more than a character, a talk with rainn wilson [video]
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I am so honored to be bringing this guest to you today because I am such a big fan of everything that this man does. Okay, yeah, I have butterflies in my stomach. Don't make a big deal out of it. Okay, sure, maybe I have a little bit of butterflies. Sorry, this is a big deal for me. Today we have Rainn Wilson. I mean, I'm just so excited. I am just so excited.

You know who Rainn Wilson is, but just in case you don't, Rainn Wilson is an Emmy-nominated actor, producer, and writer best known for his role as Dwight Schrute in the U.S. version of The Office. I, as we all are, am a huge fan of The Office. It's like everybody has their favorite comfy show, you know? And I would say for 90% of America, it's The Office. I'm a part of that 90%.

I remember watching it during class in high school and I've been watching it ever since. Rain does a lot. Rain is a busy guy, okay? He's co-founder of the media company Soul Pancake, which specializes in the human experience and creating positive social change. He also is a podcaster. His podcast is called Metaphysical Milkshake. On the podcast, he sets out to answer life's biggest questions. But wait.

There's more. Coming in April, he has another podcast coming out called Soul Boom that's all about spirituality because Rain is a very spiritual guy. He hosts a TV series called The Geography of Bliss where he explores the happiest communities in the world. I could list all of the incredible things that he does all day.

but I'll finish it off with his book, Soul Boom, Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution. It's a book basically about how spirituality could help heal the world. That's also available as an audio book on Spotify if you want to go listen. I feel like Rain and I have a lot in common on a personal level. I don't know him personally, though. So it's like, why am I saying that I think we have a lot in common? Well, I've seen him talk a lot about

anxiety, spirituality, two things that are very relevant in my personal life. I think they're relevant in a lot of our lives, but I'm very anxious. And because of that, I've become very spiritual to try to cope with it. So let's bring in Rainn Wilson, the iconic, the incredible, the genius, Rainn Wilson. Here he is. This episode is brought to you by Walmart.

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Try opening moves on the new Bumble. Download Bumble now. We have to set the foundation here. Who were you as a child? Wow. What was your vibe as a child? That's funny. I pay my therapist, you know, quite a lot. But we're jumping right in. I love it. Okay. I know. Here we're going. We're going right to the childhood.

So how deep do you want to go? Do you want to do medium deep? No, I will go as deep as you want to go. I can go the deepest. I can handle it. I can go deeper than you. That's what she said. And that's not what we're talking about here. No, that's not today's topic. We want to go... Okay. But we can go real deep. So as a child child, I'm a year and a half, two years old. And my mom...

And my dad split up. My mom takes off and I go with my dad. So what does my dad do? He packed up me and moved to Nicaragua. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah. Whoa. Drink that in America. Whoa. Emma Chamberlain. Is that your name? That's your name, right? Long last name. Fan base. Yes. Yes.

Eat that up. Eat it up. Digest that. Yes. So here I am. I'm like a big, ungainly toddler with a giant head and a pasty torso tottering around literally the jungles of Nicaragua. Whoa. Where I spoke, as a child, I spoke fluent Spanish, and I was running around on the muddy, jungly, monkey-strewn streets of Bluefields, Nicaragua.

For reals. For reals? Yeah. For how long were you there? About two years, two and a half years or so. And when I was five, five and a half, we moved back to the Pacific Northwest and I started kindergarten in Olympia, Washington.

And my dad had gotten remarried when we were down in Nicaragua to my stepmom. And so it was a weird, it was already a weird childhood. Unsettling because you don't, you got ripped out of what you were comfortable with, got...

taken to a completely new environment. Now you're back in the old environment. Like it's a lot for the nervous system. I can imagine. The mom leaves and then there's a new mom. Yep. And you're also in a jungle by the way. You're also like preternaturally nerdy. Yep. And so then I'm back in Olympia, Washington as this nerdy kid who doesn't even know, like I didn't, I wasn't very well socialized. It was like I was raised by like,

capuchin white-faced monkeys. Yeah, yeah. And so I didn't know like the social rules of being a human being in suburbia. Yep. Then we were also very poor. Now, when you say poor, there's a spectrum, right? Totally, yeah. I had meals, okay? Yep, yep. We had a car. Yep. It was a used Edsel, which is like this weird car. But we were, I got my clothes at Salvation Army. I mean, we were in like a

900 square foot house in Olympia. And I think my dad was making like, I'm not kidding you, I think he was making like $9,000 a year or something like that. So that's a little backdrop. And then we get into the super nerd stuff come like junior high, high school. Okay, so you consider yourself a nerd. You were a nerd.

Bro. Bro. Let's get real about this. Get real about the nerds. I always read these articles and you're like, Charlize Theron was like, I was so nerdy in high school. It's like, fuck you. Yeah.

Yeah. You, come on. Yeah. Give me a break. Did you play D&D every weekend? I was about to say. I was about to say. Were you on the chess team? Were you on the chess team, Charlize? Yeah. Were you on Model United Nations? Yeah. Did you play the bassoon? Yeah. No. Like, no, no, and no. People are calling themselves nerds because they wore glasses. Yeah. And they actually didn't even need them. Or they read Harry Potter books. Once. Once. Like, actually, no, watched a movie. Let's be honest. Watched the movie. Read half the book. Yeah. Then watched the movie when it came out. Yeah. Yeah.

So you were like full nerd? Full on. Do you feel like... Pimples. Oh, that too. I had that too. I wasn't a full nerd. I had bacne. Me too. You had bacne? Oh, yeah. I didn't know women could get bacne. Oh, can they? Full bacne. I used to pop it in class and reach back and pop it. Just like into my shirt. It was disgusting, which would only make it worse, of course, because now pimple juice is rubbing over all the pores. Oh, it's terrible. Making more pimple. It's horrible.

Okay, so were you a happy kid? Here's the deal. I did my best. Yep. I wasn't suicidal and depressed. That's great.

Every day was an adventure. But on top of this, and it's important to note too, when my dad and stepmom got married down in Nicaragua, when I was writing, I wrote a book about my life called The Bassoon King. That's a comedic memoir. And I asked them, I was like, when did you, because they got a divorce the second I went away to college.

Like literally went to college in September. In October, they told me they were getting a divorce. Yep. And I said, like, when did you know that marrying the other was a mistake? And both of them said within six months. So I'm three, three and a half. They get married. They knew. And then they stayed together till I was 18, 18 and a half. So.

15 years of a really unhappy marriage. But they, I don't know, they stayed together for religious reasons or to raise me thinking that it would help me. I remember being a kid, being 11, 12 years old, kind of in my head going, God, I wish they'd get a divorce. Totally. Because they would have been, I'm really not a fan of divorce. Who is? But at the same time, like, don't do it for the kids. Because you pick up on...

This... The energy. Lovelessness vibe that's going around in the household. And it was this colossal mindfuck because I...

On a number of different levels. Like, because we seem to be a quirky, albeit quirky family, but kind of a normal family. Like, we would sit and we would watch MASH on TV. And we would have meatloaf. Yep. You know, for dinner. Yep. And we would walk the dog. Yep. And we had a little garden in the backyard. So it seemed kind of normal-ish. But there was just this disconnection. Like, they never hugged or they didn't. Mm.

laugh together and loved together. So there's this like, then it makes me feel even more like an alien. Absolutely. Do you feel like it impacted your beliefs on love as a young adult? Like when you started, let's say, dating for the first time? Because my parents are divorced and they have actually a great friendship, which is amazing. Oh, that's great. So I'm very fortunate in that way.

And I constantly am checking in on myself. Like, how did that impact, you know, the way that I romantically love? Like, you know, and it's I don't quite know. Like, I have my hypotheses, but I'm not certain. Are you certain on how it impacted you? Are you kind of unsure? Or maybe it didn't impact you at all? No, there was definitely an impact there. I mean, I will say this. So.

My dad, before he passed away, was on his fourth wife. My mom, my natural mom is, I think it's husband five.

And then my stepmom also got remarried. So there was just a lot of like, you know. Yeah. When my father died, I had three moms. I had my birth mother, my stepmom who raised me, and then my dad's widow. Yeah. Who I'm also very close to. And I'm close to all of them. Wow. But Rainhead Three Mommies is kind of the motto. So my wife and I have been together for 32 years. Wow. And-

we've had some struggles. We've had a lot of ups and downs, and I don't want to paint any kind of picture like it's, oh, it's just been this super rosy,

But I do think there was a response to all of that chaos in the home to try my best fitfully and not with great success to have a solid relationship to build on in a family. But in that sense, I'm grateful for that because we have a great marriage and I'm really happy to...

Be with her. Tomorrow's her birthday. Happy birthday, wifey. That's amazing. Is there some swag I can give her here? Oh, yeah. We'll give you so much. Have the lamp. Okay. That's easy. But at least put my name on the tag when you give it to her. Sorry. Okay, yeah. It's fine. No, it's totally cool. I'll send her something myself. But, yeah, so... Yeah, I made lots of mistakes dating and whatnot, but I guess...

Maybe just really wanting some kind of like long-term commitment. Yep. Like have a long-term relationship and, you know.

Well, it could go one of two ways, right? I feel like some people probably, you know, maybe have a turbulent love that they're watching as they're... If you become accustomed to anxiety and chaos as a child, then you seek out anxiety and chaos in your relationships as an adult. Absolutely. Because that feels normal. Absolutely. You know? And I know lots of people that had chaos and anxiety, even depression, you know, as a kid in their home life. And then, you know, when a...

stable, calm, peaceful, and meaningful relationship is presented to them, they're like,

No, not feeling it. Totally. And then they date the person that's going to give them all of that fireworks that they were used to. It is kind of a blessing to crave the stable option as a response to, you know, the experience. So let's go back to you in high school. What were you interested in? What were your hobbies? What were your favorite subjects in school? Like, what did you love?

Well, I had two phases to my high school life. So I will say that junior year and the first two years of high school, I was in suburban Seattle. And that's when I was in super nerd mode. Super nerd mode. And, you know, played the bassoon in orchestra. I played the xylophone.

In marching bands. Niche instruments only for you. Only niche instruments, yeah. None of that saxophone crap. No, ew, cringe. And then we had a marching band. We were the Highlanders, so we wore Scottish kilts. Whoa. So I was in a xylophone in a kilt walking down the street. There's something very Seattle about that. Yeah, it is very Seattle.

Did you ever see that show Freaks and Geeks? Classic show from the early 2000s? Somebody showed me one episode of it and I never saw it anymore. That was so my life. And I love that show. Love that show. Yeah, Model United Nations, chess team, a computer club, debate club. Just, I loved the nerdy pursuits. I frantically read science fiction novels. Uh-huh. And I've kept most of them. Okay.

They were stored in my parents' basement in boxes. So I have them in my house. I have hundreds of 1970s, like crazy with like space girls with laser guns and big boobs on the cover. Yes. You know, people fighting saber tooth tigers. Obviously. My dad wrote...

science fiction books on the side of whatever else he was doing. So all through my childhood, he was like feverishly writing science fiction books. He's an artist, it sounds like. He can't avoid it. Yeah, he was a painter and a science fiction book writer, but he had to provide for the family, so he worked at a sewer construction company. So it was this weird combination of like super blue-collar

And I lived in a blue collar neighborhood and my friend's dads were insurance salesmen and fishermen and, uh, and, and loggers and plumbers. And, uh, but then they had this weird artsy thing. So, and then to top it all off my parents, I grew up a member of the Baha'i faith. So that was a weird thing too, just to like,

then you're like your religion doesn't even match what everyone else is. Everyone else is Protestants. And so we were Baha'is. So I felt very alienated on a number of different levels. You know, like some kids grow up

around a religion, right? And it isn't really theirs, if that makes sense. Like, they don't really adopt it. It doesn't become a part of their personal life. Maybe it is a part of their family life, but it's not a part of their personal life. Were you religious? I went all in. You were all in? I was all in. Tell me a little bit about that. Also, I'm not familiar with the Baha'i faith. No. So please enlighten me. Yeah, so super nutshell version, Baha'is believe that there's only one God and that...

All the religions of the world are essentially one religion because they're all different chapters in a book, but they're all coming from the same source, which is God. So Buddhism and the Buddha are divine. Christianity and Jesus are divine. It sounds incredibly inclusive and positive. Very inclusive, positive. Muhammad and the Quran are divine. So we, as a Baha'i, we grew up reading all these different holy books and, you know, Baha'is want

love and unity and harmony and all of that stuff. So there's, you know, a lot of that kind of work. And it was great growing up in the 70s as a Baha'i because it was also, you know, it was very diverse. Like it wasn't... Baha'is are very much about elimination of racial prejudice and racial differences. So...

I went to Baha'i gatherings. It was black Baha'is, white Baha'is, Hispanic Baha'is, indigenous Baha'is, like all singing and Kumbaya. It was like... That's amazing. Yeah, it was very Kumbaya. And I went all in on that. And...

It brought me a lot, actually. You know, we would go to these retreats, like summer school, winter school. We'd have, you know, and I'd see other, like, nerdy Baha'i kids. And we'd be like, yay, we're Baha'is. And, you know, we'd always be the only Baha'i at our school. Yep. And, you know, be able to bond about that and stuff like that. So I left the Baha'i faith and all religion hardcore for at least...

13, 14 years as an adult. So that's a whole other chapter. But that was my nerd chapter. Okay, so you were... I mean, but it sounds like...

Did you have friends? I had some friends. Were you like... I had a little posse. I have a big group or were you like, I have one best friend? My vibe was always one best friend at a time. Yeah. I would pop around in a group, but I would always have one. Who was your best friend? I've had many. Okay. So it was like a revolving door of best friends? Kind of. Yeah. Which sounds toxic and it probably... Do a lot of them, now that you're like...

Big cheese and whatever it is that you do. They probably think it's so bizarre. Yeah. I think for like the Seattle contingent, I think they're like, what the, that guy? Totally. The bassoon playing guy? No, they think that about me too. He's the celebrity? Like that weird guy? What the hell is going on? Yeah, but now they're a huge fan and they don't know what to do. So, but you were like, were you outgoing?

No, no, I was very, uh, I was very, uh, shy and self-conscious and very low self-esteem. Were you funny? I was funny. Okay. Yeah. There you go. So I had the funny would come out. Yes. And I learned rapidly, like, you know, like even bullies would be like, kind of like, Hey, rain, rain, go away. Hey, asshole. And they're like ready to like, like kind of mix it up or whatever. Like rain, rain, go away is not nearly mean enough.

for a bully they need that that's level one you're like i'm gonna stop you're taking away from my trauma but that's like that's hey i got it almost every day they were a little scared of you i think that they weren't going that hard because they were like we're a little scared of him it got a little harder here and there but you're right it was but it was a gentler time you know it was the 70s i was gonna say like i think it i think it was yeah like do you think it was

Yes and no. So I think that the bullying wasn't as toxic, but it was more pervasive.

Sure. It just happened. Everyone got teased. Everyone got bullied. Everyone got pushed around. Everyone scrapped. You were supposed to just tolerate bullying. Yeah. And it was just like, you know, I would complain. Like, they're picking on me. And my parents would be like, and teachers would be like, yeah, that's how the world is. So get used to it. Learn how to survive with that. Really? But there wasn't any, like, parent-teacher conferences of, like,

So, Ricky, you've been bullying Rain. How do we work this out? That's crazy. It's the teachers going, okay, you two. They're like, pulling him apart and like, get back to class. Okay, everybody. Nothing to see here. Yeah. Get going. Do you feel like being bullied, do you feel like it

helped you develop your humor? I think a lot of comedy comes out of pain and a lot of comedy comes out of as a kind of a coping mechanism. And Arthur Brooks actually talks about that in his book. You should get him on the show. He just wrote this book with Oprah about

I forget what it's called, How to Be Happy or something like that. And he talked about emotional caffeine. So his concept, I'm taking no credit for this, is that caffeine isn't actually a stimulant. It actually blocks the kind of the- The sleepy- The endorphin and sleepy endorphins that are in your brain. And so what do we do to block that in other ways? So-

sadness can be blocked with humor. Yes. Like, if you are telling a joke or goofing off or making someone laugh or laughing yourself, it is literally impossible to be sad at the same time. Yeah, it is. You can stop and then be sad, but while you're doing it, you can't be sad. And...

So I think that was a big survival mechanism for me and my friends. We would watch early, early Saturday Night Live in the late 70s, early 80s. We would do those sketches. We would watch Monty Python and do those sketches and just make each other laugh and laugh.

It was a way to get by. It was subversive. Yep. You know, like the nerds were funny. The popular kids weren't funny. No. Because they didn't need to be. No. Because they were just getting like all this love and attention. Yep. So why would they be funny? So it's the kids in the cracks that end up being funny. It's so true. When did you start thinking I could use my humor for my job? I'm going to go to junior year. We moved to a high school.

outside of Chicago that has an incredible theater program. Yep. Here we go. I sign up for my very first acting class. And it's not true. I took one in Seattle, but it was terrible and we just made puppets.

So I sign up for this acting class. The first exercise, I'm this new kid at school. The first exercise is called Private in Public. So how do you act normally in your room and allow people to just see and to just witness your private life? So I was really into music. I loved like,

crazy, I liked punk and new wave and alternative type of music. And I brought in my record player and this Elvis Costello album and I was just in my room and then I put on this song called Mystery Dance by Elvis Costello that's this rock. And then I started dancing just like crazy. Yeah, yeah. You know, like I would in my room. Yeah. And the crowd went crazy. They went wild in the acting class. I was in this new school. There were all these very cute girls that all of a sudden came up and were like,

oh my gosh, you're so funny. Hey, what's your name? Welcome to our school. Do you want to sit with us at our lunch table? And I was just like, oh, like the angels sang. And I was like, no more chess team. No more bassoon. Like no more model United Nations. I'm going in. I went all in on the drama nerd at that point.

Whoa, okay, love it. So that was the beginning, and there's a lot more to the story, but then did drama in high school, went to one college, did a bunch of plays, went to another college, did a bunch of plays, realized that I kind of needed training as an actor, so I auditioned for it, got into NYU, moved to NYU, and went to acting school, and went all in on that in my early 20s. This episode is brought to you by Bumble.

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I was not taking nearly enough time for myself and it was negatively impacting my brain. One thing that I've done is not allowed myself to doom scroll on social media in my time spent alone. I find that that just ruins the recharging benefits of being alone. I've been making more time to read books, do art and exercise because I find that all of those things make my alone time even more effective in terms of recharging.

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Let's get into acting. When did acting become your job? Well, that's all I wanted. So my dad, like I said, he wrote these science fiction novels. He's published one of them. And he painted paintings. He never sold any of them. So other than the one published science fiction book, I had never met a single person that got paid to be an artist in my whole life. I never met someone who got money to...

write a poem or do a dance or, you know, be an actor or sing a song or anything like that. So that was not in my worldview, mostly in suburban Seattle. So when I decided and I went all in on trying to be an actor, I was like, I want to get paid for this. Yeah. And that was my whole drive. I didn't have a trust fund. I had to make my own rent. I had to make my own way. So I went to this really good acting training program.

That had its ups and downs, got out, and then I started doing little theater things. I was mostly training for the theater and thinking I was going to work in the theater in New York, but I had a ton of shitty jobs there.

driving a moving van. My wife and I had a dog walking service. Cute. It didn't last long. It's hard work. You lost a dog, didn't you? I lost a dog in Central Park. Gone. They're still looking for it. It was called Tales of New York. That's cute. T-A-I-L-S. Get it? I love that. Yeah. We had a great poster. Bring it back. Bring it back.

Family biz. Yeah. Family business. Okay, so... But, yeah, so I went all in and then it was... I wanted it to be my job, but I really wanted to...

I thought I was going to be in the theater. And then I did this tour. You know the actor Jeffrey Wright? He was on this tour with me. We were friends back in the day. Worked together back in the day. And I finished this whole tour. And at the end of it, like, we were getting our mail. And I got, like, my bank statement. And I had, like, $1,200 in the bank. And I had worked for, like, nine months. And I was like... Yeah. And then...

Jeffrey was there and Jeffrey was opening his mail and then I'll never forget it. He's like, yeah, oh my God. Woo, yeah. He'd gotten a residual check because he had done three days on a Harrison Ford movie and he had a check for $3,500. Whoa. He was like, whoa, this is awesome. Yes. And in my head right then and there, I was like,

okay, I'm in the wrong business. If I'm ever going to buy a house, if I'm ever going to pay off my student loans, I got to get into film and TV. So it was a long road, dude. I did nothing but theater for nine or 10 years in New York before I did any TV or film. But I really, you know, a few years in just kind of focused on like, I need to try and get some film and TV work. Yep. Do you prefer theater or film and TV?

What do you think is more fulfilling? So I really, and this sounds like a cop-out, but I really like all of it. Wow. And I'll tell you why. They all have very different demands. It's kind of like saying to a musician, like, do you like playing on an album? Do you like playing live? Right. Or do you like writing songs with songwriters? Yeah. You know, on, around a campfire. Right. It's like, they're all different expressions of music. Yep. And a good musician is going to love all of that. Absolutely. So-

Theater, you know, you're up in front of an audience. It's 90 minutes to two hours. You are telling the story. You are driving the story just with your acting chops. There's no cuts. There's no music. There's no visual effects. It's just you and an audience. And the actor is king in that sense. Yeah.

A film is really intense and really short. You go on a film, you're going to be on it from two weeks to six months. And it's a really compact time of your life. And you're figuring out the arc of the character. And you shoot it maybe crazy out of order. So many times I've done a movie and you're shooting like the last scene on the first day. Yeah. So you've got to really track everything.

So it's about that intensity and it's really in the director's hands. Yeah. Then on a TV show...

Like The Office, like other ones that I've done, the TV show is the domain of the writer. And they're the ones building the one-year arc, the five-year arc, the nine-year arc of the show, season to season, the arc where the characters are going to go. And it's a great, steady job, an amazing paycheck. And it's comforting to go in and get to play

you know, Dwight for 12 hours a day for nine years. Yeah. So another family and that's a whole different experience. It sounds like

You love the art of acting. I do. Because I don't think... I did not go into it for fame or money. I really didn't. In fact, I was on Bill Maher's podcast tonight. He was like, well, you got into it for the fame. I was like, no, I didn't. He was like, come on. I'm like, no. I love the craft of acting. I love the craft of storytelling. Yeah. I love to transform into characters that are different than myself. And...

I've always just loved that. Did I want to pay the bills? Sure. Did I want to ultimately buy a house? Sure. But I didn't go into it to become the wildly successful talent that you see before you. Do you like being famous? I'll be really honest with you. Please. Mostly yes. Oh. Because of the doors that it opens. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I went into this incredible restaurant.

with my managers. We had a dinner and then they recognized me and they're like, blah, blah, blah. Here's our number and you can come in anytime. So then my wife's birthday, last night, we went and I got to use that and get a nice table. They gave us some free scallops and I was like, this is awesome. And I've gotten invited to tennis tournaments and trips to places and you get a lot of

perks from it that for a nerdy kid from Seattle, I'm like, I'll take it. And I'm super grateful for Dwight, but it can be, it can be tough to just be known mostly for one character. I've played dozens and dozens of characters in my career, but I'm mostly known for one and that can be tough and it can be tough socially in a lot of ways, like just how you're treated and let's get, you want to get deep? Here we go. I love getting deep.

When they asked young people not long ago, what was their number one goal? Did they want money? Did they want sex? Did they want happiness? Did they want blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? By far and away, the thing they wanted the most was fame. Because fame gives you all that. Theoretically, fame gives you money. It gives you sex. It gives you status. It gives you supposedly happiness. Yep.

it doesn't give you happiness. No. If you have a hole in you,

fame is not going to fill that hole. No. In fact, it's going to take you away from your happiness because then you don't, you have not done the work to build up your internal sense of self where it's like, I love myself. I want to be with myself. I have a vision of what my life is and I'm content in that and I have mission and purpose and vibrancy. And then fame just,

It just breeds more fame. It's like a drug. You're chasing it ever more. And you want more likes and more followers and more jobs and more money and more status and more esteem. And you're searching outside of yourself. And it's a crazy thing. Like, get this. And maybe you've had... I don't want to hear your experience. When I started to get famous, which was later for me, late 30s, early 40s, from the office, and I did a couple of shows before that, Six Feet Under and some other things, and I started to get recognized, like...

It was the weirdest thing. Picture that nerdy kid that I was talking about whose mom took off, whose parents were in a loveless, fractured marriage with a lot of just alienation all around me. And then picture that guy, that same guy at 38, 39, walking down the streets and people going, hey, I love you. Which is a weird thing to say. Oh, no, that's a lot. Yeah. I love you. And they turn like, I love you. I love you. It's like,

I'm being loved. Finally, I'm loved. Oh my gosh, I'm loved. It's like, it's not love. Yeah. I've laughed at you and I appreciate your work is what they should be saying. And,

And I enjoy what you do. Yeah. But they don't love me. Yeah. They don't love. They don't even know you. They don't know me and they don't love the kind of essentially unlovable Rainn Wilson. So. I doubt that I, you're very lovable, but it's. No, but I understand that because, I mean, I think it's interesting because for me, you know, my career has been, they only know me.

I've never been a character. So it's so unusual because when they say, like, oh, I love you, it's like, this is weird because you actually do kind of know me. And I am... There is always going to be parts... There are parts of me that are not seen. That's impossible. You're not going to share all of you. I can't share everything. They don't see my mental breakdown. Like, I don't know. They don't see me on a grumpy day. It is weird because you almost feel maybe...

Is it imposter syndrome in a way? Like you, you're, you're receiving all this love and affection and you're like, but I don't feel like it's deserved. Is that, was that sort of your experience or was it more like they don't know me and they think that they do. So this is kind of bizarre and, and hard to digest. Like, what was your reaction to suddenly having all these people

fawn after you and love you. It's just a colossal mindfuck because who doesn't love people coming up and saying, hey, I love you. Of course. Or I love your work or I love what you do. Yeah. You're great. Like, everyone loves that. Celebrities are lying if they say like, oh, I don't like fame or I don't like that. Of course. Everyone likes that. That is a very human thing. Yeah. But at the same time, in the first few years that I was famous, it kind of went to my head in some not healthy ways. And I'm not saying I went on like

cocaine-fueled binges and, you know, like... Good job. But it didn't mess with my head and messed with my ego because... Oh. And I'm also not saying I became, like, this arrogant narcissist, you know, but I could be a dick sometimes. And it was really hard for my wife to put up with me during...

A lot of those, those years. And, and I wanted more. And I was, you know, I've talked about this on some other opposite of imposter syndrome. It was like, I got this. I'm going to soak it up. I want to soak it up. And I want, and I want more of it. I see. How come I'm not getting even more? Yeah. That chase is like, Oh, this feels good. Then I want, I want,

I want more. Absolutely. Now, a lot of people, I imagine people are watching and going, oh, boo hoo hoo, cry me a river, you celebrities. You make money, you get endorsements. Oh, it's so hard. It's a lot harder to be a plumber and to pay your bills. But,

still people view it as like oh once you get a certain level of fame then you're you are arrived and you are going to have it all and you won't have any worries we talked about anxiety a little bit and i was a very anxious child and turned into an anxious adult i've been treated for anxiety i have an anxiety disorder anxiety makes me do a lot of things i don't want to do yeah and

fame, it's like pot. Pot makes you think that you're calming your anxiety. It doesn't really calm your anxiety. It's just putting like a blanket over it temporarily until you come like kicking and thrashing out of the blanket. So fame is the same thing. Like it's seemingly soothing your anxiety. Oh, they like me. Oh, I'm popular. Oh, I've got a new job. Oh, that's soothing. But it's not addressing that essential wound. My, like,

anxiety response to fame is so the opposite. Like, me being in the public eye gives me so, so much anxiety. More anxiety, yeah. Yes. Like, it is a trigger for me. I think it's also the internet age. But you chose to be in the public eye. Yeah. You chose to be in the public eye. Yeah. And you could not do it. I could totally not do it. Yeah. But I have to weigh the pros and cons. Like, I... Because I love...

There are so many things about it that I love. So it's so worth it. So it's more like managing that relationship. What is, I think, so frightening is sort of the town square, like, you feel like you're always in the middle of the town square in a way, even though no one really cares and it's not really that deep. But you feel like every move you make maybe... Mm-hmm.

you're being scrutinized, which you are in a way. And that, I think, is what causes me a lot of anxiety. But there is a difference between being an actor. Now, people know me from Instagram and social media or whatever. There's a certain level of play there. And being on podcasts like this where I'm talking as myself. But mostly people know me as a character.

so that it's a little separation. But you're right. You come up in this lens and it's like people are following your every move, what you're wearing, what you're saying. And so your every action is scrutinized in a way where it's kind of like, God, can I just go get a smoothie and not take a shower and not have someone try and sneak a picture on their phone and post it or something like that? Well, I think the age of social media has impacted what

being a celebrity is you know what i mean or being famous is because anything can be posted at any time of you yeah there is a lot of dwight on tiktok is there of course i mean what is your relationship to that character like you're probably so are you just so sick of talking about it like or or will it never get old because it was such a huge part of your life and it is i imagine such a special character to you like what is your relationship to dwight

Well, am I... Yes and no am I sick of talking about it. Like, I've talked about it a ton, because not just over the last 10 years since the show ended, but during the nine years of doing the show. So it's been almost 20 years of talking about Dwight. Yeah. So part of it is like, who likes to talk about anything for 20 years? No, yeah. But that...

At the same time, I understand the lasting legacy of that show and how important it is to people, how important it is to their mental health and how much it has helped

calm and, and qualm people's anxiety. And people are so obsessed with the show. They love it so much. I go to, sometimes I'll go to a fan conference and do some signings or, or run into people or whatever. Like people are, are crying. They're sobbing because that show just meant so much to them. So I want to honor that, you know? And, you know, like I said, I played dozens of characters before Dwight. I've played a couple dozen characters since I played Dwight and,

It's just one of the characters that it happened to be the one that was on a home run show that lasted. But I have a great relationship with Dwight and a great testament is that people can't believe how different I am than Dwight. And they, yeah, but they see some similarities and I have some similarities. Yeah. Dwight opened so many doors for me. I mean, I've had so many incredible opportunities to do movies and to meet incredible people.

folk and travel and obviously to buy a house and a great paycheck and an amazing office family. So super, super grateful. How could I not be? But I do, I hope at the end of the day that people understand like, oh, he was an actor and he was a good actor and he was good in a lot of different roles. Well, that's what I was going to say. Like, what do you feel like is a role that you did that

you want to talk about more? Like, because it was so... Well, I haven't done any for nine years, so I didn't do 200 episodes of any other role. Right, of course. So, you know, I... But even something that was like, even if it was like a tiny indie film that no one ever saw, like whatever, like what is that character for you? What is that role for you? All right, I did, the first thing that popped in my head is I did this indie film 10 years ago called Hesher. And it was with Joseph Gordon-Levitt and Natalie Portman.

And no one saw it for some reason. It's a really good movie. The score is by Metallica. Whoa. And it's a really fucked up and funny drama. And I play this kind of really sad dad. His wife has died. It's a dramatic role. I'm pill popping and it's a role I loved playing. And,

A lot of people saw the film and had no idea it was the guy who played Dwight. Whoa. And it was kind of like, for them, it was like jaw-dropping because I just, I looked so different and acted so different and they couldn't even put it together. Wait, I need to watch this? Yeah, yeah. It's a really good film. Yeah. What is your favorite type of, or like, what was sort of your favorite type of character?

character to play? Was there something that you were drawn to? Is it something that's similar to you or something that's maybe as far away from you as possible? What was the most exciting to you? Well, I think from the background that we talked about, I love to play misfits and I love to play people that don't fit in. I wouldn't know how to play someone popular or well-balanced. Could I do it? I could kind of fake my way through it. You know what I mean? Could I play like a

a handsome, popular CEO. Like, well, maybe I could give that a try. Yes, you could. Who used to be in a frat, like maybe, but I'm always going to be attracted to the oddballs and the weirdos and the people that have anxiety and alienation and, and just don't quite fit in. That's, that's where my heart goes. Like I, those are the people I'm drawn to. Those are the, the people I, I, I love. And those are the characters I like to play.

Are you going to do some acting? You should do some acting. You know, I actually did. I've done one audition. Oh, wow. And I didn't think I would enjoy it because I didn't grow up doing theater. I want to manage your acting career. Oh, my God. I would love that. Can I be your manager? Yes. That's really easy. That's easy. Emma, we've got an audition for you. You can do the reads with me.

No, that's how manager doesn't do that. Oh, come on. Just the first. That'll cost you. Okay, fine. Fine. Per hour or like per minute? You're more per minute for that? We could go $1,000 an hour. Ouch. That's fine. We'll work it out. Well, actually, there's something that's really interesting to me about acting is my entire career is quite literally it's

all about me being myself all the time. That's all it is. I've almost never played a character and there's something so appealing to me and almost refreshing to me about the idea of doing the opposite. I think what's curious to me is like, can those who are familiar with me separate me from the other?

from what would be the character. You know what I mean? It's almost like this opposite sort of like, for you, people talk to you and they're like, where's Dwight? Like, what's, you know? Oh, that was kind of like Dwight. It's like, are they going to,

with me, they're like, she, this is weird. Like she would never, like they're immediately going to be like, well, that's not her. That's not her. But maybe not. Like, I don't know. I don't know how it would translate. It's a relief from being yourself sometimes. It is. Oh, I get to be in someone else's shoes, see the world through the lens that they see the world can have thoughts and feelings that they're having, not necessarily what I'm having. And there's something really magical about that transformation. I don't want to sound pretentious, but it's,

It's exciting to do when you can hook in to a character's guts and transform from your normal slobby self. It's great. Do you feel like as an anxious person, like it's an anxiety relieving experience?

sort of activity to be on set. It is interesting. I mean, there's a different set of anxiety. If you're on a set and everyone's watching, how good are you? There's a certain anxiety. If you're on a stage and there's people watching, that's a different kind of anxiety. The kind of anxiety that I have has to do with just me being in my own skin and just my anxiety. I do a lot of things to

I don't want to say control it, but to manage it. So I do exercise. I do prayer and meditation. I'm in therapy and I have other things.

tools to, you know, when it starts to creep up on me, I can recognize it and say, Oh, hi, there you are. Hi, hi, anxiety. What's going on? Like, what do you need? Oh, you're afraid right now. Do you need soothing? You know, to me, I feel like anxiety and my therapist works with me on this a lot. It's like, it's like,

It's a need that's not being met. So when it appears, it's like you have to go not just, oh, I'm a suffering, I'm a slave, I'm a victim to my anxiety. What's the next step? What is my anxiety telling me that I need? Is it telling me that I need to unplug for a while? Is it telling me I need to exercise? Is it telling me that I need a hug? Is it telling me that I need a nap?

Is it telling me I need to be in nature? Yep. Does it telling me that I need to kind of finish those things that I've been putting off for months that I said I was going to do? Like,

Allow it to be your teacher and your guide. Don't allow it to become your master. And it takes a while to figure that out. You know, it took me decades to kind of figure that out. But now when I, when the anxiety rises, I get to detach from it with love. I get to, it's welling up. I get to go, oh, there you are. Put my arm around it. What do you need? You know, what do you need? Do you get panic attacks?

I used to get panic attacks a ton in my 20s. Yeah. I'm going through that phase right now. I get so, so many and it's horrible. It's like, and it's, but it almost becomes, I think this thing where, and maybe you had this experience too, where it's like you become afraid of getting another one.

because you know how debilitating it is to get one. And you start to feel it well a little bit. You feel the hackles rise and your breath gets a little short and you're like, oh no, I'm going to get one. And you get more anxious. And then you get one because of it. It's like you maybe just were a little nervous. Now you're fully having a panic attack. It's horrible. There are two different types of anxiety. There's anxiety that comes as a reaction of something and it's inevitable. Being on stage, of course you're anxious. But then there's anxiety that's like,

it's almost unnecessary. It's not. It seemingly comes from nowhere. Yes. Yes. But you know how you get in through an anxiety attack. Like you learn, you don't, you don't fight it. You just, you recognize, oh, here it is and it sucks, but you have to breathe through it and you know, it's going to pass. You don't hold your breath. You breathe. I would, I would always lay down on the floor and, and, and, you know, kind of fetal position and just, and then it would pass. And then you learn, okay, it's going to,

It's going to pass. You know, I used to get them on talk shows. So when I was doing like the big talk shows like Letterman and Leno and Kimmel and stuff like that, I would get them before the talk show. And that was...

Part performance, but it was also part imposter syndrome of you're not funny enough, you're not good enough, people aren't going to like you. Where was the pressure coming from to be funny? Was it coming from within? Was it coming from the industry? Where was that pressure? It's two parts. Number one, it's the most artificial...

form of entertainment there is. Like if you're going on Jimmy Kimmel, you talk to the producer, like we're going to have you on for six minutes. Yeah. What funny things happened to you? You know, what stories can we tell? And they're looking, it's, it's kind of scripted. Oh yeah. It's worked out ahead of time and you're expected. And especially for someone like me, I'm expected to go on there and be really funny.

Right. Because I'm the guy who played Dwight. But I'm not a stand up. Yeah. Like I'm an actor. I play characters and the characters are written funny. Yeah. You know, I'm not necessarily I'm a little bit funny, but I'm not like that kind of funny. Yeah. You know, I'm not like Seth Rogen funny or, you know, stand up comic funny. You know, John Mulaney funny. I can't just go riff and just be brilliant. So that's the one pressure. And then the other pressure is like.

Oh, you're not going to be funny. They're going to see through you. You're going to see what a loser you really are. And, and, you know, then there's that imposter syndrome kind of thing. And then that's the fear of like, they're not going to like me. I'm going to bomb. So it's this two pressures. So that was, that was tough to negotiate for a while. It only lasted a couple of years, but then, and then I got through it. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace sites just feel nicer.

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You're podcasting it up. Yeah, yeah. I'm potting it up. So are you balancing potting and acting? Exactly. I'm in a great space because I used to just be all about my acting career. And I had such a low self-esteem if I wasn't working or if I wasn't getting new work. And it's definitely things have kind of slowed down to a certain degree. But you never know.

in showbiz all of a sudden I could do something and it takes off and things work out great but so I'm still acting I'm going to go do a movie in two months in New York and I'm going to do a play in LA later this year and so I'm going to do the acting but I wrote this book called Soul Boom Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution and it's really about the

the power of spirituality to affect your life, both on a personal level, but also on a societal level. And I love having those kinds of conversations, like just the conversation we're having about like anxiety and mental health, but also like,

how do we make the world a better place? And how do we think about spiritual tools to help transform the world? We've just recorded like 15 episodes of the Soul Boom podcast that's coming out in April. And I love it. This is...

It is absolutely my bliss is to be having these kind of conversations, meaningful, deep, impactful conversations that are also a little funny. Yes. Come on. A little funny. A little funny. We're cut from the same cloth, Chamberlain. Yes. And you're my second favorite Chamberlain, Richard Chamberlain. Oh. Yeah. I'm happy to be second. That's easy for me. Okay. But if you met my dad, I would be third.

And if you met my mom, I might actually be fourth. Oh, wow. I have like fun parents. They have, they're great Chamberlains. I know. Wow. So the, I'm just doing this pod and this kind of work and writing and, um, is I love it. And I get to do that in acting. So it's just win, win. See, that's great. It's nice to do a little bit of everything, but for some reason, when I saw that you had this new podcast coming out, I was like, is this the new vision? Are we, are we still acting like, or is this the new vision? Yeah. But,

I think it's so it's exciting to hear that. No, it's like you're just adding this on to what you're already doing. Yeah. Acting is not done. Is your relationship to acting still healthy? Do you feel like you're going to act forever? I feel like I'm going to act forever. Whoa. Yeah. I don't know where that's going to go. I love doing theater. I spent my first nine years as an actor doing theater.

You know, I may do a lot more, but I would like to die on stage. Wow. Playing like King Lear or something like that and have a heart attack. I love that. That's how I want to go. That's amazing. Yeah. And iconic. And hopefully I don't like shit myself and puke on the stage when I do. You will. Like I...

Would it be possible for me to die on stage in a sexy way? Maybe, but I think the shitting always happens. Or would it be like, blood! Piss myself. Blood. Maybe it could be kind of romantic and maybe somebody catches you. We could plan it. Okay. I'll manage that. Okay, you'll manage my death on stage? You manage my acting career. Okay. And then I will then in return manage this. Deal. Deal.

However, I know you mentioned earlier $1,000 an hour. First, let's get that down to $500 an hour. Okay. And then I'll manage. Deal. Do you see where I'm at? Yes, I got you. Do you watch what you're in? Rarely. I wouldn't if I was an actor. I watched all the Office episodes once. So there's a lot of them I haven't seen in literally like 16 years.

Interesting. So people will ask me office trivia and I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. I can imagine you don't even remember shooting half of it probably. I don't even remember. Right? People will say, remember the scene when you were put Creed in the trunk of your car and you guys were eating hot dogs with Andy on the roof? I have no idea. No, I get it.

Do you have a show that you watch as people watch The Office? No, I mean, there's shows that I love that a lot of other people love that are just great television. I re-watched The Sopranos again recently, and, God, it was so much fun. I just love that show so much. I feel like there's a lot of other of those kind of shows I want to re-watch. The Greats, Mad Men is great. Breaking Bad is great. I haven't seen... Love Game of Thrones. Have you seen any of these? Mm-mm.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No, can I tell you something about me that's crazy? You need to shut the fuck up. You need to send me a list. Have you not seen... I've never seen The Sopranos. Have you seen Breaking Bad? Mm-mm. Game of Thrones? Mm-mm. Oh, my God. I don't know how to have this conversation with you. Can we wrap this up? Oh, my God. I know. I need to send you home. Because this is what you're doing all the time. And you could be doing this. Can I tell you...

Instead of this. Kids, get off your fucking asses and doing this. - Stop scrolling and start clicking. - Can I tell you my excuse? I didn't grow up with cable. So I grew up with a computer. I watched so much YouTube growing up. That was my thing. I've watched a very limited number of-- - Don't you love entering the world of a show though? - I do.

- I do. - Like it's a slow, the slow thing of like there's eight or 10 or 20 episodes a year and like you're going on an eight year journey and like, you know. - I do. - Like they get the popcorn and like put your phone away and just like immerse. - Ugh, popcorn sounds so good. Wow, buttery popcorn. Think about how good that sounds right now. - Did you see Dune? - No.

I saw the first one, actually. You haven't seen Dune 2? No. Did you see the first one in the theater? No. God damn it! You have to go to the theater and see the second one. Is it so good? So good. Really? Oh, it's so good. Okay, I'm going to so see that. I, like, am very... I've seen very few movies, and I've seen... And I've watched very little TV. Like, there's something about me... There's something wrong with you. There's something wrong with me. No, it's because I grew up on...

watching YouTube that I love YouTube. At the end of the day, when I go home and I want to put something on the TV, I'm putting up YouTube. I have watched a few shows all the way through

I'll tell you. Have you watched How To with John Wilson? Yes, I love it. That I rewatch constantly. But that's like a YouTube show. I rewatch The Office, but it's fine. Of course I rewatch The Office. But then I also rewatch... How many times have you seen The Office? Twice all the way through, which is a lot for me. That is a lot for you. That's a lot for me. Yeah. For an average Office fan, that ain't shit. No, no, no. I'm like actually a rookie of the year. But like...

I don't watch a lot of TV. Yeah. I don't know, but I feel like a rookie being bad at TV. I'm going to give you some names of some shows, and it's okay. Are you going to forgive me? I'm going to forgive you. Are you going to fire me even though I'm your client and you're my manager? It's a generational thing. I get it. I understand it. Now we need to get spiritual. I would love to get spiritual. Well, I'm curious. Are you a spiritual person because of your childhood, because you grew up with a rich sort of spiritual background?

experience? Did you become more spiritual as an adult out of necessity? Because life gets just more complex. And like, I feel like the, the, every year that goes by, I need to be more spiritual on finding when I was younger, I was like, eh, don't need it now. I'm like, Oh my God. When you say spiritual, what does that mean to you? Cause that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. I, for me, spiritual is any sort of

feeling of connection to something bigger. And it doesn't matter what it is. It can be religious, it could be completely personal. For me, I went to a Jewish preschool and then a Catholic high school. But I am not super religious. I never went to church with my family on the weekend. So it was around me, but I wasn't super religious.

And then as I'm growing older, I'm becoming more spiritual out of necessity. Like actually it's like all, I cannot survive without that element. I think a lot of Gen Z, my understanding is that Gen Z more and more are turning to potential spiritual answers for people.

not only the anxiety, depression, alienation, loneliness that they might feel, struggle with, addiction issues, overwhelm, but also as the systems around us continue to fail, the political system is dog shit, let's face it. The economic system is increasingly unfair. Racism and sexism continue to rear their heads constantly. The environment is degraded.

I think Gen Z people are more and more interested in looking at what would a spiritual solution to this look like based on spiritual concepts like compassion and mutuality and consultation and love and selfless service toward others. And I definitely feel that in your generation. It's a uniquely challenging time because it is

cushy and comfortable in ways to live today compared to 100 years ago. You know what I mean? But then in other ways, it's so complex. But I think that there's been a dismantling of traditional religion, in America anyway, where there's so many people who are rejecting a traditional approach, but they still need that

something spiritual. Yeah. What's your spirituality routine right now? Well, let me go back to the first question you asked because when I said I left the Baha'i faith when I was a kid and I went into my adulthood, what happened for me is anxiety, depression, addiction, loneliness,

hit me hard in my 20s. And back in the 90s, there weren't a lot of answers for those things. It wasn't like you couldn't go to betterhelp.com. You couldn't get the mindfulness app. You couldn't listen to the podcast on wellness. There weren't these resources out there. A couple of self-help books in the Barnes and Noble, but that was about it. So I know who could afford therapy back

So I turned to the only thing I knew, which was spirituality. So I started out of my personal misery, started reading the writings of the Buddha. And I read the Bible and I read the Koran and I was searching for something because I thought, well, maybe if I tap into some greater meaning and some greater connection beyond, like you said, myself, then I will find some

solace. And I think humans are wired this way. Humans are wired to be spiritual. We always want to find something greater than ourselves. We always want to worship something greater than ourselves. And that might be money. That might be your career. It might be celebrity. Who knows what it is, but we always want to

We want to find something greater than ourselves to worship in a way. But oftentimes we're worshiping the wrong thing. We're worshiping success or worshiping status or worshiping our social media personas. But what would it be like to worship, oh, I don't know,

God. And by God, I don't mean an old white man on a cloud with a beard who's judgmental. That's not what I'm talking about, but some kind of power force that courses through this universe and infinite other universes that we can tap into and find inspiration and connection. So I came to spirituality out of necessity, not out of virtue. And I think that

That doesn't mean I'm arrived or especially wise or illumined or anything like that. I just, I needed it to cope. And that brought me back to my Baha'i faith of my childhood. And I am a participating member of the Baha'i faith. But I think for everyone, it's...

um what tools can we find from spirituality from all the different rich beautiful faith traditions to make our lives better so my daily practice is prayer and meditation every morning um a connection with my higher power um and i i'm able i have a little bench out in my backyard so i'm able to kind of

connect with nature and there's hummingbirds and there's, you know, you said it so well, just instantaneous. Like what does spirituality mean to you? And you're like connection. Yeah. And it's all about connection. It's connection with something greater than ourselves. And that can be a friend group, you know, as we're increasingly isolated. So I connect with my friends and I try and think about my life in terms of

Here I have, I've been given these talents and attributes for whatever reason. I'm this big, weird character actor who's intrigued by spirituality and issues around mental health. Like, what can I offer? Because when I'm able to give of myself, not only does it benefit the world, it also makes me feel better. So I try and harness that as well. It's so true. When do you feel the most spiritually empowered?

I don't know if I've ever felt perfectly spiritually aligned. I feel like I'm always working on it. Yeah, I don't think it's something you arrive. You never arrive at the mountaintop and all of a sudden you're there. It's a process. It's a mastery. If anyone undertakes tennis or tai chi or chess or one of these things, they are...

They are, you're seeking mastery, but that doesn't mean you ever arrive. Yep. You seek to become better and better at it. Yep. And gather more and more tools. But when I feel the most spiritual is in nature. And I try and go camping at least once or twice a year and like really do that.

you know, hardcore. There's a psychologist who came out recently with this thing. I forget who they were. They're apologies. I forget who it is, but they talk about how we need to get outside at least every day. Then we need to have like play dates in nature at least once or twice a week. And then we also need to go isolate in nature at least once

once every couple months. So think about connecting with nature on ever deepening ways for our wellbeing. But I also, like you said, connection, like love, gratitude, connection with others is where I find God. And it's yet do I worship like a power greater than myself? Do I worship some kind of like

cosmic energy force that's creativity and beauty and music all wrapped into one yes i do and i believe that that force is very powerful but i also find god just in connection with others

Amen. I'm finding God in this podcast room with you. Really? Right here. Oh my God. You're like my God today. Stop it. I mean it. I mean it. Yes. Is that what your God does? God picks his nose too. Like, sorry. Okay. That was amazing. I feel like

I feel like we can set each other free today. Let's do it. Do you feel like we nailed it? Total freedom. What do you have after this? Do you get to go take a nap? I might go take a nap today. I am going home and I'm taking a nap, 100%. And then I'm going to play tennis tonight. Cute. Yeah. Hey, thank you for doing this. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for having me. It was so fun. Yeah, it was great. I can't wait for your podcast.

podcast. Yeah. Well, there's an open invitation if you would like to come. I would love. We shoot it out in suburban LA. It's a little drive, but it's really fun. And I guarantee you there'll be delicious snacks and an invigorating conversation. We'd love to have you on Soul Boom. I would love to. Okay. We'll get that on the books. Okay. You're the best. Appreciate it. Bye. This episode is brought to you by Hydro Flask.

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