The Cigar Girl PT 1
58:48 Share

This is exactly right. Experience the glamour and danger of the roaring 20s from the palm of your hand in

In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s

while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists, turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club. There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out.

You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

On July 11, 2002, J.C. McGee was shot and killed in the doorway of his home in Ohio. For 22 years, the case remained unsolved until his daughter Madison started asking questions. This

This is the journey of a daughter searching for answers, for closure, and for justice, and figuring out exactly what that means as she uncovers some dark truths that have been hidden from her. As far as podcasts go, it doesn't get more personal than this. From Tenderfoot TV, Ice Cold Case is available now. Listen for free on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Kate Winkler-Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the last 25 years writing about true crime. And I'm Paul Holes, a retired cold case investigator who's worked some of America's most complicated cases and solved them. Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling true crimes. And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new insights to old mysteries.

Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime cases through a 21st century lens. Some are solved and some are cold. Very cold. This is Buried Bones. ♪♪

Hey, Paul. Hi, Kate. How are you? I'm doing really well. I have a big announcement, big-ish announcement. I'm sure you'll be excited to hear about the show that you and I really connected on. The inspiration for Buried Bones is back. Wicked Words is back. Oh, okay. Tenfold More Wicked has concluded at...

after 12 seasons. It's such a wonderful show, but it was really time to retire it so I could concentrate more on Wicked Words and Buried Bones. And so with Wicked Words coming back, it's just really nice and fresh, and it's filled with loads of interviews with different writers and producers. So it's exciting for me that it's back finally.

Well, I don't know how you were able to keep up with all the various different podcasts and projects that you have. Same. Now that you can focus in on Wicked Words, I bet that will be awesome and such a relief to just try to, you know, hone in and get all the interviews done that you do. And I have fond memories of that time that you interviewed me. Oh, well, thank you.

Tenfold More Wicked was my first. It was my gateway drug to get into podcasting because that was so much of my background was documentary, audio, fusing the two.

It was great to be able to do six episodes into a deep dive into a story. But I also love a show like Wicked Words and, of course, Buried Bones, where I can talk to a writer, an author, a filmmaker, a podcaster about one story all contained and kind of get a really good overview and ask some questions. So it's just totally different types of shows. But Tenfold was really, you know, I put so much of my heart and everything into it.

And as I started adding on other projects, it just became too much for me to do. It's still going to be available in the feed, in the Tenfold More Wicked and Wicked Words feed. So you'll still be able to listen to past seasons. But it was time to say goodbye and really time to expand on Wicked Words and Buried Bones and be able to really pay attention to those two shows. So I'm grateful for Tenfold, but grateful to also be able to pivot with Exactly Right on the other two shows.

Oh, boy. So you're going to be more focused on buried bones, which means I'm going to be having more work listening to the stories, right? Get ready, buddy. Get ready. If you thought you were overloaded now, just wait.

Yeah, I mean, I love this type of show. I love kind of being able to sample true crime. And what's great about Wicked Words, actually, is that I have contemporary crimes. I mean, I've already interviewed people about the Alec Murdoch case. And so that is not restricted to the 1800s or the early 1900s or even further back. I interview people from all different kinds of backgrounds, covering all different kinds of cases in all different time periods. So

It's exciting for it to be back. People really respond well to it. And so I'm happy to have it back. But I'm also happy to be here with you on Buried Bones because we're going to be diving into basically 1830s and 1840s New York, which is such a great time period and a big old mystery for you. I don't think you've read up on this time period very much. Nope, not at all. So I'm sure you're going to have a surprise or two for me as we get going.

I think so. I think so. Okay, so let's head down to New York. Let's go ahead and set the scene. This is a significant case in history, Paul, and it's a case I had heard of before, and a book has been written about it, which we use as a reference, and it was a really good book called The Beautiful Cigar Girl. So this is a story that probably some of our listeners have heard. If you're a true crime history geek, you've probably heard of the story of Mary Rogers, right?

This is a two-parter. I know you're going to ask me pretty quickly about injuries and wounds and all of that. I have a lot of information there too, thankfully. Okay. But I'm going to warn you, this is a story, for those of you who have heard this story before, there is misinformation everywhere, all over the place.

Throughout history, the story of Mary Rogers has had things added to it that have been fictionalized. And so our goal really is to tease out the truth, as always, with these stories. And I'm going to concentrate on some pretty specific things. So I can't wait to hear your reaction to this story. It'll be interesting. Okay. Well, let's get this party going then.

All right. So the main character we have here is Mary Rogers. This is going to be our victim. She has a complicated life. Boy, I feel like I say that phrase a lot about her. Do I say that or do I need to find a new phrase to say rather than this victim has had a complicated life or is that pretty clear to you? No, you know, I think it's just it really underscores everybody's life is complex. Right.

But now some of these complexities don't necessarily lead into the person becoming a victim, whereas other complexities do. So when I'm hearing you say that Mary had a complicated life, sounds like there's going to be some victimology that I'm going to want to learn about. Yes. And hopefully I have enough information to sustain you here. I always...

feel like, man, I wish I can offer more and more and more. And sometimes we have plenty. And in this case, it's interesting because there is a lot of mystery here. It is officially unsolved. Oh, okay. So, see, you guys can't see this. He completely perked up. His shoulders actually went back up.

And you got a big smile on your face. So that's good. I wish I could. Now I know I need more of these unsolved cases. Well, you know, that's always been my wheelhouse is to find the unsolved because I kind of like to roll my sleeves up and think, well, I can at least possibly either solve a case if I'm actively working it or advance the case. I always feel that if I dig into an unsolved case, I will leave it better off than before I started it.

Cat people would do anything for their precious furry family friend, but there are things we simply cannot do, like read their little cat minds. And even if we could, they'd probably tell us to mind our business and buy pretty litter. Pretty litter is the next big thing

thing to mind reading. The ultra-absorbent crystals change color to monitor early signs of potential illnesses like a urinary tract infection or kidney issues. This litter also instantly traps odor, minimizes mess, and lasts up to a month. That means less scooping and trips to the trash and more time to give them treats and head rubs. Pretty Litter also ships free to your door in a small, lightweight bag.

Stop lugging those bulky containers from the car to your house. I have friends who use Pretty Litter and they love the no dust aspect of it because they have allergies and so it's really helpful for them. Pretty Litter helps keep tabs on your cat's health and keeps odor down. You and your cat are going to love Pretty Litter.

Go to prettylitter.com slash buried and use code buried to save 20% off your first order. That's prettylitter.com slash buried. Code buried to save 20%. Prettylitter.com slash buried. Code buried. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. Okay, we'll start from her birth. So her name is Mary Cecilia Rogers. She was born in 1820.

in Connecticut. She comes from two different prominent New England families, but she loses several of her older siblings as well as her father when she's very young. I've written about many women in this situation too. They come from wealthy families and then a lot of people die around them.

And then they're not given the financial support. Oftentimes, the men in the family, even men who are not directly involved in the family but are just part of the family, are given the purse strings. And so the women are left to be given money doled out. And if you have a jerk for a great uncle, you might not get the same opportunities. And so we will sometimes find in history that

women who come from wealthier families who are left nearly destitute when they lose the patriarch of the family, which is such a sad situation, you know? Yeah, I guess I didn't realize that in terms of, you know, that's a part of the culture in the past that I can see where somebody who you would think because of maybe the family affluence, you know, they would have a stable life. And yet, due to these circumstances beyond their control,

Sounds like some of them can end up quite destitute. Yeah. And it's interesting. I really started reading about that

situation in society in the 1800s with the very first Tenfold More Wicked about Edward Ruloff, a little part of his history, you know, my genius killer, was that he came from a middle-class farming family in Canada. And when his father died, his uncle was the one who controlled the money, not his mother, who was still alive. His mother wanted him to go to college and

And his uncle said, no, you're going to go to like a trade school. You're going to go apprentice somewhere. And Edward Ruloff really wanted to be an academic. And his uncle said, sorry, you can go be a printmaker or do something else. He didn't think it was practical. And he was the one in charge. The father did not leave the money to his wife. He left it to his, I think it was his brother or maybe his great uncle or his own uncle himself. So

That's when I really started thinking about, you know, women and their position in the 1800s with money. That wasn't always the case, but it sounds like this was the case in Mary Rogers' family when that happened. So this death of the father, Mary's father, and several older siblings leaves Mary and her mother, whose name is Phoebe, on their own. And Phoebe's

And Phoebe becomes the sole provider. And this sort of ushers in an interesting time period for the family. There are some tough economic times in the '30s, 1830s, and Phoebe and Mary need to head to New York for work. And Mary is now a teenager. This is an explosive time in New York. I've written about this before. A population comes. There's some immigration. New York becomes known as an economic hotspot.

And that's why the Rogers family goes there. And the issue is, that plays a little bit into this story, is that, you know, New York, not surprisingly, has come to attract a lot of criminal and gang activity. So you've got, I'm presuming, a young mother. I don't actually know Phoebe's age. A young mother coupled with her teenage daughter who are moving into a city, and it doesn't sound like they have a lot of financial resources.

And, you know, this becomes a dangerous situation for them. And already I'm feeling like Mary is sort of a ready-made victim for people in this city. Yeah. So, I mean, if they're lacking some financial resources, you know, what kind of neighborhood do they move into? What kind of residence do they move into? Is it like a multifamily type of dwelling? So what ends up happening is they go to downtown Manhattan, which...

I'm telling you, Paul, I mean, I studied downtown Manhattan in this time period because that's when Edward Ruloff lived down there. I mean, he kind of went back and forth between upstate New York and Manhattan, but there could be brothels, there could be taverns, there could be townhouses. It just depended on literally on the block. So Phoebe decides to get a job. She successfully gets a job as a domestic servant, and then she operates a boarding house.

in downtown Manhattan when Mary is a teenager. This boarding house turns out to be what makes Mary's life complicated because she's exposed to a lot of different people, young men who she gets involved with. And this turns into a little bit of a Melrose Place situation where you have a lot of people living in a close proximity and it creates some drama.

But I'll get a little bit more into that. I just want to place this in your mind that she turns out to be a very attractive, I mean, like the papers go on and on about how attractive this woman is, young woman. And when the story really kicks in is when she's 21.

as a young woman, and she attracts a lot of attention in this boarding house because it's mostly male lodgers. And all of a sudden, you know, I become a little bit alarmed for Mary. It's certainly her mother, but really Mary, because I think she's getting a lot of attention, and it might not all be wanted attention. Think about this. So you have, I imagine, a fairly transient population of boarders that are constantly coming and going.

This is in the 1830s. It's not like background checks are being done on these guys.

I'm sure there were some bad individuals that were inside this boarding house. And they, of course, are seeing this young girl, attractive girl. You know, of course, alarm bells are going off in terms of knowing Mary ultimately becomes a victim. Is there a suspect pool from inside this boarding house? Without knowing anything about what happened to Mary, it just does indicate that where she's living, nothing that she's done, but it elevates her risk of

because of who is flowing through this dwelling. I agree. And she becomes even more exposed in a second, and to me, in a kind of an alarming way. So, you know, remember, this is a woman who's been described as, I'll just tell you, I mean, this is a gross description, from the historical crime detective, which is describing her as rather tall, exquisitely tall,

symmetrical form. Her features were regular. Her complexion was beautiful, and she had a wealth of jet black hair. So she stands in stark contrast to, I guess what you would say would be the average woman in downtown New York at the time who would have been probably lower class, maybe middle class.

And she really stands apart. She also happens to be very charming, and she seems to be quite bright. And her personality, which is vivacious, really has drawn the attention, you'll find out in a minute, from the media in downtown Manhattan who post about her social comings and goings.

You know, the penny presses in the 1800s really liked to talk about society people who I would not consider Mary Rogers a society-type person when she's just, you know, in a boarding house with her mother trying to tend to things. But because she was so attractive and sort of woman about town in this part of town, people...

People would write about her, you know, what she was doing socially, where she was going, but all the time referred to as beautiful before her name. Beautiful Mary Rogers, beautiful Mary Rogers. So that's where we stand. So it sounds like she has a level of celebrity. She does. Even though she's not, you know, in the entertainment world, she's not in government affairs, right?

It's just because of how she looks. Yep. Wow. I know. And now we're going to get to a situation where she's even more exposed to the public. So there is just a little quick reference here. We have a book, probably the most well-known book, called The Beautiful Cigar Girl. And it's by an author named Daniel Strashauer. And I'll point out when we use some of his information because he has some really good historical documents that he worked off of.

If your summer schedule includes outdoor activities, chances are you'll be showing a bit more skin. And nothing complements a nice tan more than a close shave. Let us introduce you to Athena Club. Athena Club's razors glide effortlessly thanks to their five patented blades. The blades are surrounded by a super moisturizing, water-activated sealant.

serum with hyaluronic acid and avocado oil that hydrates as you shave. Plus, it has built-in skin guards that help prevent razor burn and reduce irritation. That means no more ingrowns. This razor is dermatologist approved. No wonder it was voted the best razor for sensitive skin by Vogue.

And the Athena razor kit is also an absolute steal at just $10. But don't let the price fool you. This razor feels expensive. Say goodbye to razor burn and goopy blade heads. And hello to the smoothest shave ever. I have always had a problem with shaving. I nick my ankles. I just have a really hard time finding the right razor. Athena Club, seriously, y'all, is the very best razor I've ever had.

It's smooth. It moisturizes. I love the little magnet that you hang it off of. It feels expensive when it's really not. Ready to upgrade your shaving experience? Switch to the best razor on the market and show your skin you care with Athena Club.

Head over to athenaclub.com to get their already affordable razor kit for 30% off with code BURIEDBONES at checkout. You can also find Athena Club razors at your local Target store. Trust me, you won't look back. Happy shaving. Experience the glamour and danger of the roaring 20s from the palm of your hand.

In June's Journey, you have the chance to solve a captivating murder mystery and reveal deep-seated family secrets. Use your keen eye and detective skills to guide June Parker through this thrilling hidden object mystery game. June's Journey is a mobile game that follows June Parker, a New York socialite living in London. Play as June Parker and investigate beautifully detailed scenes of the 1920s

while uncovering the mystery of her sister's murder. There are twists, turns, and catchy tunes, all leading you deeper into the thrilling storyline. This is your chance to test your detective skills. And if you play well enough, you could make it to the detective club.

There, you'll chat with other players and compete with or against them. June needs your help, but watch out. You never know which character might be a villain. Shocking family secrets will be revealed, but will you crack this case? Find out as you escape this world and dive into June's world of mystery, murder, and romance. Can you crack the case? Download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android.

Discover your inner detective when you download June's Journey for free today on iOS and Android. That's June's Journey. Download the game for free on iOS and Android. Here's where things start to turn a little bit, I think, for Mary. In the late 1930s, so this is probably when she is

19, maybe 20, there is a well-connected businessman whose name is John Anderson, and he sees Mary, and he comes to her with an offer. He is a business owner of a large downtown tobacco store, and he's known, you know, Phoebe for several years and has gotten to know Mary, and he's

We think that at one point Phoebe maybe was a domestic worker in John's house. This is what the author Daniel Stashower thinks. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that the owner of this tobacco store goes to Mary and says, can you be a clerk in my shop?

The speculation is maybe this is romantic, like he wants to be closer to her. But I think the local newspapers eventually come to the conclusion that she is going to attract male clientele to this shop just by having her behind the counter. Men are going to want to come.

solicit, you know, to give business to this man. And that's what happens. It works. She attracts a lot of customers to this store. Men are so simple. I mean, seriously. She's not even walking advertisement for the tobacco store. She is just kind of advertisement herself for

And these men are drawn to her like a magnet. And now they're in the tobacco store. And if they want to interact with her, they're having to buy the products. And she's going up to this clerk, you know. And, okay, so we've got the boarding house, transient population. Now there's also the tobacco shop, which in some ways that's transient with the customers. But I'm sure there's regular customers there.

and probably even more regular customers who are going to this store because Mary is inside. You got it. You nailed it. So now at home, when she's asleep, she's exposed to a lot of people, and then at work, she's exposed to a lot of people.

So here's the interesting thing about John Anderson's tobacco shop. He is so close to City Hall that there are all sorts of powerful people who come in there looking for Mary and cigars. So we're talking about reporters and editors, but also there are clients who become really legendary authors, Washington Irving and Edgar Allan Poe.

Have you read either of these? I've read both, but have you read either of these? I don't want you to feel silly. I can already see you look red. You know, well, I, of course, am familiar with Edgar Allan Poe. Now, a little bit of a confession is that going through school, you know, English classes was assigned all sorts of classic books to read, right? Did I read them? No. No.

I BS my way with whatever paper I had to write as a result, you know, because I just got so bored. I couldn't deal with these classic novels. But at least one of those authors I at least have heard of.

Okay, well, Washington Irving, I know you have heard his stories because he was the one who wrote The Legend of Sleepy Hollow. Headless Horseman? Yes. Now, Washington Irving also wrote about someone I know you've heard of, Rip Van Winkle. That was his story also, the man who falls asleep and I don't remember how many years later. Yeah.

He wakes up and everything's changed and he's old. Yeah, I definitely have some memory of Rip Van Winkle. But again, you know, the details escape me. Well, I'll tell you, Edgar Allan Poe makes Mary Rogers legendary. It's not necessarily what happens to her. It's that he turns her story into one of his most famous stories. And I'll tell you about that in a little bit. But...

The big deal is you've got Washington Flippin' Irving and Edgar Allan Poe coming by the shop.

And you've got politicians, you've got reporters and editors. And this is where really the society pages comes in because you've got these reporters and editors coming in from City Hall. They see this beautiful girl. She's very charming. And they kind of want to keep up with her. This creates a huge boom in business for the tobacco shop. So John Anderson's very pleased. Now this is where Mary's life gets a little complicated. It sounds by her own choice here.

So, you know, the penny papers, as they were called, followed Mary. Penny papers were sort of like tabloids. I guess they would say that were the tabloids for today. Different than the penny dreadfuls, which were in England, and those were sort of really torrid crime stories. Penny papers were, you know, like tabloids, and they looked like tabloid papers. And Mary is sort of gossiped about, but in a respectful way. They just, people were enamored with her.

So Mary gets paid a decent paycheck, which she's very excited about. We have countless businessmen stopping by to gawk at Mary. People are writing poems about her. The press is covering her. And she's really not doing anything significant except being attractive and being charming and standing behind the counter at this tobacco shop. Things change because within a few months of starting this new job,

Mary vanishes. And the reporters who came to the shop noticed, of course, they're coming to the shop for her, they notice that she's gone. And because they're reporters, they start speculating. And the stories about where Mary Rogers, the beautiful cigar girl, has gone start popping up in the penny papers. And, you know, it's really hard to separate fact from speculation. Newspaper reporters do that. Sometimes they speculate.

And there was one paper that reported that Mary's mother had found a suicide note on the day that Mary went missing from the tobacco shop. And there were other papers that said she ran off with various male suitors. Now, before you start digging into this, I will tell you, she comes back a few days later. And she says, listen, I can take off whenever I want to take off. I don't have to answer anybody's questions anymore.

But she said, I went to go visit some family members. It was innocuous. It was no big deal. And her mother, Phoebe, and her boss, John Anderson, back up the story. But the penny papers kind of stay on it. And they keep saying Mary disappeared. And it was all a publicity stunt to benefit the cigar store. And, you know, this seems sort of disturbing. But the reason I'm telling you this is

One, she sounds like we'll go off the radar for at least a few days at a time, but it also sounds like she told her mom and her boss where she was going. And number two, this is how focused the papers are, is they are gossiping about a young woman who is standing behind the counter of a tobacco shop. So all of this is building up to how important Mary Rogers is to people in downtown Manhattan in the late 1830s.

Yeah, this is such a bizarre set of circumstances. Do you have any understanding if Mary actually enjoyed this notoriety and this attention? Or I can see where maybe early on she's enjoying it, but then as her life is being impacted, it may be something that she no longer wants that type of attention. So I'm kind of curious, as I'm assessing Mary,

and maybe who she ends up interacting with over time, you know, what her vulnerabilities are. Well, I'm glad you brought that up. I don't think she likes the attention because she ends up quitting the job within a year of all of this happening. People reporting on her, reporters following her around. Now these reporters wanting to know, who were you with? What were you doing? Of course, we know in the 1830s, being with a man and not

being married and spending the night with somebody would have been a huge no-no, and certainly they would have been judgmental of her in the papers. This is a young woman who was exposed to a celebrity life without the benefit of the money and the power. I mean, you know, they are just gossiping about her, and she got tired of it, and she quit Johnny Anderson's shop.

And it sounds like just went back to helping her mom at the boarding house. She always lived at the boarding house. And now we're going to talk about the social life of the boarding house, which is, I will use the word robust to explain the social life. And so that's where we stand. She said, I've had enough. I quit. And she goes back to the boarding house and helping her mom out there. Yeah. And it does inform me a lot about Mary's personality. She, with all these politicians and other

higher social status individuals in the area. Because of, you know, her notoriety, her attractiveness, she possibly could have linked up with some man that has high social status and still enjoy, you know, take advantage of that man's affluence, his own social life, and you

She doesn't do that. You know, she stays as a clerk at the tobacco store and then ultimately goes back to mom in the boarding house. So she is definitely kind of shunning that high-profile life is the way I'm seeing it. And I'll tell you what's interesting about Mary. You're spot on.

No one says she's ever dated any of these people from the cigar shop. She is not dating, you know, Edgar Allan Poe, Washington Irving, any of these wealthy businessmen, not even secretly having affairs with because I think those would have been exposed after what happens happens.

She is, however, dating people who are lodgers at the boarding house. And these are not wealthy men. These are not prominent men. They do not have jobs that most people would think these days were very prominent jobs, but they seem steady. But she was involved with, it looks like, off and on at least three different lodgers in

a couple of them while they're living in the same boarding house at the same time. So now things get dicey, I think, once we learn about the social life here. Well, yeah, these three different lodgers, and if they're aware of each other, now you set up this, almost this lover's triangle. Even though she may not be dating them at the same time, it's...

human nature to be jealous of your ex being with somebody else. And so now you have these men who both had dated Mary as the way I'm hearing this, living in the same boarding house where Mary is working. So this ends up elevating the kind of the emotional backdrop to this boarding house and what Mary is being confronted with on a daily basis.

I agree. And we're going to get to talking about three men. One is a non-starter as far as I'm concerned. He's a sailor named William Kycuk.

And he kind of comes in and out. And it sounds like her mother, Phoebe, says she dated William, but that was the end of it and he hit the road. So we've got this one man who doesn't really seem to be involved, but we are going to have to focus in on two people who are in the boarding house at the same time, but they have kind of two different types of relationships with Mary.

One is a man named Alfred Cromelin, and the author, Daniel Stashower, thinks that Alfred would have been a clerk in a law office at some point. And then there's a guy named Daniel Payne. Daniel is a tenant in the boarding house, and he earns a living. This is interesting, Paul. I could see you doing this. He earns a living cutting cork

Cork for bottles and jugs. This is a good job. It sounds like fun to me. I like kind of like mindless jobs where the only thing you have to worry about is cutting a finger off. I like that kind of gig. And somehow you're putting that job on me. I don't know why. I just pictured you being able to do that in the early 1800s, cutting cork. It sounds relaxing to me, but maybe not. I'm glad you have such a high opinion of me. Yeah.

Well, these are the two men who are vying for her attention, and it sounds like she's really enamored with Daniel Payne. The problem with Daniel Payne is even though people say he is charming and clearly Mary likes him, he is jovial. It sounds like he is a heavy drinker and has been sort of described as a full-blown alcoholic. And I had wondered immediately, because as I've already told you, something happens to Mary, and it's a mystery.

And I wonder if Daniel gets jealous because not even if she's sleeping with other people, but she's so attractive and she gets so much attention from men who she doesn't even seem to bat an eye at that any man who is an alcoholic, who's obviously dealing with

something using alcohol if this is somebody who would be jealous no matter how she reacts to men? So I'm not necessarily going to correlate Daniel's alcoholism directly with jealousy. But what I would correlate is we know that under the influence of alcohol, behaviors change. And so just depending on how this

story develops, it is a characteristic of Daniel that I'll pay attention to, even though maybe witnesses or friends or co-workers will vouch for his character. But what is his character under the influence after a long night of drinking? You know, is it possible that he could act out in a certain way, be upset about something that normally his inhibitions would prevent him from acting out that way? So just noted. Well, and here we'll have a little bit of

I don't know if that's what you'll call it that, but I'm going to give you a scenario and you can tell me about both of these men and their reactions. It doesn't really involve Mary's reaction as far as I'm concerned. So she's dated the sailor. He's gone. She's dated Alfred, who is a law clerk in an office, and she is really interested in Daniel.

So the people left in the boarding house who she's been involved with are Alfred and Daniel. Mary is now 21, and we're in 1841, and this is where everything starts to happen.

So the situation in the household is complicated because you have two men who are very interested in her, and she is only interested at this point in one, in Daniel. Daniel Stashower writes in his book, and I just want to quote this because I think he does a good job really summarizing it. By June of 1841...

Alfred's festering resentments, this would be towards Daniel and Mary, come to a crisis. Returning from work one evening, Alfred found Payne, Daniel Payne, and Mary engaged in what Alfred said was unseemly intimacies in the front parlor, which God knows could have been like holding hands. I have no idea what he is describing as that, but in the front parlor, maybe they were making out. And Alfred drew himself into an indignant rage,

and began lecturing Daniel Payne on the duties and obligations of a gentleman, Daniel Payne first responded with a grin and then a sneer, which, of course, just pissed off Alfred in his tirade. So you've got one guy who's sort of taunting because he's got the girl, and you've got the other guy when you have this author rebutting

describing it as an indignant rage, which I'm assuming is not physical, but just ripping into both of them. Yeah, this is like what I said before. In some ways, this is the dynamics of this lover's triangle. Now, it looks like Mary and Daniel are together, and Alfred's the ex. But Alfred is jealous, and he expresses his jealousy directly. So it indicates a certain temperament of Alfred.

But right now, you know, that's all we've got. Yeah, yeah, I can't make any predictions. To me, right on the surface, Daniel, knowing that something happens to Mary, Daniel doesn't have, let's say, motive at this point in time to do anything to Mary because he's got Mary, but Alfred doesn't. That's typically that spurned lover is the one that will act out, you

you know, this is the stalking type of personality, or this is the one that, you know, if I can't have her, you can't have her either. So let's see how this develops. Well, what's interesting about Alfred is he always describes Mary Rogers as honorable and, you know, a woman who would never sleep around and just someone who, you know, deserved to be courted. He sort of, in some ways, idolized her, it sounds like.

later on. That's how he has been describing her. What I noticed is that he doesn't seem to be chastising her. It is Daniel. So I thought, well, I mean, you would think Daniel would be Alfred's focus. If somebody ends up dead here, why not kill Daniel? If Alfred is responsible for anybody dying, get him out of the way, and then he could have Mary to himself. But as we know, because this is a very well-known case, it's Mary who ends up dead later on.

Sure. You know, and that's one possible scenario. Alfred ends up killing Daniel just because Daniel was the one that won Mary's heart. You know, maybe at some point, Alfred confronts Mary, expresses that he would like to have her back, and she says, "We're never getting back together." Now, do you have a fit of rage type of scenario where Alfred would hurt Mary?

I had wondered, I don't have information on how long this, whatever it was, between Mary and Alfred had gone on.

And I was going to say, well, doesn't it matter? It doesn't sound like they were together for years and it's described as dating. But then I sort of channeled Paul Holes in my head and said, it doesn't matter if it was, you know, one date. It's what's happening in Alfred's head. Is that what you would respond to me? It's his delusion or whatever is happening, his perception. In assessing, you know, criminal behavior, you have to look at it from the offender's mindset, right?

And of course, the external aspects are something we can observe. But the offender has his own experiences, his own biases, his own motives. And oftentimes, that internal part of the offender is what ultimately gets expressed during the violence. That's where

You're sitting here and you're giving me a lot of victimology about Mary. And, you know, I'm speculating about, okay, she's got this pseudo lover's triangle set up inside of the boarding house, which is a common scenario, which ultimately ends in homicide. But I don't know anything about what happened to Mary during the violence. That's uncanny.

upcoming. And my opinion may completely change going, well, hold on here. You know, I'm not entirely sure that whoever killed Mary is going to be somebody that Mary even knew. So I'm very interested in learning the details once you get to that point about what happened to Mary.

We'll get there. We'll get there. Simmer down, Pepper, as my friend would say. You're just teasing this out. I know. I'm sorry. Okay. So after this confrontation where Alfred essentially tries to rip apart

Verbally, Daniel, with Mary standing there watching, he says either they kick him out or he decides to leave, but he's out. He packs up his stuff and he leaves. He turns to Mary and says, I still have feelings for you.

that if you ever need anything, I will be there. I am committed to you. And this guy you're involved with is a jerk and a loser. And then he leaves. So Alfred is gone. And this is in June of 1841.

So probably you have no comment on the fact that he left. I mean, it takes a danger, I suppose, you know, a daily danger out of the house for her right now. Well, I wouldn't even go that far. You know, Alfred leaves the boarding house, but that doesn't mean he is completely not capable of physically coming back

into Mary's world, you know, he's probably just moving somewhere else locally. He's got a job. He's a law clerk, you know, so he's probably found another residence. But that distance also gives Alford some safety in his mind that if he were to commit a crime, he's not present within the boarding house at the time. He is now separated, you know, so there's

It'll be interesting to see how this continues on. But Alfred's not out of the picture in terms of somebody that could do Mary harm just because he's left the boarding house, I think is fundamentally what I'm trying to say. So this happens in June where Alfred leaves and where things go terribly wrong for Mary Rogers is July 25th. So, you know, about a month later, 1841.

So this is during the day. Mary stops by Daniel, her boyfriend's room in the boarding house, and she says, I'm going to go see my aunt, who is a woman named Mrs. Downing. She says to Daniel, I'll be at my aunt's house for that evening and that they can meet once.

when she's done for the evening so Daniel can walk her home for safety, because remember where we are, downtown New York. He says, I'm happy to walk you home. I would like that. And she said, that's great. So she says, meet me at the specific intersection at this time. And that night when he shows up at the meeting time, she's not there. It is pouring down rain. And Daniel thinks that Mary decided to go ahead and stay with her aunt until the bad weather passed.

So, he hangs out, I'm sure gets soaking wet, and eventually he gives up and he leaves. And I think he's just crossing his fingers that she's going to find her way home, or when it clears out, maybe he'll go back to this intersection to walk her home. She never comes home. And by the next afternoon, because she is still missing, the mother and Daniel are worried.

Daniel looks all over the city for Mary, and he goes to the aunt's house where she finds out that Mary never even made it there. And to get things more complicated, the aunt says, "'We never made any plans. I don't know what you're talking about. She wasn't supposed to come over here.'" The next thing we know, the mother, Phoebe, and Daniel place an ad in the papers the next day saying, "'Mary Rogers is missing.'"

And the papers respond. And that is that. That is the last time we hear from Mary Rogers. The most important part of what I'm hearing is Mary is telling Daniel, somebody she seems to be very much emotionally connected to and trusting, and is actually asking him to come meet her to walk her home. Yet the aunt's saying, we had no plans. Why would Mary say, hey, I'm going to my aunt's? This is where sort of the...

The Spidey sense is starting to kick in a little bit about what do we really know about Mary? It almost sounds like she's using the aunt as, well, this is the reason I'm leaving. And does she have a secret? And she was going to come back, you know, to the intersection. So Daniel would just assume she came from the aunt's house. You know, why doesn't Daniel go all the way up to the aunt's house and

walk Mary home from the aunt's house if this is such a dangerous area. It's almost as if Mary is setting this up where, okay, everybody thinks I'm at the aunt's house, but I'm really going to go meet this other person. And then I will come back to the intersection and nobody will know the better.

That's what I'm reading into this right now. Now, Paul, sometimes I ask you questions to lead you down a road when I know the information, and it's a little trick. This is not the case. I am actually asking you what you think about this, and I don't know the answer. We're about to find out that Mary is no longer with us. What if Daniel is responsible? And what if he made up the aunt's story, which is why the aunt said, I have no clue why this happened. And he just made it up because...

There is no one who can say that Mary came to them and said, I'm going to go out. I'm going to meet Daniel. I'm going to go to my aunt's house first. The mom didn't confirm that. And there doesn't seem to be anybody that they've dug up, a witness who says, yeah, he was standing there with an umbrella or under an awning until whatever time. So,

Might this not be on Mary? Might this actually be a story that Daniel made up? Or would that make no sense because the aunt would immediately debunk what he was saying to begin with? Well, I think that's where the investigation and the interviews need to kind of tease that out, you know, in terms of,

At this point in time, there hasn't been anything expressed between Daniel and Mary's relationship that would indicate that Daniel had any reason to cause her harm. Now, we don't know, you know, the personal communications and interactions that led up to this particular night. So maybe something changed that we don't know about. But how does Daniel respond when he's being interviewed? And all of that is also going to be somewhat dictated by

ultimately what happened to Mary, you know, and knowing that information and then assessing Daniel's potential role. And I think you're bringing up a good point for sure. You know, Daniel is not out of suspicion under this set of circumstances. He most certainly could have made up something because he went out and caused Mary harm. He killed her and dumped her somewhere or hit her somewhere and came back and had this whole scenario set up.

So there's that, but I also have to look at it from Mary's perspective. If Daniel's telling the truth, then it kind of informs me that there's something going on with Mary that people don't know about. Let's get to what happened to Mary because it's very sad. Three days later, which is July 28th of 1841, a woman's body is discovered floating about 200 yards off the Hudson River's shore, which is near Hoboken, New Jersey.

This is a very hot summer day, and there's a recreational area nearby, and it's bustling with activity. And so this area is very accessible from Manhattan by ferry, which is an important note to know. This is not some isolated place. Everybody who had been to New York would have known about this. It doesn't take a local to know about this area, and certainly somebody could, I guess, catch the ferry or go on foot.

But 200 yards off the shore, I guess I don't know about how much floating it would do. But anyway, I guess we'll just have to kind of unfold that. But let's talk a little bit about bodies being found in the water. And already, what is the disadvantage or is there any kind of advantage to having a body found in a body of water?

a body floating and I'm gonna make the assumption that Mary's body was put into the Hudson River the night she disappeared. So roughly three days in the water. In this day and age with the type of physical evidence that we would be looking for, it's obviously not good. However, evidence can survive and I've seen it firsthand in some of my cases.

when victims' bodies have been in water for an extended period of time, and we could still recover DNA. But you also have the disadvantage of some of the blood staining, some of the blood patterns that I would use to help reconstruct the violence that happened, correlating those blood patterns with the injuries at autopsy.

that typically is going to be gone. And you potentially have some, you know, marine organisms that could be, it's just like insect activity on land. You can have marine organisms that are now attacking the body, so to speak, you know, and disrupting some of the evidence and the visual aspects that would be used. One of the advantages, sort of, is this is

not a warm body of water. This is going to be a cooler body of water. So in some ways, there's a refrigeration, and so decomposition can be slowed to a point.

But it's never good. You know, you'd rather find the body on land than floating in the water. Yeah, and it seems like this was kind of interesting. There's a group of men in the rowboat who try to recover her and do. And there's a spot that's still there, I guess, called Sybil's Cave, which is these days sealed shut. But back in the 1800s, it was an operational natural spring that was housed kind of inside a man-made grotto.

So while the area offshore was accessible, this sounds like this might have been a little, not isolated, but something that she was intentionally put there and maybe she didn't float there. But I'm also not quite 100% sure how that works. I know you're right about the cold water. A natural spring, I assume, would be cold. Yeah, you know, and I'm a little confused. She is found floating 200 yards offshore. Right.

Yeah, and this cave is 200 miles offshore. So she's floating, but it sounds like she's, maybe there's like an alcove or something that they see her in, but it doesn't sound like she was placed there. Maybe she just floated there. Yeah, and this is where I would need to be talking to experts about the waterway in terms of, okay, if her body is located at this location and she's been in the water for so long, let's say three days,

based on the currents, based on the weather that has happened, based on the maritime activities, you know, because this is New York. And I'm assuming it's, of course, not like today, but I'm assuming there's a fair amount of boating that is going up and down this river. You know, where did Mary's body initially go into the water? Would these experts be able to predict that? Because now I know Mary Lee's on foot. We don't have motor vehicles, right?

She's not in a horse-drawn carriage, as far as I know. The offender crossed paths with Mary at some point. How does the offender get Mary to the location where her body is put into the water? So, you know, that's part of what I would want to start to try to flesh out.

And that is also kind of going back to your question regarding Daniel. Did Daniel have the capability that night to be able to get Mary out to the kind of the dump site into the river and get back without anybody noticing that? And how long would that take?

Well, let me tell you about these injuries once they recover her. And you can tell me whether this is maritime activity or, you know, animals in the water. This is the way that the men who recover her say she was described as hideously bruised and waterlogged. When I tell you about the injuries, there is no doubt that violence was done upon her that is not, you know, bumping into rocks or anything like that.

it looks like she has been severely, severely beaten. So what is the water logged exactly? I'm assuming you've taken a bath and you've been in the bath for a while and you see how your fingers start to prune up. Your skin is absorbing the water as it sits in there. And then when it dries out, your skin goes back to normal. But when bodies are in the water,

Mm-hmm.

You know, that's where initially you've got these laypersons that are making their, you know, statements as to what they saw. But are they somebody that has seen what the human body looks like? This bruising, even though it sounds like this bruising is legit, but also you can see decomposition can also be misconstrued as bruising. Here's some more contemporary discussions here. A historical crime detective says that the woman's face...

was swollen and has been beaten to a pulp. Murder by gaslight, we've talked to the blogger who runs that. His story describes her as battered, and a reporter from The Herald who was on site that day says, this is a quote, "...the first look we had of her was most ghastly."

Her forehead and face appeared to have been battered and butchered to a mummy. Her features were scarcely visible. So much violence had been done to her. On her head, she wore a bonnet, light gloves on her hands with the long water fingers peering out. Her dress was torn in various portions. Her shoes were on her feet. And altogether, she presented the most awful spectacle that the eye could see.

The only way they could identify her was by what they said was her delicate feet and her clothing. That's how either she was butchered or decomposed after three days in the water or a combination of the two. Tell me she had an autopsy because I want to know what the medical people said. Yeah, and the medical people have a lot of speculation. We'll see what you agree with or not, but there's a lot happening. And I know what you're thinking about the torn dress, and they think the same thing, that this was a sex assault. Right.

Yes, I think, yeah. Disruption to our clothing is going to be something that you have to pay attention to. But also, you know, dress being torn, is it due to transport of the body? Is it due to, you know, floating clothes?

in the water and getting hung up on various objects in the water or boats coming by. And this is in the days before propellers, I'm assuming. So that's where I would want to know more about how the dress was torn. And does that look like it was done by the offender? And if it does,

then yeah, then you start saying this is likely sexually motivated crime. And, you know, everything about this is, you know, when you look at her victimology,

there appears to possibly be a greater likelihood that this is a sexually motivated crime than something else. So this is gross. Her corpse is taken ashore before she's identified, and there are curious onlookers who take sticks and poke and prod her. There's no police out there doing anything, and no organized police force. We've talked about this time period before.

So there are people on the beach who were looking at her and gossiping, who is this? What happened? So guess who comes up on this scene? Our friend Alfred Crumlin. He just happens to stumble on the scene. He's with his pal who's named Archibald Padley. Both of these guys lived, you know, with Mary Rogers in the boarding house. But I don't think Archibald and Mary were involved. They just so happened to stumble upon this scene and

And it does seem like the coincidence of a lifetime. And Alfred will later tell investigators, listen, I was looking over Hoboken. I was searching for her. You know, I wanted to find her. Daniel was looking for her. I was looking for her. So he's looking for her.

He sees her, and he's the one who ends up identifying the body because she is unrecognizable just between, as I said before, the hot weather, the water, the injuries that she already had, marine life. He says, this is Mary Rogers, and he immediately says, Mary was an honorable woman, and she

And she was wonderful. And this is a horrible tragedy. And he seems very deeply affected by her death. And that is where we are left for the end of part one. Who killed Mary Rogers?

Oh, I have so many questions. Oh, gosh. I need a week of rest to answer those questions. So you're going to make me wait a week before I get to hear the rest of the story, huh? Yes, sir. Sorry. Okay. And there's a lot of doctor-y, physician-y, medical exam-y type stuff that I have to go over. And again, speculation, and we'll just see what you think of 1841 speculation from the medical community, and it'll be interesting. Okay.

All right. Well, I can't wait to hear those details. Okay. See you in a week. Sounds good. This has been an Exactly Right production. For our sources and show notes, go to exactlyrightmedia.com slash buriedbonessources. Our senior producer is Alexis Amorosi. Research by Maren McClashan, Allie Elkin, and Kate Winkler-Dawson.

Our mixing engineer is Ben Talladay. Our theme song is by Tom Breifogel. Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, and Danielle Kramer. You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at BuriedBonesPod.

Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the race to decode the criminal mind, is available now. And Paul's best-selling memoir, Unmasked, My Life Solving America's Cold Cases, is also available now.