your hat kind of thing. You know, you know what? My friend Rocky's mom actually, uh,

teaches the language, her language on the island, I'm going to actually write to Rocky and ask him to ask his mom. Yeah, to call in and say, go shit in your hat. Anyway, that was great. Thank you to our voicemail voice people who called in. Oh, no. Voice people. Oh, boy. Wrong now, dude. Yeah, whatever.

That's it for this week's voicemails. Again, you can leave us one at 1-877-327-5786 or 1-877-DARK-PTN. We'd love to hear from you, even if it is just to say hi and to tell us to go shit in our hats.

If you're stumped for what to chat with us about, a quick story is welcome. Well, there you go. It just occurred to me that that little bit right there is pre-recorded. I thought you said it all the time when we did this. No. Ah!

Yeah, there's like four or five little pre-recorded things. Obviously, our intro is pre-recorded. But all this time, I thought you actually said that one. Well, I did for the longest time, and then I realized, wait a minute, I can actually just record this, and I don't have to say it every week. And I don't keep the camera on to look at you, because I don't need to see you when we do this, so I just pictured you sitting there reading it. Oh, you should see what I have this week. What do you have this week?

I'm going to turn on my camera so you can see. Just a sec. I have a Carl Herring house coat that I bought at Urban. Keith. Keith Herring. I'm thinking Carl Urban. I have a Keith Herring house coat that I bought with all of his little characters on it. I love this guy's art. I've always loved his art. You know, he...

The last couple of years, I think something happened with somebody decided to free up his art and get it out there because I've seen more and more Keith Haring stuff in the last couple of years than I have in a long time. Yeah, this is licensed. It wasn't just like some, yeah. Have you seen that Grace Jones video where he paints the dress? No. And she goes up in the air and it's like this massive dress.

And then she shoots herself in the head. Oh, boy. Yeah. Wow. It's a... The 80s were crazy. They really were. I actually saw... So yesterday, we watched James Bond film, the one with Grace Jones in it.

Oh, there you go. I love her so much. I love her so much. She's like a total icon to me. Yeah. But yeah, so try to see that video. Ladies and gentlemen, here's Grace. It's that video. And Keith Haring's actually in it. She wants you to back up to her bumper, apparently. Pull up to my bumper, baby. In your long black limousine. Oh, dear.

There's no innuendo there at all. Pull up to him above, drive it in between. Oh boy. Shall we, shall we leave the, the, leave everyone with that with Matthew badly singing Grace Jones. Yes. Badly singing Grace Jones. We don't have any PayPal donors or donut money donors this week, but that's okay. Uh,

It's really expensive to live right now, so we kind of understand that. Like, I'm looking at... I bought a tub of margarine the other day, and it was more than $10 for a tub of margarine. So, we get it. So, shop at No Frills and then give us the leftover. Exactly. So, Mike will go hungry. So...

So you guys can have more free content. Oh, well. I'm going to do the save the animals. Then I'm going to do an ad with me petting Steve. Steve needs his chew sticks. Yeah, he needs chew sticks. Anyway. Yeah, it's a weird time. Hopefully it'll be over soon.

Yeah, hopefully the bad time will be over soon. The storm will happen. Whatever that storm looks like, it will be short. And then everybody can get back to being nice to each other. Because I'm so tired of all the anger. Well, I love you, Mike. And I love our listeners. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, ditto.

Ditto, dude. Thanks to all our patrons and Donut Money donors past and present for your generosity. It helps to keep the show going. You can become a patron of Dark Poutine at patreon.com slash dark poutine. For a one-time donation, you can send us Donut Money via PayPal using our email address darkpoutinepodcast at gmail.com.

If you don't already subscribe to the show, it would mean a lot if you did. You can easily find Dark Poutine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. If you haven't gotten yours yet, my book, Murder, Madness, and Mayhem, is available to order via a link on the Dark Poutine website. And speaking of darkpoutine.com, please check it out for show notes and other cool stuff. We'd appreciate it if you took the time to give Dark Poutine a like or a follow on Facebook and Instagram.

Most importantly, thank you for listening. And tell your friends about us. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. All there you go. And that is it for Dark Poutine. And more importantly than ever on this planet, please, please don't forget to be a good egg and not a bad apple.

We need to counter the bad apples with good eggs. Yeah, there are actually more good eggs than bad apples. The bad apples are just really vocal right now. So let's put the bad apples in the bin. Let's be vocal good eggs.