indecisiveness, a talk with emily p. freeman [video]
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There are very few things that we do every day. I'll list a few. Breathing, blinking. You can't even say pooping because some of us don't poop every day. Because some of us have chronic constipation. There aren't a lot of things that we do every day. But something that we do every day that we don't think about enough is make decisions. We don't consider the decisions that we make as deeply as I think we could. It's so automatic, right?

I think the value in shifting a little bit of your attention towards the decisions that you make on a day-to-day basis can help you make better decisions, can just avoid a lot of stress. You know, I'm so excited to be speaking to Miss Emily P. Freeman today because her mission is to help people get out of a rut, help people get better at making decisions, help you figure out the next right thing. She actually has a book.

called The Next Right Thing, a simple, soulful practice for making life decisions. But that's not her only book. She has many books. Another honorable mention.

is how to walk into a room, the art of knowing when to stay and when to walk away. Emily's work focuses on helping people discover the transformative power of quiet reflection and living with intention, leading to a more meaningful and fulfilling life. And don't we all want that? She also has a podcast called The Next Right Thing. With Emily today, I'm excited to discuss the art of decision-making because...

When you really think about it, a lot of stress and discomfort starts with a decision that needs to be made. Or that's the root of it. And so the better we are at making decisions, the more we can have fun. Sorry. The more we can have fun. And I'm all about fun. So let's bring in Emily. This episode is brought to you by Walmart.

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Try opening moves on the new Bumble. Download Bumble now. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. You know, I've been getting pretty good at spotting sites made with Squarespace. They just feel nice. That's because Squarespace is jam-packed with features that can help you easily make stunning websites like their Blueprint AI. It makes designing super easy and actually fun.

And with Fluid Engine, you can customize every detail with a simple drag and drop interface. Plus, you can accept payments any way you like, and their SEO tools help people find you online. Head to squarespace.com slash Emma for a free trial and use code Emma to save 10% on your first purchase. I'm curious. Obviously, like making a decision is important, right? Like that is important.

But what about the way that we approach making decisions? Like, what is the significance of the approach to making a decision? Yeah. I'm so glad you asked that question because I think we all, I mean, there's lots of, you know, books and studies about this, but just, I'll just speak kind of casually about it. We all approach decisions in basically one of three ways. We either lead with our gut, we lead with our head, or we lead with our heart. Yeah. And I'm sort of a heart person, which can be

great or terrible depending on the day depending on the decision yep i know you i think you're a gut person totally what i would from just listening to you and kind of learning from you and i think the thing that you lead with you often admire the one that other people have you know of course oh if only i was a gut person yeah you know you think like grass is always green always yep but i think it's good for us to know it's not that we you only make decisions on your gut

But it's that that's what you lead with. And so when you recognize about yourself that you're someone who leads with your gut or your intuition, then it can be helpful to just pay attention to the cues the other centers give you. And that might take community. That might take other practices that you have to work harder at.

Because the gut comes so naturally. And so you kind of have to test the gut sometimes, right? Yeah. It's like I lead with my heart or I lead with my head. You know, head people are more like the pro-con listy maybe or like they're kind of doing their research. Yep. Figuring it out. Yep. And you're kind of like, I just don't feel right about it. Yeah. Yes, totally. Our thing. And so that's why, I mean, that's why we need each other. That's why it's so great that we're not having to do this thing alone. Mm-hmm.

But I also think that, you know, for me, and maybe some people can relate to this, there's a theologian and an Irish poet named Padraig Otuma. And he says, we might know more than we know we know. Yeah. And I think that that's something I am even at, you know, a grown human person. I'm still learning to like not outsource my confidence to someone else. Yes. And really trust what I know. Yes. But first I have to know what I know. How do you feel about

seeking advice to help make a decision. Like, it's definitely good sometimes, but I've talked about this with my dad before. He's like, a lot of advice is just shit. Yeah. He's not wrong. Most advice is bad. You know, and maybe that's why making decisions is so complicated because there isn't a right way to do things. It's very individual. Right. But I guess my question is, you know, how helpful is advice? Should we seek advice?

When is it helpful? When is it harmful? It depends on who the advice is coming from. Right. I mean, your dad's not wrong. Yeah. There are two categories of people that I think about when it comes to seeking advice. One is the gurus, like the kind of, listen, I have been a guru collector in my life where it's like when I have a big decision to make, sometimes I want to avoid that one. And so I'll go and try to make decisions about like,

capsule wardrobe or you know like what's the best body type for my all that type of stuff I love that shit I do the same thing and then you sign up for like then I'm like why does my inbox have so much junk in it it's because I've been collecting gurus yes it's like a good tell for me I mean we all have our tells but for me that's a great tell of like I'm avoiding something important yes

Because I've been guru collecting again. Yep. So that's not a great – I mean, there can be some gurus. I think we can pick our – I call it like picking your Oprahs. Pick your gurus wisely. Yes. Like the ones that you're like, no, I want to learn from this person. Yes. In this area. Yes. And we can have those, but they're probably not going to be the people that we can call up on the phone because they don't know that we exist. No, totally. Totally. So then there's this other group that I call co-listeners. Mm-hmm.

And I mean, you know, and those are the people who are more handpicked. These are the ones it's like the small. I think Brene Brown talks about writing on if you can write on one piece of paper that you can carry in your pocket, the people whose opinion you care what it is like and no bigger than that. If you're not on this paper, like you don't get a say. I love that. I love that. So I think that those co-listeners, people who I mean.

I feel like we have a lack of listening epidemic where a lot of us, we know how to talk, we know how to say words, but we don't always know how to listen. Listen.

and listen well and listen in a way that is not toxic. In other words, not trying to tell the person what we necessarily think they ought to do or what we would do, but really listen and pay attention to what makes them tick, what's important to them, what are their core values. And so that's something I'm really, I look for people like that who are willing to listen and ask me not just the first question, but maybe the question beneath the question and the second question. And those are the types of people that I think are

are good to kind of seek advice from. What about like the headspace when it comes to making decisions? Like, as I mentioned, when it comes to taking advice, right? Like a lot of times when we're faced with a decision, particularly a big one, we get frazzled. You know what I mean? We get anxious. We start overthinking. Is it always best to be in a solid headspace to make a decision? Can we

to force that headspace? Like, what is the ideal state of mind for making a decision? And then on top of that, how do you get there if you're not there? Yeah. I guess. It's a great question. Yeah. And I would say, probably we would all say that we want to be in our tippy-toppiest shape. Yes. Every time. Yes. But we know that's not always possible. There are lots of different types of decisions. You know, if you think about there are ones that we have to make on the spot.

There are ones that we have a deadline for and we've got some time to prepare. And so we've got time for that anxiety, that initial anxiety to wear down. We've got time to test the decision, to live with. One trick you can do is make a decision for 24 hours and live with it and see how your body responds.

Yes. And then the next day do the opposite. Like if you're going to decide, yes, okay, I'm going to do this thing, but I'm not going to tell anyone. I'm just going to live with it in my body for 24 hours, see how it goes, flip it the next night, see how that goes. If you have the time. But I think really, I think the question beneath your question could be, what if we don't have the time? What do we do when...

We have to make a decision kind of on the spot. And part of that, I think, is, you know, the secret that nobody really talks about when it comes to decision making is in some ways the decision is rarely the point. The point in many ways is who are you becoming in the process of making this decision? And as we focus on our character, who we are in community, who we are spiritually, who I am on the inside, I think that's

that can grow us to give us more confidence later when a decision comes and you don't have time to cultivate your character real quick. Yeah, that's true. So that's something that if it's a lifestyle, then I think it helps us make better decisions along the way. Keeping in mind that such an invitation that I have

tried to extend to myself, and I don't always do this well, is to be my own friend. Oh, me too. Because listen, we're not always going to get it right. And sometimes we're going to do, we're going to be in a great headspace and we're going to ask all the right people. We're going to be, you know, spiritually, physically, mentally feeling great. And we're going to make our call

And then we're going to live the life, we're going to live the decision out, and everything's going to go terrible. Yep. And we'll be like, what did I get wrong? And that's when doubt can come in. And we wonder, like, did I not discern correctly? Maybe I can't trust myself after all. Or maybe I'm embarrassed or I look like a fool now and maybe other people can't trust me. So all these questions come in. But the reality is that we do the best we can with what we know at the time. Mm-hmm.

And if things go terribly, if our measure of success is how things turn out, I think we'll continually be disappointed and we will lack confidence in ourselves. But if we say, my goal is to make this decision as the person I most deeply am right now with all the information I have in front of me and to do my next right thing, to move, to take action. Marie Forleo talks about how clarity comes from action, but clarity cannot be rushed.

And so we just have to do what we can do. And then once we make that decision and we live with whatever the consequences are, then we say, oh, well, if the goal wasn't perfection, if the goal wasn't that everything turns out exactly right every single time, if the goal was me becoming more of who I most deeply am, well, I still get that. Right. You never don't get that. You never don't get that. That's so true. Yes.

If anything, I've learned the most from my bad decisions. Listen. I mean, I think bad decision. No, bad decision. Yeah. Like I was like, should I be nicer? But it's like, no, it's okay that it's bad. Yeah. Like, you know, it's like those are actually the things that that really test you and really

force you to grow through it. You know what I mean? When things are all sunshine and rainbows, you can hit autopilot and be like, I'm chilling out. And that's gorgeous. And we need those moments. Take it when you can get it. But I think that's the way I've reframed it. You know, when I make bad decisions, it doesn't make it any easier. And it's a lot, it's a lot easier said than done, but I've tried to reframe it. Like when I make a bad decision, I'm like,

this is where my character development comes in. Like this is, and I mean, do you think that that reframing actually ironically makes you make better decisions? Like if you can convince yourself the truth, actually, it's not even, it's actually true that bad decisions are not, I mean, it depends on how bad it is. Like, did you do something really bad? But like, you know, like something involved. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, let's like, if it's,

to move to New York or to Los Angeles. Right. Like we'll keep it in that world for the sake of the conversation. But it's like, if you should have actually probably moved to LA because, you know, when you moved to New York, if you can look at that decision as, yeah, one might be more fulfilling for me, but also the other one's going to teach me something even more valuable. It's like, does that reframing then make you make better decisions overall? Or do you think

No, like it doesn't make a difference because I feel like taking the pressure off naturally puts you in a better state to then make decisions. Like, have you noticed that in people or even in yourself? I think so for sure. I did a very informal survey among my readers about like who among you are

decisive. Like you would self say, you know, like self report, I'm a decisive person. Only about 30 to 35% of the people who read my stuff and who listen to what I'm saying and teaching would say that maybe that's because the decisive people don't need to listen to me. So that's, you know, skewed already.

But among those who were like, yeah, I'm not a chronically hesitant person. I can make a decision. So I dug into them and I asked them like, okay, so what would you say contributes the most to your ability to be decisive? Like, what is it? And one of the things that many of them said over and over and over again was that they realize and they just accept that hardly any decision is permanent. And I'm like...

I'm kind of like, really? And you know what? That's true if you think about it. Now, it doesn't mean it didn't have consequences. It doesn't mean it might not take time. You cut bangs. That's not permanent. But if I could avoid the six weeks of growing back, that would be great. But people who are decisive, they just decide the risk is worth it. They say they would rather live with the comfort of having this decision made, even if it's not perfect, than with that

discomfort, like that tension, that liminal space between like knowing a decision needs to be made and actually making it. They don't like that feeling. And so they go ahead and make the call knowing that probably it's not going to be so permanent that they can't change their minds. That's huge. Yeah. See, whereas I feel like indecisive people maybe instead of

alleviating that pain by just making the decision. They alleviate the pain by avoiding... Avoiding the decision. Avoiding the decision. Yes, or putting it off. So let's discuss that. So how successful is avoiding making a decision? Like, can you get away with that? Because in my experience, you can't. You always ultimately have to make a decision. And then on top of that, what's your advice for people who avoid that feeling? Like, how do you... Is it reframing what that feeling means to you? Like, what...

How do you fix your relationship with that feeling? Well, I think, you know, you ask, can you be successful by avoiding the, like, is that a successful strategy? Yes.

And I think the first ever in life. Yeah. I think the first question would be, what do you mean by successful? You mean like, can you get away with it? Yeah. Can I go through life with, you know, basically that person is sort of opting out. Right. Of life. Yeah. In many ways. Yeah. If you have a lifestyle of avoiding. And listen, we know people like that. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been like that. Yeah. Well, we all. Yeah. We've all done it. Yeah. It's like. At some stage. Yes. And we don't. And you shudder because you don't like.

That feeling. It's horrible. You don't like that version of Emma. No. My God. It's like carrying around like a backpack of bricks and like it's terrible. Yeah. It's the heaviest weight. Right. The heaviest weight. It really is. Yeah.

Yeah, so I don't think you can get away with it. Yeah. So because of that, I think when we think about, okay, so I can't avoid this decision. I think the reason we do it, though, is – well, there's many reasons why many of us would do it. But speaking for myself, I want to avoid making the wrong decision. Yep. So it's thinking in binaries. Yep. There's a right and there's a wrong. And –

I'm a prayerful person, so I'll be like, God wants me to do a particular thing, but it's a secret. And I don't actually think God works that way, but I think in my mind, sometimes I fear that when I'm trying to make a decision. Of course. Or when it comes to any binary thing we think about, like there's a right and there's a wrong, there's a path this way and there's not. So I think that's one thing. We don't want to screw it up. I think also we're not only afraid of picking wrong, we're also afraid of being wrong, our identity. It's kind of in there like, I'm...

like a terrible person if I don't do this exactly right. And so I think what that person or what I'm looking for when I'm in that space and what would be helpful is some type of framework. Like I just need like some steps to follow because the steps are not going to fall from the sky of like, here's what you ought to do. Oh, yeah. And that's like what we want. Oh, my God. Yeah. Right. Yes. Yeah. So I'll give like the simple framework and then I'll give like the little bit

four-steppy framework that could be helpful maybe for anyone who might be like, I'm actually holding a decision right now. And I was supposed to decide last Tuesday and I haven't done it yet. The four part that's helpful for me is it starts with a practice called point and call, pointing and calling, which comes from the Japanese railway system actually. And they have this system called pointing and calling where it's very simple. All of the railway workers, they like have a job and their job is to point at like

what's happening and to call it out loud. And it's so simple. It's like the train is going the speed and they point it with their body and they say it with their voice. And it has reduced workplace errors by 85%. Wow. Which is wild, right? And I think we can do the same thing for decisions. And when I think pointing and calling can be something like, okay, if I'm deciding, for example,

Should I stay in this job or should I take this job opportunity? Should I stay in this room where I'm in or should I go into a different room? Pointing and calling like, well, what's true in this room?

What do you know? You don't know about the other one yet, but what do you know here? What's true about this space? Is this a space where I can be myself? Is this a space I chose or did it choose me? Is this a space where I'm avoiding some corners because there's some red or yellow flags over there and I don't want to look at them? Why not? How often is that happening? So pointing and calling when it comes to decision making is just a great first step. Like what's going on here? And just name it out loud. The thing that I think prevents me and I mean, I think a lot of people from sort of

making a move is figuring out intuition versus anxiety. What a nightmare. Like I, this is my, oh, like it is so, it's so bad because I am a very intuitive person. I tend to trust my gut, right? Yeah. But I'm also such an anxious person. Like, I mean, I am an anxious, anxious, anxious girl. It runs in the family. Me and my parents,

We love it. We love it. Actually, we hate it, but we're here we are. But I'm, but I am deeply intuitive. What have you noticed about intuition? Like when is it good to trust it? When is it just anxiety? I read something once about how your intuition won't scare you. Like it won't, it will feel smooth. Like you'll just glide into that decision when it's your intuition. Whereas when you're anxious, you're,

that's like, that's not intuition. Like, don't get those confused because it'll be so obvious when it's your intuition where, but I don't know if that's true though, because I've made, I've had an intuition about something and still struggled to make the decision. So what are your thoughts on intuition versus anxiety? How do we decipher which is which? And also how can we better tap into our intuition?

For making decisions. It's such a great question. And I think it's something that especially people who have a strong intuition, it's a great question to ask yourself. Yeah. Because a lot of times for many of us, fear and like the knowledge of knowing that I need to do the deeply right thing feel very similar at first.

And I think upon reflection, and that's speaking of kind of step two of this framework is looking back, is remembering your path, which is what you're doing now. You're thinking like, okay, well, when I've made this decision before, when I have had a really strong sense of intuition, but then I confused it like, is this intuition or is this fear? That there is a difference between the peace that comes from doing the deeply right thing and...

the peace that comes from avoiding something uncomfortable. And so at first they present themselves very similarly, that they, they both look like, um, I feel strongly, you have a strong sense of it. Right. But I was talking with Dr. Hillary McBride. She wrote a book called the wisdom of the body. And she talked about, you know, like if you have social anxiety, like you're somebody who like you, you go into a gathering, a party full of people and like you're, you feel a

sense of anxiety in that room. And so you leave the room because you're afraid and it's uncomfortable. You leave the room. And when you leave the room, you leave the party, your body feels better. Like it really does feel better. You feel a sense of relief. But she described that as that you weren't actually ever in danger. It was just it was just a sense that your body gave you that like, I need to get out of here. And so what happens is

The next time you're presented with a party or a gathering, your sense of fear might even be higher. And then your compulsion to leave is even stronger because you're like, I know how to feel better here. Yep. Is I'm going to avoid being uncomfortable. Yep. The problem with that is that

Everything that's good and right is not always comfortable. And so we have to do our work of self-awareness, of reflection, of work, talking to our people, of all those practices in the regular Tuesdays of life so that when the Saturday night decision comes, let's just say. Yes.

We have some muscle memory. Yeah. We have some like memory of what it feels like, the difference between the discomfort that comes from being truly unsafe. And this is not a great decision. Yep. Or just this is right for me, but I'm going to have to have a really difficult conversation I don't want to have. Yeah. Or I'm going to have to be uncomfortable.

alone or I'm going to move to a new place and it's going to be hard. Yeah. I could see why you might want to avoid that. But I would say that when you get really quiet and you get alone,

and you kind of are able to focus on how your body's feeling in a moment, I think we all know what it feels like when we're moving from a deep place of our inner knowing versus when we're moving from a frenetic place of our fear. Yes. But it takes practice. It so does. It so does. And it's also like touching the stove a few times and seeing that it's hot. Right. Like, is it still hot? Like, you know, there's so much of that because there are going to be times when you make decisions based on

anxiety that prevent you from, that actually make you feel worse long term. Long term. Like, for example, if you're socially anxious, it might feel good in the moment, you know, instant gratification to leave, but you'll find...

delayed gratification if you push through it and learn to be able to go and enjoy the party. You know what I mean? And like feel comfortable and safe in the party. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. One skill everyone can benefit from is learning how to take time for themselves. I have been implementing a lot of self-care rituals recently because I was not taking nearly enough time for myself and it was negatively impacting my brain.

One thing that I've done is not allowed myself to doom scroll on social media in my time spent alone. I find that that just ruins the recharging benefits of being alone. I've been making more time to read books, do art and exercise because I find that all of those things make my alone time even more effective in terms of recharging.

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Head to squarespace.com slash Emma for a free trial and use code Emma to save 10% on your first purchase. Do you think that intuition is a reliable source? How reliable is intuition? Like in my experience, I mean, I don't know. Cause it's like when you tell someone to trust their gut

It's like, is that even good advice? Like it could be your genuine truest intuition. And it could steer you wrong. Yeah. Like, so it's like, do we trust? I mean, I think there's actually a spiritual element to intuition for sure. Yeah. Where it's like, this is my deeper knowing calling me to whatever I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, regardless of if that's even what I think I want. Like, so, yeah. What are your thoughts on that? Well, I think anything that we say, is it is it bad to trust this? I think the follow up is, well, I think anything we put in that blank is.

Spirit alone maybe is not enough information. And so I would say that I do think there can be a spiritual element to it where it's like, it's not just me alone, that there is spirit, that there is, you know, I use God language, that there is, you know, God, divine love with me.

And that therefore it's not all up to me to figure out my life because that's a lot of pressure. But as I cultivate my own spirituality, my own life with God, my own life with those who love and know me, that intuition, I think a lot of us, it's not so much that we don't trust our intuition. We actually don't know how. We don't even bring it to the table because some of us have been told like you can never trust your gut.

Like you can never trust yourself. And so those people who have experienced life in that way have to learn to bring themselves to the table. And so anything, I don't think I would ever say, trust your heart alone, follow your heart alone, follow your gut alone, follow your thoughts alone. Like anything alone is probably not the best idea. But I think that we can have that be a data point in our world of decision-making. It's a tool. I think if we measure...

our ability to trust our intuition or our heart or whatever only based on the results I think that we won't always have an accurate measure of because sometimes you can you can trust your gut you can trust your heart you can trust your people you can trust God you can do all the things and it still turns out terribly like we said and it was still the right thing to do right like it could have still been the right thing to do or the best the deeply right thing for you in that moment even if it didn't turn out yeah so instead of having that be the judge it's like

Does trusting my intuition help me become the person that I believe I'm meant to be? Yes or no? And hopefully, yes. But not, again, not in a vacuum, not to the exclusion of everything else. Yeah. That sort of made me think about deeply emotional decisions. Like what comes to mind for me is like removing yourself from a friend group, you know, moving out of your hometown, breaking up with a significant other, you know, and

Those decisions are so deeply emotional, usually in one extreme or the other, right? You know, going through a breakup, you might be like, I know deep down that, or maybe you don't, maybe you don't, but you're like, I, it's not going well, but I don't want this to end. Like I would do anything for this not to end. How do those types of just all consuming emotions impact

the way that we make decisions. When it's like one of those unavoidable, full body, like consuming decisions. I've found when I am deeply emotionally invested in a space, a person, a thing,

I do think it's harder to make a clear decision in the midst of that emotionality. I do think if you can get the tiniest distance from it, it's always going to be better. Like buy yourself as much time as possible. Yeah. But I don't think you're to despise your heart. You know, sometimes it's like,

sometimes I'm like, oh, if only I wasn't so such a feeler, I could be clear headed about this. But, you know, clear headed, that's even language that we use. It's like, if I could have a clear head. Yeah. But, you know, that's not always the way like we're human people. Yeah. But I do think that

Having small practices that you can do, like, for example, what's just one next right thing you can do? You might not be able to make the final decision today about moving from your hometown or breaking up with the love of your life or whatever. But what's one next right thing that you can do? And I think that breaks it down a little bit to where it's like, I'm not making the final decision, but I'm just going to do one thing today. Maybe it's take a nap.

Maybe it's like drink some water. No, that's actually for me. Like really small things. Taking a nap. Yeah. It sounds so wild. No, it doesn't. But it has been. Sometimes that is so what it is. Yeah. It's like, are you just hungry, Emma? Yeah. No, actually. Do you need food? That can really make a difference. Are you dehydrated? Did you sleep enough? No, it is interesting how like it can be the smallest little, because sometimes a nap

will help level out your emotions. That's right. It'll like, and it will give you that distance that you need and it'll give your brain that, that rest. You know, sometimes it's calling a loved one, but it is true that, you know, my dad always tells me to make a plan.

And it's kind of that. Yeah. But it's even easier than that. It's a tiny plan. It's a tiny plan. Yeah. It's just the next. Yes. And I think, too, knowing and this is, you know, your dad's giving you some great advice. My dad's giving me some great advice. He once told me that 51 49 is still a decision. And we want every decision we make to be 100 percent. Yes. And zero percent. No. But as we look at all the data, our heart, our mind, our

everything included, we might come out to be like, I want both of these things. But I...

sense that this one is just like 2% more. Those are the toughest ones. The toughest. Because there's so many things on the other side. That's 49% of the things that we think are great. Yeah. But it's still a call we have to make as grownups, unfortunately. And we do. And what we have to do then is we need to grieve the 49%. We got to name it. We got to take what we can with us, leave what we can't bring, leave it behind and

And learn to fully invest 100% in that 51% yes. Yeah. How do you recommend handling that grief of that 49%? You know, let's say you go with the 51%. And let's say actually that is the better decision for you, right? Even if it is the right decision, I think when it is a close call like that.

The experience of grieving the 49% can then make you resent, you know, the 51% choice. And I think that is something that, you know, is hard to manage. Is it sort of going into every decision knowing that you're going to lose something and accepting that as a part of it? Like, how does one manage that grief so that it doesn't make them...

resent their choice? This question is so important. I wrote a whole book about it. It's called How to Walk Into a Room. And the subtitle is The Art of Knowing When to Stay and When to Walk Away. And the whole thing of it is there are those decisions that are, I mean, when I talk to people across the board, the decisions that are the hardest are deciding to go or stay.

To leave this thing behind or to walk away. Yes. Or to stay in this room and make a difference, right? Like what's it going to take for me to stay here? What if I leave and everything falls apart? What if I stay and nothing changes? And so what you're talking about is when you walk into that next room, the one that might truly be meant for you, how do I let go of the last one? Yes. Like how do I leave that behind? Yes. And it's an excellent question. It's such a formative question because the way we walk into a room is unthinkable.

almost entirely dependent on how we left the last one. Yeah. And, you know, we bring that stuff with us and nobody walks into a room like as a blank slate. Like we bring our stories with us. We bring our narratives with us. We bring, you know, we all can have in the same room. We all can have a shared experience, but we don't have the same experience. We all have our own experience because we're bringing the last stuff with us. And so I think for me, it really has been, I mean, I talk about lists and I don't make pro con lists as much, but I do make lists of like

what are the gifts of that room? Like truly, like I write it down, like here's if it hadn't been for that room or that potential room, like let's say the one I said no to, like

what are the things that were gifts there that I'm bringing with me? Like, like I'm a different person because of that space or even doing it for the room you're walking into. Like, what are the gifts of this room that would not have been in that 49% room? Like, what do I have here? And then also naming, like, what am I leaving? Like, what are the things that I'm like, real glad to be done with? Because those things are good to remember. Because you know how it is, like when you make a call, like, you know, you look, you look around a space, you're like,

Oh, there's things that I don't like. There's red flags. I'm going to get out of here. And then as soon as you make that call, you're like, oh, but it had this and that. Always. Oh, it was so great. Always. You remember all that stuff. Yes. So don't deny it. Like, I think we have this tendency of when we make a decision, especially if it was tough, we want to paint that last space or that decision that we – the call we didn't make in like –

all villainous colors. Like, well, it was going to be terrible and it was awful. And those people were the worst. And I'm so glad to be done with them. But in reality, that's just not true. Nobody is just one thing. No room is just one thing. Totally. So just being honest about your experience, about what it was, about what you are, who you are now. And I think grief is a thing that, I mean, just like we don't know how to listen, we don't know how to grieve.

And I think learning like, you know what? It's OK to be sad. Feel your feelings. It doesn't mean you chose wrong just because you're sad. Yeah. But also maybe I mean, some of us let go of things that we were really good at. Like I worked really hard to get in that space. And even though it was the right thing for me to leave it or to not leave.

go down that path anymore. It's really hard and you can feel like, you know, like, well, at least in America, we don't like to waste our time. And so we think like, did I waste all my time in that space with those people or trying to get that degree or working so hard? It's like, no, you did it. Yeah.

You did the thing. Yeah. And you got what you needed from it. And now it's time to move on. But I think, you know, just because you're good at something doesn't mean you have to do it forever. Totally. And I think that's something that we don't have a lot of concept for. Yeah. It's like, no, I'm skilled at this. This is my thing forever. Yeah. Sometimes we're being invited to be a beginner and to start again. We don't like that. We like new beginnings. Yeah. Those are fantastic. Okay.

of course but being a beginner like I happen to ask where the bathroom is and like not knowing my passcode and all the things like being new we don't like that I think it's also too that we think we're not gonna like it like we like we dread it we dread it right I think a lot of times like it's like that with a new job like you're like oh I don't want to get a new job because yeah I don't want to I don't want to embarrass myself and ask you know questions that might be considered dumb to the people who are higher up blah blah but then you end up

There's so much room for excitement and fulfillment there that you forget about. You forget about it. You break up with somebody and then you start dating. You're like, oh, I don't want to date around again. And then you start dating around again and then you start something new with somebody and you're like, this is actually really exciting. I'm having fun in the beginning. It's like we tend to dread...

these, these sorts of things. And it's not always, yeah, sometimes the beginning does suck and you know, that's fair. But there are also times when it looks a lot worse in our brain than it's actually going to be. It totally does. And we have to let it sort of show itself to us in a way. Yeah. That actually just made me think about sort of preconceived ideas about things, right? Like we, we all have just based on our life experience and

you know, who we are, we have these sort of sorts of ideas about what this is going to be like, what that's going to be like. And they're often not accurate. No. How important is it to, you know, I think this directly relates to decision making because it's like those, those sorts of ideas that we let fester and exist there. How important is it to go in and check on those? I mean, what you're kind of describing is,

the narratives that we have about ourselves, about the world around us, about and they're they are powerful. There's a philosopher, Dallas Willard, who says that we all live what we believe. We just don't live what we say we believe. So true. Like we say, well, oh, yeah, I believe in whatever the thing is. But then like we actually live what we truly believe. Yes. And so that's kind of what you're talking about. And those are deeply rooted.

And and your whole life you'll spend like discovering them because we don't it's like a fish in water. Like we don't know that's a narrative that's been formed. We just think that's reality. Yes. Because that's my reality. That's why it's so sneaky. It's very sneaky. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Totally. For example, I was asked to teach at a graduate level class.

class it was I I don't really feel like I had business doing that but I was invited to do it that's a narrative you see like I was invited to teach at the school that I graduated from for a week-long graduate class for these for students and my first response was like yeah that's so that would be amazing like my first response was fantastic idea my second response was uh-oh I'm gonna have to do it

Like, I'm going to have to do this. And that's going to be deeply uncomfortable. And it's going to challenge all of my own self-confidence and all of my insecurities because the other people who teach have like these, you know, they're like went to Yale and Princeton and all these smart schools. And I'm like just me. And I remember that's when popped up a narrative, right? I'm a sign language interpreter by trade. And so this is the sign that popped up. But there it was, was like, oh, this, this. And it often comes like in your own voice, like a first person, like,

I'm not good enough to do that or I'm not smart enough to do that or whatever the thing is. We have them all the time. Like we all – we walk into a room and we're wondering like what are they thinking of me? And so that was a moment when I had to kind of –

take the invitation for what it was. I had to go outside of myself. And this is where I would say when it comes to like being aware of your own stories, sometimes that you think it's intuition, like my intuition says you can't do that, but that's like a negative, that's a negative.

thing. Yes. Right. I don't think our intuition shames us. No. Right. No. And I think instead it invites. I think there's an invitational piece to intuition. And so that's when I had to get outside of my own head, my own story and say this person whose program it is, is inviting me to do a thing

And so the belonging is in the invitation. So even if I feel all the things on the inside, that's my own work to do. But I'm not going to act. I'm not going to move out of that space. Yes. I might feel it. I'm going to have to deal with that maybe in therapy, maybe with my besties or whoever. Yeah. But that's not where I'm going to make my moved decision from. I'm going to be like...

I'll discern it and figure it out. And then I'm like, yes, I would like to do that. Thank you very much for the invitation. Yeah. So it's almost even on a case by case basis. I think it is because you don't know what might be in there until something happens to kind of wake it up. Absolutely. Oh, it is so it's so sneaky, but it is also so satisfying when you realize that you have one. Yeah. And then you're like,

This is awesome because being aware of it is actually the hardest part. So once you're aware of it, yes, it's hard to combat it, but I think

The awareness is key. And just being, you know, every decision that you have to make, paying attention to yourself. It's almost like watching yourself make the decision. Yeah. Can teach you so much. So much. There's so much to learn from. Yes. And that's a pointing and calling practice. Like, really. Yes. Oh, here's a here's a narrative point at it. Call it out loud. Yeah. Half the battle's over. Yep. So true. Like, what about when someone's stuck? Right.

We all fall into a period every once in a while where we just feel stuck and we don't know why. And upon thinking about that, I think most of the time when you feel stuck, it's because you have a few decisions that you're not making. Yeah. Like that's always what it is. Always. And they're not ones that are timely and they're not ones that are so loud that you can't actually hear.

sometimes like sometimes there can be a really big decision festering yeah big life change but you're like subconsciously avoiding it so it's not even loud yet like you're not even looking at it oh I've done that like my body almost knew before me that like I felt stuck and I couldn't figure out what it was and it was because I had a decision to make somewhere right so what's your advice for people feeling stuck like what is you know how do you figure out

what the next right thing to do is. Well, two things come to mind. We mentioned earlier this framework that I think for someone who's stuck, it's so helpful to first point and call. Remember your past decisions you've made. What did you learn? Acknowledge presence. Who's with you? Who can you trust? Who can you depend on?

we don't go alone through these decisions. And then finally yield to the arrows. And what that is, is you're describing someone who's desperate for maybe an answer, but they don't actually even know what the question is. Yes. Right? Yes. And so I would say that rather than demanding an answer before it's time, how can you yield to the arrows? And what I mean by that is, first of all, if you can't put your decision into a sentence,

you're not ready to make the decision yet. There's no decision to make. But we feel this like, oh, if only I could resolve this discomfort. We don't like it. And so we think like if I just make a call, if someone can just give me like a bearing or some like we almost want a deadline because then we'd have to make a decision, but we don't know what the decision is yet. And so this is the worst, but you might just have to wait.

Interesting. The worst, right? You don't want to hear that. That's true. But I do think that like this smoky like stuckness, I would challenge someone in that space, though, if you go through the process of pointing and calling what's true right now.

Of remembering your past decisions, of acknowledging who's with me here, I'm not alone. Like once you get to that doing action step, you might actually not feel so stuck anymore. Now, you might not know the final decision. Yep. But you might know one next right thing. Yep. And so there's not – and I think we can often get stuck with that phrase, like do the next right thing. It's like we get stuck on the word right. Like, but what is right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would just encourage you to think instead of the word next. Right.

Like just what's the next thing? Yeah. Just the next thing today. And again, it could be it could be a phone call. It could be a question to someone you trust. It could be like we said, a nap, brush your teeth, have some tea or coffee, whatever it is, you know, like, you know, just, you know, maybe that. But I think we can over complicate decision making because it feels so deeply important. I mean, it is so deeply important. Yeah. But I don't think the stakes are always as high as we make them. This episode is brought to you by Bumble.

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So sort of pivoting to soul minimalism. Ooh, let's do it. Tell me about what a soul minimalist is and how...

in the world do you become one? Well, we all know the word minimalism. You know, this is like, you know, we're trying to get rid of the things that don't matter and elevating the things that do. You know, I think a lot of us maybe imagine if you're a minimalist, you own seven things and you live in an empty cold house. Well, it's like those full guru vibes. So I'm going back to the gurus. Right, right. Yes. Right. And so we have that idea. But then this idea of your soul, like your inner life, what's happening beneath the surface, what's happening on the inside. When you think about

like the way we accumulate stuff

In our physical spaces, we're always having input. Like holidays, you know, we have a birthday, we get gifts, we go shopping, we travel, we do things. There's always input. And then when we like drive ourselves nuts because our closets are full, we're like, we have a spring cleaning day, we take everything to donations. Like I got to get this output, right? We know the input, we know the output in our physical spaces. When it comes to soul minimalism, the question is,

We are always receiving input on the inside, on the level of our soul. A conversation you had this morning, an appointment you just got back from, something that bothered you that you didn't have the time to name because you were in a hurry, but it's like there on the inside and it impacts the conversations you have later in the day. By the time you lay your head down on the pillow at night, you have been accumulating reactions, responses, information, invitations, junk, advertisements, all over.

day long. And the question is, where's the output? And so what it means to be a soul minimalist, there's not a club. I do have a Substack newsletter called The Soul Minimalist, which you can find, but you can be one right now. And all it is, is how can I begin to develop some practices of a regular practice of output on the inside? Because this is stuff we're carrying around with us all the time. And if we don't have a way to release some of it,

We're just going to be we're going to be a ball of nerves everywhere we go. Yeah. And the thing is, is everything we're carrying impacts the decisions that we make. Yeah. It impacts the interactions that we have. And so what might it look like to release some of that? And a couple of things that come to mind for me are silence and stillness and solitude are to the soul as decluttering is to the home.

Totally. Yes. And it can be an uncomfortable practice. You're like, so I just sit in silence for five minutes. Yeah. And I would say yes. Yeah. You do. You try it. You can do it comfortably. That's what I do. Right. Right. Yes. I've been craving that. Like when you said that, I was like, oh, like sitting alone, quiet. I think you get to a point where you crave it. Yeah. I feel like I might be a soul. Like I, I crave that output and I don't know how I came to that conclusion, but

I think that there's so much value, though, to like understanding what you're doing. Sure. Because I've never understood like what I was doing. Yeah. Or why I needed it. Uh-huh. Like I literally texted someone today and I said, I need to stare at the wall. You do. All day tomorrow. Yep. It's interesting how your brain just starts sorting, sorting, sorting. And as you sort things out, your body can send them out.

That's right. You know what I mean? Yes. It's a practice of release. I'm curious, how do you, in your own life, how do you recognize that you need some wall-steering time? Like, what are your tells? Yeah. Really bad anxiety. Because...

my brain is cluttered. Yeah. Right. So I'm like, I'm on edge because I don't feel like I have my finger on the pulse of everything I need to have my finger on the pulse of. Right. There are things piling up in the peripheral. I don't I don't love having too much in the peripheral. Yeah. So and when I see that cluttering up on the sides, I'm like, and I feel that and I know not everything's getting attended to. That creates anxiety for me. So when the anxiety starts to go up,

I know. Wow. I know. You know, when it starts to go up, it is no mystery to me. Also, irritability even. I can be irritable. I can like snap at my parents or maybe not enjoying social things. Like I don't want to go out with friends. I want everyone to leave me alone. And sometimes it's like, oh, well, we don't always have time to go stare at the wall. Like sometimes it's, you know, especially –

I especially think of new parents. Like I have a lot of people in my life where, you know, they just had kids, right? And I see them and it's like they wake up

kids go to work, kids head hits the pillow up, kids they have not a minute. It's so important to find the time though for that output. And I think we all can, but we, it's so easy to be like, but I need to go on my Instagram explore page because there's so much fun stuff, but that is a form of input, right? It is a form. I mean, that's a horrible form of input. Like when you do it too much, it's so bad. What's your, how do you know when you need

When you need to. Are you the same? Like, I think what you described is very similar. So I had twins. I had two babies at one time. Yes. I brought them with me. Maybe you can meet them. They're fantastic. But let me just tell you that when I had two human people who I was in charge of.

Talk about input. Oh, my God. Like, I hardly remember their whole first year of life. I don't blame you. Because it was just constant. Like, as soon as you, like, feel like you've got one person's needs met, you're like, oh, the other one needs something. Unbelievable. And it was wonderful and a gift and all the things. And also, there's, like, two years of a blur. And so I say that to say a couple things to – especially if, like, there's a –

if there's a new parent listening, that there's so much grace for that season of life. I think there's so much more grace than you can. You can't plan for it and you can't get it a minute sooner. You can't store it up either. It just, it comes when you need it. I would also say that when it comes to being a soul minimalist, it actually might take less time than you think. That we think like, if I could get a week away, then I could recharge and show up for my life again. And that's very rare that we get a week away.

But I would say there can a lot can happen in five minutes. And I literally set my timer for five minutes, like on my phone. I will grab my phone. I will set my timer for five minutes and I will set it down and I will say, you don't have to do anything in this five minutes. Like you don't have to do anything. Yeah. But you can't do anything else. Yeah. Right. So it's like there's no assignment during this time. The assignment is to be. Yeah. You just be a person.

And you get those five minutes because probably even the busiest working full time, new parent, all the responsibilities can probably find five minutes. Oh, yeah. And of that five minutes, that's not scrolling. That's not doing a thing to be productive. We have such like this idea that I have to be productive at all times. And if I have five minutes, I should be doing something. Yeah. But let me tell you, just...

Tell yourself you are decluttering on the inside and let that be you're doing something. Write it on your to-do list if you need to, like decluttering time. And then you can check it off when you're done. And then it feels like I did something. But I think that that five-minute timer can go a really long way. And if you have 10 minutes, you can do 10 minutes. It's amazing what that much silence can do for you. Well, yeah.

It's just so rare. Yeah. And there's also other times too that you can even find it. Like I know when I'm in the car, if I'm not, I love being in the car driving and I'm on, you know, I'm calling someone or I'm like, you know, listening to a podcast or I'm listening to music and people think this is very bizarre of me, but.

I will sometimes turn everything off. Yeah. No noise. Obviously I'm driving. So I'm focused on the driving. It's not like I'm doing nothing, but in Los Angeles we have traffic. I'm sitting in traffic and I'll easily get five minutes of no movement. No. So it's like, you can get creative even with where you find that time. Do you think the brain during these moments of like five minutes of silence, stillness, you know, solitude, do you think that

Do you think the brain just sort of does what it needs to do? Have you noticed that? Or do you think that there is a need to sort of figure out what you're going to do with that time? Or is that in itself...

ruining the practice. I think it can. I think that in itself, but I think practicing it imperfectly is better than not practicing it at all. Totally. So even if you overthink it, okay, overthink it for the first 10 times, but eventually you're going to calm down and it's going to be okay. But I do think neurologically speaking though, I am not a brain scientist, but I know this much, is that when we take deep breaths, it sends a signal to our bodies, to our actual nervous system that we're safe. Because if you think about it, like

When we are not safe, our breathing gets like – I listened to your episode about the scariest night of your life. Yes. And like how your body was telling you that you were in grave danger. Yes. You weren't, but you didn't know that. Yes. Yeah. And so your breathing was probably really shallow and like you were breathing quickly. But only when you calmed down, your body started breathing more normally. Yeah. And then your body calmed down. Yeah. Because you got the signal that everything's okay. Yeah.

Yes. And we can trick – we can do that because sometimes we go through our lives low-key terrified. Oh, yeah. Every day. Oh, yeah. And so having those five minutes of deep breathing even can just be like for your brain. It's like a brain bath. It's like, oh, okay, I'm going to be okay. Especially when you're anxious. Especially when you're – it's like the only solution when you're anxious is just breathe. It's so –

my anxiety recently, I go through like ebbs and flows and like recently, and sometimes I can't even explain it, high. But it's fine. It's fine. But recently it's just been so high, but not even in a conscious way. It's just in a bodily way. Sure. Like there's a lot in the peripheral. There's just a lot happening. A lot of input. And

I can't tell you how many times per day I'm like, we're going to deep breathe now for three minutes. You're doing it. And you do get back into it. That's something that is coming with maturity for me is like not laughing at these sort of small, easy things like deep breathe. Like when my mom used to say, take a deep breath, I'd be like,

Shut up. What are you talking about? That does nothing. I was like, what? I need more. I need stronger. It's so, you know, I think part of maturing is realizing that these things are not, they're not, they work. You know what I mean? I think a lot of people and myself included when I was younger, just sort of shrugged off things that seem too easy. Right. Seem too obvious. Totally. Yeah. And we do that a lot. We do.

We get in our own way by looking at things that seem too obvious and not giving them the proper attention. And so...

Oh, I am so excited. I'm going to give myself a really good five minutes. I can't wait for you. I really didn't get a good five minutes this week. Like I did not. And I think we both deserve a five minutes today. Amen, sister. Amen. That was amazing. I learned so much from you today. Oh, good. I'm so glad. It was so amazing. And I can't wait to meet your twins. So great. Oh, good. I would love to meet you. This episode is brought to you by Hydro Flask.

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